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johnsmith450
November 8, 2018, 9:57am Report to Moderator
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Hello, I am interested in collecting the views and opinions of identity and belonging in the EU referendum, for a survey I am doing. Should only take 5minutes and I would be very grateful.


https://s.surveyplanet.com/z-CDvszcv
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KingstonMariner
November 10, 2018, 2:30pm Report to Moderator
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Done. I'm probably an outlier being in the 55-64 age bracket, and a British patriot who's a remainer.  


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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Marinerz93
November 10, 2018, 6:35pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from KingstonMariner
Done. I'm probably an outlier being in the 55-64 age bracket, and a British patriot who's a remainer.  


How can you be a patriot if you are prepared for non elected foreign bureaucrats to make our laws and regulations especially as our government has apposed some of those regulations as they are not in our national interests.

A patriot is a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Skrill
November 11, 2018, 11:00am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Marinerz93
A patriot is a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.


I'd go even more, a Patriot also defends their nations from tyrannical government.


Tweet 316134373063806976 will appear here...
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KingstonMariner
November 11, 2018, 5:07pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Marinerz93


How can you be a patriot if you are prepared for non elected foreign bureaucrats to make our laws and regulations especially as our government has apposed some of those regulations as they are not in our national interests.

A patriot is a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.


This country isn't truly independent outside the EU. We're a pawn in the American empire. That much has been obvious since 1956 (Suez). At least we get a say in the EU, as opposed to just consuming news of meaningless American elections. Your sort of misguided patriot would just have us kowtowing to another empire.

Also a real patriot realises there is more than one way to promote the interests of your compatriots. Nationalists fail to see that. For them it's just one shibboleth of the 'independent nation state'. A 19th century myth.


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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grimsby pete
November 15, 2018, 2:56pm Report to Moderator

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Turning into a bit of a mess don't you think ?

What's going to happen next ?

Leadership vote, 2nd reforendem or even general election,

What a farce it is turning out to be.


                           Over 33 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
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Maringer
November 15, 2018, 5:41pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from grimsby pete

Leadership vote, 2nd reforendem or even general election,


Yes, at least one of those and probably all three. Some of them possibly more than once!

It was always going to be a farce, because the referendum was so stupidly conceived by Cameron and so didn't make any attempt to explain or clarify what 'Brexit' actually meant. Most people didn't have a clue what the Customs Union or Single Market meant to the economy, the difficulties leaving them or the things the EU funded in the UK but instead thought all that was involved was the inane tabloid bullet points about 'immigrants' and 'getting our money back'. I'd guess 90% of leavers didn't have any idea of what the ramifications might be - probably a similar proportion of remainers, too, for that matter.

The 'deal' was never going to be anything but a BRINO (Brexit in Name Only) because May cut her own throat by delivering Article 50 before any discussion of what Brexit actually meant, any plans were made or behind the scenes negotiations had taken place. This isn't a party political point, either, as Corbyn was apparently agitating to deliver Article 50 even sooner. Handing all the cards to the people you're trying to negotiate with is really a very bad idea.

With clowns such as Davis (who couldn't think his way out of a paper bag), Fox (somebody who previously had to resign from Government in disgrace for dishonest behaviour), Johnson (ego-maniac who cares about nothing but his own career) and 'Dover is an important port?' Raab running the show, is it really any surprise that nothing which could be considered any sort of a 'good deal' has been secured? Especially when May is so weak that she's beholden to the creationist nutjobs of the DUP, not to mention the looniest fringes of her own party.

If ever there was an example of a failing state, we're it.
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barralad
November 15, 2018, 6:00pm Report to Moderator
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I see the blame game is in full swing on Social Media and t.v.
The likes of Andrea Leadsom, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson who you couldn't keep out of the media during the Referendum campaign bottled out when the chance to lead fell practically into their laps. Leadsom even backed out of a two horse race to replace Cameron.
I just heard May say she has no regrets over calling the election in 2017. Events of the last few days show how important to her master plan a big Commons majority for the Tories was. I grudgingly admire her efforts today but she will surely go down as one of if not the worst P.M.s ever.


I have an inferiority complex-It's not a very good one though.
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LH
November 15, 2018, 6:18pm Report to Moderator

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Imagine how incompetent you must be as a Prime Minister to take that particular crown off Cameron himself who started this balderdash and disappeared to a pig farm or whereever it is he’s gone.
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grimsby pete
November 15, 2018, 6:38pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from LH
Imagine how incompetent you must be as a Prime Minister to take that particular crown off Cameron himself who started this balderdash and disappeared to a pig farm or whereever it is he’s gone.


The problem with Cameron was he was such a smug ba@tard he thought giving the country a vote to leave or stay was a big vote winner,

Never for one second did he think we would vote leave,

Then when we did he said he has had enough of politics and fooked off.

Now we hear not only him but that other pillock Blair might come back to save the world.

You have to laugh at the arrogant twits.


                           Over 33 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
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Rodley Mariner
November 15, 2018, 7:21pm Report to Moderator
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He didn't think it was a big vote winner, he thought it would end the squabbling in the Tory party and bring it back together. Going well isn't it?

Still, Brexit means Brexit, take back control, back off Brussels, no more straight bananas and if you don't support it you are a traitor and should be hanged accordingly.

Edit - you're right that Cameron was a smug, arrogant, entitled sharp object. He  carries far more blame than May for this farce as far as I'm concerned.
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Rodley Mariner
November 15, 2018, 7:26pm Report to Moderator
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Anybody think this could actually be the start of the end of the Tory party. I'm not sure I see a way they can come back together to even claim to offer any coherent sort of political offer when so many clearly loathe each other.
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LH
November 15, 2018, 7:55pm Report to Moderator

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It could well be. Imagine what the coalition of chaos headed by Ed Miliband would have been like if this is strong and stable under May.
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Manchester Mariner
November 15, 2018, 10:16pm Report to Moderator

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She's absolutely batshit mental to power on with her draft plan which has zero support.


"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
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Maringer
November 15, 2018, 10:34pm Report to Moderator
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Doesn't really have any choice though, does she?

She's stuck in the job even though she's a dead woman walking, so to speak. Losing the majority in the election which she didn't need to call ended all her authority and left absolutely no wriggle-room in the negotiations, especially as she's surrounded by mediocrities and imbeciles who are all either massively self-serving (Johnson and Gove, especially) or just there marking time until they are moved on. It's a spinning door at the DExEU. As soon as the backstop agreement was signed last year, this 'deal' was the best that could be hoped for outside of a Norway-style deal which, of course, most of the Tory brexiteers wouldn't accept.

If she wasn't so horribly useless and inept (after being the same as Home Secretary), I'd almost feel sorry for her.
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Rodley Mariner
November 15, 2018, 10:54pm Report to Moderator
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They must all have borderline (or not so borderline) sociopathic tendencies plus huge egos. May is a very wealthy woman in her 60's. If I was in her shoes then halfway through today's commons debacle I'd have said words to the effect of 'intercourse this for a game of soldiers, let's see one of you fornicators do any better' and strolled off to book a holiday.

I am genuinely struggling to see how this plays out. Good old Call me Dave.
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KingstonMariner
November 15, 2018, 10:58pm Report to Moderator
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Well what the whole thing beautifully portrays is how well we will do as an independent trading nation negotiating deals with the big powers. Little old Ireland gets one over big, powerful Britain because it's part of a big gang and we're not.

I seem to remember the Brexiteers telling us how we'll get a free trade deal without any of the ties and restrictions. All through the referendum campaign. We can be out but still have the trade benefits because 'they need us'. Well that worked out well, you flipping muppets.

Next up China and the US. That'll go well.


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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KingstonMariner
November 15, 2018, 11:28pm Report to Moderator
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And the reactions to the deal show the ludicrousness of nationalism.

British Nationalists in northern Ireland are decrying the deal because it puts their province in an advantageous economic position vis a vis the rest of the UK. They'd rather their people were worse off.

The Scottish nationalists are decrying it because they want what Northern Ireland has been given. They don't want those buggers over there to have it if they don't. 'It's not fair' they're crying.

What's the way forward? A population swap? All the SNPers go to Ulster and the Democratic Unionists move to Scotland?

How will English and Welsh nationalists react? (they're probably the same people who march down 'our streets' demanding we stand with our 'brethren' in places like Germany and Flanders* and Holland because we're all Europeans and defend our common culture against the Muslim hoards. But we don't wanna stand too close to our brethren because they want to rule us!

* probably not Wallonia though, because they speak French so they're probably lazy and want to burn our New Zealand lamb.

flipping lunatics the lot of them.


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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Maringer
November 16, 2018, 7:11am Report to Moderator
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Regarding the SNP, you can see their viewpoint. Just like Northern Ireland, they voted to remain quite solidly. They are having Brexit forced on them because of the votes of the English and the bribes/reneged promises of the Indyref campaign are still fresh in the memory. Why should the Northern Irish get a better deal than them?

The longer term plan (well, a lot shorter term than anticipated) is, of course another shot at independence for them and, considering the shower of shite blundering around in charge on this side of the border, who can really blame them?
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KingstonMariner
November 16, 2018, 9:16am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Maringer
Regarding the SNP, you can see their viewpoint. Just like Northern Ireland, they voted to remain quite solidly. They are having Brexit forced on them because of the votes of the English and the bribes/reneged promises of the Indyref campaign are still fresh in the memory. Why should the Northern Irish get a better deal than them?

The longer term plan (well, a lot shorter term than anticipated) is, of course another shot at independence for them and, considering the shower of shite blundering around in charge on this side of the border, who can really blame them?


Oh I’ve got no brief for or against the deal. I’m just pointing out where nationalism gets you. If Scotland wants what NI has got then why not England and Wales too.


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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LH
November 16, 2018, 9:25pm Report to Moderator

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Amber Rudd back in. Good grief - who votes for this lot?
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GrimRob
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Hardly anyone is going to be happy with the outcome it would seem. Ironic when all the average Leave voter wanted was a reduction in immigration. Little did they appreciate how difficult it will be to unpick the UK from the EU, and we haven't even started talking about the Repeal Bill yet! At least if we'd have had Remain 49% of people would be happy with the outcome.


'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.  
~ Alfred Lord Tennyson

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KingstonMariner
November 16, 2018, 10:18pm Report to Moderator
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Has May temporarily united the country? Brexiteers and Remainers don't like the deal.  


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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Les Brechin
December 10, 2018, 2:51pm Report to Moderator

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grimsby pete
December 10, 2018, 5:20pm Report to Moderator

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If anybody can get us out of this mess,

Please forward your idea's to the House of Commons,

Because

All those elected on both sides do not have a clue.


                           Over 33 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
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forza ivano
December 11, 2018, 8:28pm Report to Moderator

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I think there' 5 possibilities
A May knows her deal is Shiite/ shot but delays delays and delays until it's the only option versus no deal and its forced through
B we sleepwalk to no deal
C parliament takes control and forces us ,by a series of convoluted motions and votes into the softest of brexits
D probably the most likely, article 50 is delayed or the e.u . ' stops the clock' to allow us extra time to negotiate further. As the Swiss told us 12 months ago, you will be negotiating with the e.u. Until the end of time I.e. You can check out of the hotel e.u. But you ain't ever going to leave
E somehow a second referendum is forced and we stay in. IMHO this is the best outcome, but even as a staunch remainer, it's the most unsatisfactory outcome
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KingstonMariner
December 11, 2018, 8:36pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from forza ivano
I think there' 5 possibilities
A May knows her deal is Shiite/ shot but delays delays and delays until it's the only option versus no deal and its forced through
B we sleepwalk to no deal
C parliament takes control and forces us ,by a series of convoluted motions and votes into the softest of brexits
D probably the most likely, article 50 is delayed or the e.u . ' stops the clock' to allow us extra time to negotiate further. As the Swiss told us 12 months ago, you will be negotiating with the e.u. Until the end of time I.e. You can check out of the hotel e.u. But you ain't ever going to leave
E somehow a second referendum is forced and we stay in. IMHO this is the best outcome, but even as a staunch remainer, it's the most unsatisfactory outcome


A lot of Brexiteers see no problem with option B.

If that happens I'm gonna spend the rest of my life telling them 'it was all your fault'.


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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ska face
December 11, 2018, 8:39pm Report to Moderator

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  • May comes back next week with the EU having told her to bolllocks. She can’t dress up the same terrible deal
  • Deal gets voted down and GE is called
  • Article 50 extended, Labour win election and negotiate deal on their terms rather than the ridiculous red lines May has set out
  • Labour run 2nd referendum on either their deal or remain


Best case scenario.
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LH
December 11, 2018, 9:01pm Report to Moderator

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May looks set to face Tory no confidence vote according to Twitter rumours. Strong and stable. Strong and stable. Strong and stable.
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DocDock
December 12, 2018, 8:45am Report to Moderator

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Vote of no confidence is on. “...and it’s live!”



Annoyingly like a cockroach i think she’ll survive this vote tonight. Even if she does survive, surely Corbyn has to step up and call a vote of no confidence in her and her government. What an absolute clusterfuck  this whole Brexit process has been.
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forza ivano
December 12, 2018, 10:29am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from ska face
  • May comes back next week with the EU having told her to bolllocks. She can’t dress up the same terrible deal
  • Deal gets voted down and GE is called
  • Article 50 extended, Labour win election and negotiate deal on their terms rather than the ridiculous red lines May has set out
  • Labour run 2nd referendum on either their deal or remain


Best case scenario.

no way a general election is happening - Tory MPs are like turkeys, they ain't going to vote for Xmas!
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Town Monkey
December 12, 2018, 2:37pm Report to Moderator
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I think if May goes tonight or tomorrow we'll have a Brexiteer PM and No Deal looks remarkably likely.  In which case, I think we'll all live to regret it.  
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hheh2
December 12, 2018, 3:27pm Report to Moderator

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Will Grimsby get a fishing port again with no deal Brexit.


Poojah's fishy

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Town Monkey
December 12, 2018, 3:39pm Report to Moderator
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Very unlikely hheh2.  Even if we do, and I doubt it would be for a while, it won't make up for the massive losses elsewhere in the country due to the turmoil caused by falling out of the single market and the customs union.  A few days ago, I couldn't see no deal really being an option but now, who knows.
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grimsby pete
December 12, 2018, 4:16pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from hheh2
Will Grimsby get a fishing port again with no deal Brexit.


My brother in law who went to sea when we had a fishing fleet told me IF we did get our waters back WHO out of the younger generation would want to go to sea and work in those dreadful conditions that he put up with.

Good Question .


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forza ivano
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Quoted from grimsby pete


My brother in law who went to sea when we had a fishing fleet told me IF we did get our waters back WHO out of the younger generation would want to go to sea and work in those dreadful conditions that he put up with.

Good Question .


Indeed. And who would we sell our fish to? Most goes to the e.u. Who would demand access to fishing grounds in exchange for tariff fee sale of our fish to their market. There isn't any easy answers in this game no matter what fox, Davies and Johnson say
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GrimRob
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There's nothing stopping UK people fishing now. We have to compete with the other countries for quotas, but it's not as though we are excluded from the nearby fishing territories.


'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.  
~ Alfred Lord Tennyson

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Gaffer58
December 13, 2018, 6:42pm Report to Moderator
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Just tell the Germans that BMW's, Audis, Volkswagens are all going to be subject to new tariffs, see how quickly they want to do a deal then.
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arryarryarry
December 14, 2018, 4:17am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Maringer


Yes, at least one of those and probably all three. Some of them possibly more than once!

It was always going to be a farce, because the referendum was so stupidly conceived by Cameron and so didn't make any attempt to explain or clarify what 'Brexit' actually meant. Most people didn't have a clue what the Customs Union or Single Market meant to the economy, the difficulties leaving them or the things the EU funded in the UK but instead thought all that was involved was the inane tabloid bullet points about 'immigrants' and 'getting our money back'. I'd guess 90% of leavers didn't have any idea of what the ramifications might be - probably a similar proportion of remainers, too, for that matter.

The 'deal' was never going to be anything but a BRINO (Brexit in Name Only) because May cut her own throat by delivering Article 50 before any discussion of what Brexit actually meant, any plans were made or behind the scenes negotiations had taken place. This isn't a party political point, either, as Corbyn was apparently agitating to deliver Article 50 even sooner. Handing all the cards to the people you're trying to negotiate with is really a very bad idea.

With clowns such as Davis (who couldn't think his way out of a paper bag), Fox (somebody who previously had to resign from Government in disgrace for dishonest behaviour), Johnson (ego-maniac who cares about nothing but his own career) and 'Dover is an important port?' Raab running the show, is it really any surprise that nothing which could be considered any sort of a 'good deal' has been secured? Especially when May is so weak that she's beholden to the creationist nutjobs of the DUP, not to mention the looniest fringes of her own party.

If ever there was an example of a failing state, we're it.


If I asked you to give me £10 and I gave you back £5 for an ice cream would you go dancing down the road shouting "look I've been given some money for an ice cream"

Nice to see the remainers response by insulting those who want to leave the EU, what a great way to try to bring people together.
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arryarryarry
December 14, 2018, 4:24am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from ska face
  • May comes back next week with the EU having told her to bolllocks. She can’t dress up the same terrible deal
  • Deal gets voted down and GE is called
  • Article 50 extended, Labour win election and negotiate deal on their terms rather than the ridiculous red lines May has set out
  • Labour run 2nd referendum on either their deal or remain


Best case scenario.


I thought the EU have said the deal we have now been given is the only deal on offer and will not be changed.

Also who really knows what the Labour Party want, Corbyn has been anti-EU for all his political life also those 6 tests which include staying in a customs union and aligned to the single market would mean continued free movement and contributions to the EU budget. You may as well stay in the EU
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1mickylyons
December 14, 2018, 9:28am Report to Moderator
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A sorry mess and quite clear the vast majority of politicians had no idea what the General Public would do when the Referendum took place. They simply appear to be either woefully out of touch with large swathes of the electorate or more likely don`t give a fcuk? Now having received a punch on the nose they have no intention whatsoever of delivering what Joe Public voted for. I hope should the likely 2nd Referndum take place the full 33M remember how this lot have treat democracy and give them a severe pummelling and Vote Leave again in far bigger numbers.
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ska face
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Quoted from arryarryarry


I thought the EU have said the deal we have now been given is the only deal on offer and will not be changed.


Well not quite. It’s the only deal the Tories are gonna get, given that they’re determined to undercut the EU on things like workers’ rights, safety and environmental standards. The EU is a neoliberal protection racket so they’re not going to accept a European Singapore 12 miles from the continent. It’s certainly the only deal May’s going to get, as she’s been told again this morning (is that the 4th time now?), so this can-kicking can’t be allowed to continue.

Quoted Text
Also who really knows what the Labour Party want, Corbyn has been anti-EU for all his political life also those 6 tests which include staying in a customs union and aligned to the single market would mean continued free movement and contributions to the EU budget. You may as well stay in the EU


Again, not really. There are major aspects of Labour’s manifesto - like renationalising the railways - which are impossible within the EU and with May’s deal given the EU stipulations on state aid. These policies are incredibly popular with the general public (nationalising water polls about 75% in favour, iirc), but it won’t happen within the EU bosses’ club or under the party of millionaires. Corbyn’s always wanted out for reasons like these, so it’s only right that he’s given the opportunity to work out a deal on that basis.

The “freedom of movement” argument is always a (deliberately imo) vague one, where lots of concerns are all bundled into one and placed on migrants. Issues like wage suppression could be tackled with less restrictive trade union legislation. Issues with refugees from places like Libya and Syria might be alleviated if we weren’t going around blowing these poor fucckers’ countries to dust, just a thought.


Anyway, May’s coming back empty handed AGAIN, so we’ll see what happens from here.
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MarinerBen
December 14, 2018, 10:45am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Gaffer58
Just tell the Germans that BMW's, Audis, Volkswagens are all going to be subject to new tariffs, see how quickly they want to do a deal then.


Increase tariffs on imported vehicles, and reduce tax on UK manufactured models. We need to start buying British and stop sending out money abroad. I'm thinking Jaguar next if they don't abandon us.
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grimsby pete
December 14, 2018, 12:40pm Report to Moderator

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I was looking at who pays what and how much they get  out of the E U budget

We are one that pays more and 18 yes 18 get more out than they put in.


