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Posted by: johnsmith450, November 8, 2018, 9:57am


Hello, I am interested in collecting the views and opinions of identity and belonging in the EU referendum, for a survey I am doing. Should only take 5minutes and I would be very grateful.


https://s.surveyplanet.com/z-CDvszcv
Posted by: KingstonMariner, November 10, 2018, 2:30pm; Reply: 1
Done. I'm probably an outlier being in the 55-64 age bracket, and a British patriot who's a remainer.  ;D
Posted by: Marinerz93, November 10, 2018, 6:35pm; Reply: 2
Quoted from KingstonMariner
Done. I'm probably an outlier being in the 55-64 age bracket, and a British patriot who's a remainer.  ;D


How can you be a patriot if you are prepared for non elected foreign bureaucrats to make our laws and regulations especially as our government has apposed some of those regulations as they are not in our national interests.

A patriot is a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.
Posted by: Skrill, November 11, 2018, 11:00am; Reply: 3
Quoted from Marinerz93
A patriot is a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.


I'd go even more, a Patriot also defends their nations from tyrannical government.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, November 11, 2018, 5:07pm; Reply: 4
Quoted from Marinerz93


How can you be a patriot if you are prepared for non elected foreign bureaucrats to make our laws and regulations especially as our government has apposed some of those regulations as they are not in our national interests.

A patriot is a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.


This country isn't truly independent outside the EU. We're a pawn in the American empire. That much has been obvious since 1956 (Suez). At least we get a say in the EU, as opposed to just consuming news of meaningless American elections. Your sort of misguided patriot would just have us kowtowing to another empire.

Also a real patriot realises there is more than one way to promote the interests of your compatriots. Nationalists fail to see that. For them it's just one shibboleth of the 'independent nation state'. A 19th century myth.
Posted by: grimsby pete, November 15, 2018, 2:56pm; Reply: 5
Turning into a bit of a mess don't you think ?

What's going to happen next ?

Leadership vote, 2nd reforendem or even general election,

What a farce it is turning out to be.
Posted by: Maringer, November 15, 2018, 5:41pm; Reply: 6
Quoted from grimsby pete

Leadership vote, 2nd reforendem or even general election,


Yes, at least one of those and probably all three. Some of them possibly more than once!

It was always going to be a farce, because the referendum was so stupidly conceived by Cameron and so didn't make any attempt to explain or clarify what 'Brexit' actually meant. Most people didn't have a clue what the Customs Union or Single Market meant to the economy, the difficulties leaving them or the things the EU funded in the UK but instead thought all that was involved was the inane tabloid bullet points about 'immigrants' and 'getting our money back'. I'd guess 90% of leavers didn't have any idea of what the ramifications might be - probably a similar proportion of remainers, too, for that matter.

The 'deal' was never going to be anything but a BRINO (Brexit in Name Only) because May cut her own throat by delivering Article 50 before any discussion of what Brexit actually meant, any plans were made or behind the scenes negotiations had taken place. This isn't a party political point, either, as Corbyn was apparently agitating to deliver Article 50 even sooner. Handing all the cards to the people you're trying to negotiate with is really a very bad idea.

With clowns such as Davis (who couldn't think his way out of a paper bag), Fox (somebody who previously had to resign from Government in disgrace for dishonest behaviour), Johnson (ego-maniac who cares about nothing but his own career) and 'Dover is an important port?' Raab running the show, is it really any surprise that nothing which could be considered any sort of a 'good deal' has been secured? Especially when May is so weak that she's beholden to the creationist nutjobs of the DUP, not to mention the looniest fringes of her own party.

If ever there was an example of a failing state, we're it.
Posted by: barralad, November 15, 2018, 6:00pm; Reply: 7
I see the blame game is in full swing on Social Media and t.v.
The likes of Andrea Leadsom, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson who you couldn't keep out of the media during the Referendum campaign bottled out when the chance to lead fell practically into their laps. Leadsom even backed out of a two horse race to replace Cameron.
I just heard May say she has no regrets over calling the election in 2017. Events of the last few days show how important to her master plan a big Commons majority for the Tories was. I grudgingly admire her efforts today but she will surely go down as one of if not the worst P.M.s ever.
Posted by: LH, November 15, 2018, 6:18pm; Reply: 8
Imagine how incompetent you must be as a Prime Minister to take that particular crown off Cameron himself who started this balderdash and disappeared to a pig farm or whereever it is he’s gone.
Posted by: grimsby pete, November 15, 2018, 6:38pm; Reply: 9
Quoted from LH
Imagine how incompetent you must be as a Prime Minister to take that particular crown off Cameron himself who started this balderdash and disappeared to a pig farm or whereever it is he’s gone.


The problem with Cameron was he was such a smug ba@tard he thought giving the country a vote to leave or stay was a big vote winner,

Never for one second did he think we would vote leave,

Then when we did he said he has had enough of politics and fooked off.

Now we hear not only him but that other pillock Blair might come back to save the world.

You have to laugh at the arrogant twits.
Posted by: Rodley Mariner, November 15, 2018, 7:21pm; Reply: 10
He didn't think it was a big vote winner, he thought it would end the squabbling in the Tory party and bring it back together. Going well isn't it?

Still, Brexit means Brexit, take back control, back off Brussels, no more straight bananas and if you don't support it you are a traitor and should be hanged accordingly.

Edit - you're right that Cameron was a smug, arrogant, entitled sharp object. He  carries far more blame than May for this farce as far as I'm concerned.
Posted by: Rodley Mariner, November 15, 2018, 7:26pm; Reply: 11
Anybody think this could actually be the start of the end of the Tory party. I'm not sure I see a way they can come back together to even claim to offer any coherent sort of political offer when so many clearly loathe each other.
Posted by: LH, November 15, 2018, 7:55pm; Reply: 12
It could well be. Imagine what the coalition of chaos headed by Ed Miliband would have been like if this is strong and stable under May.
Posted by: Manchester Mariner, November 15, 2018, 10:16pm; Reply: 13
She's absolutely batshit mental to power on with her draft plan which has zero support.
Posted by: Maringer, November 15, 2018, 10:34pm; Reply: 14
Doesn't really have any choice though, does she?

She's stuck in the job even though she's a dead woman walking, so to speak. Losing the majority in the election which she didn't need to call ended all her authority and left absolutely no wriggle-room in the negotiations, especially as she's surrounded by mediocrities and imbeciles who are all either massively self-serving (Johnson and Gove, especially) or just there marking time until they are moved on. It's a spinning door at the DExEU. As soon as the backstop agreement was signed last year, this 'deal' was the best that could be hoped for outside of a Norway-style deal which, of course, most of the Tory brexiteers wouldn't accept.

If she wasn't so horribly useless and inept (after being the same as Home Secretary), I'd almost feel sorry for her.
Posted by: Rodley Mariner, November 15, 2018, 10:54pm; Reply: 15
They must all have borderline (or not so borderline) sociopathic tendencies plus huge egos. May is a very wealthy woman in her 60's. If I was in her shoes then halfway through today's commons debacle I'd have said words to the effect of 'intercourse this for a game of soldiers, let's see one of you fornicators do any better' and strolled off to book a holiday.

I am genuinely struggling to see how this plays out. Good old Call me Dave.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, November 15, 2018, 10:58pm; Reply: 16
Well what the whole thing beautifully portrays is how well we will do as an independent trading nation negotiating deals with the big powers. Little old Ireland gets one over big, powerful Britain because it's part of a big gang and we're not.

I seem to remember the Brexiteers telling us how we'll get a free trade deal without any of the ties and restrictions. All through the referendum campaign. We can be out but still have the trade benefits because 'they need us'. Well that worked out well, you flipping muppets.

Next up China and the US. That'll go well.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, November 15, 2018, 11:28pm; Reply: 17
And the reactions to the deal show the ludicrousness of nationalism.

British Nationalists in northern Ireland are decrying the deal because it puts their province in an advantageous economic position vis a vis the rest of the UK. They'd rather their people were worse off.

The Scottish nationalists are decrying it because they want what Northern Ireland has been given. They don't want those buggers over there to have it if they don't. 'It's not fair' they're crying.

What's the way forward? A population swap? All the SNPers go to Ulster and the Democratic Unionists move to Scotland?

How will English and Welsh nationalists react? (they're probably the same people who march down 'our streets' demanding we stand with our 'brethren' in places like Germany and Flanders* and Holland because we're all Europeans and defend our common culture against the Muslim hoards. But we don't wanna stand too close to our brethren because they want to rule us!

* probably not Wallonia though, because they speak French so they're probably lazy and want to burn our New Zealand lamb.

flipping lunatics the lot of them.
Posted by: Maringer, November 16, 2018, 7:11am; Reply: 18
Regarding the SNP, you can see their viewpoint. Just like Northern Ireland, they voted to remain quite solidly. They are having Brexit forced on them because of the votes of the English and the bribes/reneged promises of the Indyref campaign are still fresh in the memory. Why should the Northern Irish get a better deal than them?

The longer term plan (well, a lot shorter term than anticipated) is, of course another shot at independence for them and, considering the shower of shite blundering around in charge on this side of the border, who can really blame them?
Posted by: KingstonMariner, November 16, 2018, 9:16am; Reply: 19
Quoted from Maringer
Regarding the SNP, you can see their viewpoint. Just like Northern Ireland, they voted to remain quite solidly. They are having Brexit forced on them because of the votes of the English and the bribes/reneged promises of the Indyref campaign are still fresh in the memory. Why should the Northern Irish get a better deal than them?

The longer term plan (well, a lot shorter term than anticipated) is, of course another shot at independence for them and, considering the shower of shite blundering around in charge on this side of the border, who can really blame them?


Oh I’ve got no brief for or against the deal. I’m just pointing out where nationalism gets you. If Scotland wants what NI has got then why not England and Wales too.
Posted by: LH, November 16, 2018, 9:25pm; Reply: 20
Amber Rudd back in. Good grief - who votes for this lot?
Posted by: GrimRob, November 16, 2018, 9:59pm; Reply: 21
Hardly anyone is going to be happy with the outcome it would seem. Ironic when all the average Leave voter wanted was a reduction in immigration. Little did they appreciate how difficult it will be to unpick the UK from the EU, and we haven't even started talking about the Repeal Bill yet! At least if we'd have had Remain 49% of people would be happy with the outcome.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, November 16, 2018, 10:18pm; Reply: 22
Has May temporarily united the country? Brexiteers and Remainers don't like the deal.  ;D
Posted by: Les Brechin, December 10, 2018, 2:51pm; Reply: 23
Posted by: grimsby pete, December 10, 2018, 5:20pm; Reply: 24
If anybody can get us out of this mess,

Please forward your idea's to the House of Commons,

Because

All those elected on both sides do not have a clue.
Posted by: forza ivano, December 11, 2018, 8:28pm; Reply: 25
I think there' 5 possibilities
A May knows her deal is Shiite/ shot but delays delays and delays until it's the only option versus no deal and its forced through
B we sleepwalk to no deal
C parliament takes control and forces us ,by a series of convoluted motions and votes into the softest of brexits
D probably the most likely, article 50 is delayed or the e.u . ' stops the clock' to allow us extra time to negotiate further. As the Swiss told us 12 months ago, you will be negotiating with the e.u. Until the end of time I.e. You can check out of the hotel e.u. But you ain't ever going to leave
E somehow a second referendum is forced and we stay in. IMHO this is the best outcome, but even as a staunch remainer, it's the most unsatisfactory outcome
Posted by: KingstonMariner, December 11, 2018, 8:36pm; Reply: 26
Quoted from forza ivano
I think there' 5 possibilities
A May knows her deal is Shiite/ shot but delays delays and delays until it's the only option versus no deal and its forced through
B we sleepwalk to no deal
C parliament takes control and forces us ,by a series of convoluted motions and votes into the softest of brexits
D probably the most likely, article 50 is delayed or the e.u . ' stops the clock' to allow us extra time to negotiate further. As the Swiss told us 12 months ago, you will be negotiating with the e.u. Until the end of time I.e. You can check out of the hotel e.u. But you ain't ever going to leave
E somehow a second referendum is forced and we stay in. IMHO this is the best outcome, but even as a staunch remainer, it's the most unsatisfactory outcome


A lot of Brexiteers see no problem with option B.

If that happens I'm gonna spend the rest of my life telling them 'it was all your fault'.
Posted by: ska face, December 11, 2018, 8:39pm; Reply: 27


Best case scenario.
Posted by: LH, December 11, 2018, 9:01pm; Reply: 28
May looks set to face Tory no confidence vote according to Twitter rumours. Strong and stable. Strong and stable. Strong and stable.
Posted by: DocDock, December 12, 2018, 8:45am; Reply: 29
Vote of no confidence is on. “...and it’s live!”



Annoyingly like a cockroach i think she’ll survive this vote tonight. Even if she does survive, surely Corbyn has to step up and call a vote of no confidence in her and her government. What an absolute clusterfuck  this whole Brexit process has been.
Posted by: forza ivano, December 12, 2018, 10:29am; Reply: 30
Quoted from ska face
  • May comes back next week with the EU having told her to bolllocks. She can’t dress up the same terrible deal
  • Deal gets voted down and GE is called
  • Article 50 extended, Labour win election and negotiate deal on their terms rather than the ridiculous red lines May has set out
  • Labour run 2nd referendum on either their deal or remain


Best case scenario.

no way a general election is happening - Tory MPs are like turkeys, they ain't going to vote for Xmas!
Posted by: Town Monkey, December 12, 2018, 2:37pm; Reply: 31
I think if May goes tonight or tomorrow we'll have a Brexiteer PM and No Deal looks remarkably likely.  In which case, I think we'll all live to regret it.  
Posted by: hheh2, December 12, 2018, 3:27pm; Reply: 32
Will Grimsby get a fishing port again with no deal Brexit.
Posted by: Town Monkey, December 12, 2018, 3:39pm; Reply: 33
Very unlikely hheh2.  Even if we do, and I doubt it would be for a while, it won't make up for the massive losses elsewhere in the country due to the turmoil caused by falling out of the single market and the customs union.  A few days ago, I couldn't see no deal really being an option but now, who knows.
Posted by: grimsby pete, December 12, 2018, 4:16pm; Reply: 34
Quoted from hheh2
Will Grimsby get a fishing port again with no deal Brexit.


My brother in law who went to sea when we had a fishing fleet told me IF we did get our waters back WHO out of the younger generation would want to go to sea and work in those dreadful conditions that he put up with.

Good Question .
Posted by: forza ivano, December 12, 2018, 8:01pm; Reply: 35
Quoted from grimsby pete


My brother in law who went to sea when we had a fishing fleet told me IF we did get our waters back WHO out of the younger generation would want to go to sea and work in those dreadful conditions that he put up with.

Good Question .


Indeed. And who would we sell our fish to? Most goes to the e.u. Who would demand access to fishing grounds in exchange for tariff fee sale of our fish to their market. There isn't any easy answers in this game no matter what fox, Davies and Johnson say
Posted by: GrimRob, December 12, 2018, 9:35pm; Reply: 36
There's nothing stopping UK people fishing now. We have to compete with the other countries for quotas, but it's not as though we are excluded from the nearby fishing territories.
Posted by: Gaffer58, December 13, 2018, 6:42pm; Reply: 37
Just tell the Germans that BMW's, Audis, Volkswagens are all going to be subject to new tariffs, see how quickly they want to do a deal then.
Posted by: arryarryarry, December 14, 2018, 4:17am; Reply: 38
Quoted from Maringer


Yes, at least one of those and probably all three. Some of them possibly more than once!

It was always going to be a farce, because the referendum was so stupidly conceived by Cameron and so didn't make any attempt to explain or clarify what 'Brexit' actually meant. Most people didn't have a clue what the Customs Union or Single Market meant to the economy, the difficulties leaving them or the things the EU funded in the UK but instead thought all that was involved was the inane tabloid bullet points about 'immigrants' and 'getting our money back'. I'd guess 90% of leavers didn't have any idea of what the ramifications might be - probably a similar proportion of remainers, too, for that matter.

The 'deal' was never going to be anything but a BRINO (Brexit in Name Only) because May cut her own throat by delivering Article 50 before any discussion of what Brexit actually meant, any plans were made or behind the scenes negotiations had taken place. This isn't a party political point, either, as Corbyn was apparently agitating to deliver Article 50 even sooner. Handing all the cards to the people you're trying to negotiate with is really a very bad idea.

With clowns such as Davis (who couldn't think his way out of a paper bag), Fox (somebody who previously had to resign from Government in disgrace for dishonest behaviour), Johnson (ego-maniac who cares about nothing but his own career) and 'Dover is an important port?' Raab running the show, is it really any surprise that nothing which could be considered any sort of a 'good deal' has been secured? Especially when May is so weak that she's beholden to the creationist nutjobs of the DUP, not to mention the looniest fringes of her own party.

If ever there was an example of a failing state, we're it.


If I asked you to give me £10 and I gave you back £5 for an ice cream would you go dancing down the road shouting "look I've been given some money for an ice cream"(bash)

Nice to see the remainers response by insulting those who want to leave the EU, what a great way to try to bring people together.(protest)
Posted by: arryarryarry, December 14, 2018, 4:24am; Reply: 39
Quoted from ska face
  • May comes back next week with the EU having told her to bolllocks. She can’t dress up the same terrible deal
  • Deal gets voted down and GE is called
  • Article 50 extended, Labour win election and negotiate deal on their terms rather than the ridiculous red lines May has set out
  • Labour run 2nd referendum on either their deal or remain


Best case scenario.


I thought the EU have said the deal we have now been given is the only deal on offer and will not be changed.

Also who really knows what the Labour Party want, Corbyn has been anti-EU for all his political life also those 6 tests which include staying in a customs union and aligned to the single market would mean continued free movement and contributions to the EU budget. You may as well stay in the EU ??)
Posted by: 1mickylyons, December 14, 2018, 9:28am; Reply: 40
A sorry mess and quite clear the vast majority of politicians had no idea what the General Public would do when the Referendum took place. They simply appear to be either woefully out of touch with large swathes of the electorate or more likely don`t give a fcuk? Now having received a punch on the nose they have no intention whatsoever of delivering what Joe Public voted for. I hope should the likely 2nd Referndum take place the full 33M remember how this lot have treat democracy and give them a severe pummelling and Vote Leave again in far bigger numbers.
Posted by: ska face, December 14, 2018, 9:58am; Reply: 41
Quoted from arryarryarry


I thought the EU have said the deal we have now been given is the only deal on offer and will not be changed.


Well not quite. It’s the only deal the Tories are gonna get, given that they’re determined to undercut the EU on things like workers’ rights, safety and environmental standards. The EU is a neoliberal protection racket so they’re not going to accept a European Singapore 12 miles from the continent. It’s certainly the only deal May’s going to get, as she’s been told again this morning (is that the 4th time now?), so this can-kicking can’t be allowed to continue.

Quoted Text
Also who really knows what the Labour Party want, Corbyn has been anti-EU for all his political life also those 6 tests which include staying in a customs union and aligned to the single market would mean continued free movement and contributions to the EU budget. You may as well stay in the EU ??)


Again, not really. There are major aspects of Labour’s manifesto - like renationalising the railways - which are impossible within the EU and with May’s deal given the EU stipulations on state aid. These policies are incredibly popular with the general public (nationalising water polls about 75% in favour, iirc), but it won’t happen within the EU bosses’ club or under the party of millionaires. Corbyn’s always wanted out for reasons like these, so it’s only right that he’s given the opportunity to work out a deal on that basis.

The “freedom of movement” argument is always a (deliberately imo) vague one, where lots of concerns are all bundled into one and placed on migrants. Issues like wage suppression could be tackled with less restrictive trade union legislation. Issues with refugees from places like Libya and Syria might be alleviated if we weren’t going around blowing these poor fucckers’ countries to dust, just a thought.


Anyway, May’s coming back empty handed AGAIN, so we’ll see what happens from here.
Posted by: MarinerBen, December 14, 2018, 10:45am; Reply: 42
Quoted from Gaffer58
Just tell the Germans that BMW's, Audis, Volkswagens are all going to be subject to new tariffs, see how quickly they want to do a deal then.


Increase tariffs on imported vehicles, and reduce tax on UK manufactured models. We need to start buying British and stop sending out money abroad. I'm thinking Jaguar next if they don't abandon us.
Posted by: grimsby pete, December 14, 2018, 12:40pm; Reply: 43
I was looking at who pays what and how much they get  out of the E U budget

We are one that pays more and 18 yes 18 get more out than they put in.


Well I for one can think of lots of ways we can spend our money on rather than give it away,

Awaits Marringer  to come back with a six page explanation of why its better to stay in.

Also the more I listen to Tony Blair who keeps coming up with his views the more I want to leave.

Leave now without a deal and keep the £39 billion
Posted by: GrimRob, December 14, 2018, 1:34pm; Reply: 44
It's too simple to say we pay in x amount and get y back. It's impossible to quantify the benefit of being in the EU and how good a value it represents. I think our net contribution is less than 0.5% of our GDP so although the amount of money sounds a lot it's only a very small slice of the pie.
Posted by: grimsby pete, December 14, 2018, 2:31pm; Reply: 45
Quoted from GrimRob
It's too simple to say we pay in x amount and get y back. It's impossible to quantify the benefit of being in the EU and how good a value it represents. I think our net contribution is less than 0.5% of our GDP so although the amount of money sounds a lot it's only a very small slice of the pie.


Well the £11 billion or whatever it is now could be spent on looking after our own people that are in need rather than giving it to 18 other countries.
Posted by: GrimRob, December 14, 2018, 3:54pm; Reply: 46
Quoted from grimsby pete


Well the £11 billion or whatever it is now could be spent on looking after our own people that are in need rather than giving it to 18 other countries.


You're assuming that everything else will remain the same except the 11 billion will be saved. Even if that were true it's barely going to make a dent on government spending or paying off the national debt.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html
Posted by: ska face, December 14, 2018, 5:01pm; Reply: 47
Quoted from grimsby pete


Well the £11 billion or whatever it is now could be spent on looking after our own people that are in need rather than giving it to 18 other countries.


Can never get my head around this lazy way of thinking. Like Rob said, you can’t reduce the argument to a simple “we pay x, they get y” statement.

Look at the NHS for example. Almost 6% of NHS staff are EU nationals from outside the UK, about 63,000 people. The UK benefits from their labour and expertise without having spent a single penny on their schooling or training until they walked into the country. How much does it cost to train a doctor or a nurse or school and raise someone that now comes and pays taxes in the UK? Try amount that times 63,000. THAT’S the benefit of being in the EU, as that money saved CAN be spent “looking after our own”, as people like to say.

And that’s just one tiny example from an innumerable amount.

Posted by: grimsby pete, December 14, 2018, 7:49pm; Reply: 48
Quoted from GrimRob


You're assuming that everything else will remain the same except the 11 billion will be saved. Even if that were true it's barely going to make a dent on government spending or paying off the national debt.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html


Sorry Rob you will have to explain  that clock to me because it doe not make any sense  its just a lot of figures going up and up,

Plus the % thing do not tally up when you look at other countries figures.
Posted by: GrimRob, December 14, 2018, 10:53pm; Reply: 49
It shows the total debt of each country. Here's one just for the UK which shows the eye-watering amount of debt.

https://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/unitedkingdom

We're living totally beyond our means in this country and it's a struggle to even keep up with the interest payments on our debt. With the added problem of an aging population, immigration is required just to keep taxes down on those who do work.

Your 11bn, even if it magically turns up in the chancellor's war chest, and everything else someone is unaffected, is very unlikely to make much appreciable difference to real people.
Posted by: grimsby pete, December 15, 2018, 1:06pm; Reply: 50
I understand the national debt part Rob it was the % bit at the end that confused me,

China has a similar debt to us but their % was way lower than ours,

Would be pleased if somebody can explain that bit,

Seeing all countries are billions and billions in the red I don't think it matters if we spend more than we earn.

Where is all this money owed to ? the pile must be way beyond the moon by now if you stack it all on top of each other.
Posted by: GrimRob, December 15, 2018, 1:48pm; Reply: 51
China's debt is only 14% of their GDP, ours is 94%. In theory, we can pay it back with economic growth, something that is very difficult to sustain indefinitely, especially if we do things like leaving the EU and why no government ever tackles the issue of immigration (one of the easiest ways to get growth is just to increase your working age population). We haven't recovered from the last recession in 2008, the next one could be a good deal worse.
Posted by: grimsby pete, December 15, 2018, 1:55pm; Reply: 52
Quoted from GrimRob
China's debt is only 14% of their GDP, ours is 94%. In theory, we can pay it back with economic growth, something that is very difficult to sustain indefinitely, especially if we do things like leaving the EU and why no government ever tackles the issue of immigration (one of the easiest ways to get growth is just to increase your working age population). We haven't recovered from the last recession in 2008, the next one could be a good deal worse.


Got it now Rob thanks.

The old grey cells are disappearing and not been replaced now.(wheelchair)
Posted by: Maringer, December 15, 2018, 3:59pm; Reply: 53
Bear in mind that approximately a quarter of the national debt is actually the £435 billion created by QE which is owed to the Bank of England. Who owns the Bank of England? Well, it's the UK government! One part of the UK government 'owes' over £400 billion to another part of the government. Is it really possible to owe yourself money? How many know that the interest paid on the bonds created during QE goes to pay off the national debt!

Another thing to recall is that the UK national debt is denominated in Sterling. The UK government is the sole issuer of Sterling (although they authorise UK banks to create Sterling) so we can never run out of money. The countries that people use as scare stories (Zimbabwe, Venezuela etc) about inflation don't borrow in their own currency - they borrow in other currencies over which they have no control (usually USD). When we need to pay interest on debt in Sterling, we can just create the money to do so and the only place it can then ultimately be spent is the UK.

Finally, who owns the debt is important. About half is owned by UK institutions, banks, pension funds and individuals. The interest paid is then retained in the UK. It also provides a reliable investment opportunity for pension funds and the like.

The Tory justification for austerity in 2010 was entirely spurious. If your national debt gallops out of control, you've got something to be concerned about. Ours didn't (quite), despite the financial crisis. The fact that the UK government is selling long term gilts at rates effectively below inflation is very telling - investors are basically willing to lose money to keep a reliable income stream from the interest.
Posted by: grimsby pete, December 15, 2018, 5:38pm; Reply: 54
Thanks Maringer very interesting.
Posted by: ginnywings, December 16, 2018, 2:12am; Reply: 55
The Tory party always have and always will tear themselves apart over Europe. Pig face Cameron thought to himself " i know what to do, i will give the electorate a referendum, as they are bound to vote for us to stay in, therefore shutting up the Tory Euro sceptics, unite the party, and strengthen my position as leader, while strengthening the Tory party's power in office". What could possibly go wrong?

"They voted to leave you say"? Oops! "Where's the exit door"?

"I've just got time to throw this hand grenade over my shoulder on the way out"

"Theresa May caught it did she; Isn't she a staunch remainer"?  ::)

Never mind, Boris and Rees will save the party and the country, when the conditions are more conducive to their political ambitions that is. Not yet mind, not until the make weights have been laid asunder by Brexit.

All the while, the country is suffering. Record homelessness, universal credit decimating already desperate people, and the only growth seems to be in the bank accounts of the elite. Food banks being the only other growth area. At least we are getting rid of those pesky foreigners at home and abroad.

Rule Britania!
Posted by: Mrs Doyle, December 16, 2018, 5:46am; Reply: 56
This guy nails it for me as one of the "poor Basturds" this is exactly how I see it.



https://www.facebook.com/JonathanPieReporter/videos/2186117708277471/
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, December 17, 2018, 1:19pm; Reply: 57
Quoted from MarinerBen


Increase tariffs on imported vehicles, and reduce tax on UK manufactured models. We need to start buying British and stop sending out money abroad. I'm thinking Jaguar next if they don't abandon us.


In case you're unaware,  Jaguar/Land Rover is owned by the Indian company Tata

Posted by: grimsby pete, December 17, 2018, 7:23pm; Reply: 58
Just buy cars that are made in our country  simple  8)
Posted by: Marinerz93, December 19, 2018, 8:32am; Reply: 59
Quoted from Maringer
Bear in mind that approximately a quarter of the national debt is actually the £435 billion created by QE which is owed to the Bank of England. Who owns the Bank of England? Well, it's the UK government! One part of the UK government 'owes' over £400 billion to another part of the government. Is it really possible to owe yourself money? How many know that the interest paid on the bonds created during QE goes to pay off the national debt!

Another thing to recall is that the UK national debt is denominated in Sterling. The UK government is the sole issuer of Sterling (although they authorise UK banks to create Sterling) so we can never run out of money. The countries that people use as scare stories (Zimbabwe, Venezuela etc) about inflation don't borrow in their own currency - they borrow in other currencies over which they have no control (usually USD). When we need to pay interest on debt in Sterling, we can just create the money to do so and the only place it can then ultimately be spent is the UK.

Finally, who owns the debt is important. About half is owned by UK institutions, banks, pension funds and individuals. The interest paid is then retained in the UK. It also provides a reliable investment opportunity for pension funds and the like.

The Tory justification for austerity in 2010 was entirely spurious. If your national debt gallops out of control, you've got something to be concerned about. Ours didn't (quite), despite the financial crisis. The fact that the UK government is selling long term gilts at rates effectively below inflation is very telling - investors are basically willing to lose money to keep a reliable income stream from the interest.


Interesting points, how would staying in the EU effect our debt with the EU plans of 2020

1. All EU countries to adopt the Euro
2. No rebate
3. No veto on anything including the money demanded from each member state
4. Contributions and control of our Forces to the EU Army that some people claimed would never be established.
5. Loss of embassies around the world as they are replaced by an EU one and EU foreign policy
Posted by: ska face, December 19, 2018, 9:01am; Reply: 60
You got a source for all of that?
Posted by: Rodley Mariner, December 19, 2018, 11:00am; Reply: 61
flipping scary how shite like that gets trotted out unquestioningly and starts to become 'fact'. Just utter balderdash.
Posted by: Maringer, December 19, 2018, 11:08am; Reply: 62
No existing EU member is going to be forced to join the Euro. In fact, with the way it is currently structured, you'd be crazy to join. You can't have a currency union without fiscal transfers between states (as they have in the US) because, if you do, the poorer areas lose out because their currency is overvalued and the wealthy areas benefit from an undervalued currency. The ECB (which is not the EU) has screwed over the likes of Greece and Spain, but will soon discover they can't do the same to Italy who are one of the largest economies in the world (not to mention the main EU manufacturing competitor to Germany). If they want to save the Euro, they will have to change policy. Note, however, that the EU and the Euro are not the same thing - we could quite happily have remained in the EU without ever joining the Euro.

As for your other points, we have the veto (until we leave), so can veto anything you say is going to happen:

Cancel the rebate? Nope, we'll veto that.
Cancel the ability to veto? Nope, we'll veto that.
Set up an EU army? Veto.
In some states, an EU embassy would be a decent money saving ploy but I can't see it being favoured because of the 'soft power' having an embassy gives the UK in many countries. The availability of a diplomatic presence provides back channels to resolve issues and attempt to influence policy. Not to mention, where else would our spooks operate from if we lost the embassies!

Most of your anti-EU arguments are against an EU which doesn't exist at present and couldn't exist if we remained a member and didn't vote for the changes to enable them.

If you want to leave the EU to regain complete sovereignty, then fair enough, that's a reasonable argument. You just have be honest enough to accept that it will mean we are a lot poorer because of it in the future. East European countries are clamouring to join the world's largest, wealthiest and most successful trading bloc. There's a good reason for that.
Posted by: Marinerz93, December 19, 2018, 5:33pm; Reply: 63
Quoted from ska face
You got a source for all of that?


Interesting points, how would staying in the EU effect our debt with the EU plans of 2020

1. All EU countries to adopt the Euro - Valdes Dombrovskis, EU Commissioner for the Euro and Social Dialogue, told France 24 that all member states of the European Union have to join the Eurozone eventually. He said: “That's the ultimate goal. If you look at the Treaty, all member states excluding Denmark are actually obliged to join the Euro. When the UK joined the EU it didn't say never, the same as 5 other countries
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10935617/After-2020-all-EU-members-will-have-to-adopt-the-euro.html


2. No rebate - The EU’s Budget Commissioner has confirmed that Britain would lose its budget rebate in the highly unlikely scenario that the UK stays in the EU. Gunther Oettinger made it clear that the UK would not keep the “mother of all rebates” if it held a second referendum and decided to stay in the EU: Last time, as part of the 2014-2020 budget negotiations but the mechanisms being put in place will mean the rebate will be dropped

3. No veto on anything including the money demanded from each member state - 12 September 2018 in his annual state of the union address, Jean Claude Juncker said there is a proposal to abolish EU member countries' vetoes on certain tax and foreign policy issues.

4. Contributions and control of our Forces to the EU Army that some people claimed would never be established. - PESCO The Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO) is the part of the European Union's (EU) security and defence policy (CSDP) in which 25 of the 28 national armed forces pursue structural integration. Based on Article 42.6 and Protocol 10 of the Treaty on European Union, introduced by the Treaty of Lisbon in 2009, PESCO was first initiated in 2017. The initial integration within the PESCO format is a number of projects planned to launch in 2018, have you heard of mission creep, you'll understand where things go when Military's get involved

5. Loss of embassies around the world as they are replaced by an EU one and EU foreign policy - More than 50 European Union embassies have opened across the world since the Lisbon Treaty came into force, Mats Persson, director of the Open Europe think tank, said the new EU embassies would, for "all practical purposes", take over the job of representing Britons on the world stage. "Common EU embassies means that Britain can be overruled on crucial diplomatic matters, such as on how to respond to human rights abuses in a conflict-ridden country,"

It is all encapsulated in the Lisbon Treaty -  A more Federal EU with less sovereignty and more power transferred to the EU, basically you'll do what the un-elected bureaucrats decide is right for us, and it'll cost far more than we would ever stand to lose under a hard Brexit

We were warned of the EU plans for an EU army it is now happening, we were warned about EU embassys there are over 50 now. We were warned that the EU is becoming more and more federal and we are seeing more and more power transferred to the EU as countries become less sovereign.

Scary excrement indeed, is a Federal EU good for Britain. Especially when you have the likes of Verhofstadt and Juncker at the driving wheel



Veto you say




Posted by: Marinerz93, December 19, 2018, 5:40pm; Reply: 64
Quoted from Rodley Mariner
flipping scary how shite like that gets trotted out unquestioningly and starts to become 'fact'. Just utter balderdash.




EU Army was balderdash

EU embassy's where balderdash

Sometimes you have to look past the balderdash to know what the time is

Posted by: Marinerz93, December 19, 2018, 5:59pm; Reply: 65
Quoted from Maringer


Most of your anti-EU arguments are against an EU which doesn't exist at present and couldn't exist if we remained a member and didn't vote for the changes to enable them.

If you want to leave the EU to regain complete sovereignty, then fair enough, that's a reasonable argument. You just have be honest enough to accept that it will mean we are a lot poorer because of it in the future. East European countries are clamouring to join the world's largest, wealthiest and most successful trading bloc. There's a good reason for that.


More power transferred to a 2020 Federal EU under the Lisbon treaty will have more power to do what it wants and we'll end up paying more, either way we will be poorer which ever angle you are coming from. The difference for me is we elect who we want to bring about the changes we want and we can get rid of those who effect our lives in a negative way, can we do this with the EU commission, simply no. EU laws and regulations will be passed and we'll have no veto if we remain pretty much as they do now. We oppose so many of their reforms that aren't good for the UK but they still get passed. Again I point to the EU Army, you know the one you said will never happen.

How many of these extremely poor Eastern European countries will be paying into the EU, the reason why they are clambering to join is the money they will get, a simple fact. Of the current 27 EU countries how many pay in 5, 10 maybe, lets talk about France and their rebate of £10 Billion under CAP, how much do they pay in again. Who do you think they will milk for more money.

Verhofstadt and Junker are the drivers behind all this and their plans of a EU Army and EU embassy's all came to fruition we know some of what they are planning next and I'll guess we'll only have to wait another year or so to see if their other plans come to fruition as well, remember we were warned before and people opposed it and argued against but they went full steam and now they have them. What will they do with more transferred power in a more Federal EU.

Posted by: GrimRob, December 20, 2018, 4:14pm; Reply: 66
Most of the EU countries are in NATO anyway so if they were attacked we would be obliged to come to their rescue. So in effect, there already is a combined army as we are all on the same "side" and watch one another's backs. Armies are becoming increasingly irrelevant in today's world in which you can carry out more effective attacks from afar and far less traceability.
Posted by: LH, December 20, 2018, 5:45pm; Reply: 67
It should be ringing alarm bells that Vladimir Putin thinks we should press ahead with Brexit but it won’t.
Posted by: Rodley Mariner, December 20, 2018, 6:20pm; Reply: 68
https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/messages/christmas/how-to-have-a-gammon-christmas-20181220180744
Posted by: KingstonMariner, December 21, 2018, 11:11pm; Reply: 69
Quoted from Gaffer58
Just tell the Germans that BMW's, Audis, Volkswagens are all going to be subject to new tariffs, see how quickly they want to do a deal then.


Yeah. That tactic's really worked hasn't it.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, December 21, 2018, 11:11pm; Reply: 70
Quoted from Maringer
Bear in mind that approximately a quarter of the national debt is actually the £435 billion created by QE which is owed to the Bank of England. Who owns the Bank of England? Well, it's the UK government! One part of the UK government 'owes' over £400 billion to another part of the government. Is it really possible to owe yourself money? How many know that the interest paid on the bonds created during QE goes to pay off the national debt!

Another thing to recall is that the UK national debt is denominated in Sterling. The UK government is the sole issuer of Sterling (although they authorise UK banks to create Sterling) so we can never run out of money. The countries that people use as scare stories (Zimbabwe, Venezuela etc) about inflation don't borrow in their own currency - they borrow in other currencies over which they have no control (usually USD). When we need to pay interest on debt in Sterling, we can just create the money to do so and the only place it can then ultimately be spent is the UK.

Finally, who owns the debt is important. About half is owned by UK institutions, banks, pension funds and individuals. The interest paid is then retained in the UK. It also provides a reliable investment opportunity for pension funds and the like.

The Tory justification for austerity in 2010 was entirely spurious. If your national debt gallops out of control, you've got something to be concerned about. Ours didn't (quite), despite the financial crisis. The fact that the UK government is selling long term gilts at rates effectively below inflation is very telling - investors are basically willing to lose money to keep a reliable income stream from the interest.


Don't go confusing people with facts. You know it only makes them madder.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, December 21, 2018, 11:16pm; Reply: 71
Why is it when you go out, it's always the Brexiteers that want to bend your ear in the pub and won't shut the intercourse up? Always moaning about 'Remoaners' who apparently won't keep quiet. Yet it's always Brexiteers that drone on* about the whole thing, like some sad illegitimate with a hobby-horse and no mates. Get over yourselves. We'd be a more successful country if you shut the intercourse up and we could all get on with each other and build the new future you bleat on about. But like my ex-wife, you won't let it lie.

* Gatwick reference unintended
Posted by: Marinerz93, December 22, 2018, 10:03am; Reply: 72
Quoted from KingstonMariner
Why is it when you go out, it's always the Brexiteers that want to bend your ear in the pub and won't shut the intercourse up? Always moaning about 'Remoaners' who apparently won't keep quiet. Yet it's always Brexiteers that drone on* about the whole thing, like some sad illegitimate with a hobby-horse and no mates. Get over yourselves. We'd be a more successful country if you shut the intercourse up and we could all get on with each other and build the new future you bleat on about. But like my ex-wife, you won't let it lie.

* Gatwick reference unintended


I would say that depends on the company you keep and the people you mix with. Maybe it's you attracting the Brexiters with you ruining their evening remoaning loudly and sapping the life out of the party, the comment about shutting the intercourse up goes both ways. A democratic vote was taken to leave the EU,  and it seems the anti democratic federalists are the ones that have no grip on the reality of a Federal Europe with more and more power as they control everything in our lives without our consent and the inability to vote the bureaucrats out or the ability to say no.

Unanimity - Unanimity Rule is a voting rule in which decisions are made based on unanimous approval of those casting votes. That is, every voter must cast the same vote. Unanimity is used in elections where there is no room for doubt or disagreement. The veto that remainers cling to is going as Juncter stated in his state of the Union speech, just like the EU army and EU embassys that he said would happen and the happless remainers said would never happen. These plans all came pre 2012 and they are now in place. The EU's final pieces of the jigsaw are coming together and they'll soon have total control in the coming years.

Posted by: grimsby pete, December 22, 2018, 12:43pm; Reply: 73
I would just like to add its the remainers that keep harping on about another referendum,

I also think the EU will blink first when we get nearer the day if they think we are leaving with no deal.

Relax all will be well. 8)
Posted by: KingstonMariner, December 22, 2018, 12:59pm; Reply: 74
Quoted from Marinerz93


I would say that depends on the company you keep and the people you mix with. Maybe it's you attracting the Brexiters with you ruining their evening remoaning loudly and sapping the life out of the party, the comment about shutting the intercourse up goes both ways.


Not at all. I never mention the subject when out socially, but it's always some sad sap who keeps bringing it up whether you know them or not. Brexiteers seem to think they can bend anyone's ear about it, any time. I've never approached anyone in a pub to start a conversation about Brexit and I've never had anyone approach me when I'm out and say 'this Brexit idea is bonkers innit?'

It's the Brexiteer bores who sap the life out of an evening out. They're typically the type who you can't engage in any meaningful intelligent conversation about it either - I've only ever spoken to one who you can have a proper discussion with, it's always their way or nothing. Argumentative loadmouths who have no ability to work with people who see things differently to find common ground.

They've ruined the country now they want to ruin my evening out!
Posted by: KingstonMariner, December 22, 2018, 1:02pm; Reply: 75
Quoted from grimsby pete
I would just like to add its the remainers that keep harping on about another referendum,

I also think the EU will blink first when we get nearer the day if they think we are leaving with no deal.

Relax all will be well. 8)


No remainer has ever brought the subject up when I'm out.
Posted by: barralad, December 22, 2018, 1:32pm; Reply: 76
Quoted from grimsby pete
I would just like to add its the remainers that keep harping on about another referendum,

I also think the EU will blink first when we get nearer the day if they think we are leaving with no deal.

Relax all will be well. 8)


I campaigned for and voted to Remain. I do not want another referendum. I just want something more concrete than the hope that Brussels will "blink first" and something less nebulous than "Relax all will be well" You know something like a Brexiteer putting an actual time limit on this broadly quoted "Well it will be horrible for a while but then it will be ace". Given that austerity has lasted eight years with no end in sight (despite what the criminally useless Maybot comes out with) I do not expect to see this promised land any time soon.
Posted by: barralad, December 22, 2018, 1:47pm; Reply: 77
Quoted from Marinerz93


I would say that depends on the company you keep and the people you mix with. Maybe it's you attracting the Brexiters with you ruining their evening remoaning loudly and sapping the life out of the party, the comment about shutting the intercourse up goes both ways. A democratic vote was taken to leave the EU,  and it seems the anti democratic federalists are the ones that have no grip on the reality of a Federal Europe with more and more power as they control everything in our lives without our consent and the inability to vote the bureaucrats out or the ability to say no.

Unanimity - Unanimity Rule is a voting rule in which decisions are made based on unanimous approval of those casting votes. That is, every voter must cast the same vote. Unanimity is used in elections where there is no room for doubt or disagreement. The veto that remainers cling to is going as Juncter stated in his state of the Union speech, just like the EU army and EU embassys that he said would happen and the happless remainers said would never happen. These plans all came pre 2012 and they are now in place. The EU's final pieces of the jigsaw are coming together and they'll soon have total control in the coming years.



Am used to your views on this mate but can you tell me which part of our British bureaucracy we can vote out now? The last time I looked all civil servants were unelected...even at the top. We can vote out MEPs it just so happens that the great British electorate voted in significant numbers to be represented by a party that boasted that it wouldn't represent them. They could have joined forces with other anti federalist parties but didn't. The British people got a sh1te deal from UKIP.
Here's a challenge. Name me five laws enacted by the E.U. that either we didn't like or couldn't veto..
Posted by: grimsby pete, December 22, 2018, 2:22pm; Reply: 78
Another thing that I think will not happen if we leave with no deal,

The EU will not have a hard border in Ireland and we wont,

So whats all the fuss been about.
Posted by: Maringer, December 22, 2018, 5:05pm; Reply: 79
Not one to usually post videos, but I find this one amusing:

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/open-britain-video-single-market-nigel-farage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce
Posted by: Marinerz93, December 22, 2018, 5:05pm; Reply: 80
Quoted from Rodley Mariner


If someone is saying horrible stuff to you and you’ve been playing too much Minecraft on the iPad to articulate a witty retort, wipe a bogie hastily on their arm then sharply pull their Spider-Man underpants up as high as you possibly can until they are crying for mercy. Eventually you can let go and look down with disdain at them, snivelling and writhing around on the ground, this playtime’s victim. No words required.
Hope that helps,
Holly
Posted by: Marinerz93, December 22, 2018, 5:29pm; Reply: 81
Quoted from KingstonMariner


Not at all. I never mention the subject when out socially, but it's always some sad sap who keeps bringing it up whether you know them or not. Brexiteers seem to think they can bend anyone's ear about it, any time. I've never approached anyone in a pub to start a conversation about Brexit and I've never had anyone approach me when I'm out and say 'this Brexit idea is bonkers innit?

It's the Brexiteer bores who sap the life out of an evening out. They're typically the type who you can't engage in any meaningful intelligent conversation about it either - I've only ever spoken to one who you can have a proper discussion with, it's always their way or nothing. Argumentative loadmouths who have no ability to work with people who see things differently to find common ground.

They've ruined the country now they want to ruin my evening out!


In all your anti brexit posts I don't see anywhere were you are willing to work with people who see things differently to you.

All the times I go out, I've never heard people moaning either way, I've never had anyone bending my ear either way, the only unwanted topic that crops up time and time again is people talking about work and that's from social clubs to out on the Town. Common ground is difficult to find when something that started out as a common market turned into a political union that no vote by the people was sought to transfer power from Parliament to un-elected bureaucrats in a foreign country with their own agendas.

Posted by: Marinerz93, December 22, 2018, 6:09pm; Reply: 82
Quoted from GrimRob
Most of the EU countries are in NATO anyway so if they were attacked we would be obliged to come to their rescue. So in effect, there already is a combined army as we are all on the same "side" and watch one another's backs. Armies are becoming increasingly irrelevant in today's world in which you can carry out more effective attacks from afar and far less traceability.


This is true and the US foots most of the bill with some countries putting in less than the 2 % of GDP they agreed to put in, hence the comments from the past three U.S. presidents have all made clear they believe the relationship has been imbalanced for too long. The Wales summit in 2014 should have settled the issue. That’s when all members agreed to spend 2 percent of their gross domestic product on defense by 2024. There is something like 29 countries in NATO and the US pay about 70% of the total costs. If the EU army is to match and replace NATO what do you think the cost will be and who is going to pay for that as it is going to cost billions. Also tell me why do we need an EU army if we have something in place that is already better and stronger than an EU army could ever be?

The major difference being  NATO - founded during the Cold War as a Western military/security alliance against the USSR and it's allies. Most of the members are still from the West and are predominantly from Europe or North America.

The calls from the likes of Verhoftstadt and Junker to control an EU army to front up to Russia is a dangerous one. Putin has already stated he feels Russia is surrounded do you think the rhetoric from Verhofstadt will calm things down, especially as he has form for implementing the things he shouts about, even if he is a nut job.

From being involved in NATO operations in the past, one thing that happens is a daily struggle for who is in charge. The UK will put a high ranking official in, France will put a high ranking official in who out ranks him by a grade then the Germans do the same to the French and so the I'm in charge game begins, a similar thing happens when the UK armed forces act as a tri-service, each service trying to out rank the other usually with the army playing all their top trumps. Then you have mission creep as the plan is changed so that the person in charge can claim he has done something for his review/CV/legacy and then others who replace them try to out do the last one and so the operation gets dragged out and the costs spiral and spiral.

From experience the cost of military operations can go from a £1 million pound for a 2 week operation of up to 60 personnel to hundreds of millions over months / years for aircraft and other transport fuel costs, hiring equipment/boats/trains/coaches/cranes for transporting troops and equipment. Then you have food costs, generator hire/fuel and maintenance costs, and servicemen get paid an allowance on top of their wage after 7 days away a certain rate depending on how many days away they have previously done, it goes up in several increments, then phone cards, washing facilities. Then you have replacement costs for when expensive equipment breaks down. I don't see any of those who barely fund the agreed 2 % paying anymore than they are doing so far.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, December 23, 2018, 10:43pm; Reply: 83
Quoted from Marinerz93


In all your anti brexit posts I don't see anywhere were you are willing to work with people who see things differently to you.

All the times I go out, I've never heard people moaning either way, I've never had anyone bending my ear either way, the only unwanted topic that crops up time and time again is people talking about work and that's from social clubs to out on the Town. Common ground is difficult to find when something that started out as a common market turned into a political union that no vote by the people was sought to transfer power from Parliament to un-elected bureaucrats in a foreign country with their own agendas.



In 'real life', away from this board, I'm a much more reasonable person.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, December 23, 2018, 10:46pm; Reply: 84
Quoted from Maringer


You're not saying people believed those lying cnuts are you?  ;D
Posted by: grimsby pete, December 24, 2018, 7:46am; Reply: 85
When we last voted 45 years ago I like most others voted to join or stay in the common market,

It was a good choice then BUT now the E U is a different sort of animal ,

Just look at all the thousands of people that are employed in Brussels  to make our rules and laws,

We are better off out BUT  that does not mean we can not trade with them.

If we have to pay a little bit  to trade it will be worth it.

When other countries that are paying too much to stay in some of them will look at how well we are doing and the people will want out like us,

The French will be the next no matter what their president says they do not mess about when they think they are being unfairly treated.
Posted by: Marinerz93, December 24, 2018, 3:07pm; Reply: 86
Quoted from KingstonMariner


In 'real life', away from this board, I'm a much more reasonable person.


In fairness everyone I have met in 'real life' off the fishy has been spot on, so I wouldn't doubt what you say for one minute. Differing views and opinions is what makes this a great board. We all get frustrated with different topics especially when we all want or wholeheartedly believe whats is best.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, December 26, 2018, 4:21pm; Reply: 87
Quoted from barralad


I campaigned for and voted to Remain. I do not want another referendum. I just want something more concrete than the hope that Brussels will "blink first" and something less nebulous than "Relax all will be well" You know something like a Brexiteer putting an actual time limit on this broadly quoted "Well it will be horrible for a while but then it will be ace". Given that austerity has lasted eight years with no end in sight (despite what the criminally useless Maybot comes out with) I do not expect to see this promised land any time soon.


I wouldn't normally post on a political thread as there is never likely to be a meeting of minds, especially on a subject as divisive as Brexit

I have to say I accepted the decision to leave even if that isn't what I thought would be best... if the UK were unhappy with the way the EU was being run, then imho the negotiation process that we're currently witnessing should have taken place before the electorate decided to leave and not afterwards

One thing is for sure.... in or out, the government that led us to this impasse are still going to be "in charge" going forward and that above all else saddens me, because from Cameron to May, the Tories have made an absolute pig's ear of everything
Posted by: grimsby pete, December 26, 2018, 4:35pm; Reply: 88
Quoted from FishOutOfWater


I wouldn't normally post on a political thread as there is never likely to be a meeting of minds, especially on a subject as divisive as Brexit

I have to say I accepted the decision to leave even if that isn't what I thought would be best... if the UK were unhappy with the way the EU was being run, then imho the negotiation process that we're currently witnessing should have taken place before the electorate decided to leave and not afterwards

One thing is for sure.... in or out, the government that led us to this impasse are still going to be in charge and that above all else saddens me, because from Cameron to May, they've made an absolute pig's ear of everything



Although I voted to leave I agree with most of what you said Tim I thought we would be able to negociate a lot better than we have done.

If I did not know better I think the government are deliberatly getting us into a tight corner before declaring we better extend the period before we officially leave then have another referendum hoping we change the vote to remain.

To be honest I like many are that fed up with what they are doing I am not bothered now if we stay or go.

Posted by: FishOutOfWater, December 26, 2018, 7:11pm; Reply: 89
Quoted from grimsby pete


Although I voted to leave I agree with most of what you said Tim I thought we would be able to negociate a lot better than we have done.

If I did not know better I think the government are deliberatly getting us into a tight corner before declaring we better extend the period before we officially leave then have another referendum hoping we change the vote to remain.

To be honest I like many are that fed up with what they are doing I am not bothered now if we stay or go.



Think that way myself Pete... it's the political equivalent of footballers running the clock down, feigning injury and keeping the ball close to the corner flag, in the knowledge that if they can waste time at every opportunity and see things out in additioonal time, there's a replay looming ::)

Anyway as it stands, in or out, there's nothing the likes of me or you can do about this.... May made it pretty clear in PMQs that she thinks this whole is process is some kind of laughable pantomime

Thank goodness we have football to distract us....All Town aren't we!

Btw a belated Merry Christmas to you and yours and all the best for 2019! :)
Posted by: grimsby pete, December 26, 2018, 8:04pm; Reply: 90
Quoted from FishOutOfWater


Think that way myself Pete... it's the political equivalent of footballers running the clock down, feigning injury and keeping the ball close to the corner flag, in the knowledge that if they can waste time at every opportunity and see things out in additioonal time, there's a replay looming ::)

Anyway as it stands, in or out, there's nothing the likes of me or you can do about this.... May made it pretty clear in PMQs that she thinks this whole is process is some kind of laughable pantomime

Thank goodness we have football to distract us....All Town aren't we!

Btw a belated Merry Christmas to you and yours and all the best for 2019! :)


Have a very happy new year Tim, Town are begining to click now,

Who knows how good we can be with 2 or 3 good signings

Posted by: KingstonMariner, December 27, 2018, 2:29am; Reply: 91
Quoted from Marinerz93


In fairness everyone I have met in 'real life' off the fishy has been spot on, so I wouldn't doubt what you say for one minute. Differing views and opinions is what makes this a great board. We all get frustrated with different topics especially when we all want or wholeheartedly believe whats is best.


Aye. We're all passionate about stuff. The one thing that unites us is Town. Actually, two things unite us. We all love our country too.

I get carried away and forget those things now and again.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, December 27, 2018, 2:38am; Reply: 92
I was trying to find the post which said the EU Army was a bad idea because of inter-country rivalry (and the poster cited NATO exercises where French and then Germans brought along increasingly senior officers so they could take command). That's exactly why a united army is necessary. A single unified command structure (under one federal state) will make it work.

Just like the nascent 'United' States did when they rebelled against Britain. They had to create the Continental Congress and the Continental Army (and ultimately a common currency). Before that they were 13 rival states that Britain would have picked off at will. I don't think they ever put it to the electorate. The state legislatures just did it.
Posted by: Marinerz93, December 27, 2018, 2:07pm; Reply: 93
Quoted from KingstonMariner
I was trying to find the post which said the EU Army was a bad idea because of inter-country rivalry (and the poster cited NATO exercises where French and then Germans brought along increasingly senior officers so they could take command). That's exactly why a united army is necessary. A single unified command structure (under one federal state) will make it work.

Just like the nascent 'United' States did when they rebelled against Britain. They had to create the Continental Congress and the Continental Army (and ultimately a common currency). Before that they were 13 rival states that Britain would have picked off at will. I don't think they ever put it to the electorate. The state legislatures just did it.




I cited the one up man-ship of rank pulling that goes on in NATO and every country does it, if you think that an EU army will be united in any way shape or form, it won't. It'll be disjointed and you'll have more political involvement than we do now. There won't be a specific EU Army, Navy or Airforce as there is already a structure in place where Germany control so many other countries armies under an EU banner, just like NATO banner. I can't see people going to join a specific EU army, Navy or Airforce, The cost is one thing that will definitely spiral out of control and who is going to pay for it. We will be talking billions here, the EU wastes millions moving offices every month just think of the waste of money as headquarters gets moved around to suit the Field Marshalls/generals at the time of command, that's if they take turns.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, January 3, 2019, 1:17am; Reply: 94
Quoted from Marinerz93




I cited the one up man-ship of rank pulling that goes on in NATO and every country does it, if you think that an EU army will be united in any way shape or form, it won't. It'll be disjointed and you'll have more political involvement than we do now. There won't be a specific EU Army, Navy or Airforce as there is already a structure in place where Germany control so many other countries armies under an EU banner, just like NATO banner. I can't see people going to join a specific EU army, Navy or Airforce, The cost is one thing that will definitely spiral out of control and who is going to pay for it. We will be talking billions here, the EU wastes millions moving offices every month just think of the waste of money as headquarters gets moved around to suit the Field Marshalls/generals at the time of command, that's if they take turns.


The whole point is that with a federal Europe and a EU army there'll be a single command structure. No need to rotate it. There'll be fewer problems than there would be with NATO. Or are you saying that there isn't a problem with NATO because the Americans are in charge? In which case, we've opted to give up membership of a federation where we get a say on what happens to being a vassal state where important decisions are made by the baseball cap wearing denizens of Hicksville, Odahio.

Sure the project will take decades to reach a level that the policy framework is bedded in. But ultimately that's got to happen. Europe needs to be in a position to defend itself - as you pointed out elsewhere, 'why should America(n taxpayers) pay for Europe's defence' (actually for the very good reason that it's in the US' interests not to have Europe controlled by an antagonistic power). It's better able to defend itself with a unified command structure and political unity. Worked well for the US.

I think you also mentioned the prospect of an EU army being seen as a threat by the Russians. Like they don't see NATO as a threat? They've been bleating for years about NATO anti-missile shields, NATO expansion into Eastern Europe, NATO encircling Russia in central Asia, the Caucasus etc. There would be more legitimacy in EU troops patrolling the borders of the Baltic states than American ones.
Posted by: Skrill, January 3, 2019, 8:35pm; Reply: 95
With an EU Federation, Europe would end up with a scenario like Yugoslavia. One main reason for the breakup of Yugoslavia was because of the head of the collective presidency was rotated between representatives of the different republics. Authority being passed around. People don't like being told what to do by other nations.

What would an EU Army stand for? Globalism, censorship, taxation without representation, regulation. All while headed by corruptible failed former European PMs/Presidents and suspiciously elected and unaccountable EU Commission. Also making in-efficient, cost in-effective militarises bloated by more bureaucracy, when we already have a vast array of military branches and in addition we'd lose our proud regimental history. (As what would happen if absorbed into an EU Army) Yeah fantastic. (clap2)
Posted by: Marinerz93, January 5, 2019, 11:41pm; Reply: 96
Quoted from KingstonMariner


The whole point is that with a federal Europe and a EU army there'll be a single command structure. No need to rotate it. There'll be fewer problems than there would be with NATO. Or are you saying that there isn't a problem with NATO because the Americans are in charge? In which case, we've opted to give up membership of a federation where we get a say on what happens to being a vassal state where important decisions are made by the baseball cap wearing denizens of Hicksville, Odahio.

Sure the project will take decades to reach a level that the policy framework is bedded in. But ultimately that's got to happen. Europe needs to be in a position to defend itself - as you pointed out elsewhere, 'why should America(n taxpayers) pay for Europe's defence' (actually for the very good reason that it's in the US' interests not to have Europe controlled by an antagonistic power). It's better able to defend itself with a unified command structure and political unity. Worked well for the US.

I think you also mentioned the prospect of an EU army being seen as a threat by the Russians. Like they don't see NATO as a threat? They've been bleating for years about NATO anti-missile shields, NATO expansion into Eastern Europe, NATO encircling Russia in central Asia, the Caucasus etc. There would be more legitimacy in EU troops patrolling the borders of the Baltic states than American ones.


The EU falls down on command of operations, only the British, French (much lower than UK), have any real command of operations that are in the EU.

The US hicks have an enormous amount of experience in operations and have been funding NATO more or less since it was formed and are a superpower and you think an over zealous Belgian MEP with holes in his pockets and plans of dominance, can match the infrastructure needed to replace NATO, the US can call on spy satellites to unmanned drones. This has cost billions to put in place and the rest of the EU are so far behind it's like looking at the Flintstones taking on Predator.

Putin has bemoaned that he feels the US/NATO have surrounded Russia the difference is the language used, Verhofstadt has made speeches in Brussels that the EU Army must front up to Russia, a show of force, is that not a more aggressive stance than what NATO has done.

An EU federal army won't happen, far too expensive, you may get a officer command training station, what will happen and is happening is each country will submit command of it's forces to France or Germany like it currently does now so deployable, interoperable force under a single command carrying out EU foreign policy. You still haven't addressed the cost, some of the EU countries are putting less than the agreed 2% of GDP into defence of their own countries and you think that an EU army can replace NATO.
Posted by: codcheeky, January 15, 2019, 7:44pm; Reply: 97
Surely May will resign?
Posted by: LH, January 15, 2019, 7:57pm; Reply: 98
They’re all in this together. The Commons sure won’t let her and them continue? We go to a general election and this shitshow gets another series.
Posted by: forza ivano, January 15, 2019, 8:51pm; Reply: 99
You won't be getting a general election. Turkeys won't vote for Xmas!
A spectacular loss, in fact I 'd dare to say that is quite an incredible achievement to spend so much time and effort on an agreement that was defeated by so many. And don't forget she has c 80-90 votes tied up by all the tories on the government payroll ( in fact that may be as much as 125) so in reality she got c100 votes out of a possible 560. That takes some doing o alienate so many different people. When she took over and spoke so eloquently about uniting people, I didn't really think she would take t this far  ;D ;D ;D
Matt hancocks shell shocked face was a picture!
Let's hope they have some indicative votes and the sensible heads on both sides get together and force through a Norway type deal which is about the only thing which can get through

Incidentally nobody seems to have raised the following possibility. We exit on either Norway or no deal terms. We then have a general election a couple of years later, by which time we've got a good idea as to how the new arrangement is working.There is absolutely nothing to stop either the tories or labour saying in their manifesto, right the present arrangement hasn't worked , if we get elected we will rejoin the e.u. / exit the present arrangements for wto rules/ apply to join efta or the eea


Ps one other thought. Why couldn't we have a second referendum solely on the 3 brexit options? The May deal / Norway/ no deal?  (I've remaining in the e.u. Isn't an option)That would be respecting the wishes of the voters for brexit, whilst giving us a choice on the final details now that we are much better informed as to he consequences and possibilities
Posted by: Manchester Mariner, January 15, 2019, 8:51pm; Reply: 100
It's just a perpetual cycle of repetition. The same arguments we've had for the last 2 years will continue until we all die.
Posted by: GrimRob, January 15, 2019, 8:54pm; Reply: 101
Quoted from codcheeky
Surely May will resign?


Everyone is happy for her to stay and be the fall guy. If anything her position is strengthened as the task before whoever is in charge is so unwinnable it's unimaginable anyone can turn it around from here. If I was Corbyn I'd not want to be anywhere near the negotiating table. Let the Tories make a mess of it and be unelectable for at least a decade.
Posted by: Maringer, January 15, 2019, 11:29pm; Reply: 102
One thing to point out is that EFTA members aren't likely to let us join their little club if that was the direction we tried to take. The freedom of movement thing means that no way will May ever try to join EFTA in any case.

The fact that the government is likely to survive the no confidence vote after today's catastrophic defeat shows just what sort of a corner the Tories have painted themselves into.

