Brexit

You got a source for all of that?

flipping scary how shite like that gets trotted out unquestioningly and starts to become 'fact'. Just utter balderdash.

No existing EU member is going to be forced to join the Euro. In fact, with the way it is currently structured, you'd be crazy to join. You can't have a currency union without fiscal transfers between states (as they have in the US) because, if you do, the poorer areas lose out because their currency is overvalued and the wealthy areas benefit from an undervalued currency. The ECB (which is not the EU) has screwed over the likes of Greece and Spain, but will soon discover they can't do the same to Italy who are one of the largest economies in the world (not to mention the main EU manufacturing competitor to Germany). If they want to save the Euro, they will have to change policy. Note, however, that the EU and the Euro are not the same thing - we could quite happily have remained in the EU without ever joining the Euro.

As for your other points, we have the veto (until we leave), so can veto anything you say is going to happen:

Cancel the rebate? Nope, we'll veto that.
Cancel the ability to veto? Nope, we'll veto that.
Set up an EU army? Veto.
In some states, an EU embassy would be a decent money saving ploy but I can't see it being favoured because of the 'soft power' having an embassy gives the UK in many countries. The availability of a diplomatic presence provides back channels to resolve issues and attempt to influence policy. Not to mention, where else would our spooks operate from if we lost the embassies!

Most of your anti-EU arguments are against an EU which doesn't exist at present and couldn't exist if we remained a member and didn't vote for the changes to enable them.

If you want to leave the EU to regain complete sovereignty, then fair enough, that's a reasonable argument. You just have be honest enough to accept that it will mean we are a lot poorer because of it in the future. East European countries are clamouring to join the world's largest, wealthiest and most successful trading bloc. There's a good reason for that.

Quoted from ska face

You got a source for all of that?

Interesting points, how would staying in the EU effect our debt with the EU plans of 2020

1. All EU countries to adopt the Euro - Valdes Dombrovskis, EU Commissioner for the Euro and Social Dialogue, told France 24 that all member states of the European Union have to join the Eurozone eventually. He said: “That's the ultimate goal. If you look at the Treaty, all member states excluding Denmark are actually obliged to join the Euro. When the UK joined the EU it didn't say never, the same as 5 other countries
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/fi.....-adopt-the-euro.html


2. No rebate - The EU’s Budget Commissioner has confirmed that Britain would lose its budget rebate in the highly unlikely scenario that the UK stays in the EU. Gunther Oettinger made it clear that the UK would not keep the “mother of all rebates” if it held a second referendum and decided to stay in the EU: Last time, as part of the 2014-2020 budget negotiations but the mechanisms being put in place will mean the rebate will be dropped

3. No veto on anything including the money demanded from each member state - 12 September 2018 in his annual state of the union address, Jean Claude Juncker said there is a proposal to abolish EU member countries' vetoes on certain tax and foreign policy issues.

4. Contributions and control of our Forces to the EU Army that some people claimed would never be established. - PESCO The Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO) is the part of the European Union's (EU) security and defence policy (CSDP) in which 25 of the 28 national armed forces pursue structural integration. Based on Article 42.6 and Protocol 10 of the Treaty on European Union, introduced by the Treaty of Lisbon in 2009, PESCO was first initiated in 2017. The initial integration within the PESCO format is a number of projects planned to launch in 2018, have you heard of mission creep, you'll understand where things go when Military's get involved

5. Loss of embassies around the world as they are replaced by an EU one and EU foreign policy - More than 50 European Union embassies have opened across the world since the Lisbon Treaty came into force, Mats Persson, director of the Open Europe think tank, said the new EU embassies would, for "all practical purposes", take over the job of representing Britons on the world stage. "Common EU embassies means that Britain can be overruled on crucial diplomatic matters, such as on how to respond to human rights abuses in a conflict-ridden country,"

It is all encapsulated in the Lisbon Treaty -  A more Federal EU with less sovereignty and more power transferred to the EU, basically you'll do what the un-elected bureaucrats decide is right for us, and it'll cost far more than we would ever stand to lose under a hard Brexit

We were warned of the EU plans for an EU army it is now happening, we were warned about EU embassys there are over 50 now. We were warned that the EU is becoming more and more federal and we are seeing more and more power transferred to the EU as countries become less sovereign.

Scary excrement indeed, is a Federal EU good for Britain. Especially when you have the likes of Verhofstadt and Juncker at the driving wheel



Veto you say

Quoted from Rodley Mariner

flipping scary how shite like that gets trotted out unquestioningly and starts to become 'fact'. Just utter balderdash.

EU Army was balderdash

EU embassy's where balderdash

Sometimes you have to look past the balderdash to know what the time is

Quoted from Maringer

Most of your anti-EU arguments are against an EU which doesn't exist at present and couldn't exist if we remained a member and didn't vote for the changes to enable them.

If you want to leave the EU to regain complete sovereignty, then fair enough, that's a reasonable argument. You just have be honest enough to accept that it will mean we are a lot poorer because of it in the future. East European countries are clamouring to join the world's largest, wealthiest and most successful trading bloc. There's a good reason for that.

More power transferred to a 2020 Federal EU under the Lisbon treaty will have more power to do what it wants and we'll end up paying more, either way we will be poorer which ever angle you are coming from. The difference for me is we elect who we want to bring about the changes we want and we can get rid of those who effect our lives in a negative way, can we do this with the EU commission, simply no. EU laws and regulations will be passed and we'll have no veto if we remain pretty much as they do now. We oppose so many of their reforms that aren't good for the UK but they still get passed. Again I point to the EU Army, you know the one you said will never happen.

How many of these extremely poor Eastern European countries will be paying into the EU, the reason why they are clambering to join is the money they will get, a simple fact. Of the current 27 EU countries how many pay in 5, 10 maybe, lets talk about France and their rebate of £10 Billion under CAP, how much do they pay in again. Who do you think they will milk for more money.

Verhofstadt and Junker are the drivers behind all this and their plans of a EU Army and EU embassy's all came to fruition we know some of what they are planning next and I'll guess we'll only have to wait another year or so to see if their other plans come to fruition as well, remember we were warned before and people opposed it and argued against but they went full steam and now they have them. What will they do with more transferred power in a more Federal EU.

Most of the EU countries are in NATO anyway so if they were attacked we would be obliged to come to their rescue. So in effect, there already is a combined army as we are all on the same "side" and watch one another's backs. Armies are becoming increasingly irrelevant in today's world in which you can carry out more effective attacks from afar and far less traceability.

It should be ringing alarm bells that Vladimir Putin thinks we should press ahead with Brexit but it won’t.

Quoted from Gaffer58

Just tell the Germans that BMW's, Audis, Volkswagens are all going to be subject to new tariffs, see how quickly they want to do a deal then.

Yeah. That tactic's really worked hasn't it.