Well I for one can think of lots of ways we can spend our money on rather than give it away,

Awaits Marringer  to come back with a six page explanation of why its better to stay in.

Also the more I listen to Tony Blair who keeps coming up with his views the more I want to leave.

Leave now without a deal and keep the £39 billion


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GrimRob
December 14, 2018, 1:34pm Report to Moderator

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It's too simple to say we pay in x amount and get y back. It's impossible to quantify the benefit of being in the EU and how good a value it represents. I think our net contribution is less than 0.5% of our GDP so although the amount of money sounds a lot it's only a very small slice of the pie.


'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.  
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grimsby pete
December 14, 2018, 2:31pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from GrimRob
It's too simple to say we pay in x amount and get y back. It's impossible to quantify the benefit of being in the EU and how good a value it represents. I think our net contribution is less than 0.5% of our GDP so although the amount of money sounds a lot it's only a very small slice of the pie.


Well the £11 billion or whatever it is now could be spent on looking after our own people that are in need rather than giving it to 18 other countries.


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GrimRob
December 14, 2018, 3:54pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from grimsby pete


Well the £11 billion or whatever it is now could be spent on looking after our own people that are in need rather than giving it to 18 other countries.


You're assuming that everything else will remain the same except the 11 billion will be saved. Even if that were true it's barely going to make a dent on government spending or paying off the national debt.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html


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ska face
December 14, 2018, 5:01pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from grimsby pete


Well the £11 billion or whatever it is now could be spent on looking after our own people that are in need rather than giving it to 18 other countries.


Can never get my head around this lazy way of thinking. Like Rob said, you can’t reduce the argument to a simple “we pay x, they get y” statement.

Look at the NHS for example. Almost 6% of NHS staff are EU nationals from outside the UK, about 63,000 people. The UK benefits from their labour and expertise without having spent a single penny on their schooling or training until they walked into the country. How much does it cost to train a doctor or a nurse or school and raise someone that now comes and pays taxes in the UK? Try amount that times 63,000. THAT’S the benefit of being in the EU, as that money saved CAN be spent “looking after our own”, as people like to say.

And that’s just one tiny example from an innumerable amount.

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grimsby pete
December 14, 2018, 7:49pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from GrimRob


You're assuming that everything else will remain the same except the 11 billion will be saved. Even if that were true it's barely going to make a dent on government spending or paying off the national debt.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html


Sorry Rob you will have to explain  that clock to me because it doe not make any sense  its just a lot of figures going up and up,

Plus the % thing do not tally up when you look at other countries figures.


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GrimRob
December 14, 2018, 10:53pm Report to Moderator

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It shows the total debt of each country. Here's one just for the UK which shows the eye-watering amount of debt.

https://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/unitedkingdom

We're living totally beyond our means in this country and it's a struggle to even keep up with the interest payments on our debt. With the added problem of an aging population, immigration is required just to keep taxes down on those who do work.

Your 11bn, even if it magically turns up in the chancellor's war chest, and everything else someone is unaffected, is very unlikely to make much appreciable difference to real people.


'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.  
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grimsby pete
December 15, 2018, 1:06pm Report to Moderator

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I understand the national debt part Rob it was the % bit at the end that confused me,

China has a similar debt to us but their % was way lower than ours,

Would be pleased if somebody can explain that bit,

Seeing all countries are billions and billions in the red I don't think it matters if we spend more than we earn.

Where is all this money owed to ? the pile must be way beyond the moon by now if you stack it all on top of each other.


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GrimRob
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China's debt is only 14% of their GDP, ours is 94%. In theory, we can pay it back with economic growth, something that is very difficult to sustain indefinitely, especially if we do things like leaving the EU and why no government ever tackles the issue of immigration (one of the easiest ways to get growth is just to increase your working age population). We haven't recovered from the last recession in 2008, the next one could be a good deal worse.


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grimsby pete
December 15, 2018, 1:55pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from GrimRob
China's debt is only 14% of their GDP, ours is 94%. In theory, we can pay it back with economic growth, something that is very difficult to sustain indefinitely, especially if we do things like leaving the EU and why no government ever tackles the issue of immigration (one of the easiest ways to get growth is just to increase your working age population). We haven't recovered from the last recession in 2008, the next one could be a good deal worse.


Got it now Rob thanks.

The old grey cells are disappearing and not been replaced now.


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Maringer
December 15, 2018, 3:59pm Report to Moderator
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Bear in mind that approximately a quarter of the national debt is actually the £435 billion created by QE which is owed to the Bank of England. Who owns the Bank of England? Well, it's the UK government! One part of the UK government 'owes' over £400 billion to another part of the government. Is it really possible to owe yourself money? How many know that the interest paid on the bonds created during QE goes to pay off the national debt!

Another thing to recall is that the UK national debt is denominated in Sterling. The UK government is the sole issuer of Sterling (although they authorise UK banks to create Sterling) so we can never run out of money. The countries that people use as scare stories (Zimbabwe, Venezuela etc) about inflation don't borrow in their own currency - they borrow in other currencies over which they have no control (usually USD). When we need to pay interest on debt in Sterling, we can just create the money to do so and the only place it can then ultimately be spent is the UK.

Finally, who owns the debt is important. About half is owned by UK institutions, banks, pension funds and individuals. The interest paid is then retained in the UK. It also provides a reliable investment opportunity for pension funds and the like.

The Tory justification for austerity in 2010 was entirely spurious. If your national debt gallops out of control, you've got something to be concerned about. Ours didn't (quite), despite the financial crisis. The fact that the UK government is selling long term gilts at rates effectively below inflation is very telling - investors are basically willing to lose money to keep a reliable income stream from the interest.
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grimsby pete
December 15, 2018, 5:38pm Report to Moderator

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Thanks Maringer very interesting.


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ginnywings
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The Tory party always have and always will tear themselves apart over Europe. Pig face Cameron thought to himself " i know what to do, i will give the electorate a referendum, as they are bound to vote for us to stay in, therefore shutting up the Tory Euro sceptics, unite the party, and strengthen my position as leader, while strengthening the Tory party's power in office". What could possibly go wrong?

"They voted to leave you say"? Oops! "Where's the exit door"?

"I've just got time to throw this hand grenade over my shoulder on the way out"

"Theresa May caught it did she; Isn't she a staunch remainer"?  

Never mind, Boris and Rees will save the party and the country, when the conditions are more conducive to their political ambitions that is. Not yet mind, not until the make weights have been laid asunder by Brexit.

All the while, the country is suffering. Record homelessness, universal credit decimating already desperate people, and the only growth seems to be in the bank accounts of the elite. Food banks being the only other growth area. At least we are getting rid of those pesky foreigners at home and abroad.

Rule Britania!
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Mrs Doyle
December 16, 2018, 5:46am Report to Moderator
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This guy nails it for me as one of the "poor Basturds" this is exactly how I see it.



https://www.facebook.com/JonathanPieReporter/videos/2186117708277471/
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FishOutOfWater
December 17, 2018, 1:19pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from MarinerBen


Increase tariffs on imported vehicles, and reduce tax on UK manufactured models. We need to start buying British and stop sending out money abroad. I'm thinking Jaguar next if they don't abandon us.


In case you're unaware,  Jaguar/Land Rover is owned by the Indian company Tata

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grimsby pete
December 17, 2018, 7:23pm Report to Moderator

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Just buy cars that are made in our country  simple  


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Marinerz93
December 19, 2018, 8:32am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Maringer
Bear in mind that approximately a quarter of the national debt is actually the £435 billion created by QE which is owed to the Bank of England. Who owns the Bank of England? Well, it's the UK government! One part of the UK government 'owes' over £400 billion to another part of the government. Is it really possible to owe yourself money? How many know that the interest paid on the bonds created during QE goes to pay off the national debt!

Another thing to recall is that the UK national debt is denominated in Sterling. The UK government is the sole issuer of Sterling (although they authorise UK banks to create Sterling) so we can never run out of money. The countries that people use as scare stories (Zimbabwe, Venezuela etc) about inflation don't borrow in their own currency - they borrow in other currencies over which they have no control (usually USD). When we need to pay interest on debt in Sterling, we can just create the money to do so and the only place it can then ultimately be spent is the UK.

Finally, who owns the debt is important. About half is owned by UK institutions, banks, pension funds and individuals. The interest paid is then retained in the UK. It also provides a reliable investment opportunity for pension funds and the like.

The Tory justification for austerity in 2010 was entirely spurious. If your national debt gallops out of control, you've got something to be concerned about. Ours didn't (quite), despite the financial crisis. The fact that the UK government is selling long term gilts at rates effectively below inflation is very telling - investors are basically willing to lose money to keep a reliable income stream from the interest.


Interesting points, how would staying in the EU effect our debt with the EU plans of 2020

1. All EU countries to adopt the Euro
2. No rebate
3. No veto on anything including the money demanded from each member state
4. Contributions and control of our Forces to the EU Army that some people claimed would never be established.
5. Loss of embassies around the world as they are replaced by an EU one and EU foreign policy


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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ska face
December 19, 2018, 9:01am Report to Moderator

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You got a source for all of that?
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Rodley Mariner
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flipping scary how shite like that gets trotted out unquestioningly and starts to become 'fact'. Just utter balderdash.
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Maringer
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No existing EU member is going to be forced to join the Euro. In fact, with the way it is currently structured, you'd be crazy to join. You can't have a currency union without fiscal transfers between states (as they have in the US) because, if you do, the poorer areas lose out because their currency is overvalued and the wealthy areas benefit from an undervalued currency. The ECB (which is not the EU) has screwed over the likes of Greece and Spain, but will soon discover they can't do the same to Italy who are one of the largest economies in the world (not to mention the main EU manufacturing competitor to Germany). If they want to save the Euro, they will have to change policy. Note, however, that the EU and the Euro are not the same thing - we could quite happily have remained in the EU without ever joining the Euro.

As for your other points, we have the veto (until we leave), so can veto anything you say is going to happen:

Cancel the rebate? Nope, we'll veto that.
Cancel the ability to veto? Nope, we'll veto that.
Set up an EU army? Veto.
In some states, an EU embassy would be a decent money saving ploy but I can't see it being favoured because of the 'soft power' having an embassy gives the UK in many countries. The availability of a diplomatic presence provides back channels to resolve issues and attempt to influence policy. Not to mention, where else would our spooks operate from if we lost the embassies!

Most of your anti-EU arguments are against an EU which doesn't exist at present and couldn't exist if we remained a member and didn't vote for the changes to enable them.

If you want to leave the EU to regain complete sovereignty, then fair enough, that's a reasonable argument. You just have be honest enough to accept that it will mean we are a lot poorer because of it in the future. East European countries are clamouring to join the world's largest, wealthiest and most successful trading bloc. There's a good reason for that.
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Marinerz93
December 19, 2018, 5:33pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from ska face
You got a source for all of that?


Interesting points, how would staying in the EU effect our debt with the EU plans of 2020

1. All EU countries to adopt the Euro - Valdes Dombrovskis, EU Commissioner for the Euro and Social Dialogue, told France 24 that all member states of the European Union have to join the Eurozone eventually. He said: “That's the ultimate goal. If you look at the Treaty, all member states excluding Denmark are actually obliged to join the Euro. When the UK joined the EU it didn't say never, the same as 5 other countries
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/fi.....-adopt-the-euro.html


2. No rebate - The EU’s Budget Commissioner has confirmed that Britain would lose its budget rebate in the highly unlikely scenario that the UK stays in the EU. Gunther Oettinger made it clear that the UK would not keep the “mother of all rebates” if it held a second referendum and decided to stay in the EU: Last time, as part of the 2014-2020 budget negotiations but the mechanisms being put in place will mean the rebate will be dropped

3. No veto on anything including the money demanded from each member state - 12 September 2018 in his annual state of the union address, Jean Claude Juncker said there is a proposal to abolish EU member countries' vetoes on certain tax and foreign policy issues.

4. Contributions and control of our Forces to the EU Army that some people claimed would never be established. - PESCO The Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO) is the part of the European Union's (EU) security and defence policy (CSDP) in which 25 of the 28 national armed forces pursue structural integration. Based on Article 42.6 and Protocol 10 of the Treaty on European Union, introduced by the Treaty of Lisbon in 2009, PESCO was first initiated in 2017. The initial integration within the PESCO format is a number of projects planned to launch in 2018, have you heard of mission creep, you'll understand where things go when Military's get involved

5. Loss of embassies around the world as they are replaced by an EU one and EU foreign policy - More than 50 European Union embassies have opened across the world since the Lisbon Treaty came into force, Mats Persson, director of the Open Europe think tank, said the new EU embassies would, for "all practical purposes", take over the job of representing Britons on the world stage. "Common EU embassies means that Britain can be overruled on crucial diplomatic matters, such as on how to respond to human rights abuses in a conflict-ridden country,"

It is all encapsulated in the Lisbon Treaty -  A more Federal EU with less sovereignty and more power transferred to the EU, basically you'll do what the un-elected bureaucrats decide is right for us, and it'll cost far more than we would ever stand to lose under a hard Brexit

We were warned of the EU plans for an EU army it is now happening, we were warned about EU embassys there are over 50 now. We were warned that the EU is becoming more and more federal and we are seeing more and more power transferred to the EU as countries become less sovereign.

Scary excrement indeed, is a Federal EU good for Britain. Especially when you have the likes of Verhofstadt and Juncker at the driving wheel



Veto you say






Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Marinerz93
December 19, 2018, 5:40pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Rodley Mariner
flipping scary how shite like that gets trotted out unquestioningly and starts to become 'fact'. Just utter balderdash.




EU Army was balderdash

EU embassy's where balderdash

Sometimes you have to look past the balderdash to know what the time is



Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Marinerz93
December 19, 2018, 5:59pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Maringer


Most of your anti-EU arguments are against an EU which doesn't exist at present and couldn't exist if we remained a member and didn't vote for the changes to enable them.

If you want to leave the EU to regain complete sovereignty, then fair enough, that's a reasonable argument. You just have be honest enough to accept that it will mean we are a lot poorer because of it in the future. East European countries are clamouring to join the world's largest, wealthiest and most successful trading bloc. There's a good reason for that.


More power transferred to a 2020 Federal EU under the Lisbon treaty will have more power to do what it wants and we'll end up paying more, either way we will be poorer which ever angle you are coming from. The difference for me is we elect who we want to bring about the changes we want and we can get rid of those who effect our lives in a negative way, can we do this with the EU commission, simply no. EU laws and regulations will be passed and we'll have no veto if we remain pretty much as they do now. We oppose so many of their reforms that aren't good for the UK but they still get passed. Again I point to the EU Army, you know the one you said will never happen.

How many of these extremely poor Eastern European countries will be paying into the EU, the reason why they are clambering to join is the money they will get, a simple fact. Of the current 27 EU countries how many pay in 5, 10 maybe, lets talk about France and their rebate of £10 Billion under CAP, how much do they pay in again. Who do you think they will milk for more money.

Verhofstadt and Junker are the drivers behind all this and their plans of a EU Army and EU embassy's all came to fruition we know some of what they are planning next and I'll guess we'll only have to wait another year or so to see if their other plans come to fruition as well, remember we were warned before and people opposed it and argued against but they went full steam and now they have them. What will they do with more transferred power in a more Federal EU.



Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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GrimRob
December 20, 2018, 4:14pm Report to Moderator

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Most of the EU countries are in NATO anyway so if they were attacked we would be obliged to come to their rescue. So in effect, there already is a combined army as we are all on the same "side" and watch one another's backs. Armies are becoming increasingly irrelevant in today's world in which you can carry out more effective attacks from afar and far less traceability.


'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.  
~ Alfred Lord Tennyson

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LH
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It should be ringing alarm bells that Vladimir Putin thinks we should press ahead with Brexit but it won’t.
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Rodley Mariner
December 20, 2018, 6:20pm Report to Moderator
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KingstonMariner
December 21, 2018, 11:11pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Gaffer58
Just tell the Germans that BMW's, Audis, Volkswagens are all going to be subject to new tariffs, see how quickly they want to do a deal then.


Yeah. That tactic's really worked hasn't it.


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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KingstonMariner
December 21, 2018, 11:11pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Maringer
Bear in mind that approximately a quarter of the national debt is actually the £435 billion created by QE which is owed to the Bank of England. Who owns the Bank of England? Well, it's the UK government! One part of the UK government 'owes' over £400 billion to another part of the government. Is it really possible to owe yourself money? How many know that the interest paid on the bonds created during QE goes to pay off the national debt!

Another thing to recall is that the UK national debt is denominated in Sterling. The UK government is the sole issuer of Sterling (although they authorise UK banks to create Sterling) so we can never run out of money. The countries that people use as scare stories (Zimbabwe, Venezuela etc) about inflation don't borrow in their own currency - they borrow in other currencies over which they have no control (usually USD). When we need to pay interest on debt in Sterling, we can just create the money to do so and the only place it can then ultimately be spent is the UK.

Finally, who owns the debt is important. About half is owned by UK institutions, banks, pension funds and individuals. The interest paid is then retained in the UK. It also provides a reliable investment opportunity for pension funds and the like.

The Tory justification for austerity in 2010 was entirely spurious. If your national debt gallops out of control, you've got something to be concerned about. Ours didn't (quite), despite the financial crisis. The fact that the UK government is selling long term gilts at rates effectively below inflation is very telling - investors are basically willing to lose money to keep a reliable income stream from the interest.


Don't go confusing people with facts. You know it only makes them madder.


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Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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KingstonMariner
December 21, 2018, 11:16pm Report to Moderator
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Why is it when you go out, it's always the Brexiteers that want to bend your ear in the pub and won't shut the intercourse up? Always moaning about 'Remoaners' who apparently won't keep quiet. Yet it's always Brexiteers that drone on* about the whole thing, like some sad illegitimate with a hobby-horse and no mates. Get over yourselves. We'd be a more successful country if you shut the intercourse up and we could all get on with each other and build the new future you bleat on about. But like my ex-wife, you won't let it lie.

* Gatwick reference unintended


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Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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Marinerz93
December 22, 2018, 10:03am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from KingstonMariner
Why is it when you go out, it's always the Brexiteers that want to bend your ear in the pub and won't shut the intercourse up? Always moaning about 'Remoaners' who apparently won't keep quiet. Yet it's always Brexiteers that drone on* about the whole thing, like some sad illegitimate with a hobby-horse and no mates. Get over yourselves. We'd be a more successful country if you shut the intercourse up and we could all get on with each other and build the new future you bleat on about. But like my ex-wife, you won't let it lie.

* Gatwick reference unintended


I would say that depends on the company you keep and the people you mix with. Maybe it's you attracting the Brexiters with you ruining their evening remoaning loudly and sapping the life out of the party, the comment about shutting the intercourse up goes both ways. A democratic vote was taken to leave the EU,  and it seems the anti democratic federalists are the ones that have no grip on the reality of a Federal Europe with more and more power as they control everything in our lives without our consent and the inability to vote the bureaucrats out or the ability to say no.

Unanimity - Unanimity Rule is a voting rule in which decisions are made based on unanimous approval of those casting votes. That is, every voter must cast the same vote. Unanimity is used in elections where there is no room for doubt or disagreement. The veto that remainers cling to is going as Juncter stated in his state of the Union speech, just like the EU army and EU embassys that he said would happen and the happless remainers said would never happen. These plans all came pre 2012 and they are now in place. The EU's final pieces of the jigsaw are coming together and they'll soon have total control in the coming years.



Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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grimsby pete
December 22, 2018, 12:43pm Report to Moderator

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I would just like to add its the remainers that keep harping on about another referendum,

I also think the EU will blink first when we get nearer the day if they think we are leaving with no deal.

Relax all will be well.


                           Over 33 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
                           65 Years following the Town
                            Ian Holloway's  Black and White Army.
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KingstonMariner
December 22, 2018, 12:59pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Marinerz93


I would say that depends on the company you keep and the people you mix with. Maybe it's you attracting the Brexiters with you ruining their evening remoaning loudly and sapping the life out of the party, the comment about shutting the intercourse up goes both ways.


Not at all. I never mention the subject when out socially, but it's always some sad sap who keeps bringing it up whether you know them or not. Brexiteers seem to think they can bend anyone's ear about it, any time. I've never approached anyone in a pub to start a conversation about Brexit and I've never had anyone approach me when I'm out and say 'this Brexit idea is bonkers innit?'