Not much different for Labour, for that matter. In the event of a general election, if they backed a second referendum, they would almost certainly win the popular vote by a decent amount but might well lose the election itself because so many Labour seats voted leave!
Posted by: ginnywings, January 15, 2019, 11:29pm; Reply: 103
As i said before, May was thrown the hand grenade by Cameron, and none of the other grasping ar$eholes who want to be PM in the Tory party are going to throw their hat into the ring until all this dies down. Boris desperately wants to be P.M., but he's too smarmy an operator to make his move now, while the Tories are so weak and at risk of losing an election.

Have to say that when the chips have been down and the country desperately needs guidance and leadership, most politicians have been found wanting. They love it when it's smooth sailing and they can go about their business of self interest and self promotion, but this crisis has just shown that ultimately, the worst kind of unqualified people end up running the country. I don't know what's worse, what we have here, or Trump in America. Not much in it for me.

Still, it's all the fault of the immigrants.
Posted by: forza ivano, January 15, 2019, 11:33pm; Reply: 104
The thing I love about this is how both leaders have lost control and how parliament is flexing its muscles aided and abetted by the irascible speaker. Long may it continue where like minded politicians band together and pursue an independent course of action. Corbyn and may are becoming increasingly irrelevant in this.its members of the cabinet, the speaker the committee chairs and the 'sensible heads' on the backbenchers who hopefully will take centre stage
Posted by: louth_in_the_south, January 16, 2019, 7:47am; Reply: 105
No second referendum. No fooking People’s vote ffs . We already had it . If Europe and our shi.tearse politicians can’t find a deal then let’s just hard brexit. I don’t trust all these think tanks who predict what will happen on pivotal moments. How many have they actually got right ?!! The people have voted , let’s just get on with it now .

I voted remain in the referendum btw .
Posted by: ska face, January 16, 2019, 8:27am; Reply: 106
Quoted from louth_in_the_south
No second referendum. No fooking People’s vote ffs . We already had it . If Europe and our shi.tearse politicians can’t find a deal then let’s just hard brexit. I don’t trust all these think tanks who predict what will happen on pivotal moments. How many have they actually got right ?!! The people have voted , let’s just get on with it now .

I voted remain in the referendum btw .


There speaks the voice of someone who won’t lose his job in a hard Brexit, unlike tens of thousands of others. Nice position to be in, not having to face any consequences. If only everyone was a lucky as you.
Posted by: louth_in_the_south, January 16, 2019, 8:50am; Reply: 107
Quoted from ska face


There speaks the voice of someone who won’t lose his job in a hard Brexit, unlike tens of thousands of others. Nice position to be in, not having to face any consequences. If only everyone was a lucky as you.


I’m a truck driver not a banker mate . Not everyone who lives down here works in the city . My jobs far from safe , I just don’t fall for all the political scaremongering anyone
Posted by: ska face, January 16, 2019, 8:55am; Reply: 108
Then why would you make out you’re happy to see other people fuckked and potentially fuckk yourself? Makes no sense to me at all.
Posted by: louth_in_the_south, January 16, 2019, 9:03am; Reply: 109
What solid evidence have you got that would happen?
Posted by: louth_in_the_south, January 16, 2019, 9:19am; Reply: 110
All we got from the politicians from both parties and the media before the referendum was that there would be mass unemployment and recession. Didn’t happen. The opposite actually. So why believe them now and throw the democratic vote in the bin ?
Posted by: Maringer, January 16, 2019, 9:24am; Reply: 111
Hard Brexit would almost certainly lead to a recession and the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs (at least). You don't chaotically leave the world's largest and most successful trading bloc (to which your economy has been closely integrated for decades) without as serious impact. If we were to leave completely and the government had spent the past couple of years planning for it and mitigating for the problems we would encounter, you could water down some of the impact, but we haven't. HMRC is already chronically underfunded and understaffed and, with almost no planning, there is no way they can cope with a hard exit. We import most of our food, let's not forget, so it wouldn't take more than a few delays at the major ports for supplies to start running low.

Ignoring the idiotic 'Project Fear' forecasts from Osborne when he was Chancellor (which made as little sense as his other forecasts), you'll not find a reputable economist who thinks that anything other than serious impacts are likely to occur if we have a hard Brexit.

I'm amazed how many people seem to be thinking 'get on with it', even if they originally voted remain. If we're going to leave, let's make sure it's in an orderly manner so it causes as little damage as possible. If this means kicking the can down the road for another 6 months or a year, so be it.
Posted by: ginnywings, January 16, 2019, 9:51am; Reply: 112
The thing is, we are the 5th richest nation on earth and the richest in Europe. There never was a problem with trade and economic prosperity to start with. There was only ever a problem with wealth distribution, and the w@ankers who really run the country weren't happy with taking almost everything, they wanted it all, so they introduce austerity measures and those on the bones of their @rse believed the lying fookers when they told them it was all the fault of the immigrants and the Brussels bureaucrats. That was after blaming the Labour party became a bit thin as an excuse. It's not our fault we are stinking rich and you are dirt poor, it's all Johnny Foreigner's fault.

What an absolute fooking shambles and the people fell for it. Once we are out and they can ride rough shod over workers rights and abolish the work time directive, with no one to stop them, then i expect the poor sods will get even poorer, while the likes of the smarmy Gove, Johnson and Rees Mogg et al will be laughing all the way to the bank.

If we are to leave, then to just say fook it, let's get on with it, will be an even bigger mistake than the decision to leave was in the first place.
Posted by: grimsby pete, January 16, 2019, 10:31am; Reply: 113
I think we will come to an agreement that not only pleases all parties and all four nations of the UK,

BUT

This will not happen until after we move into our new stadium at PP.
Posted by: forza ivano, January 16, 2019, 10:55am; Reply: 114
my hope is that the 'sensible-heads' as i call them (Stella Creasey,Chuka Ummuna, Damian Green, Dominic Grieve, Nick,Boles, Nicky Morgan, Stephen Kinnock, Hilary Benn etc) bypass the leaderships and get together to sort out a deal that can be passed by Parliament
The first thing to happen is they've got to start ignoring the DUP (10 MPs) and the Brexiteers (c100 MPs) as this minority has been the tail wagging the parliamentary dog and their ideas command nil support elsewhere in Parliament. We will get a better idea of what is possible if the series of indicative votes (which need to be free votes) take place.
My best guess is that a Norway type deal has the best chance of getting accepted by the 330 needed. You are a long way to that total if the vast majority of labour went with that, plus the 50 MPs from the other opposition parties.
yes there would be howls of dismay, but we have got to get something through, and if this is the only thing that flies, then so be it.
Don't forget that any future government could change the arrangement if it wasn't working or if there was a popular 'uprising' against it.
i hope that may and Corbyn both become increasingly sidelined as neither of them seem to be living in the real world at present
Posted by: ska face, January 16, 2019, 11:15am; Reply: 115
It’s worrying that people see neoliberal millionaires like Ummuna and warmongers like Benn as “sensible”. Their brand of politics is dead - dead in the U.K and dead across Europe purely because their business as usual approach has put people in the position we’re in currently - massive disparities in wealth, migrant crises caused by western “intervention” in Africa and the Middle East and facing climate extinction. These people do not want a socialist govt as the gravy train stops when people start to address the root cause of many problems in society and they might have to do some actual work. They’ve been sticking the knife into their own party leadership daily for 3 years, 2 failed coups, constant undermining, briefing against the party and ultimately ignoring the membership which decides Labour policy. Not Corbyn, not Momentum, not shady billionaire donors - the members.

People are sick of the status quo and these people personify it.
Posted by: Maringer, January 16, 2019, 11:29am; Reply: 116
I personally think Corbyn is just treading water, hoping the Tories implode completely before he has to take an active stance on anything concrete. The problem is that Labour Party members and many of their voters want different things. The Party members overwhelmingly want a second referendum whereas many of their traditional voters who aren't members voted leave (even if it was directly against their best interests) and nobody really knows how they would go if a second referendum was called.

Here's a pretty long run-down of some of the issues which the Labour leadership are obviously worried about:

https://statsforlefties.blogspot.com/2018/11/do-i-stay-or-do-i-go-labours-brexit.html

Basically, to break it down, lots of constituencies which they must win to have a chance of forming a government voted Leave quite strongly. The electoral calculus is very difficult to work out - how many Tory remainers would never vote for a Labour government? Probably quite a few, even if it led to a catastrophic hard Brexit. How many Labour leavers would vote Tory (or more likely A.N. Other) if Labour backed a second referendum? Who really knows?

I think that the Labour leadership are hoping that May & Co continue to make such a balls-up of things that a General Election is forced to give them a chance of power. Then, after failing to negotiate a substantive change to May's deal (it really is the only possible 'deal' due to the Good Friday agreement, an international treaty which means that Northern Ireland must really remain in the single market), they would regretfully go for a second referendum which would then almost certainly go remain. I say almost certainly because lots of leavers have died since 2016 and lots of potential remain voters have come of voting age.

I can't say I'm a great fan of Corbyn's stance because it's just based on a gamble that things will turn out as hoped rather than taking the bull by the horns and trying to direct the process. We know he's a Eurosceptic himself (even though the claims that the EU rules on state aid would make much of the Labour manifesto untenable just aren't true), but better to be brave than quiet - not that he's likely to get a fair hearing in the media either way.

Oddly enough, whatever the result at the end of this whole debacle, it may be that both the Conservative and Labour parties are destroyed by the process. If so, it would be nice if we could somehow introduce a grown-up electoral system with proportional representation to ensure that votes counted for a lot more.
Posted by: forza ivano, January 16, 2019, 11:56am; Reply: 117
Quoted from ska face
It’s worrying that people see neoliberal millionaires like Ummuna and warmongers like Benn as “sensible”. Their brand of politics is dead - dead in the U.K and dead across Europe purely because their business as usual approach has put people in the position we’re in currently - massive disparities in wealth, migrant crises caused by western “intervention” in Africa and the Middle East and facing climate extinction. These people do not want a socialist govt as the gravy train stops when people start to address the root cause of many problems in society and they might have to do some actual work. They’ve been sticking the knife into their own party leadership daily for 3 years, 2 failed coups, constant undermining, briefing against the party and ultimately ignoring the membership which decides Labour policy. Not Corbyn, not Momentum, not shady billionaire donors - the members.

People are sick of the status quo and these people personify it.


you may well be right Grant, but that ain't the issue here. We've got to get something through and i think they probably have the best chance of taking control of the situation.

Don't agree with everything you say Maringer, but i agree that  the central conundrum for Labour is stark and electorally is possibly more worrying than the Tories situation. There's no way an Election is happening any time soon - the vote tonight will show you that.as i said Turkeys don't vote for Xmas.
incidentally a Norway deal does satisfy the border issue, its just that people will be howling over freedom of movement etc, but even within existing EU rules there are ways of restricting uncontrolled immigration, a point that no UK government took up and a fact that was conveniently forgotten
Posted by: louth_in_the_south, January 16, 2019, 12:56pm; Reply: 118
Maringer — why do you almost certainly believe hundreds of 1000s of jobs would go ? What industries in the Uk would be hardest hit ? I want some answers because I don’t get any from our politicians on the left , right or middle !!
Posted by: forza ivano, January 16, 2019, 1:30pm; Reply: 119
without spiking maringer's guns id say the job losses would be widespread through all sectors. the transfer of financial services jobs to Europe and the problems the car industry would face have been widely covered. Tariffs on imported goods would lead to higher prices and less household spending so the retail sector would be quickly affected. Tariffs on exports would lead to our goods becoming too expensive for foreign customers to buy (although the expected collapse in the exchange rate may mitigate that). There would be an almost immediate cessation of new investment - who's going to spend money on new technology/facilities or simple expansion when the country is grinding to a halt? Companies are going to look to cut costs immediately so temps and zero hours staff would feel it immediately. Agriculture would be badly hit, bizarre to think that so many farmers are enthusiastic brexiteers.
there are so many implications - the whole thing is like peeling an onion, you just discover layer after layer of reprecussions. the exchange rate collapses so the EU workers on who we rely find its not worth staying here; not when they can move to Europe and get similar jobs, be closer to home and earn much more (its already happening in the building industry). What happens then to our care sector, our builders and to the hospitality and warehousing industries?

not a prospect i'd like to experience!

the only minor silver lining for no deal would be that it'd certainly sort out the brexit question once and for all. If after a couple of years of doom and chaos it looks like we're surviving and starting to move forward, then Johnson et al have been proved right and everythings hunky dory. if its a complete disaster then the Brexiteers and Little Englanders might finally shut up and a new government would take us back into Europe to try and make up the lost years
Posted by: Town Monkey, January 16, 2019, 1:40pm; Reply: 120
Financial Services for one is likely to take a massive hit.  We've already seen £800 billion of assets moving to the EU27 along with a good number of very lucrative (and therefore tax generative) roles.  Without the free movement of goods, we would also see a significant hit to our manufacturing sector as there would be a significant disruption to many supply chains.  There would be a number of companies that couldn't cope with the disruption.  Other multinationals could and would have to rethink their business model and potentially move production elsewhere.  

With these businesses gone or diminished there would also be a knock on effect to the local social eco systems and communities who support those businesses and their workers.  
Posted by: louth_in_the_south, January 16, 2019, 1:47pm; Reply: 121
A pretty bleak outlook. I heard an interesting report this morning that said Germany exports in the region of £39B worth of automotive parts a year . Of that I’m not sure comes here but I’d say a large % based on the number of car manufacturers here . Based on that would you think they would be likely to lobby for high import/export tariffs if they would then hammer the German economy. Just one example but if we consider the fact is replicated throughout different industries as the Uk is a very important market for Europe  , would other European countries want to harm their own economies by imposing punitive tariffs. I’m not so sure .
Posted by: forza ivano, January 16, 2019, 2:10pm; Reply: 122
Quoted from louth_in_the_south
A pretty bleak outlook. I heard an interesting report this morning that said Germany exports in the region of £39B worth of automotive parts a year . Of that I’m not sure comes here but I’d say a large % based on the number of car manufacturers here . Based on that would you think they would be likely to lobby for high import/export tariffs if they would then hammer the German economy. Just one example but if we consider the fact is replicated throughout different industries as the Uk is a very important market for Europe  , would other European countries want to harm their own economies by imposing punitive tariffs. I’m not so sure .


It's true that the EU exports more to us than it imports from the UK, but there are 3 important facts to consider. about 45% of our exports go to the EU and over half of our imports come the other way whereas our 66 million people only represents 12% of the total EU population.this basically means that we need them more than they need us. they are jeopardising a market which represents 12% of the present internal market, but we are jeopardising half of all our exports and imports
Posted by: Town Monkey, January 16, 2019, 2:10pm; Reply: 123
I don't think it's the tariffs themselves that are the issue (as long as they're not set too high).  The short term issues around customs checks etc are inevitably going to lead to delays. Depending on how long this disruption lasts, will determine how catastrophic the outcome will be.  I for one don't have any confidence in any of our political parties to resolve these issues in a timely fashion.  

Financial services is a separate issue.  The EU27 are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of London taking a hit and them being the destination for funds and jobs.  Germany, Luxembourg, Ireland and France have already been significant beneficiaries but even Spain, Portugal and Belgium have seen business transferring to them.
Posted by: Maringer, January 16, 2019, 2:40pm; Reply: 124
Regarding job losses, they would come throughout all sectors, assuming a recession hits. Since 2008, we've had the weakest 'recovery' from a recession since the Napoleonic wars. It's a recovery without any real recovery. Unemployment 'only' rose by around 600,000 in the last recession but there are all sorts of problems with the jobs market these days - zero hours contracts and the like. I'd imagine another recession would lead to at least as many jobs lost but we're starting from a weaker base. Note that a hard Brexit is pretty much certain to lead to a further devaluation of the Pound so imports will become more expensive.

If we actually manufactured much stuff this wouldn't be a bad thingfor exports but we stopped all that manufacturing nonsense in the 1980s.  >:(

What some don't realise is that the main reason that the FTSE 100 is at such a high level (even with recent large falls) is that most of these companies have extensive overseas operations. With the devaluation of the pound after the referendum, their overseas profits are suddenly worth more in £. It's not an indication of a strong economy in the UK itself!
Posted by: Hagrid, January 16, 2019, 7:55pm; Reply: 125
Said at the time it would intercourse my generation up, and what a flipping mess its made. Country is the laughing stock of europe
Posted by: arryarryarry, January 16, 2019, 9:08pm; Reply: 126
Quoted from Maringer
No existing EU member is going to be forced to join the Euro. In fact, with the way it is currently structured, you'd be crazy to join. You can't have a currency union without fiscal transfers between states (as they have in the US) because, if you do, the poorer areas lose out because their currency is overvalued and the wealthy areas benefit from an undervalued currency. The ECB (which is not the EU) has screwed over the likes of Greece and Spain, but will soon discover they can't do the same to Italy who are one of the largest economies in the world (not to mention the main EU manufacturing competitor to Germany). If they want to save the Euro, they will have to change policy. Note, however, that the EU and the Euro are not the same thing - we could quite happily have remained in the EU without ever joining the Euro.

As for your other points, we have the veto (until we leave), so can veto anything you say is going to happen:

Cancel the rebate? Nope, we'll veto that.
Cancel the ability to veto? Nope, we'll veto that.
Set up an EU army? Veto.
In some states, an EU embassy would be a decent money saving ploy but I can't see it being favoured because of the 'soft power' having an embassy gives the UK in many countries. The availability of a diplomatic presence provides back channels to resolve issues and attempt to influence policy. Not to mention, where else would our spooks operate from if we lost the embassies!

Most of your anti-EU arguments are against an EU which doesn't exist at present and couldn't exist if we remained a member and didn't vote for the changes to enable them.

If you want to leave the EU to regain complete sovereignty, then fair enough, that's a reasonable argument. You just have be honest enough to accept that it will mean we are a lot poorer because of it in the future. East European countries are clamouring to join the world's largest, wealthiest and most successful trading bloc. There's a good reason for that.


Of course they are, because they will know they will be better off because they will likely end up as net receivers of cash from the EU.

Posted by: arryarryarry, January 16, 2019, 9:23pm; Reply: 127
Quoted from Marinerz93


Interesting points, how would staying in the EU effect our debt with the EU plans of 2020

1. All EU countries to adopt the Euro - Valdes Dombrovskis, EU Commissioner for the Euro and Social Dialogue, told France 24 that all member states of the European Union have to join the Eurozone eventually. He said: “That's the ultimate goal. If you look at the Treaty, all member states excluding Denmark are actually obliged to join the Euro. When the UK joined the EU it didn't say never, the same as 5 other countries
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10935617/After-2020-all-EU-members-will-have-to-adopt-the-euro.html


2. No rebate - The EU’s Budget Commissioner has confirmed that Britain would lose its budget rebate in the highly unlikely scenario that the UK stays in the EU. Gunther Oettinger made it clear that the UK would not keep the “mother of all rebates” if it held a second referendum and decided to stay in the EU: Last time, as part of the 2014-2020 budget negotiations but the mechanisms being put in place will mean the rebate will be dropped

3. No veto on anything including the money demanded from each member state - 12 September 2018 in his annual state of the union address, Jean Claude Juncker said there is a proposal to abolish EU member countries' vetoes on certain tax and foreign policy issues.

4. Contributions and control of our Forces to the EU Army that some people claimed would never be established. - PESCO The Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO) is the part of the European Union's (EU) security and defence policy (CSDP) in which 25 of the 28 national armed forces pursue structural integration. Based on Article 42.6 and Protocol 10 of the Treaty on European Union, introduced by the Treaty of Lisbon in 2009, PESCO was first initiated in 2017. The initial integration within the PESCO format is a number of projects planned to launch in 2018, have you heard of mission creep, you'll understand where things go when Military's get involved

5. Loss of embassies around the world as they are replaced by an EU one and EU foreign policy - More than 50 European Union embassies have opened across the world since the Lisbon Treaty came into force, Mats Persson, director of the Open Europe think tank, said the new EU embassies would, for "all practical purposes", take over the job of representing Britons on the world stage. "Common EU embassies means that Britain can be overruled on crucial diplomatic matters, such as on how to respond to human rights abuses in a conflict-ridden country,"

It is all encapsulated in the Lisbon Treaty -  A more Federal EU with less sovereignty and more power transferred to the EU, basically you'll do what the un-elected bureaucrats decide is right for us, and it'll cost far more than we would ever stand to lose under a hard Brexit

We were warned of the EU plans for an EU army it is now happening, we were warned about EU embassys there are over 50 now. We were warned that the EU is becoming more and more federal and we are seeing more and more power transferred to the EU as countries become less sovereign.

Scary excrement indeed, is a Federal EU good for Britain. Especially when you have the likes of Verhofstadt and Juncker at the driving wheel



Veto you say






Would that be the same Lisbon Treaty that Gordon Brown said we would have a referendum on?

The lying Scottish twit.
Posted by: GrimRob, January 17, 2019, 2:47pm; Reply: 128
Leaving the EU is like voluntarily relegating yourself from the Premier League. I don't think I'll ever understand why so many people want to take such a gamble with our future.
Posted by: MarinerMal, January 18, 2019, 3:51pm; Reply: 129
Quoted from Marinerz93


1. All EU countries to adopt the Euro - Valdes Dombrovskis, EU Commissioner for the Euro and Social Dialogue, told France 24 that all member states of the European Union have to join the Eurozone eventually. He said: “That's the ultimate goal. If you look at the Treaty, all member states excluding Denmark are actually obliged to join the Euro. When the UK joined the EU it didn't say never, the same as 5 other countries
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10935617/After-2020-all-EU-members-will-have-to-adopt-the-euro.html


2. No rebate - The EU’s Budget Commissioner has confirmed that Britain would lose its budget rebate in the highly unlikely scenario that the UK stays in the EU. Gunther Oettinger made it clear that the UK would not keep the “mother of all rebates” if it held a second referendum and decided to stay in the EU: Last time, as part of the 2014-2020 budget negotiations but the mechanisms being put in place will mean the rebate will be dropped

3. No veto on anything including the money demanded from each member state - 12 September 2018 in his annual state of the union address, Jean Claude Juncker said there is a proposal to abolish EU member countries' vetoes on certain tax and foreign policy issues.

4. Contributions and control of our Forces to the EU Army that some people claimed would never be established. - PESCO The Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO) is the part of the European Union's (EU) security and defence policy (CSDP) in which 25 of the 28 national armed forces pursue structural integration. Based on Article 42.6 and Protocol 10 of the Treaty on European Union, introduced by the Treaty of Lisbon in 2009, PESCO was first initiated in 2017. The initial integration within the PESCO format is a number of projects planned to launch in 2018, have you heard of mission creep, you'll understand where things go when Military's get involved

5. Loss of embassies around the world as they are replaced by an EU one and EU foreign policy - More than 50 European Union embassies have opened across the world since the Lisbon Treaty came into force, Mats Persson, director of the Open Europe think tank, said the new EU embassies would, for "all practical purposes", take over the job of representing Britons on the world stage. "Common EU embassies means that Britain can be overruled on crucial diplomatic matters, such as on how to respond to human rights abuses in a conflict-ridden country,"

It is all encapsulated in the Lisbon Treaty -  A more Federal EU with less sovereignty and more power transferred to the EU, basically you'll do what the un-elected bureaucrats decide is right for us, and it'll cost far more than we would ever stand to lose under a hard Brexit

We were warned of the EU plans for an EU army it is now happening, we were warned about EU embassys there are over 50 now. We were warned that the EU is becoming more and more federal and we are seeing more and more power transferred to the EU as countries become less sovereign.

Scary excrement indeed, is a Federal EU good for Britain. Especially when you have the likes of Verhofstadt and Juncker at the driving wheel


1. There is no evidence we would be forced to join the Euro. Yes, obvioulsy, the EU wanted each member state to do so but just because we "never said never" does not equate to we have to adopt the Euro.

2. There was talk about if the UK extended the Brexit transition period beyond the end of 2020 we would lose the rebate.That is because the UK is required to contribute to EU coffers during the transition period, but by 2021 Brussels is expected to have revised its budget without the UK. You obviously think we should still get our rebate even if we are not part of the EU? If the UK remains in the EU the rebate would still stand.

3. It's a proposal, that is all it is. The proposal would need to get past the European Parliament and European Council, where it is expected to face much opposition. You would be asking countries to give up their tax control, something they are very unlikely to vote for.

4. All this scaremongering of an EU Army. It is a sensible step given how the US decided no longer to heavily fund NATO or pull out altogether, along with Trump declaring the EU an enemy. With the aggression of Russia over the past few years, I would say they would be fools not to take their own steps to protecting themselves.

5. More scaremongering. Yes the EU have opened some embassies but not at the expense of any national embassies.

Posted by: ginnywings, January 19, 2019, 12:04am; Reply: 130
Posted by: grimsby pete, January 19, 2019, 5:28pm; Reply: 131
That about sums it up Ginny  ;)
Posted by: monkeyboy, January 31, 2019, 6:33am; Reply: 132
Quoted from ska face


Can never get my head around this lazy way of thinking. Like Rob said, you can’t reduce the argument to a simple “we pay x, they get y” statement.

Look at the NHS for example. Almost 6% of NHS staff are EU nationals from outside the UK, about 63,000 people. The UK benefits from their labour and expertise without having spent a single penny on their schooling or training until they walked into the country. How much does it cost to train a doctor or a nurse or school and raise someone that now comes and pays taxes in the UK? Try amount that times 63,000. THAT’S the benefit of being in the EU, as that money saved CAN be spent “looking after our own”, as people like to say.

And that’s just one tiny example from an innumerable amount.


So we are reliant on the 63000 medical people from the EU? tell you what if we get rid of all the Immigrants then im sure there would not be this burden on the NHS. racist No im not. just dont like bullshit figures banded around to justify someones point when its inaccurate
Posted by: ska face, January 31, 2019, 8:27am; Reply: 133
Quoted from monkeyboy

So we are reliant on the 63000 medical people from the EU? tell you what if we get rid of all the Immigrants then im sure there would not be this burden on the NHS. racist No im not. just dont like bullshit figures banded around to justify someones point when its inaccurate


Nobody said you were a racist, but interesting that that’s what you’ve immediately jumped to defend (whilst screaming “get rid of the immigrants).

You may not be a racist, but you are a div. Bullshit figures is it? Here you go, read it for yourself.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7783

Are we reliant on them? Well reduce your workforce overnight by 63,000 and see how you get on. Obviously not reliant on 6% of your staff, but it’s going to be a problem if they all disappear, which is an issue when their job is to keep people alive.

When you go to a hospital do you generally see if full of migrants? No, it’s full of old people, fat people, smokers, urine cans and chronics. Not many poles who spend their days slogging their balderdash off in factories and becoming net contributors to the economy. Get rid of the migrants and say goodbye to their tax contributions which help keep the NHS running for everyone.
Posted by: mariner91, January 31, 2019, 10:26am; Reply: 134
Quoted from monkeyboy

So we are reliant on the 63000 medical people from the EU? tell you what if we get rid of all the Immigrants then im sure there would not be this burden on the NHS. racist No im not. just dont like bullshit figures banded around to justify someones point when its inaccurate


I work for the NHS and can tell you from first hand experience that immigrants put far more into the NHS than they take out. If they all go, we're up shitcreek.
Posted by: grimsby pete, January 31, 2019, 3:02pm; Reply: 135
Quoted from mariner91


I work for the NHS and can tell you from first hand experience that immigrants put far more into the NHS than they take out. If they all go, we're up shitcreek.


As a regular customer of West Suffolk Hospital I can confirm that is true,

We would be lost without them.
Posted by: monkeyboy, February 2, 2019, 11:29am; Reply: 136
Quoted from grimsby pete


As a regular customer of West Suffolk Hospital I can confirm that is true,

We would be lost without them.


But my point being is it is relative to the amount of Immigrants in the country now, if there wasnt such a huge influx then the service would not be as stretched.
Obviously the Goverment play the biggest role by budget cutting.
Posted by: grimsby pete, February 2, 2019, 1:32pm; Reply: 137
My main moan about the discussions was highlighted in question time the other night,

The main sticking block for most is the Irish backstop,

The lady from the Telegraph (  not the Grimsby one )   ;D

Said, " if a no deal was the result the EU would use technology to prevent a hard border so why don't they just do that anyway so a deal could be agreed, "  ?

Common sense might appear before the end of March,

BUT

I will not hold my breath.
Posted by: MarinerMal, February 4, 2019, 1:07pm; Reply: 138
So Nissan has decided not to build their X-Trail here largely because of the brexit debacle.

1. The UK decides decides to leave the EU, the world's leading free-trade arrangements, and instead put up trade, customs and tariff barriers for goods, including cars.
2. Japan sets up a free trade deal with the EU meaning zero tarriffs on cars
3. Japan decides that it is therefore easier to supply cars to Europe direct from Japan rather than from the UK.
4. By leaving the EU the UK won't even have the trade deal with Japan either.
5. Multiply this effect across the economy and all our over the next ten years+

Other firms are moving their HQ's to mainland Europe so they maintain full access to the EU and even Brexiteer James Dyson has moved his company HQ to Singapore (so he doesn't have to pay as much tax but please keep listening to him about how good Brexit will be for the UK).

All this is simply dismissed by the Brexiteers as scaremongering.

Well, I suppose, reality can be touch scary.
Posted by: grimsby pete, February 4, 2019, 1:14pm; Reply: 139
If you are a leaver or a  remainer one thing I think we can all agree on is,

The government and May have made a right useless mess of negotiating  any type of deal.
Posted by: Maringer, February 4, 2019, 1:56pm; Reply: 140
To be fair, the Nissan thing isn't just to do with Brexit. They were planning to build the diesel version of the cars over here but sales of diesels have dropped off a cliff in Europe following the pollution scandals in recent years to scaling back production is understandable.

The utter and total uncertainty about what the hell is going on with Brexit (now less than 2 months away!) will have had a lot to do with the decision, but it's not the only factor to be considered.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, February 4, 2019, 2:04pm; Reply: 141
Quoted from Maringer
To be fair, the Nissan thing isn't just to do with Brexit. They were planning to build the diesel version of the cars over here but sales of diesels have dropped off a cliff in Europe following the pollution scandals in recent years to scaling back production is understandable.

The utter and total uncertainty about what the hell is going on with Brexit (now less than 2 months away!) will have had a lot to do with the decision, but it's not the only factor to be considered.


The same as JLR a few weeks back when they announced they were cutting their workforce... investment in diesel cars is in general being cut right back because of changes to emission level regulations

Posted by: barralad, February 5, 2019, 9:43am; Reply: 142
Quoted from grimsby pete
If you are a leaver or a  remainer one thing I think we can all agree on is,

The government and May have made a right useless mess of negotiating  any type of deal.


The most culpable are those who tried to peddle the lie that leaving would be easy when with even slight investigation it was patently obvious that to not only disentangle us from 40 years of membership but keep everyone happy was difficult in the extreme. Whether this was done out of a desire to show that the Tories were the natural party of government is perhaps a matter of conjecture but it is crystal clear now why May called the 2017 General Election. Only a decent sized majority would have allowed them to ignore dissension and allowed them to have claimed to deliver on the will of the British people.
Posted by: MarinerMal, February 6, 2019, 12:58pm; Reply: 143
Quoted from Maringer
To be fair, the Nissan thing isn't just to do with Brexit. They were planning to build the diesel version of the cars over here but sales of diesels have dropped off a cliff in Europe following the pollution scandals in recent years to scaling back production is understandable.

The utter and total uncertainty about what the hell is going on with Brexit (now less than 2 months away!) will have had a lot to do with the decision, but it's not the only factor to be considered.


I'm sure there were also other business reasons besides Brexit for the decision but Brexit was certainly part of it. The fact still remains though, it's another negative impact of Brexit. We are heavily invested in by foreign companies who will not hesitate to abandon us if they see being in an EU country serves them better than being in a country that wants to leave. What can we offer these foreign countries that the EU cannot?

I am struggling at the moment see what positives have come from the whole Brexit mess at the moment. The only arguments I see from Bexiteers like Jacob Rees-Mogg (the guy who moved his own companies HQ to Dublin to avoid Brexit fallout) is that it is all down to Project Fear. When quite clearly it is closer to Project Reality.

It's about time we started to face up to fact and admit the majority were mislead by those serving self interest and not national interest.

Posted by: FishOutOfWater, February 6, 2019, 1:51pm; Reply: 144
Quoted from MarinerMal


I'm sure there were also other business reasons besides Brexit for the decision but Brexit was certainly part of it. The fact still remains though, it's another negative impact of Brexit. We are heavily invested in by foreign companies who will not hesitate to abandon us if they see being in an EU country serves them better than being in a country that wants to leave. What can we offer these foreign countries that the EU cannot?

I am struggling at the moment see what positives have come from the whole Brexit mess at the moment. The only arguments I see from Bexiteers like Jacob Rees-Mogg (the guy who moved his own companies HQ to Dublin to avoid Brexit fallout) is that it is all down to Project Fear. When quite clearly it is closer to Project Reality.

It's about time we started to face up to fact and admit the majority were mislead by those serving self interest and not national interest.





In short, by the Conservatives... they led the county in to this mess, they're the ones "in charge" of negotiations and out of or in Europe, they'll be around until the next election. Heaven help us!!
Posted by: Maringer, February 6, 2019, 2:33pm; Reply: 145
Let's not forget that the EU/Japan free trade agreement went into effect at the start of this month - a deal which covers a third of the world's GDP in total. So, pretty big.

A no deal Brexit will see us drop us out of this deal at the end of March.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, February 6, 2019, 10:57pm; Reply: 146
Quoted from Marinerz93


The EU falls down on command of operations, only the British, French (much lower than UK), have any real command of operations that are in the EU.

The US hicks have an enormous amount of experience in operations and have been funding NATO more or less since it was formed and are a superpower and you think an over zealous Belgian MEP with holes in his pockets and plans of dominance, can match the infrastructure needed to replace NATO, the US can call on spy satellites to unmanned drones. This has cost billions to put in place and the rest of the EU are so far behind it's like looking at the Flintstones taking on Predator.

Putin has bemoaned that he feels the US/NATO have surrounded Russia the difference is the language used, Verhofstadt has made speeches in Brussels that the EU Army must front up to Russia, a show of force, is that not a more aggressive stance than what NATO has done.

An EU federal army won't happen, far too expensive, you may get a officer command training station, what will happen and is happening is each country will submit command of it's forces to France or Germany like it currently does now so deployable, interoperable force under a single command carrying out EU foreign policy. You still haven't addressed the cost, some of the EU countries are putting less than the agreed 2% of GDP into defence of their own countries and you think that an EU army can replace NATO.


Like I said it all takes time. And money. But half the reason Russia feels threatened is because this infrastructure gives NATO (the US) offensive capabilities that you say Europe couldn't hope to match unless it ups spending significantly over many years. But it could defend itself.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, February 6, 2019, 11:14pm; Reply: 147
Quoted from louth_in_the_south
What solid evidence have you got that would happen?


Don't you believe your own industry's trade body? Those people don't give a excrement what happens unless it affects their back pockets. And they've come out and said it hits their back pockets.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, February 6, 2019, 11:16pm; Reply: 148
Quoted from louth_in_the_south
All we got from the politicians from both parties and the media before the referendum was that there would be mass unemployment and recession. Didn’t happen. The opposite actually. So why believe them now and throw the democratic vote in the bin ?


We haven't left yet. We have already seen some of the warning signs (like cancellation of investment plans, relocation of some financial services out of the UK).
Posted by: KingstonMariner, February 6, 2019, 11:25pm; Reply: 149
Quoted from forza ivano
without spiking maringer's guns id say the job losses would be widespread through all sectors. the transfer of financial services jobs to Europe and the problems the car industry would face have been widely covered. Tariffs on imported goods would lead to higher prices and less household spending so the retail sector would be quickly affected. Tariffs on exports would lead to our goods becoming too expensive for foreign customers to buy (although the expected collapse in the exchange rate may mitigate that). There would be an almost immediate cessation of new investment - who's going to spend money on new technology/facilities or simple expansion when the country is grinding to a halt? Companies are going to look to cut costs immediately so temps and zero hours staff would feel it immediately. Agriculture would be badly hit, bizarre to think that so many farmers are enthusiastic brexiteers.
there are so many implications - the whole thing is like peeling an onion, you just discover layer after layer of reprecussions. the exchange rate collapses so the EU workers on who we rely find its not worth staying here; not when they can move to Europe and get similar jobs, be closer to home and earn much more (its already happening in the building industry). What happens then to our care sector, our builders and to the hospitality and warehousing industries?

not a prospect i'd like to experience!

the only minor silver lining for no deal would be that it'd certainly sort out the brexit question once and for all. If after a couple of years of doom and chaos it looks like we're surviving and starting to move forward, then Johnson et al have been proved right and everythings hunky dory. if its a complete disaster then the Brexiteers and Little Englanders might finally shut up and a new government would take us back into Europe to try and make up the lost years


I made this point to someone a while back. And she, probably correctly, pointed out it won't quiet the conspiracy theorists. They'd still cook up excuses that it was all the fault of Remoaners for not doing Brexit properly. Don't expect consistency from people that one minute say,' we can do a deal easily, we can do a Norway or a Switzerland', then when they find it's not so easy say 'I told you you can't trust these Europeans to negotiate fairly', or when they find out what a Norway deal actually entails say 'out means out'.
Posted by: Skrill, February 7, 2019, 10:02am; Reply: 150
Nissan’s decision not to begin production of a new model of car in Sunderland dominated the media at the start of the week, despite no jobs actually being lost. Brexit naturally got all the blame, despite a large number of other significant factors including falling demand for diesel cars and the EU’s stringent new emissions standards in the wake of Germany’s major diesel fraud scandal. If it was really a Brexit issue why didn’t Nissan just move production to one of their many manufacturing plants in Spain, or France where they have a strategic partnership with Renault?

Funny how quiet the media was when another Japanese car giant did start a major new production line – just last month Toyota commenced production of the new 2019 Corolla at its Burnaston plant in Derbyshire where over 3000 people are employed. The Corolla is not a niche SUV like the Nissan X-Trail, it is the best-selling car model in the world…

In fact the only mention of the new Corolla on BBC News was a single line in an article puffing up the latest round of no-deal bluster from the firm’s European boss and Greg Clark, which didn’t even mention the fact that new production had started. Not a word from Project Fear cheerleaders Sky News…

In other news, EU President of the European Council (basically where your tax dollars go to), Donald Tusk, says "I’ve been wondering what a special place in hell looks lke for people who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it out safely”. Because not throwing away 39 billion to un-eleceted failed former European leaders year on year is 'unsafe'.



Funny because it was a bunch of hardy Brits that saved Brussels not that long ago.


Posted by: KingstonMariner, February 8, 2019, 8:21pm; Reply: 151
kinnell Skrill. For a 'patriot' your grasp of British military history is dodgy. The blokes you picture were portraying troops in the Netherlands and didn't liberate Brussels (or anywhere, for long, despite their sacrifice).

I thought the whole reaction to Tusk's comment was illuminating. He laid a trap for all the muppets in his use of undiplomatic language. All those Brexiteers who voiced their outrage at being offended were admitting they had no plan! If you're a Brexiteer who had a clear plan then his comments didn't apply.  ;D ;D ;D
Posted by: barralad, February 8, 2019, 8:36pm; Reply: 152
Perhaps more attention should be given to the fact that some of the money we are paying over to the E.U. is to meet our commitments to pensions for our current and former M.E.P.s which of course includes Farage (rhymes with garage) and his merry band of non-attenders. Almost miraculously they all managed to attend the Brussels meeting that was giving out information on their pension entitlements...
Posted by: KingstonMariner, February 8, 2019, 10:14pm; Reply: 153
Quoted from barralad
Perhaps more attention should be given to the fact that some of the money we are paying over to the E.U. is to meet our commitments to pensions for our current and former M.E.P.s which of course includes Farage (rhymes with garage) and his merry band of non-attenders. Almost miraculously they all managed to attend the Brussels meeting that was giving out information on their pension entitlements...


We know their leaders are all a bunch of hypocrites. Rees-Mogg and his Irish relocation, Dyson offshoring to Singapore. I bet Aaron Banks has got his money in a tax haven. I know there's some unsavoury characters on the Remain side, but they don't pretend to be putting Britain first. 'Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.'
Posted by: MarinerWY, February 9, 2019, 2:03am; Reply: 154
Quoted from ska face
It’s worrying that people see neoliberal millionaires like Ummuna and warmongers like Benn as “sensible”. Their brand of politics is dead - dead in the U.K and dead across Europe purely because their business as usual approach has put people in the position we’re in currently - massive disparities in wealth, migrant crises caused by western “intervention” in Africa and the Middle East and facing climate extinction. These people do not want a socialist govt as the gravy train stops when people start to address the root cause of many problems in society and they might have to do some actual work. They’ve been sticking the knife into their own party leadership daily for 3 years, 2 failed coups, constant undermining, briefing against the party and ultimately ignoring the membership which decides Labour policy. Not Corbyn, not Momentum, not shady billionaire donors - the members.

People are sick of the status quo and these people personify it.


Absolutely spot on.
Posted by: Skrill, February 9, 2019, 7:27pm; Reply: 155
Quoted from KingstonMariner
kinnell Skrill. For a 'patriot' your grasp of British military history is dodgy. The blokes you picture were portraying troops in the Netherlands and didn't liberate Brussels (or anywhere, for long, despite their sacrifice).

I thought the whole reaction to Tusk's comment was illuminating. He laid a trap for all the muppets in his use of undiplomatic language. All those Brexiteers who voiced their outrage at being offended were admitting they had no plan! If you're a Brexiteer who had a clear plan then his comments didn't apply.  ;D ;D ;D


If you can find a coloured picture of the liberation of Brussels be my guest. Although Brian Horrocks who was in Bridge too far and led XXX Corps portrayed by Edward Fox, lead the liberation of Brussels so I was close ish.

The plan is very clear. Leave the European Union under WTO rules, regain sovereignty and build a British Bill of Rights enshrining free speech etc. Stop the spending deficit year on year, get a low-tax economy and welcome the investment. Anything would be better than the leftist high tax, statist, censoring, debt ridden governments.  
Posted by: ska face, February 9, 2019, 8:45pm; Reply: 156
The millionaires and billionaires must be absolutely laughing their cocks off at how easy it’s been to get bootlicking little serfs like Skrill to act as willing cheerleaders for them.

Yeah, I’m sure you’re really gonna benefit from things like corporation tax being slashed, and workers’ rights being scrapped, because that’s what the people at the bottom really need.

Don’t you ever get tired of living your life like such a pathetic victim? Oh boo hoo, the Reds are censoring what I can say, or so someone keeps telling me. Pathetic really. Looking forward to reading whatever Breitbart/Spiked article you copy & paste for us next, sure it’ll be illuminating as always.
Posted by: Skrill, February 10, 2019, 6:43pm; Reply: 157
Quoted from ska face
The millionaires and billionaires must be absolutely laughing their cocks off at how easy it’s been to get bootlicking little serfs like Skrill to act as willing cheerleaders for them.

Yeah, I’m sure you’re really gonna benefit from things like corporation tax being slashed, and workers’ rights being scrapped, because that’s what the people at the bottom really need.

Don’t you ever get tired of living your life like such a pathetic victim? Oh boo hoo, the Reds are censoring what I can say, or so someone keeps telling me. Pathetic really. Looking forward to reading whatever Breitbart/Spiked article you copy & paste for us next, sure it’ll be illuminating as always.


It is the left that play the victim card on race, class, and identity in their effort for character assassination. From university diversity quotas and stopping non-left speeches, to social housing while vets live on the streets. To the police being scared of a "far-right" uprising, while we have a opposition in government that is openly Marxist. What a laughable affair, 1984 double-think. That police also don't care about the principle of free speech, look what happened to Harry the Owl in Humberside. I think you'll find UKIP want to make the Big companies pay their fair share of tax returns, and want to leave the EU, which is a massive pro-Big Business lobby environment, destroying the small businesses that make the economies in Europe tick over.

Having lower tax is also the best thing a government can do for the working class and middle classes. Ever heard of the laffer curve? Might want to learn the economics.

Posted by: KingstonMariner, February 11, 2019, 3:28am; Reply: 158
Quoted from Skrill


If you can find a coloured picture of the liberation of Brussels be my guest. Although Brian Horrocks who was in Bridge too far and led XXX Corps portrayed by Edward Fox, lead the liberation of Brussels so I was close ish.

The plan is very clear. Leave the European Union under WTO rules, regain sovereignty and build a British Bill of Rights enshrining free speech etc. Stop the spending deficit year on year, get a low-tax economy and welcome the investment. Anything would be better than the leftist high tax, statist, censoring, debt ridden governments.  


Why does it have to be colour? I think we can all figuratively, get the picture even if it's in black and white.

And is it so difficult to find pictures of actors from A Bridge Too Far portraying characters who were involved in the liberation of Brussels? If only there were easy to find colour pictures out there of Edward Fox as Horrocks ....oh!
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075784/mediaviewer/rm1048825344?ft0=name&fv0=nm0002081&ft1=image_type&fv1=still_frame

flipping hell Skrill. I've heard of lazy racism, but you're the first case of lazy patriotism I've come across. If you're going to play the big patriot and quote war stories, pull your finger out and get them flipping right.

As for a Bill of Rights. We've got one of those already. Have had for 300 years. Strengthened and expanded by case law, and further legislation including the Human Rights Act which enshrined principles of the ECHR drafted by a British MP and sponsored by Winston Churchill. Again, if you want to be a British patriot, try to learn about your own flipping country.
Posted by: Maringer, February 11, 2019, 10:07am; Reply: 159
Quoted from Skrill


Having lower tax is also the best thing a government can do for the working class and middle classes. Ever heard of the laffer curve? Might want to learn the economics.



Flipping heck. An advocate of supply side economics on the Fishy!?! Who'd have thought it? Supply side economics is nothing but snake oil which has failed every test since the 1980s, though making the wealthy even wealthier along the way (some would say by design).

Empirical evidence has pretty much shown the  Laffer curve to be bullshit (or at least the policies based on the theory) - Reagan's tax cuts caused the US deficit and national debt to balloon, as did GWB's tax cuts. In between, we had Clinton's tax rises leading to a boom in revenue and job creation. The US economy did OK under Reagan and GWB because the tax cuts acted as a stimulus - i.e. the US Government took on masses of debt and this found its way into the pockets of workers, but most of it went to the wealthy.

I'm actually all for reasonable amounts of government debt, but only if it does some good. Making millionaires into billionaires isn't doing much good. Which is mostly what happened with QE in this country, oddly enough.

If you're going to tell people to learn the economics, probably best to make sure that you aren't promoting something which has been discredited thoroughly. You'll be advocating a return to the Gold Standard next!
Posted by: Chrisblor, February 11, 2019, 1:49pm; Reply: 160
Quoted from Skrill

Having lower tax is also the best thing a government can do for the working class and middle classes. Ever heard of the laffer curve? Might want to learn the economics.



hahahahahah m8 I've got a degree in economics and I can tell you the laffer curve is a load of discredited balderdash with no grounding in reality



Posted by: mariner91, February 11, 2019, 2:41pm; Reply: 161
Nah Skrill read it on Breitbart so it must be gospel.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, February 13, 2019, 1:45pm; Reply: 162
Quoted from KingstonMariner


We haven't left yet. We have already seen some of the warning signs (like cancellation of investment plans, relocation of some financial services out of the UK).


I keep thinking there is one common denominator in all the "doom and gloom" that is being bandied about... the Self-servative government who for practically nine years have overseen an economic decline

Whatever happens with Brexit, they'll still be the ones mismanaging our country...
Posted by: KingstonMariner, February 13, 2019, 7:00pm; Reply: 163
Quoted from Chrisblor


hahahahahah m8 I've got a degree in economics and I can tell you the laffer curve is a load of discredited balderdash with no grounding in reality





You surprise me. A poorly briefed Brexiteer. Who'd have thought it.
Posted by: Bawmariner, February 13, 2019, 11:02pm; Reply: 164
Quoted from Skrill


Having lower tax is also the best thing a government can do for the working class and middle classes. Ever heard of the laffer curve? Might want to learn the economics.



Another one with a degree in economics here although probably one from those 'lefty unis'. Even if there is a small element of truth in the laffer curve, it like all things would run into diminishing marginal returns so reducing tax further and further would have less and less effect.

Anway the UK has one of the lowest levels of corporation tax in the west. If a company was going to be attracted from abroad by the low tax rate they're probably already here. Trumps tax cuts are showing what happens when you cut an already low corporate tax. You get a small amount of investment but most is just a give away to the rich. All this to make the American deficit scarily high. Debt isn't necessarily a bad thing, Infrastructure projects with decent business cases should pay for themselves but not just to simply give away to the rich who will flee with their money when they inevitably have to pay the debt back.
Posted by: Marinerz93, February 16, 2019, 11:17pm; Reply: 165
Quoted from KingstonMariner


Like I said it all takes time. And money. But half the reason Russia feels threatened is because this infrastructure gives NATO (the US) offensive capabilities that you say Europe couldn't hope to match unless it ups spending significantly over many years. But it could defend itself.


If you are going to implement a European Army to front up to Russia as been spouted in Brussels you don't have time or anywhere near the money / resources

Russia as a military power has total military 3,586,128 (2,572, 500 as active reservists) they are ranked 2nd in the world after the US. Pick a fight with Russia and no doubt China will step in. China are in 3rd place with  2,693, 000 active personnel, we simply don't have the man power or bullets needed without the US.

EU countries ranked in order of firepower and outside of France and UK, with maybe Romania you can forget the rest of any notable military expertise, the Netherlands sent Marines to Iraq and when they came back a lot of them cracked up as they couldn't handle it, they had to be screened and counselled in Cyprus before they were allowed home. In my time supporting NATO ops, I have only ever seen the ones listed below in bold.

5th - France
6th - UK

10th - Germany
11th - Italy
19th - Spain
22nd - Poland
28th - Greece
30th - Czech Republic
31st - Sweden
38th - Netherlands
40th - Romania

54th - Denmark
57th - Hungary
59th - Finland
60th - Bulgaria
61st - Austria
62nd - Slovakia
63rd - Portugal
68th - Belgium
72nd - Croatia
92nd - Slovenia
95th - Lithuania
105th - Latvia
108th - Estonia

116th - Ireland

List goes up to 136 places so outside that list is, Republic of Cyprus, Luxembourg and Malta.

Then add in countries that have closer ties with Russia
Main allies are China, Serbia, Cuba, Syria.

Important partners
Pakistan, Laos. Venezuela, Greece, Armenia, Tajikistan, Vietnam, Mongolia, Slovakia, India, Belarus, North Korea, Algeria, Iran, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, so don't expect a roll over.

Then we talk about command, so who would make the decision to commit a European army to war? If it’s the European Union, would it have to be a unanimous decision by all EU nations, as it is now to admit a new country to the bloc? Norway and Greece might have different ideas of what’s an issue worth fighting for, and a pan-European army would have numerous weak links, of which the political would be the biggest. Also if only 4 out of 29 NATO members met the NATO threshold of spending at least 2 percent of their GDP on defense (the U.S. accounts for 70 percent of NATO spending), then why would a pan-European force be any better funded? Europe has enough problems sustaining the military it has, such as most of Germany’s advanced Typhoon fighters being unfit to fly .

Charles de Gaulle famously asked about France: "How can anyone govern a nation that has 246 different kinds of cheese?"

"I would rather fight a coalition than be a part of one," said Napoleon Bonaparte. Napoleon knew that an alliance is only as strong as its weakest link.

However, it’s one thing to create a small EU brigade that could be used for small peacekeeping or humanitarian operations in the Balkans or North Africa, or maybe dispatching a couple of battalions to Eastern Europe as a diplomatic signal. But combat against a large, high-tech opponent like Russia, even in a limited conflict such as a Russian invasion of the Baltic States, would require divisions and brigades supported by all the specialized systems that a modern army needs: air cover, air transport, electronic warfare, reconnaissance systems, and more. Currently, many of those capabilities are provided by the United States: NATO’s 2011 military intervention in Libya was only made possible because the U.S. provided air tankers, smart bombs and reconnaissance planes.
Posted by: arryarryarry, February 18, 2019, 2:55pm; Reply: 166
Quoted from KingstonMariner


Why does it have to be colour? I think we can all figuratively, get the picture even if it's in black and white.

And is it so difficult to find pictures of actors from A Bridge Too Far portraying characters who were involved in the liberation of Brussels? If only there were easy to find colour pictures out there of Edward Fox as Horrocks ....oh!
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075784/mediaviewer/rm1048825344?ft0=name&fv0=nm0002081&ft1=image_type&fv1=still_frame

flipping hell Skrill. I've heard of lazy racism, but you're the first case of lazy patriotism I've come across. If you're going to play the big patriot and quote war stories, pull your finger out and get them flipping right.

As for a Bill of Rights. We've got one of those already. Have had for 300 years. Strengthened and expanded by case law, and further legislation including the Human Rights Act which enshrined principles of the ECHR drafted by a British MP and sponsored by Winston Churchill. Again, if you want to be a British patriot, try to learn about your own flipping country.


If you think that Winston Churchill ever thought that the ECHR would prevent this country from removing terrorists or preventing twits who went out to support ISIS from returning to the UK then you are clearly raving mad.
Posted by: Maringer, February 18, 2019, 3:31pm; Reply: 167
They are our citizens. It's our responsibility to deal with them, even if we end up incarcerating them for years and it costs us a fortune. Same goes for the young lass that went out there, got knocked up and then wants to come back.

If you're going to have citizenship, you can't pick and choose the ones you want.
Posted by: grimsby pete, February 18, 2019, 6:59pm; Reply: 168
Quoted from Maringer
They are our citizens. It's our responsibility to deal with them, even if we end up incarcerating them for years and it costs us a fortune. Same goes for the young lass that went out there, got knocked up and then wants to come back.

If you're going to have citizenship, you can't pick and choose the ones you want.


Fully agree we have to take  responsibility of our citizens and lock them up if need be,

It is not up to the USA to look after them.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, February 18, 2019, 10:15pm; Reply: 169
Quoted from Marinerz93


If you are going to implement a European Army to front up to Russia as been spouted in Brussels you don't have time or anywhere near the money / resources

Russia as a military power has total military 3,586,128 (2,572, 500 as active reservists) they are ranked 2nd in the world after the US. Pick a fight with Russia and no doubt China will step in. China are in 3rd place with  2,693, 000 active personnel, we simply don't have the man power or bullets needed without the US.

EU countries ranked in order of firepower and outside of France and UK, with maybe Romania you can forget the rest of any notable military expertise, the Netherlands sent Marines to Iraq and when they came back a lot of them cracked up as they couldn't handle it, they had to be screened and counselled in Cyprus before they were allowed home. In my time supporting NATO ops, I have only ever seen the ones listed below in bold.

5th - France
6th - UK

10th - Germany
11th - Italy
19th - Spain
22nd - Poland
28th - Greece
30th - Czech Republic
31st - Sweden
38th - Netherlands
40th - Romania

54th - Denmark
57th - Hungary
59th - Finland
60th - Bulgaria
61st - Austria
62nd - Slovakia
63rd - Portugal
68th - Belgium
72nd - Croatia
92nd - Slovenia
95th - Lithuania
105th - Latvia
108th - Estonia

116th - Ireland

List goes up to 136 places so outside that list is, Republic of Cyprus, Luxembourg and Malta.

Then add in countries that have closer ties with Russia
Main allies are China, Serbia, Cuba, Syria.

Important partners
Pakistan, Laos. Venezuela, Greece, Armenia, Tajikistan, Vietnam, Mongolia, Slovakia, India, Belarus, North Korea, Algeria, Iran, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, so don't expect a roll over.

Then we talk about command, so who would make the decision to commit a European army to war? If it’s the European Union, would it have to be a unanimous decision by all EU nations, as it is now to admit a new country to the bloc? Norway and Greece might have different ideas of what’s an issue worth fighting for, and a pan-European army would have numerous weak links, of which the political would be the biggest. Also if only 4 out of 29 NATO members met the NATO threshold of spending at least 2 percent of their GDP on defense (the U.S. accounts for 70 percent of NATO spending), then why would a pan-European force be any better funded? Europe has enough problems sustaining the military it has, such as most of Germany’s advanced Typhoon fighters being unfit to fly .

Charles de Gaulle famously asked about France: "How can anyone govern a nation that has 246 different kinds of cheese?"

"I would rather fight a coalition than be a part of one," said Napoleon Bonaparte. Napoleon knew that an alliance is only as strong as its weakest link.

However, it’s one thing to create a small EU brigade that could be used for small peacekeeping or humanitarian operations in the Balkans or North Africa, or maybe dispatching a couple of battalions to Eastern Europe as a diplomatic signal. But combat against a large, high-tech opponent like Russia, even in a limited conflict such as a Russian invasion of the Baltic States, would require divisions and brigades supported by all the specialized systems that a modern army needs: air cover, air transport, electronic warfare, reconnaissance systems, and more. Currently, many of those capabilities are provided by the United States: NATO’s 2011 military intervention in Libya was only made possible because the U.S. provided air tankers, smart bombs and reconnaissance planes.


Who ssaid owt about picking a fight with Russia? NATO is doing better in those stakes than the EU right now. I agree with Trump on one thing. The EU needs to be able to defend itself. Like I said, it'll take time.

As for the capability to attack other countries like Libya. Well that worked out well for us didn't it?
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, February 19, 2019, 2:01pm; Reply: 170
Quoted from KingstonMariner


Who ssaid owt about picking a fight with Russia? NATO is doing better in those stakes than the EU right now. I agree with Trump on one thing. The EU needs to be able to defend itself. Like I said, it'll take time.

As for the capability to attack other countries like Libya. Well that worked out well for us didn't it?


Another one of Cameron's stand-out achievements.... why he's not been knighted yet I just don't know  ;)

Posted by: Marinerz93, February 19, 2019, 11:18pm; Reply: 171
Quoted from KingstonMariner


Who ssaid owt about picking a fight with Russia? NATO is doing better in those stakes than the EU right now. I agree with Trump on one thing. The EU needs to be able to defend itself. Like I said, it'll take time.

As for the capability to attack other countries like Libya. Well that worked out well for us didn't it?


The EU top cheeses have been spouting for the last couple of years the need for an EU army to front up to Russia, a far more aggressive stance than what NATO has been accused of by Putin. The Federal EU Army will take an age to replace the capabilities we have under NATO, you don't seem to recognize that this will cost billions and who is going to pay for it, as no country has the resources the yanks have and also the command structure, if the UK stayed in the EU would you be happy with the Belgians commanding our forces into war.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, February 20, 2019, 8:02am; Reply: 172
Do you realise that Cameron secured a veto over us joining a European Army and "ever closer union" before the brexit vote even took place?
Posted by: Marinerz93, February 21, 2019, 3:08pm; Reply: 173
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
Do you realise that Cameron secured a veto over us joining a European Army and "ever closer union" before the brexit vote even took place?


In a federal Europe where countries powers have been transferred to the EU, there will be no veto, watch and see.

Posted by: grimsby pete, February 21, 2019, 6:33pm; Reply: 174
I think Ohman is the best Swedish player ever to play for town,

Thought I would just highjack this thread, :P
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, February 21, 2019, 7:16pm; Reply: 175
Quoted from Marinerz93


In a federal Europe where countries powers have been transferred to the EU, there will be no veto, watch and see.



The point is that we have a veto over ever closer union, so we would never be part of a federal europe and therefore is a bogus reason to vote for brexit.
Posted by: Maringer, February 21, 2019, 9:34pm; Reply: 176
Quoted from grimsby pete
I think Ohman is the best Swedish player ever to play for town,

Thought I would just highjack this thread, :P


I DEMAND THAT THE MODS DELETE THIS FOOTBALL-RELATED POST IN A NON-FOOTY THREAD!
Posted by: KingstonMariner, February 22, 2019, 12:32am; Reply: 177
Quoted from Marinerz93


The EU top cheeses have been spouting for the last couple of years the need for an EU army to front up to Russia, a far more aggressive stance than what NATO has been accused of by Putin. The Federal EU Army will take an age to replace the capabilities we have under NATO, you don't seem to recognize that this will cost billions and who is going to pay for it, as no country has the resources the yanks have and also the command structure, if the UK stayed in the EU would you be happy with the Belgians commanding our forces into war.


How can I put this more clearly for you. The original point I made about the EU army is that now the UK is leaving the EU they can get on with it, without us blocking progress. It isn't going to cost us money as we won't be part of it.

A lot of NATO spending is on force projection. The burghers of Europe won't want to spend more than they have to, so the EU army will adopt a defensive posture. Unlike NATO which has actively encircled Russia since the collapse of the SU (despite promises not to do anything of the sort). Putin's mob do moan about the EU, but they reserve their worst vitriol for NATO.

As for the Yanks having more resources to pay for things than Europe. You're having a giraffe aren't you.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, February 22, 2019, 12:39am; Reply: 178
Quoted from grimsby pete
I think Ohman is the best Swedish player ever to play for town,

Thought I would just highjack this thread, :P


What about Graham Taylor. I'm sure I read that he was a Suede.  ;)
Posted by: KingstonMariner, February 22, 2019, 12:39am; Reply: 179
Quoted from KingstonMariner


What about Graham Taylor. I'm sure I read that he was a Suede.  ;)


Oh, and more seriously.........Martin Pringle.
Posted by: Maringer, February 22, 2019, 10:09am; Reply: 180
Even if a federal entity such as the United States of Europe was to appear at an unspecified date in the future (and I agree this is the current direction of travel for many in the EU at present), we're talking about it being at least a decade or two away yet.

Surely it would have been much more sensible to instead remain in the EU to reap the economic benefits and then only leave if we don't want to be part of a federal Europe at some unspecified date in the future? Use the veto to protect our own interests as we have done for years, bend the rules in other areas (just like most of the other EU members) as required and use soft power to try to move opinion away from a federal future.

Nah, that's much too sensible. Let's instead crash out with no deal, wrecking our economy in the process as the world's largest and most successful trading bloc shakes their collective heads in disbelief.

As I've said in the past it is much better to be in the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in. Especially when it is so much warmer and better for you inside the tent.
Posted by: grimsby pete, February 22, 2019, 11:48am; Reply: 181
Well at the rate the MP's are resigning from their parties,

We will have to have another election soon as there will be no overall control possible with all the parties calling each other.

The latest Labour MP to resign Ian Mitchell will not be joining the new Independant crowd.

What a farce our politics have become.
Posted by: Maringer, February 22, 2019, 11:59am; Reply: 182
Ian Austin, not Ian Mitchell. I can see how you became confused!

He's a bit different to the other Labour MPs who have quit as he's an Brexiteer so he's not going to join this new group who are looking for a second referendum.

Absolutely no surprise that he's jumped ship and he won't be calling a by-election. He's got the tiniest of majorities from 2017 (22 votes!) and has done nothing but attack the Labour leadership over the past couple of years whilst falling out with his CLP so he's a dead man walking politically. His best hope of keeping his seat is to remain independent and go for the UKIP vote.

Next one to go will almost certainly be Jon Mann, another who voted against the whip in the 'Meaningful vote' amendment last month and who has done little but attack Corbyn over the past few years. Question is whether he would be popular enough to split the Labour vote in the next election or not. He'll not join the 'Independent Group' either as he's a Brexiteer as well.