It's the Brexiteer bores who sap the life out of an evening out. They're typically the type who you can't engage in any meaningful intelligent conversation about it either - I've only ever spoken to one who you can have a proper discussion with, it's always their way or nothing. Argumentative loadmouths who have no ability to work with people who see things differently to find common ground.

They've ruined the country now they want to ruin my evening out!


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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KingstonMariner
December 22, 2018, 1:02pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from grimsby pete
I would just like to add its the remainers that keep harping on about another referendum,

I also think the EU will blink first when we get nearer the day if they think we are leaving with no deal.

Relax all will be well.


No remainer has ever brought the subject up when I'm out.


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I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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barralad
December 22, 2018, 1:32pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from grimsby pete
I would just like to add its the remainers that keep harping on about another referendum,

I also think the EU will blink first when we get nearer the day if they think we are leaving with no deal.

Relax all will be well.


I campaigned for and voted to Remain. I do not want another referendum. I just want something more concrete than the hope that Brussels will "blink first" and something less nebulous than "Relax all will be well" You know something like a Brexiteer putting an actual time limit on this broadly quoted "Well it will be horrible for a while but then it will be ace". Given that austerity has lasted eight years with no end in sight (despite what the criminally useless Maybot comes out with) I do not expect to see this promised land any time soon.


I have an inferiority complex-It's not a very good one though.
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barralad
December 22, 2018, 1:47pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Marinerz93


I would say that depends on the company you keep and the people you mix with. Maybe it's you attracting the Brexiters with you ruining their evening remoaning loudly and sapping the life out of the party, the comment about shutting the intercourse up goes both ways. A democratic vote was taken to leave the EU,  and it seems the anti democratic federalists are the ones that have no grip on the reality of a Federal Europe with more and more power as they control everything in our lives without our consent and the inability to vote the bureaucrats out or the ability to say no.

Unanimity - Unanimity Rule is a voting rule in which decisions are made based on unanimous approval of those casting votes. That is, every voter must cast the same vote. Unanimity is used in elections where there is no room for doubt or disagreement. The veto that remainers cling to is going as Juncter stated in his state of the Union speech, just like the EU army and EU embassys that he said would happen and the happless remainers said would never happen. These plans all came pre 2012 and they are now in place. The EU's final pieces of the jigsaw are coming together and they'll soon have total control in the coming years.



Am used to your views on this mate but can you tell me which part of our British bureaucracy we can vote out now? The last time I looked all civil servants were unelected...even at the top. We can vote out MEPs it just so happens that the great British electorate voted in significant numbers to be represented by a party that boasted that it wouldn't represent them. They could have joined forces with other anti federalist parties but didn't. The British people got a sh1te deal from UKIP.
Here's a challenge. Name me five laws enacted by the E.U. that either we didn't like or couldn't veto..


I have an inferiority complex-It's not a very good one though.
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grimsby pete
December 22, 2018, 2:22pm Report to Moderator

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Another thing that I think will not happen if we leave with no deal,

The EU will not have a hard border in Ireland and we wont,

So whats all the fuss been about.


                           Over 33 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
                           65 Years following the Town
                            Ian Holloway's  Black and White Army.
                                                UTMM

 
                            
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Maringer
December 22, 2018, 5:05pm Report to Moderator
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Not one to usually post videos, but I find this one amusing:

https://www.huffingtonpost.co......e0a0e4b09025ba310fce
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Marinerz93
December 22, 2018, 5:05pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Rodley Mariner


If someone is saying horrible stuff to you and you’ve been playing too much Minecraft on the iPad to articulate a witty retort, wipe a bogie hastily on their arm then sharply pull their Spider-Man underpants up as high as you possibly can until they are crying for mercy. Eventually you can let go and look down with disdain at them, snivelling and writhing around on the ground, this playtime’s victim. No words required.
Hope that helps,
Holly


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Marinerz93
December 22, 2018, 5:29pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from KingstonMariner


Not at all. I never mention the subject when out socially, but it's always some sad sap who keeps bringing it up whether you know them or not. Brexiteers seem to think they can bend anyone's ear about it, any time. I've never approached anyone in a pub to start a conversation about Brexit and I've never had anyone approach me when I'm out and say 'this Brexit idea is bonkers innit?

It's the Brexiteer bores who sap the life out of an evening out. They're typically the type who you can't engage in any meaningful intelligent conversation about it either - I've only ever spoken to one who you can have a proper discussion with, it's always their way or nothing. Argumentative loadmouths who have no ability to work with people who see things differently to find common ground.

They've ruined the country now they want to ruin my evening out!


In all your anti brexit posts I don't see anywhere were you are willing to work with people who see things differently to you.

All the times I go out, I've never heard people moaning either way, I've never had anyone bending my ear either way, the only unwanted topic that crops up time and time again is people talking about work and that's from social clubs to out on the Town. Common ground is difficult to find when something that started out as a common market turned into a political union that no vote by the people was sought to transfer power from Parliament to un-elected bureaucrats in a foreign country with their own agendas.



Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Marinerz93
December 22, 2018, 6:09pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from GrimRob
Most of the EU countries are in NATO anyway so if they were attacked we would be obliged to come to their rescue. So in effect, there already is a combined army as we are all on the same "side" and watch one another's backs. Armies are becoming increasingly irrelevant in today's world in which you can carry out more effective attacks from afar and far less traceability.


This is true and the US foots most of the bill with some countries putting in less than the 2 % of GDP they agreed to put in, hence the comments from the past three U.S. presidents have all made clear they believe the relationship has been imbalanced for too long. The Wales summit in 2014 should have settled the issue. That’s when all members agreed to spend 2 percent of their gross domestic product on defense by 2024. There is something like 29 countries in NATO and the US pay about 70% of the total costs. If the EU army is to match and replace NATO what do you think the cost will be and who is going to pay for that as it is going to cost billions. Also tell me why do we need an EU army if we have something in place that is already better and stronger than an EU army could ever be?

The major difference being  NATO - founded during the Cold War as a Western military/security alliance against the USSR and it's allies. Most of the members are still from the West and are predominantly from Europe or North America.

The calls from the likes of Verhoftstadt and Junker to control an EU army to front up to Russia is a dangerous one. Putin has already stated he feels Russia is surrounded do you think the rhetoric from Verhofstadt will calm things down, especially as he has form for implementing the things he shouts about, even if he is a nut job.

From being involved in NATO operations in the past, one thing that happens is a daily struggle for who is in charge. The UK will put a high ranking official in, France will put a high ranking official in who out ranks him by a grade then the Germans do the same to the French and so the I'm in charge game begins, a similar thing happens when the UK armed forces act as a tri-service, each service trying to out rank the other usually with the army playing all their top trumps. Then you have mission creep as the plan is changed so that the person in charge can claim he has done something for his review/CV/legacy and then others who replace them try to out do the last one and so the operation gets dragged out and the costs spiral and spiral.

From experience the cost of military operations can go from a £1 million pound for a 2 week operation of up to 60 personnel to hundreds of millions over months / years for aircraft and other transport fuel costs, hiring equipment/boats/trains/coaches/cranes for transporting troops and equipment. Then you have food costs, generator hire/fuel and maintenance costs, and servicemen get paid an allowance on top of their wage after 7 days away a certain rate depending on how many days away they have previously done, it goes up in several increments, then phone cards, washing facilities. Then you have replacement costs for when expensive equipment breaks down. I don't see any of those who barely fund the agreed 2 % paying anymore than they are doing so far.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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KingstonMariner
December 23, 2018, 10:43pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Marinerz93


In all your anti brexit posts I don't see anywhere were you are willing to work with people who see things differently to you.

All the times I go out, I've never heard people moaning either way, I've never had anyone bending my ear either way, the only unwanted topic that crops up time and time again is people talking about work and that's from social clubs to out on the Town. Common ground is difficult to find when something that started out as a common market turned into a political union that no vote by the people was sought to transfer power from Parliament to un-elected bureaucrats in a foreign country with their own agendas.



In 'real life', away from this board, I'm a much more reasonable person.


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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KingstonMariner
December 23, 2018, 10:46pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Maringer
Not one to usually post videos, but I find this one amusing:

https://www.huffingtonpost.co......e0a0e4b09025ba310fce


You're not saying people believed those lying cnuts are you?  


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I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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grimsby pete
December 24, 2018, 7:46am Report to Moderator

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When we last voted 45 years ago I like most others voted to join or stay in the common market,

It was a good choice then BUT now the E U is a different sort of animal ,

Just look at all the thousands of people that are employed in Brussels  to make our rules and laws,

We are better off out BUT  that does not mean we can not trade with them.

If we have to pay a little bit  to trade it will be worth it.

When other countries that are paying too much to stay in some of them will look at how well we are doing and the people will want out like us,

The French will be the next no matter what their president says they do not mess about when they think they are being unfairly treated.


                           Over 33 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
                           65 Years following the Town
                            Ian Holloway's  Black and White Army.
                                                UTMM

 
                            
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Marinerz93
December 24, 2018, 3:07pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from KingstonMariner


In 'real life', away from this board, I'm a much more reasonable person.


In fairness everyone I have met in 'real life' off the fishy has been spot on, so I wouldn't doubt what you say for one minute. Differing views and opinions is what makes this a great board. We all get frustrated with different topics especially when we all want or wholeheartedly believe whats is best.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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FishOutOfWater
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Quoted from barralad


I campaigned for and voted to Remain. I do not want another referendum. I just want something more concrete than the hope that Brussels will "blink first" and something less nebulous than "Relax all will be well" You know something like a Brexiteer putting an actual time limit on this broadly quoted "Well it will be horrible for a while but then it will be ace". Given that austerity has lasted eight years with no end in sight (despite what the criminally useless Maybot comes out with) I do not expect to see this promised land any time soon.


I wouldn't normally post on a political thread as there is never likely to be a meeting of minds, especially on a subject as divisive as Brexit

I have to say I accepted the decision to leave even if that isn't what I thought would be best... if the UK were unhappy with the way the EU was being run, then imho the negotiation process that we're currently witnessing should have taken place before the electorate decided to leave and not afterwards

One thing is for sure.... in or out, the government that led us to this impasse are still going to be "in charge" going forward and that above all else saddens me, because from Cameron to May, the Tories have made an absolute pig's ear of everything
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grimsby pete
December 26, 2018, 4:35pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from FishOutOfWater


I wouldn't normally post on a political thread as there is never likely to be a meeting of minds, especially on a subject as divisive as Brexit

I have to say I accepted the decision to leave even if that isn't what I thought would be best... if the UK were unhappy with the way the EU was being run, then imho the negotiation process that we're currently witnessing should have taken place before the electorate decided to leave and not afterwards

One thing is for sure.... in or out, the government that led us to this impasse are still going to be in charge and that above all else saddens me, because from Cameron to May, they've made an absolute pig's ear of everything



Although I voted to leave I agree with most of what you said Tim I thought we would be able to negociate a lot better than we have done.

If I did not know better I think the government are deliberatly getting us into a tight corner before declaring we better extend the period before we officially leave then have another referendum hoping we change the vote to remain.

To be honest I like many are that fed up with what they are doing I am not bothered now if we stay or go.



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FishOutOfWater
December 26, 2018, 7:11pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from grimsby pete


Although I voted to leave I agree with most of what you said Tim I thought we would be able to negociate a lot better than we have done.

If I did not know better I think the government are deliberatly getting us into a tight corner before declaring we better extend the period before we officially leave then have another referendum hoping we change the vote to remain.

To be honest I like many are that fed up with what they are doing I am not bothered now if we stay or go.



Think that way myself Pete... it's the political equivalent of footballers running the clock down, feigning injury and keeping the ball close to the corner flag, in the knowledge that if they can waste time at every opportunity and see things out in additioonal time, there's a replay looming

Anyway as it stands, in or out, there's nothing the likes of me or you can do about this.... May made it pretty clear in PMQs that she thinks this whole is process is some kind of laughable pantomime

Thank goodness we have football to distract us....All Town aren't we!

Btw a belated Merry Christmas to you and yours and all the best for 2019!
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grimsby pete
December 26, 2018, 8:04pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from FishOutOfWater


Think that way myself Pete... it's the political equivalent of footballers running the clock down, feigning injury and keeping the ball close to the corner flag, in the knowledge that if they can waste time at every opportunity and see things out in additioonal time, there's a replay looming

Anyway as it stands, in or out, there's nothing the likes of me or you can do about this.... May made it pretty clear in PMQs that she thinks this whole is process is some kind of laughable pantomime

Thank goodness we have football to distract us....All Town aren't we!

Btw a belated Merry Christmas to you and yours and all the best for 2019!


Have a very happy new year Tim, Town are begining to click now,

Who knows how good we can be with 2 or 3 good signings



                           Over 33 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
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KingstonMariner
December 27, 2018, 2:29am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Marinerz93


In fairness everyone I have met in 'real life' off the fishy has been spot on, so I wouldn't doubt what you say for one minute. Differing views and opinions is what makes this a great board. We all get frustrated with different topics especially when we all want or wholeheartedly believe whats is best.


Aye. We're all passionate about stuff. The one thing that unites us is Town. Actually, two things unite us. We all love our country too.

I get carried away and forget those things now and again.


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KingstonMariner
December 27, 2018, 2:38am Report to Moderator
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I was trying to find the post which said the EU Army was a bad idea because of inter-country rivalry (and the poster cited NATO exercises where French and then Germans brought along increasingly senior officers so they could take command). That's exactly why a united army is necessary. A single unified command structure (under one federal state) will make it work.

Just like the nascent 'United' States did when they rebelled against Britain. They had to create the Continental Congress and the Continental Army (and ultimately a common currency). Before that they were 13 rival states that Britain would have picked off at will. I don't think they ever put it to the electorate. The state legislatures just did it.


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Marinerz93
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Quoted from KingstonMariner
I was trying to find the post which said the EU Army was a bad idea because of inter-country rivalry (and the poster cited NATO exercises where French and then Germans brought along increasingly senior officers so they could take command). That's exactly why a united army is necessary. A single unified command structure (under one federal state) will make it work.

Just like the nascent 'United' States did when they rebelled against Britain. They had to create the Continental Congress and the Continental Army (and ultimately a common currency). Before that they were 13 rival states that Britain would have picked off at will. I don't think they ever put it to the electorate. The state legislatures just did it.




I cited the one up man-ship of rank pulling that goes on in NATO and every country does it, if you think that an EU army will be united in any way shape or form, it won't. It'll be disjointed and you'll have more political involvement than we do now. There won't be a specific EU Army, Navy or Airforce as there is already a structure in place where Germany control so many other countries armies under an EU banner, just like NATO banner. I can't see people going to join a specific EU army, Navy or Airforce, The cost is one thing that will definitely spiral out of control and who is going to pay for it. We will be talking billions here, the EU wastes millions moving offices every month just think of the waste of money as headquarters gets moved around to suit the Field Marshalls/generals at the time of command, that's if they take turns.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

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KingstonMariner
January 3, 2019, 1:17am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Marinerz93




I cited the one up man-ship of rank pulling that goes on in NATO and every country does it, if you think that an EU army will be united in any way shape or form, it won't. It'll be disjointed and you'll have more political involvement than we do now. There won't be a specific EU Army, Navy or Airforce as there is already a structure in place where Germany control so many other countries armies under an EU banner, just like NATO banner. I can't see people going to join a specific EU army, Navy or Airforce, The cost is one thing that will definitely spiral out of control and who is going to pay for it. We will be talking billions here, the EU wastes millions moving offices every month just think of the waste of money as headquarters gets moved around to suit the Field Marshalls/generals at the time of command, that's if they take turns.


The whole point is that with a federal Europe and a EU army there'll be a single command structure. No need to rotate it. There'll be fewer problems than there would be with NATO. Or are you saying that there isn't a problem with NATO because the Americans are in charge? In which case, we've opted to give up membership of a federation where we get a say on what happens to being a vassal state where important decisions are made by the baseball cap wearing denizens of Hicksville, Odahio.

Sure the project will take decades to reach a level that the policy framework is bedded in. But ultimately that's got to happen. Europe needs to be in a position to defend itself - as you pointed out elsewhere, 'why should America(n taxpayers) pay for Europe's defence' (actually for the very good reason that it's in the US' interests not to have Europe controlled by an antagonistic power). It's better able to defend itself with a unified command structure and political unity. Worked well for the US.

I think you also mentioned the prospect of an EU army being seen as a threat by the Russians. Like they don't see NATO as a threat? They've been bleating for years about NATO anti-missile shields, NATO expansion into Eastern Europe, NATO encircling Russia in central Asia, the Caucasus etc. There would be more legitimacy in EU troops patrolling the borders of the Baltic states than American ones.


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Skrill
January 3, 2019, 8:35pm Report to Moderator

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With an EU Federation, Europe would end up with a scenario like Yugoslavia. One main reason for the breakup of Yugoslavia was because of the head of the collective presidency was rotated between representatives of the different republics. Authority being passed around. People don't like being told what to do by other nations.

What would an EU Army stand for? Globalism, censorship, taxation without representation, regulation. All while headed by corruptible failed former European PMs/Presidents and suspiciously elected and unaccountable EU Commission. Also making in-efficient, cost in-effective militarises bloated by more bureaucracy, when we already have a vast array of military branches and in addition we'd lose our proud regimental history. (As what would happen if absorbed into an EU Army) Yeah fantastic.


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Marinerz93
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Quoted from KingstonMariner


The whole point is that with a federal Europe and a EU army there'll be a single command structure. No need to rotate it. There'll be fewer problems than there would be with NATO. Or are you saying that there isn't a problem with NATO because the Americans are in charge? In which case, we've opted to give up membership of a federation where we get a say on what happens to being a vassal state where important decisions are made by the baseball cap wearing denizens of Hicksville, Odahio.

Sure the project will take decades to reach a level that the policy framework is bedded in. But ultimately that's got to happen. Europe needs to be in a position to defend itself - as you pointed out elsewhere, 'why should America(n taxpayers) pay for Europe's defence' (actually for the very good reason that it's in the US' interests not to have Europe controlled by an antagonistic power). It's better able to defend itself with a unified command structure and political unity. Worked well for the US.

I think you also mentioned the prospect of an EU army being seen as a threat by the Russians. Like they don't see NATO as a threat? They've been bleating for years about NATO anti-missile shields, NATO expansion into Eastern Europe, NATO encircling Russia in central Asia, the Caucasus etc. There would be more legitimacy in EU troops patrolling the borders of the Baltic states than American ones.


The EU falls down on command of operations, only the British, French (much lower than UK), have any real command of operations that are in the EU.

The US hicks have an enormous amount of experience in operations and have been funding NATO more or less since it was formed and are a superpower and you think an over zealous Belgian MEP with holes in his pockets and plans of dominance, can match the infrastructure needed to replace NATO, the US can call on spy satellites to unmanned drones. This has cost billions to put in place and the rest of the EU are so far behind it's like looking at the Flintstones taking on Predator.

Putin has bemoaned that he feels the US/NATO have surrounded Russia the difference is the language used, Verhofstadt has made speeches in Brussels that the EU Army must front up to Russia, a show of force, is that not a more aggressive stance than what NATO has done.

An EU federal army won't happen, far too expensive, you may get a officer command training station, what will happen and is happening is each country will submit command of it's forces to France or Germany like it currently does now so deployable, interoperable force under a single command carrying out EU foreign policy. You still haven't addressed the cost, some of the EU countries are putting less than the agreed 2% of GDP into defence of their own countries and you think that an EU army can replace NATO.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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codcheeky
January 15, 2019, 7:44pm Report to Moderator
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Surely May will resign?
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LH
January 15, 2019, 7:57pm Report to Moderator

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They’re all in this together. The Commons sure won’t let her and them continue? We go to a general election and this shitshow gets another series.
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forza ivano
January 15, 2019, 8:51pm Report to Moderator

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You won't be getting a general election. Turkeys won't vote for Xmas!
A spectacular loss, in fact I 'd dare to say that is quite an incredible achievement to spend so much time and effort on an agreement that was defeated by so many. And don't forget she has c 80-90 votes tied up by all the tories on the government payroll ( in fact that may be as much as 125) so in reality she got c100 votes out of a possible 560. That takes some doing o alienate so many different people. When she took over and spoke so eloquently about uniting people, I didn't really think she would take t this far  
Matt hancocks shell shocked face was a picture!
Let's hope they have some indicative votes and the sensible heads on both sides get together and force through a Norway type deal which is about the only thing which can get through

Incidentally nobody seems to have raised the following possibility. We exit on either Norway or no deal terms. We then have a general election a couple of years later, by which time we've got a good idea as to how the new arrangement is working.There is absolutely nothing to stop either the tories or labour saying in their manifesto, right the present arrangement hasn't worked , if we get elected we will rejoin the e.u. / exit the present arrangements for wto rules/ apply to join efta or the eea


Ps one other thought. Why couldn't we have a second referendum solely on the 3 brexit options? The May deal / Norway/ no deal?  (I've remaining in the e.u. Isn't an option)That would be respecting the wishes of the voters for brexit, whilst giving us a choice on the final details now that we are much better informed as to he consequences and possibilities
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Manchester Mariner
January 15, 2019, 8:51pm Report to Moderator

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It's just a perpetual cycle of repetition. The same arguments we've had for the last 2 years will continue until we all die.


"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
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GrimRob
January 15, 2019, 8:54pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from codcheeky
Surely May will resign?


Everyone is happy for her to stay and be the fall guy. If anything her position is strengthened as the task before whoever is in charge is so unwinnable it's unimaginable anyone can turn it around from here. If I was Corbyn I'd not want to be anywhere near the negotiating table. Let the Tories make a mess of it and be unelectable for at least a decade.


'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.  
~ Alfred Lord Tennyson

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Maringer
January 15, 2019, 11:29pm Report to Moderator
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One thing to point out is that EFTA members aren't likely to let us join their little club if that was the direction we tried to take. The freedom of movement thing means that no way will May ever try to join EFTA in any case.

The fact that the government is likely to survive the no confidence vote after today's catastrophic defeat shows just what sort of a corner the Tories have painted themselves into.

Not much different for Labour, for that matter. In the event of a general election, if they backed a second referendum, they would almost certainly win the popular vote by a decent amount but might well lose the election itself because so many Labour seats voted leave!
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ginnywings
January 15, 2019, 11:29pm Report to Moderator

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As i said before, May was thrown the hand grenade by Cameron, and none of the other grasping ar$eholes who want to be PM in the Tory party are going to throw their hat into the ring until all this dies down. Boris desperately wants to be P.M., but he's too smarmy an operator to make his move now, while the Tories are so weak and at risk of losing an election.

Have to say that when the chips have been down and the country desperately needs guidance and leadership, most politicians have been found wanting. They love it when it's smooth sailing and they can go about their business of self interest and self promotion, but this crisis has just shown that ultimately, the worst kind of unqualified people end up running the country. I don't know what's worse, what we have here, or Trump in America. Not much in it for me.

Still, it's all the fault of the immigrants.
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forza ivano
January 15, 2019, 11:33pm Report to Moderator

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The thing I love about this is how both leaders have lost control and how parliament is flexing its muscles aided and abetted by the irascible speaker. Long may it continue where like minded politicians band together and pursue an independent course of action. Corbyn and may are becoming increasingly irrelevant in this.its members of the cabinet, the speaker the committee chairs and the 'sensible heads' on the backbenchers who hopefully will take centre stage
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louth_in_the_south
January 16, 2019, 7:47am Report to Moderator

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No second referendum. No fooking People’s vote ffs . We already had it . If Europe and our shi.tearse politicians can’t find a deal then let’s just hard brexit. I don’t trust all these think tanks who predict what will happen on pivotal moments. How many have they actually got right ?!! The people have voted , let’s just get on with it now .

I voted remain in the referendum btw .


Lower F5
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ska face
January 16, 2019, 8:27am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from louth_in_the_south
No second referendum. No fooking People’s vote ffs . We already had it . If Europe and our shi.tearse politicians can’t find a deal then let’s just hard brexit. I don’t trust all these think tanks who predict what will happen on pivotal moments. How many have they actually got right ?!! The people have voted , let’s just get on with it now .

I voted remain in the referendum btw .


There speaks the voice of someone who won’t lose his job in a hard Brexit, unlike tens of thousands of others. Nice position to be in, not having to face any consequences. If only everyone was a lucky as you.
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louth_in_the_south
January 16, 2019, 8:50am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from ska face


There speaks the voice of someone who won’t lose his job in a hard Brexit, unlike tens of thousands of others. Nice position to be in, not having to face any consequences. If only everyone was a lucky as you.


I’m a truck driver not a banker mate . Not everyone who lives down here works in the city . My jobs far from safe , I just don’t fall for all the political scaremongering anyone


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ska face
January 16, 2019, 8:55am Report to Moderator

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Then why would you make out you’re happy to see other people fuckked and potentially fuckk yourself? Makes no sense to me at all.
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louth_in_the_south
January 16, 2019, 9:03am Report to Moderator

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What solid evidence have you got that would happen?


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louth_in_the_south
January 16, 2019, 9:19am Report to Moderator

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All we got from the politicians from both parties and the media before the referendum was that there would be mass unemployment and recession. Didn’t happen. The opposite actually. So why believe them now and throw the democratic vote in the bin ?


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Maringer
January 16, 2019, 9:24am Report to Moderator
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Hard Brexit would almost certainly lead to a recession and the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs (at least). You don't chaotically leave the world's largest and most successful trading bloc (to which your economy has been closely integrated for decades) without as serious impact. If we were to leave completely and the government had spent the past couple of years planning for it and mitigating for the problems we would encounter, you could water down some of the impact, but we haven't. HMRC is already chronically underfunded and understaffed and, with almost no planning, there is no way they can cope with a hard exit. We import most of our food, let's not forget, so it wouldn't take more than a few delays at the major ports for supplies to start running low.

Ignoring the idiotic 'Project Fear' forecasts from Osborne when he was Chancellor (which made as little sense as his other forecasts), you'll not find a reputable economist who thinks that anything other than serious impacts are likely to occur if we have a hard Brexit.

I'm amazed how many people seem to be thinking 'get on with it', even if they originally voted remain. If we're going to leave, let's make sure it's in an orderly manner so it causes as little damage as possible. If this means kicking the can down the road for another 6 months or a year, so be it.
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ginnywings
January 16, 2019, 9:51am Report to Moderator

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The thing is, we are the 5th richest nation on earth and the richest in Europe. There never was a problem with trade and economic prosperity to start with. There was only ever a problem with wealth distribution, and the w@ankers who really run the country weren't happy with taking almost everything, they wanted it all, so they introduce austerity measures and those on the bones of their @rse believed the lying fookers when they told them it was all the fault of the immigrants and the Brussels bureaucrats. That was after blaming the Labour party became a bit thin as an excuse. It's not our fault we are stinking rich and you are dirt poor, it's all Johnny Foreigner's fault.

What an absolute fooking shambles and the people fell for it. Once we are out and they can ride rough shod over workers rights and abolish the work time directive, with no one to stop them, then i expect the poor sods will get even poorer, while the likes of the smarmy Gove, Johnson and Rees Mogg et al will be laughing all the way to the bank.

If we are to leave, then to just say fook it, let's get on with it, will be an even bigger mistake than the decision to leave was in the first place.
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grimsby pete
January 16, 2019, 10:31am Report to Moderator

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I think we will come to an agreement that not only pleases all parties and all four nations of the UK,

BUT

This will not happen until after we move into our new stadium at PP.


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forza ivano
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my hope is that the 'sensible-heads' as i call them (Stella Creasey,Chuka Ummuna, Damian Green, Dominic Grieve, Nick,Boles, Nicky Morgan, Stephen Kinnock, Hilary Benn etc) bypass the leaderships and get together to sort out a deal that can be passed by Parliament
The first thing to happen is they've got to start ignoring the DUP (10 MPs) and the Brexiteers (c100 MPs) as this minority has been the tail wagging the parliamentary dog and their ideas command nil support elsewhere in Parliament. We will get a better idea of what is possible if the series of indicative votes (which need to be free votes) take place.
My best guess is that a Norway type deal has the best chance of getting accepted by the 330 needed. You are a long way to that total if the vast majority of labour went with that, plus the 50 MPs from the other opposition parties.
yes there would be howls of dismay, but we have got to get something through, and if this is the only thing that flies, then so be it.
Don't forget that any future government could change the arrangement if it wasn't working or if there was a popular 'uprising' against it.
i hope that may and Corbyn both become increasingly sidelined as neither of them seem to be living in the real world at present
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ska face
January 16, 2019, 11:15am Report to Moderator

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It’s worrying that people see neoliberal millionaires like Ummuna and warmongers like Benn as “sensible”. Their brand of politics is dead - dead in the U.K and dead across Europe purely because their business as usual approach has put people in the position we’re in currently - massive disparities in wealth, migrant crises caused by western “intervention” in Africa and the Middle East and facing climate extinction. These people do not want a socialist govt as the gravy train stops when people start to address the root cause of many problems in society and they might have to do some actual work. They’ve been sticking the knife into their own party leadership daily for 3 years, 2 failed coups, constant undermining, briefing against the party and ultimately ignoring the membership which decides Labour policy. Not Corbyn, not Momentum, not shady billionaire donors - the members.

People are sick of the status quo and these people personify it.
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Maringer
January 16, 2019, 11:29am Report to Moderator
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I personally think Corbyn is just treading water, hoping the Tories implode completely before he has to take an active stance on anything concrete. The problem is that Labour Party members and many of their voters want different things. The Party members overwhelmingly want a second referendum whereas many of their traditional voters who aren't members voted leave (even if it was directly against their best interests) and nobody really knows how they would go if a second referendum was called.

Here's a pretty long run-down of some of the issues which the Labour leadership are obviously worried about:

https://statsforlefties.blogspot.com/2018/11/do-i-stay-or-do-i-go-labours-brexit.html

Basically, to break it down, lots of constituencies which they must win to have a chance of forming a government voted Leave quite strongly. The electoral calculus is very difficult to work out - how many Tory remainers would never vote for a Labour government? Probably quite a few, even if it led to a catastrophic hard Brexit. How many Labour leavers would vote Tory (or more likely A.N. Other) if Labour backed a second referendum? Who really knows?

I think that the Labour leadership are hoping that May & Co continue to make such a balls-up of things that a General Election is forced to give them a chance of power. Then, after failing to negotiate a substantive change to May's deal (it really is the only possible 'deal' due to the Good Friday agreement, an international treaty which means that Northern Ireland must really remain in the single market), they would regretfully go for a second referendum which would then almost certainly go remain. I say almost certainly because lots of leavers have died since 2016 and lots of potential remain voters have come of voting age.

I can't say I'm a great fan of Corbyn's stance because it's just based on a gamble that things will turn out as hoped rather than taking the bull by the horns and trying to direct the process. We know he's a Eurosceptic himself (even though the claims that the EU rules on state aid would make much of the Labour manifesto untenable just aren't true), but better to be brave than quiet - not that he's likely to get a fair hearing in the media either way.

Oddly enough, whatever the result at the end of this whole debacle, it may be that both the Conservative and Labour parties are destroyed by the process. If so, it would be nice if we could somehow introduce a grown-up electoral system with proportional representation to ensure that votes counted for a lot more.
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forza ivano
January 16, 2019, 11:56am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from ska face
It’s worrying that people see neoliberal millionaires like Ummuna and warmongers like Benn as “sensible”. Their brand of politics is dead - dead in the U.K and dead across Europe purely because their business as usual approach has put people in the position we’re in currently - massive disparities in wealth, migrant crises caused by western “intervention” in Africa and the Middle East and facing climate extinction. These people do not want a socialist govt as the gravy train stops when people start to address the root cause of many problems in society and they might have to do some actual work. They’ve been sticking the knife into their own party leadership daily for 3 years, 2 failed coups, constant undermining, briefing against the party and ultimately ignoring the membership which decides Labour policy. Not Corbyn, not Momentum, not shady billionaire donors - the members.

People are sick of the status quo and these people personify it.


you may well be right Grant, but that ain't the issue here. We've got to get something through and i think they probably have the best chance of taking control of the situation.

Don't agree with everything you say Maringer, but i agree that  the central conundrum for Labour is stark and electorally is possibly more worrying than the Tories situation. There's no way an Election is happening any time soon - the vote tonight will show you that.as i said Turkeys don't vote for Xmas.
incidentally a Norway deal does satisfy the border issue, its just that people will be howling over freedom of movement etc, but even within existing EU rules there are ways of restricting uncontrolled immigration, a point that no UK government took up and a fact that was conveniently forgotten
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louth_in_the_south
January 16, 2019, 12:56pm Report to Moderator

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Maringer — why do you almost certainly believe hundreds of 1000s of jobs would go ? What industries in the Uk would be hardest hit ? I want some answers because I don’t get any from our politicians on the left , right or middle !!


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forza ivano
January 16, 2019, 1:30pm Report to Moderator

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without spiking maringer's guns id say the job losses would be widespread through all sectors. the transfer of financial services jobs to Europe and the problems the car industry would face have been widely covered. Tariffs on imported goods would lead to higher prices and less household spending so the retail sector would be quickly affected. Tariffs on exports would lead to our goods becoming too expensive for foreign customers to buy (although the expected collapse in the exchange rate may mitigate that). There would be an almost immediate cessation of new investment - who's going to spend money on new technology/facilities or simple expansion when the country is grinding to a halt? Companies are going to look to cut costs immediately so temps and zero hours staff would feel it immediately. Agriculture would be badly hit, bizarre to think that so many farmers are enthusiastic brexiteers.
there are so many implications - the whole thing is like peeling an onion, you just discover layer after layer of reprecussions. the exchange rate collapses so the EU workers on who we rely find its not worth staying here; not when they can move to Europe and get similar jobs, be closer to home and earn much more (its already happening in the building industry). What happens then to our care sector, our builders and to the hospitality and warehousing industries?

not a prospect i'd like to experience!

the only minor silver lining for no deal would be that it'd certainly sort out the brexit question once and for all. If after a couple of years of doom and chaos it looks like we're surviving and starting to move forward, then Johnson et al have been proved right and everythings hunky dory. if its a complete disaster then the Brexiteers and Little Englanders might finally shut up and a new government would take us back into Europe to try and make up the lost years
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Town Monkey
January 16, 2019, 1:40pm Report to Moderator
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Financial Services for one is likely to take a massive hit.  We've already seen £800 billion of assets moving to the EU27 along with a good number of very lucrative (and therefore tax generative) roles.  Without the free movement of goods, we would also see a significant hit to our manufacturing sector as there would be a significant disruption to many supply chains.  There would be a number of companies that couldn't cope with the disruption.  Other multinationals could and would have to rethink their business model and potentially move production elsewhere.  

With these businesses gone or diminished there would also be a knock on effect to the local social eco systems and communities who support those businesses and their workers.  
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louth_in_the_south
January 16, 2019, 1:47pm Report to Moderator

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A pretty bleak outlook. I heard an interesting report this morning that said Germany exports in the region of £39B worth of automotive parts a year . Of that I’m not sure comes here but I’d say a large % based on the number of car manufacturers here . Based on that would you think they would be likely to lobby for high import/export tariffs if they would then hammer the German economy. Just one example but if we consider the fact is replicated throughout different industries as the Uk is a very important market for Europe  , would other European countries want to harm their own economies by imposing punitive tariffs. I’m not so sure .


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forza ivano
January 16, 2019, 2:10pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from louth_in_the_south
A pretty bleak outlook. I heard an interesting report this morning that said Germany exports in the region of £39B worth of automotive parts a year . Of that I’m not sure comes here but I’d say a large % based on the number of car manufacturers here . Based on that would you think they would be likely to lobby for high import/export tariffs if they would then hammer the German economy. Just one example but if we consider the fact is replicated throughout different industries as the Uk is a very important market for Europe  , would other European countries want to harm their own economies by imposing punitive tariffs. I’m not so sure .


It's true that the EU exports more to us than it imports from the UK, but there are 3 important facts to consider. about 45% of our exports go to the EU and over half of our imports come the other way whereas our 66 million people only represents 12% of the total EU population.this basically means that we need them more than they need us. they are jeopardising a market which represents 12% of the present internal market, but we are jeopardising half of all our exports and imports
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Town Monkey
January 16, 2019, 2:10pm Report to Moderator
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I don't think it's the tariffs themselves that are the issue (as long as they're not set too high).  The short term issues around customs checks etc are inevitably going to lead to delays. Depending on how long this disruption lasts, will determine how catastrophic the outcome will be.  I for one don't have any confidence in any of our political parties to resolve these issues in a timely fashion.  

Financial services is a separate issue.  The EU27 are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of London taking a hit and them being the destination for funds and jobs.  Germany, Luxembourg, Ireland and France have already been significant beneficiaries but even Spain, Portugal and Belgium have seen business transferring to them.
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Maringer
January 16, 2019, 2:40pm Report to Moderator
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Regarding job losses, they would come throughout all sectors, assuming a recession hits. Since 2008, we've had the weakest 'recovery' from a recession since the Napoleonic wars. It's a recovery without any real recovery. Unemployment 'only' rose by around 600,000 in the last recession but there are all sorts of problems with the jobs market these days - zero hours contracts and the like. I'd imagine another recession would lead to at least as many jobs lost but we're starting from a weaker base. Note that a hard Brexit is pretty much certain to lead to a further devaluation of the Pound so imports will become more expensive.

If we actually manufactured much stuff this wouldn't be a bad thingfor exports but we stopped all that manufacturing nonsense in the 1980s.  

What some don't realise is that the main reason that the FTSE 100 is at such a high level (even with recent large falls) is that most of these companies have extensive overseas operations. With the devaluation of the pound after the referendum, their overseas profits are suddenly worth more in £. It's not an indication of a strong economy in the UK itself!
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Hagrid
January 16, 2019, 7:55pm Report to Moderator

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Said at the time it would intercourse my generation up, and what a flipping mess its made. Country is the laughing stock of europe
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arryarryarry
January 16, 2019, 9:08pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Maringer
No existing EU member is going to be forced to join the Euro. In fact, with the way it is currently structured, you'd be crazy to join. You can't have a currency union without fiscal transfers between states (as they have in the US) because, if you do, the poorer areas lose out because their currency is overvalued and the wealthy areas benefit from an undervalued currency. The ECB (which is not the EU) has screwed over the likes of Greece and Spain, but will soon discover they can't do the same to Italy who are one of the largest economies in the world (not to mention the main EU manufacturing competitor to Germany). If they want to save the Euro, they will have to change policy. Note, however, that the EU and the Euro are not the same thing - we could quite happily have remained in the EU without ever joining the Euro.

As for your other points, we have the veto (until we leave), so can veto anything you say is going to happen:

Cancel the rebate? Nope, we'll veto that.
Cancel the ability to veto? Nope, we'll veto that.
Set up an EU army? Veto.
In some states, an EU embassy would be a decent money saving ploy but I can't see it being favoured because of the 'soft power' having an embassy gives the UK in many countries. The availability of a diplomatic presence provides back channels to resolve issues and attempt to influence policy. Not to mention, where else would our spooks operate from if we lost the embassies!

Most of your anti-EU arguments are against an EU which doesn't exist at present and couldn't exist if we remained a member and didn't vote for the changes to enable them.

If you want to leave the EU to regain complete sovereignty, then fair enough, that's a reasonable argument. You just have be honest enough to accept that it will mean we are a lot poorer because of it in the future. East European countries are clamouring to join the world's largest, wealthiest and most successful trading bloc. There's a good reason for that.


Of course they are, because they will know they will be better off because they will likely end up as net receivers of cash from the EU.

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arryarryarry
January 16, 2019, 9:23pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Marinerz93


Interesting points, how would staying in the EU effect our debt with the EU plans of 2020

1. All EU countries to adopt the Euro - Valdes Dombrovskis, EU Commissioner for the Euro and Social Dialogue, told France 24 that all member states of the European Union have to join the Eurozone eventually. He said: “That's the ultimate goal. If you look at the Treaty, all member states excluding Denmark are actually obliged to join the Euro. When the UK joined the EU it didn't say never, the same as 5 other countries
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/fi.....-adopt-the-euro.html


2. No rebate - The EU’s Budget Commissioner has confirmed that Britain would lose its budget rebate in the highly unlikely scenario that the UK stays in the EU. Gunther Oettinger made it clear that the UK would not keep the “mother of all rebates” if it held a second referendum and decided to stay in the EU: Last time, as part of the 2014-2020 budget negotiations but the mechanisms being put in place will mean the rebate will be dropped

3. No veto on anything including the money demanded from each member state - 12 September 2018 in his annual state of the union address, Jean Claude Juncker said there is a proposal to abolish EU member countries' vetoes on certain tax and foreign policy issues.