Not sure whether Hoey will go or not. She's so nutty that nobody has a clue what she's going to do next.
Posted by: grimsby pete, February 22, 2019, 12:56pm; Reply: 183
My muddled brain was thinking is he related to Austin Mitchell ?   ;D

Then put the wrong surname,

By the sound of it there are a few more from both parties about to jump ship.

Is it all worth it we might ask.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, February 22, 2019, 1:27pm; Reply: 184
Quoted from Maringer
Even if a federal entity such as the United States of Europe was to appear at an unspecified date in the future (and I agree this is the current direction of travel for many in the EU at present), we're talking about it being at least a decade or two away yet.

Surely it would have been much more sensible to instead remain in the EU to reap the economic benefits and then only leave if we don't want to be part of a federal Europe at some unspecified date in the future? Use the veto to protect our own interests as we have done for years, bend the rules in other areas (just like most of the other EU members) as required and use soft power to try to move opinion away from a federal future.

Nah, that's much too sensible. Let's instead crash out with no deal, wrecking our economy in the process as the world's largest and most successful trading bloc shakes their collective heads in disbelief.

As I've said in the past it is much better to be in the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in. Especially when it is so much warmer and better for you inside the tent.


I tend to agree with you to some extent KM

One thing though I disagree with is the much over-used cliché "crashing out"

A crash to me implies that it's something that happens out of nothing.... this mayhem has been going on now for nigh on 3 years. Has to be the slowest crash on record!!  ::)
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, February 22, 2019, 7:12pm; Reply: 185
They haven't come up with much of a plan in the 3 years though, so it will probably feel very "crashy" for many businesses.

Out of interest does anyone genuinely think we will leave without a deal?
Posted by: chrissy, February 22, 2019, 9:37pm; Reply: 186
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
They haven't come up with much of a plan in the 3 years though, so it will probably feel very "crashy" for many businesses.

Out of interest does anyone genuinely think we will leave without a deal?


I am beginning to think we will not leave at all.
Posted by: Marinerz93, February 23, 2019, 10:28pm; Reply: 187
Quoted from KingstonMariner


How can I put this more clearly for you. The original point I made about the EU army is that now the UK is leaving the EU they can get on with it, without us blocking progress. It isn't going to cost us money as we won't be part of it.

A lot of NATO spending is on force projection. The burghers of Europe won't want to spend more than they have to, so the EU army will adopt a defensive posture. Unlike NATO which has actively encircled Russia since the collapse of the SU (despite promises not to do anything of the sort). Putin's mob do moan about the EU, but they reserve their worst vitriol for NATO.

As for the Yanks having more resources to pay for things than Europe. You're having a giraffe aren't you.


You were claiming that an EU army will be well funded and be a force good enough to replace NATO.



I am basing my views on what I have seen and experienced over 22 years being deployed on ops and on joint exercises, working with the Yanks and other European forces. The EU can do what ever they like once we have left, because it will be a excrement storm if the likes of Verhofstadt and Yunker get their way when a Federal EU army stands up and fronts up to Russia as a show of force for their new federation as they claim.

Vitriol now for NATO, again lets see what happens with this emerging federal EU army, we'll soon see what the Russians think.

Proof is in the pudding how much does the US pay into NATO each year, deduct that and what the UK spends on NATO = massive hole in the finances.




If Brexit fails we'll be knee deep in what the EU wants from the UK, oh I forgot we'll just play the veto card.

Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, February 24, 2019, 9:26am; Reply: 188
Don't let the facts get in the way of your argument Marinerz93  - https://fullfact.org/europe/hunt-eu-army/
Posted by: Marinerz93, February 24, 2019, 5:33pm; Reply: 189
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
Don't let the facts get in the way of your argument Marinerz93  - https://fullfact.org/europe/hunt-eu-army/


I don't mind been proven wrong with facts Bobby, facts are great when they are current, you've just roasted yourself as that report was Published: 20th Jun 2016



I do see an element of current truth in the fact that the "The EU has a long record of creating institutions through the 'back door' and the creation of a EU Army will be no different. All of a sudden, the British public will be presented with a 'done deal' and British troops will find themselves operating under the EU flag rather than the Union flag." EU definitely has form for creating institutions through the back door and announcing what we have just signed up to and our politicians are happy to let them do it so when people complain they just blame it on the EU.

All hail Brexit.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, February 25, 2019, 7:57am; Reply: 190
That's a pretty poor attempt at using diversion tactics to shy away from the truth. The fact the article is 2 years old is utterly irrelevant. It is still impossible for the UK (or any other country) to be raid-roaded into an EU army against their will.

Your obviously paranoid, stupid, ignorant or all three.
Posted by: Maringer, February 25, 2019, 8:02am; Reply: 191
Pro tip: inserting meme gifs into a post doesn't do anything but make it look puerile.

As for the rest of the post, it is, as usual, handwavy projections about something which somebody claims might happen in the future in the event of perfidious politicians voting against their own national interest for an undisclosed reason. All whilst ignoring the fact that we could opt out or veto and if they tried to take the veto away in this regard, then we could consider leaving for a sensible reason.

The fact that you singled out the quote from UKIP as being the only true part is risible.

The daftest point of this is that you're so keen on NATO when it is pretty obvious that the Yanks couldn't give a flying excrement about the alliance, especially with the orange excrement gibbon in chief running the show over there. All they see it as is an opportunityto  extend their own sphere of influence, defence be damned. As KM notes, it was the thoughtless expansionism of NATO into the Baltic states and Eastern Europe which has led to most of the modern tensions with Russia, and you can add in a civil war in the Ukraine into the mix as well.
Posted by: Marinerz93, February 25, 2019, 7:37pm; Reply: 192
Quoted from Maringer
Pro tip: inserting meme gifs into a post doesn't do anything but make it look puerile.

Pro tip  ;D



As for the rest of the post, it is, as usual, handwavy projections about something which somebody claims might happen in the future in the event of perfidious politicians voting against their own national interest for an undisclosed reason. All whilst ignoring the fact that we could opt out or veto and if they tried to take the veto away in this regard, then we could consider leaving for a sensible reason.

pro tip, we joined a common market not political union, did this political union happen with our permission, no, did it happen over night, no. It all happened over many years of back door deals and people turning a blind eye to what was going on, did we vote for it no.
Projections are based on what is being voiced by EU leaders who have voiced things before and they have come to fruition, like I said in a previous post, time will tell as it has with the EU army you and many other cry baby remainers said would never happen.


The fact that you singled out the quote from UKIP as being the only true part is risible.

Everything UKIP has made public knowledge about how the EU operates has exposed the EU for what it is and where it is heading. Also if you listen to other parties within the EU it isn't just UKIP exposing what is going on and what is planned.

The daftest point of this is that you're so keen on NATO when it is pretty obvious that the Yanks couldn't give a flying excrement about the alliance, especially with the orange excrement gibbon in chief running the show over there. All they see it as is an opportunityto  extend their own sphere of influence, defence be damned. As KM notes, it was the thoughtless expansionism of NATO into the Baltic states and Eastern Europe which has led to most of the modern tensions with Russia, and you can add in a civil war in the Ukraine into the mix as well.


No doubt it show cases US military and helps their sales like it does for the UK.

Yes, lets blame NATO and the yanks far more too it and far more political, pro tip, read The constitution of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea.

Posted by: Marinerz93, February 25, 2019, 7:57pm; Reply: 193
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
That's a pretty poor attempt at using diversion tactics to shy away from the truth. The fact the article is 2 years old is utterly irrelevant. It is still impossible for the UK (or any other country) to be raid-roaded into an EU army against their will.

Your obviously paranoid, stupid, ignorant or all three.




The report is nonsense, option to leave will be gone with the first puff of air from a PM wanting to make a name for themselves aka peace envoy Blair, all it will take is someone like verhofstadt or Junker and our politicians with the breaking strain of a kit kat will give in and the next thing you know is we are knee deep in it as mission creep has set in as it always does.

Truth, did the UK join a common market or political union, does the ECJ have jurisdiction over UK law, who voted for that, who gave the EU the power for that.

I'll take Paranoid, you can keep stupid and ignorant.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, February 25, 2019, 8:55pm; Reply: 194
I could prove you wrong on every point you make, but i'd just be wasting my time. Your clearly a nut-job.
Posted by: Marinerz93, February 25, 2019, 10:26pm; Reply: 195
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
I could prove you wrong on every point you make, but i'd just be wasting my time. Your clearly a nut-job.


You haven't proven any points but given dated so called facts from June 2016. So it would seem we are both a bit nutty

Posted by: mariner91, February 25, 2019, 10:44pm; Reply: 196
Quoted from Marinerz93


You haven't proven any points but given dated so called facts from June 2016. So it would seem we are both a bit nutty



Except they're not dated because nothing has changed. We have the right to veto things right up until we leave.
Posted by: chrissy, February 26, 2019, 2:54pm; Reply: 197
Well well well, how many times has May gone back on her word ?

She said no snap election,

She had said no PM would let N Ireland be different to the rest of the UK,

Gone back on both of those,

She said over one hundred times we are leaving with or without a deal on March 29th,

Now she says it can be extended.

I can not take her serious anymore,

Mind you Corbyne is not better  he says we should have another referendum

Posted by: cmackenzie4, February 26, 2019, 6:45pm; Reply: 198
Question

If we have another referendum and the leave wins again what happens then ? and if we have another referendum and the remain wins would there be another referendum after that ? (best out of 3)

How would another vote (which is looking more likely now)   work? I’m puzzled
Posted by: DocDock, February 27, 2019, 8:40am; Reply: 199
Quoted from cmackenzie4
Question

If we have another referendum and the leave wins again what happens then ? and if we have another referendum and the remain wins would there be another referendum after that ? (best out of 3)

How would another vote (which is looking more likely now)   work? I’m puzzled


The only thing that’s certain is that nothing is certain at the moment. Seemingly nobody but May and the Yes men that surround her think her deal is a good deal. The fact her Government can’t come to an agreement with the EU means to me that the only realistic option is to put all the options back out to the public by means of a vote. Personally i hope that the shitshow of the last 2 and a half years has shown many that leaving the EU is a bad idea but I’m not holding out much hope.
Posted by: grimsby pete, February 27, 2019, 10:37am; Reply: 200
It is becoming a situation like our new ground,

Yes we are getting it ,(  Brexit )

BUT

Not yet.

Maybe in another 20 years.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, February 27, 2019, 1:41pm; Reply: 201
Quoted from chrissy
Well well well, how many times has May gone back on her word ?

She said no snap election,

She had said no PM would let N Ireland be different to the rest of the UK,

Gone back on both of those,

She said over one hundred times we are leaving with or without a deal on March 29th,

Now she says it can be extended.

I can not take her serious anymore,

Mind you Corbyne is not better  he says we should have another referendum



I never could Chrissy...

We'd probably be better off with Noel Edmonds in charge

At least he's got plenty of experience wrapping up "Deal or No Deal" scenarios without things dragging on and on and on
Posted by: AdamHaddock, February 27, 2019, 3:03pm; Reply: 202
Quoted from cmackenzie4
Question

If we have another referendum and the leave wins again what happens then ? and if we have another referendum and the remain wins would there be another referendum after that ? (best out of 3)

How would another vote (which is looking more likely now)   work? I’m puzzled


It would presumably be a choice between May's deal and remain with the result being final
Posted by: Maringer, February 27, 2019, 5:46pm; Reply: 203
For any second referendum you'd ideally have some sort of a weighted vote or a transferrable vote but then the problem is that there aren't really two 'remain' options to choose from to balance out either side.

For leave you would have May's deal or No deal, However, without another remain option, having a fair and unbiased weighting would be very difficult. You'd simply end up with May's deal going through as hardcore Brexiteers voted for No deal followed by May's deal and remainers would vote for Remain followed by May's deal. If the possibility of EEA membership was on the cards it might be a different case, but it's just not.

As a thought experiment, I've seen some say we would have a weighted vote where the votes of the young are of greater value than those of the old! After all, they are the ones who are going to be living with the result for (often much) longer. Needless to say, most Brexiteers wouldn't be very happy with this outcome as they are generally much older and the best part of a million of them have died since the last referendum as it stands so you would guarantee a sizeable remain victory!

Oddly enough, if we didn't have a First Past the Post voting system in parliamentary elections, I reckon we'd have seen a second referendum voted through parliament a long while ago, either following a General Election or more probably, with remain MPs from all sides banding together to defeat the government. If the electoral calculus didn't indicate Labour might lose so many seats in their leave constituencies by backing a second referendum, I think they would have thrown their weight behind it some time ago. As it is, they've been twiddling their collective thumbs doing nothing whilst May pisses around assuming that the government would fall to pieces. They've underestimated just how much humiliation and dishonesty the Tories will accept to remain in power and it seems to have worked for them as the electorate doesn't seem to blame them for this mess which is entirely of their own making.

Thing is, I can't see the way to a second referendum even now when so many MPs obviously want to back it. It seems most likely that the Tories (probably with the help of a bunch of Labour MPs) will decide to push through May's deal as the least bad option. God help us if they don't as a No Deal would be catastrophic.
Posted by: Marinerz93, February 27, 2019, 11:08pm; Reply: 204
Quoted from cmackenzie4
Question

If we have another referendum and the leave wins again what happens then ? and if we have another referendum and the remain wins would there be another referendum after that ? (best out of 3)

How would another vote (which is looking more likely now)   work? I’m puzzled


If there was another vote and remain won, just like what happened to Ireland, people are now more informed and thus the decision is final and binding. Otherwise we'll keep having vote after vote until all the old racist anti youth voters are out numbered by kids who haven't been born yet.

The day democracy dies is when remain win, it will be catastrophic for every man woman child and gerbil in the UK.
Posted by: monkeyboy, February 28, 2019, 6:32am; Reply: 205
I dont want another vote unless its the following three options 1. Leave   2 Leave and hang all the politicians for going against the will of the people. 3 Dont remain.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, February 28, 2019, 1:12pm; Reply: 206
IF there were to be another referendum AND the result was still to leave it would be highly interesting as to what might happen then?

I wonder if there are actually any plans in place to manage an exit or do the "powers that be" think that we'll never leave and so have just pushed this around for the last three years knowing that we would always remain?
Posted by: Maringer, February 28, 2019, 2:30pm; Reply: 207
Any second referendum would have to specify just what sort of a Brexit we would be voting on. If we're going to leave, it will have to be either May's deal or No deal. Literally no other options on the table or possible. If the electorate were daft enough to vote for a No deal, I'd imagine some politicians would stand down as it would be extremely challenging to deal with things once the crap hits the fan.

I certainly think that most politicians have assumed that there would be another vote on the final deal (Rees Mogg even suggested it would be a good idea), but I think the incompetence we've seen from both of the main parties hasn't been a show. That said, if you were trying to make a balls-up of things deliberately, you'd certainly want the likes of Davies, Raab,  Johnson, Fox etc running the show.

P.S. And just look how we're 'Taking back control':

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47400679
Posted by: Maringer, March 1, 2019, 12:42pm; Reply: 208
Hmmm. Interesting if this report is true/comes to pass:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/28/labour-moving-towards-plan-to-let-mays-brexit-deal-pass-if-it-faces-public-vote

Fundamentally, Labour would say we'll back May's deal to get it through parliament with the proviso it going to a second referendum. This would obviously then be an in/out option with the electorate at least knowing what they are voting for this time around.

Electoral calculus would tend to indicate that Remain would win this time around, but then who knows, because that's what everyone assumed last time?

Of course, this wouldn't settle things for many hard Brexiteers regardless of which way the decision went. Bizarrely, some still seem to think that a No deal Brexit would be for the best despite all evidence to the contrary. They would either be complaining about losing or complaining that we don't have a 'proper' Brexit when the economy takes a hit as anticipated.

Regardless, I'll bet Farage is rubbing his hands with glee - he'll be back centre stage before he knows it and will probably get the chance to fail to be elected as an MP again in any number of seats.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, March 1, 2019, 1:16pm; Reply: 209
Quoted from Maringer
Any second referendum would have to specify just what sort of a Brexit we would be voting on. If we're going to leave, it will have to be either May's deal or No deal. Literally no other options on the table or possible. If the electorate were daft enough to vote for a No deal, I'd imagine some politicians would stand down as it would be extremely challenging to deal with things once the crap hits the fan.

I certainly think that most politicians have assumed that there would be another vote on the final deal (Rees Mogg even suggested it would be a good idea), but I think the incompetence we've seen from both of the main parties hasn't been a show. That said, if you were trying to make a balls-up of things deliberately, you'd certainly want the likes of Davies, Raab,  Johnson, Fox etc running the show.

P.S. And just look how we're 'Taking back control':

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47400679


It only came to my attention recently who came up with this slogan - Dominic Cummings

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2019/01/221871/dominic-cummings-now-2019-brexit

https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/perspective/eu-ref-haughton.aspx

Like what he did or not, he very cleverly added the "back" into the initial form of the slogan to make people feel that they were going to be returning to the "good old days" when we ruled the waves etc





Posted by: Limerick Mariner, March 2, 2019, 9:46am; Reply: 210
Quoted from Maringer
Hmmm. Interesting if this report is true/comes to pass:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/28/labour-moving-towards-plan-to-let-mays-brexit-deal-pass-if-it-faces-public-vote

Fundamentally, Labour would say we'll back May's deal to get it through parliament with the proviso it going to a second referendum. This would obviously then be an in/out option with the electorate at least knowing what they are voting for this time around.

Electoral calculus would tend to indicate that Remain would win this time around, but then who knows, because that's what everyone assumed last time?

Of course, this wouldn't settle things for many hard Brexiteers regardless of which way the decision went. Bizarrely, some still seem to think that a No deal Brexit would be for the best despite all evidence to the contrary. They would either be complaining about losing or complaining that we don't have a 'proper' Brexit when the economy takes a hit as anticipated.

Regardless, I'll bet Farage is rubbing his hands with glee - he'll be back centre stage before he knows it and will probably get the chance to fail to be elected as an MP again in any number of seats.


From what I've read it all depends on turnout - if the youth turnout at the same level as the pensioners Remain will win comfortably. If the first referendum had been in September rather than June we might have a different result. Exams just finished, drunk and hungover Uni and A Level students thought Remain would win and didn't bother to vote...
Posted by: KingstonMariner, March 2, 2019, 5:04pm; Reply: 211
So now EU immigration is down, and non-EU immigration is up, I wonder if those Brexiteers who were motivated by racist tendancies (some not all mind) are feeling happier now that their aged mother is going to be looked after by a woman from west Africa rather than a Slav.
Posted by: Marinerz93, March 2, 2019, 5:27pm; Reply: 212
Quoted from FishOutOfWater
IF there were to be another referendum AND the result was still to leave it would be highly interesting as to what might happen then?

I wonder if there are actually any plans in place to manage an exit or do the "powers that be" think that we'll never leave and so have just pushed this around for the last three years knowing that we would always remain?


If leave won, then there are obviously still too many racists and ignorant old people who didn't know what they were voting for. The same cry baby tactics will be rolled out again and again until the anti democracy, self loathing remainers win, which will be horrific for those who don't want to be part of a federal Europe paying federal tax's as well as paying income tax. Remaining is turkey's voting for Christmas except it won't be our heads on the blocks it will be the grubby hands of the EU in our wallets.
Posted by: grimsby pete, March 2, 2019, 5:27pm; Reply: 213
Quoted from KingstonMariner
So now EU immigration is down, and non-EU immigration is up, I wonder if those Brexiteers who were motivated by racist tendancies (some not all mind) are feeling happier now that their aged mother is going to be looked after by a woman from west Africa rather than a Slav.


I just want somebody to wash my car, :B
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, March 5, 2019, 12:26pm; Reply: 214
Quoted from Marinerz93


If leave won, then there are obviously still too many racists and ignorant old people who didn't know what they were voting for. The same cry baby tactics will be rolled out again and again until the anti democracy, self loathing remainers win, which will be horrific for those who don't want to be part of a federal Europe paying federal tax's as well as paying income tax. Remaining is turkey's voting for Christmas except it won't be our heads on the blocks it will be the grubby hands of the EU in our wallets.


Not just old people. You've demonstrated in this thread that you don't know either.

Posted by: FishOutOfWater, March 5, 2019, 1:19pm; Reply: 215
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby


Not just old people. You've demonstrated in this thread that you don't know either.



To be fair to Marinerz93 I think he's maybe said "old people" with tongue firmly in cheek

The media do put forward this generalisation that it was old folk who wanted out and the young who wanted to remain when of course it was a lot more complex than that

Maybe there was something in it with the samples that the opinion polls showed but if our votes were anonymous how could anyone know the age of those in the polling booths?  ::)
Posted by: Limerick Mariner, March 5, 2019, 1:47pm; Reply: 216
Quoted from FishOutOfWater


To be fair to Marinerz93 I think he's maybe said "old people" with tongue firmly in cheek

The media do put forward this generalisation that it was old folk who wanted out and the young who wanted to remain when of course it was a lot more complex than that

Maybe there was something in it with the samples that the opinion polls showed but if our votes were anonymous how could anyone know the age of those in the polling booths?  ::)


Polls were done on how people had voted. Of course people can lie, but as a generality, the polls showed pensioners / those who had paid off mortgage voted leave, the young and those working with mortgages voted remain, the young voted generally remain except generally those on benefits and in rented voted leave.

If the young turned out as strongly as pensioners Remain would win.

The Tory bribes to pass May's deal are too little too late. Scrap HS2, invest in Crossrail North from Hull to Liverpool, investment in electrified light rail in the North and Midlands to link to the fast rail hubs at Donny / Newark / Peterborough, put fast Wifi clouds over all major urban areas and scrap Brexit because what we pay to the EU is feck all compared to the overall economic benefits. Time for our youth to take back control from the Tory shires old-fart elite that want a hard brexit.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, March 6, 2019, 12:55pm; Reply: 217
Quoted from Limerick Mariner


Polls were done on how people had voted. Of course people can lie, but as a generality, the polls showed pensioners / those who had paid off mortgage voted leave, the young and those working with mortgages voted remain, the young voted generally remain except generally those on benefits and in rented voted leave.

If the young turned out as strongly as pensioners Remain would win.

The Tory bribes to pass May's deal are too little too late. Scrap HS2, invest in Crossrail North from Hull to Liverpool, investment in electrified light rail in the North and Midlands to link to the fast rail hubs at Donny / Newark / Peterborough, put fast Wifi clouds over all major urban areas and scrap Brexit because what we pay to the EU is feck all compared to the overall economic benefits. Time for our youth to take back control from the Tory shires old-fart elite that want a hard brexit.


Agree with a lot of what you say LM but everyone knows that the polls are inaccurate... if the exit polls had been correct in June 2016, then the Remain campaign would have been a success and we'd have decided to stay in Europe

The whole thing has been a disaster, with Cameron and then May making a pig's ear of everything... sad to say but those same Tories will still be in charge for the next 3 years at least, no matter what ( if anything ) happens this month   :-/
Posted by: Marinerz93, March 6, 2019, 5:01pm; Reply: 218
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby


Not just old people. You've demonstrated in this thread that you don't know either.





Woooooosh, I nearly had a flash back to 2016



Quoted from FishOutOfWater


To be fair to Marinerz93 I think he's maybe said "old people" with tongue firmly in cheek

The media do put forward this generalisation that it was old folk who wanted out and the young who wanted to remain when of course it was a lot more complex than that


Maybe there was something in it with the samples that the opinion polls showed but if our votes were anonymous how could anyone know the age of those in the polling booths?  ::)


Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, March 10, 2019, 9:43am; Reply: 219
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-voters-are-less-bright-than-remainers-7nk8s3272
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, March 12, 2019, 7:54am; Reply: 220
Hey Marinerz93, since you seemed to think the previous facts I produced where out of date (when they weren't), here is another factual confirmation that you have been talking bolloxs

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/?fbclid=IwAR2F8Mh2Kade8XicOiG-NdsxgisWDbgPN1n_PSW8dXCM9X89oCoJQo3pdkQ

Of particular note, it states:
UK law also states that no such common EU defence powers can be handed from the UK to the EU without the approval of parliament and a referendum on the decision.
Posted by: grimsby pete, March 12, 2019, 11:14am; Reply: 221
We will never leave imo
Posted by: AdamHaddock, March 12, 2019, 12:25pm; Reply: 222
So, likely result tonight? I think she needs the whole of the ERG and DUP to flip to reverse the result last time

Roll on the second referendum...
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, March 12, 2019, 12:56pm; Reply: 223
After last night's Strasbourg shenanigans and this morning's ruling by the attorney general, as they say in that part of Europe "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"

So what next.... No deal or no Brexit?

My money is on the latter....who knows what mayhem is in store with either course?
Posted by: grimsby pete, March 12, 2019, 3:12pm; Reply: 224
Quoted from FishOutOfWater
After last night's Strasbourg shenanigans and this morning's ruling by the attorney general, as they say in that part of Europe "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"

So what next.... No deal or no Brexit?

My money is on the latter....who knows what mayhem is in store with either course?


What ever happens stay or leave we will get over it,

The country will unite once more like after a war. :P

Well it feels like a war don't you think ?
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, March 12, 2019, 6:18pm; Reply: 225
Quoted from grimsby pete


What ever happens stay or leave we will get over it,

The country will unite once more like after a war. :P

Well it feels like a war don't you think ?


A war of attrition I think is the phrase they use Pete..... thankfully there's a generation or two who have never experienced a war as such like our forefathers did ( apart from the Falkland & Gulf conflicts of course where there was British involvement and loss of life incurred  :B  )

Posted by: DocDock, March 13, 2019, 10:57am; Reply: 226
So, once again her rubbish deal was defeated. No surprises there, her deal is dead in the water. I just hope the same happens again for the no deal vote tonight, which leaves the extension option on the table.

I’ve said it before but the only democratic option left i can see is putting it back to the people by means of another vote. Other than the loons from ERG and some other MPs nobody wants a catastrophic no deal so that leaves two options, a revised Brexit deal and remain. I know which way i would vote.

Corbyn really has missed an open goal though by not ramping up talk of a second referendum last night.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, March 13, 2019, 1:39pm; Reply: 227
Quoted from DocDock
So, once again her rubbish deal was defeated. No surprises there, her deal is dead in the water. I just hope the same happens again for the no deal vote tonight, which leaves the extension option on the table.

I’ve said it before but the only democratic option left i can see is putting it back to the people by means of another vote. Other than the loons from ERG and some other MPs nobody wants a catastrophic no deal so that leaves two options, a revised Brexit deal and remain. I know which way i would vote.

Corbyn really has missed an open goal though by not ramping up talk of a second referendum last night.


I thought it has already been cleared up what will happen now, given what TM has said in the past, you know...."No deal is better than a bad deal"

Surely you have to take her at her word, don't you?  ;)

Posted by: grimsby pete, March 13, 2019, 2:27pm; Reply: 228
No the MP's will have a third chance to vote on her deal Tim,

You know the old saying, if you first do not succeed  ;D

What  the rest of the world  thinks of us does not bear thinking about.
Posted by: Rodley Mariner, March 13, 2019, 8:19pm; Reply: 229
I heard a Brexiteer on the radio this morning saying we should exit with no deal and in the event of food shortages we could all grow potatoes and catch rabbits. They didn't put that on any flipping buses did they?!
Posted by: Marinerz93, March 13, 2019, 8:24pm; Reply: 230
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
Hey Marinerz93, since you seemed to think the previous facts I produced where out of date (when they weren't), here is another factual confirmation that you have been talking bolloxs

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/?fbclid=IwAR2F8Mh2Kade8XicOiG-NdsxgisWDbgPN1n_PSW8dXCM9X89oCoJQo3pdkQ

Of particular note, it states:
UK law also states that no such common EU defence powers can be handed from the UK to the EU without the approval of parliament and a referendum on the decision.


No European Army,



Tell me what you believe Federalism is because the EU is becoming more and more federal.



Using your listed site take a gander at "Is the UK trading at its biggest loss for decades?"



I can throw insults too you EU flag waving idiot sandwich



There are pro's and cons to being in the EU no shadow of doubt, one of the life lessons I learned from a great mentor was don't just judge people on how they treat you, look at how they treat others. Tell me how this life lesson weights up with the way the EU threatens the likes of Poland, Hungry, Czech Republic over the immigration crisis, the EU shafted Greece, no lube required it went in dry. The same fate would have happened to Ireland if the UK hadn't bailed them out. Still there must be a veto or card somewhere we can flash at those un elected bureaucrats to take notice of, won't they.



The EU isn't corrupt and is financially sound, no money is wasted at all ever, moving offices from one country to the other that costs millions doesn't happen anymore, does it.

[

Posted by: GrimRob, March 13, 2019, 8:42pm; Reply: 231
Quoted from Rodley Mariner
I heard a Brexiteer on the radio this morning saying we should exit with no deal and in the event of food shortages we could all grow potatoes and catch rabbits. They didn't put that on any flipping buses did they?!


Let them eat cake, in other words. Vive la republique
Posted by: ska face, March 13, 2019, 10:01pm; Reply: 232
I’d join an EU Army tomorrow if they handed me a gun & told me to shoot brexiteers  ;D
Posted by: KingstonMariner, March 14, 2019, 12:11am; Reply: 233
I see Mr 'I'm hiding my assets in Ireland for when it goes mammaries up' Rees-Mogg has come out with a pearler tonight.

“This vote is very interesting, and the Government may or may not pay attention to it, but it is not binding, it is not law,” he said.

Much like the referendum then Mr Mogg.  He has a convenient memory loss on the constitution of This Great Country when it suits.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, March 14, 2019, 12:16am; Reply: 234
Quoted from grimsby pete


What ever happens stay or leave we will get over it,

The country will unite once more like after a war. :P

Well it feels like a war don't you think ?


Usually Pete, it's wars that unite the country. We tend to fall out when peace comes. I personally think it'll be a long time before we unite again.

So the best hope then is for the Argies to have a go again....oh wait we hven't got any planes for our aircraft carrier...you'll just have to hang on for a few more years Diego. You know, mañana, ho ho, mañana. [Sorry I came over all Boris Johnson then].
Posted by: KingstonMariner, March 14, 2019, 12:26am; Reply: 235
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby


I found the bit about Brexiteers more likely to believe 'authoritarian figures' funny, especially as they have more than their fair share of conspiracy theorists who pride themselves on being 'independent thinkers'.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, March 14, 2019, 12:27am; Reply: 236
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
Hey Marinerz93, since you seemed to think the previous facts I produced where out of date (when they weren't), here is another factual confirmation that you have been talking bolloxs

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/?fbclid=IwAR2F8Mh2Kade8XicOiG-NdsxgisWDbgPN1n_PSW8dXCM9X89oCoJQo3pdkQ

Of particular note, it states:
UK law also states that no such common EU defence powers can be handed from the UK to the EU without the approval of parliament and a referendum on the decision.


This deserves a bump. Good read that.
Posted by: Grim74, March 14, 2019, 7:09am; Reply: 237
Quoted from ska face
I’d join an EU Army tomorrow if they handed me a gun & told me to shoot brexiteers  ;D


I’l be in Parliament square on the 29th expecting to celebrate our departure from this dictatorship, when it’s confirmed we have been betrayed and all the quisling treacherous remoaner’s start to celebrate, It wouldn’t surprise me if it kicks off and I will gladly be slapping the first traitor that I come into contact with and at this point I will imagine it’s you.😆
Posted by: Maringer, March 14, 2019, 9:48am; Reply: 238
You're a funny guy, Grim.

Can't believe it's taken me this long to realise you've just been trolling us all along.

Nobody could seriously write "quisling treacherous remoaner's" (sic) with a straight face.
Posted by: AdamHaddock, March 14, 2019, 10:30am; Reply: 239
Looks like she's bringing it back for another vote  :-/

How about WE have another vote instead?
Posted by: KingstonMariner, March 14, 2019, 12:19pm; Reply: 240
Quoted from AdamHaddock
Looks like she's bringing it back for another vote  :-/

How about WE have another vote instead?


She reminds me of my ex-wife. Both are hard working, determined, have attention to detail, genuinely want to serve the common good. All good qualities. Except for the vital ingredient. She does not listen.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, March 14, 2019, 1:08pm; Reply: 241
http://blackadderquotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/general-melchett-blackadder-quotes.jpg
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, March 14, 2019, 1:24pm; Reply: 242
Quoted from KingstonMariner


She reminds me of my ex-wife. Both are hard working, determined, have attention to detail, genuinely want to serve the common good. All good qualities. Except for the vital ingredient. She does not listen.


But was she as good at dancing though?  ;)
Posted by: Azimuth, March 14, 2019, 1:25pm; Reply: 243
Quoted from ska face
I’d join an EU Army tomorrow if they handed me a gun & told me to shoot brexiteers  ;D


Then you Sir are clearly a moron who has no understanding of democracy or what this country has always stood for.
Shame on you!
Posted by: KingstonMariner, March 14, 2019, 4:29pm; Reply: 244
Quoted from Azimuth


Then you Sir are clearly a moron who has no understanding of democracy or what this country has always stood for.
Shame on you!


Have you had a sense of humour bypass? He was clearly joking.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, March 14, 2019, 4:30pm; Reply: 245
Quoted from FishOutOfWater


But was she as good at dancing though?  ;)


No! Maybe it's something about people who can't dance not being able to consult others.  :)
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, March 14, 2019, 6:06pm; Reply: 246
Quoted from KingstonMariner


No! Maybe it's something about people who can't dance not being able to consult others.  :)


And side-stepping what matters!  ;)

Posted by: Azimuth, March 14, 2019, 6:33pm; Reply: 247
Quoted from KingstonMariner


Have you had a sense of humour bypass? He was clearly joking.


Oh silly me lol hahahah for not realising its a joke to talk about shooting people who dont agree with your political opinion.
There have been millions Murdered throughout history for having a differing opinions and it is NOT something to joke about or take lightly.
Posted by: Manchester Mariner, March 14, 2019, 6:38pm; Reply: 248
Only Patriots and Traitors.
Posted by: ska face, March 14, 2019, 6:47pm; Reply: 249
Quoted from Azimuth


Then you Sir are clearly a moron who has no understanding of democracy or what this country has always stood for.
Shame on you!


I’d shoot the Queen for free.
Posted by: Marinerz93, March 14, 2019, 7:27pm; Reply: 250
Quoted from ska face
I’d join an EU Army tomorrow if they handed me a gun & told me to shoot brexiteers  ;D


Typical remoaner more likely to shoot yourself in the face which will go some way to help you remoaners with that EU Bukkake fetish you all have, ooooooh Jean Claude give us more federalism, oooooooh verhofstadt I'll join your rainbow EU Army and we can take it in turns at shooting each other in face, remoaners are heard to say, all day long.

Posted by: ska face, March 15, 2019, 6:41am; Reply: 251
Freud would have a field day with you.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, March 15, 2019, 10:09am; Reply: 252
Quoted from ska face
Freud would have a field day with you.


It’s quite revealing what he spends time thinking about. Clearly no real people have said such things so .......
Posted by: Town Monkey, March 15, 2019, 12:16pm; Reply: 253
Quoted from KingstonMariner


It’s quite revealing what he spends time thinking about. Clearly no real people have said such things so .......


I beg to differ, I'm a remoaner and that is all I say, in between mouthfuls of EU member of course.   :P
Posted by: KingstonMariner, March 15, 2019, 11:05pm; Reply: 254
Quoted from Town Monkey


I beg to differ, I'm a remoaner and that is all I say, in between mouthfuls of EU member of course.   :P


Well Brexit will give you chance to try Chinese and American mouthfuls so you'll be able to give us a fully rounded view.  ;D
Posted by: ska face, March 15, 2019, 11:12pm; Reply: 255
Very quiet on here from the usual suspects now 50 innocent men, women & children were assassinated in the name of their tin-foil-hat conspiracies.

Says it all...
Posted by: KingstonMariner, March 15, 2019, 11:45pm; Reply: 256
Are you trying to wind them up again? You know there'll be messages saying 'Typical remoaner. How dare you link Brexit with foul terrorists?!'
Posted by: Marinerz93, March 16, 2019, 12:20am; Reply: 257
Quoted from ska face
Freud would have a field day with you.


Posted by: Grim74, March 16, 2019, 1:05am; Reply: 258
Quoted from ska face
Very quiet on here from the usual suspects now 50 innocent men, women & children were assassinated in the name of their tin-foil-hat conspiracies.

Says it all...


Bodies not even cold and you’re using this atrocity to demonise people who dare to have a different opinion to yourself, have you no shame? Not even respect for the dead?

But it’s no surprise really as you and the rest of the cultural Marxists on here are still rather “quiet” regarding the terrorist attack on Christians earler his week https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.premiumtimesng.com/news/163588-gunmen-attack-kaduna-villages-kill-38.html%3famp_markup=1
Posted by: KingstonMariner, March 16, 2019, 5:12pm; Reply: 259
Quoted from Grim74


Bodies not even cold and you’re using this atrocity to demonise people who dare to have a different opinion to yourself, have you no shame? Not even respect for the dead?

But it’s no surprise really as you and the rest of the cultural Marxists on here are still rather “quiet” regarding the terrorist attack on Christians earler his week https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.premiumtimesng.com/news/163588-gunmen-attack-kaduna-villages-kill-38.html%3famp_markup=1



Of course that's terrible too, but it's hardly been reported here has it. Terrorist atrocity in Nigeria is I'm afraid 'Dog bites man' news, terrorist atrocity in NZ is 'Man bites dog'. And that incident in Nigeria was nearly two weeks ago now so its bound to be trumped in the news by Friday's atrocity in Christchurch.

The fact YOU never said anything about the Nigeria incident, despite your inference that you care but us lefties don't, before now either speaks volumes. Did the Alt.Recht propaganda team only just issue it to you? You're even more of a hypocrite than the so-called 'cultural Marxists'.

PS it doesn't mention Christians in that story. Not that it matters what faith they were.
Posted by: Grim74, March 16, 2019, 10:28pm; Reply: 260
Quoted Text
Of course that's terrible too, but it's hardly been reported here has it. Terrorist atrocity in Nigeria is I'm afraid 'Dog bites man' news, terrorist atrocity in NZ is 'Man bites dog'. And that incident in Nigeria was nearly two weeks ago now so its bound to be trumped in the news by Friday's atrocity in Christchurch.


Why hasn’t it been reported? Are Muslims now more newsworthy religious groups?
Dog bites man news!.... what a disgusting thing to say just sums you up really.
The incident I was referring to was Monday morning! You may be referring to the terrorist attacks on March the 4th when radical Muslims murdered 32 Christians and torched their church or was it another attack maybe, I don’t know it’s hard to keep up 120 people killed by the Muslim terrorists since February and 10 more last night but who’s bothered eh.. certainly not you.

Quoted Text
The fact YOU never said anything about the Nigeria incident, despite your inference that you care but us lefties don't, before now either speaks volumes. Did the Alt.Recht propaganda team only just issue it to you? You're even more of a hypocrite than the so-called 'cultural Marxists'.


Hang on a minute I was responding to a disgraceful slur from your Marxist mate, so you’re ok with what he posted? The man is an absolute disgrace for that post and it’s no surprise that he’s now hid away.

Quoted Text
PS it doesn't mention Christians in that story. Not that it matters what faith they were.


The Christians have been getting slaughtered for years now in that region just like the white South African farmers it’s only a matter of time before they are wiped out completely.

http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/cwn/2019/march/radical-muslims-murder-32-nigerian-christians-torch-church-in-brutal-attack

Driving home tonight listening to the news and the New Zealand terror attack is still the only news in town, no mention at all of the the latest slayings in Nigeria last night by the way! Come to think of it there’s been no mention from the MSM that I can recall of any of the 115 Islamic attacks in 20 countries in which 827 people were killed and 818 injured in the last 30 days!!! certainly not on the Christchurch scale.....anyone would think that there was an MSM agenda!
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, March 17, 2019, 8:46pm; Reply: 261
I don't think you can blame what gets covered by our news as a MSM agenda, that would be an ultra paranoid point of view imho. How many times for example has our news been dominated by some shite that Trump has said on Twitter whilst bombs we sold to the Saudis are being used to kill thousands in Yemen and very little gets covered on TV? This is just one of a thousand examples. Our foreign affairs news in general focuses on the UK, US and other english speaking countries, so its no major surprise that Nigeria wasn't given much coverage and New Zealand has been.

Your dislike/hatred of Muslims, assumed following your previous support of Tommy Robinson on here, isn't going to solve a single thing is it?
Posted by: Grim74, March 17, 2019, 9:58pm; Reply: 262
Quoted Text
I don't think you can blame what gets covered by our news as a MSM agenda, that would be an ultra paranoid point of view imho. How many times for example has our news been dominated by some shite that Trump has said on Twitter whilst bombs we sold to the Saudis are being used to kill thousands in Yemen and very little gets covered on TV? This is just one of a thousand examples. Our foreign affairs news in general focuses on the UK, US and other english speaking countries, so its no major surprise that Nigeria wasn't given much coverage and New Zealand has been.



Trump calls Apple CEO Tim Cook “Tim Apple” and the likes of Sky and the BBC headline it!
At the same time there is a massive movement of French demonstrators that are attacked and even killed by their so called leader Macron and not a snippet on the fake news channels.
Now we all know it’s indefinite open season to attack Trump as far as the globalist media are concerned because the man rightly rejects globalisation so that’s logical.

So why doesn’t our propaganda news want us to see what’s happening to the poor protesters in Paris?? Because they are protesting against globalisation! and you say the have no agenda .... Fxck off!

Quoted Text
Your dislike/hatred of Muslims, assumed following your previous support of Tommy Robinson on here, isn't going to solve a single thing is it?


This just goes to show what a total ignorant fool you are, prove to me I’m not wrong by showing me something ive posted that says I dislike/hate muslims???
Go on have a trawl through any posts try not to get muslims and Islam confused won’t you.... what an absolute helmet.
Posted by: ska face, March 18, 2019, 7:03am; Reply: 263
Quoted from Grim74
Hang on a minute I was responding to a disgraceful slur from your Marxist mate, so you’re ok with what he posted? The man is an absolute disgrace for that post and it’s no surprise that he’s now hid away.
!


Marxist? How very dare you. I’m an anarcho-syndicalist.
Posted by: grimsby pete, March 18, 2019, 10:23am; Reply: 264
Anyway back to Brexit,

We are not leaving because May says we are,

She always goes back on her word.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, March 18, 2019, 1:51pm; Reply: 265
Quoted from grimsby pete
Anyway back to Brexit,

We are not leaving because May says we are,

She always goes back on her word.


Do you mean to say then Pete that when she said no deal is better than a bad deal she was misleading us?  Well I never....  ;)
Posted by: grimsby pete, March 18, 2019, 3:46pm; Reply: 266
Quoted from FishOutOfWater


Do you mean to say then Pete that when she said no deal is better than a bad deal she was misleading us?  Well I never....  ;)


Lets look at what she has gone back on Tim  ;D

No snap election.,

N.Ireland will not be treated any different to the rest of UK ...  DUP  could have something t to say about that ( oh they have )

We are leaving on March 29th ( about 100+ times she has said that.)

We are taking control of our borders and laws  ( oh no we are not )

Plus many other things the only thing she has not gone back on is Grimsby Town will have a new stadium  ;D




Posted by: Maringer, March 18, 2019, 5:22pm; Reply: 267
I'm glad that Bercow has put a stop to this ridiculous situation of delaying and delaying then bunging exactly the same deal forward for a vote. The shameless time wasting by May and Co over the past months has been nothing but an attempt to run down the clock to force the deal through. I'd imagine the flak Bercow will take from the right-wing media will be something to behold.

Of course, it now means that we'll be leaving unless other legislation is put forward and passed (or they close the current session of parliament and start a new one!). I wonder which motions will now be put forward and accepted for a vote in the time remaining?

Ultimately, it's still shambolic, but at least we're moving forward in some regard and not just waiting for May to continue running down the clock.
Posted by: grimsby pete, March 18, 2019, 6:25pm; Reply: 268
We started off with leavers and remainers,

Now we have a third number who do not give a fook because they are fed up with the whole thing.

May will go down in History as the PM who tried and tried again and failed.
Posted by: AdamHaddock, March 18, 2019, 6:38pm; Reply: 269
So.....next Friday we're due to leave  ??)

No plan. Even if we wanted an extension there is still legislation that needs to be rushed through. Fingers crossed for a referendum, especially now the shysters and fantasists have been found out
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, March 18, 2019, 8:40pm; Reply: 270
Quoted from Grim74

This just goes to show what a total ignorant fool you are, prove to me I’m not wrong by showing me something ive posted that says I dislike/hate muslims???
Go on have a trawl through any posts try not to get muslims and Islam confused won’t you.... what an absolute helmet.


https://www.google.com/search?q=grim74+musilim+the+fishy+site:forum.thefishy.co.uk&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiNlYWSw4zhAhUBVBUIHUFfDMwQrQIoBDAAegQIChAL&biw=1536&bih=722

what a lovely chap you are :)

Posted by: Grim74, March 18, 2019, 9:35pm; Reply: 271
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby


Nothing there at all showing that I hate muslims and you know it 😃 you’re still an very ignorant fool!
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, March 19, 2019, 7:54am; Reply: 272
I'll let others read and judge. I'm pretty sure any sane and fair minded individual would come to the same conclusion as me. Indeed in that list of threads others have also accused you of the same thing.

For the record then, what are your official feelings towards Muslims?
Posted by: Biccys, March 19, 2019, 8:16am; Reply: 273
At least try and keep it civilised on this thread or for the sake of my own sanity I'll lock it. If you can't discuss this albeit emotive subject without insulting one another, go somewhere else
Posted by: Grim74, March 19, 2019, 11:12am; Reply: 274
Quoted Text
]I'll let others read and judge. I'm pretty sure any sane and fair minded individual would come to the same conclusion as me. Indeed in that list of threads others have also accused you of the same thing.


God you’re hilarious trying to save face 😂 quote me where I‘m hating or even insinuating hatred for Muslims?? Just apologise and move on...the Topic is about Brexit after all!!

Posted by: FishOutOfWater, March 19, 2019, 1:55pm; Reply: 275
Quoted from Grim74


God you’re hilarious trying to save face 😂 quote me where I‘m hating or even insinuating hatred for Muslims?? Just apologise and move on...the Topic is about Brexit after all!!



10 days and counting until Brexit.... or not as the case may be?

Just checked and it's 999 days since the referendum was held and the majority wanted to leave the EU

Shall we all have a vote as to whether or not it will happen?   ;)
Posted by: Grim74, March 19, 2019, 3:41pm; Reply: 276
Quoted from FishOutOfWater


10 days and counting until Brexit.... or not as the case may be?

Just checked and it's 999 days since the referendum was held and the majority wanted to leave the EU

Shall we all have a vote as to whether or not it will happen?   ;)


My heart hopes yes it’s the legal position to leave on the 29th so I’m hoping it’s  going to happen.
But my head says no! the remainers in Parliament and that include May have tried every trick in the book to stop us from leaving and they’re not about to stop now.
Posted by: grimsby pete, March 19, 2019, 5:01pm; Reply: 277
Quoted from Grim74


My heart hopes yes it’s the legal position to leave on the 29th so I’m hoping it’s  going to happen.
But my head says no! the remainers in Parliament and that include May have tried every trick in the book to stop us from leaving and they’re not about to stop now.


I think May is playing a very crafty game to make sure an agreement is not reached so we stay in,
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, March 19, 2019, 5:59pm; Reply: 278
Quoted from grimsby pete


I think May is playing a very crafty game to make sure an agreement is not reached so we stay in,


I think she's been doing that all along Pete... why else would she have cancelled that "meaningful vote" back in December other than to waste time in parliament

It is what it is but it gets my back up... I didn't vote to leave the EU but from day one I fully accepted the result and to me, the whole process since the majority voted out has been a complete shambles
Posted by: jock dock tower, March 19, 2019, 8:10pm; Reply: 279
It takes a very special kind of idiot to make the complete and utter balls up of not just trying to govern at Westminster, but to also split your party asunder by your total incompetence. Take a bow Theresa May.

To only be able to govern by giving the biggest bunch of bigots Westminster has ever seen the odd £billion or two, is bad enough, but to then be beholden to them for the whole future of our country really does display a complete and utter fuckwittery hitherto unknown in British politics. Let's not forget the DUP are the party who still say it's not a women's right to choose thereby making abortion illegal in N. Ireland. They believe homosexuality to be a sin, a god number of them are creationists, and they have para military links - and through May's inability to work politically with anybody else bar bigots they are, in effect, the de facto government as nothing gets by without their endorsement.

Through her inability to listen to others she has created a situation where the UK are, quite rightly, the laughing stock of Europe - and speaking to Aussie friends - the world as well. The Houses of Parliament used to be looked on as the mother of democracy, and was what many countries looked to base their own democracies on. Now it's a byword for abject failure and derision. How the f*ck did we ever get to this?
Posted by: grimsby pete, March 19, 2019, 10:35pm; Reply: 280
One thing we can all agree on whether we are cons or lab leaver or remainer is  May has balls everything up regarding Brexit and being in charge of her own party,

She hopes she will get out of this mess by forcing another peoples vote,

Then she will crawl back into the same place that Cameron disapeared into,

Effing useless the lot of them and that goes for all of them in parliment whatever party they represent.
Posted by: AdamHaddock, March 20, 2019, 11:10am; Reply: 281
The last thing she wants is another referendum. She's gambled all her capitol within in the tory party on that deal and is hell bent on getting it through, however many commons votes it takes.

That deal was the best the EU could offer her within her self imposed red lines of wanting tariff free access to the EU markets without the obligations (free movement, not being able to do our own trade deals, ECJ etc), while also representing Ireland's interests. Had she not spent the last two and a half years dancing to the tune of a minority of MPs and the right wing press barons, she would have got some version of soft Brexit through by now.

It's just a shame Corbyn, even this late in the day, won't unambiguously follow through with the conference motion and demand a second referendum. Two stubborn ideologues who will not compromise and build consensus just when we need it.
Posted by: Rodley Mariner, March 20, 2019, 11:38am; Reply: 282
She is utterly desperate to get her deal through and leave at the end of the month. Why couldn't she show a modicum of flexibility over her red lines and bring together Labour MP's and her own moderates rather than cow-towing to the nutters of the DUP and the ERG. What a flipping combination that is to be setting the agenda for the future of the whole country.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, March 20, 2019, 1:47pm; Reply: 283
Quoted from jock dock tower
It takes a very special kind of idiot to make the complete and utter balls up of not just trying to govern at Westminster, but to also split your party asunder by your total incompetence. Take a bow Theresa May.

To only be able to govern by giving the biggest bunch of bigots Westminster has ever seen the odd £billion or two, is bad enough, but to then be beholden to them for the whole future of our country really does display a complete and utter fuckwittery hitherto unknown in British politics. Let's not forget the DUP are the party who still say it's not a women's right to choose thereby making abortion illegal in N. Ireland. They believe homosexuality to be a sin, a god number of them are creationists, and they have para military links - and through May's inability to work politically with anybody else bar bigots they are, in effect, the de facto government as nothing gets by without their endorsement.

Through her inability to listen to others she has created a situation where the UK are, quite rightly, the laughing stock of Europe - and speaking to Aussie friends - the world as well. The Houses of Parliament used to be looked on as the mother of democracy, and was what many countries looked to base their own democracies on. Now it's a byword for abject failure and derision. How the f*ck did we ever get to this?



Did it start when "Sir Nick Clegg" came to the rescue of Cameron in 2010..... that allowed "Dave" to get his referendum plan together before he f*cked up and f*cked off to leave us with all this dismay :-/
Posted by: Manchester Mariner, March 20, 2019, 4:13pm; Reply: 284
Rumours abounding that she might be doing 'a Cameron' and announcing her plans to resign outside number 10 tonight.

Clusterfuck.

Posted by: Marinerz93, March 20, 2019, 7:08pm; Reply: 285
Let's hope it makes it to No1

Posted by: DocDock, March 20, 2019, 9:24pm; Reply: 286


That statement tonight.

Seriously, the women has lost it. Blaming everyone but herself for the situation we, as a country find ourselves in. I genuinely hope there isn’t another vote on her deal, the maniac doesn’t deserve it.

And just for balance, Corbyn ain’t much better, either.
Posted by: GrimRob, March 20, 2019, 9:36pm; Reply: 287
Her deal is rubbish. If we end up with it it will be worst of all possible outcomes.
Posted by: Maringer, March 20, 2019, 10:01pm; Reply: 288
It's a rubbish deal. Better than no deal though, especially with this bunch of clowns in charge to run the country right into the ground in the aftermath.

But, if you take into account the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, it's almost the only deal which could be made if you aren't remaining in the customs union. If the Tories weren't reliant on the DUP to get anything done, you could envisage them bunging a border in the Irish Sea (and the Northern Irish in general would be happy with this - the Scots less so, obviously). As it stands the DUP are blocking everything with the ERGers using their approach as an excuse to try and get No Deal for their own devices.

May has completely lost the plot, of course.
Posted by: grimsby pete, March 20, 2019, 11:15pm; Reply: 289
I can not see her being PM for much longer the woman is deluded.
Posted by: cmackenzie4, March 21, 2019, 6:29am; Reply: 290
Me neither Pete
Posted by: Maringer, March 21, 2019, 9:42am; Reply: 291
The sensible thing to have done following the referendum would have been consultations to decide what sort of exit we would be looking for. Not even most of the Brexiteers said anything about the customs union during the referendum campaign, for instance.

If parliament had spent some time working out exactly what they were going to try and negotiate before actually invoking Article 50, then there might have been a 'better' outcome. At least it wouldn't have been so chaotic with the clock running down in this manner.

Edit: I should add that it's not just the fault of the Tories in this regard as Labour were calling for Article 50 to be invoked straight away as well.

They all got it wrong.
Posted by: chaos33, March 21, 2019, 10:47pm; Reply: 292
I read this brexit analogy today.....

We've all been on a night out with a mate who says,"it's sh*t here, let's go somewhere else..".
Then, when you leave, you realise that he has no idea where to go, and the place you just left won't let you back in. The UK is standing in a kebab shop at 3am, arguing about who's fault it is.
Posted by: Marinerz93, March 21, 2019, 11:00pm; Reply: 293
Quoted from chaos33
I read this brexit analogy today.....

We've all been on a night out with a mate who says,"it's sh*t here, let's go somewhere else..".
Then, when you leave, you realise that he has no idea where to go, and the place you just left won't let you back in. The UK is standing in a kebab shop at 3am, arguing about who's fault it is.


Sort of analogy you hear from someone who has never been anywhere, seen anything or done anything in their sad remoaner life.


Posted by: Marinerz93, March 21, 2019, 11:10pm; Reply: 294
Posted by: jock dock tower, March 22, 2019, 3:20pm; Reply: 295
Onehugemotherfuckingshamblesboughttoyoubytheunparalleledincompetenceof theresamay#meltdownuk
Posted by: LH, March 27, 2019, 8:15pm; Reply: 296
So it turns out Brexit wasn’t about sovereignty, taking control of laws and borders or being free from the tyranny of the EU and was in fact about certain Tory MPs personal gain. Who would have thought that would be the case?
Posted by: GrimRob, March 27, 2019, 10:06pm; Reply: 297
I am yet to see a proposal that is better than the arrangement we have now. That's the fundamental problem the house has, I suspect.
Posted by: Rodley Mariner, March 27, 2019, 10:21pm; Reply: 298
The house is more positive about a customs union or a public vote on the deal than they are on the deal itself.
Posted by: LH, March 28, 2019, 12:16am; Reply: 299
I don’t understand why MPs are so against a re-run of a referendum with facts attached. It’s win/win. If they’re so certain that the will of the people is to leave it’ll win at a canter even if it was May’s deal vs remain. If remain wins then they’ve misread the will of the people and are corrected. Either way they’ve absolved themselves of any blame and they can go on robbing a living from the taxpayer. Whatever democracy is in this country the last few months in the Commons absolutely has not been a democracy that anyone in this country voted for in 2017.
Posted by: Grim74, March 28, 2019, 9:52am; Reply: 300
Quoted from LH
I don’t understand why MPs are so against a re-run of a referendum with facts attached. It’s win/win. If they’re so certain that the will of the people is to leave it’ll win at a canter even if it was May’s deal vs remain. If remain wins then they’ve misread the will of the people and are corrected. Either way they’ve absolved themselves of any blame and they can go on robbing a living from the taxpayer. Whatever democracy is in this country the last few months in the Commons absolutely has not been a democracy that anyone in this country voted for in 2017.


We the british public were well informed this was an historic once in a lifetime vote (there would be no second referendum) that’s it the end of debate, if the vote had gone the other way you would be saying Jackshxt!! Agree with the last part of your post.
Posted by: Maringer, March 28, 2019, 10:15am; Reply: 301
It already was a second referendum. The first one was held back in 1975.

If you're so confident that the British public still wants to leave, what can be the harm in a vote to confirm they support whichever deal is eventually agreed?

As your man Rees-Mogg said in Parliament back in 2011, "“We could have two referendums. As it happens, it might make more sense to have the second referendum after the renegotiation is completed."

He's since rowed back on this, of course.

Of course, if the event of such a confirmatory vote, we'd have to make sure that the DUP didn't collude by accepting and spending illegal donations and, if they did, the Electoral Commission should prosecute this time around. Nobody seems to know why the didn't prosecute last time when the DUP treasurer has admitted he (and the donor) broke the law.

Some proper fact-checking by the media to point out blatant lies in the campaigning would be helpful as well.
Posted by: grimsby pete, March 28, 2019, 10:56am; Reply: 302
Quoted from Maringer
It already was a second referendum. The first one was held back in 1975.

If you're so confident that the British public still wants to leave, what can be the harm in a vote to confirm they support whichever deal is eventually agreed?

As your man Rees-Mogg said in Parliament back in 2011, "“We could have two referendums. As it happens, it might make more sense to have the second referendum after the renegotiation is completed."

He's since rowed back on this, of course.

Of course, if the event of such a confirmatory vote, we'd have to make sure that the DUP didn't collude by accepting and spending illegal donations and, if they did, the Electoral Commission should prosecute this time around. Nobody seems to know why the didn't prosecute last time when the DUP treasurer has admitted he (and the donor) broke the law.

Some proper fact-checking by the media to point out blatant lies in the campaigning would be helpful as well.


Most people who want a 2nd referendum think we will vote remain this time,

BUT

What happens if the leave vote wins 51 to 49 ?

We are no further down the road and wasted another few months,

The problem is with the MP's  they can nor decide on what they want they can all say what they don't want.

So maybe they should have one more vote that asks in or out.

If stay in wins let the MP's go back and tell their voters why they betrayed the 17.4 million.

It will not happen so we will still be talking about this next year,
Posted by: Ipswin, March 28, 2019, 11:42am; Reply: 303
Quoted from grimsby pete


Most people who want a 2nd referendum think we will vote remain this time,

BUT

What happens if the leave vote wins 51 to 49 ?

We are no further down the road and wasted another few months,

The problem is with the MP's  they can nor decide on what they want they can all say what they don't want.

So maybe they should have one more vote that asks in or out.

If stay in wins let the MP's go back and tell their voters why they betrayed the 17.4 million.

It will not happen so we will still be talking about this next year,



I think folk are so drunk off with Brexit (it has replaced PPI as the world's most hated word or phrase) that the majority in favour of leaving might be even greater so I don't see why so many are excrement scared of having a second vote.

At least if there was to be a second vote (after the 'deal' is finally agreed - if that ever happens) people might realise that they had no idea what they were voting for in the first vote, that the vast amounts promised to the NHS and the end of immigration were absolute lies and that the reality of leaving the EU will be much more serious.

Did no one who voted to leave (especially the elderly clearly taken in by the NHS and immigration lies) think about the future generations after they are dead and gone ?

Remainer - yes I am!
Posted by: Ipswin, March 28, 2019, 11:45am; Reply: 304
Quoted from Grim74


We the british public were well informed this was an historic once in a lifetime vote (there would be no second referendum) that’s it the end of debate, if the vote had gone the other way you would be saying Jackshxt!! Agree with the last part of your post.


But they weren't that's the whole point. People had no idea what they were voting for (if there was another vote tomorrow they still wouldn't!) that's precisely why there should be another vote on the final deal (whatever that is)

How the intercourse could they ask people and how the intercourse could people decide what they wanted when no one knew what it would entail?
Posted by: grimsby pete, March 28, 2019, 12:12pm; Reply: 305
Quoted from Ipswin


But they weren't that's the whole point. People had no idea what they were voting for (if there was another vote tomorrow they still wouldn't!) that's precisely why there should be another vote on the final deal (whatever that is)

How the intercourse could they ask people and how the intercourse could people decide what they wanted when no one knew what it would entail?


The only way I can see all this coming to an agreement because the MP'S will be here until the cows come home is to either have an election or another referendum .

This is not my choice but I can not see any other way,
Posted by: GrimRob, March 28, 2019, 12:49pm; Reply: 306
Quoted from grimsby pete


The only way I can see all this coming to an agreement because the MP'S will be here until the cows come home is to either have an election or another referendum .

This is not my choice but I can not see any other way,


How can they have another election though when there are so many parties within parties? A second referendum with choices of either remain or whatever deal is acceptable to MPs seems a no-brainer to me. Failing that revoke Article 50, have a general election and people can choose the government they want (within the limitations of FPTP).
Posted by: Grim74, March 28, 2019, 1:17pm; Reply: 307
Quoted from Ipswin


But they weren't that's the whole point. People had no idea what they were voting for (if there was another vote tomorrow they still wouldn't!) that's precisely why there should be another vote on the final deal (whatever that is)

How the intercourse could they ask people and how the intercourse could people decide what they wanted when no one knew what it would entail?


Couple of things firstly the £9M  pounds propaganda leaflet delivered to every home in the country spelled out exactly what was involved especially if we dared to vote leave.
Secondly we didn’t vote for a deal the mandate was to leave any deals could and would of taken care of themselves.

I take on board what you are saying but if you were at such a basic level of political understanding then I doubt there would be any change now and that goes for the leave and remain voters.

The only genuine option that respects the vote now is to just leave WTO I believe in my Country to pull through to be prosperous and free, I just cannot for the life of me understand why my fellow countrymen and women would want their once proud nation to be nothing more than a puppet state 😔
Posted by: Grim74, March 28, 2019, 1:21pm; Reply: 308
Quoted from Maringer
It already was a second referendum. The first one was held back in 1975.


Yes once  in a generation so you can have another one in about 45 years 😁
Posted by: Maringer, March 28, 2019, 4:56pm; Reply: 309
Quoted from Grim74

The only genuine option that respects the vote now is to just leave WTO I believe in my Country to pull through to be prosperous and free, I just cannot for the life of me understand why my fellow countrymen and women would want their once proud nation to be nothing more than a puppet state 😔


Nah - May's deal would lead to Brexit as well. If May wasn't so reliant on the DUP, it would have sailed through long ago. The backstop would only apply if a sensible agreement wasn't made and both sides want to have one so that's just a red herring. The ERGers are just attempting to use the DUP as an excuse to get the damaging hard Brexit they desire either for inane ideological reasons or self-serving interest. Lots of money to be made for those with it already. Let's not forget that the economic model they want to follow happily throws our agricultural sector under the bus. For instance, a hard Brexit would lead to a mass cull of lambs (reportedly up to 10 million) due to the WTO export tarriffs we'd have to apply. I'd imagine this would put many sheep farmers out of business in one fell swoop. Only people with absolutely no understanding of the problems (or an ulterior motive) want a hard Brexit. It's noticeable that many of the most avid supporters of a hard Brexit (fuckwits such as Fox) are the ones who claimed countries would be queueing up to make deals with us, and they haven't. Something which betrays a lack of understanding of how trade deals actually work which is a pity as these were the idiots trying to arrange them.