4. Contributions and control of our Forces to the EU Army that some people claimed would never be established. - PESCO The Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO) is the part of the European Union's (EU) security and defence policy (CSDP) in which 25 of the 28 national armed forces pursue structural integration. Based on Article 42.6 and Protocol 10 of the Treaty on European Union, introduced by the Treaty of Lisbon in 2009, PESCO was first initiated in 2017. The initial integration within the PESCO format is a number of projects planned to launch in 2018, have you heard of mission creep, you'll understand where things go when Military's get involved

5. Loss of embassies around the world as they are replaced by an EU one and EU foreign policy - More than 50 European Union embassies have opened across the world since the Lisbon Treaty came into force, Mats Persson, director of the Open Europe think tank, said the new EU embassies would, for "all practical purposes", take over the job of representing Britons on the world stage. "Common EU embassies means that Britain can be overruled on crucial diplomatic matters, such as on how to respond to human rights abuses in a conflict-ridden country,"

It is all encapsulated in the Lisbon Treaty -  A more Federal EU with less sovereignty and more power transferred to the EU, basically you'll do what the un-elected bureaucrats decide is right for us, and it'll cost far more than we would ever stand to lose under a hard Brexit

We were warned of the EU plans for an EU army it is now happening, we were warned about EU embassys there are over 50 now. We were warned that the EU is becoming more and more federal and we are seeing more and more power transferred to the EU as countries become less sovereign.

Scary excrement indeed, is a Federal EU good for Britain. Especially when you have the likes of Verhofstadt and Juncker at the driving wheel



Veto you say






Would that be the same Lisbon Treaty that Gordon Brown said we would have a referendum on?

The lying Scottish twit.
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GrimRob
January 17, 2019, 2:47pm Report to Moderator

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Leaving the EU is like voluntarily relegating yourself from the Premier League. I don't think I'll ever understand why so many people want to take such a gamble with our future.


'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.  
~ Alfred Lord Tennyson

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MarinerMal
January 18, 2019, 3:51pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Marinerz93


1. All EU countries to adopt the Euro - Valdes Dombrovskis, EU Commissioner for the Euro and Social Dialogue, told France 24 that all member states of the European Union have to join the Eurozone eventually. He said: “That's the ultimate goal. If you look at the Treaty, all member states excluding Denmark are actually obliged to join the Euro. When the UK joined the EU it didn't say never, the same as 5 other countries
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/fi.....-adopt-the-euro.html


2. No rebate - The EU’s Budget Commissioner has confirmed that Britain would lose its budget rebate in the highly unlikely scenario that the UK stays in the EU. Gunther Oettinger made it clear that the UK would not keep the “mother of all rebates” if it held a second referendum and decided to stay in the EU: Last time, as part of the 2014-2020 budget negotiations but the mechanisms being put in place will mean the rebate will be dropped

3. No veto on anything including the money demanded from each member state - 12 September 2018 in his annual state of the union address, Jean Claude Juncker said there is a proposal to abolish EU member countries' vetoes on certain tax and foreign policy issues.

4. Contributions and control of our Forces to the EU Army that some people claimed would never be established. - PESCO The Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO) is the part of the European Union's (EU) security and defence policy (CSDP) in which 25 of the 28 national armed forces pursue structural integration. Based on Article 42.6 and Protocol 10 of the Treaty on European Union, introduced by the Treaty of Lisbon in 2009, PESCO was first initiated in 2017. The initial integration within the PESCO format is a number of projects planned to launch in 2018, have you heard of mission creep, you'll understand where things go when Military's get involved

5. Loss of embassies around the world as they are replaced by an EU one and EU foreign policy - More than 50 European Union embassies have opened across the world since the Lisbon Treaty came into force, Mats Persson, director of the Open Europe think tank, said the new EU embassies would, for "all practical purposes", take over the job of representing Britons on the world stage. "Common EU embassies means that Britain can be overruled on crucial diplomatic matters, such as on how to respond to human rights abuses in a conflict-ridden country,"

It is all encapsulated in the Lisbon Treaty -  A more Federal EU with less sovereignty and more power transferred to the EU, basically you'll do what the un-elected bureaucrats decide is right for us, and it'll cost far more than we would ever stand to lose under a hard Brexit

We were warned of the EU plans for an EU army it is now happening, we were warned about EU embassys there are over 50 now. We were warned that the EU is becoming more and more federal and we are seeing more and more power transferred to the EU as countries become less sovereign.

Scary excrement indeed, is a Federal EU good for Britain. Especially when you have the likes of Verhofstadt and Juncker at the driving wheel


1. There is no evidence we would be forced to join the Euro. Yes, obvioulsy, the EU wanted each member state to do so but just because we "never said never" does not equate to we have to adopt the Euro.

2. There was talk about if the UK extended the Brexit transition period beyond the end of 2020 we would lose the rebate.That is because the UK is required to contribute to EU coffers during the transition period, but by 2021 Brussels is expected to have revised its budget without the UK. You obviously think we should still get our rebate even if we are not part of the EU? If the UK remains in the EU the rebate would still stand.

3. It's a proposal, that is all it is. The proposal would need to get past the European Parliament and European Council, where it is expected to face much opposition. You would be asking countries to give up their tax control, something they are very unlikely to vote for.

4. All this scaremongering of an EU Army. It is a sensible step given how the US decided no longer to heavily fund NATO or pull out altogether, along with Trump declaring the EU an enemy. With the aggression of Russia over the past few years, I would say they would be fools not to take their own steps to protecting themselves.

5. More scaremongering. Yes the EU have opened some embassies but not at the expense of any national embassies.

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ginnywings
January 19, 2019, 12:04am Report to Moderator

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grimsby pete
January 19, 2019, 5:28pm Report to Moderator

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That about sums it up Ginny  


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monkeyboy
January 31, 2019, 6:33am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from ska face


Can never get my head around this lazy way of thinking. Like Rob said, you can’t reduce the argument to a simple “we pay x, they get y” statement.

Look at the NHS for example. Almost 6% of NHS staff are EU nationals from outside the UK, about 63,000 people. The UK benefits from their labour and expertise without having spent a single penny on their schooling or training until they walked into the country. How much does it cost to train a doctor or a nurse or school and raise someone that now comes and pays taxes in the UK? Try amount that times 63,000. THAT’S the benefit of being in the EU, as that money saved CAN be spent “looking after our own”, as people like to say.

And that’s just one tiny example from an innumerable amount.


So we are reliant on the 63000 medical people from the EU? tell you what if we get rid of all the Immigrants then im sure there would not be this burden on the NHS. racist No im not. just dont like bullshit figures banded around to justify someones point when its inaccurate
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ska face
January 31, 2019, 8:27am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from monkeyboy

So we are reliant on the 63000 medical people from the EU? tell you what if we get rid of all the Immigrants then im sure there would not be this burden on the NHS. racist No im not. just dont like bullshit figures banded around to justify someones point when its inaccurate


Nobody said you were a racist, but interesting that that’s what you’ve immediately jumped to defend (whilst screaming “get rid of the immigrants).

You may not be a racist, but you are a div. Bullshit figures is it? Here you go, read it for yourself.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7783

Are we reliant on them? Well reduce your workforce overnight by 63,000 and see how you get on. Obviously not reliant on 6% of your staff, but it’s going to be a problem if they all disappear, which is an issue when their job is to keep people alive.

When you go to a hospital do you generally see if full of migrants? No, it’s full of old people, fat people, smokers, urine cans and chronics. Not many poles who spend their days slogging their balderdash off in factories and becoming net contributors to the economy. Get rid of the migrants and say goodbye to their tax contributions which help keep the NHS running for everyone.
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mariner91
January 31, 2019, 10:26am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from monkeyboy

So we are reliant on the 63000 medical people from the EU? tell you what if we get rid of all the Immigrants then im sure there would not be this burden on the NHS. racist No im not. just dont like bullshit figures banded around to justify someones point when its inaccurate


I work for the NHS and can tell you from first hand experience that immigrants put far more into the NHS than they take out. If they all go, we're up shitcreek.


Grimsby till I die.
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grimsby pete
January 31, 2019, 3:02pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from mariner91


I work for the NHS and can tell you from first hand experience that immigrants put far more into the NHS than they take out. If they all go, we're up shitcreek.


As a regular customer of West Suffolk Hospital I can confirm that is true,

We would be lost without them.


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monkeyboy
February 2, 2019, 11:29am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from grimsby pete


As a regular customer of West Suffolk Hospital I can confirm that is true,

We would be lost without them.


But my point being is it is relative to the amount of Immigrants in the country now, if there wasnt such a huge influx then the service would not be as stretched.
Obviously the Goverment play the biggest role by budget cutting.
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grimsby pete
February 2, 2019, 1:32pm Report to Moderator

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My main moan about the discussions was highlighted in question time the other night,

The main sticking block for most is the Irish backstop,

The lady from the Telegraph (  not the Grimsby one )  

Said, " if a no deal was the result the EU would use technology to prevent a hard border so why don't they just do that anyway so a deal could be agreed, "  ?

Common sense might appear before the end of March,

BUT

I will not hold my breath.


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MarinerMal
February 4, 2019, 1:07pm Report to Moderator
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So Nissan has decided not to build their X-Trail here largely because of the brexit debacle.

1. The UK decides decides to leave the EU, the world's leading free-trade arrangements, and instead put up trade, customs and tariff barriers for goods, including cars.
2. Japan sets up a free trade deal with the EU meaning zero tarriffs on cars
3. Japan decides that it is therefore easier to supply cars to Europe direct from Japan rather than from the UK.
4. By leaving the EU the UK won't even have the trade deal with Japan either.
5. Multiply this effect across the economy and all our over the next ten years+

Other firms are moving their HQ's to mainland Europe so they maintain full access to the EU and even Brexiteer James Dyson has moved his company HQ to Singapore (so he doesn't have to pay as much tax but please keep listening to him about how good Brexit will be for the UK).

All this is simply dismissed by the Brexiteers as scaremongering.

Well, I suppose, reality can be touch scary.
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grimsby pete
February 4, 2019, 1:14pm Report to Moderator

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If you are a leaver or a  remainer one thing I think we can all agree on is,

The government and May have made a right useless mess of negotiating  any type of deal.


                           Over 33 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
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Maringer
February 4, 2019, 1:56pm Report to Moderator
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To be fair, the Nissan thing isn't just to do with Brexit. They were planning to build the diesel version of the cars over here but sales of diesels have dropped off a cliff in Europe following the pollution scandals in recent years to scaling back production is understandable.

The utter and total uncertainty about what the hell is going on with Brexit (now less than 2 months away!) will have had a lot to do with the decision, but it's not the only factor to be considered.
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FishOutOfWater
February 4, 2019, 2:04pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Maringer
To be fair, the Nissan thing isn't just to do with Brexit. They were planning to build the diesel version of the cars over here but sales of diesels have dropped off a cliff in Europe following the pollution scandals in recent years to scaling back production is understandable.

The utter and total uncertainty about what the hell is going on with Brexit (now less than 2 months away!) will have had a lot to do with the decision, but it's not the only factor to be considered.


The same as JLR a few weeks back when they announced they were cutting their workforce... investment in diesel cars is in general being cut right back because of changes to emission level regulations

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barralad
February 5, 2019, 9:43am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from grimsby pete
If you are a leaver or a  remainer one thing I think we can all agree on is,

The government and May have made a right useless mess of negotiating  any type of deal.


The most culpable are those who tried to peddle the lie that leaving would be easy when with even slight investigation it was patently obvious that to not only disentangle us from 40 years of membership but keep everyone happy was difficult in the extreme. Whether this was done out of a desire to show that the Tories were the natural party of government is perhaps a matter of conjecture but it is crystal clear now why May called the 2017 General Election. Only a decent sized majority would have allowed them to ignore dissension and allowed them to have claimed to deliver on the will of the British people.


I have an inferiority complex-It's not a very good one though.
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MarinerMal
February 6, 2019, 12:58pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Maringer
To be fair, the Nissan thing isn't just to do with Brexit. They were planning to build the diesel version of the cars over here but sales of diesels have dropped off a cliff in Europe following the pollution scandals in recent years to scaling back production is understandable.

The utter and total uncertainty about what the hell is going on with Brexit (now less than 2 months away!) will have had a lot to do with the decision, but it's not the only factor to be considered.


I'm sure there were also other business reasons besides Brexit for the decision but Brexit was certainly part of it. The fact still remains though, it's another negative impact of Brexit. We are heavily invested in by foreign companies who will not hesitate to abandon us if they see being in an EU country serves them better than being in a country that wants to leave. What can we offer these foreign countries that the EU cannot?

I am struggling at the moment see what positives have come from the whole Brexit mess at the moment. The only arguments I see from Bexiteers like Jacob Rees-Mogg (the guy who moved his own companies HQ to Dublin to avoid Brexit fallout) is that it is all down to Project Fear. When quite clearly it is closer to Project Reality.

It's about time we started to face up to fact and admit the majority were mislead by those serving self interest and not national interest.

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FishOutOfWater
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Quoted from MarinerMal


I'm sure there were also other business reasons besides Brexit for the decision but Brexit was certainly part of it. The fact still remains though, it's another negative impact of Brexit. We are heavily invested in by foreign companies who will not hesitate to abandon us if they see being in an EU country serves them better than being in a country that wants to leave. What can we offer these foreign countries that the EU cannot?

I am struggling at the moment see what positives have come from the whole Brexit mess at the moment. The only arguments I see from Bexiteers like Jacob Rees-Mogg (the guy who moved his own companies HQ to Dublin to avoid Brexit fallout) is that it is all down to Project Fear. When quite clearly it is closer to Project Reality.

It's about time we started to face up to fact and admit the majority were mislead by those serving self interest and not national interest.





In short, by the Conservatives... they led the county in to this mess, they're the ones "in charge" of negotiations and out of or in Europe, they'll be around until the next election. Heaven help us!!
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Maringer
February 6, 2019, 2:33pm Report to Moderator
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Let's not forget that the EU/Japan free trade agreement went into effect at the start of this month - a deal which covers a third of the world's GDP in total. So, pretty big.

A no deal Brexit will see us drop us out of this deal at the end of March.
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KingstonMariner
February 6, 2019, 10:57pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Marinerz93


The EU falls down on command of operations, only the British, French (much lower than UK), have any real command of operations that are in the EU.

The US hicks have an enormous amount of experience in operations and have been funding NATO more or less since it was formed and are a superpower and you think an over zealous Belgian MEP with holes in his pockets and plans of dominance, can match the infrastructure needed to replace NATO, the US can call on spy satellites to unmanned drones. This has cost billions to put in place and the rest of the EU are so far behind it's like looking at the Flintstones taking on Predator.

Putin has bemoaned that he feels the US/NATO have surrounded Russia the difference is the language used, Verhofstadt has made speeches in Brussels that the EU Army must front up to Russia, a show of force, is that not a more aggressive stance than what NATO has done.

An EU federal army won't happen, far too expensive, you may get a officer command training station, what will happen and is happening is each country will submit command of it's forces to France or Germany like it currently does now so deployable, interoperable force under a single command carrying out EU foreign policy. You still haven't addressed the cost, some of the EU countries are putting less than the agreed 2% of GDP into defence of their own countries and you think that an EU army can replace NATO.


Like I said it all takes time. And money. But half the reason Russia feels threatened is because this infrastructure gives NATO (the US) offensive capabilities that you say Europe couldn't hope to match unless it ups spending significantly over many years. But it could defend itself.


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KingstonMariner
February 6, 2019, 11:14pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from louth_in_the_south
What solid evidence have you got that would happen?


Don't you believe your own industry's trade body? Those people don't give a excrement what happens unless it affects their back pockets. And they've come out and said it hits their back pockets.


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KingstonMariner
February 6, 2019, 11:16pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from louth_in_the_south
All we got from the politicians from both parties and the media before the referendum was that there would be mass unemployment and recession. Didn’t happen. The opposite actually. So why believe them now and throw the democratic vote in the bin ?


We haven't left yet. We have already seen some of the warning signs (like cancellation of investment plans, relocation of some financial services out of the UK).


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Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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KingstonMariner
February 6, 2019, 11:25pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from forza ivano
without spiking maringer's guns id say the job losses would be widespread through all sectors. the transfer of financial services jobs to Europe and the problems the car industry would face have been widely covered. Tariffs on imported goods would lead to higher prices and less household spending so the retail sector would be quickly affected. Tariffs on exports would lead to our goods becoming too expensive for foreign customers to buy (although the expected collapse in the exchange rate may mitigate that). There would be an almost immediate cessation of new investment - who's going to spend money on new technology/facilities or simple expansion when the country is grinding to a halt? Companies are going to look to cut costs immediately so temps and zero hours staff would feel it immediately. Agriculture would be badly hit, bizarre to think that so many farmers are enthusiastic brexiteers.
there are so many implications - the whole thing is like peeling an onion, you just discover layer after layer of reprecussions. the exchange rate collapses so the EU workers on who we rely find its not worth staying here; not when they can move to Europe and get similar jobs, be closer to home and earn much more (its already happening in the building industry). What happens then to our care sector, our builders and to the hospitality and warehousing industries?

not a prospect i'd like to experience!

the only minor silver lining for no deal would be that it'd certainly sort out the brexit question once and for all. If after a couple of years of doom and chaos it looks like we're surviving and starting to move forward, then Johnson et al have been proved right and everythings hunky dory. if its a complete disaster then the Brexiteers and Little Englanders might finally shut up and a new government would take us back into Europe to try and make up the lost years


I made this point to someone a while back. And she, probably correctly, pointed out it won't quiet the conspiracy theorists. They'd still cook up excuses that it was all the fault of Remoaners for not doing Brexit properly. Don't expect consistency from people that one minute say,' we can do a deal easily, we can do a Norway or a Switzerland', then when they find it's not so easy say 'I told you you can't trust these Europeans to negotiate fairly', or when they find out what a Norway deal actually entails say 'out means out'.


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Skrill
February 7, 2019, 10:02am Report to Moderator

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Nissan’s decision not to begin production of a new model of car in Sunderland dominated the media at the start of the week, despite no jobs actually being lost. Brexit naturally got all the blame, despite a large number of other significant factors including falling demand for diesel cars and the EU’s stringent new emissions standards in the wake of Germany’s major diesel fraud scandal. If it was really a Brexit issue why didn’t Nissan just move production to one of their many manufacturing plants in Spain, or France where they have a strategic partnership with Renault?

Funny how quiet the media was when another Japanese car giant did start a major new production line – just last month Toyota commenced production of the new 2019 Corolla at its Burnaston plant in Derbyshire where over 3000 people are employed. The Corolla is not a niche SUV like the Nissan X-Trail, it is the best-selling car model in the world…

In fact the only mention of the new Corolla on BBC News was a single line in an article puffing up the latest round of no-deal bluster from the firm’s European boss and Greg Clark, which didn’t even mention the fact that new production had started. Not a word from Project Fear cheerleaders Sky News…

In other news, EU President of the European Council (basically where your tax dollars go to), Donald Tusk, says "I’ve been wondering what a special place in hell looks lke for people who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it out safely”. Because not throwing away 39 billion to un-eleceted failed former European leaders year on year is 'unsafe'.



Funny because it was a bunch of hardy Brits that saved Brussels not that long ago.




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KingstonMariner
February 8, 2019, 8:21pm Report to Moderator
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kinnell Skrill. For a 'patriot' your grasp of British military history is dodgy. The blokes you picture were portraying troops in the Netherlands and didn't liberate Brussels (or anywhere, for long, despite their sacrifice).

I thought the whole reaction to Tusk's comment was illuminating. He laid a trap for all the muppets in his use of undiplomatic language. All those Brexiteers who voiced their outrage at being offended were admitting they had no plan! If you're a Brexiteer who had a clear plan then his comments didn't apply.  