Funnily enough with the backstop in effect, Northern Ireland would actually be reaping some of the benefits of EU membership and the province voted heavily in favour of remain so the DUP are in effect trying to shaft their own for ideological reasons. Given their past support for sectarian paramilitaries, they're probably hoping for a return to the good old days of the troubles.

And no, we aren't a puppet state because we helped to make the decisions and draft the EU regulations in the first place. It's how the EU works.

My view would be that, with the failure of the government to produce a deal which can be agreed, parliament should have indicative votes comes up with a deal of whatever sort (apart from an idiotic 'No deal' or one based on Unicorns and rainbows which will never be agreed). This should then get put to a vote by the people who would then at least know what they are voting for. As I've said in the past, a multiple-choice transferrable vote referendum would be the best option, providing the weighting was fair.

If the public then still want us to leave, then so be it. It's not as if we haven't been warned.

Around 2 million voters who were too young to have a say back in 2016 have now reached voting age so you must surely agree that they be allowed to express their opinion because it must count more than the similar number who have died since then? They will be the ones living with the decision, after all. The opinions of the dead don't matter, because they don't have any.
Posted by: Ipswin, March 28, 2019, 6:24pm; Reply: 310
Quoted from Maringer




My view would be that, with the failure of the government to produce a deal which can be agreed, parliament should have indicative votes comes up with a deal of whatever sort (apart from an idiotic 'No deal' or one based on Unicorns and rainbows which will never be agreed). This should then get put to a vote by the people who would then at least know what they are voting for. As I've said in the past, a multiple-choice transferrable vote referendum would be the best option, providing the weighting was fair.

If the public then still want us to leave, then so be it. It's not as if we haven't been warned.

Around 2 million voters who were too young to have a say back in 2016 have now reached voting age so you must surely agree that they be allowed to express their opinion because it must count more than the similar number who have died since then? They will be the ones living with the decision, after all. The opinions of the dead don't matter, because they don't have any.


This

Posted by: Grim74, March 28, 2019, 11:39pm; Reply: 311
Quoted from Maringer


Nah - May's deal would lead to Brexit as well. If May wasn't so reliant on the DUP, it would have sailed through long ago. The backstop would only apply if a sensible agreement wasn't made and both sides want to have one so that's just a red herring. The ERGers are just attempting to use the DUP as an excuse to get the damaging hard Brexit they desire either for inane ideological reasons or self-serving interest. Lots of money to be made for those with it already. Let's not forget that the economic model they want to follow happily throws our agricultural sector under the bus. For instance, a hard Brexit would lead to a mass cull of lambs (reportedly up to 10 million) due to the WTO export tarriffs we'd have to apply. I'd imagine this would put many sheep farmers out of business in one fell swoop. Only people with absolutely no understanding of the problems (or an ulterior motive) want a hard Brexit. It's noticeable that many of the most avid supporters of a hard Brexit (fuckwits such as Fox) are the ones who claimed countries would be queueing up to make deals with us, and they haven't. Something which betrays a lack of understanding of how trade deals actually work which is a pity as these were the idiots trying to arrange them.


The Government has confirmed it will match all subsidies and cover any shortfall in revenue for at least the next two years! In that time do you think the French and Irish farmers would just sit there and allow the tariffs to cripple their UK exports? A third of all sheep meat imported? No me neither a deal will be had which is why we should have just left by now on short term on WTO terms and wait for our old masters to beg us for a deal.

Quoted Text
And no, we aren't a puppet state because we helped to make the decisions and draft the EU regulations in the first place. It's how the EU works.


Don’t make me laugh every time we opposed a new regulation or law they just ignored us we lost more decisions than any other member state the union is nothing more than a mafia. If you don’t believe we’re a puppet state now then how can you ignore what our EU masters have planned MORE EUROPE MORE EUROPE openly spouted from the likes of the drunk Junker and his cretins Macron and verhofstwat

Quoted Text
My view would be that, with the failure of the government to produce a deal which can be agreed, parliament should have indicative votes comes up with a deal of whatever sort (apart from an idiotic 'No deal' or one based on Unicorns and rainbows which will never be agreed). This should then get put to a vote by the people who would then at least know what they are voting for. As I've said in the past, a multiple-choice transferrable vote referendum would be the best option, providing the weighting was fair.


Bollox to that we have already voted and no deal is still the legal default and the majority of Brexiteers (the winners who count) have hardened if anything to a no deal. Not interested in what remainers want or their silly little march of middle class snobs they lost shut up dummy’s back in.


Quoted Text
Around 2 million voters who were too young to have a say back in 2016 have now reached voting age so you must surely agree that they be allowed to express their opinion because it must count more than the similar number who have died since then? They will be the ones living with the decision, after all. The opinions of the dead don't matter, because they don't have any.


I can’t believe you of all people have dragged this sorry argument up FFS
so if you were to lose the vote again would you wait then in another 2 years becry all now 18 year olds who missed out? You’re talking absolute bollox again.
Or have you done your maths and morbidly thought a lot of old people who voted would be dead now, so with the new breed of indoctrinated young ones we will definetly win this time eh?

Only thing is in the days of record employment many young remainers from 2016 under the trance of socialism have now grown up got a job and paying and their taxes, they don’t identify with Labour or the Lib Dem’s anymore they now understand true conservative values low tax, minimal state interference, freedom, traditionism, unionism, welfare state for those in need etc, and when I say conservative I mean real conservatism not the shower of shite that’s in office.
Posted by: Grim74, March 29, 2019, 7:39am; Reply: 312
MElaine Onn talking a lot of sense in the telegraph today, surprisingly a woman of principle and refreshing to see no matter which side of the divide. Well done Melanie.
Posted by: Ipswin, March 29, 2019, 9:08am; Reply: 313
Quoted from Grim74


The Government has confirmed it will match all subsidies and cover any shortfall in revenue for at least the next two years! In that time do you think the French and Irish farmers would just sit there and allow the tariffs to cripple their UK exports? A third of all sheep meat imported? No me neither a deal will be had which is why we should have just left by now on short term on WTO terms and wait for our old masters to beg us for a deal.



Don’t make me laugh every time we opposed a new regulation or law they just ignored us we lost more decisions than any other member state the union is nothing more than a mafia. If you don’t believe we’re a puppet state now then how can you ignore what our EU masters have planned MORE EUROPE MORE EUROPE openly spouted from the likes of the drunk Junker and his cretins Macron and verhofstwat



Bollox to that we have already voted and no deal is still the legal default and the majority of Brexiteers (the winners who count) have hardened if anything to a no deal. Not interested in what remainers want or their silly little march of middle class snobs they lost shut up dummy’s back in.




I can’t believe you of all people have dragged this sorry argument up FFS
so if you were to lose the vote again would you wait then in another 2 years becry all now 18 year olds who missed out? You’re talking absolute bollox again.
Or have you done your maths and morbidly thought a lot of old people who voted would be dead now, so with the new breed of indoctrinated young ones we will definetly win this time eh?

Only thing is in the days of record employment many young remainers from 2016 under the trance of socialism have now grown up got a job and paying and their taxes, they don’t identify with Labour or the Lib Dem’s anymore they now understand true conservative values low tax, minimal state interference, freedom, traditionism, unionism, welfare state for those in need etc, and when I say conservative I mean real conservatism not the shower of shite that’s in office.



The problem with referendums and elections is that idiots like you have the vote
Posted by: Grim74, March 29, 2019, 10:44am; Reply: 314
Quoted from Ipswin



The problem with referendums and elections is that idiots like you have the vote


Well that was intelligent😂

Rather than sounding like a fascist why not try and have the decency to debate.
Posted by: Ipswin, March 29, 2019, 11:26am; Reply: 315
Quoted from Grim74


Well that was intelligent😂

Rather than sounding like a fascist why not try and have the decency to debate.


What's to debate? I disagree with absolutely every point you have made. Also I would have thought that the performance of MPs from all parties has already shown how pointless debating is on this issue which is why the people should be asked a second time.

I fail to see why all the Brexit idiots are shitting themselves and the government keep bleating on about how it would be undemocratic to have a second vote. Firstly at least everyone would know what they were voting for and what the implications could be and secondly I fear the majority for leaving would be even greater as people are totally drunk off with the whole debacle

The best thing about a second vote would be that (hopefully) more would vote so that the majority (either way) would represent a greater percentage of the population and the result would therefore have more credibility than the first farce

Posted by: GrimRob, March 29, 2019, 11:35am; Reply: 316
Quoted from Ipswin


What's to debate? I disagree with absolutely every point you have made. Also I would have thought that the performance of MPs from all parties has already shown how pointless debating is on this issue which is why the people should be asked a second time.

I fail to see why all the Brexit idiots are shitting themselves and the government keep bleating on about how it would be undemocratic to have a second vote. Firstly at least everyone would know what they were voting for and what the implications could be and secondly I fear the majority for leaving would be even greater as people are totally drunk off with the whole debacle

The best thing about a second vote would be that (hopefully) more would vote so that the majority (either way) would represent a greater percentage of the population and the result would therefore have more credibility than the first farce



Would we know what we are voting for? Leave is still as murky as it ever was, the debate has barely progressed beyond the Backstop. I downloaded the draft agreement but there's a massive amount of detail still undecided, which is the most important thing to our daily lives. If there is going to another confirmation referendum it surely has to be on the final deal, not the half-baked thing which TM cannot even get through parliament. If we have a referendum now it has to be on whether to progress to the next stage, there should be a third one after that when there is a final deal with all the details provided. I actually think there is a lot more important things for parliament to do over the next 5 years than rewrite the rules which we already have so I will always vote for the status quo.
Posted by: Ipswin, March 29, 2019, 11:40am; Reply: 317
Quoted from GrimRob


Would we know what we are voting for? Leave is still as murky as it ever was, the debate has barely progressed beyond the Backstop. I downloaded the draft agreement but there's a massive amount of detail still undecided, which is the most important thing to our daily lives. If there is going to another confirmation referendum it surely has to be on the final deal, not the half-baked thing which TM cannot even get through parliament. If we have a referendum now it has to be on whether to progress to the next stage, there should be a third one after that when there is a final deal with all the details provided. I actually think there is a lot more important things for parliament to do over the next 5 years than rewrite the rules which we already have so I will always vote for the status quo.


I actually meant a vote on the final deal but even if we voted again now at least we would know that the £350M for the NHS and an end to immigration was a load of lies and total balderdash designed to lure in the elderly and ill informed to vote leave

Posted by: Maringer, March 29, 2019, 1:56pm; Reply: 318
Quoted from GrimRob


Would we know what we are voting for? Leave is still as murky as it ever was, the debate has barely progressed beyond the Backstop.


The fundamentals would be decided i.e. out of the single market, out of the customs union. Which would be excrement, obviously, but that's the basics. Anything else is just tinkering around the edges - we'll try to strike a trade deal where nothing changes for us and won't get it because we'll be a much smaller fish in a bigger pond. The new trade deals with bigger countries such as the US, India, China will flood our markets with certain cheap goods to the detriment of our local businesses. If our agriculture sector isn't badly hit, I'll be surprised. The pound will devalue so other imports will become more expensive and we just don't manufacture enough to be successful exporters and benefit from the devaluation. Thanks for that, Maggie.

The EU is the wealthiest and most successful trading bloc and membership of it means a lot. It's why all the East European countries are desperate to join and the rest of the world think we're such idiots to want to leave.

Assuming we do leave the EU, I can only imagine how some will react to the greater influx of immigrants from outside of Europe that we need to support our economy with its aging population. I'd imagine some will realise they were sold a pup but no doubt some other scapegoats will be found. It'll be the fault of those perfidious foreigners one way or another.
Posted by: Maringer, March 29, 2019, 2:57pm; Reply: 319
And so it continues...
Posted by: Ipswin, March 29, 2019, 2:58pm; Reply: 320
If May hadn't been over confident and hadn't called that snap general election in the mistaken view that she would win it with a decent majority none of this would be happening.

PMSL silly female dog.
Posted by: LH, March 29, 2019, 2:59pm; Reply: 321
It appeared to me that the Tories did their best to throw that election so that Labour would win and then be forced to deliver Brexit or face the wrath of the gammons if they revoked article 50. Either way they proper copulated it.
Posted by: Rodley Mariner, March 29, 2019, 4:35pm; Reply: 322
I think it's actually shown she was right to call that election. She'd have had all the same problems without it. Nice big majority and she could have copulated off the ERG and the nutty DUP would still be as irrelevant as we all wish they were. The mistake she made was running such a complacent, abysmal campaign.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, March 29, 2019, 4:41pm; Reply: 323
Quoted from Grim74


Couple of things firstly the £9M  pounds propaganda leaflet delivered to every home in the country spelled out exactly what was involved especially if we dared to vote leave.
Secondly we didn’t vote for a deal the mandate was to leave any deals could and would of taken care of themselves.

I take on board what you are saying but if you were at such a basic level of political understanding then I doubt there would be any change now and that goes for the leave and remain voters.

The only genuine option that respects the vote now is to just leave WTO I believe in my Country to pull through to be prosperous and free, I just cannot for the life of me understand why my fellow countrymen and women would want their once proud nation to be nothing more than a puppet state 😔


Where have you been since 1942? We've been at the Yanks beck and call since then. Suez in 56 should have made people realise where we stood.

This independence marlarkey is just a load of hot air. We haven't been and we won't be, and it's nothing to do with the EU.
Posted by: GrimRob, March 29, 2019, 4:42pm; Reply: 324
Quoted from Ipswin
If May hadn't been over confident and hadn't called that snap general election in the mistaken view that she would win it with a decent majority none of this would be happening.

PMSL silly female dog.


Not sure that's true. She's over 50 votes away from getting her deal accepted. I think from memory she only lost about 20-30 seats.

She's been made a scapegoat. She was handed mission impossible and nobody else was willing to do the job. She approached it in totally the wrong way by not involving other parties. It was obvious the DUP would never agree to what she steered the negotiations towards, plus numerous of her own colleagues.
Posted by: Rodley Mariner, March 29, 2019, 5:01pm; Reply: 325
Quoted from GrimRob


Not sure that's true. She's over 50 votes away from getting her deal accepted. I think from memory she only lost about 20-30 seats.

She's been made a scapegoat. She was handed mission impossible and nobody else was willing to do the job. She approached it in totally the wrong way by not involving other parties. It was obvious the DUP would never agree to what she steered the negotiations towards, plus numerous of her own colleagues.


I think you're being very generous. There was sympathy towards her but she's lost it due to her complete inflexibility. A large number of labour MP's would have worked with her moderates to find a softer brexit that could have found a majority. Instead she's gone all out to find something to please 11 religious zealots and 25 dogmatic lunatics.
Posted by: GrimRob, March 29, 2019, 5:30pm; Reply: 326
Quoted from Rodley Mariner


I think you're being very generous. There was sympathy towards her but she's lost it due to her complete inflexibility. A large number of labour MP's would have worked with her moderates to find a softer brexit that could have found a majority. Instead she's gone all out to find something to please 11 religious zealots and 25 dogmatic lunatics.


Agreed but her colleagues knew what she was like when they installed her without even the need for a vote. She doesn't do compromise or collaboration, she's more or less hand-crafted the terms for this deal herself. It was so predictable in retrospect we would end up where we are today. MPs are more likely to revoke Article 50 than they are to accept No Deal. Besides those choices, the most likely outcome seems to be a very soft Brexit.
Posted by: Ipswin, March 29, 2019, 5:58pm; Reply: 327
OK then as some on here want to cuddle up to May and tell her not to be upset how about blaming that twit Cameron. If he hadn't promised to hold a referendum in order to win his last general election we wouldn't be in this position now

Thank intercourse the Jocks didn't go for independence in their referendum, imagine all the excrement that would have caused
Posted by: barralad, March 29, 2019, 6:42pm; Reply: 328
Quoted from Rodley Mariner
I think it's actually shown she was right to call that election. She'd have had all the same problems without it. Nice big majority and she could have copulated off the ERG and the nutty DUP would still be as irrelevant as we all wish they were. The mistake she made was running such a complacent, abysmal campaign.


I've said this all along. She needed to get herself some breathing space. Her advisors reckoned she'd get a 200 seat majority..the press backed it up. What nobody reckoned with was her level of incompetence. The current problems can be backdated to Friday 9 June 2017. The day her policy was effectively doomed.
Posted by: chaos33, March 29, 2019, 9:19pm; Reply: 329
Quoted from Rodley Mariner


I think you're being very generous. There was sympathy towards her but she's lost it due to her complete inflexibility. A large number of labour MP's would have worked with her moderates to find a softer brexit that could have found a majority. Instead she's gone all out to find something to please 11 religious zealots and 25 dogmatic lunatics.


This
Posted by: Grim74, March 30, 2019, 10:47am; Reply: 330
Great pro Brexit demo outside parliament yesterday brilliant atmosphere created by true patriots.

Some cracking speeches made from various figures right across the political spectrum but one of the stand out speeches was from a guy called Paul Emberry. National organiser of Trade Unionists against the EU. He hit the nail on the head when he talked about a divided nation, and this was a part of that speech -

People say this country is divided 52/48 this isn’t true. I know lots of remainers, there are millions of vote remainers and I respect them because they voted the way did. But they have accepted the result of the referendum and urged the government to get on with it!
And we should pay tribute to these people they are true democrats. (Cue mas applause all around from the leave crowd)

Now let’s be clear where the divide is, it’s not between the 52/48 it’s not between the leavers and remainers it’s quite simply between democrats and the anti-democrats.
Posted by: grimsby pete, March 30, 2019, 2:07pm; Reply: 331
All is not lost yet May still has another 2 or 3 chances of bringing her deal back before the 12th. ;D
Posted by: Ipswin, March 30, 2019, 7:58pm; Reply: 332
Quoted from Grim74
Great pro Brexit demo outside parliament yesterday brilliant atmosphere created by true patriots.

.


Tommy Robinson and Nigel Farage ? FFS

Posted by: Marinerz93, March 30, 2019, 8:43pm; Reply: 333
Quoted from Ipswin


But they weren't that's the whole point. People had no idea what they were voting for (if there was another vote tomorrow they still wouldn't!) that's precisely why there should be another vote on the final deal (whatever that is)

How the intercourse could they ask people and how the intercourse could people decide what they wanted when no one knew what it would entail?


The question posed was
1. Stay in the European Union
or
2.Leave the European Union

After hearing the remain and the leave debates people in the majority voted to leave, both sides lied, both sides highlighted the pro's and con's of being in the EU. This vote wasn't just on the leave or remain debates but how the EU treated Cameron and told him to intercourse off when he went to sort some issues out in Brussels, remoaners seem to forget this when they are blowing off the glorious EU unelected bureaucrats..

The majority voted leave. it didn't say leave but we need a deal. it was stay or leave, democracy is dying in this country aided and abetted by those who hate this country and hate democracy.
Posted by: Rodley Mariner, March 30, 2019, 9:51pm; Reply: 334
Do one of your funny pictures.
Posted by: Marinerz93, March 30, 2019, 11:10pm; Reply: 335
Quoted from Rodley Mariner
Do one of your funny pictures.




Posted by: Rick12, March 31, 2019, 8:46am; Reply: 336
Quoted from Rodley Mariner
Do one of your funny pictures.
;D

Posted by: Rick12, March 31, 2019, 8:48am; Reply: 337
Quoted from Marinerz93



]


I like your sense of humour Marinerz   ;)

Posted by: ginnywings, March 31, 2019, 10:11am; Reply: 338
So, Bojo has now relented and said he will "reluctantly" back Theresa May's Brexit deal. I wonder if it has anything to do with her saying she will step down if it is voted through?

Nah! He wouldn't be that self serving, would he?
Posted by: Grim74, March 31, 2019, 2:26pm; Reply: 339
Quoted from ginnywings
So, Bojo has now relented and said he will "reluctantly" back Theresa May's Brexit deal. I wonder if it has anything to do with her saying she will step down if it is voted through?

Nah! He wouldn't be that self serving, would he?


Agree!
Posted by: Marinerz93, March 31, 2019, 6:23pm; Reply: 340
Quoted from Rick12


I like your sense of humour Marinerz   ;)



Posted by: Rick12, April 1, 2019, 9:24am; Reply: 341
Quoted from Marinerz93


:)

Posted by: FishOutOfWater, April 1, 2019, 1:02pm; Reply: 342
Quoted from grimsby pete
All is not lost yet May still has another 2 or 3 chances of bringing her deal back before the 12th. ;D


For some reason I have that old song in my head..... The 12th of Never   ;)
Posted by: Grim74, April 1, 2019, 5:28pm; Reply: 343
Latest change of direction for the Corbyn lunatic party who now publicly back the common market 2.0 plan which means accessing the single market which would then entail full freedom of movement, when their manifesto clearly stated “Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union.”

I wonder how the Labour brexit voters will react🤔
Posted by: ska face, April 1, 2019, 7:17pm; Reply: 344
Thought the vote was all about sovereignty, not foreigners?
Posted by: Grim74, April 1, 2019, 7:53pm; Reply: 345
Yes a sovereign country would mean we actually get to control our own borders and decide who we let in. How dare we want that.. bloody xenophobes😂
Posted by: ska face, April 1, 2019, 9:40pm; Reply: 346
Quoted from Grim74
Yes a sovereign country would mean we actually get to control our own borders and decide who we let in. How dare we want that.. bloody xenophobes😂


Aye, sounds about right...
Posted by: Rodley Mariner, April 1, 2019, 10:13pm; Reply: 347
......still good news about the chocolate oranges.
Posted by: chaos33, April 1, 2019, 10:15pm; Reply: 348
:)
Posted by: chaos33, April 1, 2019, 10:15pm; Reply: 349
This

Posted by: forza ivano, April 3, 2019, 12:14am; Reply: 350
Well she's gone and put the car amongst the pigeons with that offer. On the one hand Cornyn is licking his lips in glee but on the other hand he must be fearing it's all a potential trap.
Meanwhile the ERG are spitting feathers an d God knows what the level of hatred must be for her. Shame they can't do anything about it. You may remember that they backed in the no confidence vote in December and we all know, since they've told us so loudly and so often, that once you've voted on something it's impossible to change your mind and have another vote....         😂😂😂
Posted by: Grim74, April 3, 2019, 6:25am; Reply: 351
Wow she’s actually sunken to new depths after a 7hour lock in with her cabinet she then decides to ask a fuckin committed Marxist for help!
Posted by: Maringer, April 3, 2019, 9:00am; Reply: 352
Corbyn is a moderate social democrat, not a Marxist. As I've noted many times in the past, most of his policies wouldn't look too much out of place in a Conservative Party manifesto from the 1970s, before Thatcher got her grubby claws on power, of course. Look at all of the successful Scandinavian economies to see what sensible social democratic policies can do. Not our corrupt and rigged version of capitalism.

Back to the topic in hand, this move from May strikes me as just another attempt to save the Tory Party. If Labour get involved in any agreement, the blame game from those unhappy with the outcome will be shared between the two parties. Unfortunately, too many people just aren't aware enough not to fall for this ploy.

If no agreement can be made, May will attempt to shift some of the blame onto Corbyn/Labour so they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

However, the Tories have made such a excrement show of things that, on balance, it would be better for the national interest if Labour did help to get a more sensible agreement of some sort through parliament. You can only let the Tories intercourse things up for so long when the future of the country is at stake and, by God, they've been doing their very best to intercourse it up for a decade now.
Posted by: codcheeky, April 3, 2019, 9:58am; Reply: 353
May asking Corbyn what to do, you couldn’t make this stuff up.  Unfortunately she is 2 years too late, the Tories are in meltdown over this, there supporters who were crying about Labour deselection are now being infiltrated by UK on a massive scale and those who are remain or softer brexitare going to facevotes of no confidence.  Labour will be unlikely to trust May who has lied and deceived at every turn.
Hopefully an election soon so Corbyn can sort out this Chaos
Posted by: Grim74, April 3, 2019, 10:14am; Reply: 354
Actually agree with some of what you say this time Maringer but when Corbyn’s own shadow chancellor says his leader is a Marxist and that the party is now strongly influenced by Marxism then I fail to to see what you’re missing, despite what you like to think and say it’s always best from the horses mouth.

I’ve told you before the Scandinavian model is a poor argument to compare!
It just wouldn’t work here much smaller country amongst other reasons I’ve covered this with you.

May is politically copulated now so looking to take Corbyn down with her to deludedly believe it will save her party in a general election.
Posted by: Rodley Mariner, April 3, 2019, 10:25am; Reply: 355
I suspect the talks with Corbyn might be about pressuring the ERG into supporting her original deal. She can hold talks, come away saying we might have a way forward but to a very soft, unsatisfactory Brexit then say to the ERG you've got two choices.....I've still seen nothing that makes me think she wants anything other than her own deal.
Posted by: Maringer, April 3, 2019, 4:57pm; Reply: 356
Quoted from Grim74
Actually agree with some of what you say this time Maringer but when Corbyn’s own shadow chancellor says his leader is a Marxist and that the party is now strongly influenced by Marxism then I fail to to see what you’re missing, despite what you like to think and say it’s always best from the horses mouth.

I’ve told you before the Scandinavian model is a poor argument to compare!
It just wouldn’t work here much smaller country amongst other reasons I’ve covered this with you.

May is politically copulated now so looking to take Corbyn down with her to deludedly believe it will save her party in a general election.


I don't think McDonnell has ever claimed Corbyn is a Marxist, has he? I know Corbyn has never claimed to be one himself.

I know McDonnell has described himself as such in the past, but he clearly isn't, given his policy aims and other things he's said/done. I suppose it really depends on what you mean by Marxist. Is he a classical Marxist and thinks the state should take control of the means of production? Doubt it. Does he think the critique of Capitalism by Marx is correct? Probably. And you'd have to say that the way the world economy has been reshaped since the 1980s seems to be proving Marx correct so far. However, I don't imagine it will inevitably lead to a popular revolution and universal move to socialism and I doubt McDonnell thinks that either. Too many levers of power for the establishment to use to keep control these days, but there's no doubt that Capitalism continues to eat itself at an increasing rate, especially as so many of the checks and balances of government have been removed in the neoliberal era.

I don't recall seeing you posting anything about the Nordic model, though I certainly might have forgotten. Needless to say, I disagree that a larger state couldn't work in the UK - if you can point me towards your post (and can remember where it is!) I'll take a look.

One other point is that it could well be that May's latest ploy is just a shady way of deliberately trying to force her deal through. If we're going to have a longer extension, we'll have to legislate by 12th April to enable us to hold European elections which are an absolute requirement of us remaining in the EU for even a shorter amount of time. If we aren't able to hold EU elections on 23rd May, then we're out either with May's deal or no deal, because the European Parliament would be illegally constituted if we don't have MEPs there, even if just for a few months until an exit. Given how dishonest and devious May has been thus far, I wouldn't put it past her to be claiming to want talks with Corbyn while actually acting in bad faith to try and waste time. Here's an article about this possibility:

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/04/02/no-10-statement-look-out-for-theresa-may-s-no-deal-trap
Posted by: GrimRob, April 3, 2019, 8:59pm; Reply: 357
I wouldn't worry about Corbyn him and May will just go through the motions of pretending to find common ground, and of course fail which will push responsibility back to parliament. It's Monday where the action will all happen. May is in charge now so she'll pick a voting process which will give as much chance of her deal coming out top, and remember something has to win. Hats off for her if she gets her deal through. There's going to be a massive amount of tactical voting, and it could sneak through in first place, maybe with a confirmatory referendum attached to it.
Posted by: grimsby pete, April 3, 2019, 10:50pm; Reply: 358
Corbyn  has been called a Marxist by at least 2 MP's today so there must be some truth in there somewhere.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, April 3, 2019, 11:40pm; Reply: 359
Quoted from grimsby pete
Corbyn  has been called a Marxist by at least 2 MP's today so there must be some truth in there somewhere.


Like MPs have never lied.

I don't know if he is a Marxist or not, but you've got to pick a better test than that Pete.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, April 3, 2019, 11:45pm; Reply: 360
PS May has finally done what should have happened in 2016, and that is consult the other parties. This change in policy (ie leaving the EU) is the biggest thing to happen for decades and whatever course we take should be a decision in the national interest.

I think what Parliament has been doing for the last couple of weeks, debating all the options is a good sign, and something our elected representatives should be doing.

Finally, finally, the PM is realising.
Posted by: Maringer, April 4, 2019, 11:46am; Reply: 361
Quoted from grimsby pete
Corbyn  has been called a Marxist by at least 2 MP's today so there must be some truth in there somewhere.


Notice how this 'Corbyn is a Marxist' meme has suddenly appeared out of nowhere. It hasn't been heard (or at least I can't remember reading it anywhere) until the past few days and now we have Tory MPs left, right and centre calling him a Marxist every time they appear in the media. There has obviously been a memo sent out by Tory High Command.

The start of some electioneering, perhaps?

It's quite comical to see, in fact. Even those Tory Ministers supportive of May's deal are having a go at Corbyn whilst welcoming the 'discussions'! I suppose it's no different from their negotiating tactics with the EU which have worked out so well.

As a rule, it's not a good idea to slag off somebody publicly when you're reliant on their goodwill.
Posted by: GrimRob, April 4, 2019, 3:07pm; Reply: 362
Even if he is a Marxist he is not actually asking for full-blown Marxism. He's more or less asking for something similar to what we have now. The revolutionaries are not him but the Brexiteers who want to scrap huge chunks of our economic system and rewrite 40 years of laws. They are the ones who want to play with our jobs and prosperity based upon pure theory (as the works of Marx were), not someone who is trying to hang on to as much of the status quo as he can.
Posted by: AdamHaddock, April 5, 2019, 9:40am; Reply: 363
May asking for an extension to the end of June. Presumably she would only need that much time if an election and / or referendum is going to be squeezed in?
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, April 5, 2019, 2:08pm; Reply: 364
Quoted from AdamHaddock
May asking for an extension to the end of June. Presumably she would only need that much time if an election and / or referendum is going to be squeezed in?


What's the word they are using.... a flextension?  

It's unbelievable how long this process is taking and every day no matter what goes on in parliament with the politicians,  there's no real movement.

Brexit is becoming more and more like our new ground project  ::)
Posted by: Maringer, April 5, 2019, 2:33pm; Reply: 365
Quoted from FishOutOfWater

Brexit is becoming more and more like our new ground project  ::)


Cool. When do I get my cap?
Posted by: KingstonMariner, April 5, 2019, 3:31pm; Reply: 366
Ludicrous for all these Tory Breixteers to call Corbyn a Marxist. They're just as extreme in their own way.

And Brexiteers are always telling us everyone is entitled to their opinion. Translation, 'everyone is entitled to their opinion if they want the same sort of Brexit that I want. And if I don't get it now I'll sthcweam and sthcweam and sthcweam.'
Posted by: Ipswin, April 5, 2019, 4:05pm; Reply: 367
Quoted from FishOutOfWater



Brexit is becoming more and more like our new ground project  ::)


Lets hope it takes as long to come to fruition

Posted by: chrissy, April 5, 2019, 4:34pm; Reply: 368
Quoted from Ipswin


Lets hope it takes as long to come to fruition



Well I think we will still talking about Brexit when we sit in our new ground Swin.
Posted by: ska face, April 5, 2019, 11:04pm; Reply: 369
Quoted from grimsby pete
Corbyn  has been called a Marxist by at least 2 MP's today so there must be some truth in there somewhere.


They also said he was a Russian spy, and look where that ended - one MP having to pay a 5-figure sum in damages (donated to a food bank) and make a public apology for the baseless smear.

We actually be interested to hear a Marxist critique of Corbyn’s policies from some of these people throwing the term about. My guess is they know absolutely jaff all about Marxism and could do even less in applying it to Corbyn’s moderate social-democratic policies.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, April 5, 2019, 11:40pm; Reply: 370
I bet if anyone is in the pocket of Putin in all of this they are probably Brexiteers. Qui bono?
Posted by: Marinerz93, April 6, 2019, 8:05pm; Reply: 371
Quoted from KingstonMariner
Ludicrous for all these Tory Breixteers to call Corbyn a Marxist. They're just as extreme in their own way.

And Brexiteers are always telling us everyone is entitled to their opinion. Translation, 'everyone is entitled to their opinion if they want the same sort of Brexit that I want. And if I don't get it now I'll sthcweam and sthcweam and sthcweam.'


The vote to leave or remain was final and no going back, Translation the remoaners sthcweam and sthcweam and sthcweam, we need a people vote, well we had one cry baby in 2016.





Posted by: barralad, April 9, 2019, 7:01pm; Reply: 372
I "follow" on twitter one of the Hull M.P.s because I'm interested in whether opinions have changed on Brexit as time has gone on. She asked the question of her constituents as to what they wanted from Brexit and put up some of the responses. There were strong representations for SEVEN different Leave outcomes. Obviously some had similarities but virtually all were accompanied by the "you need to do what the people want". Her problem is that for her constituents there is no clear majority other than the majority which says we need to leave, despite this view that "Leave means Leave" I strongly suspect she isn't on her own.
I've never considered that people who voted Leave didn't believe they knew what they were voting for but I'd put my next months pension on the fact that Brexit means different things to different people.
Posted by: Grim74, April 9, 2019, 8:42pm; Reply: 373
Quoted from barralad
I "follow" on twitter one of the Hull M.P.s because I'm interested in whether opinions have changed on Brexit as time has gone on. She asked the question of her constituents as to what they wanted from Brexit and put up some of the responses. There were strong representations for SEVEN different Leave outcomes. Obviously some had similarities but virtually all were accompanied by the "you need to do what the people want". Her problem is that for her constituents there is no clear majority other than the majority which says we need to leave, despite this view that "Leave means Leave" I strongly suspect she isn't on her own.
I've never considered that people who voted Leave didn't believe they knew what they were voting for but I'd put my next months pension on the fact that Brexit means different things to different people.


The main goal was sovereignty everything else is a wish list that sovereignty would ultimately bring free trade deals, immigration control, return of our fishing waters etc,etc, still yet to meet anyone who voted for a claim on a bus 🙄.
Posted by: grimsby pete, April 13, 2019, 7:52pm; Reply: 374
To ask the general public to vote on a subject so serious as Brexit was darn right stupid,

BUT

The man Cameron did ask and we answered and he fooked off and left someone else to clear up the mess.

Except we have no one in charge at the moment who can clear it up,

Maybe we should have an election and if that does not work we could have another one and then another one. ;D
Posted by: barralad, April 14, 2019, 3:55pm; Reply: 375
Quoted from Grim74


The main goal was sovereignty everything else is a wish list that sovereignty would ultimately bring free trade deals, immigration control, return of our fishing waters etc,etc, still yet to meet anyone who voted for a claim on a bus 🙄.


Well you obviously haven't tried very hard! The Remain campaign in Grimsby all but ceased once the bus was unveiled. It was an absolute master stroke from the Leave campaign and it resonated with voters across the country. It was the second biggest response I got on the doorstep after the business about fishing rights. Unashamedly populist but the pathetic Remain campaign couldn't counter it.
Posted by: Grim74, April 14, 2019, 9:21pm; Reply: 376
I can honestly say that ive not met anyone who voted for Brexit solely on that basis, I work local entering properties and meeting people on a daily basis not a few weeks during a voting campaign!  And during all this time more often than not over the last few years the topic of conversation turns to brexit.
Posted by: grimsby pete, April 16, 2019, 7:13pm; Reply: 377
The EU are not happy we gave the UK an extension and then they all go on holiday  ;D
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, April 17, 2019, 1:37pm; Reply: 378
Quoted from grimsby pete
The EU are not happy we gave the UK an extension and then they all go on holiday  ;D


They must have known the MPs would be having a well earned Easter break Pete after all the hard work that has gone on in to finding a solution to the impasse

I'm sure when the MPs return they will be firing on all cylinders again.... well until they have their summer recess that is and then you won't get to see them for months on end  ;)

Meanwhile, the clock is ticking...   ::)
Posted by: grimsby pete, April 17, 2019, 7:19pm; Reply: 379
Quoted from FishOutOfWater


They must have known the MPs would be having a well earned Easter break Pete after all the hard work that has gone on in to finding a solution to the impasse

I'm sure when the MPs return they will be firing on all cylinders again.... well until they have their summer recess that is and then you won't get to see them for months on end  ;)

Meanwhile, the clock is ticking...   ::)


Just  between you and me Tim I have a sneaking feeling that  apart from Boris and his friends they don't want us to leave .
Posted by: arryarryarry, April 17, 2019, 10:58pm; Reply: 380
Quoted from KingstonMariner
I bet if anyone is in the pocket of Putin in all of this they are probably Brexiteers. Qui bono?


I must have done something to upset him as he never bothered phoning me to vote Brexit.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, April 18, 2019, 12:57pm; Reply: 381
Quoted from grimsby pete


Just  between you and me Tim I have a sneaking feeling that  apart from Boris and his friends they don't want us to leave .


Never Pete.... I can't believe that!!   ;D

Posted by: Marinerz93, April 28, 2019, 4:13pm; Reply: 382
Now they can sense the democratic betrayal is almost complete the Remoaners move in for the kill with their new war dance...

Posted by: Maringer, April 28, 2019, 9:34pm; Reply: 383
I don't know what's worse. The fact that somebody went to the trouble of making such a risible and witless clip, or the fact that you thought it was funny enough to post.  ??)
Posted by: ska face, April 29, 2019, 11:46am; Reply: 384
Quoted from Marinerz93
Now they can sense the democratic betrayal is almost complete the Remoaners move in for the kill with their new war dance...



Tweet 1122469145273143297 will appear here...
Posted by: Grim74, April 29, 2019, 6:13pm; Reply: 385
No contest two bimbos expressing their love for their country verses a freak show sadomasochist that wants to be ruled and dominated by a foreign empire.
I know who I’d rather be stuck on an island with but hey ho each to there own I guess.
Posted by: Maringer, April 30, 2019, 10:49am; Reply: 386
Foreign empire? Get a flipping grip, man.
Posted by: Marinerz93, May 4, 2019, 4:21pm; Reply: 387
Quoted from Maringer
I don't know what's worse. The fact that somebody went to the trouble of making such a risible and witless clip, or the fact that you thought it was funny enough to post.  ??)


What's worse, I'll tell you what's worse democracy is dead because left wing remoaners didn't get their way, and can't accept they lost.

And the clip is your typical left wing social bed wetting cry baby remainer, most likely touched a nerve with you and your tender fweelings have made you so offended, outraged you do your EU war dance whilst 'crying lifes so unfair'

Here have some fake tears to go with your self loathing.

Posted by: Marinerz93, May 4, 2019, 4:23pm; Reply: 388
Quoted from ska face


Tweet 1122469145273143297 will appear here...


Nice one Breunion Boy



And whilst your hating democracy, and full of self loathing why don't go go and apologise to the jocks.

Posted by: AdamHaddock, May 5, 2019, 3:46pm; Reply: 389
Remainers are not self loathing. We just don't have irrational delusions of British grandeur. We don't think half the world still asks how high when old blighty shouts jump. We don't want our economic prospects and public infrastructure at the mercy of corporate America. We get why it makes sense to be part of a strong trading bloc in the modern world when, as an individual nation, we will soon be overtaken by the  likes of Indonesia. We get why cross border cooperation in areas like security makes sense. We understand that areas around the North of England have been shafted by decades of thatcherite economics but aren't dim enough to think that Polish chefs and Bulgarian farm workers are to blame. What's really needed is a left wing government with a massive infrastructure plan and job creating programme (not to mention strong unions)

Brexit will improve the lives of no one except tax dodging elites
Posted by: Marinerz93, May 5, 2019, 4:09pm; Reply: 390
Quoted from AdamHaddock
Remainers are not self loathing. We just don't have irrational delusions of British grandeur. We don't think half the world still asks how high when old blighty shouts jump. We don't want our economic prospects and public infrastructure at the mercy of corporate America. We get why it makes sense to be part of a strong trading bloc in the modern world when, as an individual nation, we will soon be overtaken by the  likes of Indonesia. We get why cross border cooperation in areas like security makes sense. We understand that areas around the North of England have been shafted by decades of thatcherite economics but aren't dim enough to think that Polish chefs and Bulgarian farm workers are to blame. What's really needed is a left wing government with a massive infrastructure plan and job creating programme (not to mention strong unions)

Brexit will improve the lives of no one except tax dodging elites


Britain is a great trading nation, for all the benefits of being in EU the are many down sides, we don't make our own rules, we are basically run by Brusells, the EU has made London and the south rich but what about Grimsby, shafted by fishing quotas, and other EU countries fishing our waters whilst when we fish theirs they ram our boats and cut fishing lines.

Britain needs immigrants, and Britain needs seasonal farm workers, what is wrong with Australian type immigration control, bringing in who we need and keeping out radicals as we now have enough of them now, rapists and murderers and deporting those who break our laws.

The EU is in recession and has been for some time, the forecast for the EU is a domino economic collapse of country to another. Britain saved Ireland from economic collapse, the EU did sweet FA about that, and coupled with what the EU did to Greece, I don't trust the German bankers over ours even though ours are questionable at the best of times.  

Balony, cross border security, they don't know who walked into the Europe when Merkel opened the floodgates telling all an sundry to come on in.

A left wing UK government, Christ on a bike.



Posted by: Ipswin, May 6, 2019, 11:29am; Reply: 391
Quoted from AdamHaddock
Remainers are not self loathing. We just don't have irrational delusions of British grandeur. We don't think half the world still asks how high when old blighty shouts jump. We don't want our economic prospects and public infrastructure at the mercy of corporate America. We get why it makes sense to be part of a strong trading bloc in the modern world when, as an individual nation, we will soon be overtaken by the  likes of Indonesia. We get why cross border cooperation in areas like security makes sense. We understand that areas around the North of England have been shafted by decades of thatcherite economics but aren't dim enough to think that Polish chefs and Bulgarian farm workers are to blame. What's really needed is a left wing government with a massive infrastructure plan and job creating programme (not to mention strong unions)

Brexit will improve the lives of no one except tax dodging elites


Post of the year

Posted by: Grim74, May 7, 2019, 8:51am; Reply: 392
Quoted Text


Brexit will improve the lives of no one except tax dodging elites


Remaining in the EU will improve the lives of no one in the UK, remaining in the EU will keep us in a club that screws Africa out of a fair trade deal improving the lives of no one in the poorest continent in the world! So how does that sit with the liberal rights loving EU numpty’s? 🙈
Posted by: Grim74, May 7, 2019, 9:02am; Reply: 393
Talking off tax dodging elites did anyone Read about EU members voting to have their expense’s hidden? The pigs don’t like us plebs seeing how they spend our taxes.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/25/mep-expenses-eu-court-ruling
Posted by: barralad, May 7, 2019, 2:28pm; Reply: 394
Quoted from Grim74
Talking off tax dodging elites did anyone Read about EU members voting to have their expense’s hidden? The pigs don’t like us plebs seeing how they spend our taxes.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/25/mep-expenses-eu-court-ruling


I presume Nige and his cronies were on board with that?
Posted by: Grim74, May 7, 2019, 2:41pm; Reply: 395
Quoted from barralad


I presume Nige and his cronies were on board with that?


This the same Nigel campaigning to and prepared to lose his job for the greater good.
Posted by: Maringer, May 7, 2019, 3:35pm; Reply: 396
If we forget the millions Farage has 'earned' as an MEP despite having an appalling voting/attendance record (and less the money he has had to pay back for fraudulently employing staff to work on non-EU projects), upon leaving the EU, Farage will get a pay-off of well over £100k and then happily pocket a pension of more than £70k in subsequent years. Of course, his pension will be in Euros as well, so he stands to benefit if the pound weakens.

When you consider he's reportedly earning half a million a year from his 'media' work as well (being quite happy to pimp himself out to any dodgy right-wing cause you can think of), I think our Nige has carved himself out a pretty good living from the EU. If only he'd managed to be elected as an MP on one of his many attempts as well. He'd have got his EU pension and the MP's salary and another pension in the future! Bet he's gutted.
Posted by: Ipswin, May 7, 2019, 3:56pm; Reply: 397
Quoted from Grim74


Remaining in the EU will improve the lives of no one in the UK, remaining in the EU will keep us in a club that screws Africa out of a fair trade deal improving the lives of no one in the poorest continent in the world! So how does that sit with the liberal rights loving EU numpty’s? 🙈


So you're saying we should leave the EU to help some poor fornicators in Africa?

Posted by: KingstonMariner, May 12, 2019, 5:24pm; Reply: 398
Quoted from Maringer
If we forget the millions Farage has 'earned' as an MEP despite having an appalling voting/attendance record (and less the money he has had to pay back for fraudulently employing staff to work on non-EU projects), upon leaving the EU, Farage will get a pay-off of well over £100k and then happily pocket a pension of more than £70k in subsequent years. Of course, his pension will be in Euros as well, so he stands to benefit if the pound weakens.

When you consider he's reportedly earning half a million a year from his 'media' work as well (being quite happy to pimp himself out to any dodgy right-wing cause you can think of), I think our Nige has carved himself out a pretty good living from the EU. If only he'd managed to be elected as an MP on one of his many attempts as well. He'd have got his EU pension and the MP's salary and another pension in the future! Bet he's gutted.


I see he's so patriotic that he started another party to split the 'Patriotic Putting Britain First' pro-leave vote. He's not at all self-serving is he?
Posted by: Marinerz93, May 12, 2019, 6:29pm; Reply: 399
Quoted from Ipswin


So you're saying we should leave the EU to help some poor fornicators in Africa?



Wouldn't  trading with African countries help them better than sending millions in aid that doesn't seem to be distributed to where it is needed the most.
Posted by: Ipswin, May 12, 2019, 8:59pm; Reply: 400
Quoted from Marinerz93


Wouldn't  trading with African countries help them better than sending millions in aid that doesn't seem to be distributed to where it is needed the most.


I have no desire to help them in any shape or form be it through trade or through aid. Most of them have become skint basket cases since they got the independence they craved from us, France, Belgium etc. Rhodesia (sorry Zimbabwe) was known as the 'bread basket' of Africa due to its outstanding agriculture under colonial rule. Aid? Not from me mate, and as far as trade is concerned they've got nowt we want (or money to pay us for any exports we make to them)

Posted by: Grim74, May 13, 2019, 10:22am; Reply: 401
Quoted from Ipswin


I have no desire to help them in any shape or form be it through trade or through aid. Most of them have become skint basket cases since they got the independence they craved from us, France, Belgium etc. Rhodesia (sorry Zimbabwe) was known as the 'bread basket' of Africa due to its outstanding agriculture under colonial rule. Aid? Not from me mate, and as far as trade is concerned they've got nowt we want (or money to pay us for any exports we make to them)



Thought you was just ignorant at first but it’s now  clear that you’re really stupid, an absolute idiot. Even the remoaner’s on here must be shaking their heads.
Posted by: grimsby pete, May 13, 2019, 12:18pm; Reply: 402
If you look at most of the African  countries that are struggling it is because of war greed and draught,

You have to feel sorry for the normal people and kids but the leaders are all corrupt and most of the money you and I send in aid does not reach the people it was aimed at.
Posted by: Marinerz93, May 13, 2019, 10:20pm; Reply: 403
Quoted from Ipswin


I have no desire to help them in any shape or form be it through trade or through aid. Most of them have become skint basket cases since they got the independence they craved from us, France, Belgium etc. Rhodesia (sorry Zimbabwe) was known as the 'bread basket' of Africa due to its outstanding agriculture under colonial rule. Aid? Not from me mate, and as far as trade is concerned they've got nowt we want (or money to pay us for any exports we make to them)



With the right investment they could have something valuable to trade with, from small acorns and all that.
Posted by: Grim74, May 14, 2019, 8:03am; Reply: 404
This from an ardent outspoken EU supporter -

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/07/trade-wars-africa-donald-trump
Posted by: Grim74, May 14, 2019, 8:22am; Reply: 405
Quoted from grimsby pete
If you look at most of the African  countries that are struggling it is because of war greed and draught.



You’re not wrong Pete but it’s not the whole story the EU lets its farmers dump all their excess and cheap farm produce on African markets, forcing African farmers to sell their products for fxxk all or leave the market altogether. All whilst having the nerve to push for ever more foreign aid to Africa! The EU also imposes stiff tariffs on African agricultural imports, making it impossible for Africa to trade itself out of poverty, which ends up with the poverty war famine and diseases you alluded to it’s a vicious circle.

Corruption and human rights abuse are obvious factors we know most of Africa is run by tinpot dictators, but this scale of human tragedies was unheard of before the trading EEC became the superstate which is the EU.
Posted by: barralad, May 17, 2019, 7:14pm; Reply: 406
Quoted from Grim74



You’re not wrong Pete but it’s not the whole story the EU lets its farmers dump all their excess and cheap farm produce on African markets, forcing African farmers to sell their products for fxxk all or leave the market altogether. All whilst having the nerve to push for ever more foreign aid to Africa! The EU also imposes stiff tariffs on African agricultural imports, making it impossible for Africa to trade itself out of poverty, which ends up with the poverty war famine and diseases you alluded to it’s a vicious circle.

Corruption and human rights abuse are obvious factors we know most of Africa is run by tinpot dictators, but this scale of human tragedies was unheard of before the trading EEC became the superstate which is the EU.


If ever an issue cut across party politics it is Brexit. I have many friends to the left of me who cite exactly the situation described in that article and your post as reasons to vote to leave.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, May 17, 2019, 10:50pm; Reply: 407
Grim74 at home

Posted by: LH, May 26, 2019, 10:21pm; Reply: 408
Four results in and it’s already very clear that there should have been a single party who should have been nominated as the remain tactical vote for the whole country. He might be a complete cunnt but he’s a clever cunnt that Farage cause the headlines will all be about 40% Brexit Party votes.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, May 26, 2019, 11:20pm; Reply: 409
Brexit party on 31% and LD on 21% and Green on 12%. Remainers slightly ahead.
Posted by: Grim74, May 27, 2019, 8:24am; Reply: 410
Quoted from KingstonMariner
Brexit party on 31% and LD on 21% and Green on 12%. Remainers slightly ahead.


Here comes the spin 😂
The people who voted for the Brexit party was on the ONE issue alone! Factor in the 3m plus EU citizens (who would not be allowed to vote in a referendum or a GE) who undoubtedly voted for a pro remain party and your grip on them straws soon slips😎
Posted by: Maringer, May 27, 2019, 9:04am; Reply: 411
Well, you couldn't really vote for the 'Brexit Party' for anything other than a one issue reason. They don't have any policies! Too lazy to even pencil in a manifesto but then people might not like what they stand for.

Calling them a political party is a bit generous as well. They are a limited company with no policies and no members. How does this make a political party, I wonder? Oh well, their newly-elected MEPs will no doubt be very happy to take a generous pay-off from the EU if we do leave or will just copy their UKIP forebears if we stay by not attending, not voting and fiddling their expenses.
Posted by: Manchester Mariner, May 27, 2019, 9:34am; Reply: 412
Tories and Labour got a huge bashing but it just seems people are spinning it either as 'the success of the Brexit Party shows we need to deliver Brexit ' or 'The success of the Lib Dems and Greens shows we need to put it back to the people.' So essentially we're still at round about 52%-48% and set for the same discussions and arguments we've been having for the last two and a bit years and probably will have until we and a couple more generations die.

At least Steven Yaxley-Lennon was buried.
Posted by: Grim74, May 27, 2019, 9:35am; Reply: 413
Quoted from Maringer
Well, you couldn't really vote for the 'Brexit Party' for anything other than a one issue reason. They don't have any policies! Too lazy to even pencil in a manifesto but then people might not like what they stand for.

Calling them a political party is a bit generous as well. They are a limited company with no policies and no members. How does this make a political party, I wonder? Oh well, their newly-elected MEPs will no doubt be very happy to take a generous pay-off from the EU if we do leave or will just copy their UKIP forebears if we stay by not attending, not voting and fiddling their expenses.


Ooh not bitter much ...... love it 😂

Pleased you acknowledged the generous pay-off what a ridiculous and absurd waste of taxpayers money, the EU treat us like mugs yet another reason to leave this corrupt mafia.
Posted by: The Old Codger, May 27, 2019, 9:56am; Reply: 414
40% voted for Remain parties, 35% voted for Brexit parties, 25% voted Labour Tory. Just underlines how split the country is.

The next PM will be chosen by 320 Tory MPs and then 160,000 Tory subscribers and will then, probably, be kicked out by a vote of no confidence and we end up with a GE, probably another hung Parliament and we go round in ever decreasing circles.

What a mess!
Posted by: Marinerz93, May 27, 2019, 10:43am; Reply: 415
Quoted from KingstonMariner
Brexit party on 31% and LD on 21% and Green on 12%. Remainers slightly ahead.


You missed the cons and UKIP off that list, although we know your bias at least you could post the truth.

The overwhelming truth is that a party with one aim has come from no where in six weeks to blow all the other parties away, The Lib dems are it seems the only other party to say they want to remain and will do a people's vote, this is just opportunist vote grabbing, the lib dems are a nothing party these days all wind.

The split is a lot closer than the 2016 vote, still Brexit is in the lead all be it by a hair, still I guess there are a lot of old racists alive, give it a decade and the vote will swing the other way eh. The people are still ignorant and don't know what they are voting for, Breixt is falling off a cliff, sad face.



Here print off your own Tim Fallon, Falling off a cliff Brexit mask, you too can join in showing your angst.



And don't forget to learn the EU Remainers war dance.

Posted by: LH, May 27, 2019, 10:44am; Reply: 416
Quoted from The Old Codger
40% voted for Remain parties, 35% voted for Brexit parties, 25% voted Labour Tory. Just underlines how split the country is.

The next PM will be chosen by 320 Tory MPs and then 160,000 Tory subscribers and will then, probably, be kicked out by a vote of no confidence and we end up with a GE, probably another hung Parliament and we go round in ever decreasing circles.

What a mess!


Just what Vlad wanted. From one of the most stable parliaments and democracies in the world to this.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, May 27, 2019, 11:40am; Reply: 417
Quoted from Marinerz93


You missed the cons and UKIP off that list, although we know your bias at least you could post the truth.

The overwhelming truth is that a party with one aim has come from no where in six weeks to blow all the other parties away, The Lib dems are it seems the only other party to say they want to remain and will do a people's vote, this is just opportunist vote grabbing, the lib dems are a nothing party these days all wind.

The split is a lot closer than the 2016 vote, still Brexit is in the lead all be it by a hair, still I guess there are a lot of old racists alive, give it a decade and the vote will swing the other way eh. The people are still ignorant and don't know what they are voting for, Breixt is falling off a cliff, sad face.



Here print off your own Tim Fallon, Falling off a cliff Brexit mask, you too can join in showing your angst.



And don't forget to learn the EU Remainers war dance.



I wondered how long it would be before you popped up with your mad pictures. By the way, you're out of date with the LD leader. The last pic is particularly childish. You don't represent your cause in a good light. If I was a Brexiteer I'd be embarrassed to be associated with people like you.

No spin. Just facts. I also missed SNP, PC, CHUK off. The Cons are not a Brexit party. They're split.  A lot of the Brexit supporting Tory voters switched to Farage.

As for Brexit coming from nowhere in 6 weeks. All they've acheived is grab most of UKIP's votes and some of the Tories, plus the odd socialist.
Posted by: chrissy, May 27, 2019, 2:59pm; Reply: 418
Quoted from The Old Codger
40% voted for Remain parties, 35% voted for Brexit parties, 25% voted Labour Tory. Just underlines how split the country is.

The next PM will be chosen by 320 Tory MPs and then 160,000 Tory subscribers and will then, probably, be kicked out by a vote of no confidence and we end up with a GE, probably another hung Parliament and we go round in ever decreasing circles.

What a mess!


The biggest percentage was the ones who could not be bothered to vote for whatever reason.
Posted by: Marinerz93, May 27, 2019, 7:17pm; Reply: 419
Quoted from KingstonMariner


I wondered how long it would be before you popped up with your mad pictures. By the way, you're out of date with the LD leader. The last pic is particularly childish. You don't represent your cause in a good light. If I was a Brexiteer I'd be embarrassed to be associated with people like you.

No spin. Just facts. I also missed SNP, PC, CHUK off. The Cons are not a Brexit party. They're split.  A lot of the Brexit supporting Tory voters switched to Farage.

As for Brexit coming from nowhere in 6 weeks. All they've acheived is grab most of UKIP's votes and some of the Tories, plus the odd socialist.


Me with my mad pictures and you with your videos of Grim74 at home, you call me childish, you sit aloft in your ivory tower looking down on everyone else who has a different view to you yours, like most cry baby remoaners, (sad face) falling off a cliff Brexit.

I haven't used Tim Fallon as the Leader of the Lim Dems but that annoying cry baby face he used to pull when mentioning Brexit and falling off a cliff, Tim Fallon is the face of falling off a cliff Brexit (sad Brexit face)



The cons are in the main a Brexit Party as they triggered article 50 and have put forward plans for the deal, der. It's the remoaners from the other parties that are stopping democracy and those Brexiteers within the Cons who would rather have a no deal with the league of remoaners from other parties.

Come back with some real stats including how many people overall in the UK voted for the Brexit party but you won't will you. Below is North East Lincs results, Brexit parties well in the lead.



North East Lincolnshire results
Change UK – The Independent Group: 871 (2.67%)

Conservative and Unionist Party: 3,224 (9.9%)

English Democrats: 445 (1.37%)

Green Party: 2,370 (7.28%)

Labour Party: 3,444 (10.58%)

Liberal Democrats: 2,916 (8.95%)

The Brexit Party: 16,895 (51.88%)

The Yorkshire Party: 168 (0.52%)

UK Independence Party (UKIP): 2,234 (6.86%)

Total votes counted: 32,567

Electorate: 114,382

Turnout: 28.7%

The Brexit party didn't exist 6 weeks ago, it has just knocked out all the major players in politics, had this been a remoaners party you would have wet your pants and be doing your EU war dance outside the Town hall.

Posted by: grimsby pete, May 28, 2019, 1:16pm; Reply: 420
71.3 %  could not be arsed  ;)
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, May 28, 2019, 1:42pm; Reply: 421
Quoted from grimsby pete
71.3 %  could not be arsed  ;)


That would also include those that cannot identify with any of the parties' policies Pete.... while apathy is arguably the main cause, many have decided enough is enough with our system and actively made a choice to not vote, which really is a sad state of affairs
Posted by: grimsby pete, May 28, 2019, 3:17pm; Reply: 422
Quoted from FishOutOfWater


That would also include those that cannot identify with any of the parties' policies Pete.... while apathy is arguably the main cause, many have decided enough is enough with our system and actively made a choice to not vote, which really is a sad state of affairs


I did not vote Tim but that was because I am still recovering from knee surgery if I had I would have voted for the Brexit party ,I think most people are just fed up with the whole thing and wants it to go away,

I am not bothered now if we leave or stay I just want it to end and a return to normality with the news programmes talking about anything but Brexit.
Posted by: Bawmariner, May 28, 2019, 11:31pm; Reply: 423
To be honest I don't think most people care about whether we leave or stay. People want us to concentrate on domestic policy. Its not surprise when were I live it takes 1 month to get a non emergency GP appointment.

I think around 20% Of the population are staunch brexiters and 20% are staunch remainers. Most of these people probably voted on Thursday which is probably why the result was pretty close. If we are going to leave we need to leave with a deal to provide as much continuity for the majority of people who don't care about brexit or even politics (MPs still represent apolitical people too. Plus the reason countries spend years trying to sign free trade agreements is because WTO rules aren't that great.

Also if we are going to leave, politicians need to be honest about how long it is going to take for the country to get back to normal. Leaving the EU is more the start of brexit than the end. Parliment then has to negotiate a new relationship with the EU and other countries  (whether we leave without a deal or not we need agreements  on issues such as air traffic and fishing waters). We also need to pass 100s of laws and spend time and money creating organisations to replace those that were devolved to the eu. The real question is are we prepared to pay for brexit with another 3 years plus of time and money?
Posted by: Town Monkey, May 29, 2019, 9:52am; Reply: 424
Quoted from Bawmariner
To be honest I don't think most people care about whether we leave or stay. People want us to concentrate on domestic policy. Its not surprise when were I live it takes 1 month to get a non emergency GP appointment.

I think around 20% Of the population are staunch brexiters and 20% are staunch remainers. Most of these people probably voted on Thursday which is probably why the result was pretty close. If we are going to leave we need to leave with a deal to provide as much continuity for the majority of people who don't care about brexit or even politics (MPs still represent apolitical people too. Plus the reason countries spend years trying to sign free trade agreements is because WTO rules aren't that great.

Also if we are going to leave, politicians need to be honest about how long it is going to take for the country to get back to normal. Leaving the EU is more the start of brexit than the end. Parliment then has to negotiate a new relationship with the EU and other countries  (whether we leave without a deal or not we need agreements  on issues such as air traffic and fishing waters). We also need to pass 100s of laws and spend time and money creating organisations to replace those that were devolved to the eu. The real question is are we prepared to pay for brexit with another 3 years plus of time and money?


Excellent balanced post.  I'm a staunch remainer and I had a similar discussion with a leaver friend of mine recently.  We're not going to change each others minds.  There are so many domestic issues that need to be addressed that we either need to get on and leave, preferably with a withdrawal agreement, or revoke Article 50 and get on with life.  

My fear now is that after 3 years of May being useless, a hard Brexiteer Tory leader will pursue no deal.  Therefore, our future is in the hands of 100,000 or so Tory members.  Great way to "take back control".  

Our politics is fundamentally broken.  We have a terrible government, an abysmal opposition, and a parliament that can't agree on anything.  It's this inertia more than anything else that's lead to the resurrection of people like Farage and his band of merry populists.  Ann Widdecombe is now an MEP representing me FFS!

Posted by: Grim74, May 29, 2019, 11:11am; Reply: 425
Quoted from Town Monkey


Excellent balanced post.  I'm a staunch remainer and I had a similar discussion with a leaver friend of mine recently.  We're not going to change each others minds.  There are so many domestic issues that need to be addressed that we either need to get on and leave, preferably with a withdrawal agreement, or revoke Article 50 and get on with life.  

My fear now is that after 3 years of May being useless, a hard Brexiteer Tory leader will pursue no deal.  Therefore, our future is in the hands of 100,000 or so Tory members.  Great way to "take back control".  

Our politics is fundamentally broken.  We have a terrible government, an abysmal opposition, and a parliament that can't agree on anything.  It's this inertia more than anything else that's lead to the resurrection of people like Farage and his band of merry populists.  Ann Widdecombe is now an MEP representing me FFS!



Politics is broken but it needed breaking to fix it for the benefit of all, yes Brexit is about having our elected public servant’s making the important decisions without the interference of Brussels, taking back control and being sovereign. But it’s also responsible for the this new era of politics and the end finally of the two party system I think both sides of the divide can rejoice at this.