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barralad
February 8, 2019, 8:36pm Report to Moderator
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Perhaps more attention should be given to the fact that some of the money we are paying over to the E.U. is to meet our commitments to pensions for our current and former M.E.P.s which of course includes Farage (rhymes with garage) and his merry band of non-attenders. Almost miraculously they all managed to attend the Brussels meeting that was giving out information on their pension entitlements...


I have an inferiority complex-It's not a very good one though.
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KingstonMariner
February 8, 2019, 10:14pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from barralad
Perhaps more attention should be given to the fact that some of the money we are paying over to the E.U. is to meet our commitments to pensions for our current and former M.E.P.s which of course includes Farage (rhymes with garage) and his merry band of non-attenders. Almost miraculously they all managed to attend the Brussels meeting that was giving out information on their pension entitlements...


We know their leaders are all a bunch of hypocrites. Rees-Mogg and his Irish relocation, Dyson offshoring to Singapore. I bet Aaron Banks has got his money in a tax haven. I know there's some unsavoury characters on the Remain side, but they don't pretend to be putting Britain first. 'Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.'


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Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
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MarinerWY
February 9, 2019, 2:03am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from ska face
It’s worrying that people see neoliberal millionaires like Ummuna and warmongers like Benn as “sensible”. Their brand of politics is dead - dead in the U.K and dead across Europe purely because their business as usual approach has put people in the position we’re in currently - massive disparities in wealth, migrant crises caused by western “intervention” in Africa and the Middle East and facing climate extinction. These people do not want a socialist govt as the gravy train stops when people start to address the root cause of many problems in society and they might have to do some actual work. They’ve been sticking the knife into their own party leadership daily for 3 years, 2 failed coups, constant undermining, briefing against the party and ultimately ignoring the membership which decides Labour policy. Not Corbyn, not Momentum, not shady billionaire donors - the members.

People are sick of the status quo and these people personify it.


Absolutely spot on.
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Skrill
February 9, 2019, 7:27pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from KingstonMariner
kinnell Skrill. For a 'patriot' your grasp of British military history is dodgy. The blokes you picture were portraying troops in the Netherlands and didn't liberate Brussels (or anywhere, for long, despite their sacrifice).

I thought the whole reaction to Tusk's comment was illuminating. He laid a trap for all the muppets in his use of undiplomatic language. All those Brexiteers who voiced their outrage at being offended were admitting they had no plan! If you're a Brexiteer who had a clear plan then his comments didn't apply.  


If you can find a coloured picture of the liberation of Brussels be my guest. Although Brian Horrocks who was in Bridge too far and led XXX Corps portrayed by Edward Fox, lead the liberation of Brussels so I was close ish.

The plan is very clear. Leave the European Union under WTO rules, regain sovereignty and build a British Bill of Rights enshrining free speech etc. Stop the spending deficit year on year, get a low-tax economy and welcome the investment. Anything would be better than the leftist high tax, statist, censoring, debt ridden governments.  


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ska face
February 9, 2019, 8:45pm Report to Moderator

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The millionaires and billionaires must be absolutely laughing their cocks off at how easy it’s been to get bootlicking little serfs like Skrill to act as willing cheerleaders for them.

Yeah, I’m sure you’re really gonna benefit from things like corporation tax being slashed, and workers’ rights being scrapped, because that’s what the people at the bottom really need.

Don’t you ever get tired of living your life like such a pathetic victim? Oh boo hoo, the Reds are censoring what I can say, or so someone keeps telling me. Pathetic really. Looking forward to reading whatever Breitbart/Spiked article you copy & paste for us next, sure it’ll be illuminating as always.
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Skrill
February 10, 2019, 6:43pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from ska face
The millionaires and billionaires must be absolutely laughing their cocks off at how easy it’s been to get bootlicking little serfs like Skrill to act as willing cheerleaders for them.

Yeah, I’m sure you’re really gonna benefit from things like corporation tax being slashed, and workers’ rights being scrapped, because that’s what the people at the bottom really need.

Don’t you ever get tired of living your life like such a pathetic victim? Oh boo hoo, the Reds are censoring what I can say, or so someone keeps telling me. Pathetic really. Looking forward to reading whatever Breitbart/Spiked article you copy & paste for us next, sure it’ll be illuminating as always.


It is the left that play the victim card on race, class, and identity in their effort for character assassination. From university diversity quotas and stopping non-left speeches, to social housing while vets live on the streets. To the police being scared of a "far-right" uprising, while we have a opposition in government that is openly Marxist. What a laughable affair, 1984 double-think. That police also don't care about the principle of free speech, look what happened to Harry the Owl in Humberside. I think you'll find UKIP want to make the Big companies pay their fair share of tax returns, and want to leave the EU, which is a massive pro-Big Business lobby environment, destroying the small businesses that make the economies in Europe tick over.

Having lower tax is also the best thing a government can do for the working class and middle classes. Ever heard of the laffer curve? Might want to learn the economics.



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KingstonMariner
February 11, 2019, 3:28am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Skrill


If you can find a coloured picture of the liberation of Brussels be my guest. Although Brian Horrocks who was in Bridge too far and led XXX Corps portrayed by Edward Fox, lead the liberation of Brussels so I was close ish.

The plan is very clear. Leave the European Union under WTO rules, regain sovereignty and build a British Bill of Rights enshrining free speech etc. Stop the spending deficit year on year, get a low-tax economy and welcome the investment. Anything would be better than the leftist high tax, statist, censoring, debt ridden governments.  


Why does it have to be colour? I think we can all figuratively, get the picture even if it's in black and white.

And is it so difficult to find pictures of actors from A Bridge Too Far portraying characters who were involved in the liberation of Brussels? If only there were easy to find colour pictures out there of Edward Fox as Horrocks ....oh!
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0.....&fv1=still_frame

flipping hell Skrill. I've heard of lazy racism, but you're the first case of lazy patriotism I've come across. If you're going to play the big patriot and quote war stories, pull your finger out and get them flipping right.

As for a Bill of Rights. We've got one of those already. Have had for 300 years. Strengthened and expanded by case law, and further legislation including the Human Rights Act which enshrined principles of the ECHR drafted by a British MP and sponsored by Winston Churchill. Again, if you want to be a British patriot, try to learn about your own flipping country.


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Maringer
February 11, 2019, 10:07am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Skrill


Having lower tax is also the best thing a government can do for the working class and middle classes. Ever heard of the laffer curve? Might want to learn the economics.



Flipping heck. An advocate of supply side economics on the Fishy!?! Who'd have thought it? Supply side economics is nothing but snake oil which has failed every test since the 1980s, though making the wealthy even wealthier along the way (some would say by design).

Empirical evidence has pretty much shown the  Laffer curve to be bullshit (or at least the policies based on the theory) - Reagan's tax cuts caused the US deficit and national debt to balloon, as did GWB's tax cuts. In between, we had Clinton's tax rises leading to a boom in revenue and job creation. The US economy did OK under Reagan and GWB because the tax cuts acted as a stimulus - i.e. the US Government took on masses of debt and this found its way into the pockets of workers, but most of it went to the wealthy.

I'm actually all for reasonable amounts of government debt, but only if it does some good. Making millionaires into billionaires isn't doing much good. Which is mostly what happened with QE in this country, oddly enough.

If you're going to tell people to learn the economics, probably best to make sure that you aren't promoting something which has been discredited thoroughly. You'll be advocating a return to the Gold Standard next!
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Chrisblor
February 11, 2019, 1:49pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Skrill

Having lower tax is also the best thing a government can do for the working class and middle classes. Ever heard of the laffer curve? Might want to learn the economics.



hahahahahah m8 I've got a degree in economics and I can tell you the laffer curve is a load of discredited balderdash with no grounding in reality





gary jones
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mariner91
February 11, 2019, 2:41pm Report to Moderator
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Nah Skrill read it on Breitbart so it must be gospel.


Grimsby till I die.
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FishOutOfWater
February 13, 2019, 1:45pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from KingstonMariner


We haven't left yet. We have already seen some of the warning signs (like cancellation of investment plans, relocation of some financial services out of the UK).


I keep thinking there is one common denominator in all the "doom and gloom" that is being bandied about... the Self-servative government who for practically nine years have overseen an economic decline

Whatever happens with Brexit, they'll still be the ones mismanaging our country...
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KingstonMariner
February 13, 2019, 7:00pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Chrisblor


hahahahahah m8 I've got a degree in economics and I can tell you the laffer curve is a load of discredited balderdash with no grounding in reality





You surprise me. A poorly briefed Brexiteer. Who'd have thought it.


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Bawmariner
February 13, 2019, 11:02pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Skrill


Having lower tax is also the best thing a government can do for the working class and middle classes. Ever heard of the laffer curve? Might want to learn the economics.



Another one with a degree in economics here although probably one from those 'lefty unis'. Even if there is a small element of truth in the laffer curve, it like all things would run into diminishing marginal returns so reducing tax further and further would have less and less effect.

Anway the UK has one of the lowest levels of corporation tax in the west. If a company was going to be attracted from abroad by the low tax rate they're probably already here. Trumps tax cuts are showing what happens when you cut an already low corporate tax. You get a small amount of investment but most is just a give away to the rich. All this to make the American deficit scarily high. Debt isn't necessarily a bad thing, Infrastructure projects with decent business cases should pay for themselves but not just to simply give away to the rich who will flee with their money when they inevitably have to pay the debt back.
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Marinerz93
February 16, 2019, 11:17pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from KingstonMariner


Like I said it all takes time. And money. But half the reason Russia feels threatened is because this infrastructure gives NATO (the US) offensive capabilities that you say Europe couldn't hope to match unless it ups spending significantly over many years. But it could defend itself.


If you are going to implement a European Army to front up to Russia as been spouted in Brussels you don't have time or anywhere near the money / resources

Russia as a military power has total military 3,586,128 (2,572, 500 as active reservists) they are ranked 2nd in the world after the US. Pick a fight with Russia and no doubt China will step in. China are in 3rd place with  2,693, 000 active personnel, we simply don't have the man power or bullets needed without the US.

EU countries ranked in order of firepower and outside of France and UK, with maybe Romania you can forget the rest of any notable military expertise, the Netherlands sent Marines to Iraq and when they came back a lot of them cracked up as they couldn't handle it, they had to be screened and counselled in Cyprus before they were allowed home. In my time supporting NATO ops, I have only ever seen the ones listed below in bold.

5th - France
6th - UK

10th - Germany
11th - Italy
19th - Spain
22nd - Poland
28th - Greece
30th - Czech Republic
31st - Sweden
38th - Netherlands
40th - Romania

54th - Denmark
57th - Hungary
59th - Finland
60th - Bulgaria
61st - Austria
62nd - Slovakia
63rd - Portugal
68th - Belgium
72nd - Croatia
92nd - Slovenia
95th - Lithuania
105th - Latvia
108th - Estonia

116th - Ireland

List goes up to 136 places so outside that list is, Republic of Cyprus, Luxembourg and Malta.

Then add in countries that have closer ties with Russia
Main allies are China, Serbia, Cuba, Syria.

Important partners
Pakistan, Laos. Venezuela, Greece, Armenia, Tajikistan, Vietnam, Mongolia, Slovakia, India, Belarus, North Korea, Algeria, Iran, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, so don't expect a roll over.

Then we talk about command, so who would make the decision to commit a European army to war? If it’s the European Union, would it have to be a unanimous decision by all EU nations, as it is now to admit a new country to the bloc? Norway and Greece might have different ideas of what’s an issue worth fighting for, and a pan-European army would have numerous weak links, of which the political would be the biggest. Also if only 4 out of 29 NATO members met the NATO threshold of spending at least 2 percent of their GDP on defense (the U.S. accounts for 70 percent of NATO spending), then why would a pan-European force be any better funded? Europe has enough problems sustaining the military it has, such as most of Germany’s advanced Typhoon fighters being unfit to fly .

Charles de Gaulle famously asked about France: "How can anyone govern a nation that has 246 different kinds of cheese?"

"I would rather fight a coalition than be a part of one," said Napoleon Bonaparte. Napoleon knew that an alliance is only as strong as its weakest link.

However, it’s one thing to create a small EU brigade that could be used for small peacekeeping or humanitarian operations in the Balkans or North Africa, or maybe dispatching a couple of battalions to Eastern Europe as a diplomatic signal. But combat against a large, high-tech opponent like Russia, even in a limited conflict such as a Russian invasion of the Baltic States, would require divisions and brigades supported by all the specialized systems that a modern army needs: air cover, air transport, electronic warfare, reconnaissance systems, and more. Currently, many of those capabilities are provided by the United States: NATO’s 2011 military intervention in Libya was only made possible because the U.S. provided air tankers, smart bombs and reconnaissance planes.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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arryarryarry
February 18, 2019, 2:55pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from KingstonMariner


Why does it have to be colour? I think we can all figuratively, get the picture even if it's in black and white.

And is it so difficult to find pictures of actors from A Bridge Too Far portraying characters who were involved in the liberation of Brussels? If only there were easy to find colour pictures out there of Edward Fox as Horrocks ....oh!
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0.....&fv1=still_frame

flipping hell Skrill. I've heard of lazy racism, but you're the first case of lazy patriotism I've come across. If you're going to play the big patriot and quote war stories, pull your finger out and get them flipping right.

As for a Bill of Rights. We've got one of those already. Have had for 300 years. Strengthened and expanded by case law, and further legislation including the Human Rights Act which enshrined principles of the ECHR drafted by a British MP and sponsored by Winston Churchill. Again, if you want to be a British patriot, try to learn about your own flipping country.


If you think that Winston Churchill ever thought that the ECHR would prevent this country from removing terrorists or preventing twits who went out to support ISIS from returning to the UK then you are clearly raving mad.
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Maringer
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They are our citizens. It's our responsibility to deal with them, even if we end up incarcerating them for years and it costs us a fortune. Same goes for the young lass that went out there, got knocked up and then wants to come back.

If you're going to have citizenship, you can't pick and choose the ones you want.
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grimsby pete
February 18, 2019, 6:59pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Maringer
They are our citizens. It's our responsibility to deal with them, even if we end up incarcerating them for years and it costs us a fortune. Same goes for the young lass that went out there, got knocked up and then wants to come back.

If you're going to have citizenship, you can't pick and choose the ones you want.


Fully agree we have to take  responsibility of our citizens and lock them up if need be,

It is not up to the USA to look after them.


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KingstonMariner
February 18, 2019, 10:15pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Marinerz93


If you are going to implement a European Army to front up to Russia as been spouted in Brussels you don't have time or anywhere near the money / resources

Russia as a military power has total military 3,586,128 (2,572, 500 as active reservists) they are ranked 2nd in the world after the US. Pick a fight with Russia and no doubt China will step in. China are in 3rd place with  2,693, 000 active personnel, we simply don't have the man power or bullets needed without the US.

EU countries ranked in order of firepower and outside of France and UK, with maybe Romania you can forget the rest of any notable military expertise, the Netherlands sent Marines to Iraq and when they came back a lot of them cracked up as they couldn't handle it, they had to be screened and counselled in Cyprus before they were allowed home. In my time supporting NATO ops, I have only ever seen the ones listed below in bold.

5th - France
6th - UK

10th - Germany
11th - Italy
19th - Spain
22nd - Poland
28th - Greece
30th - Czech Republic
31st - Sweden
38th - Netherlands
40th - Romania

54th - Denmark
57th - Hungary
59th - Finland
60th - Bulgaria
61st - Austria
62nd - Slovakia
63rd - Portugal
68th - Belgium
72nd - Croatia
92nd - Slovenia
95th - Lithuania
105th - Latvia
108th - Estonia

116th - Ireland

List goes up to 136 places so outside that list is, Republic of Cyprus, Luxembourg and Malta.

Then add in countries that have closer ties with Russia
Main allies are China, Serbia, Cuba, Syria.

Important partners
Pakistan, Laos. Venezuela, Greece, Armenia, Tajikistan, Vietnam, Mongolia, Slovakia, India, Belarus, North Korea, Algeria, Iran, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, so don't expect a roll over.

Then we talk about command, so who would make the decision to commit a European army to war? If it’s the European Union, would it have to be a unanimous decision by all EU nations, as it is now to admit a new country to the bloc? Norway and Greece might have different ideas of what’s an issue worth fighting for, and a pan-European army would have numerous weak links, of which the political would be the biggest. Also if only 4 out of 29 NATO members met the NATO threshold of spending at least 2 percent of their GDP on defense (the U.S. accounts for 70 percent of NATO spending), then why would a pan-European force be any better funded? Europe has enough problems sustaining the military it has, such as most of Germany’s advanced Typhoon fighters being unfit to fly .

Charles de Gaulle famously asked about France: "How can anyone govern a nation that has 246 different kinds of cheese?"

"I would rather fight a coalition than be a part of one," said Napoleon Bonaparte. Napoleon knew that an alliance is only as strong as its weakest link.

However, it’s one thing to create a small EU brigade that could be used for small peacekeeping or humanitarian operations in the Balkans or North Africa, or maybe dispatching a couple of battalions to Eastern Europe as a diplomatic signal. But combat against a large, high-tech opponent like Russia, even in a limited conflict such as a Russian invasion of the Baltic States, would require divisions and brigades supported by all the specialized systems that a modern army needs: air cover, air transport, electronic warfare, reconnaissance systems, and more. Currently, many of those capabilities are provided by the United States: NATO’s 2011 military intervention in Libya was only made possible because the U.S. provided air tankers, smart bombs and reconnaissance planes.


Who ssaid owt about picking a fight with Russia? NATO is doing better in those stakes than the EU right now. I agree with Trump on one thing. The EU needs to be able to defend itself. Like I said, it'll take time.

As for the capability to attack other countries like Libya. Well that worked out well for us didn't it?


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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FishOutOfWater
February 19, 2019, 2:01pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from KingstonMariner


Who ssaid owt about picking a fight with Russia? NATO is doing better in those stakes than the EU right now. I agree with Trump on one thing. The EU needs to be able to defend itself. Like I said, it'll take time.

As for the capability to attack other countries like Libya. Well that worked out well for us didn't it?


Another one of Cameron's stand-out achievements.... why he's not been knighted yet I just don't know  

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Marinerz93
February 19, 2019, 11:18pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from KingstonMariner


Who ssaid owt about picking a fight with Russia? NATO is doing better in those stakes than the EU right now. I agree with Trump on one thing. The EU needs to be able to defend itself. Like I said, it'll take time.

As for the capability to attack other countries like Libya. Well that worked out well for us didn't it?


The EU top cheeses have been spouting for the last couple of years the need for an EU army to front up to Russia, a far more aggressive stance than what NATO has been accused of by Putin. The Federal EU Army will take an age to replace the capabilities we have under NATO, you don't seem to recognize that this will cost billions and who is going to pay for it, as no country has the resources the yanks have and also the command structure, if the UK stayed in the EU would you be happy with the Belgians commanding our forces into war.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Roast Em Bobby
February 20, 2019, 8:02am Report to Moderator
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Do you realise that Cameron secured a veto over us joining a European Army and "ever closer union" before the brexit vote even took place?


The most fundamental fact is that there is a trade-off between the ability to determine our own rules and access to foreign markets. This fact of life isn’t applicable just to the EU but to any advanced free trade agreement. If you take a purist position on sovereignty, we won’t get advanced trade deals, we will trade less and we will be poorer.

Awaiting the promised "Sunlit Uplands" of Brexit (but expecting a excrement show)
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Marinerz93
February 21, 2019, 3:08pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
Do you realise that Cameron secured a veto over us joining a European Army and "ever closer union" before the brexit vote even took place?


In a federal Europe where countries powers have been transferred to the EU, there will be no veto, watch and see.



Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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grimsby pete
February 21, 2019, 6:33pm Report to Moderator

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I think Ohman is the best Swedish player ever to play for town,

Thought I would just highjack this thread,


                           Over 33 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
                           65 Years following the Town
                            Ian Holloway's  Black and White Army.
                                                UTMM

 
                            
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Roast Em Bobby
February 21, 2019, 7:16pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Marinerz93


In a federal Europe where countries powers have been transferred to the EU, there will be no veto, watch and see.



The point is that we have a veto over ever closer union, so we would never be part of a federal europe and therefore is a bogus reason to vote for brexit.


The most fundamental fact is that there is a trade-off between the ability to determine our own rules and access to foreign markets. This fact of life isn’t applicable just to the EU but to any advanced free trade agreement. If you take a purist position on sovereignty, we won’t get advanced trade deals, we will trade less and we will be poorer.