Take exception to your “people like Farage and populists”  it’s silly comments like this that give the left a bad name especially when Farage’s party is one of the most diverse (politically and culturally). I’ve paid my £25 membership along with over 100,000 others as I believe without the Brexit party we would be under EU rule for the rest of my life and as a proud nationalist I’d find that hard to take .
Posted by: Grim74, May 29, 2019, 11:31am; Reply: 426
Quoted from grimsby pete
71.3 %  could not be arsed  ;)


Thing is Pete the Country was given a referendum to vote on our EU membership and over 70% turn out and this was a phenomenal number, this was supposed to be a once in a generation vote, power to the people and we had people vote for the first time ever, well 3 years later pal and you know the story the people have been betrayed simple as! they think we got it wrong, etc etc and we will probably have to do it all again until we vote the right way! is there any wonder over 70% didn’t vote?
Posted by: Town Monkey, May 29, 2019, 12:12pm; Reply: 427
Quoted from Grim74



Take exception to your “people like Farage and populists”  it’s silly comments like this that give the left a bad name especially when Farage’s party is one of the most diverse (politically and culturally). I’ve paid my £25 membership along with over 100,000 others as I believe without the Brexit party we would be under EU rule for the rest of my life and as a proud nationalist I’d find that hard to take .


The left????  Is anyone left of you a "Leftie"?  I've been a Tory member and voter since I was 18.  I even went to the count at the last GE with my MP.  I should add I'm now longer a member or voter but the last few months have been politically difficult for me as I've seen the party I was a member of for so long, swing even further right.  I finally took a long hard look at myself and realised I couldn't share the same political space as the Francois and Chopes of this world.  

To my mind, it's the inability of people to see any view other than their own, and the death of subtlety and nuance that has broken our politics (the irony isn't lost on me, don't worry).  Oh and facts, I like facts, and experts.
Posted by: Grim74, May 29, 2019, 2:40pm; Reply: 428
It’s not that they’re swinging to the right or even the extreme right that’s just MSM leftie mantra you are gobbling on, the problem is that the party is stuffed full with EUrophile red Tory’s, get rid of these idiots like Rory Stewart FFS and the party can start being Conservative again and listening to the DEMOCRATIC will of the people.
Posted by: Limerick Mariner, May 29, 2019, 5:48pm; Reply: 429
Quoted from Grim74
It’s not that they’re swinging to the right or even the extreme right that’s just MSM leftie mantra you are gobbling on, the problem is that the party is stuffed full with EUrophile red Tory’s, get rid of these idiots like Rory Stewart FFS and the party can start being Conservative again and listening to the DEMOCRATIC will of the English people.


Corrected for you. And not the English people who are just coming onto the electoral role at 18 either. We've all been lied to, there's no doubt about that. Brexit cannot and could never, happen in the way in the way Farage has wet dreams about, and the Union preserved at the same time. RoI and Northern Ireland didn't vote for Brexit so why should they have a border when the Good Friday Agreement says there shouldn't be a border. The only Brexit that there can be with preservation of the United Kingdom is a Norway +. For a Farage Brexit there needs to be another referendum, but this time it needs to called the English independence referendum - that wasn't on the ballot paper last time...

Posted by: Grim74, May 29, 2019, 6:32pm; Reply: 430
Quoted from Limerick Mariner


Corrected for you. And not the English people who are just coming onto the electoral role at 18 either. We've all been lied to, there's no doubt about that. Brexit cannot and could never, happen in the way in the way Farage has wet dreams about, and the Union preserved at the same time. RoI and Northern Ireland didn't vote for Brexit so why should they have a border when the Good Friday Agreement says there shouldn't be a border. The only Brexit that there can be with preservation of the United Kingdom is a Norway +. For a Farage Brexit there needs to be another referendum, but this time it needs to called the English independence referendum - that wasn't on the ballot paper last time...



flipping hells bells all together now for the dense amongst us 1,2,3.............  it was a UK referendum! The Jocks and half the northern Irish will just have to have a hard suck on democracy we voted as a nation deal with it.
Of course Brexit could happen what a stupid defeatist comment spoken like a true London centric anti British alien! To paraphrase a strong true leader “ we tell the EU we are leaving in October the door is open if you want to talk a trade deal, if we don’t hear from you we are gone”  easy as that. Only a weak, submissive, dim-witted sham of a leader would take no deal of the table, any half decent businessman would tell you that.

Bollox to Norway + bollox to another referendum, bollox to compromise  and bollox to anti-British shithole London, we are the greatest country in the world and we will call the shots, sick of hearing quisling leftie gutless remoaners putting this amazing nation down absolute traitors, in a near perfect world I’d have treason laws back in place for people like you then round up and have shot vince cable and his treacherous mob.
Posted by: grimsby pete, May 29, 2019, 7:08pm; Reply: 431
Who wants a border in Ireland not us its the EU wanting to check what we might be sending into the Republic. As Grim pointed out we are the United Kingdom and even some area's in England voted to remain but as the UK  as a whole voted out there will be some remoaners harping on about another vote.

We are not having one but if we did the result would be the same just except it.
Posted by: Marinerz93, May 29, 2019, 8:02pm; Reply: 432
Quoted from grimsby pete
Who wants a border in Ireland not us its the EU wanting to check what we might be sending into the Republic. As Grim pointed out we are the United Kingdom and even some area's in England voted to remain but as the UK  as a whole voted out there will be some remoaners harping on about another vote.

We are not having one but if we did the result would be the same just except it.


Remoaners right now



Quick remoaners do your EU war dance.

Posted by: chaos33, May 29, 2019, 10:00pm; Reply: 433
Quoted from Marinerz93


Me with my mad pictures and you with your videos of Grim74 at home, you call me childish, you sit aloft in your ivory tower looking down on everyone else who has a different view to you yours, like most cry baby remoaners, (sad face) falling off a cliff Brexit.

I haven't used Tim Fallon as the Leader of the Lim Dems but that annoying cry baby face he used to pull when mentioning Brexit and falling off a cliff, Tim Fallon is the face of falling off a cliff Brexit (sad Brexit face)



The cons are in the main a Brexit Party as they triggered article 50 and have put forward plans for the deal, der. It's the remoaners from the other parties that are stopping democracy and those Brexiteers within the Cons who would rather have a no deal with the league of remoaners from other parties.

Come back with some real stats including how many people overall in the UK voted for the Brexit party but you won't will you. Below is North East Lincs results, Brexit parties well in the lead.



North East Lincolnshire results
Change UK – The Independent Group: 871 (2.67%)

Conservative and Unionist Party: 3,224 (9.9%)

English Democrats: 445 (1.37%)

Green Party: 2,370 (7.28%)

Labour Party: 3,444 (10.58%)

Liberal Democrats: 2,916 (8.95%)

The Brexit Party: 16,895 (51.88%)

The Yorkshire Party: 168 (0.52%)

UK Independence Party (UKIP): 2,234 (6.86%)

Total votes counted: 32,567

Electorate: 114,382

Turnout: 28.7%

The Brexit party didn't exist 6 weeks ago, it has just knocked out all the major players in politics, had this been a remoaners party you would have wet your pants and be doing your EU war dance outside the Town hall.



Who is Tim Fallon?

Posted by: chaos33, May 29, 2019, 10:14pm; Reply: 434
Now, I'm no Tony Blair fan. Far from it, but if you listen carefully to this whole interview, there is an awful lot of sense in here. If not sense, then fact.

This country faces a new binary choice. This is a reality. A no deal brexit, or to remain. There is no compromise.
I think it's absolutely self evident what we should do, but the issue we have now is related to what the two major parties do next.

There is an absolutely key point at 8:09.

Posted by: Marinerz93, May 30, 2019, 5:47pm; Reply: 435
Quoted from chaos33


Who is Tim Fallon?



Tim Farron, my bad, I blame Brexit.  ;D
Posted by: lew chaterleys lover, May 30, 2019, 8:46pm; Reply: 436
Quoted from Limerick Mariner


Corrected for you. And not the English people who are just coming onto the electoral role at 18 either. We've all been lied to, there's no doubt about that. Brexit cannot and could never, happen in the way in the way Farage has wet dreams about, and the Union preserved at the same time. RoI and Northern Ireland didn't vote for Brexit so why should they have a border when the Good Friday Agreement says there shouldn't be a border. The only Brexit that there can be with preservation of the United Kingdom is a Norway +. For a Farage Brexit there needs to be another referendum, but this time it needs to called the English independence referendum - that wasn't on the ballot paper last time...



We were not lied to.

An independent self governing country can do anything it likes; in any event the EU say they wont put up a border, we won't put up a border and Ireland wont put up a border.

We voted to leave by a substantial majority and that means leaving all the institutions of the EU - or what you would presumably call a "Farage Brexit"

It was a UK wide referendum by the way.
Posted by: lew chaterleys lover, May 30, 2019, 8:49pm; Reply: 437
Quoted from The Old Codger
40% voted for Remain parties, 35% voted for Brexit parties, 25% voted Labour Tory. Just underlines how split the country is.

The next PM will be chosen by 320 Tory MPs and then 160,000 Tory subscribers and will then, probably, be kicked out by a vote of no confidence and we end up with a GE, probably another hung Parliament and we go round in ever decreasing circles.

What a mess!


That is simply an outright lie. Both the Conservative and Labour parties policies is to deliver Brexit for a start so a substantial number of their votes will support Brexit . Some of the Lib Dem votes will be for other things rather than Brexit; ditto with the Green party.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, May 30, 2019, 9:23pm; Reply: 438
I've come to the conclusion that the only way this will ever be resolved is if the conservatives elect a hardline brexiteer (hopefully that girl private Boris) and they push through a no deal Brexit. Then the utter excrement-show that will follow will ensure that right wing politics and the deluded nationalists live in shame for the rest of time.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, May 30, 2019, 9:33pm; Reply: 439
Quoted from Grim74
It’s not that they’re swinging to the right or even the extreme right that’s just MSM leftie mantra you are gobbling on, the problem is that the party is stuffed full with EUrophile red Tory’s, get rid of these idiots like Rory Stewart FFS and the party can start being Conservative again and listening to the DEMOCRATIC will of the people.


Out of interest how would you counter the arguments Rory Stewart makes in this video?
Posted by: mariner91, May 30, 2019, 10:30pm; Reply: 440


That is simply an outright lie. Both the Conservative and Labour parties policies is to deliver Brexit for a start so a substantial number of their votes will support Brexit . Some of the Lib Dem votes will be for other things rather than Brexit; ditto with the Green party.


They gained 20% more of the vote between them than they did last time, I bet most who voted for them didn’t even know any other policies they had.
Posted by: Rodley Mariner, May 30, 2019, 10:43pm; Reply: 441
Rory Stewart comes across as a pretty moderate and sensible, pragmatic politician. No place for that in British politics at the moment is there?
Posted by: Bawmariner, May 30, 2019, 10:54pm; Reply: 442


We were not lied to.

An independent self governing country can do anything it likes; in any event the EU say they wont put up a border, we won't put up a border and Ireland wont put up a border.

We voted to leave by a substantial majority and that means leaving all the institutions of the EU - or what you would presumably call a "Farage Brexit"

It was a UK wide referendum by the way.


Unfortunately an independent nation can't just do what it wants. If we don't put customs checks on EU goods coming from via Ireland we can't put custom checks on any country in the world so we leave ourselves open to poor quality goods being imported.

If we don't put tariffs on goods such as steel from the EU. We can't put tariffs on rediculously cheap steel from China. This would be another knife in the back for Scunthorpe.

It really isn't simple. If we leave the EU we have to abide by rules still. The WTO makes sure of that. They are less stringent but still exist.

I really think there were legitimate reasons to vote leave but no deal really is a crazy idea. It would leave us in a huge state of limbo with very few cards to play. The EU will definitely lose out from no deal Brexir but countries like Germany will still have 70 counties to sell goods to tariff free. The UK would have around 10 with the current number of trade deals signed. Just on population the UK represnts a market of 65 million which a country like Germany will no longer have tariff free access to but the UK loses access to a market of 430 million people.

It does look like the choice will come down to no deal vs remain. I hope when this time comes, politicians are honest with the general population about the consequences of a no deal option.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, May 31, 2019, 7:12am; Reply: 443
Quoted from Bawmariner

It does look like the choice will come down to no deal vs remain. I hope when this time comes, politicians are honest with the general population about the consequences of a no deal option.


I think there are lots of politicians that are being honest about the consequences of no deal, but they are just being shouted down as remoaners or scaremongers. There is no persuading brexiteers I'm afraid, so we are going to have to live through it until the penny drops and we go back cap in hand to the EU in 7-10 years time. I bet any money that the brexit supporters will be the first to blame politicians for not explaining the consequences when the true reality hits their pocket.


Posted by: Grim74, May 31, 2019, 9:55am; Reply: 444
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby


Out of interest how would you counter the arguments Rory Stewart makes in this video?


Staunch defender of May’s surrender deal! Wants a national slogan of ‘just get on with it’ and how you going to get on with it Rory?
‘Oh a people’s assembly of 500 people’ WTF

Asked on question time last night what if the 500 hundred  majority vote for no deal then what Rory? .....urm ......urm

The man is a clown who shouldn’t be anywhere near government.
Posted by: Limerick Mariner, May 31, 2019, 11:53am; Reply: 445
Quoted from Bawmariner


Unfortunately an independent nation can't just do what it wants. If we don't put customs checks on EU goods coming from via Ireland we can't put custom checks on any country in the world so we leave ourselves open to poor quality goods being imported.

If we don't put tariffs on goods such as steel from the EU. We can't put tariffs on rediculously cheap steel from China. This would be another knife in the back for Scunthorpe.

It really isn't simple. If we leave the EU we have to abide by rules still. The WTO makes sure of that. They are less stringent but still exist.

I really think there were legitimate reasons to vote leave but no deal really is a crazy idea. It would leave us in a huge state of limbo with very few cards to play. The EU will definitely lose out from no deal Brexir but countries like Germany will still have 70 counties to sell goods to tariff free. The UK would have around 10 with the current number of trade deals signed. Just on population the UK represnts a market of 65 million which a country like Germany will no longer have tariff free access to but the UK loses access to a market of 430 million people.

It does look like the choice will come down to no deal vs remain. I hope when this time comes, politicians are honest with the general population about the consequences of a no deal option.


The pre-referendum lie by Cameron et al was that the UK would leave the customs union and single market if the vote was leave, with the implication that this would be a straight forward process. Not a duplicitous lie, they just hadn't thought through the consequences for the Good Friday Agreement, probably because they thought the vote would be remain. Out of any country in Europe, a UK departure is probably the most complicated - it's in the name - we are a united kingdom of 4 nations, with some different laws in N Ireland and Scotland. N.Ireland and Scotland were never going to vote for Brexit and the majorities for Remain were much bigger than the overall leave majority. Tony Blair actually flagged the NI issue pre-referendum and the UK government ignored it and then May stupidly created her red lines that exacerbated the issue. Millions of people voted for Brexit because of the impact of austerity and seeing Polish people ahead of them in the queue at A and E or the doctor's surgery, or for jobs on building sites. Pre-referendum, millions of people who voted leave did not give a flying feck about being in a customs union, they'd never heard of it and didn't have clue what it is. Now we have government in cahoots with a bunch of religous fascists who don't represent the majority view in Northern Ireland and garner votes by historical scaremongering about invasion by papists. Moderate unionist opinion in NI has created a potential majority for a united Ireland. That will be eventual outcome of no-deal. May twigged this too late and that's why she is now firmly in the anti-no-deal camp.
Posted by: grimsby pete, May 31, 2019, 3:12pm; Reply: 446
Brexit is like our new stadium ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN !!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Ipswin, May 31, 2019, 3:48pm; Reply: 447
Quoted from grimsby pete
Brexit is like our new stadium ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN !!!!!!!!!!


I hope your right Pete, that would almost be as good as a new stadium.

Posted by: Grim74, June 2, 2019, 8:49am; Reply: 448
Tweet 1134858538533216256 will appear here...


Dangerous fantasy they told us 😕
Posted by: barralad, June 2, 2019, 10:53am; Reply: 449
Quoted from Grim74
Tweet 1134858538533216256 will appear here...


Dangerous fantasy they told us 😕


In the interests of veracity this video is over two years old.
Posted by: Grim74, June 2, 2019, 6:54pm; Reply: 450
Tweet 1128340582189936640 will appear here...
Posted by: Grim74, June 2, 2019, 6:55pm; Reply: 451
May 14th Mogherini confirms that implementation is proceeding well and by June all should be official...... dangerous fantasy.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 5, 2019, 8:26am; Reply: 452
https://fullfact.org/europe/hunt-eu-army/

Posted by: Town Monkey, June 5, 2019, 12:45pm; Reply: 453
Damn you and your facts, Bobby!   ;)

It's almost as if "Project Fear" has been perpetrated by both sides of the debate!
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 5, 2019, 1:33pm; Reply: 454
Quoted from Town Monkey
Damn you and your facts, Bobby!   ;)

It's almost as if "Project Fear" has been perpetrated by both sides of the debate!


I know! It must be that the fullfact.org website is definitely wrong or is being funded by remainers and/or is therefore a disreputable source. I can't believe for a minute that any brexiteer would keep peddling a scare story that they know to be completely without foundation..
Posted by: Marinerz93, June 5, 2019, 7:18pm; Reply: 455
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby


I know! It must be that the fullfact.org website is definitely wrong or is being funded by remainers and/or is therefore a disreputable source. I can't believe for a minute that any brexiteer would keep peddling a scare story that they know to be completely without foundation..


Posted by: Grim74, June 5, 2019, 8:20pm; Reply: 456
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby


I know! It must be that the fullfact.org website is definitely wrong or is being funded by remainers and/or is therefore a disreputable source. I can't believe for a minute that any brexiteer would keep peddling a scare story that they know to be completely without foundation..


Whoops think you need to check the date! A lot has changed in the 3 years since.😆
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 6, 2019, 7:42am; Reply: 457
Quoted from Grim74


Whoops think you need to check the date! A lot has changed in the 3 years since.😆


I've been through this routine before with Marinerz - nothing has changed in relation to the article I posted. However, here is a newer article to prove it - https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/

The salient point is "UK law also states that no such common EU defence powers can be handed from the UK to the EU without the approval of parliament and a referendum on the decision.."

Posted by: Manchester Mariner, June 6, 2019, 9:04am; Reply: 458
As Michael "Tree frog trying to escape from a scrotum(c)" Gove once said, "People in this country have had enough of experts" same goes for facts.

(c) Frankie Boyle.
Posted by: Grim74, June 6, 2019, 2:18pm; Reply: 459
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby


I've been through this routine before with Marinerz - nothing has changed in relation to the article I posted. However, here is a newer article to prove it - https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/

The salient point is "UK law also states that no such common EU defence powers can be handed from the UK to the EU without the approval of parliament and a referendum on the decision.."



Prove? Doesn’t prove excrement they use a left wing, Guardian reading, EUrophile professor FFS
Look there’s no denying that the EU mafia want their own military power it’s on the record, bearing that we have already seen our troops being deployed wearing that disgraceful flag on their uniforms, the question to be asked is would you trust a labour or conservative government that’s stuffed full of quislings to actually Veto?  No me neither.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 7, 2019, 7:19am; Reply: 460
Quoted from Grim74


Prove? Doesn’t prove excrement they use a left wing, Guardian reading, EUrophile professor FFS
Look there’s no denying that the EU mafia want their own military power it’s on the record, bearing that we have already seen our troops being deployed wearing that disgraceful flag on their uniforms, the question to be asked is would you trust a labour or conservative government that’s stuffed full of quislings to actually Veto?  No me neither.


So now UK law doesn't prove excrement!
(clap2)

You will literally say anything to ignore the truth.

Since you are so paranoid, I would suggest that there is a much higher chance that we end up re-joining the Eu after 5-7 years of leaving with no-deal, and when we re-join we will lose all the vetos we currently have including being in the Euro and any possible future EU Army.

Posted by: barralad, June 7, 2019, 9:34pm; Reply: 461
What's that dull thudding noise I can hear? Ah it's Roast Em Bobby banging his head on Grims wall  :)
Posted by: Grim74, June 8, 2019, 9:52am; Reply: 462
Quoted from barralad
What's that dull thudding noise I can hear? Ah it's Roast Em Bobby banging his head on Grims wall  :)


No it’s Your head banging on little Bobby’s navel.
Posted by: Marinerz93, June 8, 2019, 2:38pm; Reply: 463
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby


I've been through this routine before with Marinerz - nothing has changed in relation to the article I posted. However, here is a newer article to prove it - https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/

The salient point is "UK law also states that no such common EU defence powers can be handed from the UK to the EU without the approval of parliament and a referendum on the decision.."



Yes and you are still blinkered to the long term goals of those looking to create an EU army.  Eurocorps, get used to it. it is already here, with Merkel saying that would allows us to one day create a true European Army. Suck it up Europhile, they have plans and they don't need your permission, welcome to EU democracy, you could always vote against it or use that veto you bang on about.  ;D


https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/088137-000-A/a-european-army/
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 9, 2019, 7:25am; Reply: 464
Marinerz - I'm not blinkered, I agree that this is a long term goal of the EU. However, it is a fact that we have a veto and it is also a fact that we couldn't join an EU army without a separate UK referendum on this issue. In this reality, the chances of the UK being part of it are extremely remote.

I've got nothing against an EU Army personally. In a ratio of cost v level of protection I would expect it to be a far better option than trying to pretend (and fund) that we are a big player going forward on the international stage as a single UK (quite possibly only England & Wales within 10 years) ) entity.

I'd much rather be part of an EU Army than the 51st State Army of the USA.

The major economic and military giants going forward will be USA, Russia, China, (maybe India), and the EU. For me we would be far safer being a big fish in a small pond (as part of the EU) than being a tiny fish in a big pond.with no say or leverage in anything much at all.

But hey, that's just me thinking logically rather than having some kind of overblown little englander mentality. <insert stupid animated gif of men in silver battle armour with a st george cross on the front/>
Posted by: Grim74, June 9, 2019, 11:58am; Reply: 465
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
Marinerz - I'm not blinkered, I agree that this is a long term goal of the EU. However, it is a fact that we have a veto and it is also a fact that we couldn't join an EU army without a separate UK referendum on this issue. In this reality, the chances of the UK being part of it are extremely remote.

I've got nothing against an EU Army personally. In a ratio of cost v level of protection I would expect it to be a far better option than trying to pretend (and fund) that we are a big player going forward on the international stage as a single UK (quite possibly only England & Wales within 10 years) ) entity.

I'd much rather be part of an EU Army than the 51st State Army of the USA.

The major economic and military giants going forward will be USA, Russia, China, (maybe India), and the EU. For me we would be far safer being a big fish in a small pond (as part of the EU) than being a tiny fish in a big pond.with no say or leverage in anything much at all.

But hey, that's just me thinking logically rather than having some kind of overblown little englander mentality. <insert stupid animated gif of men in silver battle armour with a st george cross on the front/>


Well thank intercourse people like you were in a minority during the war years otherwise we’d all be goose stepping by now. Here’s an idea how about we get a leader who puts the country first, that inspires us to think big and to make a once proud nation to be great again. Not some quisling leader who collaborate’s with the EU into turning us into a mere puppet state ruled by unelected bureaucrats, with full control of a military power whilst poking a stick a Russia bollox to that.

How about instead remaining a sovereign nation with a military alliance with the worlds greatest super power? What’s wrong with that? I always see myself as English/British with a strong closeness to our America cousins no feelings on Europe either way just a nice place to go on holiday.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 9, 2019, 12:45pm; Reply: 466
I'm surprised your online to reply today. Imagined you'd be out in the countryside doing battle reenactments.
Posted by: grimsby pete, June 9, 2019, 12:56pm; Reply: 467
I don't think we will have a world war again but if we did I would rather we be on the USA side rather than the EU,

You might say we would all be on the same side but if a few countries leave NATO the USA might say sort it out yourself if Europe is ever attacked.

Again I say I do not think it will happen so why do we need yet another army?
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 9, 2019, 4:30pm; Reply: 468
America is one of the most copulated up countries in the world, with a political system that has been openly abused by those with the largest bank accounts. The republicans out there are a bunch of religious zealots - maybe the most dangerous people on earth in my opinion. They have an appalling track record when it comes to wars, as per Iraq which we got dragged into because of them, and people would rather be on their side than the Europeans?
Posted by: grimsby pete, June 9, 2019, 5:09pm; Reply: 469
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
America is one of the most copulated up countries in the world, with a political system that has been openly abused by those with the largest bank accounts. The republicans out there are a bunch of religious zealots - maybe the most dangerous people on earth in my opinion. They have an appalling track record when it comes to wars, as per Iraq which we got dragged into because of them, and people would rather be on their side than the Europeans?


The fire power and men of the USA or having an Italian or  Greek covering your back  (Confused)(Confused)

I think I would stick with the yanks thanks.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 9, 2019, 5:39pm; Reply: 470
Pete I think its more a case of what we would get dragged into by our partners rather than having our backs covered. Most wars nowadays are not about defending territory - they are politically motivated. America needs to go to war frequently in order to fund its arms industry, which coincidentally fund most republican presidential candidates. Won't be long before they attack Iran under some false pretense and we follow along like the little puppy dogs we are.
Posted by: grimsby pete, June 9, 2019, 8:40pm; Reply: 471
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
Pete I think its more a case of what we would get dragged into by our partners rather than having our backs covered. Most wars nowadays are not about defending territory - they are politically motivated. America needs to go to war frequently in order to fund its arms industry, which coincidentally fund most republican presidential candidates. Won't be long before they attack Iran under some false pretense and we follow along like the little puppy dogs we are.


I  agree to a certain extent Bobby but when comes to push I would still rather have the yanks  with me than an Italian or Greek.
Posted by: Grim74, June 9, 2019, 10:08pm; Reply: 472
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
America is one of the most copulated up countries in the world, with a political system that has been openly abused by those with the largest bank accounts. The republicans out there are a bunch of religious zealots - maybe the most dangerous people on earth in my opinion. They have an appalling track record when it comes to wars, as per Iraq which we got dragged into because of them, and people would rather be on their side than the Europeans?


https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/03/22/libya-and-the-myth-of-humanitarian-intervention/
Those pesky republicans......oh wait😳
Posted by: Grim74, June 9, 2019, 10:15pm; Reply: 473
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
Pete I think its more a case of what we would get dragged into by our partners rather than having our backs covered. Most wars nowadays are not about defending territory - they are politically motivated. America needs to go to war frequently in order to fund its arms industry, which coincidentally fund most republican presidential candidates. Won't be long before they attack Iran under some false pretense and we follow along like the little puppy dogs we are.


Check out the recent French war record then Bobby they seem to like a bit of conflict, even with their own people it seems not that you’d know it if you’re an MSM swallower.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 9, 2019, 10:57pm; Reply: 474
Even more reason not to continue cosying up the yanks then! Even the democrats are more right wing than what we would regard as right wing. You might feel an affinity to them but I certainly don't.

Who you backing in the tory leadership contest then? Is Esther McVey going to lead our great country back to greatness? Boris Johnson?
Posted by: codcheeky, June 11, 2019, 6:42am; Reply: 475
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
Even more reason not to continue cosying up the yanks then! Even the democrats are more right wing than what we would regard as right wing. You might feel an affinity to them but I certainly don't.

Who you backing in the tory leadership contest then? Is Esther McVey going to lead our great country back to greatness? Boris Johnson?


When you look at the candidates you realise how we ended up with the dreadful May, the list is so dire she would still have a good chance of winning if she stood again
Posted by: Grim74, June 11, 2019, 6:51am; Reply: 476
Quoted from codcheeky


When you look at the candidates you realise how we ended up with the dreadful May, the list is so dire she would still have a good chance of winning if she stood again


Absolutely! but the word ‘dire’ gets taken to an whole new level when you realise that May along with Brown who has been one of the worst PM’s in living memory, would stil be a hundred times over better than Corbyn.
Posted by: Marinerz93, June 11, 2019, 4:50pm; Reply: 477
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
Marinerz - I'm not blinkered, I agree that this is a long term goal of the EU. However, it is a fact that we have a veto and it is also a fact that we couldn't join an EU army without a separate UK referendum on this issue. In this reality, the chances of the UK being part of it are extremely remote.

I've got nothing against an EU Army personally. In a ratio of cost v level of protection I would expect it to be a far better option than trying to pretend (and fund) that we are a big player going forward on the international stage as a single UK (quite possibly only England & Wales within 10 years) ) entity.

I'd much rather be part of an EU Army than the 51st State Army of the USA.

The major economic and military giants going forward will be USA, Russia, China, (maybe India), and the EU. For me we would be far safer being a big fish in a small pond (as part of the EU) than being a tiny fish in a big pond.with no say or leverage in anything much at all.

But hey, that's just me thinking logically rather than having some kind of overblown little englander mentality. <insert stupid animated gif of men in silver battle armour with a st george cross on the front/>


How can you have logically have come to that conclusion, from the Eurocorps Rainbow Army colouring book. Comedy gold you accept it is a long term plan, just like all the other long term plans that went before and came to fruition. Tell me when we had a people's vote to be run by Brussels again, little Euorphile <insert stupid animated gif of Europhile in silver battle armour with EU stars on it and a white flag on the front/>

More comedy gold as you mention the EU as a military giant, some of the EU countries are not spending their agreed commitment to defence as per NATO, then all of a sudden you claim the EU will be a major military player, Your so far wide of the mark on this it clearly shows how deluded you really are.

I've worked with the yanks and some of the Euorpean forces and if you for one minute think we would be better with the Eurocorps than the yanks you must be so far up the EU's rear end you can't see day light, like a typical little remoaning Europhile. I can tell you from experience for all the faults of the Yanks they are far superior in weaponry, budgets and infrastructure. I know how limited we are as a force when I went to an operation in the desert and we were washing our clothes in buckets and getting washed out of mess tins whilst sleeping in canvas tents with no air conditioning. The yanks rock up with prefab accommodation that is air conditioned, washing machines, hair dressers and the sort of budget on daily rations we can only dream off then a load of lorries sound their horns as they roll into camp and bam, burger king, pizza hut and green bean and a multitude of other home comforts, like the flipping internet, whoop whoop. The EU rock up with next to near no gear with that look of I have no idea how I got here or what I am here for on their faces, that is except the French particularly the French Legionaries, wow fine dining like you would not believe and highly professional.

Never mind eh, you can join your other little europhiles doing your war dance, that'll have the Russians on the back foot as your Glorious Eurocorps Rainbow army fire their spud guns. Better still wave that piece of paper with your veto on it  ;D

Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 12, 2019, 7:48am; Reply: 478
Quoted from Marinerz93


How can you have logically have come to that conclusion, from the Eurocorps Rainbow Army colouring book. Comedy gold you accept it is a long term plan, just like all the other long term plans that went before and came to fruition. Tell me when we had a people's vote to be run by Brussels again, little Euorphile <insert stupid animated gif of Europhile in silver battle armour with EU stars on it and a white flag on the front/>

More comedy gold as you mention the EU as a military giant, some of the EU countries are not spending their agreed commitment to defence as per NATO, then all of a sudden you claim the EU will be a major military player, Your so far wide of the mark on this it clearly shows how deluded you really are.

I've worked with the yanks and some of the Euorpean forces and if you for one minute think we would be better with the Eurocorps than the yanks you must be so far up the EU's rear end you can't see day light, like a typical little remoaning Europhile. I can tell you from experience for all the faults of the Yanks they are far superior in weaponry, budgets and infrastructure. I know how limited we are as a force when I went to an operation in the desert and we were washing our clothes in buckets and getting washed out of mess tins whilst sleeping in canvas tents with no air conditioning. The yanks rock up with prefab accommodation that is air conditioned, washing machines, hair dressers and the sort of budget on daily rations we can only dream off then a load of lorries sound their horns as they roll into camp and bam, burger king, pizza hut and green bean and a multitude of other home comforts, like the flipping internet, whoop whoop. The EU rock up with next to near no gear with that look of I have no idea how I got here or what I am here for on their faces, that is except the French particularly the French Legionaries, wow fine dining like you would not believe and highly professional.

Never mind eh, you can join your other little europhiles doing your war dance, that'll have the Russians on the back foot as your Glorious Eurocorps Rainbow army fire their spud guns. Better still wave that piece of paper with your veto on it  ;D



I think you are getting a bit confused Marinerz93. Read what I said again very slowly. You are comparing what you have seen in the past with something that doesn't even exist and is extremely unlikely to happen in the future.

What part of "In English Law it states that we cannot join an EU Army without a separate referendum on that one issue" are you struggling to understand?

Did you have to take a job in the forces because you couldn't get one anywhere else?
Posted by: Grim74, June 12, 2019, 8:05am; Reply: 479
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby


I think you are getting a bit confused Marinerz93. Read what I said again very slowly. You are comparing what you have seen in the past with something that doesn't even exist and is extremely unlikely to happen in the future.

What part of "In English Law it states that we cannot join an EU Army without a separate referendum on that one issue" are you struggling to understand?

Did you have to take a job in the forces because you couldn't get one anywhere else?


Disgraceful 😠

Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 12, 2019, 6:25pm; Reply: 480
Quoted from Grim74


Disgraceful 😠



thought you'd be happy about that
Posted by: Marinerz93, June 12, 2019, 6:47pm; Reply: 481
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby


I think you are getting a bit confused Marinerz93. Read what I said again very slowly. You are comparing what you have seen in the past with something that doesn't even exist and is extremely unlikely to happen in the future.

What part of "In English Law it states that we cannot join an EU Army without a separate referendum on that one issue" are you struggling to understand?

Did you have to take a job in the forces because you couldn't get one anywhere else?


Just as extremely unlikely to happen like all our laws and regulations being made in another country were we have to obey or be fined. Did we have a referendum on the Maastricht treaty or Lisbon treaty, wakey wakey. I'll wave my veto on this white flag Mr Verhofstadt.

Just as extremely unlikely to be told how much fish we can catch.

The past is a geat indicator of what will happen, just like a few months ago all the remoaners saying there are no plans for an EU army it is just Breixteers fantasy it will never happen, and yet Eurocoprs have served in two operations in the name of the EU. So it is clear the confusion or ignorance is yours.

I took a job in the Forces because the main industry of this once great Town was subject to fishing quota's by non UK policy makers and the work in this town was non existent. I had plans of bettering myself both educationally and increase my employment opportunities so I joined the Forces. I learned a trade, Electrical Engineering. It's easy for someone like you to have a cheap go at anyone being in the forces but push comes to shove you are not the type of person anyone would want next to them in a trench.

I take it with your snidey remarks about the Forces you are an astronaut or brain surgeon.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 13, 2019, 7:40am; Reply: 482
I just think that anyone who joins the forces knowing they are taking orders from our shithouse politicians must be one can short of a 6 six pack - and you're living up to this sterotype with the nonsense you spout.

I can't wait for the brexiteer's savior Boris to be elected and then seeing him when the penny finally drops that what he promised in the referendum was a mirage.
Posted by: Marinerz93, June 13, 2019, 12:01pm; Reply: 483
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
I just think that anyone who joins the forces knowing they are taking orders from our shithouse politicians must be one can short of a 6 six pack - and you're living up to this sterotype with the nonsense you spout.

I can't wait for the brexiteer's savior Boris to be elected and then seeing him when the penny finally drops that what he promised in the referendum was a mirage.


Politicians you voted in, no doubt Europhile, maybe I am one can short of a six pack but you are definitely a six pack that is missing the plastic thing that holds it all together, as for spouting nonsense keep the comedy gold coming Europhile. Being in the Forces isn't just about taking orders but playing a bigger part in promoting Britain, a Force that can be depended on in time of national emergency, a Force that supports democracy and will fight to protect your whining and cry baby opinions even if they are self denigrating, and more importantly people who have volunteered so that people like you don't get conscripted as they do in other countries, maybe you'd prefer to be conscripted into your glorious Rainbow Eurocorps. You could do this brilliant job you have in the EU Army that enables you to look down on the rest of us minions, I notice you have gone all quiet on that Europhile. Quick do your EU war dance.



No more a mirage than the democracy from the EU, but still you have that veto, a veto that ironically is on a white flag.

The majority of politicians self absorbed idiots,  
Posted by: mariner91, June 13, 2019, 12:47pm; Reply: 484
I genuinely fear for your mental health. I don't have an issue with someone having a different opinion to mine but you spout manic drivel about quislings and europhiles on an almost daily basis and it's worrying.
Posted by: Marinerz93, June 13, 2019, 1:46pm; Reply: 485
Quoted from mariner91
I genuinely fear for your mental health. I don't have an issue with someone having a different opinion to mine but you spout manic drivel about quislings and europhiles on an almost daily basis and it's worrying.


Thank you for your concern, I was assessed at the end of 2005 after I had been in Afgan and Iraq. I was counselled for PTSD and I was again assessed before I left towards the end of 2012, clear of PTSD to a degree and mentally sound. When were you last checked.

You don't have an issue but quickly attack someone who does and you question my mental health, there is quite clearly some insanity on both sides of the divide, Remoaners have their views and Brexiteers have theirs but don't come all over as if you are on the fence when in past posts you have stapled your colours to the EU mast.

There are pro's and cons to leave and remain. I see a brighter future outside the EU, you and your fellow Europhiles want more of the same and whatever the EU decides you'll suck it up because that's how you like it and fair play to you if that's how you want it.

I don't believe I have mentioned anything in past posts about traitors as you claim above however I do see remoaners as cry baby, anti democratic surrender monkeys.
Posted by: mariner91, June 13, 2019, 6:42pm; Reply: 486
Quoted from Marinerz93


Thank you for your concern, I was assessed at the end of 2005 after I had been in Afgan and Iraq. I was counselled for PTSD and I was again assessed before I left towards the end of 2012, clear of PTSD to a degree and mentally sound. When were you last checked.

You don't have an issue but quickly attack someone who does and you question my mental health, there is quite clearly some insanity on both sides of the divide, Remoaners have their views and Brexiteers have theirs but don't come all over as if you are on the fence when in past posts you have stapled your colours to the EU mast.

There are pro's and cons to leave and remain. I see a brighter future outside the EU, you and your fellow Europhiles want more of the same and whatever the EU decides you'll suck it up because that's how you like it and fair play to you if that's how you want it.

I don't believe I have mentioned anything in past posts about traitors as you claim above however I do see remoaners as cry baby, anti democratic surrender monkeys.


Sort of proving my point with the usual bizarrely vitriolic and childish namecalling. I have made no secret of the fact that I think we should remain in the EU. But I generally don't respond to the people who disagree with me in the same sort of way you do. I have never had my mental health checked, perhaps I should, but I also don't post inane "funny" pictures repeatedly and go on rants such as these:

"And whilst your hating democracy, and full of self loathing why don't go go and apologise to the jocks."

"And the clip is your typical left wing social bed wetting cry baby remainer, most likely touched a nerve with you and your tender fweelings have made you so offended, outraged you do your EU war dance whilst 'crying lifes so unfair'

Here have some fake tears to go with your self loathing."


"Of course it upsets you, and your overly sensitive far left fweelings, shocked at the truth and realisation that people are getting fed up with the illiberal ways of you Antifistas, falling over yourselves to say sorry for anything and everything regardless how something happened. It's sad to see so many people with such weak minds willing to sacrifice those brave soldiers and their fight for life against over whelming odds, for bloody Sunday there is a Defence of Rorke's Drift, except those Para's didn't face spears but bricks, bottles and bullets.

Go cry in your Pumkin latte, Unhappy the land that is in need of heroes and it's those hero's who save the likes of you from conscription."

"In a way I'm glad you lot slagging the forces off never served because holy dog excrement we'd all be speaking German and you wouldn't have to come on here whilst sitting in your cum, urine and excrement stained pants boo hooing about how a Nazi salute is done. Oooooh your so outraged I can hear the whining from here, remember to lube that hand, you don't want to get friction burns on that self-righteous beating your going to give that stump you always have in your hand whilst being a social bedwetter on social media. You should bottle your cry baby tears, I bet they taste so sweet."

If I was reading these from the outside, not knowing the context of the argument, as well as seeing the litany of pictures then I would be concerned. You can call it an attack if you like, that certainly isn't the intention, but the bile and absurdity which you post in response to people who disagree with you is extremely worrying.
Posted by: LH, June 13, 2019, 6:54pm; Reply: 487
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
I just think that anyone who joins the forces knowing they are taking orders from our shithouse politicians must be one can short of a 6 six pack - and you're living up to this sterotype with the nonsense you spout.

I can't wait for the brexiteer's savior Boris to be elected and then seeing him when the penny finally drops that what he promised in the referendum was a mirage.


Oi! We’re not all bad.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 13, 2019, 6:55pm; Reply: 488
I think he might have a point Marinerz
Posted by: Grim74, June 13, 2019, 7:09pm; Reply: 489
These self righteous fornicators have no respect for alternative opinions or even democracy, when it doesn’t go there way all the do is criticise and cry like little flipping babies 😢 This country is not divided by politics it’s divided by these twits who mainly left wing just cannot accept a democratic decision. Trump wins they 😢 and protest, Conservatives win they 😢and protest, Brexit wins they 😢 and protest!

What’s wrong with them it wasn’t like this 20 years ago.
I wasn’t happy whilst over in Florida at the time Obama came into power and I didnt see republicans protesting and rioting, When the war criminal Blair held onto power for the 3rd time I remember being drunk off but I certainly accepted democracy, I don’t recall the right taking the kids to the streets holding placards saying intercourse off Blair and defacing statues. If the EU referendum vote had gone the other way there wouldn’t of been mass protests of any kind it would of just been accepted.

I’ve now reached the point where instead of getting wound up with these lefty mongs  especially the Europhile lickspittle’s I just laugh at them, especially now there is a conservative leader election and there is intercourse all they can do about it except 😢 like a female dog. Little bobby you asked me who I would like to win and I’m happy to tell you it’s Boris and that’s not because I think he’s this great leader truth be known I don’t trust the girl private, but I want him to win so I can sit back on my sun lounger in Corfu and think of all the Corbyrnista’s, Guardianista’s, channel 4 news, the BBC and all the rest of the smelly,swampy,left wing girls privates crying and crying and arranging their sad little protests 😂😂😂
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 13, 2019, 8:06pm; Reply: 490
Quoted from Grim74
These self righteous fornicators have no respect for alternative opinions or even democracy, when it doesn’t go there way all the do is criticise and cry like little flipping babies 😢 This country is not divided by politics it’s divided by these twits who mainly left wing just cannot accept a democratic decision. Trump wins they 😢 and protest, Conservatives win they 😢and protest, Brexit wins they 😢 and protest!

What’s wrong with them it wasn’t like this 20 years ago.
I wasn’t happy whilst over in Florida at the time Obama came into power and I didnt see republicans protesting and rioting, When the war criminal Blair held onto power for the 3rd time I remember being drunk off but I certainly accepted democracy, I don’t recall the right taking the kids to the streets holding placards saying intercourse off Blair and defacing statues. If the EU referendum vote had gone the other way there wouldn’t of been mass protests of any kind it would of just been accepted.

I’ve now reached the point where instead of getting wound up with these lefty mongs  especially the Europhile lickspittle’s I just laugh at them, especially now there is a conservative leader election and there is intercourse all they can do about it except 😢 like a female dog. Little bobby you asked me who I would like to win and I’m happy to tell you it’s Boris and that’s not because I think he’s this great leader truth be known I don’t trust the girl private, but I want him to win so I can sit back on my sun lounger in Corfu and think of all the Corbyrnista’s, Guardianista’s, channel 4 news, the BBC and all the rest of the smelly,swampy,left wing girls privates crying and crying and arranging their sad little protests 😂😂😂


Very good Mr Union Jack pants - made me laugh :) You're only problem here is that everything you think you are going to get from Brexit is going to be exposed as a lie.  
Posted by: Grim74, June 13, 2019, 9:06pm; Reply: 491
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby


Very good Mr Union Jack pants - made me laugh :) You're only problem here is that everything you think you are going to get from Brexit is going to be exposed as a lie.  


What like the 1975 common market referendum? the biggest lie since Mary of Nazereth fell pregnant.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 13, 2019, 10:39pm; Reply: 492
We will see won’t we. I’ve got a feeling that this time next year you’ll be like that Iraqi general saying there are no bombs going off as they are landing behind him.
Posted by: Bawmariner, June 14, 2019, 8:42am; Reply: 493
Quoted from Grim74


What like the 1975 common market referendum? the biggest lie since Mary of Nazereth fell pregnant.


Yet in that referendum we voted to stay in a customs union but now according to the lead brexiters we voted to leave that to.

People spouting off about how remainers are anti democratic need to get a grip. There is a lot hypocrisy on both side of the debate and people who are being anti-democratic on both sides of the debate (Suspending parliment to stop votes is hugely democratic).

I do think remainers have been practically ignored in the whole debate since the referendum. Politicians have a duty to listen to the 17 million that voted leave but also the 16 million that voted remain. They also have a duty to the other 25 million people in this country who didn't or couldn't vote. Most of those who didn't vote probably don't care about brexit as long as it doesn't overly affect their lives. A no deal brexit would affect everbodies lives so I don't see that as being a sensible option.

I'm a pretty staunch remainer and would rather we stayed in the EU. I think freedom of movement is great especially after having to apply for a russian visa the other week. I like how I can now use my phone data across the EU. My girlfriend got appendicitis in Estonia. Thanks to the EHIC the operation and hospital stay cost her 5 euros. I think the EU has done plenty of good things and has the capacity to do more. I'm particularly keen on a europe wide high, medium and low coporation tax of 20%, 25%, 30% so countries stop cutting taxes to attract business and instead compete on things that improve economic performance such as good infrastructure and education systems.

Despite the disappointment of leaving, I would accept it with certain conditions (Compromises which reflect how close the vote was). I'd broadly keep mays deal but with a customs union (like the one we have been in with the EU since the 1970s) and I would also like the ability to pay into the EU budget to keep my european citizenship and freedom of movement. I was born a european citizen and therefore do not believe I should be stripped of this. Additionally environmental and workers protections should legally be made to match or better EU standards.

This deal would likely make both sides mildy unhappy but the alternative is we leave without a deal and urine off half of the population or we remain and urine off half the population. The compromise must happen.
Posted by: Ipswin, June 14, 2019, 10:35am; Reply: 494
Quoted from Bawmariner


Yet in that referendum we voted to stay in a customs union but now according to the lead brexiters we voted to leave that to.

People spouting off about how remainers are anti democratic need to get a grip. There is a lot hypocrisy on both side of the debate and people who are being anti-democratic on both sides of the debate (Suspending parliment to stop votes is hugely democratic).

I do think remainers have been practically ignored in the whole debate since the referendum. Politicians have a duty to listen to the 17 million that voted leave but also the 16 million that voted remain. They also have a duty to the other 25 million people in this country who didn't or couldn't vote. Most of those who didn't vote probably don't care about brexit as long as it doesn't overly affect their lives. A no deal brexit would affect everbodies lives so I don't see that as being a sensible option.

I'm a pretty staunch remainer and would rather we stayed in the EU. I think freedom of movement is great especially after having to apply for a russian visa the other week. I like how I can now use my phone data across the EU. My girlfriend got appendicitis in Estonia. Thanks to the EHIC the operation and hospital stay cost her 5 euros. I think the EU has done plenty of good things and has the capacity to do more. I'm particularly keen on a europe wide high, medium and low coporation tax of 20%, 25%, 30% so countries stop cutting taxes to attract business and instead compete on things that improve economic performance such as good infrastructure and education systems.

Despite the disappointment of leaving, I would accept it with certain conditions (Compromises which reflect how close the vote was). I'd broadly keep mays deal but with a customs union (like the one we have been in with the EU since the 1970s) and I would also like the ability to pay into the EU budget to keep my european citizenship and freedom of movement. I was born a european citizen and therefore do not believe I should be stripped of this. Additionally environmental and workers protections should legally be made to match or better EU standards.

This deal would likely make both sides mildy unhappy but the alternative is we leave without a deal and urine off half of the population or we remain and urine off half the population. The compromise must happen.


Great post

Posted by: barralad, June 14, 2019, 11:30am; Reply: 495
Quoted from Bawmariner


Yet in that referendum we voted to stay in a customs union but now according to the lead brexiters we voted to leave that to.

People spouting off about how remainers are anti democratic need to get a grip. There is a lot hypocrisy on both side of the debate and people who are being anti-democratic on both sides of the debate (Suspending parliment to stop votes is hugely democratic).

I do think remainers have been practically ignored in the whole debate since the referendum. Politicians have a duty to listen to the 17 million that voted leave but also the 16 million that voted remain. They also have a duty to the other 25 million people in this country who didn't or couldn't vote. Most of those who didn't vote probably don't care about brexit as long as it doesn't overly affect their lives. A no deal brexit would affect everbodies lives so I don't see that as being a sensible option.

I'm a pretty staunch remainer and would rather we stayed in the EU. I think freedom of movement is great especially after having to apply for a russian visa the other week. I like how I can now use my phone data across the EU. My girlfriend got appendicitis in Estonia. Thanks to the EHIC the operation and hospital stay cost her 5 euros. I think the EU has done plenty of good things and has the capacity to do more. I'm particularly keen on a europe wide high, medium and low coporation tax of 20%, 25%, 30% so countries stop cutting taxes to attract business and instead compete on things that improve economic performance such as good infrastructure and education systems.

Despite the disappointment of leaving, I would accept it with certain conditions (Compromises which reflect how close the vote was). I'd broadly keep mays deal but with a customs union (like the one we have been in with the EU since the 1970s) and I would also like the ability to pay into the EU budget to keep my european citizenship and freedom of movement. I was born a european citizen and therefore do not believe I should be stripped of this. Additionally environmental and workers protections should legally be made to match or better EU standards.

This deal would likely make both sides mildy unhappy but the alternative is we leave without a deal and urine off half of the population or we remain and urine off half the population. The compromise must happen.


Excellent post. There are loads of so-called "remainers" such as myself who are prepared to accept the democratic vote but that doesn't mean hurtling off a cliff. May royally bugg*red up the negotiations with her ridiculous red lines and utterly wasted (with the help of the terminally incompetent Davis) the period from the referendum to March 19. The idea that Farage (rhymes with garage) would have meekly accepted a vote for Remain that had been so close is a giant leap into the land of fairy tales where Leavers are the only good guys. On referendum night before it was clear that Leave could actually win he was hawking himself round t.v. stations claiming it was a fix.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, June 14, 2019, 1:29pm; Reply: 496
Quoted from Grim74


What like the 1975 common market referendum? the biggest lie since Mary of Nazereth fell pregnant.


So you mean she wasn't pregnant after all?

Sounds a bit like the speculation I've seen about that Shamima Begum and her pregnancy.... ;)
Posted by: Marinerz93, June 14, 2019, 4:56pm; Reply: 497
Quoted from mariner91


Sort of proving my point with the usual bizarrely vitriolic and childish namecalling. I have made no secret of the fact that I think we should remain in the EU. But I generally don't respond to the people who disagree with me in the same sort of way you do. I have never had my mental health checked, perhaps I should, but I also don't post inane "funny" pictures repeatedly and go on rants such as these:

"And whilst your hating democracy, and full of self loathing why don't go go and apologise to the jocks."

"And the clip is your typical left wing social bed wetting cry baby remainer, most likely touched a nerve with you and your tender fweelings have made you so offended, outraged you do your EU war dance whilst 'crying lifes so unfair'

Here have some fake tears to go with your self loathing."


"Of course it upsets you, and your overly sensitive far left fweelings, shocked at the truth and realisation that people are getting fed up with the illiberal ways of you Antifistas, falling over yourselves to say sorry for anything and everything regardless how something happened. It's sad to see so many people with such weak minds willing to sacrifice those brave soldiers and their fight for life against over whelming odds, for bloody Sunday there is a Defence of Rorke's Drift, except those Para's didn't face spears but bricks, bottles and bullets.

Go cry in your Pumkin latte, Unhappy the land that is in need of heroes and it's those hero's who save the likes of you from conscription."

"In a way I'm glad you lot slagging the forces off never served because holy dog excrement we'd all be speaking German and you wouldn't have to come on here whilst sitting in your cum, urine and excrement stained pants boo hooing about how a Nazi salute is done. Oooooh your so outraged I can hear the whining from here, remember to lube that hand, you don't want to get friction burns on that self-righteous beating your going to give that stump you always have in your hand whilst being a social bedwetter on social media. You should bottle your cry baby tears, I bet they taste so sweet."

If I was reading these from the outside, not knowing the context of the argument, as well as seeing the litany of pictures then I would be concerned. You can call it an attack if you like, that certainly isn't the intention, but the bile and absurdity which you post in response to people who disagree with you is extremely worrying.


You are reading the posts from your own point of view, it has sweet FA about if you were a neutral from the outside because you aren't.

Anyone who reads what is on here from outside will have the context and won't necessarily have your biased narrow point of view. If you are going to take snipets of my replies to other posts why don't you put that post in I was replying to, you know for context  ;D.Others looking in may love the animated gifs and pictures and see there is a lighter side to this debate but remoaners are sucking the life out of everything, joyless mood hovers who are crying because they didn't win, boo hoo, it's not fair, boo hoo.

Remoaners have been putting down those who voted to leave since the result was first announced, I don't see you highlighting any of that, but there again why would you.

  
Posted by: mariner91, June 14, 2019, 5:20pm; Reply: 498
Doesn’t need the other posts for context, nobody else posts things that are as weirdly vitriolic and odd. There’s a real difference between putting someone down and saying some of the perverse things you say but if you don’t see that then that’s quite telling.
Posted by: Marinerz93, June 14, 2019, 6:57pm; Reply: 499
Quoted from mariner91
Doesn’t need the other posts for context, nobody else posts things that are as weirdly vitriolic and odd. There’s a real difference between putting someone down and saying some of the perverse things you say but if you don’t see that then that’s quite telling.


So you take snipets then say you don't need other posts for context, hmmm ok. Oh and you missed some off some of the animated gifs I posted for hilarity, mood hoover.

Quite telling or more likely you are just an over sensitive remoaning cry baby, sorry I hurt your fweelings.

Posted by: mariner91, June 14, 2019, 8:06pm; Reply: 500
Yeah they’re hilarious mate, you’re supremely witty. And no, you don’t need context when someone posts stuff as weird as you do. You’ve not hurt my feelings at any point, I doubt you’ve hurt anyone’s as it’s an anonymous message board. If you honestly think some of the bile you post is in anyway normal for an adult then please get help.
Posted by: Marinerz93, June 14, 2019, 9:46pm; Reply: 501
Quoted from mariner91
Yeah they’re hilarious mate, you’re supremely witty. And no, you don’t need context when someone posts stuff as weird as you do. You’ve not hurt my feelings at any point, I doubt you’ve hurt anyone’s as it’s an anonymous message board. If you honestly think some of the bile you post is in anyway normal for an adult then please get help.


You need to get your mummy to order you some big boy trousers, I've seen far worse than I've posted, on here and on other messages boards, yet my posts are the only ones that upset your fragile fweelings. What would you know is normal for an adult is it the same opinion of, if you were an outsider looking in again ;D

So my replies to others posts don't need context because I post weird stuff, alrighty then.

  ;D
Posted by: Grim74, June 15, 2019, 2:30pm; Reply: 502
Quoted from Bawmariner



I do think remainers have been practically ignored in the whole debate since the referendum. Politicians have a duty to listen to the 17 million that voted leave but also the 16 million that voted remain. They also have a duty to the other 25 million people in this country who didn't or couldn't vote. Most of those who didn't vote probably don't care about brexit as long as it doesn't overly affect their lives. A no deal brexit would affect everbodies lives so I don't see that as being a sensible option.
. .


In response to the worse of your terrible post why is it soooo hard to grasp for you that implementing a democratic decision means the losers are not taken into account, Therresa May has proved this, if two of my kids want to go to the skate park and the other one wants the cinema then we’re going to the skate park end of it’s really that simple. I’m pleased to say the majority of the 16 million who lost with there vote like my wife are true democrats and now accept and want to get on with it, its the 😢 babies like you who are making this once great country a laughing stock.
Posted by: Grim74, June 15, 2019, 2:35pm; Reply: 503
Quoted from FishOutOfWater


So you mean she wasn't pregnant after all?

Sounds a bit like the speculation I've seen about that Shamima Begum and her pregnancy.... ;)


I’m talking about who put it there! Patrick.


Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 15, 2019, 3:10pm; Reply: 504
Quoted from Grim74


In response to the worse of your terrible post why is it soooo hard to grasp for you that implementing a democratic decision means the losers are not taken into account, Therresa May has proved this, if two of my kids want to go to the skate park and the other one wants the cinema then we’re going to the skate park end of it’s really that simple. I’m pleased to say the majority of the 16 million who lost with there vote like my wife are true democrats and now accept and want to get on with it, its the 😢 babies like you who are making this once great country a laughing stock.


If my kids voted to put their head in the oven, Id tell them no - that's stupid.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 15, 2019, 3:10pm; Reply: 505
Quoted from Grim74


In response to the worse of your terrible post why is it soooo hard to grasp for you that implementing a democratic decision means the losers are not taken into account, Therresa May has proved this, if two of my kids want to go to the skate park and the other one wants the cinema then we’re going to the skate park end of it’s really that simple. I’m pleased to say the majority of the 16 million who lost with there vote like my wife are true democrats and now accept and want to get on with it, its the 😢 babies like you who are making this once great country a laughing stock.


The fact is that people voted out of the EU and for a free trade deal with the EU (Farage, Johnson, Gove etc. all said this), not out with no deal at all. I think many remainers (including myself) would accept leaving the EU so long as a free trade deal (or as close as possible) was in place. Leaving with no deal would be a huge risk, there is lots of expert industry evidence to suggest this, and not a lot of evidence to refute it or back up how things would be better rather than worse. I accept there has been mis-information on both sides of the argument, so no one really truly knows the full extent of the risk, but for me its not worth taking such a big risk - because if it does go wrong it is likely to effect many peoples lives in a negative way. A sensible, pragmatic and patient approach is what is needed going forward so that we can leave with as little harm as possible to the country. Trying to play hard ball to appease the hard brexiteers is not going to get us anywhere.
Posted by: Grim74, June 15, 2019, 9:19pm; Reply: 506
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby


The fact is that people voted out of the EU and for a free trade deal with the EU (Farage, Johnson, Gove etc. all said this), not out with no deal at all. I think many remainers (including myself) would accept leaving the EU so long as a free trade deal (or as close as possible) was in place. Leaving with no deal would be a huge risk, there is lots of expert industry evidence to suggest this, and not a lot of evidence to refute it or back up how things would be better rather than worse. I accept there has been mis-information on both sides of the argument, so no one really truly knows the full extent of the risk, but for me its not worth taking such a big risk - because if it does go wrong it is likely to effect many peoples lives in a negative way. A sensible, pragmatic and patient approach is what is needed going forward so that we can leave with as little harm as possible to the country. Trying to play hard ball to appease the hard brexiteers is not going to get us anywhere.


Sensible post there Bobby but I would add that although the no deal scenario is best avoided for both parties it makes no sense at all to take it of the table during the negotiations, I’m no businessman but it’s plainly obvious that in doing so gives them the upper hand. The other thing to bear in mind is that the so-called experts predicting ‘harm to the country’ are the same so-called europhile experts that predicted financial Armageddon in the immediate aftermath of a vote leave from the EU, virtually everything they said has been proven wrong.

I’m a big believer in my country and I think we are still one of the greatest in the world I believe we would be ok with a no deal, currently the Eurozone is looking anything but stable and a no deal is the last thing they would want despite what Macron and his gangsters say, it’s time to hold our nerve and be prepared to walk away because it’s only when we do that the negotiations will get taken serious.
Posted by: Bawmariner, June 15, 2019, 11:56pm; Reply: 507
Quoted from Grim74


In response to the worse of your terrible post why is it soooo hard to grasp for you that implementing a democratic decision means the losers are not taken into account, Therresa May has proved this, if two of my kids want to go to the skate park and the other one wants the cinema then we’re going to the skate park end of it’s really that simple. I’m pleased to say the majority of the 16 million who lost with there vote like my wife are true democrats and now accept and want to get on with it, its the 😢 babies like you who are making this once great country a laughing stock.


I think you might prefer a Dictatorship if that's your view. One were the party wins (through a sham vote or militarily) provides their supporters with land and wealth while ignoring those (or worse) that didn't vote for them.

What you are talking about is a simple binary form of democracy. Unfortunately brexit isn't simple as proven by the past 3 years. I've never actually lived under a government I have voted for so I'm pretty used to "losing" and accepting the result. Although I didn't vote for my local MP she is still my local representative even though I "lost".

Now if we had elected a parliment based on the referndum vote and told them to implement it, brexiters would have a very slight majority. To pass a vote around 98% of the brexiters would have to agree with a brexit deal. Lets say 80% of brexiters are willing to accept a no deal brexit but the others brexiters did not vote for this and therefore side with a good majority of the remainers. We wouldn't leave. However, around 30% of remainers are willing to accept they '"lost" but will not accept a hard brexit. They talk to the 30% of brexiters that are willing to have a softer brexit and come up with a compromise. To summarise that, you can only ignore the "losers" when you have a large majority or when a very small majority agrees on absoultely every detail, if not you won't pass a deal. Parliment has shown this recently when brexiters voted against brexit.

As there would probably be consquences for not implementing the brexit vote, there will be consquences for ignoring, the predominantly young, well educated remain voters. Brexiters might not like experts but if the Doctors (mostly remain voters) decide they don't want to live in the UK anymore, I personally don't look forward to a non expert diagnosing my illness.
Posted by: Grim74, June 16, 2019, 7:52am; Reply: 508
Quoted from Bawmariner


I think you might prefer a Dictatorship if that's your view. One were the party wins (through a sham vote or militarily) provides their supporters with land and wealth while ignoring those (or worse) that didn't vote for them.

What you are talking about is a simple binary form of democracy. Unfortunately brexit isn't simple as proven by the past 3 years. I've never actually lived under a government I have voted for so I'm pretty used to "losing" and accepting the result. Although I didn't vote for my local MP she is still my local representative even though I "lost".

Now if we had elected a parliment based on the referndum vote and told them to implement it, brexiters would have a very slight majority. To pass a vote around 98% of the brexiters would have to agree with a brexit deal. Lets say 80% of brexiters are willing to accept a no deal brexit but the others brexiters did not voŵte for this and therefore side with a good majority of the remainers. We wouldn't leave. However, around 30% of remainers are willing to accept they '"lost" but will not accept a hard brexit. They talk to the 30% of brexiters that are willing to have a softer brexit and come up with a compromise. To summarise that, you can only ignore the "losers" when you have a large majority or when a very small majority agrees on absoultely every detail, if not you won't pass a deal. Parliment has shown this recently when brexiters voted against brexit.

As there would probably be consquences for not implementing the brexit vote, there will be consquences for ignoring, the predominantly young, well educated remain voters. Brexiters might not like experts but if the Doctors (mostly remain voters) decide they don't want to live in the UK anymore, I personally don't look forward to a non expert diagnosing my illness.


Load of waffle! All this hard Brexit nonsense was devised by the remoaners to sabotage the vote in the hope to force another vote or even cancel Brexit all together. Brexiteers didn’t vote to be half in half out, we voted to leave the corrupt union it’s laws and institutions to regain our sovereignty. I heard this constantly whilst visiting many houses a week whilst working in a town that voted overwhelmingly to leave, not once by the way did someone ever say to me ‘I want to leave so the NHS can have £350m a week’ again more BS.
Posted by: Bawmariner, June 16, 2019, 1:21pm; Reply: 509
Quoted from Grim74


Load of waffle! All this hard Brexit nonsense was devised by the remoaners to sabotage the vote in the hope to force another vote or even cancel Brexit all together. Brexiteers didn’t vote to be half in half out, we voted to leave the corrupt union it’s laws and institutions to regain our sovereignty. I heard this constantly whilst visiting many houses a week whilst working in a town that voted overwhelmingly to leave, not once by the way did someone ever say to me ‘I want to leave so the NHS can have £350m a week’ again more BS.


And I know young, intelligent people who voted for brexit on the day because they thought 'why not' in the ballot box. I'm not going to pretend I know what everyone who voted to leave voted for. You can't possibly know either. Even if you have talked to many people in the area you live in, you won't be getting a valid picture of every brexit voter in the nation.

For example, I imagine there were people in Scunthorpe who voted for high tariff protection and subidies for the steel industry. If you go talk to Jacob Rees Mogg and his ilk, their vote was to reduce tariffs to zero for a lot of products. These two visions are completely different. Hence, unless 98% of brexiters can agree on a vision then brexit is not going to be delivered in a way that pleases anybody. You can call it "waffle" but unfortunately it's the political reality we have and it is why no brexit deal has passed yet and why no deal brexit will not pass in parliament.

The hardest part is not leaving the EU. It will be deciding on our future relationship with not just the EU but the world. This is where Farage's party would crumble to pieces as they would have to pass huge amounts of legislation and if they have a party made up of far right sympathises, communists and a sprinkle of moderates, agreeing on this legislation is going to be very difficult. This is where the ignored "remoaners" might well bite back by deciding our future relationship with the world.
Posted by: Marinerz93, June 16, 2019, 1:54pm; Reply: 510
I too know a lot of young, intelligent people but they voted for remain because of the scare mongering leading up to the vote so on the day because they thought 'we need to remain because it will be falling off a cliff sad face' in the ballot box.

Since that time they have done their own research through various media and they are now staunch Brexiteers, they believe we would get a better deal if we had no deal on the table because it is a heavy weight bargaining chip. They also believe that we could walk away and come back and get a better deal as the EU has a budget black hole.

As for Farage, he seems to be the only one who fully understands the EU and how it works as he has worked there for long enough and still believes the UK would fair better out of it, if things remain they way they are at the minute his party is only going to gain ground. They were only formed 6 weeks before the Euro elections and smashed the Cons and Labour out of the park. That alone should be the barometer Europhile remoaners need to take note of as they whine for a peoples vote. I want us to have a deal, symbiotic one at that but the EU aren't looking at that, they want to punish the UK so others will be excrement scared of doing the same, that's why staunch remoaners want a hard Brexit.

The Europhile remoaners aren't looking for a comprise they are looking to derail the whole process so we stay in the EU. The vote in 2016 was stay or leave, it didn't stay leave but only if we have a deal, it was in or out no shaking it about.

Still you make some good points Bawmariner.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 16, 2019, 3:48pm; Reply: 511
I don't think the logic "we are in a stronger negotiating position if we leave without a deal" holds true. The belief that they need us more than we need them is a fallacy. No individual EU Country exports more than 10% of their exports to the UK, whereas they account for 44% of all our exports. So they are immediately in a stronger position than us, and will probably demand the 39 billion before they will even come to the table.
Posted by: Marinerz93, June 16, 2019, 11:29pm; Reply: 512
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
I don't think the logic "we are in a stronger negotiating position if we leave without a deal" holds true. The belief that they need us more than we need them is a fallacy. No individual EU Country exports more than 10% of their exports to the UK, whereas they account for 44% of all our exports. So they are immediately in a stronger position than us, and will probably demand the 39 billion before they will even come to the table.


How is it a fallacy when the UK imported £302 billion worth of goods and services from the EU, and exported £242 billion worth so has a £60 billion + trade deficit. By shopping around we can get better deals for the stuff we want, just like supermarkets, some people will only shop at a certain place others shop around, with the EU we can't shop around as they won't let others undercut them so they become protectionist and you can't get the offers elsewhere has on offer because they have blocked those deals/offers.

The EU is spending money it doesn't have especially on it's own bloated self, and the money that is wasted moving offices is staggering. They have a black hole in their budget and when push comes to shove, they stand to lose that £39 Billion they can't afford to lose, if they do, that money will have to come from the other EU countries and as we know most take out and don't put in, so the likes of France and Germany will have to cough up, so it will hurt them in the long run.

By taking no deal off the table you have basically conceded you'll take what's on offer as you have no bargaining chip. In any deal, you have to be prepared to walk away if the deal isn't right. £39 Billion should be giving us what we want, not the fob off deal they have said can't be bettered.
Posted by: barralad, June 17, 2019, 10:16am; Reply: 513
Quoted from Marinerz93


How is it a fallacy when the UK imported £302 billion worth of goods and services from the EU, and exported £242 billion worth so has a £60 billion + trade deficit. By shopping around we can get better deals for the stuff we want, just like supermarkets, some people will only shop at a certain place others shop around, with the EU we can't shop around as they won't let others undercut them so they become protectionist and you can't get the offers elsewhere has on offer because they have blocked those deals/offers.

The EU is spending money it doesn't have especially on it's own bloated self, and the money that is wasted moving offices is staggering. They have a black hole in their budget and when push comes to shove, they stand to lose that £39 Billion they can't afford to lose, if they do, that money will have to come from the other EU countries and as we know most take out and don't put in, so the likes of France and Germany will have to cough up, so it will hurt them in the long run.

By taking no deal off the table you have basically conceded you'll take what's on offer as you have no bargaining chip. In any deal, you have to be prepared to walk away if the deal isn't right. £39 Billion should be giving us what we want, not the fob off deal they have said can't be bettered.


That figure of £302 billion if indeed it is correct is the total across all 27 other E.U. nations whereas ours represents our sole export figure. In other words the hit for any individual country is significantly watered down.
If no deal is as I accept the default anyway why does no deal need to be on the table?
Posted by: Bawmariner, June 17, 2019, 12:01pm; Reply: 514
Quoted from Marinerz93


How is it a fallacy when the UK imported £302 billion worth of goods and services from the EU, and exported £242 billion worth so has a £60 billion + trade deficit. By shopping around we can get better deals for the stuff we want, just like supermarkets, some people will only shop at a certain place others shop around, with the EU we can't shop around as they won't let others undercut them so they become protectionist and you can't get the offers elsewhere has on offer because they have blocked those deals/offers.

The EU is spending money it doesn't have especially on it's own bloated self, and the money that is wasted moving offices is staggering. They have a black hole in their budget and when push comes to shove, they stand to lose that £39 Billion they can't afford to lose, if they do, that money will have to come from the other EU countries and as we know most take out and don't put in, so the likes of France and Germany will have to cough up, so it will hurt them in the long run.

By taking no deal off the table you have basically conceded you'll take what's on offer as you have no bargaining chip. In any deal, you have to be prepared to walk away if the deal isn't right. £39 Billion should be giving us what we want, not the fob off deal they have said can't be bettered.


While I agree no deal should be kept on the table, I think we have left it too late to properly prepare to make it a credible threat. Even if we had prepared, no deal would do so much more damage to the UK than the EU.

So we import £302 billion from the EU. This devided over 400 million (rough population of the EU). £755 per person that could be lost if Britain leave without a deal. The UK exports  £242 billion to the EU. Per person this is around £3,700 per person lost. That is a huge difference. Yes our businesses can go elsewhere but so can the EU. Each EU country even have trade deals with 65 other countries they can trade with instead of the UK. We've got 10 trade deals as it stands.
Posted by: Chrisblor, June 17, 2019, 2:27pm; Reply: 515
Quoted from Marinerz93
I too know a lot of young, intelligent people but they voted for remain because of the scare mongering leading up to the vote so on the day because they thought 'we need to remain because it will be falling off a cliff sad face' in the ballot box.


I work in a University. All our young, intelligent people (and academics while we're at it) think Brexit is a pile of shite and leave voters are thick. Hope this helps.
Posted by: barralad, June 17, 2019, 3:12pm; Reply: 516
Quoted from Marinerz93
I too know a lot of young, intelligent people but they voted for remain because of the scare mongering leading up to the vote so on the day because they thought 'we need to remain because it will be falling off a cliff sad face' in the ballot box.

Since that time they have done their own research through various media and they are now staunch Brexiteers, they believe we would get a better deal if we had no deal on the table because it is a heavy weight bargaining chip. They also believe that we could walk away and come back and get a better deal as the EU has a budget black hole.

As for Farage, he seems to be the only one who fully understands the EU and how it works as he has worked there for long enough and still believes the UK would fair better out of it, if things remain they way they are at the minute his party is only going to gain ground. They were only formed 6 weeks before the Euro elections and smashed the Cons and Labour out of the park. That alone should be the barometer Europhile remoaners need to take note of as they whine for a peoples vote. I want us to have a deal, symbiotic one at that but the EU aren't looking at that, they want to punish the UK so others will be excrement scared of doing the same, that's why staunch remoaners want a hard Brexit.

The Europhile remoaners aren't looking for a comprise they are looking to derail the whole process so we stay in the EU. The vote in 2016 was stay or leave, it didn't stay leave but only if we have a deal, it was in or out no shaking it about.

Still you make some good points Bawmariner.


What we don't know of course is how many Leave voters were influenced by the scare stories such as Turkey are days away from being admitted to the E.U. and that thousands of Turks will be heading for our shores. Both campaigns used scare tactics but the lazy barstewards Cameron and the terminally inadequate Osborne who thought the voters would swallow any old shite couldn't be bothered to do it properly. The Leave campaign were far more together, focussed and understood the mood of the people far better. The referendum was the first campaign to be "won" on the internet and social media. It changed campaigning completely and Labour's 2017 General Election campaign was more successful than Corbyn and co dared hope for because they quickly learned the lessons. The Tories still haven't grasped that posters condemning the opposition are so 1980s. My own particular favourite was referendum day itself where according to a friend of mine upwards of 100 people came to the polling station she was working on either armed with a pen or requesting one because the message had gone out that M.I.5 were going to be rubbing out the pencil marks of Leave voters. Every day I receive dozens of facebook/other social media posts from both sides. Truth is the only real victim here.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 17, 2019, 6:41pm; Reply: 517
https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7851/CBP-7851.pdf

The above is a government breakdown of trade between the uk and other E.U. countries.
Posted by: Grim74, June 17, 2019, 8:45pm; Reply: 518
Quoted from Chrisblor


I work in a University. All our young, intelligent people (and academics while we're at it) think Brexit is a pile of shite and leave voters are thick. Hope this helps.


You work in a brainwashing left wing institution well done 👏🏼
Posted by: Marinerz93, June 17, 2019, 9:10pm; Reply: 519
Quoted from Chrisblor


I work in a University. All our young, intelligent people (and academics while we're at it) think Brexit is a pile of shite and leave voters are thick. Hope this helps.


You must work in one of the great Universities.

Posted by: Marinerz93, June 17, 2019, 9:22pm; Reply: 520
Quoted from barralad


What we don't know of course is how many Leave voters were influenced by the scare stories such as Turkey are days away from being admitted to the E.U. and that thousands of Turks will be heading for our shores. Both campaigns used scare tactics but the lazy barstewards Cameron and the terminally inadequate Osborne who thought the voters would swallow any old shite couldn't be bothered to do it properly. The Leave campaign were far more together, focussed and understood the mood of the people far better. The referendum was the first campaign to be "won" on the internet and social media. It changed campaigning completely and Labour's 2017 General Election campaign was more successful than Corbyn and co dared hope for because they quickly learned the lessons. The Tories still haven't grasped that posters condemning the opposition are so 1980s. My own particular favourite was referendum day itself where according to a friend of mine upwards of 100 people came to the polling station she was working on either armed with a pen or requesting one because the message had gone out that M.I.5 were going to be rubbing out the pencil marks of Leave voters. Every day I receive dozens of facebook/other social media posts from both sides. Truth is the only real victim here.


Fair points Ian, especially about the truth being the only real victim. The scaremongering on both sides, people though remember the doom mongers when they wanted us to join the Euro, our economy would collapse if we didn't join and the like proved to be all guff. There are thousands of Turks in the UK already, the number that would have come is an unknown but models based on influx from other EU countries would have been a fair estimate of Turks that could have potentially come, there is a lot of poverty in Turkey, especially away from the major holiday spots, and we've already seen the Benefits tourists from other poor EU countries.
Posted by: Marinerz93, June 17, 2019, 9:32pm; Reply: 521
Quoted from barralad


That figure of £302 billion if indeed it is correct is the total across all 27 other E.U. nations whereas ours represents our sole export figure. In other words the hit for any individual country is significantly watered down.
If no deal is as I accept the default anyway why does no deal need to be on the table?


I don't know of any business that would enter into a negotiation with I'll take what ever you offer me regardless of how poor that deal is. Have you ever walked away from buying something because that deal was no good for you, I know I have many times with various projects.

You are more likely to get a better deal if the other party knows you may potentially say no thanks, the no deal doesn't have to be acted on but from what we have seen the EU is clearly punishing the UK to scare smaller countries out of leaving too.
Posted by: Ipswin, June 18, 2019, 7:43pm; Reply: 522
Quoted from Marinerz93


from what we have seen the EU is clearly punishing the UK to scare smaller countries out of leaving too.


Quite right too, we can hardly expect them to hold the door open for us thanking us as we leave or others might well chance their arm. Why would they. We chose to go they didn't push us.

As far as a 'no deal' exit is concerned I thought all the Brexiteer 'leave at any cost because the referendum said so' loonies would prefer to walk away with nowt anyway so intent are they on simply leaving at all costs that they're not bothered whether it is used as a lever or not, leaving is to them far more important, and intercourse the consequences, than getting 'a deal'

Posted by: Grim74, June 18, 2019, 8:09pm; Reply: 523
Quoted from Ipswin


Quite right too, we can hardly expect them to hold the door open for us thanking us as we leave or others might well chance their arm. Why would they. We chose to go they didn't push us.

As far as a 'no deal' exit is concerned I thought all the Brexiteer 'leave at any cost because the referendum said so' loonies would prefer to walk away with nowt anyway so intent are they on simply leaving at all costs that they're not bothered whether it is used as a lever or not, leaving is to them far more important, and intercourse the consequences, than getting 'a deal'



Drugs or alcohol tonight?

Posted by: Ipswin, June 18, 2019, 8:15pm; Reply: 524
Quoted from Grim74


Drugs or alcohol tonight?



Neither sadly, just watching the five flipping buffoons who would be PM and who stupidly think they can get a better deal, leave with no deal or get what's already been tried no end of times through just because May has drunk off.

No mention of course about whether the people (leavers or remainers) would accept it. For felicitations sake are we really going to entrust the final verdict to any of these male masturbators?

None of them answered the question put by the very first questioner - no change there then! More of the same to come

Posted by: Marinerz93, June 18, 2019, 8:22pm; Reply: 525
Quoted from Ipswin


Quite right too, we can hardly expect them to hold the door open for us thanking us as we leave or others might well chance their arm. Why would they. We chose to go they didn't push us.

As far as a 'no deal' exit is concerned I thought all the Brexiteer 'leave at any cost because the referendum said so' loonies would prefer to walk away with nowt anyway so intent are they on simply leaving at all costs that they're not bothered whether it is used as a lever or not, leaving is to them far more important, and intercourse the consequences, than getting 'a deal'



For me, the deal should benefit both the UK and EU, however I wouldn't want a deal that stops us being free to do what we want both with our own laws, regulations, trading and our courts with the final say on all things legal. Free trade, why not but not at the expense of us being closed off from trading with the rest of the world under our own steam.
Posted by: Ipswin, June 18, 2019, 9:21pm; Reply: 526
Quoted from Marinerz93


For me, the deal should benefit both the UK and EU, however I wouldn't want a deal that stops us being free to do what we want both with our own laws, regulations, trading and our courts with the final say on all things legal. Free trade, why not but not at the expense of us being closed off from trading with the rest of the world under our own steam.


And that might be the ideal solution in the eyes of many but that's the sort of arrangement which the EU are simply not going to agree to and why should they? We seek to leave, why would they make it easy for us and agree to any terms we try to insist on.

Personally I don't have any strong feelings either way about sovereignty, courts, laws et al to be honest but I do want us to keep a free trade agreement with the EU (even if it means we can't do business in the Andaman Islands, Chad or the Ryuku Islands) I think inter EU trade is simply the best way forward for us and I believe that's the deal which would jointly benefit the UK and the EU too as you suggest

Posted by: Marinerz93, June 19, 2019, 11:55pm; Reply: 527
Quoted from Ipswin


And that might be the ideal solution in the eyes of many but that's the sort of arrangement which the EU are simply not going to agree to and why should they? We seek to leave, why would they make it easy for us and agree to any terms we try to insist on.

Personally I don't have any strong feelings either way about sovereignty, courts, laws et al to be honest but I do want us to keep a free trade agreement with the EU (even if it means we can't do business in the Andaman Islands, Chad or the Ryuku Islands) I think inter EU trade is simply the best way forward for us and I believe that's the deal which would jointly benefit the UK and the EU too as you suggest



I'd prefer to do trading with the common wealth countries and nations that would benefit from our business raising them out of the third world rather than be stuck in a protectionist union which in the whole is set up to benefit France and Germany and with future plans they will claw more of the money away from us.
Posted by: Rik e B, June 21, 2019, 4:27pm; Reply: 528
Meanwhile, the formation of a European Army (European Defence Union) was of course a load of scaremongering hogwash [url] https://www.ukcolumn.org/article/european-defence-union-parliamentary-written-questions[/url]
Posted by: GollyGTFC, June 21, 2019, 5:39pm; Reply: 529
Quoted from Ipswin


Neither sadly, just watching the five flipping buffoons who would be PM and who stupidly think they can get a better deal, leave with no deal or get what's already been tried no end of times through just because May has drunk off.

No mention of course about whether the people (leavers or remainers) would accept it. For felicitations sake are we really going to entrust the final verdict to any of these male masturbators?

None of them answered the question put by the very first questioner - no change there then! More of the same to come



Rory Stewart was at least honest about the primary problem, but couldn't answer what would happen when May's deal would be rejected a 4th time.

The EU WILL NOT renegotiate. No deal WILL NOT happen. May's deal WILL NOT pass through parliament. There will 100% have to be some form of democratic event to sort the issue out.

The government's majority is so slim and there are enough Tory PMs who have stated they will do whatever it takes to avoid a no deal Brexit (i.e. even bring the government down in a Vote of No Confidence) that neither Boris or Jeremy CHunt would ultimately push for a no deal Brexit.

The Prime Minister will be faced with 2 options: 1) Try and force through no deal and see the government collapse, a general election called and the Conservatives wiped out. 2) Call a 2nd referendum with no deal or remain on the ballot paper,

The PM will go for option 2, because if Brexit doesn't happen then he can blame parliament and the Conservatives can try and limp on for a couple of years and recover enough so that the inevitable election defeat they are facing isn't so bad.

The EU won't grant an extension if we're just trying to kick the can down the road again, but they would 100% extend for a democratic process that may result in us revoking A50 and staying in the EU.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 21, 2019, 7:31pm; Reply: 530
I read an article the other day that suggested Boris will call an election for late september citing the eu as being intransigent. Torys will then campaign for no deal to win back support from the brexit party and hope they squeeze back in.

Sounded quite a plausible set of events to me.
Posted by: Rik e B, June 22, 2019, 9:41am; Reply: 531
Or Golly:

Try and force through no deal and see the government collapse, a general election called and the Conservatives do a deal with Farage's Brexit party and win by a landslide
Posted by: grimsby pete, June 22, 2019, 1:59pm; Reply: 532
I think they will be told by the EU its the deal or no deal no more talking,

Then the deal will be put to the house for a 4th time and will go through,

OR

We go out without a deal and the government will say it was Labours fault for not voting for it.
Posted by: Ipswin, June 23, 2019, 7:43am; Reply: 533
Quoted from grimsby pete
I think they will be told by the EU its the deal or no deal no more talking,

Then the deal will be put to the house for a 4th time and will go through,

.


In which case we may have well have kept Theresa May rather than the flipping buffoon the Tories are about to elect

Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, June 23, 2019, 8:42am; Reply: 534
Boris at yesterday tory hustings event "“You disaggregate the elements of the otherwise defunct Withdrawal Agreement.. You reserve the payment of the £39bn. That is in the context of the Free Trade Agreement, that we’ll negotiate in the implementation period, after we’ve come out on Oct 31st

Idiot doesn't even realise that there is only an implementation period, if we agree to the withdrawal agreement.

He also got called out for being completely wrong on his claim about being able to use GATT Article 24 the day before.

Guy hasn't got a clue, but his rabid supporters are happily ignoring all forms of truth at this stage.
Posted by: barralad, June 23, 2019, 9:33am; Reply: 535
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
I read an article the other day that suggested Boris will call an election for late september citing the eu as being intransigent. Torys will then campaign for no deal to win back support from the brexit party and hope they squeeze back in.

Sounded quite a plausible set of events to me.


Interesting take..It would be a huge leap of faith for Boris whose own seat is far from safe in Remain London. It would put Labour under intense pressure however.
Rik:- Whether a deal with Farage's mob would entice voters in Labours heartlands or whether their hate of the Tories would mean they would vote traditionally is a moot point.
Posted by: grimsby pete, June 23, 2019, 11:36am; Reply: 536
Boris has made a very poor start and Hunt takes an early lead in the race.

Long way to go yet though.
Posted by: codcheeky, June 23, 2019, 12:59pm; Reply: 537
Quoted from barralad


Interesting take..It would be a huge leap of faith for Boris whose own seat is far from safe in Remain London. It would put Labour under intense pressure however.
Rik:- Whether a deal with Farage's mob would entice voters in Labours heartlands or whether their hate of the Tories would mean they would vote traditionally is a moot point.


Johnson will also face a massive backlash over his lack of opposition to the Heathrow new runway, his constituency is very close and he promised he would lie in front of the bulldozers to help get himself elected and disappeared when it came to voting
Posted by: Ipswin, June 23, 2019, 4:27pm; Reply: 538
Quoted from codcheeky


he promised he would lie in front of the bulldozers


Now that is something I'd pay to see (on the understanding that the bulldozer had no brakes of course)

Posted by: KingstonMariner, July 3, 2019, 5:16pm; Reply: 539
Anyway, the masterplan is working on both sides of the Atlantic:

Posted by: Grim74, July 4, 2019, 2:42pm; Reply: 540
Got my ballot paper through today now who should I vote for Hunt or Johnson? 🤔
Posted by: Maringer, July 4, 2019, 4:30pm; Reply: 541
Depends which of the over-privileged incompetent liars you like best, I suppose? Johnson is obviously more proficient at lying and less competent but it's effectively a Hobson's choice.

I'd imagine Hunt would last a little bit longer in Downing Street before a vote of no confidence but it doesn't really matter as the numbers would indicate it is pretty much in the bag for Johnson. The aged Tory membership are happy to overlook his innumerable flaws because they think he's 'charismatic'. Let's hope he doesn't start any wars before he gets turfed out.
Posted by: chaos33, July 4, 2019, 8:11pm; Reply: 542
If you are still deluded enough to believe in brexit, get your head around this....

Posted by: Grim74, July 4, 2019, 9:20pm; Reply: 543
James o Brian FFS I’d rather watch an orphanage burn down then listen to that depressing winging cry baby remain loser.
Posted by: chaos33, July 4, 2019, 9:33pm; Reply: 544
Listen to his expert guest then. You might learn something.
We are f***ed.
Posted by: Marinerz93, July 5, 2019, 11:40am; Reply: 545


Remoaners sad face.
Posted by: chaos33, July 5, 2019, 12:07pm; Reply: 546
So a silly graphic and a repetition of a childish phrase but not any reasoned, researched, economics backed arguments.

I haven’t heard any pro brexit counter arguments of the above type at all and certainly not from the two leadership contenders who clearly haven’t read the documents and statutes and research that they should. We haven’t heard the case and the plan because it doesn’t exist.
Anyone who has researched and reflected will have come to the same inescapable conclusions that I have. That there’s no deal to be had, there never was, and a no deal  brexit will smash our economy and social infrastructure to pieces, and I am a Euro sceptic who almost voted leave!
Posted by: codcheeky, July 5, 2019, 2:47pm; Reply: 547
Quoted from chaos33
So a silly graphic and a repetition of a childish phrase but not any reasoned, researched, economics backed arguments.

I haven’t heard any pro brexit counter arguments of the above type at all and certainly not from the two leadership contenders who clearly haven’t read the documents and statutes and research that they should. We haven’t heard the case and the plan because it doesn’t exist.
Anyone who has researched and reflected will have come to the same inescapable conclusions that I have. That there’s no deal to be had, there never was, and a no deal  brexit will smash our economy and social infrastructure to pieces, and I am a Euro sceptic who almost voted leave!


There is a deal to be had, unfortunately whoever wins the leadership contest will play up to the Brexit extremists who will not let it happen, May would have got her deal through if she had involved Labour and the SNP  in her negotiations. I believe most people accept the votes outcome, realise it was close and expect compromise. I voted leave and the totally undemocratic way the EU has selected it's new leaders shows why I was right to do so. They have completely shot themselves in the foot

I expected and hoped for a deal similar to Norway, I am not against free movement, but believe until we adopt the Euro we will be so far on the edge we are better off out. We need to be able to re-nationalise the Utilities and railways, manage our own fishing waters and keep the NHS safe.
I would probably vote remain if the only choice was no deal or remain.
Posted by: Marinerz93, July 5, 2019, 4:43pm; Reply: 548
Quoted from chaos33
So a silly graphic and a repetition of a childish phrase but not any reasoned, researched, economics backed arguments.

I haven’t heard any pro brexit counter arguments of the above type at all and certainly not from the two leadership contenders who clearly haven’t read the documents and statutes and research that they should. We haven’t heard the case and the plan because it doesn’t exist.
Anyone who has researched and reflected will have come to the same inescapable conclusions that I have. That there’s no deal to be had, there never was, and a no deal  brexit will smash our economy and social infrastructure to pieces, and I am a Euro sceptic who almost voted leave!


Heard the same old guff about not joining the Euro, Europhiles will stop at nothing, just a bunch of cry babies playing chicken little, the sky's falling in ha ha. Even the doom mongering comments about the vote in 2016, the majority of it never happened and when the UK picked up again after a slight dip, the remoaning cry babies gave birth to the phrase despite Brexit, ha ha

Quick do your Eu war dance.

Posted by: chrissy, July 5, 2019, 4:53pm; Reply: 549
Anybody who voted leave and thought we were going to get a good deal were deluded why would the EU say yes you are leaving take this good deal with you it wont encourage any other country to leave.  ;)
I voted leave and I did not expect to get a good deal and all the ones I have spoken to who also voted leave did not think we would end up with a good deal.
What we did expect was to leave in an orderly manner with some sort of a deal whether May's deal was good or bad it was the only deal on the table and we can thank all those useless MP's who voted against it to thank that we are still talking about it now.
We should have left months ago and be getting on with our new found freedom by now. I trust Boris to take us out but think he will make a poor Prime Minister and as far as Hunt goes I have no idea if he would take us out or not and he will also make a poor Prime Minister ..
Before the Labour voters on here say lets have another election they have even worse candidates than the Tories to run the country and having another referendum would just be a waste of time and we would be having the same argument  for years to come.
Lets just leave and make the best of what we can arrange with the rest of the world.
Posted by: Maringer, July 5, 2019, 5:40pm; Reply: 550
We would most definitely NOT want to join the Euro in its current form. You can't have a currency union without fiscal union as the PIIGS countries have found to their detriment. But, as I've said in the past, the EU is not the Eurozone.

I suppose EFTA membership (or something very similar) would be OK, but that wouldn't halt the freedom of movement which is one of the sticking points for most Brexiters who only see the 'negative' of them there foreigners coming to benight our golden shores rather than our ability (and that of our children) to travel and live and work in most European countries ourselves. The fact that non-EU immigration, which we have always been able to control (if we hadn't needed them to support our ageing population, has long outpaced that of EU citizens and continues unabated seems to have passed most Brexiters by as well.

No deal will be a shitshow, if it eventually happens. I have a sneaking feeling that the EU might let us stew for a few months before opening the door for our return, minus the rebate and various other benefits of membership which we have enjoyed, of course.
Posted by: chaos33, July 5, 2019, 6:41pm; Reply: 551
Quoted from Marinerz93


Heard the same old guff about not joining the Euro, Europhiles will stop at nothing, just a bunch of cry babies playing chicken little, the sky's falling in ha ha. Even the doom mongering comments about the vote in 2016, the majority of it never happened and when the UK picked up again after a slight dip, the remoaning cry babies gave birth to the phrase despite Brexit, ha ha

Quick do your Eu war dance.



You’ve just underlined the point. Go on, make sound economic argument for brexit without a silly picture or a childish insult....
Posted by: Marinerz93, July 5, 2019, 6:53pm; Reply: 552
Quoted from chaos33


You’ve just underlined the point. Go on, make sound economic argument for brexit without a silly picture or a childish insult....




Here remoaner have some of the EU milkshake,



Posted by: Marinerz93, July 7, 2019, 4:13pm; Reply: 553
EU democracy - doesn't seem to be the case according to a lot of angry Euorpean MEP's, about 52 mins in.

Posted by: Maringer, August 28, 2019, 4:18pm; Reply: 554
So, with our new Prime Minister who was put into office by 0.03% of the electorate, we're now "taking back control" by shutting down parliament for 5 weeks to deny the people who actually were elected (the MPs) to have an input into the process. How democratic.

Johnson (very apt name, because he's a male private) is also talking about the possiblity of cramming the Lords with even more unelected cronies to force through the hardest of Brexits, something which we were assured wasn't on the agenda at the time of the referendum.

Start stockpiling, folks. It could be a bumpy ride.  :-/
Posted by: grimsby pete, August 28, 2019, 4:38pm; Reply: 555
If we leave with or without a deal and Scotland have another referendum and leave the UK rejoining the EU. Will they have to have a hard border with England ?
Posted by: Maringer, August 28, 2019, 4:55pm; Reply: 556
If the Scots left the UK, they would need to apply for membership of the EU. There would, of course, be a transitionary period where there wouldn't need to be a hard border. Just like the backstop would allow in Northern Ireland. Oddly enough, the Northern Irish didn't want to leave the EU, either.

It would be a complex situation, requiring a complex solution. Something which many Brexiteers don't seem to be able to or want to understand.

Remember, the hard Brexiteers really don't give a flying intercourse about Northern Ireland. They are just using it as an excuse to get the wackiest of hard Brexits. Aided and abetted by the fuckwits of the DUP, of course.
Posted by: grimsby pete, August 28, 2019, 5:44pm; Reply: 557
My thoughts are there would be a hard border because England will have different rules with our imports from the USA and others otherwise there would be no reason for a hard border at all in Ireland .

Still find interesting what will happen if we leave with no deal as Boris has already said we shall not be putting up a hard border so if it happens it will be down to the EU.

I bet the EU will come up with some plan or other so all the ongoing talking and arguing will have been for nothing and we could have left with a deal months ago.
Posted by: Marinerz93, August 28, 2019, 7:41pm; Reply: 558
Quoted from Maringer
So, with our new Prime Minister who was put into office by 0.03% of the electorate, we're now "taking back control" by shutting down parliament for 5 weeks to deny the people who actually were elected (the MPs) to have an input into the process. How democratic.

Johnson (very apt name, because he's a male private) is also talking about the possiblity of cramming the Lords with even more unelected cronies to force through the hardest of Brexits, something which we were assured wasn't on the agenda at the time of the referendum.

Start stockpiling, folks. It could be a bumpy ride.  :-/


If democracy really mattered to you, you would have been venting all over here when we didn't leave on the 31st March as voted by parliament when they triggered article 50, you remember that once in a life time democratic vote that had more people (17 Million Fcuk Off's EU) engaged in politics than ever before, the MP's triggered the leave date and that was on the basis to leave on 31st March with or without a deal. Of course you are a staunch europhile so it suited you to ignore that bit of anti democracy.

Johnson may well be a male private and a host of other expletives, no arguments there but he has outsmarted the remoaning europhiles, if they spent less time rimming Verhofstadt and Macron they may have been awake enough to counter Boris, and they wouldn't be left with that sad face falling off a cliff, you can try your little EU war dance as a last resort but it'll be in vain as Boris has done all the europhiles in one swoop without breaking sweat.

Europhiles out smarted by Boris


Europhiles realising they have been out smarted by Boris and can't do anything about it.
Posted by: barralad, August 28, 2019, 8:45pm; Reply: 559
Surely we didn't leave on 29 March (31st was a Sunday) because Tories such as Rees-Mogg kept us in by voting agaunst the deal?
Posted by: chaos33, August 28, 2019, 9:03pm; Reply: 560
And, of course, Boris voted FOR May’s deal at its last hearing!?!
Posted by: Maringer, August 29, 2019, 7:52am; Reply: 561
I'm all for democracy but it was an advisory referendum only. No legal standing at all which is actually why some of the leave campaigners who fiddled the finances didn't go to prison. Parliament is sovereign and should be quite capable of just saying it was a bad idea and we'll give it a miss, thanks.

Leavers see it as nothing but getting out of Europe. I see it as having a set of rights (as an EU citizen) forcibly removed from half the population against their will.
Posted by: Marinerz93, August 29, 2019, 11:34am; Reply: 562
Quoted from Maringer
I'm all for democracy but it was an advisory referendum only. No legal standing at all which is actually why some of the leave campaigners who fiddled the finances didn't go to prison. Parliament is sovereign and should be quite capable of just saying it was a bad idea and we'll give it a miss, thanks.

Leavers see it as nothing but getting out of Europe. I see it as having a set of rights (as an EU citizen) forcibly removed from half the population against their will.


Although legally the referendum was non-binding, the government of that time had promised to implement the result, and it initiated the official EU withdrawal process on 29 March 2017, meaning that the UK was due to leave the EU before 11PM on 29 March 2019, UK time, when the two-year period for Brexit negotiations expired, with or without a deal as voted by MP's

Seems you have selective memory or is it just a case you are only for democracy when it suits you.


Party after Party make false promises or fail to deliver so some of their manifesto after they get elected, there was more people turning out to vote than ever before for this once in a generation leave or remain, fail to deliver this mother of all promises and politics in this country is dead, dead in the home of democracy.

I see you mentioned that some of the leave campaigners who fiddled the finances didn't go to prison, that's a matter for the Police, put your complaints to them. I also see you failed to mention Open Society funding anti brexit campaigns to the tune of over £700,000 including Gina Miller in fact any party that looks to de-stabilise any government seems to get funding from open society across the world, think about that one.

Furious Lord Lamont, the Tory chancellor plunged into a recession by George Soros’ mammoth bet against the Pound 25 years ago, told him to “stick to finance”.

The Tory peer said: “It seems very perverse and odd for the Soros foundation, which exists to promote democracy, to seek to undermine democracy in this way.

“George Soros is a brilliant financier, but he should stick to finance and stay out of British politics.”


Tory Eurosceptic Iain Duncan Smith demanded Best for Britain hand back the £400,000: “He’s not a British citizen and therefore can’t even vote. Therefore I expect by tomorrow all decency demands they hand the money back and say ‘No thank you’.”

Hungary’s government made a bill as a check on the influence of Soros as his funding was destabilising Hungary through illegal immigration.

What rights are you having forcibly removed that you currently enjoy under under the EU cabal, that you didn't enjoy under a free and sovereign UK.

Remoaners
Posted by: grimsby pete, August 29, 2019, 11:41am; Reply: 563
Quoted from Maringer
I'm all for democracy but it was an advisory referendum only. No legal standing at all which is actually why some of the leave campaigners who fiddled the finances didn't go to prison. Parliament is sovereign and should be quite capable of just saying it was a bad idea and we'll give it a miss, thanks.

Leavers see it as nothing but getting out of Europe. I see it as having a set of rights (as an EU citizen) forcibly removed from half the population against their will.


I have always said that Cameron was stupid to give us a choice to leave,

Having done that the MP'S had a duty to take us out which they have failed to do  so we could still be debating the why 's and why not's for years to come.

Another general election is getting closer so we will see if the majority of the country want us out or want a Corbyn government.
Posted by: Maringer, August 29, 2019, 1:26pm; Reply: 564
What I can't understand, Mz93, is exactly what you think your silly gifs actually achieve. They aren't funny, most definitely aren't clever and make you look a bit of a pillock. Other than that, you have reasonable arguments some of the time!

Mayhem was foolish to invoke article 50 before negotiations had begun (and yes, she was egged on by Corbyn's Labour Party to do so) but it bit her on the bottom when she called an election leading her to be reliant on the DUP and the Brexiteers in her party. This is why we face an appalling hard exit of the worst kind. With this in mind, parliament should be making the decisions and Johnson's ploy is using procedure as a political tool to try and outwit his opponents. From now onwards, any sitting Prime Minister could do the same.

Regardless, parliament should be the ones debating and voting on the final deal (should there be one). They should also have the option of withdrawing article 50 if they decide that is the best thing to do. They won't, of course, but a further confirmatory referendum (which your man Rees-Mogg once backed) makes sense entirely, especially with the politicians unable to come to an agreement. If you're so keen on democracy, let's have a confirmation to decide whether a hard Brexit, May's deal or remain is what people want. If the demographics weren't pointing the way they are with many leavers now deceased and young voters remain-leaning, you can be sure one would be going ahead.

I'll ignore the usual drivel about Soros, so beloved of those who get their news from dodgy right wing sources. He's rather open what he stands for and is open about the money donated to Miller's pressure group. On the other hand, we don't even know where a lot of the money came from which was donated to one of the leave campaigns. The Cambridge Analytica stuff is about as dodgy as it gets.
Posted by: Marinerz93, August 29, 2019, 5:08pm; Reply: 565
Quoted from Maringer
What I can't understand, Mz93, is exactly what you think your silly gifs actually achieve. They aren't funny, most definitely aren't clever and make you look a bit of a pillock.




Other than that, you have reasonable arguments some of the time!



Mayhem was foolish to invoke article 50 before negotiations had begun (and yes, she was egged on by Corbyn's Labour Party to do so) but it bit her on the bottom when she called an election leading her to be reliant on the DUP and the Brexiteers in her party. This is why we face an appalling hard exit of the worst kind. With this in mind, parliament should be making the decisions and Johnson's ploy is using procedure as a political tool to try and outwit his opponents. From now onwards, any sitting Prime Minister could do the same.



Johnson has outwitted the europhiles and remoaners all in one sweet move. A no deal Brexit will only happen if the EU doesn't budge on the crap deal it gave after no deal was taken off the table, why would they give us a fair deal without the possibility of walking away. Boris may get the sort of deal that is workable or he walks away and we go to WTO rules, we are a big enough economy to deal with that.  

Regardless, parliament should be the ones debating and voting on the final deal (should there be one). They should also have the option of withdrawing article 50 if they decide that is the best thing to do. They won't, of course, but a further confirmatory referendum (which your man Rees-Mogg once backed) makes sense entirely, especially with the politicians unable to come to an agreement. If you're so keen on democracy, let's have a confirmation to decide whether a hard Brexit, May's deal or remain is what people want. If the demographics weren't pointing the way they are with many leavers now deceased and young voters remain-leaning, you can be sure one would be going ahead.



Talk to me about the European elections again, what party cleaned up after only being formed 6 weeks before the elections, does not compute, does not compute. I don't think your view is held by the majority who voted in the Eu elections.

So all the old dead racists were to blame, not the old and wise generation who lived through tough times and knew more about politics and holding people to account than some youth who gets spoon fed propaganda from EU funded universities and social bed wetting lefties funded by Soros and his open society.


I'll ignore the usual drivel about Soros, so beloved of those who get their news from dodgy right wing sources. He's rather open what he stands for and is open about the money donated to Miller's pressure group. On the other hand, we don't even know where a lot of the money came from which was donated to one of the leave campaigns. The Cambridge Analytica stuff is about as dodgy as it gets.


As for your comments about Soros beloved of left wing democracy hating europhile would say that. Again, if criminal activity has taken place take it to the Police.

Posted by: Maringer, August 29, 2019, 5:25pm; Reply: 566
Q.E.D. regarding my pillock comment.
Posted by: Marinerz93, August 29, 2019, 5:43pm; Reply: 567
Quoted from Maringer
Q.E.D. regarding my pillock comment.




I'd rather be a pillock than a narcissistic left wing social bedwetter who hates his own country.



If the UK leaves without a deal and we don't fall off this imaginary cliff and it is business as usual that you left wing bed wetters are always crying about then it will be as you will then claim despite Brexit.



Here's to hoping the 31st October is Democracy Day..


Posted by: chaos33, August 29, 2019, 6:14pm; Reply: 568
“Like captured partisans digging their own mass grave”
Posted by: codcheeky, August 29, 2019, 8:16pm; Reply: 569
Quoted from Marinerz93




I'd rather be a pillock than a narcissistic left wing social bedwetter who hates his own country.



If the UK leaves without a deal and we don't fall off this imaginary cliff and it is business as usual that you left wing bed wetters are always crying about then it will be as you will then claim despite Brexit.



Here's to hoping the 31st October is Democracy Day..



Perhaps you are the only one on here who thinks your gifs are even mildly amusing, it’s like you are stuck in 12 year old mode
Posted by: Marinerz93, August 29, 2019, 9:11pm; Reply: 570
Quoted from codcheeky

Perhaps you are the only one on here who thinks your gifs are even mildly amusing, it’s like you are stuck in 12 year old mode


No so pumpkin latte, people I know who read the fishy often tell me they find some of the animated gifs really funny and ask where I got them from, but what they find is even funnier is the reaction of certain posters having a hissy fit and comment that they don't find the animated gifs funny and try and slate me for it, just like you saying the above, ironically acting like a man child in doing so. When ever I read a comment saying you shouldn't post animated gifs I picture Veruca Salt throwing a tantrum.

If you wanted to act like an adult instead of a man child, I suggest you block my posts, that way you won't see any animated gifs you don't like and can turn your mood hover onto something else to suck the life out of whilst pretending you're an adult.

Posted by: Azimuth, September 3, 2019, 5:04pm; Reply: 571
Where is Melanie Onn? She is very quiet lately.
Posted by: mariner91, September 3, 2019, 10:23pm; Reply: 572
Quoted from Marinerz93


Johnson may well be a male private and a host of other expletives, no arguments there but he has outsmarted the remoaning europhiles, if they spent less time rimming Verhofstadt and Macron they may have been awake enough to counter Boris, and they wouldn't be left with that sad face falling off a cliff, you can try your little EU war dance as a last resort but it'll be in vain as Boris has done all the europhiles in one swoop without breaking sweat.



This has aged well. Boris, the master tactician.
Posted by: GollyGTFC, September 4, 2019, 1:51pm; Reply: 573
Quoted from mariner91


This has aged well. Boris, the master tactician.


As first days go that was amongst the worst. BJ started his first day in the HoC as PM with a majority of zero and ended it leading a minority government of -44. If this is part of a Boris master plan (as Marinerz93 believes) then he's a genius because he's fooled the entire country and all reputable political commentators to believe that he's lost control of parliament and is finished as PM after less than 7 weeks.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, September 4, 2019, 2:19pm; Reply: 574
I've been a long time observer of this thread without really having too strong an opinion on the detail but as someone who voted to remain ( thinking maybe the status quo might be better than change ) I readily accepted the outcome of the referendum. Que sera sera.... it is what it is I believed

The majority vote was to leave the EU but the longer this goes on, the more I think that we will forever be part of the union and I don't know what the long term effect on the public might be when it comes to their perception of politics and politicians

I know it's a childlike analogy but it's like someone cheating who can never be trusted not to do so again... the vote was supposed to be a "once in a lifetime" decision, come what may

I just didn't expect it to take a lifetime to go round and round and round without making any progress, continually driving a wedge between the people of this country

David Cameron has got a lot to answer for... let the genie out of the bottle and now it's smoke and mirrors all the way  :-/
Posted by: Maringer, September 4, 2019, 2:39pm; Reply: 575
Johnson is gambling on getting one of two outcomes: 1) Holding a General Election before 31st October (as close as possible would be good for him) and his rhetoric already indicates he's going to use the 'traitor' shtick to claim anybody wanting to avoid a hard Brexit is in cahoots with those dastardly Europeans. It would be an almost fact free campaign heavy on the rhetoric with all sorts of spending promises which will be unchallenged by the right-wing media who claim that any expenditure promised by the Labour Party would turn us into another Zimbabwe (or is it Venezuela, this time?). He'll probably need some sort of an electoral pact with the Brexit Party which will give Farage and a few of his clingers-on seats at the top table.

The other outcome he'd aim for is 2) Ram through a hard Brexit and then have an election immediately afterwards before the shite really starts to hit the fan. Johnson would hope to hoover up all the former Kippers/Brexit Party supporters to get a healthy majority and could then just concentrate on blaming the EU for everything which was going wrong.
Posted by: GollyGTFC, September 4, 2019, 2:47pm; Reply: 576
Quoted from FishOutOfWater
I've been a long time observer of this thread without really having too strong an opinion on the detail but as someone who voted to remain ( thinking maybe the status quo might be better than change ) I readily accepted the outcome of the referendum. Que sera sera.... it is what it is I believed

The majority vote was to leave the EU but the longer this goes on, the more I think that we will forever be part of the union and I don't know what the long term effect on the public might be when it comes to their perception of politics and politicians

I know it's a childlike analogy but it's like someone cheating who can never be trusted not to do so again... the vote was supposed to be a "once in a lifetime" decision, come what may

I just didn't expect it to take a lifetime to go round and round and round without making any progress, continually driving a wedge between the people of this country

David Cameron has got a lot to answer for... let the genie out of the bottle and now it's smoke and mirrors all the way  :-/


David Cameron does have a lot to answer for (as does Theresa May) but...

...and this is NOT directed at you...

The country voted 51.89% to leave the EU. Every political party at the last general election pledged to honour that. However we're 2 and a bit years down the line and the Tories have made an absolute shambles of the entire negotiation. They have totally and utterly failed.

We're all sick and tired of Brexit. But that does not mean that we have to accept a disastrous no deal Brexit just because the Tories have copulated everything up.

So what if Brexit has to be delayed for another 3 months, a year or even longer? Brexit has to be resolved, but it has to be resolved with the best possible outcome to protect the economy, jobs and all people living in the UK. This will effect the country for generations to come. What's the rush?

Especially as there is no prospect for a general election resolving the problem with parliamentary numbers. The Tories have no chance of winning a majority and Labour will be propped up by fierce pro-Remain parties.
Posted by: grimsby pete, September 4, 2019, 3:09pm; Reply: 577
I think if we knew how long it was going to take and all the infighting everywhere even on here a football forum.

A lot of us who voted to leave might think twice if there is a next time.

We just want it to end for Christ's sake !!!!!!!!!
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, September 4, 2019, 5:19pm; Reply: 578
Quoted from GollyGTFC


David Cameron does have a lot to answer for (as does Theresa May) but...

...and this is directed at you...

The country voted 51.89% to leave the EU. Every political party at the last general election pledged to honour that. However we're 2 and a bit years down the line and the Tories have made an absolute shambles of the entire negotiation. They have totally and utterly failed.

I accept that their negotiations have been a shambles but aren't we all accustomed to politicians fudging things. Always been that way and always will be I guess

We're all sick and tired of Brexit. But that does not mean that we have to accept a disastrous no deal Brexit just because the Tories have copulated everything up.

This is something I have an issue with.... is it going to be a disaster because the media tell us it is will be or are there hard facts that prove without any shadow of a doubt that the country will go under?


So what if Brexit has to be delayed for another 3 months, a year or even longer? Brexit has to be resolved, but it has to be resolved with the best possible outcome to protect the economy, jobs and all people living in the UK. This will effect the country for generations to come. What's the rush?

There is seemingly no "rush" - three years plus since the referendum and an exit is no nearer. As for the best possible outcome.... of course nobody wants UK plc to crash and burn but maybe there will have to be some pain before there is any gain ( assuming there will be some of course...that's not a given )


Especially as there is no prospect for a general election resolving the problem with parliamentary numbers. The Tories have no chance of winning a majority and Labour will be propped up by fierce pro-Remain parties

I tend to agree that a general election will just lead to an even more fragmented state of affairs... the Brexit Party and UKIP ( if they stand ) could easily leave the Tories wringing their hands as their vote is split. Then again who's to say that these two won't also "steal" votes from Labour


It could mean that our first past the post system might deliver a four ( or even a five) way split this time.... a bit like the Peterborough by-election where Labour won the seat with less than 30% of the vote because the Tories and the Brexit Party went after the same voters. That could be replicated across the whole country and who knows what the Scots will do.  .


Interesting times lie ahead.... but all the time we are like a rudderless ship and the EU is just watching and waiting in the wings. I do find it rather odd that their leaders have not taken more of an active role in proceedings, especially trying to "educate" the British public on the "benefits" of the EU,  but maybe they just think that this is all some British game and that when all is said and done they aren't bothered that much about the UK after all

Who knows? I still think David Cameron has a lot to answer for though!  ;)
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, September 4, 2019, 7:03pm; Reply: 579
Quoted from grimsby pete
I think if we knew how long it was going to take and all the infighting everywhere even on here a football forum.

A lot of us who voted to leave might think twice if there is a next time.

We just want it to end for Christ's sake !!!!!!!!!


It’s a fallacy to think that it will end if we come out without a deal. It would just be the beginning. Have a read of this to see what would be in store https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/ivan-rogers-the-realities-of-a-no-deal-brexit/
Posted by: GollyGTFC, September 4, 2019, 7:46pm; Reply: 580
Quoted from FishOutOfWater


Interesting times lie ahead.... but all the time we are like a rudderless ship and the EU is just watching and waiting in the wings. I do find it rather odd that their leaders have not taken more of an active role in proceedings, especially trying to "educate" the British public on the "benefits" of the EU,  but maybe they just think that this is all some British game and that when all is said and done they aren't bothered that much about the UK after all

Who knows? I still think David Cameron has a lot to answer for though![/i]  ;)


Missed out the NOT. Corrected now.
Posted by: Marinerz93, September 4, 2019, 7:46pm; Reply: 581
Quoted from GollyGTFC


As first days go that was amongst the worst. BJ started his first day in the HoC as PM with a majority of zero and ended it leading a minority government of -44. If this is part of a Boris master plan (as Marinerz93 believes) then he's a genius because he's fooled the entire country and all reputable political commentators to believe that he's lost control of parliament and is finished as PM after less than 7 weeks.


The game isn't over yet and Boris has just done a bit of house clearing getting rid of his opponents on a scale unseen before without bloodshed and the Queen can veto a law after it has been passed in the Houses of Parliament. Boris already got the queen to prorogue Parliament, maybe this was his plan all along to force the remainers into doing his bidding, and pushing a general election as he knows people don't trust Corbyn and the EU elections show all the main parties losing out dramatically to Farage. He puffs his chest and spouts the same stuff as Farage those who voted for the Brexit party vote for him, A gamble yes, but a better gamble than the lifeless May when she thought she could increase her majority. He gets rid of MP's who would block his plans, he replaces them with those with the same ideas as him so he knows he won't be opposed, maybe not good for the conservatives but it puts the power of being a leader firmly in Boris hands.

If we are to remain in the EU and governed from Brussels like before, what is the point to MP's, because when ever we couldn't do something in the UK, for example remove VAT off sanitary towels the women of this nation were told no it's a luxury item under the EU and has to to have VAT, there are young girls in this country who miss school because their parents can't afford to buy their daughters sanitary towels, this is crazy and the doing of the EU which common sense would say what the hell are you playing at. The real reason why so many MP's want to remain is because the EU does all the work whilst they just stick their snouts in the trough easy money when someone else is doing the graft and when people complain they just say can't do ought about it mate it's the EU.

I doubt there will be a general election as Labour are excrement scared of the amount of votes they will lose as the biggest leave areas are Labour, funny how our Mel has gone quiet, biggest news in the telewag is blue/green algae in Sidney park pond.

It's gone from being pair shaped to bat excrement crazy, if there is to be a general election and Farage does what he said he would do and put Brexit party members and challenge every seat, where do you see the votes going after the EU elections results. What sort of Brexit will it be then.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, September 4, 2019, 8:04pm; Reply: 582
Quoted from GollyGTFC


Missed out the NOT. Corrected now.


Haha. Well by missing it out it provoked another response from me  ;)
Posted by: Grimbiggs, September 4, 2019, 8:18pm; Reply: 583
Quoted from Marinerz93


I doubt there will be a general election as Labour are excrement scared of the amount of votes they will lose as the biggest leave areas are Labour, funny how our Mel has gone quiet, biggest news in the telewag is blue/green algae in Sidney park pond.

It's gone from being pair shaped to bat excrement crazy, if there is to be a general election and Farage does what he said he would do and put Brexit party members and challenge every seat, where do you see the votes going after the EU elections results. What sort of Brexit will it be then.


This exactly, as much as the Tories have made a complete mess of Brexit, I can't think of a worst Labour opposition since Michael Foot. They've continually sat on the fence, In/Out, 2nd referendum, who knows? and yet if a General Election was held, I still doubt they'd be the largest party within the house, and would need the SNP to stand any chance of forming a government....as much as the Tories are in disarray, this just highlights how badly Labour/ Corbyn are perceived.

Posted by: GollyGTFC, September 4, 2019, 8:36pm; Reply: 584
Quoted from Grimbiggs


This exactly, as much as the Tories have made a complete mess of Brexit, I can't think of a worst Labour opposition since Michael Foot. They've continually sat on the fence, In/Out, 2nd referendum, who knows? and yet if a General Election was held, I still doubt they'd be the largest party within the house, and would need the SNP to stand any chance of forming a government....as much as the Tories are in disarray, this just highlights how badly Labour/ Corbyn are perceived.



The British public have made a fine art of using European & Local elections as a way of giving bloody noses to the main two parties and then come a general election fall back in line and stick stubbornly with the 2 main parties. There's nothing I see or hear that makes me think a general election this year would be any different.

Theresa May tried to make the 2017 GE 90% about Brexit and look where it got her. Boris is going to attempt the same but with a no deal Brexit as his strategy.

My prediction for a GE:-

Tories was wiped out in Scotland (to SNP)
Tories lose seats in Wales
Tories lose seats in the South-West & South-West London (to Lib Dems)
Labour lose seats in Scotland (to SNP)

Tories would need to win around 40 seats in Labour heartland. They'll fail miserably.

Hung parliament. (Tories + DUP will be well short of majority.)

Corbyn will become PM propped up by Lib Dems (who are promised a referendum on Brexit deal they strike with EU) & SNP (who are promised Indy Ref 2) in a keep the Tories out coalition.
Posted by: GollyGTFC, September 4, 2019, 8:42pm; Reply: 585
Re: Labour sitting on the fence.

Probably the wise course of action. Let the Tories own the mess they have created. Labour are in a tough place. Half their seats are in inner-city remain areas and half are in northern remain towns. Playing the game of gently swinging towards being seen as pro-remain as the Tories get more and more into a hole and time runs out was probably the best option for them. Even if it has been frustrating watching them fail to properly hold the government to account.
Posted by: GrimRob, September 4, 2019, 8:55pm; Reply: 586
Quoted from Roast Em Bobby


It’s a fallacy to think that it will end if we come out without a deal. It would just be the beginning. Have a read of this to see what would be in store https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/ivan-rogers-the-realities-of-a-no-deal-brexit/


Whatever happens, it is going to rumble on for years, like the Global Financial Crisis of 2008 did (when bankers were the villains). The UK government is going to have to do lots of things that the EU used to do, there will be winners and losers doubtless.
Posted by: Grimbiggs, September 4, 2019, 8:58pm; Reply: 587
Quoted from GollyGTFC


The British public have made a fine art of using European & Local elections as a way of giving bloody noses to the main two parties and then come a general election fall back in line and stick stubbornly with the 2 main parties. There's nothing I see or hear that makes me think a general election this year would be any different.

Theresa May tried to make the 2017 GE 90% about Brexit and look where it got her. Boris is going to attempt the same but with a no deal Brexit as his strategy.

My prediction for a GE:-

Tories was wiped out in Scotland (to SNP)
Tories lose seats in Wales
Tories lose seats in the South-West & South-West London (to Lib Dems)
Labour lose seats in Scotland (to SNP)

Tories would need to win around 40 seats in Labour heartland. They'll fail miserably.

Hung parliament. (Tories + DUP will be well short of majority.)

Corbyn will become PM propped up by Lib Dems (who are promised a referendum on Brexit deal they strike with EU) & SNP (who are promised Indy Ref 2) in a keep the Tories out coalition.


Yes they normally do, but I think the election will be fought on Leave or Remain lines, and I think those in Labour Leave area's will think twice on how their party have betrayed them, by not respecting the result of the referendum. The North East and Yorkshire with seats like Stockton South, Bishop Auckland, Darlington etc, and those in Yorkshire, Don Valley, Wakefield, Rother Valley, Keighley etc, are all very likely to fall. I can see nothing more than a Tory majority or a hung parliament at worse, and whilst the bookies do occasionally get it wrong I think the 6/4 on offer a cracking price!
Posted by: GollyGTFC, September 4, 2019, 9:09pm; Reply: 588
We'll see. I wouldn't put money on a Tory majority if it was 1,000/1.
Posted by: GrimRob, September 4, 2019, 9:29pm; Reply: 589
Quoted from GollyGTFC
We'll see. I wouldn't put money on a Tory majority if it was 1,000/1.


Tories are a very short price to be the biggest party. There's definitely going to be more tactical alliances and voting on all sides so it's very hard to call. Tories get very few votes from under 40's. Younger voters are key, no excuse not to vote this time!
Posted by: Grimbiggs, September 4, 2019, 9:40pm; Reply: 590
[quote=2]

Tories are a very short price to be the biggest party. There's definitely going to be more tactical alliances and voting on all sides so it's very hard to call. Tories get very few votes from under 40's. Younger voters are key, no excuse not to vote this time![/quote]

Yes, but the pied piper, aka Corbyn, won't be able to spin the line of getting rid of student tuition fees this time! Whilst he will still collect a large proportion of the younger vote, it's the older working class leave voter's that will desert him this time, for betraying the referendum result. Apathy will play a big part, and I think they will struggle to galvanise their vote amongst their core support. Labour's only hope of winning is by getting rid of him.
Posted by: Marinerz93, September 4, 2019, 10:17pm; Reply: 591
What are people's thoughts on Stephen Kinnock as the next labour leader, saw his speech earlier and he came across miles better than Corbyn has ever done.
Posted by: Maringer, September 4, 2019, 10:30pm; Reply: 592
Quoted from Grimbiggs

Yes, but the pied piper, aka Corbyn, won't be able to spin the line of getting rid of student tuition fees this time! Whilst he will still collect a large proportion of the younger vote, it's the older working class leave voter's that will desert him this time, for betraying the referendum result. Apathy will play a big part, and I think they will struggle to galvanise their vote amongst their core support. Labour's only hope of winning is by getting rid of him.


Of course they can get rid of student tuition fees. Many countries don't have them (including a number of our European neighbours) - heck, 99% of the MPs in parliament who went to university didn't pay any. I certainly didn't.

I think Labour have little chance of winning a majority in an election - the electoral calculus is badly against them due to the impoverised northern towns where many of the electorate bizarrely think Brexit would be a good thing for their areas. This explains the sitting on the fence we've seen. They were waiting for the Tories to implode (as we're now seeing), but it has been strung out too long for them. May was bloody useless in every respect, but she kept hanging in there through the endless beatings in a way I don't think you could imagine many politicians could bear. This has played into the hands of the LibDems who astonishingly find themselves back in the game. Swinson is a pretty appalling and unprincipled politician, but nobody really cares about anything but their remain stance at present. Added to this, we've had the Blairite rump attacking the Labour leadership endlessly and the greatly overstated antisemitism claims recycled over and over again (expect to see more of this shortly). Corbyn or not, I think Labour have got too much to overcome to get to a majority.

That said, a lot of elderly Brexiteers are no longer on this mortal coil (and others won't be capable of voting any longer). If the young actually get off their rear ends and vote, something could happen. Anything, as long as it gets rid of Johnson. I just hope we end up with some kind of proper electoral reform so we can have a grown up electoral system like most of the rest of the world.
Posted by: Maringer, September 4, 2019, 10:43pm; Reply: 593
Quoted from Marinerz93
What are people's thoughts on Stephen Kinnock as the next labour leader, saw his speech earlier and he came across miles better than Corbyn has ever done.


Kinnock's dream is to be Blair Mk. II. Parachuted into a safe seat through patronage (no previous involvement in British politics as he'd been living in Europe for years). Calculating, untrustworthy and he was desperate for his own party to do badly in 2017 as he was expecting to be given a leg up in the aftermath. Pretty hilarious to see his reaction when the exit polls showed it was unlikely that there would be a Tory majority. Here's his wife (former Danish PM) giving him a bollocking telling him to get it together immediately before he went on air for an interview:

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/everything-learned-stephen-kinnock-politics-13931165

Like something from The Thick of It.

I certainly wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.
Posted by: GollyGTFC, September 5, 2019, 7:54am; Reply: 594
Quoted from Grimbiggs
[quote=2]

Tories are a very short price to be the biggest party. There's definitely going to be more tactical alliances and voting on all sides so it's very hard to call. Tories get very few votes from under 40's. Younger voters are key, no excuse not to vote this time![/quote]

Yes, but the pied piper, aka Corbyn, won't be able to spin the line of getting rid of student tuition fees this time! Whilst he will still collect a large proportion of the younger vote, it's the older working class leave voter's that will desert him this time, for betraying the referendum result. Apathy will play a big part, and I think they will struggle to galvanise their vote amongst their core support. Labour's only hope of winning is by getting rid of him.


No one is disputing that the Tories will be the biggest party, but they only have the DUP (Max 10 MPs) to prop them up. The stop the Tories coalition that could prop up Labour can call on Lib Dem (15 +MPs), SNP (35+ MPs), PC (4+ MPs) & Greens (min 1 MP).

Being the biggest party is irrelevant if you can’t command a majority in the House of Commons.
Posted by: codcheeky, September 5, 2019, 8:18am; Reply: 595
Kinnock is worse than his old man, Blairite to the core and has no chance of ever holding any leadership thoughts. Corbyn will offer free student places again, it is Labour Party policy, it happens in Scotland and many other European countries as Maringer pointed out. The Labour Party are right to let Johnson stew in the !was and chaos he his creating for a while, he is completely out of his depth as shown at PMQs yesterday. The novelty of of having a complete clown as PM will soon wear very thin, he is already making Corbyn look more competent, he has dug himself a hole prepared for him by the far right brexiteers and is stuck in it.He is alienating a good chunk of his own party and has already lost his small majority. The opposition and rebels have effectively control of parliament and are unlikely to risk that with a General Election until Johnson is seen for the Hapless clown he is
Posted by: Maringer, September 5, 2019, 10:50am; Reply: 596
One thing I've seen reported is that the Tories are quite confident that their internal polling indicates their approach can work.

Ultimately, they're going for the 'drunk off with it all' vote, thinking they can get the votes of those who just want Brexit over and one with one way or the other. Hence the positioning and propaganda we've seen over the past week or two. Nonsense like calling legislation to avoid a catastrophic no deal the 'surrender bill' and so forth. These voters won't care that Johnson won't answer any questions, because he doesn't have any answers. They are just bored and want it finished.