Awaiting the promised "Sunlit Uplands" of Brexit (but expecting a excrement show)
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Maringer
February 21, 2019, 9:34pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from grimsby pete
I think Ohman is the best Swedish player ever to play for town,

Thought I would just highjack this thread,


I DEMAND THAT THE MODS DELETE THIS FOOTBALL-RELATED POST IN A NON-FOOTY THREAD!
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KingstonMariner
February 22, 2019, 12:32am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Marinerz93


The EU top cheeses have been spouting for the last couple of years the need for an EU army to front up to Russia, a far more aggressive stance than what NATO has been accused of by Putin. The Federal EU Army will take an age to replace the capabilities we have under NATO, you don't seem to recognize that this will cost billions and who is going to pay for it, as no country has the resources the yanks have and also the command structure, if the UK stayed in the EU would you be happy with the Belgians commanding our forces into war.


How can I put this more clearly for you. The original point I made about the EU army is that now the UK is leaving the EU they can get on with it, without us blocking progress. It isn't going to cost us money as we won't be part of it.

A lot of NATO spending is on force projection. The burghers of Europe won't want to spend more than they have to, so the EU army will adopt a defensive posture. Unlike NATO which has actively encircled Russia since the collapse of the SU (despite promises not to do anything of the sort). Putin's mob do moan about the EU, but they reserve their worst vitriol for NATO.

As for the Yanks having more resources to pay for things than Europe. You're having a giraffe aren't you.


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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KingstonMariner
February 22, 2019, 12:39am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from grimsby pete
I think Ohman is the best Swedish player ever to play for town,

Thought I would just highjack this thread,


What about Graham Taylor. I'm sure I read that he was a Suede.  


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KingstonMariner
February 22, 2019, 12:39am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from KingstonMariner


What about Graham Taylor. I'm sure I read that he was a Suede.  


Oh, and more seriously.........Martin Pringle.


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Maringer
February 22, 2019, 10:09am Report to Moderator
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Even if a federal entity such as the United States of Europe was to appear at an unspecified date in the future (and I agree this is the current direction of travel for many in the EU at present), we're talking about it being at least a decade or two away yet.

Surely it would have been much more sensible to instead remain in the EU to reap the economic benefits and then only leave if we don't want to be part of a federal Europe at some unspecified date in the future? Use the veto to protect our own interests as we have done for years, bend the rules in other areas (just like most of the other EU members) as required and use soft power to try to move opinion away from a federal future.

Nah, that's much too sensible. Let's instead crash out with no deal, wrecking our economy in the process as the world's largest and most successful trading bloc shakes their collective heads in disbelief.

As I've said in the past it is much better to be in the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in. Especially when it is so much warmer and better for you inside the tent.
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grimsby pete
February 22, 2019, 11:48am Report to Moderator

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Well at the rate the MP's are resigning from their parties,

We will have to have another election soon as there will be no overall control possible with all the parties calling each other.

The latest Labour MP to resign Ian Mitchell will not be joining the new Independant crowd.

What a farce our politics have become.


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Maringer
February 22, 2019, 11:59am Report to Moderator
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Ian Austin, not Ian Mitchell. I can see how you became confused!

He's a bit different to the other Labour MPs who have quit as he's an Brexiteer so he's not going to join this new group who are looking for a second referendum.

Absolutely no surprise that he's jumped ship and he won't be calling a by-election. He's got the tiniest of majorities from 2017 (22 votes!) and has done nothing but attack the Labour leadership over the past couple of years whilst falling out with his CLP so he's a dead man walking politically. His best hope of keeping his seat is to remain independent and go for the UKIP vote.

Next one to go will almost certainly be Jon Mann, another who voted against the whip in the 'Meaningful vote' amendment last month and who has done little but attack Corbyn over the past few years. Question is whether he would be popular enough to split the Labour vote in the next election or not. He'll not join the 'Independent Group' either as he's a Brexiteer as well.

Not sure whether Hoey will go or not. She's so nutty that nobody has a clue what she's going to do next.
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grimsby pete
February 22, 2019, 12:56pm Report to Moderator

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My muddled brain was thinking is he related to Austin Mitchell ?  

Then put the wrong surname,

By the sound of it there are a few more from both parties about to jump ship.

Is it all worth it we might ask.


                           Over 33 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
                           65 Years following the Town
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FishOutOfWater
February 22, 2019, 1:27pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Maringer
Even if a federal entity such as the United States of Europe was to appear at an unspecified date in the future (and I agree this is the current direction of travel for many in the EU at present), we're talking about it being at least a decade or two away yet.

Surely it would have been much more sensible to instead remain in the EU to reap the economic benefits and then only leave if we don't want to be part of a federal Europe at some unspecified date in the future? Use the veto to protect our own interests as we have done for years, bend the rules in other areas (just like most of the other EU members) as required and use soft power to try to move opinion away from a federal future.

Nah, that's much too sensible. Let's instead crash out with no deal, wrecking our economy in the process as the world's largest and most successful trading bloc shakes their collective heads in disbelief.

As I've said in the past it is much better to be in the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in. Especially when it is so much warmer and better for you inside the tent.


I tend to agree with you to some extent KM

One thing though I disagree with is the much over-used cliché "crashing out"

A crash to me implies that it's something that happens out of nothing.... this mayhem has been going on now for nigh on 3 years. Has to be the slowest crash on record!!  
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Roast Em Bobby
February 22, 2019, 7:12pm Report to Moderator
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They haven't come up with much of a plan in the 3 years though, so it will probably feel very "crashy" for many businesses.

Out of interest does anyone genuinely think we will leave without a deal?


The most fundamental fact is that there is a trade-off between the ability to determine our own rules and access to foreign markets. This fact of life isn’t applicable just to the EU but to any advanced free trade agreement. If you take a purist position on sovereignty, we won’t get advanced trade deals, we will trade less and we will be poorer.

Awaiting the promised "Sunlit Uplands" of Brexit (but expecting a excrement show)
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chrissy
February 22, 2019, 9:37pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
They haven't come up with much of a plan in the 3 years though, so it will probably feel very "crashy" for many businesses.

Out of interest does anyone genuinely think we will leave without a deal?


I am beginning to think we will not leave at all.


I LOVE GRIMSBY TOWN









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Marinerz93
February 23, 2019, 10:28pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from KingstonMariner


How can I put this more clearly for you. The original point I made about the EU army is that now the UK is leaving the EU they can get on with it, without us blocking progress. It isn't going to cost us money as we won't be part of it.

A lot of NATO spending is on force projection. The burghers of Europe won't want to spend more than they have to, so the EU army will adopt a defensive posture. Unlike NATO which has actively encircled Russia since the collapse of the SU (despite promises not to do anything of the sort). Putin's mob do moan about the EU, but they reserve their worst vitriol for NATO.

As for the Yanks having more resources to pay for things than Europe. You're having a giraffe aren't you.


You were claiming that an EU army will be well funded and be a force good enough to replace NATO.



I am basing my views on what I have seen and experienced over 22 years being deployed on ops and on joint exercises, working with the Yanks and other European forces. The EU can do what ever they like once we have left, because it will be a excrement storm if the likes of Verhofstadt and Yunker get their way when a Federal EU army stands up and fronts up to Russia as a show of force for their new federation as they claim.

Vitriol now for NATO, again lets see what happens with this emerging federal EU army, we'll soon see what the Russians think.

Proof is in the pudding how much does the US pay into NATO each year, deduct that and what the UK spends on NATO = massive hole in the finances.




If Brexit fails we'll be knee deep in what the EU wants from the UK, oh I forgot we'll just play the veto card.



Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Roast Em Bobby
February 24, 2019, 9:26am Report to Moderator
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Don't let the facts get in the way of your argument Marinerz93  - https://fullfact.org/europe/hunt-eu-army/


The most fundamental fact is that there is a trade-off between the ability to determine our own rules and access to foreign markets. This fact of life isn’t applicable just to the EU but to any advanced free trade agreement. If you take a purist position on sovereignty, we won’t get advanced trade deals, we will trade less and we will be poorer.

Awaiting the promised "Sunlit Uplands" of Brexit (but expecting a excrement show)
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Marinerz93
February 24, 2019, 5:33pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
Don't let the facts get in the way of your argument Marinerz93  - https://fullfact.org/europe/hunt-eu-army/


I don't mind been proven wrong with facts Bobby, facts are great when they are current, you've just roasted yourself as that report was Published: 20th Jun 2016



I do see an element of current truth in the fact that the "The EU has a long record of creating institutions through the 'back door' and the creation of a EU Army will be no different. All of a sudden, the British public will be presented with a 'done deal' and British troops will find themselves operating under the EU flag rather than the Union flag." EU definitely has form for creating institutions through the back door and announcing what we have just signed up to and our politicians are happy to let them do it so when people complain they just blame it on the EU.

All hail Brexit.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Roast Em Bobby
February 25, 2019, 7:57am Report to Moderator
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That's a pretty poor attempt at using diversion tactics to shy away from the truth. The fact the article is 2 years old is utterly irrelevant. It is still impossible for the UK (or any other country) to be raid-roaded into an EU army against their will.

Your obviously paranoid, stupid, ignorant or all three.


The most fundamental fact is that there is a trade-off between the ability to determine our own rules and access to foreign markets. This fact of life isn’t applicable just to the EU but to any advanced free trade agreement. If you take a purist position on sovereignty, we won’t get advanced trade deals, we will trade less and we will be poorer.

Awaiting the promised "Sunlit Uplands" of Brexit (but expecting a excrement show)
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Maringer
February 25, 2019, 8:02am Report to Moderator
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Pro tip: inserting meme gifs into a post doesn't do anything but make it look puerile.

As for the rest of the post, it is, as usual, handwavy projections about something which somebody claims might happen in the future in the event of perfidious politicians voting against their own national interest for an undisclosed reason. All whilst ignoring the fact that we could opt out or veto and if they tried to take the veto away in this regard, then we could consider leaving for a sensible reason.

The fact that you singled out the quote from UKIP as being the only true part is risible.

The daftest point of this is that you're so keen on NATO when it is pretty obvious that the Yanks couldn't give a flying excrement about the alliance, especially with the orange excrement gibbon in chief running the show over there. All they see it as is an opportunityto  extend their own sphere of influence, defence be damned. As KM notes, it was the thoughtless expansionism of NATO into the Baltic states and Eastern Europe which has led to most of the modern tensions with Russia, and you can add in a civil war in the Ukraine into the mix as well.
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Marinerz93
February 25, 2019, 7:37pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Maringer
Pro tip: inserting meme gifs into a post doesn't do anything but make it look puerile.

Pro tip  



As for the rest of the post, it is, as usual, handwavy projections about something which somebody claims might happen in the future in the event of perfidious politicians voting against their own national interest for an undisclosed reason. All whilst ignoring the fact that we could opt out or veto and if they tried to take the veto away in this regard, then we could consider leaving for a sensible reason.

pro tip, we joined a common market not political union, did this political union happen with our permission, no, did it happen over night, no. It all happened over many years of back door deals and people turning a blind eye to what was going on, did we vote for it no.
Projections are based on what is being voiced by EU leaders who have voiced things before and they have come to fruition, like I said in a previous post, time will tell as it has with the EU army you and many other cry baby remainers said would never happen.


The fact that you singled out the quote from UKIP as being the only true part is risible.

Everything UKIP has made public knowledge about how the EU operates has exposed the EU for what it is and where it is heading. Also if you listen to other parties within the EU it isn't just UKIP exposing what is going on and what is planned.

The daftest point of this is that you're so keen on NATO when it is pretty obvious that the Yanks couldn't give a flying excrement about the alliance, especially with the orange excrement gibbon in chief running the show over there. All they see it as is an opportunityto  extend their own sphere of influence, defence be damned. As KM notes, it was the thoughtless expansionism of NATO into the Baltic states and Eastern Europe which has led to most of the modern tensions with Russia, and you can add in a civil war in the Ukraine into the mix as well.


No doubt it show cases US military and helps their sales like it does for the UK.

Yes, lets blame NATO and the yanks far more too it and far more political, pro tip, read The constitution of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea.



Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Marinerz93
February 25, 2019, 7:57pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
That's a pretty poor attempt at using diversion tactics to shy away from the truth. The fact the article is 2 years old is utterly irrelevant. It is still impossible for the UK (or any other country) to be raid-roaded into an EU army against their will.

Your obviously paranoid, stupid, ignorant or all three.




The report is nonsense, option to leave will be gone with the first puff of air from a PM wanting to make a name for themselves aka peace envoy Blair, all it will take is someone like verhofstadt or Junker and our politicians with the breaking strain of a kit kat will give in and the next thing you know is we are knee deep in it as mission creep has set in as it always does.

Truth, did the UK join a common market or political union, does the ECJ have jurisdiction over UK law, who voted for that, who gave the EU the power for that.

I'll take Paranoid, you can keep stupid and ignorant.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Roast Em Bobby
February 25, 2019, 8:55pm Report to Moderator
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I could prove you wrong on every point you make, but i'd just be wasting my time. Your clearly a nut-job.


The most fundamental fact is that there is a trade-off between the ability to determine our own rules and access to foreign markets. This fact of life isn’t applicable just to the EU but to any advanced free trade agreement. If you take a purist position on sovereignty, we won’t get advanced trade deals, we will trade less and we will be poorer.

Awaiting the promised "Sunlit Uplands" of Brexit (but expecting a excrement show)
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Marinerz93
February 25, 2019, 10:26pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
I could prove you wrong on every point you make, but i'd just be wasting my time. Your clearly a nut-job.


You haven't proven any points but given dated so called facts from June 2016. So it would seem we are both a bit nutty



Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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mariner91
February 25, 2019, 10:44pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Marinerz93


You haven't proven any points but given dated so called facts from June 2016. So it would seem we are both a bit nutty



Except they're not dated because nothing has changed. We have the right to veto things right up until we leave.


Grimsby till I die.
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chrissy
February 26, 2019, 2:54pm Report to Moderator

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Well well well, how many times has May gone back on her word ?

She said no snap election,

She had said no PM would let N Ireland be different to the rest of the UK,

Gone back on both of those,

She said over one hundred times we are leaving with or without a deal on March 29th,

Now she says it can be extended.

I can not take her serious anymore,

Mind you Corbyne is not better  he says we should have another referendum



I LOVE GRIMSBY TOWN









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cmackenzie4
February 26, 2019, 6:45pm Report to Moderator

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Question

If we have another referendum and the leave wins again what happens then ? and if we have another referendum and the remain wins would there be another referendum after that ? (best out of 3)

How would another vote (which is looking more likely now)   work? I’m puzzled


Grimsby and proud!
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DocDock
February 27, 2019, 8:40am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from cmackenzie4
Question

If we have another referendum and the leave wins again what happens then ? and if we have another referendum and the remain wins would there be another referendum after that ? (best out of 3)

How would another vote (which is looking more likely now)   work? I’m puzzled


The only thing that’s certain is that nothing is certain at the moment. Seemingly nobody but May and the Yes men that surround her think her deal is a good deal. The fact her Government can’t come to an agreement with the EU means to me that the only realistic option is to put all the options back out to the public by means of a vote. Personally i hope that the shitshow of the last 2 and a half years has shown many that leaving the EU is a bad idea but I’m not holding out much hope.
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grimsby pete
February 27, 2019, 10:37am Report to Moderator

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It is becoming a situation like our new ground,

Yes we are getting it ,(  Brexit )

BUT

Not yet.

Maybe in another 20 years.


                           Over 33 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
                           65 Years following the Town
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FishOutOfWater
February 27, 2019, 1:41pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from chrissy
Well well well, how many times has May gone back on her word ?

She said no snap election,

She had said no PM would let N Ireland be different to the rest of the UK,

Gone back on both of those,

She said over one hundred times we are leaving with or without a deal on March 29th,

Now she says it can be extended.

I can not take her serious anymore,

Mind you Corbyne is not better  he says we should have another referendum



I never could Chrissy...

We'd probably be better off with Noel Edmonds in charge

At least he's got plenty of experience wrapping up "Deal or No Deal" scenarios without things dragging on and on and on
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AdamHaddock
February 27, 2019, 3:03pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from cmackenzie4
Question

If we have another referendum and the leave wins again what happens then ? and if we have another referendum and the remain wins would there be another referendum after that ? (best out of 3)

How would another vote (which is looking more likely now)   work? I’m puzzled


It would presumably be a choice between May's deal and remain with the result being final
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Maringer
February 27, 2019, 5:46pm Report to Moderator
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For any second referendum you'd ideally have some sort of a weighted vote or a transferrable vote but then the problem is that there aren't really two 'remain' options to choose from to balance out either side.

For leave you would have May's deal or No deal, However, without another remain option, having a fair and unbiased weighting would be very difficult. You'd simply end up with May's deal going through as hardcore Brexiteers voted for No deal followed by May's deal and remainers would vote for Remain followed by May's deal. If the possibility of EEA membership was on the cards it might be a different case, but it's just not.

As a thought experiment, I've seen some say we would have a weighted vote where the votes of the young are of greater value than those of the old! After all, they are the ones who are going to be living with the result for (often much) longer. Needless to say, most Brexiteers wouldn't be very happy with this outcome as they are generally much older and the best part of a million of them have died since the last referendum as it stands so you would guarantee a sizeable remain victory!

Oddly enough, if we didn't have a First Past the Post voting system in parliamentary elections, I reckon we'd have seen a second referendum voted through parliament a long while ago, either following a General Election or more probably, with remain MPs from all sides banding together to defeat the government. If the electoral calculus didn't indicate Labour might lose so many seats in their leave constituencies by backing a second referendum, I think they would have thrown their weight behind it some time ago. As it is, they've been twiddling their collective thumbs doing nothing whilst May pisses around assuming that the government would fall to pieces. They've underestimated just how much humiliation and dishonesty the Tories will accept to remain in power and it seems to have worked for them as the electorate doesn't seem to blame them for this mess which is entirely of their own making.

Thing is, I can't see the way to a second referendum even now when so many MPs obviously want to back it. It seems most likely that the Tories (probably with the help of a bunch of Labour MPs) will decide to push through May's deal as the least bad option. God help us if they don't as a No Deal would be catastrophic.
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Marinerz93
February 27, 2019, 11:08pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from cmackenzie4
Question

If we have another referendum and the leave wins again what happens then ? and if we have another referendum and the remain wins would there be another referendum after that ? (best out of 3)

How would another vote (which is looking more likely now)   work? I’m puzzled


If there was another vote and remain won, just like what happened to Ireland, people are now more informed and thus the decision is final and binding. Otherwise we'll keep having vote after vote until all the old racist anti youth voters are out numbered by kids who haven't been born yet.

The day democracy dies is when remain win, it will be catastrophic for every man woman child and gerbil in the UK.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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monkeyboy
February 28, 2019, 6:32am Report to Moderator
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I dont want another vote unless its the following three options 1. Leave   2 Leave and hang all the politicians for going against the will of the people. 3 Dont remain.
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FishOutOfWater
February 28, 2019, 1:12pm Report to Moderator
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IF there were to be another referendum AND the result was still to leave it would be highly interesting as to what might happen then?

I wonder if there are actually any plans in place to manage an exit or do the "powers that be" think that we'll never leave and so have just pushed this around for the last three years knowing that we would always remain?
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Maringer
February 28, 2019, 2:30pm Report to Moderator
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Any second referendum would have to specify just what sort of a Brexit we would be voting on. If we're going to leave, it will have to be either May's deal or No deal. Literally no other options on the table or possible. If the electorate were daft enough to vote for a No deal, I'd imagine some politicians would stand down as it would be extremely challenging to deal with things once the crap hits the fan.

I certainly think that most politicians have assumed that there would be another vote on the final deal (Rees Mogg even suggested it would be a good idea), but I think the incompetence we've seen from both of the main parties hasn't been a show. That said, if you were trying to make a balls-up of things deliberately, you'd certainly want the likes of Davies, Raab,  Johnson, Fox etc running the show.

P.S. And just look how we're 'Taking back control':

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47400679
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Maringer
March 1, 2019, 12:42pm Report to Moderator
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Hmmm. Interesting if this report is true/comes to pass:

https://www.theguardian.com/po.....it-faces-public-vote

Fundamentally, Labour would say we'll back May's deal to get it through parliament with the proviso it going to a second referendum. This would obviously then be an in/out option with the electorate at least knowing what they are voting for this time around.