I don't think I should really need to note that you'd have to be a bit of a flipping idiot to vote for something which is almost certain to catastrophically damage the economy and your own livelihoods just because you're bored. But there you go, people are odd. If that's what the nation ultimately goes for, I just hope these people have enough savvy to accept that they made an error when it all goes mammaries up. My guess is that they won't.

Of course, my preference would be that they never get the chance to find out.
Posted by: GollyGTFC, September 5, 2019, 11:15am; Reply: 597
Quoted from Maringer
One thing I've seen reported is that the Tories are quite confident that their internal polling indicates their approach can work.

Ultimately, they're going for the 'drunk off with it all' vote, thinking they can get the votes of those who just want Brexit over and one with one way or the other. Hence the positioning and propaganda we've seen over the past week or two. Nonsense like calling legislation to avoid a catastrophic no deal the 'surrender bill' and so forth. These voters won't care that Johnson won't answer any questions, because he doesn't have any answers. They are just bored and want it finished.

I don't think I should really need to note that you'd have to be a bit of a flipping idiot to vote for something which is almost certain to catastrophically damage the economy and your own livelihoods just because you're bored. But there you go, people are odd. If that's what the nation ultimately goes for, I just hope these people have enough savvy to accept that they made an error when it all goes mammaries up. My guess is that they won't.

Of course, my preference would be that they never get the chance to find out.


They thought they were heading to a huge majority at the last election until 10PM when the exit poll result was announced.
Posted by: Maringer, September 5, 2019, 12:18pm; Reply: 598
So, the Prime Minister's brother has just resigned from government (and as an MP). To recycle a joke I've just read, you don't get many MPs leaving politics to spend less time with their family.  ;)
Posted by: Ipswin, September 5, 2019, 4:33pm; Reply: 599
Quoted from grimsby pete
I think if we knew how long it was going to take and all the infighting everywhere even on here a football forum.

A lot of us who voted to leave might think twice if there is a next time.

We just want it to end for Christ's sake !!!!!!!!!


I fear the opposite might be the case Pete and that, given a second vote, many remainers, so drunk off with it all, will change their minds and vote to leave (I won't incidentally) but at least that might ensure a larger leave majority than the first vote and therefore an end to all the bitching and nitpicking.

For this reason I really don't see why all the 'leavers' are so vehemently opposed and excrement vscared about putting it to a second vote, sadly I think in the event of a second run that leave will urine it.

Posted by: KingstonMariner, September 5, 2019, 11:11pm; Reply: 600
Quoted from Maringer


I just hope we end up with some kind of proper electoral reform so we can have a grown up electoral system like most of the rest of the world.


Were you spying on my texts last night to my unhinged Brexiteer friend? (He's a nice bloke, heart of gold and I love him to bits, but he comes up with some odd things now and again).

The funny side of it is, it's been the rabid Brexiteers nemesis the Lib-Dems arguing for electoral reform for decades.
Posted by: Marinerz93, September 6, 2019, 9:37am; Reply: 601
Quoted from Maringer


Kinnock's dream is to be Blair Mk. II. Parachuted into a safe seat through patronage (no previous involvement in British politics as he'd been living in Europe for years). Calculating, untrustworthy and he was desperate for his own party to do badly in 2017 as he was expecting to be given a leg up in the aftermath. Pretty hilarious to see his reaction when the exit polls showed it was unlikely that there would be a Tory majority. Here's his wife (former Danish PM) giving him a bollocking telling him to get it together immediately before he went on air for an interview:

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/everything-learned-stephen-kinnock-politics-13931165

Like something from The Thick of It.

I certainly wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.


Thanks for the info, thought I'd ask as I didn't know much about him before I saw him speaking the other evening in parliament and thought he came across very well. The last thing we need is Blairites getting back in control of the labour party.
Posted by: GollyGTFC, September 6, 2019, 9:57am; Reply: 602
It's funny. If BoJo is so confident he'll win a majority at an election why is he touring Conservative held marginals and not touring target seats. Gives the impression they think it's a battle to cling on to seats rather than win additional ones.
Posted by: Marinerz93, September 6, 2019, 10:06am; Reply: 603
Quoted from GollyGTFC


No one is disputing that the Tories will be the biggest party, but they only have the DUP (Max 10 MPs) to prop them up. The stop the Tories coalition that could prop up Labour can call on Lib Dem (15 +MPs), SNP (35+ MPs), PC (4+ MPs) & Greens (min 1 MP).

Being the biggest party is irrelevant if you can’t command a majority in the House of Commons.


If there was a general election on the 18th October, Farage would put candidates in all seats and if the EU elections are anything to go by, Labour in the north stand to lose out to them if that were to happen. I saw on Question time the other night that the Conservatives won't join with the Brexit party but if the Brexit party stands and wins a fair few seats what is the odds that they would change their view to become a majority and stop a Labour / Lib Dem/ greens, and SNP coalition. The welsh in the main voted to leave so maybe Plaid Cymru will take a hit too.

For democracy to work, the losers have to consent and they never have, they may say they have but their actions say otherwise. We will not leave on 31st October and we are putting the EU back in charge for when we leave if Boris is forced to ask for an extension, that's if they agree to an extension but it could come with a caveat that it will be for x amount of extra years at x amount of millions. Why should MP's ask for an extension, they have already had over 2 years.

Personally I want a deal that allows us as a sovereign nation to make our own laws, regulations and buy goods and services from anywhere in the world without someone in Brussels saying no if it effects their members.

Corbyn has been asking for a general election for months and now Boris has said ok, lets have won, the Labour party is no where to be seen. If Corbyn has so much conviction in what he is opposing, why doesn't he demand a general election and then if he wins he can over turn the 17.4 million decision to leave and tell the EU we are remaining.

Plenty more twists and turns to come, the main loser so far is democracy, and we'll never see people vote in the numbers they did in the referendum, no matter what they voted for again. Both leave and remain voters have had enough, our politicians are grossly incompetent and do not deserve the £79,468 a year they leech from us.
Posted by: GollyGTFC, September 6, 2019, 10:27am; Reply: 604
Quoted from Marinerz93


If there was a general election on the 18th October, Farage would put candidates in all seats and if the EU elections are anything to go by, Labour in the north stand to lose out to them if that were to happen. I saw on Question time the other night that the Conservatives won't join with the Brexit party but if the Brexit party stands and wins a fair few seats what is the odds that they would change their view to become a majority and stop a Labour / Lib Dem/ greens, and SNP coalition. The welsh in the main voted to leave so maybe Plaid Cymru will take a hit too.

For democracy to work, the losers have to consent and they never have, they may say they have but their actions say otherwise. We will not leave on 31st October and we are putting the EU back in charge for when we leave if Boris is forced to ask for an extension, that's if they agree to an extension but it could come with a under a caveat that it will be for x amount of extra years at x amount of millions. Why should MP's ask for an extension, they have already had over 2 years.

Personally I want a deal that allows us as a sovereign nation to make our own laws, regulations and buy goods and services from anywhere in the world without someone in Brussels saying no if it effects their members.

Corbyn has been asking for a general election for months and now Boris has said ok, lets have won, the Labour party is no where to be seen. If Corbyn has so much conviction in what he is opposing, why doesn't he demand a general election and then if he wins he can over turn the 17.4 million decision to leave and tell the EU we are remaining.

Plenty more twists and turns to come, the main loser so far is democracy, and we'll never see people vote in the numbers they did in the referendum, no matter what they voted for again. Both leave and remain voters have had enough, our politicians are grossly incompetent and do not deserve the £79,468 a year they leech from us.


Oh please. Really. The Brexit party will win ZERO seats at an election.

And for all Corbyn's faults Labour (and the Lib Dems & SNP) are putting the country first ahead of his party in rejecting an election at this moment in time. Johnson has proved time and time again he is a liar and that he can't be trusted.

I have a theory how this all might play out. Personally I think we'll end up with an election on either 28th November or 5th December after Johnson has failed to get a deal and an extension is forced by parliament.
Posted by: Rodley Mariner, September 6, 2019, 10:53am; Reply: 605
Johnson is going to position the purged Tory party as the Brexit party which might mitigate their threat but if they split the vote it could get Lab/Libs in. Think non-rabid right-wingers are going to need to vote as tactically as possible.
Posted by: Maringer, September 6, 2019, 1:03pm; Reply: 606
The biggest surprise so far is just how inept Johnson's speeches and appearances in the HoC have been. Bad enough that it makes me wonder if it's some kind of an act. Obviously, Johnson has always been a congenital liar, but he's always been pretty slick with it (the bumbling buffoonery was mostly an act). Is he actually cracking up under the pressure of the job and the corner he's been persuaded to paint himself into or is he just trying to present the facade of doing so to try and tempt Labour to agree to an early election?

Possibly a bit too Machiavellian for him as he's a excrement, but I wouldn't have ever said he was a particularly devious excrement. I suppose you never know.
Posted by: Marinerz93, September 6, 2019, 1:22pm; Reply: 607
Quoted from GollyGTFC


Oh please. Really. The Brexit party will win ZERO seats at an election.

And for all Corbyn's faults Labour (and the Lib Dems & SNP) are putting the country first ahead of his party in rejecting an election at this moment in time. Johnson has proved time and time again he is a liar and that he can't be trusted.

I have a theory how this all might play out. Personally I think we'll end up with an election on either 28th November or 5th December after Johnson has failed to get a deal and an extension is forced by parliament.


The EU elections say otherwise from a party formed just 6 weeks before the EU election to wipe out most of the political parties, and if they do put candidates up they will win seats in the north and most likely Boston. There are liars on both sides for example Emily Thornberry was ridiculed for what she has said in the past and what she plans to do, and LBC host Iain Dale asked if Thornberry had 'no shame' after revealing Labour's Brexit policy.

Your theory might not be far off the mark, if the surrender Bill is passed and also if the EU accept to extend and what would that extension look like as it will be the EU to dictate terms. Should we see what the terms are before opting for a general election?
Posted by: GollyGTFC, September 6, 2019, 1:25pm; Reply: 608
The "rebel alliance" have confirmed they will not back a GE until after the EU council meeting on Thursday 17th October.

Election date likely to be 28th November or 5th December depending whether Boris obeys the instruction to seek an extension once he fails miserably to agree a deal with the EU.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, September 6, 2019, 1:35pm; Reply: 609
Quoted from GollyGTFC
The "rebel alliance" have confirmed they will not back a GE until after the EU council meeting on Thursday 17th October.

Election date likely to be 28th November or 5th December depending whether Boris obeys the instruction to seek an extension once he fails miserably to agree a deal with the EU.


So if he is obliged to ask for an extension, is there any timescale?

Does he go to the EU "cap-in-hand" and say please we need more time and then they decide how much added time there will be or will he have specific instructions from parliament requesting another 3, 6 months or longer, which they will then either need to agree to or not?

I know he's said he rather be "dead in a ditch" but does he have any get out if parliament tells him as our PM, he has to go?

I'm genuinely confused as to what stance he would take......  ::)


Posted by: Ipswin, September 6, 2019, 2:02pm; Reply: 610
Quoted from FishOutOfWater


So if he is obliged to ask for an extension, is there any timescale?

Does he go to the EU "cap-in-hand" and say please we need more time and then they decide how much added time there will be or will he have specific instructions from parliament requesting another 3, 6 months or longer, which they will then either need to agree to or not?

I know he's said he rather be "dead in a ditch" but does he have any get out if parliament tells him as our PM, he has to go?

I'm genuinely confused as to what stance he would take......  ::)




I suspect that, faced with the choice of 'dying in a ditch' (my choice for him) or resignation, the fat lying twit will roll over and go cap in hand for the shortest extension possible in the hope that it will then be enough to get the opposition to agree to an election which he still hopes to win.

He will then do absolutely intercourse all to try for a new deal ('the backstop' will still be and will remain forever a problem anyway) until the extension runs out during which time he will hope to be able to repeal the 'no deal' law.

This outcome does of course depend on him getting a majority in the election which please God he won't



Posted by: GollyGTFC, September 6, 2019, 3:07pm; Reply: 611
Quoted from FishOutOfWater


So if he is obliged to ask for an extension, is there any timescale?

Does he go to the EU "cap-in-hand" and say please we need more time and then they decide how much added time there will be or will he have specific instructions from parliament requesting another 3, 6 months or longer, which they will then either need to agree to or not?

I know he's said he rather be "dead in a ditch" but does he have any get out if parliament tells him as our PM, he has to go?

I'm genuinely confused as to what stance he would take......  ::)

He has to do it on October 19th if a deal hasn't been agreed- which of course it won't be.

He then has 3 choices: seek an extension; resign as PM or ignore the instruction.

Seek an extension - election would be agreed in parliament on Monday October 21st probably to take place on Thursday 28th November.

Resign as PM - he'd have to go to the palace and resign. He could wait until after the EU summit (17-18 October) and resign when he's due to seek the extension, but he might well do it next Monday when the extension bill is law. The Queen would have to send for Jeremy Corbyn (or Maybe Ken Clarke) and ask him to form a government. Whichever would form a temporary government, secure an extension and then seek an immediate general election (if Boris & the Tories agree to one).

Ignore the instruction - would probably result in an immediate confidence vote in parliament which he'll lose. "Rebel Alliance" will then have to quickly get Corbyn (or Clarke) through a confidence vote to form an emergency government to seek an extension and seek an immediate general election (if Boris & the Tories agree to one).

Boris might like the last 2 of those options as if the caretaker PM is Ken Clarke then he would probably lose the "shortest time as UK Prime Minister" record that he's about to gain.
Posted by: Grimbiggs, September 6, 2019, 9:27pm; Reply: 612
This is the reason why the Labour party doesn't want an Election at the minute, very grim reading:-

Current Prediction: Conservative majority 50

Party2017 Votes     2017 Seats     Pred Votes     Pred Seats

CON 43.5%            318                     33.3%            350
LAB     41.0%          262                    25.0%           193
LIB     7.6%              12                     17.9%              34
Brexit 0.0%                0                     12.9%                0
Green 4.7%                1                     7%                       1     
SNP     3.1%              35                       3.6%              51
Posted by: LH, September 6, 2019, 9:38pm; Reply: 613
Quoted from Grimbiggs
This is the reason why the Labour party doesn't want an Election at the minute, very grim reading:-

Current Prediction: Conservative majority 50

Party2017 Votes     2017 Seats     Pred Votes     Pred Seats

CON 43.5%            318                     33.3%            350
LAB     41.0%          262                    25.0%           193
LIB     7.6%              12                     17.9%              34
Brexit 0.0%                0                     12.9%                0
Green 4.7%                1                     7%                       1     
SNP     3.1%              35                       3.6%              51


Where is that data from? The Institute for the deaf, blind braindead and long-term unconscious?
Posted by: Grimbiggs, September 6, 2019, 9:47pm; Reply: 614
Quoted from LH


Where is that data from? The Institute for the deaf, blind braindead and long-term unconscious?


Electoral Calculus, an average of all polling, Labour's vote percentage likely to be the worst since Michael Foot managed 27.6% in 1983. Election will be fought on Leave/ Remain lines, LEAVE- Conservative/ Brexit party, REMAIN- Labour/ Lib Dem/ SNP/ Green parties....Labour will be hit the hardest for betraying their core vote, and failing to uphold the result of the Referendum.
Posted by: Maringer, September 6, 2019, 11:01pm; Reply: 615
Oddly enough, the Tories were going to have a massive majority in 2017 as well. What happened there?

The most accurate pollster last time was Survation. Their most recent poll came in mid-August and gave the Tories a 4% lead, even after the usual bounce which follows the arrival a new leader. I'd imagine Johnson has lost a few percent of that through his sheer ineptitude this week.

However, their voting intentions indicated a 43% remain with 9% undecided and the others for some form of leave though very many more favouring a softer Brexit. On a knife edge still, really. The question is how would this affect the vote overall?

From the shambles we've seen this week, you'd tend to think that Johnson is more likely to make more member ups than get his act together.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, September 6, 2019, 11:45pm; Reply: 616
I have no doubt that Johnson is actually not a Brexiteer or even a Conservative by conviction. Every choice he has made has been whatever he saw as serving his interest in getting the top job. He's probably a Tory because they win more elections than Labour. He decided at the last minute to back Leave because he sniffed the chance they would win. The guy is also an inveterate lier - there are too many occasions to list here. Quite a few are listed here though https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson


Chickens are coming home to roost. The Opposition is able to avoid voting for a general election because they can hide behind Boris' reputation as a lier. More the fool all the Tory Brexiteers for supporting him. He's played his hand badly and lost the chance of Brexit by 31 October. Parliament is asserting its authority - just as he claimed he wanted in the Referendum campaign.

All the backstabbing he has done in the Tory party has backfired too. I bet fewer would have rebelled if he'd not been such a dishonourable weasle. Instead there's a distinct whiff of revenge in the air.

I'm loving seeing the lying girl private squirm.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, September 6, 2019, 11:47pm; Reply: 617
As to what will happen. copulated if I know. But the odds are we will leave with a deal and it'll involve the Irish backstop.
Posted by: GollyGTFC, September 7, 2019, 8:25am; Reply: 618
Quoted from Grimbiggs
This is the reason why the Labour party doesn't want an Election at the minute, very grim reading:-

Current Prediction: Conservative majority 50

Party2017 Votes     2017 Seats     Pred Votes     Pred Seats

CON 43.5%            318                     33.3%            350
LAB     41.0%          262                    25.0%           193
LIB     7.6%              12                     17.9%              34
Brexit 0.0%                0                     12.9%                0
Green 4.7%                1                     7%                       1     
SNP     3.1%              35                       3.6%              51


Not gonna happen.
Posted by: GollyGTFC, September 7, 2019, 8:34am; Reply: 619
Quoted from Grimbiggs


Electoral Calculus, an average of all polling, Labour's vote percentage likely to be the worst since Michael Foot managed 27.6% in 1983. Election will be fought on Leave/ Remain lines, LEAVE- Conservative/ Brexit party, REMAIN- Labour/ Lib Dem/ SNP/ Green parties....Labour will be hit the hardest for betraying their core vote, and failing to uphold the result of the Referendum.


The election will NOT be fought on leave/remain lines. The election will be fought on what the public decides. And that will be what elections are always fought on: education; NHS; crime and policing; public services; economic competence etc... Theresa May tried to dictate the theme of the 2017 election and we all know where that got her,

And all this shite about Labour betraying their core vote. STOP PRESS: More Tory voters voted Remain than Labour voters voted Leave!
Posted by: GollyGTFC, September 7, 2019, 8:36am; Reply: 620
Quoted from KingstonMariner
As to what will happen. copulated if I know. But the odds are we will leave with a deal and it'll involve the Irish backstop.


They need to get the Irish border right. Because whatever is in place will become the default border for England & Scotland when Scotland go independent and join the EU.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, September 7, 2019, 11:29am; Reply: 621
Quoted from GollyGTFC


They need to get the Irish border right. Because whatever is in place will become the default border for England & Scotland when Scotland go independent and join the EU.


But will the EU sanction Scotland trying to join as an independent country?

I recall when they had their referendum and the line being if Scotland had decided to leave the UK, they could not be admitted immediately to the EU because they have to still follow the strict membership criteria ( the process can take years I believe )

More importantly though, Spain were preparing to veto any application they made because they saw Scotland's independence acting as a potential catalyst to the Basques etc wanting to have their own independence

However this all plays out it's going to be a right   b u g g e r ' s  m u d d l e  :-/
Posted by: Grimbiggs, September 9, 2019, 10:03am; Reply: 622
Poignant that Mugabe has recently passed away; think carefully when voting in he next General Election ....Corbyn who has spent the majority of his life campaigning with every anti-western tyrant, Marxist heroes who have all ended up destroying their countries...we must not let it happen here!
Posted by: GollyGTFC, September 9, 2019, 10:05am; Reply: 623
Quoted from Grimbiggs
Poignant that Mugabe has recently passed away; think carefully when voting in he next General Election ....Corbyn who has spent the majority of his life campaigning with every anti-western tyrant, Marxist heroes who have all ended up destroying their countries...we must not let it happen here!


Oh do fvck off. This is the Fishy. Not the Daily fvcking Mail.
Posted by: Maringer, September 9, 2019, 10:16am; Reply: 624
Quoted from Grimbiggs
Poignant that Mugabe has recently passed away; think carefully when voting in he next General Election ....Corbyn who has spent the majority of his life campaigning with every anti-western tyrant, Marxist heroes who have all ended up destroying their countries...we must not let it happen here!


Ah, crap, you didn't mention Venzuela. I'd have completed my bullshit bingo card if you had.

Corbyn is a moderate social democrat, not a Marxist nationalist turned African dictator. Comparison of the two is risible nonsense - the fact that the Murdoch press is slinging around such nonsensical slurs is to be expected, but please engage your brain before lapping them up.
Posted by: Grimbiggs, September 9, 2019, 11:15am; Reply: 625
So much of a social democrat, that he ignores the will of the people. In the words of Emily Thornberry" prepared to got back to the EU, negotiate a deal bring it back to the house, ignore Labour's own deal, and back remain". I suggezt you stay off the juice, and get back to believing everyting you read in the Guardian, or more likely the Mirror!...social democrats my a##e!
Posted by: mariner91, September 9, 2019, 4:48pm; Reply: 626
it’s not the will of the people to have a no deal Brexit and anyone who claims otherwise is a moron.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, September 9, 2019, 6:35pm; Reply: 627
Quoted from mariner91
it’s not the will of the people to have a no deal Brexit and anyone who claims otherwise is a moron.


I saw something the other day that said that of those who voted for Brexit, 75% won't object to leaving, with no deal with the EU in place

I can't recall where it was I saw that figure ( a YouGov poll maybe? ) but there must be a lot of morons out there going by your "reasoning"  ;D
Posted by: LH, September 9, 2019, 6:55pm; Reply: 628
Quoted from FishOutOfWater


I saw something the other day that said that of those who voted for Brexit, 75% won't object to leaving, with no deal with the EU in place

I can't recall where it was I saw that figure ( a YouGov poll maybe? ) but there must be a lot of morons out there going by your "reasoning"  ;D


Yep!
Posted by: chaos33, September 9, 2019, 7:12pm; Reply: 629
But there are. People going ‘just get it done’. I wish to make this life changing decision on a ‘run out of patience’ and ‘a ‘frustrated at not having understood the balance of the relevant  complex issues contained herein’ basis!’ Leave means leave! Even if it’s tantamount to smashing ourselves in the face with an iron anvil and then throwing myself off a cliff, I want brexit. It’s the will of (some of) the people! Tune in to any radio show or tv debate and it’s stuffed with bigoted, inarticulate, ill informed, unbalanced oafs expressing the above.

To have democracy you need to be able to make ‘informed decisions’. This isn’t the case here.

There isn’t a ‘deal’. There never was and there never will be. This is a legal and technical matter, and not a business transaction and the EU have treated it as such, you’ll note. Stay or leave. Up to you. There are years and years of complex technical diplomatic, trade and political arrangements that would befit a discussion on how we might extract ourselves. The idea that you just walk away from your responsibilities without sorting out what the future holds is the territory of the nutjob. And yet, the media and the public go on and on about a ‘deal’ or ‘no deal’ like it was buying a car or a f***ing game show, and the least statesmanlike leader we’ve ever had goes on repeating empty platitudes and crass sound bytes and that’s it.
Look at the stark contrast evident today between Varadkar and Johnson. One of them articulate, measured, informed, statesmanlike....the other one Boris Johnson.
What a national embarrassment.

We are now in farce land, and the world looks on and concludes - what a set of fools!
Posted by: chaos33, September 9, 2019, 7:27pm; Reply: 630
“If we left the EU we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by Brussels, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and chronic underinvestment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure”.

Boris Johnson in 2013.

He was right then.
Posted by: mariner91, September 9, 2019, 10:17pm; Reply: 631
Quoted from FishOutOfWater


I saw something the other day that said that of those who voted for Brexit, 75% won't object to leaving, with no deal with the EU in place

I can't recall where it was I saw that figure ( a YouGov poll maybe? ) but there must be a lot of morons out there going by your "reasoning"  ;D


75% of 52% is 39%. And that's of the people who voted and works out roughly at 13.1million. There are 66 million people in the UK and if only 13.1million of them would want a no deal Brexit then that's less than 20% of the population. If you think that is the "will of the people" then you're  a moron (not you personally). It's also not even over 50% of the people who voted so it's clearly not the will of the fucking people.
Posted by: Grimbiggs, September 10, 2019, 8:36am; Reply: 632
Your maths is about as good as Diane Abbot's. Theres no way 66 million people are going to vote in a General Election, roughly 60% vote, so that 13.1 million equates to about 33%, which as a base figure would almost be enough to create a majority, and if they played it right, with the help of the Brexit party, the Tories could achieve a 'landslide'!
Posted by: jock dock tower, September 10, 2019, 9:41am; Reply: 633
I constantly have to pinch myself to make sure I'm not living in some parallel universe where working class folk actually believe that their collective interests are best looked after by Rees Mogg and Johnson. Honestly, just how gullible could some folk be?

I also have to keep pinching myself to hear this crap about respecting the will of the people, and it's the fault of Remainers that we don't already have some kind of deal. Simple maths.....the Tory government and the DUP gave May the majority she needed to get BREXIT sorted. She even agreed to all the nonsense the ERG told her about red lines, to secure the best deal from the EU. That she lost this deal three times is the fault of the Tory government, nobody else, especially Johnson and Mogg, who voted twice to scupper it and once for it. There's political shenanigans for you, eh? If the Tories had voted for the deal, bad as it was because of the ERG imposed red lines, even Johnson acknowledged there would be susbequent negotiations over time when they could have achieved better.

We are where we are. We even have Amber Rudd resigning from government because Johnson expelled 21 ministers. It's a pity she didn't show the same consideration when her own department, when she was Home Secretary, expelled thousands of the Windrush Generation. Never mind, she was apopleptic with anger because these were Tory "moderates" Aye, f*cking right they were, they voted for the austerity measures that saw hundreds of thousands of folk unnecessarily forced into destitution and foodbanks. Would "moderates" really vote for such austerity measures as the DWP rules that deem terminally ill people fit for work and remove their benefits?

I've waited a lifetime for this moment, to see the Tories tear themselves apart. I'm relishing every minute of their anguish, of Johnson's bumbling mumbling nonsense that clearly show he's unfit for office. Just hope it ends quicker for them once we have the General Election at a time of our choosing. That would be the ultimate indignity.
Posted by: chaos33, September 10, 2019, 11:05am; Reply: 634
Agree
Posted by: grimsby pete, September 10, 2019, 12:21pm; Reply: 635
Quoted from jock dock tower


I've waited a lifetime for this moment, to see the Tories tear themselves apart. I'm relishing every minute of their anguish, of Johnson's bumbling mumbling nonsense that clearly show he's unfit for office. Just hope it ends quicker for them once we have the General Election at a time of our choosing. That would be the ultimate indignity.


I hope it goes on a little longer John as I am enjoying watching Boris antics nearly as much as watching Trump coming out with his frequent tweets. ;D

Not sure myself who will win when the next election comes along as Corbyn is not my cup of tea and he is not a lot of others favourite to be PM but he does have a lot of support from the left,

Both you and I know for a party to win they have to take the middle ground and at the moment I am not sure who will win that battle.

Posted by: jock dock tower, September 10, 2019, 4:19pm; Reply: 636
Pete, ask yourself this. If Corbyn isn't your cup of tea, is Johnson? If the answer to Johnson is no there's only one way to vote to ensure the over privileged spoilt brat doesn't get back in, and that's for him.

How has your view of him developed? Most likely from the right wing press reports that constantly harp on about how unfit for office he is. If that's the case they're running scared of him, and with just cause. He's seen off two Tory PMs, and he'll see off this third one because Johnson has the brain of somebody who has suffered from generations of inter breeding as his class look to protect themselves.

Johnson or Corbyn, Peter. Who?
Posted by: grimsby pete, September 10, 2019, 4:30pm; Reply: 637
If I had to choose right now I would abstain John,

So I will wait and see what wonderful things they say in their election manifestoes and decide then,


I presume you are voting SNP ?
Posted by: grimsby pete, September 10, 2019, 6:15pm; Reply: 638
I would like to add I do not buy a newspaper I can make my own mind up and not influenced by other people  ( media ) views.

Posted by: mariner91, September 10, 2019, 8:49pm; Reply: 639
Quoted from Grimbiggs
Your maths is about as good as Diane Abbot's. Theres no way 66 million people are going to vote in a General Election, roughly 60% vote, so that 13.1 million equates to about 33%, which as a base figure would almost be enough to create a majority, and if they played it right, with the help of the Brexit party, the Tories could achieve a 'landslide'!


Regardless of how you dress it up it is not the will of the people when nowhere near 50% of the population want a no deal brexit. Only take in to account people who vote, do whatever you want with your skewed stats but if you think the majority of the people in the United Kingdom want a no deal brexit then you've got shit for brains.
Posted by: grimsby pete, September 10, 2019, 10:24pm; Reply: 640
Quoted from mariner91


Regardless of how you dress it up it is not the will of the people when nowhere near 50% of the population want a no deal brexit. Only take in to account people who vote, do whatever you want with your skewed stats but if you think the majority of the people in the United Kingdom want a no deal brexit then you've got shit for brains.


You do tend to get carry away with your arguments 91,

I hope you are more calm when extracting teeth. ;)
Posted by: chaos33, September 11, 2019, 6:14pm; Reply: 641
The majority of people in this country do not understand the real complexity of brexit. They cannot or will not see the advantages and disadvantages of staying in the EU or leaving it as they have finished opinions and received ideas and political preferences and prejudices.

The referendum, which was  ‘advisory’ and not ‘binding’ ( if it had been binding the result would be void as the brexit campaign was judged to be unlawful and financially irregular) did not give people a chance to form informed opinions as it was stuffed with lies, misinformation, scaremongering etc on both sides. The vote is therefore meaningless. The so called ‘will of the people’ is a little over half - not really a majority in referendum terms and we know that the question itself was flawed and the supporting information false. The will of half of the people is hollow and the the other half are apparently of no consequence and to be ignored.  

Since then, some people have been able to reflect, research, take stock, gather better information on likely outcomes for and against and you know what......it’s still impossible to decide!

What’s clear, is that you can’t have a brexit that people who believe in brexit, say isn’t a proper brexit. That kills a compromise deal (or more properly, a withdrawal agreement), like May’s or any other. Anyone who thinks that Johnson can negotiate a ‘hard brexit’ deal with the EU is an utter fool, and politicians that try to kid people on that it can be done are contemptuous and half the reason why we’re in this mess.

What would I do then? - I’d cancel brexit having realised it can’t be delivered or agreed upon, and, more importantly, won’t address any of the real problems this country faces, only make them worse  - environment, geopolitical tensions, manufacturing, jobs, housing, crime, poverty, underinvestment in  public services, benefits, health etc and I’d set out a programme of government like the post-war ‘contract with the people’ to reunite British people and restore our national infrastructure, communities, health, wealth and happiness.

Beer anyone...?  :)
Posted by: Marinerz93, September 11, 2019, 7:50pm; Reply: 642
The referendum, which was  ‘advisory’ and not ‘binding  

Begone remoaner, not legally binding but promised outcome to be honoured.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, September 11, 2019, 8:27pm; Reply: 643
Official Yellowhammer docs - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/831199/20190802_Latest_Yellowhammer_Planning_assumptions_CDL.pdf

Sounds just like what Farage and Johnson promised
Posted by: LH, September 11, 2019, 8:45pm; Reply: 644
“Her Majesty’s government will act lawfully and in accordance with the rule of law”.

::)
Posted by: chaos33, September 11, 2019, 9:18pm; Reply: 645
Quoted from Marinerz93
The referendum, which was  ‘advisory’ and not ‘binding  

Begone remoaner, not legally binding but promised outcome to be honoured.


Politicians pledged to honour it.  More fool them. It was an advisory referendum and that’s a fact.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, September 11, 2019, 9:42pm; Reply: 646
Another aspect of this whole sorry mess, which really pisses me off is the disaster capitalists funding Boris Johnson - https://bylinetimes.com/2019/09/11/brexit-disaster-capitalism-8-billion-bet-on-no-deal-crash-out-by-boris-johnsons-leave-backers/
Posted by: LH, September 11, 2019, 9:50pm; Reply: 647
The Times also running something about 2000 job losses nationally due to two refineries shutting and becoming fuel terminals after the bottom of British fuel falls out. I wonder where there are two refineries with infrastructure in place to become fuel terminals?

Edit: just seen this is from a few weeks back.
Posted by: codcheeky, September 11, 2019, 9:51pm; Reply: 648
Quoted from Marinerz93
The referendum, which was  ‘advisory’ and not ‘binding  

Begone remoaner, not legally binding but promised outcome to be honoured.


Clown
Posted by: chaos33, September 12, 2019, 6:35am; Reply: 649
Quoted from Marinerz93
The referendum, which was  ‘advisory’ and not ‘binding  

Begone remoaner, not legally binding but promised outcome to be honoured.


Have you read Yellowhammer?
Posted by: Maringer, September 12, 2019, 12:09pm; Reply: 650
The Yellowhammer report which has just been released had the bit about refineries redacted. Almost certainly to stop people panic-buying and hoarding fuel. Only problem is that the journalist who received the original leak in August has reported what they said about this. Word will get out and we'll have a run on fuel once again...

Interesting to note that the original leak said all this stuff was the 'base scenario' whereas the new release is apparently a worst case situation. Was the original report produced to see what the worst case was likely to be or are the government spinning to try and modify the narrative now they have been forced to release the information?

I know which option my money is on.
Posted by: Marinerz93, September 12, 2019, 10:40pm; Reply: 651
Quoted from chaos33


Politicians pledged to honour it.  More fool them. It was an advisory referendum and that’s a fact.


All referendums are advisory, the difference here is that all parties pledged to honour the outcome, fact, so that would probably explain why more people voted in it than ever before, otherwise what was the point of spending tax payers money on something they would never carry out. The majority advised the Politicians they no longer wanted to be run by Brussels, don't worry the turncoats in parliament will scupper democracy and you'll get your remoaning wish of staying in the EU. Strange that they have such conviction in what they are doing but showing no substance of carrying it forward with a general election.

Posted by: Marinerz93, September 13, 2019, 12:12am; Reply: 652
Quoted from codcheeky


Clown


Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, September 13, 2019, 7:37am; Reply: 653
Quoted from Marinerz93


All referendums are advisory, the difference here is that all parties pledged to honour the outcome, fact, so that would probably explain why more people voted in it than ever before, otherwise what was the point of spending tax payers money on something they would never carry out. The majority advised the Politicians they no longer wanted to be run by Brussels, don't worry the turncoats in parliament will scupper democracy and you'll get your remoaning wish of staying in the EU. Strange that they have such conviction in what they are doing but showing no substance of carrying it forward with a general election.



If you have no deal at one end of the spectrum and Revoke A50 at the other end, the only sensible solution is a middle ground deal along the lines of a custom union. I think most remainers would accept this as an outcome but not sure the leavers would. The outrage from remainers currently is because BJ has tried to strong arm us out with no deal based on a load of lies and dodgy practices.
Posted by: Maringer, September 13, 2019, 8:37am; Reply: 654
One problem with remaining in a customs union for Brexiteers is that it  is pretty obvious that the door would then stay open for a relatively straightforward return into the embrace of the EU at a later date. That and the fact that we would have to allow free movement.

The fact that our economy needs young immigrants to keep it ticking over due to our otherwise aging population is a point which seems to have eluded many Brexiteers. Assuming we leave the EU, we're still going to need many thousands of them and, if the Europeans don't want to come any longer, they'll keep on coming from Africa and Asia in the required numbers. Not something many Brexiteers will be pleased to see, I'm guessing.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, September 13, 2019, 1:37pm; Reply: 655
Quoted from chaos33
But there are. People going ‘just get it done’. I wish to make this life changing decision on a ‘run out of patience’ and ‘a ‘frustrated at not having understood the balance of the relevant  complex issues contained herein’ basis!’ Leave means leave! Even if it’s tantamount to smashing ourselves in the face with an iron anvil and then throwing myself off a cliff, I want brexit. It’s the will of (some of) the people! Tune in to any radio show or tv debate and it’s stuffed with bigoted, inarticulate, ill informed, unbalanced oafs expressing the above.

To have democracy you need to be able to make ‘informed decisions’. This isn’t the case here.

There isn’t a ‘deal’. There never was and there never will be. This is a legal and technical matter, and not a business transaction and the EU have treated it as such, you’ll note. Stay or leave. Up to you. There are years and years of complex technical diplomatic, trade and political arrangements that would befit a discussion on how we might extract ourselves. The idea that you just walk away from your responsibilities without sorting out what the future holds is the territory of the nutjob. And yet, the media and the public go on and on about a ‘deal’ or ‘no deal’ like it was buying a car or a f***ing game show, and the least statesmanlike leader we’ve ever had goes on repeating empty platitudes and crass sound bytes and that’s it.
Look at the stark contrast evident today between Varadkar and Johnson. One of them articulate, measured, informed, statesmanlike....the other one Boris Johnson.
What a national embarrassment.

We are now in farce land, and the world looks on and concludes - what a set of fools!


My first thought when I saw the highlighted part?

Smugness personified ….David Cameron who fecked it all up and then fecked right off

I see he's been given the chance to put his side of the story.....

https://www.facebook.com/itv/videos/2632834656736017/

As Catherine Tate's nan character used to say " what a king liberty"    :(
Posted by: Marinerz93, September 14, 2019, 5:45pm; Reply: 656
Quoted from Maringer
One problem with remaining in a customs union for Brexiteers is that it  is pretty obvious that the door would then stay open for a relatively straightforward return into the embrace of the EU at a later date. That and the fact that we would have to allow free movement.

The fact that our economy needs young immigrants to keep it ticking over due to our otherwise aging population is a point which seems to have eluded many Brexiteers. Assuming we leave the EU, we're still going to need many thousands of them and, if the Europeans don't want to come any longer, they'll keep on coming from Africa and Asia in the required numbers. Not something many Brexiteers will be pleased to see, I'm guessing.


I wouldn't want a customs union that puts us in a position were we can't do trade with the rest of the world, the EU is protectionist and if one of the EU countries stands to lose trade because a country outside the EU has undercut them, the EU would block that trade.

The UK needs immigrants, especially skilled and young. These people could still come into the UK under a Australia type immigration policy, if we need them they get in for a set amount of time. What we don't want is free movement of unchecked criminals and unskilled workers, these could be filtered out using an Australian type immigration policy what is wrong with that.

If after a period of time the majority of people want to re-join the EU then the majority gets their democracy up held, just give it 20 years to make sure all the old racists have died out and that also gives the remoaners time to breed like rabbits.
Posted by: hheh2, September 23, 2019, 12:37am; Reply: 657
We voted out from becoming a colony of a wannabe superstate, that is a good thing. Look how the USA turned out!
Posted by: Rik e B, September 23, 2019, 11:29pm; Reply: 658
Because USA leaders and rules always been decided on by unelected bureaucrats in shady backroom meetings just like the EU 🤔😅
Posted by: hheh2, September 23, 2019, 11:42pm; Reply: 659
Quoted from Rik e B
Because USA leaders and rules always been decided on by unelected bureaucrats in shady backroom meetings just like the EU 🤔😅


USA rejected European overseers to their great benefit after the Empire emposed higher taxes on them.

EU are the same Europeans that want to rule for ruling sake. Best to leave.

Posted by: LH, September 24, 2019, 10:49am; Reply: 660
Quoted from LH
“Her Majesty’s government will act lawfully and in accordance with the rule of law”.

::)


HAHAHAHA
Posted by: Ipswin, September 24, 2019, 10:51am; Reply: 661
Well that Supreme Court ruling just stuffed it right up the blond buffoon Great news
Posted by: Manchester Mariner, September 24, 2019, 11:05am; Reply: 662
Quoted from Ipswin
Well that Supreme Court ruling just stuffed it right up the blond buffoon Great news


Do you still get your head chopped off for lying to the queen?
Posted by: CairnsMariner, September 24, 2019, 11:45am; Reply: 663
Once again, British politics more interesting than anything on Australian TV (okay, that's not that hard). Enjoyed that so much I had to pop open a bottle of French champagne. Pretty damning from Lady Hale - hopefully a platform upon which the stopping of Brexit can be built. À votre santé.
Posted by: Ipswin, September 24, 2019, 11:47am; Reply: 664
Quoted from Manchester Mariner


Do you still get your head chopped off for lying to the queen?


Oh I wish, it would save Boris from being 'dead in a ditch' An execution could be televised live from the Tower, imagine the world wide viewing figures.


Posted by: grimsby pete, September 24, 2019, 12:20pm; Reply: 665
Quoted from CairnsMariner
Once again, British politics more interesting than anything on Australian TV (okay, that's not that hard). Enjoyed that so much I had to pop open a bottle of French champagne. Pretty damning from Lady Hale - hopefully a platform upon which the stopping of Brexit can be built. À votre santé.


Just goes to prove our politics are the laughing stock of the world.

Big big changes need to be made very soon.
Posted by: Manchester Mariner, September 24, 2019, 12:55pm; Reply: 666
Quoted from grimsby pete


Just goes to prove our politics are the laughing stock of the world.

Big big changes need to be made very soon.


They really do but people generally just seem either apathetic to politics or just like having a moan about the council/stuff on the news but when it comes to the crunch they just stick to the status quo. Nobody remembers that referendum in 2011 when we had the chance to vote for an 'Alternative Vote' system, it was rejected by 67% of voters with a 42% turnout. If only they could've got a bus with a slogan involved.
Posted by: chaos33, September 24, 2019, 1:47pm; Reply: 667
Quoted from CairnsMariner
Once again, British politics more interesting than anything on Australian TV (okay, that's not that hard). Enjoyed that so much I had to pop open a bottle of French champagne. Pretty damning from Lady Hale - hopefully a platform upon which the stopping of Brexit can be built. À votre santé.


Isn’t ‘French Champagne’ a tautology?
Posted by: CairnsMariner, September 24, 2019, 2:29pm; Reply: 668
Quoted from chaos33


Isn’t ‘French Champagne’ a tautology?


It is, yes. But then my bottle of François isn't actually champagne, just a bottle of French fizz (I was just using a lazy Queensland colloquialism for such). The Hollandia I've moved onto is proper though (i think) and still suitably European.
Posted by: Ipswin, September 24, 2019, 4:04pm; Reply: 669
Quoted from Manchester Mariner


If only they could've got a bus with a slogan involved.


A bus with a misleading and blatantly untruthful slogan you mean

Posted by: Manchester Mariner, September 24, 2019, 6:53pm; Reply: 670
Quoted from Ipswin


A bus with a misleading and blatantly untruthful slogan you mean



Johnson stands by the 350 million a week to the NHS claim though. Weird he didn't mention it to that sick childs father berating him in the hospital last week, the hospital visit he was doing that he said wasn't for the press but was being filmed by the press.
Posted by: grimsby pete, September 27, 2019, 10:40am; Reply: 671
Things if they were not bad enough are just getting worse with the antics of our so called representatives , even if Boris comes back with a deal he will never get it through parliament with so much hatred being banded about.

What we need is a time machine and go back to before Cameron gave the country the choice to leave and he gets run over by a bus before he had such a bright idea to have a referendum .
Posted by: chaos33, September 28, 2019, 1:26pm; Reply: 672
There won’t be a deal. You can’t do a brexit that those who advocate brexit say isn’t a proper brexit. Johnson, of course, is happy to go on insulting the British population pretending that this is what he’s working towards. Anyone who thinks that a hardline brexiteer can strike a deal and have it voted through when a soft brexiteer couldn’t Is off their rocker. The EU will not deal with Johnson, full stop. They will go on with the technical and legal process in Brussels and they won’t kid their citizens on.

The 31st will come around and we’ll see if this dispicable government will break the law and force the no deal position. Then watch it get messy.
Posted by: Grimbiggs, September 28, 2019, 6:05pm; Reply: 673
Quoted from chaos33
There won’t be a deal. You can’t do a brexit that those who advocate brexit say isn’t a proper brexit. Johnson, of course, is happy to go on insulting the British population pretending that this is what he’s working towards. Anyone who thinks that a hardline brexiteer can strike a deal and have it voted through when a soft brexiteer couldn’t Is off their rocker. The EU will not deal with Johnson, full stop. They will go on with the technical and legal process in Brussels and they won’t kid their citizens on.

The 31st will come around and we’ll see if this dispicable government will break the law and force the no deal position. Then watch it get messy.


They may be breaking the law, but at least they'll be honouring the result of the referendum!....Bravo to Boris if he has the balls to do it.

Posted by: chaos33, September 28, 2019, 7:12pm; Reply: 674
Sorry yeah, the very same rich and unscrupulous people who spun you a load of lies to skew the result of the referendum will be breaking the law again to honour the outcome?!

If I were you, I’d be taking a step back and thinking.....hang on, I seem to be aligning myself with proven liars, back stabbers and self servers like Johnson, and Gove and Farage......maybe I haven’t called this right...:-/
Posted by: Grimbiggs, September 28, 2019, 8:59pm; Reply: 675
What do you mean like the self serving Corbyn, who will do anything to get into power, or maybe even Blair, who never tells lies! Oh, I forgot about the war in Iraq!..I just wish you and the rest of the remoaners would give it a rest, and accept the result of the referendum....let the people decide in a general election, and get rid of this rotten opposition, who have got nothing better to do than stop Brexit!
Posted by: chaos33, September 28, 2019, 9:23pm; Reply: 676
Johnson - now there’s a man who’d do anything to get in to power. Never mind the lies and the dishonour. Make a joke out of it! A man of no principles and a cabinet who burned theirs for a job! Yep - you line up with those if you like.

I’m no Corbyn fan and I’m certainly not a Blair fan but I think it’s best to take a balanced view, keep an open mind, do some research etc. Brexit is palpably a terrible idea at the moment, and I’m something of a Euro sceptic. I think it’s wise not to say that most people want to ‘just get it done’ when what they actually want is to ‘make it go away’. If we carry on with this act of national self harm it won’t be going away. It’s just the beginning.
Anyway.....it’s all slipping away...and the eventual election or referendum will dispatch this collection of hateful frauds who got us into this mess. That’s my belief. Even if it does mean another non majority coalition.
Posted by: grimsby pete, September 29, 2019, 10:24am; Reply: 677
I think 99% of all  MP.s are there for themselves not for us.

OK maybe 99% is a little high so let's settle for 90% .
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, September 30, 2019, 1:35pm; Reply: 678
Quoted from Manchester Mariner


Johnson stands by the 350 million a week to the NHS claim though. Weird he didn't mention it to that sick childs father berating him in the hospital last week, the hospital visit he was doing that he said wasn't for the press but was being filmed by the press.


I don't think that the slogan on the bus actually stated that all of the £350 million per week allegedly being paid to the EU would be given to the NHS instead ?

From what I can see the wording was" Let's fund our NHS instead".... no amount mentioned as to how much of that £350m, so it could have been any old amount?

A cunning way of making people think that's what might happen if we were to leave.. two separate statements but an automatic assumption that the two were one?



Posted by: KingstonMariner, October 1, 2019, 12:04am; Reply: 679
I go away with my wife and younger children on 30 October to an EU country and come back a week later. As things stand I wonder what paperwork they'll need to be allowed back in to the UK? Anyone know?

The girls were born here but as we weren't married at the time, the easier thing to do was to get them passports for their mother's homeland. It wasn't an issue at the time or when we came to renew them last time around.

Not a massive issue in the scheme of things but a fuckingballache I could do without.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, October 1, 2019, 12:14am; Reply: 680
Oh, another thing. Question for the nationalists out there. How come nationalist organisations and followers are so keen on protecting our 'indigenous culture' and are so worried about losing our distinctive identity but they're are not protesting about Americanisation?

I mean, no one is picketing shops selling tat for Halloween or telling Trick or Treaters to go back to where they came from. How about abusing people in the street for wearing jeans and teeshirts, or slagging off rock bands for betraying their native musical heritage?

Funny that. Who'd have expected such principled people to be so inconsistent.
Posted by: Croxton, October 1, 2019, 7:14pm; Reply: 681
I'm calling out HOME BARGAINS (Hillsborough) for not only binning off the garden items to have two aisles of Halloween garbage but also another two for Christmas stock. That was a week ago. More exploitation of those families who can least afford it.
Bought my shears from Band Q.

I dislike many aspects of our Americanised culture. Don't get me started on Guy Fawkes night and fireworks. Anyone who gives a penny for the guy is guilty of child abuse or grooming terrorists at the very least.
Posted by: Marinerz93, October 2, 2019, 6:41pm; Reply: 682
Quoted from KingstonMariner
Oh, another thing. Question for the nationalists out there. How come nationalist organisations and followers are so keen on protecting our 'indigenous culture' and are so worried about losing our distinctive identity but they're are not protesting about Americanisation?

I mean, no one is picketing shops selling tat for Halloween or telling Trick or Treaters to go back to where they came from. How about abusing people in the street for wearing jeans and teeshirts, or slagging off rock bands for betraying their native musical heritage?

Funny that. Who'd have expected such principled people to be so inconsistent.


Thursday, October 31. It originated with the ancient Celtic festival of Samhain, when people would light bonfires and wear costumes to ward off ghosts. Popular culture will always influence other societies regardless of where they are, from Greeks, Romans, British and Americans, if something is popular, people will buy into it. You wouldn't be complaining if everyone was walking around with onions around their necks and a baguettes under the arms saying oh he on would you europhile.

You claim to want democracy yet you and every cry baby remoaner is doing everything in their power from moaning about how unfair it is the result didn't go their way to completely undermining the vote of over 17 million people. Shove that in your corn cob pipe.

Posted by: chaos33, October 2, 2019, 9:31pm; Reply: 683
Obtuse doesn’t touch it. Are you actually real, or a bot?!?
Posted by: KingstonMariner, October 13, 2019, 10:54am; Reply: 684
Quoted from Marinerz93


Thursday, October 31. It originated with the ancient Celtic festival of Samhain, when people would light bonfires and wear costumes to ward off ghosts. Popular culture will always influence other societies regardless of where they are, from Greeks, Romans, British and Americans, if something is popular, people will buy into it. You wouldn't be complaining if everyone was walking around with onions around their necks and a baguettes under the arms saying oh he on would you europhile.

You claim to want democracy yet you and every cry baby remoaner is doing everything in their power from moaning about how unfair it is the result didn't go their way to completely undermining the vote of over 17 million people. Shove that in your corn cob pipe.



I’m pointing out inconsistent you people are. You moan about the culture being swamped. Now you say you are happy if people adopt American customs but imply you wouldn’t be happy for people to adopt French ones. Talk about mixed up!!

The fact you then blather on about Celtic festivals in the context of Americanisation of Halloween, just shows you miss the frigging point.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, October 13, 2019, 11:16am; Reply: 685
PS you might want to take your tongue out of Uncle Sam’s bottom because it’s muddling up your perspective. And when you do pull it out you can stop tugging your forelock to toffs like Farage, Rees-Mogg and Johnson. It’s really not becoming for sturdy ‘independent-minded’ folk.
Posted by: Marinerz93, October 13, 2019, 12:46pm; Reply: 686
Quoted from KingstonMariner


I’m pointing out inconsistent you people are. You moan about the culture being swamped. Now you say you are happy if people adopt American customs but imply you wouldn’t be happy for people to adopt French ones. Talk about mixed up!!

The fact you then blather on about Celtic festivals in the context of Americanisation of Halloween, just shows you miss the frigging point.


You people,  ;D

blather on about Celtic festivals in the context of Americanisation of Halloween, just shows you miss the frigging point  ;D

Oh, another thing. Question for the nationalists out there. How come nationalist organisations and followers are so keen on protecting our 'indigenous culture' and are so worried about losing our distinctive identity but they're are not protesting about Americanisation?

I mean, no one is picketing shops selling tat for Halloween or telling Trick or Treaters to go back to where they came from. How about abusing people in the street for wearing jeans and teeshirts, or slagging off rock bands for betraying their native musical heritage?

Funny that. Who'd have expected such principled people to be so inconsistent.


Trick or treating didn't emerge in the states until 1927, were this was already a custom here so who is influencing who.  

Just goes to show you that you remoaners are so deperate and the hypocrisy and desperation in remoaning is getting worse the closer to Brexit deadline we get. The post you quote was reply a to Americanisation, Halloween is an ancient Celtic custom that developed in the UK, through history it has changed and was taken across the pond to transform yet again. Popular culture no matter where it comes from will always find roots in any civilization in any form be it mannerisms, decorating their homes to shopping. In the UK it was widely reported in the history books that people in the UK were Romanised well before the Romans invaded the UK, stick that in your corn cob pipe remoaner. In case you forget it is a British trait that we take something and develop it, something that is deep embedded in our culture. So it stands to reason something that started here was further developed comes back as part of it was already in our culture.

I haven't adopted any American customs unless them came from my parents, I have kept with the customs I grew up with, I don't follow the covering the house in lights at Christmas or Halloween and it doesn't bother me that others do, I don't get were you are coming from America has far more in common with the UK than any other country in the EU so it stands to reason some of it's culture would rub off on the UK,  American football was a thing for a while but it soon faded away, baseball is not a thing here although Basket ball is, it is still a minor sport in the UK,. I don't have thanks giving and if riding around on bikes with stripped jumpers with onions around your neck became a thing in the UK I'll look forward to laughing at you and the rest of you europhiles, shouting oh he on whilst going down Grimsby road.

European influence on me,music one band - Rammstein, food - Halloumi, pizza but not a lot else is of an influence on me considering the size of Europe, and I lived in Cyprus for 6 years, where as American influence would be music and films, tv series.

You try and create an argument citing nationalists, yet your argument is flawed and has more holes in it than Swiss cheese, some European influence in there for you love so much, so go cry in your cappuccino (more European influence, I bet you are loving this) .

You cry about Americanisation, yet hate your country enough to want it to be run from Brussels, that's a bit anti British but I guess that goes hand in hand with your anti democracy view too.

Posted by: arryarryarry, October 14, 2019, 12:03am; Reply: 687
Quoted from KingstonMariner
Oh, another thing. Question for the nationalists out there. How come nationalist organisations and followers are so keen on protecting our 'indigenous culture' and are so worried about losing our distinctive identity but they're are not protesting about Americanisation?

I mean, no one is picketing shops selling tat for Halloween or telling Trick or Treaters to go back to where they came from. How about abusing people in the street for wearing jeans and teeshirts, or slagging off rock bands for betraying their native musical heritage?

Funny that. Who'd have expected such principled people to be so inconsistent.


1) I doubt there are many American trick or treaters going round the streets of my little Town, I would bet you any money they are locals so they are where they are they don't have to go back anywhere, seems a very silly comment to me.

2) I haven't read all this thread so I have no idea about people complaining about our "indigenous culture"

3) So far I haven't been able to get a doctors appointment because of a halloween costume.

4) I have yet to meet a halloween costume that is buying up houses in my town and turning them into HMOs.

Posted by: Maringer, October 16, 2019, 8:00am; Reply: 688
So, as expected, it looks as though we've admitted that there will have to be a customs border down the Irish Sea because of the GFA and common sense. Blindingly obvious to everybody that this would be the case but I wonder what the payoff for the DUP to support it will be this time? It sounds as though there will be some weasel wording which pretends that NI somehow remains part of the UK customs union but this will, of course, be nonsense. I wonder how Johnson will try to spin this as some sort of a triumph? Dishonestly, of course, but how exactly. If NI benefit from remaining inside the EU customs union, it won't be long before the Scots secede and join them. Wales too, possibly. That will be rather more difficult.

What a shambles.
Posted by: grimsby pete, October 16, 2019, 11:20am; Reply: 689
There will not be an agreement even if we get one with the EU there are enough MP's who will vote against it so we will be no further forward,

Either Boris will break the law and take us out on the 31st or there will be an election which will take place before the end of yet another extension,

We can only hope one side will get enough MPs to either take us out or revoke article 50.

Most people are sick to the teeth of listening about Brexit every day.
Posted by: Maringer, October 16, 2019, 10:27pm; Reply: 690
There's talk that the government is negotiating in bad faith. Making promises about NI to get a deal through (to try and win a subsequent election), which they have no intention of honouring. If this is indeed the case, it should be shown by the way the DUP/ERG headbangers respond.

If the DUP acquiesce, I reckon it's a con job. They'll have been told we don't really intend to honour any promises made, which would, of course come back to bite us in the backside in a major way - you aren't going to get favourable trade deals from other countries if you've already shown you aren't interested in following agreements. If the DUP complain, but the ERG back Johnson in any case (they really don't care one jot about NI), then perhaps there is serious intent behind the 'plan', whatever the details may be.

Will be interesting to see how parliament respond if the deal is put to the vote. I'd doubt that those backing a confirmatory vote would have the clout to get it through parliament, even if they had some way of getting it to a vote. Assuming the deal is then passed, my guess would be that the Brexit Party will find a way to be unhappy with the outcome (Farage's ego would demand it) so it would be amusing if Johnson missed out on a majority in the coming election thanks to the Kippers.
Posted by: Maringer, October 17, 2019, 12:02pm; Reply: 691
So, a deal has been agreed. Not with the support of the DUP so that's their votes gone. Will the ERG-ers ignore their stated principle of following the DUP to back the government in a vote? Quite possibly, because as has been noted, they really don't give a toss about NI.

On the face of things, it seems like a worse deal than that negotiated by May so it seems unlikely that Parliament will pass it so perhaps Johnson really is trying to deliberately force through a no deal Brexit, despite his claims otherwise? Let's face it, he's not exactly known for his honesty so wouldn't be a surprise. "It wasn't me, it was those nasty politicians".

It will be interesting to see what Parliament does now. It actually wouldn't surprise me if enough Tories (past and present) put party before country once more and hold their noses to vote it through in an attempt to regain power in a snap election. Bevan really wasn't wrong about a lot of them. They'll need to be assisted by some of the Labour/former Labour MPs but there are plenty of useful idiots around.

As I've said in the past, I'd be happy enough for any deal to be put to a confirmatory referendum, so let's see if this can somehow make its way through parliament.

On another note, the Royal Mail is more than doubling their surcharge for international deliveries to 6.5%, citing Brexit uncertainty (and the subsequent devaluation of the pound) as the reasoning behind this. Great stuff, eh? Brexit really is the gift that keeps on taking for businesses.
Posted by: grimsby pete, October 17, 2019, 2:26pm; Reply: 692
Does Boris still have the backing of the 23 MPs he sacked if he does not he will have no chance of getting the deal through.
Posted by: LH, October 17, 2019, 10:20pm; Reply: 693
Isn’t this basically the same deal May put forward (minus NI) Johnson resigned over last year?
Posted by: Maringer, October 18, 2019, 12:01am; Reply: 694
Apparently, the political declaration is the dodgy bit. They are throwing NI under a bus as expected, but the changes to the PD make it clear we'll be diverging greatly from EU rules and regs. In other words, we'll be ending up as the 51st state in all but name.

The Tory headbangers think this is a good thing - heck, they've already decided to copy the Voter ID nonsense to disenfranchise the poorest. Next step, voting machines. Gah.  :o
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, October 18, 2019, 1:29pm; Reply: 695
Quoted from Maringer
Apparently, the political declaration is the dodgy bit. They are throwing NI under a bus as expected, but the changes to the PD make it clear we'll be diverging greatly from EU rules and regs. In other words, we'll be ending up as the 51st state in all but name.

The Tory headbangers think this is a good thing - heck, they've already decided to copy the Voter ID nonsense to disenfranchise the poorest. Next step, voting machines. Gah.  :o


Maybe we are heading towards being in the pocket of the US.... if their businesses can see opportunities to be exploited here, I'm sure they will take them

It does annoy me though when there's scaremongering from politicians here...… last night on Question Time there was a Labour representative stating that in the US they only have 10 days annual holiday and that we should be concerned that this would become our norm

I just cannot see that happening at all.... everyone who is in work in the UK, just blindly accepting they will have to work another two-three-even four extra weeks for nothing?

It would never get approval and if a party tried to implement that, they'd soon be shown the door I'm sure
Posted by: LH, October 18, 2019, 1:37pm; Reply: 696
Quoted from FishOutOfWater


Maybe we are heading towards being in the pocket of the US.... if their businesses can see opportunities to be exploited here, I'm sure they will take them

It does annoy me though when there's scaremongering from politicians here...… last night on Question Time there was a Labour representative stating that in the US they only have 10 days annual holiday and that we should be concerned that this would become our norm

I just cannot see that happening at all.... everyone who is in work in the UK, just blindly accepting they will have to work another two-three-even four extra weeks for nothing?

It would never get approval and if a party tried to implement that, they'd soon be shown the door I'm sure


There are people who will blindly vote for whatever party a newspaper tells them to vote for regardless of policy. That’s why it’ll be able to happen.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, October 18, 2019, 1:58pm; Reply: 697
Quoted from LH


There are people who will blindly vote for whatever party a newspaper tells them to vote for regardless of policy. That’s why it’ll be able to happen.


My view is people can be / will be swayed by pre-election "promises" ( or should we call them lies ) but seriously.... if someone has it in their manifesto that workers holidays,  currently a statutory 20 days, would be cut in half as blind as people are, they'd be absolutely crazy to go with that.
Posted by: Maringer, October 18, 2019, 2:51pm; Reply: 698
FOOW, I think it's cute that you still think the Tories election manifestos bear any semblance to their actual plans.  ;)

Just look back to 2010 especially and even 2015. Half the stuff they did afterwards didn't get a mention in the manifesto. Heck, they completely reorganised the way the NHS was structured at the cost of billions and this wasn't mentioned in the slightest before the election.

Ultimately, they are becoming more and more like the Republicans, doing the bidding of their millionaire/billionaire funders with less and less embarrassment each time they are elected. People will believe any old shite that The Sun/Mail/Express/Telegraph tell them, regardless of how far from the truth it actually is.
Posted by: hheh2, October 18, 2019, 6:12pm; Reply: 699
I voted Brexit to spite the way things are being run in this country by the Gov+Eu, that seemed to have worked because issues I care about like controlling our own immigration is finally being dealt with.

The thing is Boris is actually electable whereas Jeremy isn't, maybe in Iran he is.
Posted by: LH, October 18, 2019, 8:47pm; Reply: 700
Quoted from hheh2
I voted Brexit to spite the way things are being run in this country by the Gov+Eu, that seemed to have worked because issues I care about like controlling our own immigration is finally being dealt with.

The thing is Boris is actually electable whereas Jeremy isn't, maybe in Iran he is.


Controlling immigration? According to Look North tonight 85% of migrants in Lincolnshire will become illegal immigrants overnight on 31/10 as it stands as they haven’t applied for settled status.
Posted by: Rodley Mariner, October 18, 2019, 9:10pm; Reply: 701
Yeah Johnson, Farage and Rees Mogg just want to look after us regular folk and our day to day lives and concerns. All they're bothered about, people like that. Definitely won't be looking to inflate their hedge funds by crashing the pound or creating a free market economy where they can treat workers like excrement on their shoes. Not a chance.
Posted by: Bawmariner, October 18, 2019, 10:06pm; Reply: 702
Quoted from hheh2
I voted Brexit to spite the way things are being run in this country by the Gov+Eu, that seemed to have worked because issues I care about like controlling our own immigration is finally being dealt with.