Electoral calculus would tend to indicate that Remain would win this time around, but then who knows, because that's what everyone assumed last time?

Of course, this wouldn't settle things for many hard Brexiteers regardless of which way the decision went. Bizarrely, some still seem to think that a No deal Brexit would be for the best despite all evidence to the contrary. They would either be complaining about losing or complaining that we don't have a 'proper' Brexit when the economy takes a hit as anticipated.

Regardless, I'll bet Farage is rubbing his hands with glee - he'll be back centre stage before he knows it and will probably get the chance to fail to be elected as an MP again in any number of seats.
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FishOutOfWater
March 1, 2019, 1:16pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Maringer
Any second referendum would have to specify just what sort of a Brexit we would be voting on. If we're going to leave, it will have to be either May's deal or No deal. Literally no other options on the table or possible. If the electorate were daft enough to vote for a No deal, I'd imagine some politicians would stand down as it would be extremely challenging to deal with things once the crap hits the fan.

I certainly think that most politicians have assumed that there would be another vote on the final deal (Rees Mogg even suggested it would be a good idea), but I think the incompetence we've seen from both of the main parties hasn't been a show. That said, if you were trying to make a balls-up of things deliberately, you'd certainly want the likes of Davies, Raab,  Johnson, Fox etc running the show.

P.S. And just look how we're 'Taking back control':

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47400679


It only came to my attention recently who came up with this slogan - Dominic Cummings

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2019/01/221871/dominic-cummings-now-2019-brexit

https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/perspective/eu-ref-haughton.aspx

Like what he did or not, he very cleverly added the "back" into the initial form of the slogan to make people feel that they were going to be returning to the "good old days" when we ruled the waves etc





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Limerick Mariner
March 2, 2019, 9:46am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Maringer
Hmmm. Interesting if this report is true/comes to pass:

https://www.theguardian.com/po.....it-faces-public-vote

Fundamentally, Labour would say we'll back May's deal to get it through parliament with the proviso it going to a second referendum. This would obviously then be an in/out option with the electorate at least knowing what they are voting for this time around.

Electoral calculus would tend to indicate that Remain would win this time around, but then who knows, because that's what everyone assumed last time?

Of course, this wouldn't settle things for many hard Brexiteers regardless of which way the decision went. Bizarrely, some still seem to think that a No deal Brexit would be for the best despite all evidence to the contrary. They would either be complaining about losing or complaining that we don't have a 'proper' Brexit when the economy takes a hit as anticipated.

Regardless, I'll bet Farage is rubbing his hands with glee - he'll be back centre stage before he knows it and will probably get the chance to fail to be elected as an MP again in any number of seats.


From what I've read it all depends on turnout - if the youth turnout at the same level as the pensioners Remain will win comfortably. If the first referendum had been in September rather than June we might have a different result. Exams just finished, drunk and hungover Uni and A Level students thought Remain would win and didn't bother to vote...
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KingstonMariner
March 2, 2019, 5:04pm Report to Moderator
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So now EU immigration is down, and non-EU immigration is up, I wonder if those Brexiteers who were motivated by racist tendancies (some not all mind) are feeling happier now that their aged mother is going to be looked after by a woman from west Africa rather than a Slav.


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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Marinerz93
March 2, 2019, 5:27pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from FishOutOfWater
IF there were to be another referendum AND the result was still to leave it would be highly interesting as to what might happen then?

I wonder if there are actually any plans in place to manage an exit or do the "powers that be" think that we'll never leave and so have just pushed this around for the last three years knowing that we would always remain?


If leave won, then there are obviously still too many racists and ignorant old people who didn't know what they were voting for. The same cry baby tactics will be rolled out again and again until the anti democracy, self loathing remainers win, which will be horrific for those who don't want to be part of a federal Europe paying federal tax's as well as paying income tax. Remaining is turkey's voting for Christmas except it won't be our heads on the blocks it will be the grubby hands of the EU in our wallets.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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grimsby pete
March 2, 2019, 5:27pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from KingstonMariner
So now EU immigration is down, and non-EU immigration is up, I wonder if those Brexiteers who were motivated by racist tendancies (some not all mind) are feeling happier now that their aged mother is going to be looked after by a woman from west Africa rather than a Slav.


I just want somebody to wash my car,


                           Over 33 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
                           65 Years following the Town
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Roast Em Bobby
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Quoted from Marinerz93


If leave won, then there are obviously still too many racists and ignorant old people who didn't know what they were voting for. The same cry baby tactics will be rolled out again and again until the anti democracy, self loathing remainers win, which will be horrific for those who don't want to be part of a federal Europe paying federal tax's as well as paying income tax. Remaining is turkey's voting for Christmas except it won't be our heads on the blocks it will be the grubby hands of the EU in our wallets.


Not just old people. You've demonstrated in this thread that you don't know either.



The most fundamental fact is that there is a trade-off between the ability to determine our own rules and access to foreign markets. This fact of life isn’t applicable just to the EU but to any advanced free trade agreement. If you take a purist position on sovereignty, we won’t get advanced trade deals, we will trade less and we will be poorer.

Awaiting the promised "Sunlit Uplands" of Brexit (but expecting a excrement show)
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FishOutOfWater
March 5, 2019, 1:19pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Roast Em Bobby


Not just old people. You've demonstrated in this thread that you don't know either.



To be fair to Marinerz93 I think he's maybe said "old people" with tongue firmly in cheek

The media do put forward this generalisation that it was old folk who wanted out and the young who wanted to remain when of course it was a lot more complex than that

Maybe there was something in it with the samples that the opinion polls showed but if our votes were anonymous how could anyone know the age of those in the polling booths?  
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Limerick Mariner
March 5, 2019, 1:47pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from FishOutOfWater


To be fair to Marinerz93 I think he's maybe said "old people" with tongue firmly in cheek

The media do put forward this generalisation that it was old folk who wanted out and the young who wanted to remain when of course it was a lot more complex than that

Maybe there was something in it with the samples that the opinion polls showed but if our votes were anonymous how could anyone know the age of those in the polling booths?  


Polls were done on how people had voted. Of course people can lie, but as a generality, the polls showed pensioners / those who had paid off mortgage voted leave, the young and those working with mortgages voted remain, the young voted generally remain except generally those on benefits and in rented voted leave.

If the young turned out as strongly as pensioners Remain would win.

The Tory bribes to pass May's deal are too little too late. Scrap HS2, invest in Crossrail North from Hull to Liverpool, investment in electrified light rail in the North and Midlands to link to the fast rail hubs at Donny / Newark / Peterborough, put fast Wifi clouds over all major urban areas and scrap Brexit because what we pay to the EU is feck all compared to the overall economic benefits. Time for our youth to take back control from the Tory shires old-fart elite that want a hard brexit.
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FishOutOfWater
March 6, 2019, 12:55pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Limerick Mariner


Polls were done on how people had voted. Of course people can lie, but as a generality, the polls showed pensioners / those who had paid off mortgage voted leave, the young and those working with mortgages voted remain, the young voted generally remain except generally those on benefits and in rented voted leave.

If the young turned out as strongly as pensioners Remain would win.

The Tory bribes to pass May's deal are too little too late. Scrap HS2, invest in Crossrail North from Hull to Liverpool, investment in electrified light rail in the North and Midlands to link to the fast rail hubs at Donny / Newark / Peterborough, put fast Wifi clouds over all major urban areas and scrap Brexit because what we pay to the EU is feck all compared to the overall economic benefits. Time for our youth to take back control from the Tory shires old-fart elite that want a hard brexit.


Agree with a lot of what you say LM but everyone knows that the polls are inaccurate... if the exit polls had been correct in June 2016, then the Remain campaign would have been a success and we'd have decided to stay in Europe

The whole thing has been a disaster, with Cameron and then May making a pig's ear of everything... sad to say but those same Tories will still be in charge for the next 3 years at least, no matter what ( if anything ) happens this month  
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Marinerz93
March 6, 2019, 5:01pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Roast Em Bobby


Not just old people. You've demonstrated in this thread that you don't know either.





Woooooosh, I nearly had a flash back to 2016



Quoted from FishOutOfWater


To be fair to Marinerz93 I think he's maybe said "old people" with tongue firmly in cheek

The media do put forward this generalisation that it was old folk who wanted out and the young who wanted to remain when of course it was a lot more complex than that


Maybe there was something in it with the samples that the opinion polls showed but if our votes were anonymous how could anyone know the age of those in the polling booths?  




Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Roast Em Bobby
March 10, 2019, 9:43am Report to Moderator
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The most fundamental fact is that there is a trade-off between the ability to determine our own rules and access to foreign markets. This fact of life isn’t applicable just to the EU but to any advanced free trade agreement. If you take a purist position on sovereignty, we won’t get advanced trade deals, we will trade less and we will be poorer.

Awaiting the promised "Sunlit Uplands" of Brexit (but expecting a excrement show)
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Roast Em Bobby
March 12, 2019, 7:54am Report to Moderator
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Hey Marinerz93, since you seemed to think the previous facts I produced where out of date (when they weren't), here is another factual confirmation that you have been talking bolloxs

https://fullfact.org/europe/vi.....8dXCM9X89oCoJQo3pdkQ

Of particular note, it states:
UK law also states that no such common EU defence powers can be handed from the UK to the EU without the approval of parliament and a referendum on the decision.


The most fundamental fact is that there is a trade-off between the ability to determine our own rules and access to foreign markets. This fact of life isn’t applicable just to the EU but to any advanced free trade agreement. If you take a purist position on sovereignty, we won’t get advanced trade deals, we will trade less and we will be poorer.

Awaiting the promised "Sunlit Uplands" of Brexit (but expecting a excrement show)
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grimsby pete
March 12, 2019, 11:14am Report to Moderator

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We will never leave imo


                           Over 33 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
                           65 Years following the Town
                            Ian Holloway's  Black and White Army.
                                                UTMM

 
                            
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AdamHaddock
March 12, 2019, 12:25pm Report to Moderator

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So, likely result tonight? I think she needs the whole of the ERG and DUP to flip to reverse the result last time

Roll on the second referendum...
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FishOutOfWater
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After last night's Strasbourg shenanigans and this morning's ruling by the attorney general, as they say in that part of Europe "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"

So what next.... No deal or no Brexit?

My money is on the latter....who knows what mayhem is in store with either course?
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grimsby pete
March 12, 2019, 3:12pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from FishOutOfWater
After last night's Strasbourg shenanigans and this morning's ruling by the attorney general, as they say in that part of Europe "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"

So what next.... No deal or no Brexit?

My money is on the latter....who knows what mayhem is in store with either course?


What ever happens stay or leave we will get over it,

The country will unite once more like after a war.

Well it feels like a war don't you think ?


                           Over 33 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
                           65 Years following the Town
                            Ian Holloway's  Black and White Army.
                                                UTMM

 
                            
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FishOutOfWater
March 12, 2019, 6:18pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from grimsby pete


What ever happens stay or leave we will get over it,

The country will unite once more like after a war.

Well it feels like a war don't you think ?


A war of attrition I think is the phrase they use Pete..... thankfully there's a generation or two who have never experienced a war as such like our forefathers did ( apart from the Falkland & Gulf conflicts of course where there was British involvement and loss of life incurred    )

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DocDock
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So, once again her rubbish deal was defeated. No surprises there, her deal is dead in the water. I just hope the same happens again for the no deal vote tonight, which leaves the extension option on the table.

I’ve said it before but the only democratic option left i can see is putting it back to the people by means of another vote. Other than the loons from ERG and some other MPs nobody wants a catastrophic no deal so that leaves two options, a revised Brexit deal and remain. I know which way i would vote.

Corbyn really has missed an open goal though by not ramping up talk of a second referendum last night.
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FishOutOfWater
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Quoted from DocDock
So, once again her rubbish deal was defeated. No surprises there, her deal is dead in the water. I just hope the same happens again for the no deal vote tonight, which leaves the extension option on the table.

I’ve said it before but the only democratic option left i can see is putting it back to the people by means of another vote. Other than the loons from ERG and some other MPs nobody wants a catastrophic no deal so that leaves two options, a revised Brexit deal and remain. I know which way i would vote.

Corbyn really has missed an open goal though by not ramping up talk of a second referendum last night.


I thought it has already been cleared up what will happen now, given what TM has said in the past, you know...."No deal is better than a bad deal"

Surely you have to take her at her word, don't you?  

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grimsby pete
March 13, 2019, 2:27pm Report to Moderator

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No the MP's will have a third chance to vote on her deal Tim,

You know the old saying, if you first do not succeed  

What  the rest of the world  thinks of us does not bear thinking about.


                           Over 33 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
                           65 Years following the Town
                            Ian Holloway's  Black and White Army.
                                                UTMM

 
                            
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Rodley Mariner
March 13, 2019, 8:19pm Report to Moderator
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I heard a Brexiteer on the radio this morning saying we should exit with no deal and in the event of food shortages we could all grow potatoes and catch rabbits. They didn't put that on any flipping buses did they?!
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Marinerz93
March 13, 2019, 8:24pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
Hey Marinerz93, since you seemed to think the previous facts I produced where out of date (when they weren't), here is another factual confirmation that you have been talking bolloxs

https://fullfact.org/europe/vi.....8dXCM9X89oCoJQo3pdkQ

Of particular note, it states:
UK law also states that no such common EU defence powers can be handed from the UK to the EU without the approval of parliament and a referendum on the decision.


No European Army,



Tell me what you believe Federalism is because the EU is becoming more and more federal.



Using your listed site take a gander at "Is the UK trading at its biggest loss for decades?"



I can throw insults too you EU flag waving idiot sandwich



There are pro's and cons to being in the EU no shadow of doubt, one of the life lessons I learned from a great mentor was don't just judge people on how they treat you, look at how they treat others. Tell me how this life lesson weights up with the way the EU threatens the likes of Poland, Hungry, Czech Republic over the immigration crisis, the EU shafted Greece, no lube required it went in dry. The same fate would have happened to Ireland if the UK hadn't bailed them out. Still there must be a veto or card somewhere we can flash at those un elected bureaucrats to take notice of, won't they.



The EU isn't corrupt and is financially sound, no money is wasted at all ever, moving offices from one country to the other that costs millions doesn't happen anymore, does it.

[



Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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GrimRob
March 13, 2019, 8:42pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Rodley Mariner
I heard a Brexiteer on the radio this morning saying we should exit with no deal and in the event of food shortages we could all grow potatoes and catch rabbits. They didn't put that on any flipping buses did they?!


Let them eat cake, in other words. Vive la republique


'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.  
~ Alfred Lord Tennyson

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ska face
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I’d join an EU Army tomorrow if they handed me a gun & told me to shoot brexiteers  
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KingstonMariner
March 14, 2019, 12:11am Report to Moderator
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I see Mr 'I'm hiding my assets in Ireland for when it goes mammaries up' Rees-Mogg has come out with a pearler tonight.

“This vote is very interesting, and the Government may or may not pay attention to it, but it is not binding, it is not law,” he said.

Much like the referendum then Mr Mogg.  He has a convenient memory loss on the constitution of This Great Country when it suits.


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I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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KingstonMariner
March 14, 2019, 12:16am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from grimsby pete


What ever happens stay or leave we will get over it,

The country will unite once more like after a war.

Well it feels like a war don't you think ?


Usually Pete, it's wars that unite the country. We tend to fall out when peace comes. I personally think it'll be a long time before we unite again.

So the best hope then is for the Argies to have a go again....oh wait we hven't got any planes for our aircraft carrier...you'll just have to hang on for a few more years Diego. You know, mañana, ho ho, mañana. [Sorry I came over all Boris Johnson then].


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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KingstonMariner
March 14, 2019, 12:26am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Roast Em Bobby


I found the bit about Brexiteers more likely to believe 'authoritarian figures' funny, especially as they have more than their fair share of conspiracy theorists who pride themselves on being 'independent thinkers'.


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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KingstonMariner
March 14, 2019, 12:27am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
Hey Marinerz93, since you seemed to think the previous facts I produced where out of date (when they weren't), here is another factual confirmation that you have been talking bolloxs

https://fullfact.org/europe/vi.....8dXCM9X89oCoJQo3pdkQ

Of particular note, it states:
UK law also states that no such common EU defence powers can be handed from the UK to the EU without the approval of parliament and a referendum on the decision.


This deserves a bump. Good read that.


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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Grim74
March 14, 2019, 7:09am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from ska face
I’d join an EU Army tomorrow if they handed me a gun & told me to shoot brexiteers  


I’l be in Parliament square on the 29th expecting to celebrate our departure from this dictatorship, when it’s confirmed we have been betrayed and all the quisling treacherous remoaner’s start to celebrate, It wouldn’t surprise me if it kicks off and I will gladly be slapping the first traitor that I come into contact with and at this point I will imagine it’s you.😆


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Maringer
March 14, 2019, 9:48am Report to Moderator
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You're a funny guy, Grim.

Can't believe it's taken me this long to realise you've just been trolling us all along.

Nobody could seriously write "quisling treacherous remoaner's" (sic) with a straight face.
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AdamHaddock
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Looks like she's bringing it back for another vote  

How about WE have another vote instead?
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KingstonMariner
March 14, 2019, 12:19pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from AdamHaddock
Looks like she's bringing it back for another vote  

How about WE have another vote instead?


She reminds me of my ex-wife. Both are hard working, determined, have attention to detail, genuinely want to serve the common good. All good qualities. Except for the vital ingredient. She does not listen.


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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KingstonMariner
March 14, 2019, 1:08pm Report to Moderator
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Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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FishOutOfWater
March 14, 2019, 1:24pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from KingstonMariner


She reminds me of my ex-wife. Both are hard working, determined, have attention to detail, genuinely want to serve the common good. All good qualities. Except for the vital ingredient. She does not listen.


But was she as good at dancing though?  
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Azimuth
March 14, 2019, 1:25pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from ska face
I’d join an EU Army tomorrow if they handed me a gun & told me to shoot brexiteers  


Then you Sir are clearly a moron who has no understanding of democracy or what this country has always stood for.
Shame on you!
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KingstonMariner
March 14, 2019, 4:29pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Azimuth


Then you Sir are clearly a moron who has no understanding of democracy or what this country has always stood for.
Shame on you!


Have you had a sense of humour bypass? He was clearly joking.


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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KingstonMariner
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Quoted from FishOutOfWater


But was she as good at dancing though?  


No! Maybe it's something about people who can't dance not being able to consult others.  


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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FishOutOfWater
March 14, 2019, 6:06pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from KingstonMariner


No! Maybe it's something about people who can't dance not being able to consult others.  


And side-stepping what matters!  

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Azimuth
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Quoted from KingstonMariner


Have you had a sense of humour bypass? He was clearly joking.


Oh silly me lol hahahah for not realising its a joke to talk about shooting people who dont agree with your political opinion.
There have been millions Murdered throughout history for having a differing opinions and it is NOT something to joke about or take lightly.
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Manchester Mariner
March 14, 2019, 6:38pm Report to Moderator

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Only Patriots and Traitors.


"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
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ska face
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Quoted from Azimuth


Then you Sir are clearly a moron who has no understanding of democracy or what this country has always stood for.
Shame on you!


I’d shoot the Queen for free.
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Marinerz93
March 14, 2019, 7:27pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from ska face
I’d join an EU Army tomorrow if they handed me a gun & told me to shoot brexiteers  


Typical remoaner more likely to shoot yourself in the face which will go some way to help you remoaners with that EU Bukkake fetish you all have, ooooooh Jean Claude give us more federalism, oooooooh verhofstadt I'll join your rainbow EU Army and we can take it in turns at shooting each other in face, remoaners are heard to say, all day long.



Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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ska face
March 15, 2019, 6:41am Report to Moderator

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Freud would have a field day with you.
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KingstonMariner
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Quoted from ska face
Freud would have a field day with you.


It’s quite revealing what he spends time thinking about. Clearly no real people have said such things so .......


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I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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Town Monkey
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Quoted from KingstonMariner


It’s quite revealing what he spends time thinking about. Clearly no real people have said such things so .......


I beg to differ, I'm a remoaner and that is all I say, in between mouthfuls of EU member of course.  
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