The thing is Boris is actually electable whereas Jeremy isn't, maybe in Iran he is.


Controlling immigration? The country gets as much control over immigration from the EU as it currently has. Yes free movement to the UK has ended but it hasn't to the Republic of Ireland. All EU citizens have to do is jump on a plane to Dublin, travel for an hour on a bus and they are in the UK. Once there they won't be declaring themselves to the authorities and won't be paying tax. We won't have a clue who is the country without immigration checks at the Northern Ireland boarder. At least currently everybody goes through passport control.
Posted by: LH, October 19, 2019, 8:40pm; Reply: 703
I see serial winner Boris Johnson did it again today and has the cheek to blame the HoC for delaying Brexit (despite picking his ball up and sending all his mates home).
Posted by: Grimbiggs, October 20, 2019, 12:55pm; Reply: 704
It's funny how the remoaners deride Johnson on everything he does, yet in every opinion poll in every category, even the under 24's, he is infinately more popular / trustworthy than Corbyn....lets have a General Election and confine this rotten opposition to the dustbin once and for all...what are all you left wingers afraid of, bring it on!
Posted by: malkamalka, October 20, 2019, 2:06pm; Reply: 705
Quoted from Grimbiggs
It's funny how the remoaners deride Johnson on everything he does, yet in every opinion poll in every category, even the under 24's, he is infinately more popular / trustworthy than Corbyn....lets have a General Election and confine this rotten opposition to the dustbin once and for all...what are all you left wingers afraid of, bring it on!


You assume a lot by suggesting that ALL remainers (get the spelling right) are left wingers. I was in London yesterday, and the protesters are from all political backgrounds, and some, like myself, have no particular alliance. One thing that did stand out as that EVERY speaker, from all parties, gave the rally "facts" not slogans. I too don't want Jeremy Corbyn as prime minister, but I don't want any of those sneering, snarling, lying Tories either. Kier Starmer would be the stand out candidate for PM for me, not only because he is anti Brexit, but because he recognises the threat to our NHS, Trading Agreements and most of all, that the Tories just want to deliver on their promise to Trump to crash the UK economy, and deliver us to the USA as the 51st state.

The problem here is that consecutive Conservative government's have lied about the facts. This because, they don't actually have any facts. All they can bleat is "will of the people", a term coined by the Right Wing politiciaians in power and presented to the "Leave" group to use to drive that Right wing movement. This is a tactic used by Adolf Hitler, to stir up the masses against the minorities in their communities.

Maybe the Tories too, want to give Remainers little yellow stars on blue backgrounds, so that they can be rounded up and got rid of.

+


Posted by: Grimbiggs, October 20, 2019, 2:55pm; Reply: 706
Remoaners is the correct terminology!....people who won't accept the result of the referendum result.Attaching themeselves to the so called 'People Vote' has killed their chances of ever getting a majority at the next General Election, so I wouldn't worry about Keir Starmer being the next PM!
Posted by: Maringer, October 20, 2019, 9:17pm; Reply: 707
If you're for democracy, you must surely be for a second referendum on whatever final deal is agreed. After all, a couple of million people who weren't allowed to vote in 2016 are now of voting age and the outcome, whichever way it goes, will affect them. On the other hand, the best part of 2 million voters from 2016 are now dead so nothing can affect them any longer.

In comparison, in a general election, the electorate get an immediate outcome from their vote. Pretty ridiculous that some consider the votes of the deceased sacrosanct but the votes of the young irrelevant.
Posted by: grimsby pete, October 21, 2019, 1:36pm; Reply: 708
Quoted from Maringer
If you're for democracy, you must surely be for a second referendum on whatever final deal is agreed. After all, a couple of million people who weren't allowed to vote in 2016 are now of voting age and the outcome, whichever way it goes, will affect them. On the other hand, the best part of 2 million voters from 2016 are now dead so nothing can affect them any longer.

In comparison, in a general election, the electorate get an immediate outcome from their vote. Pretty ridiculous that some consider the votes of the deceased sacrosanct but the votes of the young irrelevant.


Its only the remainers who want another vote , your argument can be said for any general election.

A labour candidate wins by one vote so the cons LD and other voters are all losers  and not thought about again.

During the term of the said MPs reign people who could not vote become old enough and others sadly die.

BUT

Can they demand another vote after say 3 years ? No they can not they have to lump like you remainers have to.

Boris will get us out and we will be better for it.
Posted by: Limerick Mariner, October 21, 2019, 4:03pm; Reply: 709
Can we sign John Bercow as defensive coach once he leaves his current job on 31st October. An absolute master at breaking up attacks on parliamentary sovereignty...
Posted by: Maringer, October 21, 2019, 5:18pm; Reply: 710
Quoted from grimsby pete


Its only the remainers who want another vote , your argument can be said for any general election.



Don't be daft. There's a general election every 5 years (or less, as we've seen). We can't do the hokey-cokey with EU membership.

Tell me, Pete, are you happy that the 2 million or so voters who have come of age since 2016 don't get any say about their future as EU citizens? They were born as EU citizens with the associated benefits and are having this stripped from them without any say in the matter. Shouldn't they get a say in the matter when a deal is finally negotiated and on the table?

It's not about 'winning' or 'losing', it's about getting a decision which reflects the will of the current electorate. If the vote is still to leave (which is a possibility), then at least we would now know what we're voting for and the people who are making the decision are those who will have to live with the effects of the choice.

Your man, Rees-Mogg once said a confirmatory referendum was a good idea. Perhaps the only sensible thing he's ever said. Let's make him right about somethig for a change.  ;)
Posted by: Limerick Mariner, October 21, 2019, 5:46pm; Reply: 711
Quoted from Maringer


Don't be daft. There's a general election every 5 years (or less, as we've seen). We can't do the hokey-cokey with EU membership.

Tell me, Pete, are you happy that the 2 million or so voters who have come of age since 2016 don't get any say about their future as EU citizens? They were born as EU citizens with the associated benefits and are having this stripped from them without any say in the matter. Shouldn't they get a say in the matter when a deal is finally negotiated and on the table?

It's not about 'winning' or 'losing', it's about getting a decision which reflects the will of the current electorate. If the vote is still to leave (which is a possibility), then at least we would now know what we're voting for and the people who are making the decision are those who will have to live with the effects of the choice.

Your man, Rees-Mogg once said a confirmatory referendum was a good idea. Perhaps the only sensible thing he's ever said. Let's make him right about somethig for a change.  ;)


There is even more need for a confirmatory referendum now. The current Conservative and Unionist
Party deal draws a border down the Irish Sea - this will accelerate a united Ireland (which I think is an inevitable end but, for the sake of the peace process, needs to happen organically in a fully democratic way). Hastening the break up of the Union wasn't debated pre-referendum and wasn't on the radar of the vast majority of the English electorate. The vast majority probably don't care and wouldn't have changed their vote, but they should have been told - the wet-dream Brexit of the Leave campaign is fundamentally at odds with the Good Friday Agreement. The GFA is a Treaty, a contract, the Referendum is advisory in law, doesn't matter what Cameron said, he lied.  
Posted by: grimsby pete, October 21, 2019, 7:08pm; Reply: 712
if  we have another referendum and the result is for remain I will except the result unlike a lot of remainers.
Posted by: Limerick Mariner, October 21, 2019, 11:38pm; Reply: 713
Quoted from grimsby pete
if  we have another referendum and the result is for remain I will except the result unlike a lot of remainers.
I'd suggest you would find that more remainers would have accepted a brexit that could have been achieved within a year of the vote than the leavers that would have accepted it...the EEA plus Customs Union brexit. Arguments that it is not brexit are factually incorrect - it is leaving the EU. It would have got through Parliament and a majority of the electorate would have accepted it. The reason it wasn't put forward was solely because it wouldn't be a Tory brexit. If Cameron or May had put it forward and whipped it maybe 50% of Tory MPs would have backed it. A majority of Labour MPs would have backed it, and the SNP would have backed it. The EU would have agreed to a temporary brake on freedom of movement if pressed on it to get it through (the only reason Leave won IMHO).  Brexit failure to date is nothing to do with Parliamentary blocking, it is down to 3 and a half years Tory party red lines to satisfy 60 or so fanatical MPs and the 100k old farts who make up Tory party membership. They've now conveniently rubbed out one red line and claimed Boris is hero, when all he's done is the dirty on the DUP. If Boris plan goes through what will he say if the UVF kick off, then the new IRA retaliate and the province is in flames again - lie and blame someone else like he always does...

Posted by: grimsby pete, October 22, 2019, 9:34am; Reply: 714
Quoted from Maringer


Don't be daft. There's a general election every 5 years (or less, as we've seen). We can't do the hokey-cokey with EU membership.                     You are the daft one if you think another referendum would satisfy all the population and if remain win the leavers will be demanding another referendum a bit like the Scots who will not accept a result unless it goes their way.

Tell me, Pete, are you happy that the 2 million or so voters who have come of age since 2016 don't get any say about their future as EU citizens? They were born as EU citizens with the associated benefits and are having this stripped from them without any say in the matter. Shouldn't they get a say in the matter when a deal is finally negotiated and on the table?
Where do you stop ?  we had a one off referendum and got a result but maybe we should have one every year until we vote remain and then that's final.

It's not about 'winning' or 'losing', it's about getting a decision which reflects the will of the current electorate.  

What happens if the vote is even closer this time but still votes to leave  do we have another vote in 2 years ?
If not that would be unfair according to your reckoning .

Your man, Rees-Mogg        My man ?   why do you say that ?  I have voted Labour more times than   Consevatives


Posted by: codcheeky, October 22, 2019, 10:35am; Reply: 715
Quoted from codcheeky


That’s what May thought, as to anyone being less trustworthy than Bozo that is a Joke, the man has been sacked twice for lying and even his own family don’t trust him
3 years ago Johnson was pro EU but calculated supporting Brexit would be better for him personally, Corbyn has always been more against the EU than Johnson, and labelling all objecting to this form of Brexit that will see the break up of the UK re-moaners or people anti democratic because they would like a democratic vote is crazy. I voted leave and would welcome a vote on the type of exit, there is absolutely no doubt Brexit would have been done and dusted if May hadn’t pretended her election had never happened and realised a deal agreed by
Parliament rather than a minority Government was always going to be hard work to get through


Posted by: grimsby pete, October 22, 2019, 12:27pm; Reply: 716
If all the remainers bloody stopped whinging and honoured a second referendum I for one think we should have another one.

BUT

They wont they will still moan about not being in the EU anymore.
Posted by: Maringer, October 22, 2019, 1:32pm; Reply: 717
What else does your crystal ball say, Pete?

If a confirmatory referendum did take place and the Electoral Commission properly policed the expenditure of the campaigns this time around (no untraceable money funnelled in through Northern Ireland this time, thanks) then nobody could complain about the outcome. Some might bemoan it, but it should be accepted.

A less supine BBC willing to call out dishonesty in claims and outright lies made by politicians (of either side, naturally), would also be helpful in the event of a confirmatory referendum. The papers would be printing enough lies as it stands and, no doubt, facebook would be awash with them so it would be useful if the national broadcaster did its job properly.
Posted by: Limerick Mariner, October 22, 2019, 2:55pm; Reply: 718
Quoted from Maringer
What else does your crystal ball say, Pete?

If a confirmatory referendum did take place and the Electoral Commission properly policed the expenditure of the campaigns this time around (no untraceable money funnelled in through Northern Ireland this time, thanks) then nobody could complain about the outcome. Some might bemoan it, but it should be accepted.

A less supine BBC willing to call out dishonesty in claims and outright lies made by politicians (of either side, naturally), would also be helpful in the event of a confirmatory referendum. The papers would be printing enough lies as it stands and, no doubt, facebook would be awash with them so it would be useful if the national broadcaster did its job properly.


And, importantly, mobilise the youth vote...
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, October 22, 2019, 3:53pm; Reply: 719
Quoted from Maringer
What else does your crystal ball say, Pete?

If a confirmatory referendum did take place and the Electoral Commission properly policed the expenditure of the campaigns this time around (no untraceable money funnelled in through Northern Ireland this time, thanks) then nobody could complain about the outcome. Some might bemoan it, but it should be accepted.

A less supine BBC willing to call out dishonesty in claims and outright lies made by politicians (of either side, naturally), would also be helpful in the event of a confirmatory referendum. The papers would be printing enough lies as it stands and, no doubt, facebook would be awash with them so it would be useful if the national broadcaster did its job properly.


I think you'll find they're more comfortable sugar-coating and white-washing anything to do with the royal family  ::)
Posted by: Marinerz93, October 22, 2019, 7:13pm; Reply: 720
Quoted from Maringer
What else does your crystal ball say, Pete?

If a confirmatory referendum did take place and the Electoral Commission properly policed the expenditure of the campaigns this time around (no untraceable money funnelled in through Northern Ireland this time, thanks) then nobody could complain about the outcome. Some might bemoan it, but it should be accepted.

A less supine BBC willing to call out dishonesty in claims and outright lies made by politicians (of either side, naturally), would also be helpful in the event of a confirmatory referendum. The papers would be printing enough lies as it stands and, no doubt, facebook would be awash with them so it would be useful if the national broadcaster did its job properly.


Can we have the same apply to Soros and his schill Miller, and if we shoot down that squadron of flying pigs maybe just maybe we will have some neutral representation in the media and press instead of the pro remain bias we have suffered for years, especially the BBC with programs such as Question Time.
Posted by: Maringer, October 22, 2019, 9:51pm; Reply: 721
Ha ha. You mentioned Soros, for some bizarre reason. Whacky stuff as usual.

Neutral representation in the media? Just what exactly do you think the Express, Mail, Telegraph, Sun and to a lesser extent, the Sunday Times and Times do?
Posted by: barralad, October 23, 2019, 11:25pm; Reply: 722
Quoted from Marinerz93


Can we have the same apply to Soros and his schill Miller, and if we shoot down that squadron of flying pigs maybe just maybe we will have some neutral representation in the media and press instead of the pro remain bias we have suffered for years, especially the BBC with programs such as Question Time.


This is irony right? Where is the balanced press? Most of our media is owned by foreign billionaires who have a great deal to gain from a no deal particularly Brexit...the BBC is a strange one I'll give you that although an old mate of mine who is in a senior position there explains it thus. "We must be doing something right because both the Left and the Right reckon we're biased"
Posted by: Marinerz93, October 25, 2019, 9:33pm; Reply: 723
Quoted from Maringer
Ha ha. You mentioned Soros, for some bizarre reason. Whacky stuff as usual.

Neutral representation in the media? Just what exactly do you think the Express, Mail, Telegraph, Sun and to a lesser extent, the Sunday Times and Times do?


I was replying to your post where you said "(no untraceable money funnelled in through Northern Ireland this time, thanks)" to add balance that money for remain was coming from sources determined to undermine democracy, open society is just as questionable. Your reply was to be expected, as Melchett often says...Baaah

Posted by: Marinerz93, October 25, 2019, 9:55pm; Reply: 724
Quoted from barralad


This is irony right? Where is the balanced press? Most of our media is owned by foreign billionaires who have a great deal to gain from a no deal particularly Brexit...the BBC is a strange one I'll give you that although an old mate of mine who is in a senior position there explains it thus. "We must be doing something right because both the Left and the Right reckon we're biased"


Back in March  the BBC was told they will face sanctions and fines from its new regulator unless it ends its Brexit bias.

This was confirmed by Ofcom’s handling of their first major BBC-rooted complaint – a submission which in great detail tracked the composition of 25 BBC1 Question Time panels and found that 22 of them had more supporters of ‘Remain’ than ‘Leave’. The Content Board rejected the complaint by considering in detail only one of the programmes. The core ruling was that Damian Green, then work and pensions minister, had adequately put the Leave perspective.

So because Damian Green put across a reasoned counter argument in one programme it's declared fair , what happened to being non bias, even though it has been highlighted that out of 25 airings of Question time 22 of of those were weighted for remain. I like watching Question time mainly to hear what special guests have to say and to see how the audience reacts to what is being said, which the majority of audiences are for leave.

Maybe your friend can point me to the information that highlights how the BBC is pro Brexit.
Posted by: codcheeky, October 26, 2019, 10:19am; Reply: 725
Quoted from barralad


This is irony right? Where is the balanced press? Most of our media is owned by foreign billionaires who have a great deal to gain from a no deal particularly Brexit...the BBC is a strange one I'll give you that although an old mate of mine who is in a senior position there explains it thus. "We must be doing something right because both the Left and the Right reckon we're biased"


If staff didn’t go backwards and forwards regularly from the BBC to the Tory Party you would have more of a point!
Posted by: arryarryarry, October 27, 2019, 1:37pm; Reply: 726
Quoted from malkamalka


You assume a lot by suggesting that ALL remainers (get the spelling right) are left wingers. I was in London yesterday, and the protesters are from all political backgrounds, and some, like myself, have no particular alliance. One thing that did stand out as that EVERY speaker, from all parties, gave the rally "facts" not slogans. I too don't want Jeremy Corbyn as prime minister, but I don't want any of those sneering, snarling, lying Tories either. Kier Starmer would be the stand out candidate for PM for me, not only because he is anti Brexit, but because he recognises the threat to our NHS, Trading Agreements and most of all, that the Tories just want to deliver on their promise to Trump to crash the UK economy, and deliver us to the USA as the 51st state.

The problem here is that consecutive Conservative government's have lied about the facts. This because, they don't actually have any facts. All they can bleat is "will of the people", a term coined by the Right Wing politiciaians in power and presented to the "Leave" group to use to drive that Right wing movement. This is a tactic used by Adolf Hitler, to stir up the masses against the minorities in their communities.

Maybe the Tories too, want to give Remainers little yellow stars on blue backgrounds, so that they can be rounded up and got rid of.

+




If it's liars you want :-



Also don't forget those lying twits Blair and Campbell, oh and Major lied to his wife whilst shagging Edwina Currie.

Posted by: FishOutOfWater, October 27, 2019, 2:20pm; Reply: 727
Quoted from arryarryarry


If it's liars you want :-



Also don't forget those lying twits Blair and Campbell, oh and Major lied to his wife whilst shagging Edwina Currie.



Got me wondering what he told her.... " I need to call in and get some eggs on the way home dearest. Won't be too late back "   ;)
Posted by: grimsby pete, October 27, 2019, 5:18pm; Reply: 728
Some want an election and some want a referendum.

So why don't they have it on the same day even on the same ballot paper,

You vote for who you want then you have 3 choices,

Remain

Leave with that deal

Abstain  I have lost the will to live.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, October 28, 2019, 12:23am; Reply: 729
We’d have ‘got Brexit done’ by now if we had grown up politics like in countries like most of Northern Europe where they’re used to cross party deals because they have to due to having PR systems. The government should have formed a team from the main parties and ensured buy in. Especially as it’s a long term matter like pensions. It needs cross party support. It’s the normal course in any complicated negotiation process to get all your stakeholders aligned. Of course we wouldn’t have had May’s (or Davies’ or Johnson’s) stupid red lines and left ourselves more room for manoeuvre. There’d be no excuse to delay or back out. It would have been a softer Brexit but it would have commanded wider support in the Commons and the country.
Posted by: arryarryarry, October 28, 2019, 1:16am; Reply: 730
Quoted from KingstonMariner
We’d have ‘got Brexit done’ by now if we had grown up politics like in countries like most of Northern Europe where they’re used to cross party deals because they have to due to having PR systems. The government should have formed a team from the main parties and ensured buy in. Especially as it’s a long term matter like pensions. It needs cross party support. It’s the normal course in any complicated negotiation process to get all your stakeholders aligned. Of course we wouldn’t have had May’s (or Davies’ or Johnson’s) stupid red lines and left ourselves more room for manoeuvre. There’d be no excuse to delay or back out. It would have been a softer Brexit but it would have commanded wider support in the Commons and the country.


Would a wider support in the commons have led to a softer Brexit as neither the Lib Dems or the SNP and plenty in the Labour Party don't want to leave the EU at all.

As for wider support in the country, I doubt it as any softer Brexit would have meant staying in the customs union and the single market which in my opinion would not be accepted by anyone who voted to leave.
Posted by: codcheeky, October 28, 2019, 7:42am; Reply: 731
Quoted from arryarryarry


Would a wider support in the commons have led to a softer Brexit as neither the Lib Dems or the SNP and plenty in the Labour Party don't want to leave the EU at all.

As for wider support in the country, I doubt it as any softer Brexit would have meant staying in the customs union and the single market which in my opinion would not be accepted by anyone who voted to leave.


I voted leave and would accept these things, a Norway type deal is what I thought we would end up with and hope we still do, slashing food standards and privatisation of the NHS are not what I voted leave for
Posted by: arryarryarry, October 28, 2019, 11:13am; Reply: 732
Quoted from codcheeky


I voted leave and would accept these things, a Norway type deal is what I thought we would end up with and hope we still do, slashing food standards and privatisation of the NHS are not what I voted leave for


Continuing having to accept EU rules and regulations and freedom of movement is not leaving the EU.

Oh and what the frig has privatisation of the NHS got to do with the NHS?
Posted by: Maringer, October 28, 2019, 1:37pm; Reply: 733
Quoted from arryarryarry


Oh and what the frig has privatisation of the NHS got to do with the NHS?


I assume you mean what has it got to do with the EU.

The bunch of shysters currently in government include the authors of this brain dead ultra-libertarian bullcrap:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Unchained

They don't think anything should be nationalised because the 'market always knows best'. This is clearly nonsense in areas where there is a natural monopoly but no amount of evidence will ever persuade them of this.

Once we're out of the EU with the hard brexit they desire, we'll be going cap in hand to the Yanks who will absolutely insist on their healthcare companies having access to parts of the NHS before agreeing any sort of a trade deal. We'll be caught between a rock and a hard place and won't have any option but to accede.

The likes of Truss, Patel and Raab are so seriously hard of thinking about this area (and most things, judging by some of their comments) that their 'vision' of the way things should be run in the UK is likely to be more damaging than the act of leaving the EU itself.
Posted by: Maringer, October 30, 2019, 11:26am; Reply: 734
And so it begins:

https://www.channel4.com/press/news/trumps-plan-nhs-channel-4-dispatches
Posted by: monkeyboy, November 4, 2019, 8:02am; Reply: 735
Used to vote Labour, not any more.  Total open door policy for immigration is what most voted against in the referendum including myself.
Sorry but i am anti immigration especially the unskilled.
Take a look at London, the place is overrun by foreigners and with the help of the snowflake PC brigade it is destroying our way of life.
Multiculturalism my bottom.

P.S before you scream racist i am not, i have no prejudice based on colour.
I do however think that some religions do not integrate with our own and is proving so.

Really dislike Corbyn he is power mad.
Posted by: Maringer, November 4, 2019, 9:42am; Reply: 736
Corbyn power mad? In comparison to Johnson?

Crazy stuff.
Posted by: grimsby pete, November 4, 2019, 11:52am; Reply: 737
Quoted from Maringer
Corbyn power mad? In comparison to Johnson?

Crazy stuff.


They are all the same they are not in power for us but for themselves.
Posted by: codcheeky, November 4, 2019, 1:26pm; Reply: 738
Quoted from monkeyboy
Used to vote Labour, not any more.  Total open door policy for immigration is what most voted against in the referendum including myself.
Sorry but i am anti immigration especially the unskilled.
Take a look at London, the place is overrun by foreigners and with the help of the snowflake PC brigade it is destroying our way of life.
Multiculturalism my bottom.

P.S before you scream racist i am not, i have no prejudice based on colour.
I do however think that some religions do not integrate with our own and is proving so.

Really dislike Corbyn he is power mad.


The Tories have been in power for 9 years and let record numbers of immigrants in between 2010 and 2016 without providing sufficient infrastructure yet you appear not to want to vote for change.
Who will you vote for? And how do you think are that party will help you and your community? One backed by tax dodging billionaires ?
I live in London, my wife is one of them there foreigners,  London is a fantastic place to live , why do you think so many move here from Grimsby? Most enjoy the multi cultures, tolerance and diversity London is renowned for.
What makes you think Corbyn is power mad
Posted by: pizzzza, November 4, 2019, 1:27pm; Reply: 739
Is it pronounced Br-ek-sit or Br-eggs-it?

Keep hearing both and I want to make sure I'm saying it right.
Posted by: monkeyboy, November 4, 2019, 1:45pm; Reply: 740
Quoted from codcheeky


The Tories have been in power for 9 years and let record numbers of immigrants in between 2010 and 2016 without providing sufficient infrastructure yet you appear not to want to vote for change.
Who will you vote for? And how do you think are that party will help you and your community? One backed by tax dodging billionaires ?
I live in London, my wife is one of them there foreigners,  London is a fantastic place to live , why do you think so many move here from Grimsby? Most enjoy the multi cultures, tolerance and diversity London is renowned for.
What makes you think Corbyn is power mad


So clearly you are one of the left wing snowflake loonies , im not going to argue what and why because we will most definitely not agree.
Its amazing the amount of people that go that way once they have a wife thats foreign, hardly likely to say much else.
Posted by: grimsby pete, November 4, 2019, 3:27pm; Reply: 741
Quoted from monkeyboy


So clearly you are one of the left wing snowflake loonies , im not going to argue what and why because we will most definitely not agree.
Its amazing the amount of people that go that way once they have a wide thats foreign, hardly likely to say much else.


I am married to a half wide  ;D

BUT

Her other half is Grimsby through and through.
Posted by: Maringer, November 4, 2019, 3:30pm; Reply: 742
Bear in mind, of course, that we were always able to limit immigration from outside of the EU (which made up 50% of the figure) but the coalition never even attempted to do anything about this. Mainly, I'd imagine, because we didn't want to pay to train our own medical staff but preferred to nick them from poorer countries instead.

In fact, there were a number of choices which could have limited immigration from other EU countries which simply weren't implemented. Almost certainly because the goverments knew that doing so would harm the economy.
Posted by: monkeyboy, November 4, 2019, 3:42pm; Reply: 743
Quoted from grimsby pete


I am married to a half wide  ;D

BUT

Her other half is Grimsby through and through.


Well spotted, i was working at the time so didnt check the words.
Glad you spotted it as one of the left wing remoaners would have called me uneducated thicko for doing it while i earn a wage so they can sit at home while i pay for it.
Posted by: codcheeky, November 4, 2019, 5:04pm; Reply: 744
Quoted from monkeyboy


Well spotted, i was working at the time so didnt check the words.
Glad you spotted it as one of the left wing remoaners would have called me uneducated thicko for doing it while i earn a wage so they can sit at home while i pay for it.


I am certainly not a remainer, not sure about a snowflake, not really sure what one is, perhaps you can define it, you seem to be the one full of envy against those of us sat at home, don’t think I am politically particularly left wing although a lot further left than Boris or Nigel, Last 3 elections I have voted Lib Dem green and Labour. Not a member of any party but voted for Andy Burnham in the Labour leadership election and Corbyn in the second one. I like Corbyn voting record against senseless wars and austerity, if you think Johnson and the Eton mob have the slightest interest in helping anyone but the well off you are in cuckoo land, maybe you believe in trickle down economics and are quite happy tugging the forelock and a few crumbs from the rich mans table?
Posted by: grimsby pete, November 4, 2019, 6:09pm; Reply: 745
Quoted from codcheeky


I am certainly not a remainer, not sure about a snowflake, not really sure what one is, perhaps you can define it, you seem to be the one full of envy against those of us sat at home, don’t think I am politically particularly left wing although a lot further left than Boris or Nigel, Last 3 elections I have voted Lib Dem green and Labour. Not a member of any party but voted for Andy Burnham in the Labour leadership election and Corbyn in the second one. I like Corbyn voting record against senseless wars and austerity, if you think Johnson and the Eton mob have the slightest interest in helping anyone but the well off you are in cuckoo land, maybe you believe in trickle down economics and are quite happy tugging the forelock and a few crumbs from the rich mans table?


Doesn't  Corbyn vote against everything. ?
Posted by: codcheeky, November 4, 2019, 7:19pm; Reply: 746
Quoted from grimsby pete


Doesn't  Corbyn vote against everything. ?


Most Tory nonsense I believe and a lot of Blair’s nonsenses too
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, November 5, 2019, 10:37pm; Reply: 747
Quoted from grimsby pete


I am married to a half wide  ;D

BUT

Her other half is Grimsby through and through.


My ex wife is a Yorkshire woman.... I should have known multi-culturalism wouldn't work out in the long run  ;)
Posted by: Maringer, November 6, 2019, 9:14am; Reply: 748
Did you attempt to integrate? Flat cap whippet, overweening sense of self-importance. That kind of thing? :)
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, November 6, 2019, 1:16pm; Reply: 749
Quoted from Maringer
Did you attempt to integrate? Flat cap whippet, overweening sense of self-importance. That kind of thing? :)


I embraced Yorkshire Tea & Yorkshire Puddings.... does that count?

Oh and I had an important Lincolnshire contribution to make when it was Toad in the Hole time  ;)
Posted by: chaos33, November 7, 2019, 9:24pm; Reply: 750
I think this analysis is spot on....

Posted by: Marinerz93, November 9, 2019, 12:39pm; Reply: 751
Quoted from grimsby pete


Doesn't  Corbyn vote against everything. ?


I think that by spending most of his life in opposition has meant that this has become ingrained into him so that this trait is hard to change.
Posted by: Marinerz93, November 9, 2019, 12:43pm; Reply: 752
Quoted from Maringer
Did you attempt to integrate? Flat cap whippet, overweening sense of self-importance. That kind of thing? :)


How do you know she is a lefty remoaner.
Posted by: pizzzza, November 12, 2019, 12:24pm; Reply: 753
Nige is coming to BP!

https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsby-news/nigel-farage-visit-grimsby-brexit-3527505

What a time to be alive...
Posted by: Chrisblor, November 12, 2019, 1:38pm; Reply: 754
I'll no longer be putting any more money into the club if they allow this to happen. Absolutely laughable they can promote initiatives like Kick It Out and Common Ground which are all about breaking down barriers, tackling discrimination and promoting community cohesion when they're letting a divisive xenophobe use Blundell Park as a backdrop for promoting his latest political vehicle.
Posted by: WHYWONTYOULETMESIGNUP, November 12, 2019, 4:07pm; Reply: 755
https://brexitcentral.com/why-the-brexit-party-maintains-that-boris-johnsons-deal-is-not-brexit/

hope someone asks him about this sudden uturn and not refunding 100s of brexit party campaigners who put their money into running in constituencies that they've now been pulled out of after being told boris' deal was not brexit, can't believe there isn't more uproar about it
Posted by: Maringer, November 12, 2019, 4:18pm; Reply: 756
https://brexitcentral.com/why-the-brexit-party-maintains-that-boris-johnsons-deal-is-not-brexit/

hope someone asks him about this sudden uturn and not refunding 100s of brexit party campaigners who put their money into running in constituencies that they've now been pulled out of after being told boris' deal was not brexit, can't believe there isn't more uproar about it


Hey, he's a man of the people* so he can clearly do no wrong! Drink a pint, Nige! That'll show 'em you're authentic!

(* Privately educated former commodities trader, a career politician for the past 20 years.)
Posted by: grimsby pete, November 12, 2019, 4:35pm; Reply: 757
Quoted from Maringer


Hey, he's a man of the people* so he can clearly do no wrong! Drink a pint, Nige! That'll show 'em you're authentic!

(* Privately educated former commodities trader, a career politician for the past 20 years.)


His plan is to split the vote even though he has pulled 317 candidates,

He does not want to lose his cushy job in the EU  with a very generous pension.
Posted by: Marinerz93, November 14, 2019, 3:13pm; Reply: 758
Remoaners

  ;D
Posted by: lew chaterleys lover, November 14, 2019, 6:27pm; Reply: 759
Quoted from Chrisblor
I'll no longer be putting any more money into the club if they allow this to happen. Absolutely laughable they can promote initiatives like Kick It Out and Common Ground which are all about breaking down barriers, tackling discrimination and promoting community cohesion when they're letting a divisive xenophobe use Blundell Park as a backdrop for promoting his latest political vehicle.


The Brexit party won the last UK wide election; why on earth shouldn't they be allowed to use BP for a meeting?  
Posted by: Marinerz93, November 14, 2019, 6:29pm; Reply: 760


The Brexit party won the last UK wide election; why on earth shouldn't they be allowed to use BP for a meeting?  


Posted by: Stadium, November 14, 2019, 9:47pm; Reply: 761
Cringeworthy, especially the shirts.

https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsby-news/live-nigel-farage-visits-grimsby-3537843

Posted by: Marinerz93, November 14, 2019, 10:18pm; Reply: 762
So no remoaners turned up to challenge Farage, too busy at home enjoying their EU unicorn rainbow ice cream, and crying on social media.

Posted by: Stadium, November 14, 2019, 10:47pm; Reply: 763
Quoted from Marinerz93
So no remoaners turned up to challenge Farage, too busy at home enjoying their EU unicorn rainbow ice cream, and crying on social media.



Are you seriously saying your happy to see gtfc endorse this??
Posted by: Marinerz93, November 14, 2019, 10:59pm; Reply: 764
Quoted from Stadium


Are you seriously saying your happy to see gtfc endorse this??


It looked like a full house to me and if the other parties were that bothered then they would have the same opportunity to do the same, so why not.

Posted by: Stadium, November 14, 2019, 11:04pm; Reply: 765
Quoted from Marinerz93


It looked like a full house to me and if the other parties were that bothered then they would have the same opportunity to do the same, so why not.



The question was around the club allowing it.
Interesting response & noted.
Posted by: lew chaterleys lover, November 21, 2019, 9:59pm; Reply: 766
Very interesting survation poll out today about voting intentions in Grimsby.

Labour down 18 points and the Brexit party up 17 from a standing start.

Looks like the Great Grimsby constituency will goto  the Conservatives, who sit on 44  which will be replicated all over the north and midlands I suspect in previous Labour heartlands.

Be interesting to see the actual result on the 12th. December.
Posted by: Maringer, November 22, 2019, 12:17pm; Reply: 767
If accurate, it will be Turkeys voting for Christmas. Beggars belief that a Town such as Grimsby could elect a Tory MP given all they've (not) done for the place over the years, but there you go. Seems quite possible in these times where common sense has departed and we have a one-topic election.

Ultimately, if there is a Tory majority in government the country will get what it deserves - it's not as if the presence of the Britannia Unchained crew in the cabinet doesn't show what to expect. Expect the hardest of brexits with these headbangers telling Johnson what to do. As usual, the poorest areas will be the ones hardest hit.

I just hope that nobody believes the ensuing claims about the EU/immigrants/others being to blame for any problems which then occur.
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, November 22, 2019, 4:50pm; Reply: 768
Very interesting survation poll out today about voting intentions in Grimsby.

Labour down 18 points and the Brexit party up 17 from a standing start.

Looks like the Great Grimsby constituency will goto  the Conservatives, who sit on 44  which will be replicated all over the north and midlands I suspect in previous Labour heartlands.

Be interesting to see the actual result on the 12th. December.


Just seen this article too

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/nigel-farage-track-securing-landslide-140900253.html

A long way to go to polling day of course so who can say for sure what might happen but certainly looks like there is something afoot in Grimsby
Posted by: Grimbiggs, November 22, 2019, 5:57pm; Reply: 769
Quoted from FishOutOfWater


Just seen this article too

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/nigel-farage-track-securing-landslide-140900253.html

A long way to go to polling day of course so who can say for sure what might happen but certainly looks like there is something afoot in Grimsby


What makes you think that?
These are not my words, but who can disagree.....'It generally happens when the so called opposition, the Labour party, allows itself to be taken over by the 2 pound punters the activists who end up running the party, along with whats left of the unions (landslide Len). They are incapable of learning from the past, as Blairs prince of darkness, Mandleson managed to control for a limited time only. It's the British 'working' and lower middle classes that suffer because they cant get a sensible, left of centre, labour government. So you're left with a bone head puppet like Corbyn and Michael Foot before him, who the British will not vote for in a million years.'
Posted by: Maringer, November 23, 2019, 12:04am; Reply: 770
Just to point out, for the umpteenth time that most of the Labour Party policies really wouldn't have looked much out of place in a Tory manifesto any time from the 1950s through to the 1970s. Nationalised utilities? Very normal (as they still are in much of the developed world today). Our railway franchises are operated by national railway companies of other countries. The extremism began with Thatcher and has continued since then. And what has happened in these years?



Why, household debt has increased threefold! A lot of this will be mortgages as the property boom and policy to not build enough houses has taken effect, but unsecured debt is also much higher:



Despite this, for some reason, when there is talk of increasing taxes on the very wealthiest in society to help pay for things or taking back the utilities into public hands, it's seen as some sort of crazy left-wing scheme. I just find it bizarre.
Posted by: Marinerz93, November 23, 2019, 3:04pm; Reply: 771
Makes me laugh when certain posters make comments about Conservatives, I've never known Grimsby to be any other than a labour stronghold, Wilsons Labour were in government (1974 to 1979 during the 3rd cod war of 1975. I know Icelands hold over NATO helped them get what they wanted but the Labour government of the day left those reliant on the fishing industry in the wind. In fact the Icelandic Government offered the British Government quotas that were almost equal to that being caught—at that time, British fishermen were catching about 130 million tonnes—which would have kept the industry going, but, as part of the agreement, the British Government refused. They are responsible for the decline of this once great Town, take a walk around the areas of town that were affluent and thriving and then come back with what labour have done for this town. Labour are a wolf in sheeps clothing let's best not mention war monger and now middle east peace envoy, set for life Blair.

It think it was a fish worker Lillian Bilocca who was one of the headscarf revolutionaries who campaigned for compensation for fisherman, not a labour MP and it wasn't until 2012 under a coalition government of Conservative and Lib Dems that the fishermen were offered compensation and an apology to fishermen who lost their livelihoods in the 1970s. More than 35 years after the workers lost their jobs, the £1,000 compensation offered to 2,500 fisherman was criticised for being insufficient and excessively delayed  People like, my dad, Grandad and other family relatives and many other fisherman and the like died well before this payment was made, and it wasn't the labour party. Conservatives don't care about anything outisde London and Labour just play on the fact Conservative don't care but have done fcuk all to make life better in the north, they can go fcuk themselves and take Corbyn with them, flipping snakes the lot.

Labour were in government but no compensation given until Conservatives and Lib Dems in 2012.
1974 to 1979
1997 to 2010

2012 - Conservative / Lib Dems offer apology and compensation, why are they apologising for Labours incompetence.
Posted by: grimsby pete, November 23, 2019, 7:19pm; Reply: 772
Could someone tell me how a 4 day week will not cost more as the Labour party says it will be paid by extra productivity ,,

How does a Doctor , Nurse  Postman, Bus Driver, Shop Worker and numerous other trades increase their productivity ?

Plus they say only the top 5% of earners will pay more tax but they are doing away with the marriage allowance as its unfair to the odd couples so that's a tax rise for most people.
Posted by: Maringer, November 23, 2019, 11:11pm; Reply: 773
Productivity in the UK is 20% or more lower than in the better performing countries. In fact, UK productivity has long been pretty poor in comparison to others. This is nothing to do with the hours worked - we do work long hours. The point is that if we can improve our productivity, we can work fewer hours whilst still creating the same amount of output. If you can get the same work done in 35 hours instead of 42, then why not do so and enjoy the additional time you have left over?

How do we improve productivity? If you're not so tired, you work more efficiently. That's an obvious fact, so working fewer hours can help there immediately. Other than that, our investment in technology and training has long been low in comparison to some other countries. Improve that and you should improve productivity. Enough to start a 4 day week? I'd be surprised as it's difficult in many industries (I certainly couldn't do my work in 4 days), but it's a nice aspiration to have. Some businesses are managing it already. Lucky them, I say.
Posted by: Marinerz93, November 24, 2019, 11:13am; Reply: 774
How can you improve productivity when certain jobs take 2-3 hours to do, by cutting the hours in this type of work is cutting down productivity. I manage around 24 engineers and I know who puts a full shift in and those who don't. It's the sick, lame and lazy ones (not genuine OH cases) who use the unions as a shield to get away with poor performances, I've even got a union rep doing the same. Labours idea doesn't stack up when you have a large amounts of people across the country in various industries who do the bare minimum.
Posted by: grimsby pete, November 24, 2019, 5:21pm; Reply: 775
Quoted from Maringer
  (I certainly couldn't do my work in 4 days), but it's a nice aspiration to have


You could if you spent less time on the Fishy.  ;) ;D

Posted by: Marinerz93, November 24, 2019, 5:22pm; Reply: 776
Quoted from grimsby pete


You could if you spent less time on the Fishy.  ;) ;D



I think we all fall under that Pete  ;D
Posted by: grimsby pete, November 24, 2019, 5:34pm; Reply: 777
Quoted from Marinerz93


I think we all fall under that Pete  ;D


Not me I work 24/7  365 days looking after my wife  ;D
Posted by: chaos33, November 24, 2019, 7:27pm; Reply: 778
You probably post more messages on the fishy than anyone else!
Posted by: Maringer, November 24, 2019, 9:08pm; Reply: 779
In my defence, I don't post much during the day so I'm not missing too much work time. Don't have a lunch break a few days a week either so I'm due the odd lapse. :)
Posted by: grimsby pete, November 24, 2019, 10:39pm; Reply: 780
Quoted from chaos33
You probably post more messages on the fishy than anyone else!


My excuse is I am retired and stuck at home most of the time.
Posted by: Limerick Mariner, November 25, 2019, 11:41pm; Reply: 781
From The Economist (the only newspaper left worth reading) this week. Labour Party central have fecked over Gy and Clee as bad as the Tories in the past (Prescott funneling the cash into Hull). But only the deluded can really think Bullshit Boris and sidekick hovering in the shadows gives a flying bit of old Etonian feck-rse about NE Lincs - its just the seat they want to help ram through their Tory hard Brexit.

The labour party has held Great Grimsby for 74 years. The Lincolnshire constituency’s past mps include Anthony Crosland, who wrote one of the party’s most important post-war texts, “The Future of Socialism”, and Austin Mitchell, who once claimed that Grimsby would vote Labour even if the party put up a “raving alcoholic sex paedophile”.

Yet the seat may be about to fall. A poll for The Economist by Survation suggests that the Conservatives lead Labour by fully 13 points (see chart). The usual caveats apply: local polling is tricky, the sample small and there are three weeks to go. But the big lead of the Tory candidate, Lia Nici (pictured), implies not only that Labour is in danger of losing one of its most dependable seats. It also suggests that Boris Johnson’s targeting of working-class, pro-Brexit towns in the north and the Midlands could well succeed. A realignment in British politics may be in the making.




Labour’s decades in charge of Grimsby have seen steep decline. In the 1950s the town was home to the biggest fishing fleet on earth. The docks were a thriving community of small factories making nets and fishing gear, busy shops and smokehouses. Trawlers packed the harbour, as the world’s biggest ice factory, built to provide crushed ice for ships, loomed over everything. Now many of Grimsby’s fine buildings are crumbling and its streets quiet.


The gutting of the fishing industry has devastated related trades (there were once eight jobs onshore for every one at sea). At 5.3%, Grimsby has one of Britain’s highest unemployment rates, and the social problems that go with it. Ex-fishermen can be found drinking in pubs at 9am. Drug gangs have set up in the homes of vulnerable people, a practice known as “cuckooing”.

Such decline has created a powerful feeling of being ignored by Westminster and taken for granted by Labour. Locals complain that “London” is more interested in wasting billions on white elephants like hs2, a railway connecting the capital to big northern cities, than in improving the dire local rail links. In so far as “they” notice the east coast at all, they spray money at Hull, on the Yorkshire side of the Humber (Grimbarians’ dislike of Londoners is as nothing compared with their disdain for “Yorkies”).

All this helped to persuade Grimsby to vote by more than 70% to leave the European Union, one of the highest shares in the country. Of the 70-odd constituencies that backed Brexit by more than 65%, the Tories already control 38; they now have their eye on the Labour-held remainder in the north and Midlands (see map).


Mr Johnson’s pro-Brexit message seems to resonate. Grimbarians blame the eu for destroying their fishing industry with its regime of quotas, and regard Brussels as the embodiment of faraway and out-of-touch power. There is also unease about immigration. Grimsby had almost none until an influx of eastern Europeans after 2004 to work in the one remaining bit of the fish industry, processing imported fish.

Locals have no time for Jeremy Corbyn, Labour’s leader. Three complaints are loudest: he is not a patriot; he is more interested in minorities than “people like us”; and he represents the hijacking of the Labour Party by London. Mr Mitchell expressed the sentiments of many locals when he recently urged people not to vote for Mr Corbyn and his “mob of cosmopolitan meritocrats who love the [eu] more than those at the bottom of society’s top-heavy heap”.

This has caused acute problems for Grimsby’s Labour mp, Melanie Onn. She has agonised over Brexit, backing Remain and repeatedly opposing Theresa May’s deal, before voting for Mr Johnson’s version. She was conveniently out of town for Mr Corbyn’s two visits to Grimsby. Christopher Barker, the local Brexit Party candidate, says he has searched the internet for pictures of her with her party leader, only to come up blank.

Can the Conservatives turn all this angst into victory? There are plenty of straws in the wind other than our poll. The Tories took control of the local council in May. They have found a good candidate in Ms Nici, who was brought up in Grimsby and worked in local television. She puts a positive spin on the town’s plight, admitting that it is “a bit rough around the edges” but pointing out that it has a legacy of mansions and parks from its glory days, and that it is embracing new technologies. The world’s biggest offshore wind farm, Dogger Bank, is being constructed off the coast. The Tories nevertheless face two hurdles.

The first is that the Brexit Party has a clear message and a dynamic candidate. Mr Barker is an outsider—he has a posh accent and Yorkshire roots—but he is battle-hardened from recent European elections and is eloquent (if wrong) in arguing that a no-deal Brexit would not only honour democracy but revive the fishing industry. The decision of his party to stand down in Tory-held seats has blunted its insurgent message—the 17% it scores in our poll is lower than the 25% notched up by its forerunner, the uk Independence Party, in 2015. But there is no doubt the Conservatives would rather the Brexit Party wasn’t there.


Their second hurdle is that, after three-quarters of a century, Labour has a powerful local machine. The Tories operate from a broom cupboard of an office, smaller even than the Brexit Party’s headquarters. Labour can call on the support of trade unions like Unite, which has an office in town. It can also remind voters that the party of Old Etonian Mr Johnson is even more culturally alien than the party of Islingtonian Mr Corbyn.

But the signs are that the Labour Party will need an extraordinarily successful campaign to retain this deepest-red of constituencies. Perhaps Ms Onn could do as her predecessor, Mr Mitchell, once did, and change her surname to Haddock. ■
Posted by: lew chaterleys lover, November 26, 2019, 1:59pm; Reply: 782
Quoted from Limerick Mariner
From The Economist (the only newspaper left worth reading) this week. Labour Party central have fecked over Gy and Clee as bad as the Tories in the past (Prescott funneling the cash into Hull). But only the deluded can really think Bullshit Boris and sidekick hovering in the shadows gives a flying bit of old Etonian feck-rse about NE Lincs - its just the seat they want to help ram through their Tory hard Brexit.

The labour party has held Great Grimsby for 74 years. The Lincolnshire constituency’s past mps include Anthony Crosland, who wrote one of the party’s most important post-war texts, “The Future of Socialism”, and Austin Mitchell, who once claimed that Grimsby would vote Labour even if the party put up a “raving alcoholic sex paedophile”.

Yet the seat may be about to fall. A poll for The Economist by Survation suggests that the Conservatives lead Labour by fully 13 points (see chart). The usual caveats apply: local polling is tricky, the sample small and there are three weeks to go. But the big lead of the Tory candidate, Lia Nici (pictured), implies not only that Labour is in danger of losing one of its most dependable seats. It also suggests that Boris Johnson’s targeting of working-class, pro-Brexit towns in the north and the Midlands could well succeed. A realignment in British politics may be in the making.




Labour’s decades in charge of Grimsby have seen steep decline. In the 1950s the town was home to the biggest fishing fleet on earth. The docks were a thriving community of small factories making nets and fishing gear, busy shops and smokehouses. Trawlers packed the harbour, as the world’s biggest ice factory, built to provide crushed ice for ships, loomed over everything. Now many of Grimsby’s fine buildings are crumbling and its streets quiet.


The gutting of the fishing industry has devastated related trades (there were once eight jobs onshore for every one at sea). At 5.3%, Grimsby has one of Britain’s highest unemployment rates, and the social problems that go with it. Ex-fishermen can be found drinking in pubs at 9am. Drug gangs have set up in the homes of vulnerable people, a practice known as “cuckooing”.

Such decline has created a powerful feeling of being ignored by Westminster and taken for granted by Labour. Locals complain that “London” is more interested in wasting billions on white elephants like hs2, a railway connecting the capital to big northern cities, than in improving the dire local rail links. In so far as “they” notice the east coast at all, they spray money at Hull, on the Yorkshire side of the Humber (Grimbarians’ dislike of Londoners is as nothing compared with their disdain for “Yorkies”).

All this helped to persuade Grimsby to vote by more than 70% to leave the European Union, one of the highest shares in the country. Of the 70-odd constituencies that backed Brexit by more than 65%, the Tories already control 38; they now have their eye on the Labour-held remainder in the north and Midlands (see map).


Mr Johnson’s pro-Brexit message seems to resonate. Grimbarians blame the eu for destroying their fishing industry with its regime of quotas, and regard Brussels as the embodiment of faraway and out-of-touch power. There is also unease about immigration. Grimsby had almost none until an influx of eastern Europeans after 2004 to work in the one remaining bit of the fish industry, processing imported fish.

Locals have no time for Jeremy Corbyn, Labour’s leader. Three complaints are loudest: he is not a patriot; he is more interested in minorities than “people like us”; and he represents the hijacking of the Labour Party by London. Mr Mitchell expressed the sentiments of many locals when he recently urged people not to vote for Mr Corbyn and his “mob of cosmopolitan meritocrats who love the [eu] more than those at the bottom of society’s top-heavy heap”.

This has caused acute problems for Grimsby’s Labour mp, Melanie Onn. She has agonised over Brexit, backing Remain and repeatedly opposing Theresa May’s deal, before voting for Mr Johnson’s version. She was conveniently out of town for Mr Corbyn’s two visits to Grimsby. Christopher Barker, the local Brexit Party candidate, says he has searched the internet for pictures of her with her party leader, only to come up blank.

Can the Conservatives turn all this angst into victory? There are plenty of straws in the wind other than our poll. The Tories took control of the local council in May. They have found a good candidate in Ms Nici, who was brought up in Grimsby and worked in local television. She puts a positive spin on the town’s plight, admitting that it is “a bit rough around the edges” but pointing out that it has a legacy of mansions and parks from its glory days, and that it is embracing new technologies. The world’s biggest offshore wind farm, Dogger Bank, is being constructed off the coast. The Tories nevertheless face two hurdles.

The first is that the Brexit Party has a clear message and a dynamic candidate. Mr Barker is an outsider—he has a posh accent and Yorkshire roots—but he is battle-hardened from recent European elections and is eloquent (if wrong) in arguing that a no-deal Brexit would not only honour democracy but revive the fishing industry. The decision of his party to stand down in Tory-held seats has blunted its insurgent message—the 17% it scores in our poll is lower than the 25% notched up by its forerunner, the uk Independence Party, in 2015. But there is no doubt the Conservatives would rather the Brexit Party wasn’t there.


Their second hurdle is that, after three-quarters of a century, Labour has a powerful local machine. The Tories operate from a broom cupboard of an office, smaller even than the Brexit Party’s headquarters. Labour can call on the support of trade unions like Unite, which has an office in town. It can also remind voters that the party of Old Etonian Mr Johnson is even more culturally alien than the party of Islingtonian Mr Corbyn.

But the signs are that the Labour Party will need an extraordinarily successful campaign to retain this deepest-red of constituencies. Perhaps Ms Onn could do as her predecessor, Mr Mitchell, once did, and change her surname to Haddock. ■


Well Grimsby voted 70% for Brexit, hard or otherwise.

That being the case, why shouldn't the majority of voters vote Conservative? As the Economist piece points out, Labour have not done Grimsby any favours even after all these years.

I don't suppose Boris does give a flying f**k about the area, but neither does Labour so the majority of voters who want Brexit will vote for the Conservatives, and good luck to them.  

Posted by: Marinerz93, November 26, 2019, 7:33pm; Reply: 783


Well Grimsby voted 70% for Brexit, hard or otherwise.

That being the case, why shouldn't the majority of voters vote Conservative? As the Economist piece points out, Labour have not done Grimsby any favours even after all these years.

I don't suppose Boris does give a flying f**k about the area, but neither does Labour so the majority of voters who want Brexit will vote for the Conservatives, and good luck to them.  



I see what you are saying but think too many Grimbarians are die hard labour voters that will never vote for the conservatives, especially the older members of the electorate, will either not vote or vote Brexit party, I see Conservative win Cleethorpes as usual and Brexit Party will win in Grimsby. Onns dilly dallying early on will cost her, she isn't as out and about as she should be or is this because she thinks she doesn't have to put the effort in as Grimsby has been labour for the last 70+ years. This election could be the lowest turnout for decades.

Those who think Corbyn cares about the working class need to look at him in the cold light of day, I wouldn't trust him to clear up after my dogs, he'd get excrement everywhere, and I have medium size and a small dogs.
Posted by: Grimbiggs, November 26, 2019, 10:37pm; Reply: 784
No chance of Brexit party winning any seat anywhere in the country, fortunately what they will do though is split the Labour vote....disgrunted remain Tories will only switch to the Lib Dems, and that will be in small numbers, as Swinson has had a poor campaign. No change in what I predicted a couple of months ago, and that is for a landslide tory victory, as they're the only party that wants to honour the referendum result...Bravo!
Posted by: lew chaterleys lover, November 27, 2019, 10:42am; Reply: 785
Quoted from Marinerz93


I see what you are saying but think too many Grimbarians are die hard labour voters that will never vote for the conservatives, especially the older members of the electorate, will either not vote or vote Brexit party, I see Conservative win Cleethorpes as usual and Brexit Party will win in Grimsby. Onns dilly dallying early on will cost her, she isn't as out and about as she should be or is this because she thinks she doesn't have to put the effort in as Grimsby has been labour for the last 70+ years. This election could be the lowest turnout for decades.

Those who think Corbyn cares about the working class need to look at him in the cold light of day, I wouldn't trust him to clear up after my dogs, he'd get excrement everywhere, and I have medium size and a small dogs.


I would prefer the Brexit party to win in Grimsby, but that is not what the lastest polling indicates. It seems the Brexit party is decimating the labour vote, the Conservatives are remaining steady and holding their share so are likely to win.

Be interesting to see the actual result.
Posted by: grimsby pete, November 27, 2019, 12:54pm; Reply: 786
All this crap about the NHS is on the table under the Cons just shows how desperate the Labour party are of discussing their own manifesto ,

1, If we buy medicine from the yanks does not put the NHS on the table as we have to buy them from somewhere,

2, The labour says it will cost us billions more to buy from the yanks than what we pay at the moment,  WELL WE WONT BUY THEM THEN FFS.

3, Every time Corbyn does not answer a question he loses more votes.

Keep it up Corbyn you are the best thing to happen for the Cons. ;D
Posted by: Maringer, November 27, 2019, 2:42pm; Reply: 787
Pete, that is the most inane thing I've ever seen you post.

IF WE DON'T BUY THE MEDICATION IN QUESTION FROM THE YANKS, WE CAN'T GET IT ANYWHERE ELSE AND PEOPLE WHO REQUIRE IT WILL DIE AND SUFFER.

If you seriously think that a leak of documentation noting that the Yanks are going to completely shaft us because they know we desperately need a free trade deal when we leave the EU is some sort of ploy, then I can't really do anything for you.

This stuff isn't made up, it comes from a leak of documentation revealing the progress of the negotiations (the stuff which the government wouldn't reveal to a freedom of information request) and it shows that everything is up for sale from our food standards to medicine prices to 'access' to the NHS by the massive American 'healthcare' firms.

As part of the world's wealthiest and most successful trading bloc, the EU, we have enormous bargaining power and you don't get deals any better than the ones negotiated by the EU. Once we're out, we're a rather less formidable prospect, especially when the government of the day will be desperate to sign off on deals to stop damage to the economy. I don't blame the Yanks for trying to shaft us - it's what we would do to them if the boot was on the other foot.

Quite how you have read this situation so completely incorrectly, I just don't know.
Posted by: lew chaterleys lover, November 27, 2019, 5:41pm; Reply: 788
Quoted from grimsby pete
All this crap about the NHS is on the table under the Cons just shows how desperate the Labour party are of discussing their own manifesto ,

1, If we buy medicine from the yanks does not put the NHS on the table as we have to buy them from somewhere,

2, The labour says it will cost us billions more to buy from the yanks than what we pay at the moment,  WELL WE WONT BUY THEM THEN FFS.

3, Every time Corbyn does not answer a question he loses more votes.

Keep it up Corbyn you are the best thing to happen for the Cons. ;D


Well said Pete. I can see the common sense points you are making.

Sadly some posters are so blinded by their hatred of the Tories they cannot see anything other than anti Tory rants.

They (the Conservatives) have said many times the NHS will not be on the table in trade deal talks; no government would do that as it means electoral oblivion. We will continue to buy drugs from all over the world, as cheaply as we can get them.

Posted by: scrumble, November 27, 2019, 5:52pm; Reply: 789
Quoted from grimsby pete

2, The labour says it will cost us billions more to buy from the yanks than what we pay at the moment,  WELL WE WONT BUY THEM THEN FFS.


This right here has to be one of the dumbest comments I've read on the fishy

Posted by: grimsby pete, November 27, 2019, 7:07pm; Reply: 790
Quoted from Maringer
Pete, that is the most inane thing I've ever seen you post.

IF WE DON'T BUY THE MEDICATION IN QUESTION FROM THE YANKS, WE CAN'T GET IT ANYWHERE ELSE AND PEOPLE WHO REQUIRE IT WILL DIE AND SUFFER.

.


Well you have just gone one better with that statement,

Of course we can trade with whoever we want that's the idea of Brexit you fool.

STOP SCARE   MONGERING

People will not get their medication and will die ????  how can you post such trash ?

Posted by: grimsby pete, November 27, 2019, 7:17pm; Reply: 791
Quoted from scrumble


This right here has to be one of the dumbest comments I've read on the fishy



OK brain of Britain tell me why we can not buy medicines from some one else ?

We have got a deal with the EU to leave we will have time to make a new deal with them or whoever we choose to do one with.

BUT

You Corbynites don't like facts and answering questions do you ,?


Posted by: codcheeky, November 27, 2019, 7:49pm; Reply: 792
Quoted from grimsby pete


OK brain of Britain tell me why we can not buy medicines from some one else ?

We have got a deal with the EU to leave we will have time to make a new deal with them or whoever we choose to do one with.

BUT

You Corbynites don't like facts and answering questions do you ,?

You will be saying the Tories haven’t been spending the last decade making cuts and privatising the NHS by stealth, you may trust the Tories but ask any doctor or nurse if they trust them.
They have cut beds all over the country
If you trust Johnson to tell the truth you are complete idiot



Posted by: grimsby pete, November 27, 2019, 9:01pm; Reply: 793
Quoted from codcheeky




You are the idiot if you think Corbyn will not bankrupt  the country with his silly policies.
Posted by: grimsby pete, November 27, 2019, 9:06pm; Reply: 794
Please tell me what has a labour MP has done for Grimsby in the last 74 years, ?

That is under a Labour government as well as a Cons / Lib.
Posted by: Roast Em Bobby, November 27, 2019, 9:58pm; Reply: 795
Quoted from grimsby pete


You are the idiot if you think Corbyn will not bankrupt  the country with his silly policies.


You're falling for tory propaganda - labour's spending plans are being painted as crazy, when in fact they are less than France and a number of Scandinavian countries, and only slightly above germany. If the money is spent improving public services and investing in infrastructure to make us a competitive economy (whilst the government can borrow on near negative interest rates) then we'd be fools not to do so now. If we don't we will struggle as a country to be competitive with other countries over the coming decades.

Posted by: scrumble, November 27, 2019, 10:04pm; Reply: 796
Quoted from grimsby pete


OK brain of Britain tell me why we can not buy medicines from some one else ?

We have got a deal with the EU to leave we will have time to make a new deal with them or whoever we choose to do one with.

BUT

You Corbynites don't like facts and answering questions do you ,?




First off I'm not a Corbynite, I've only ever voted labour once, and you might actually want to give me chance to answer before claiming I don't want to.

The drugs we're talking about can't be bought from anywhere else because nobody else makes them because the US companies hold a patent on them. The other side of this trade deal lock in patents on drugs for even longer than they are now meaning it would even longer before anyone can make a drug doing the same job. In some cases there maybe alternatives, but would you be happy using a cheaper alternative that isn't as effective?

Humira is used to treat Crohns and arthritis, this would go from  £1,409 to £8,115. We're not talking about a slight price hike here. The system we have in place, and they want removing, saves the NHS £150m a year
Posted by: codcheeky, November 27, 2019, 10:21pm; Reply: 797
Quoted from grimsby pete
Please tell me what has a labour MP has done for Grimsby in the last 74 years, ?

That is under a Labour government as well as a Cons / Lib.


They have brought you the welfare state, decent pensions, the NHS, decent working conditions, paid holidays and much more , what have the Tories done except cut local spending budgets to the bone? Cut taxes for the richest made waiting lists longer and looked after their rich mates. It’s no coincidence they won’t publish the report on Russian influence when loads of Russian oligarchs use the UK to launder money
You have to decide what kind of UK you want your grandkids to live in ,one that will see them in loads of debt with little chance of their own home if they choose to go to uni, massive waiting lists if they are ill. If you trust an adulterer, who won’t say how many kids he has, who has been sacked for lying twice over a man who voted against the crazy wars in Iraq, Syria and Libya and had the lowest expenses of any MP during that candle you have to look at your own judgement
Posted by: LH, November 27, 2019, 10:50pm; Reply: 798
Sorry Scrumble but I think retired bus driver Pete knows more about pharmaceuticals and trade deals than prospective government officials.
Posted by: Maringer, November 27, 2019, 11:06pm; Reply: 799
Quoted from grimsby pete


Well you have just gone one better with that statement,

Of course we can trade with whoever we want that's the idea of Brexit you fool.

STOP SCARE   MONGERING

People will not get their medication and will die ????  how can you post such trash ?



As noted by other posters, if only American countries make the medication, then how are you going to get it elsewhere?

Secondly, the Yanks know we are so desperate for a trade deal that they can practically force us to do things we wouldn't want to including buying the branded medications instead of generics where available. Even if it costs the NHS a few billion extra, those negotiating might accept such a stipulation if they think that the deal will overall benefit the economy a bit more. Of course, you would then need the government to increase NHS funding to cover the extra cost. Good luck with that from a Tory government.

Not scaremongering, common sense.
Posted by: grimsby pete, November 27, 2019, 11:22pm; Reply: 800
So many Labour voters on here tonight let's see what happens on election day.

I am not a  tory just a disillusioned  Labour supporter .
Posted by: grimsby pete, November 27, 2019, 11:33pm; Reply: 801
I can not believe how many of you are taken in by  labours . manifesto .

Let's see what happens  I can not see.a Labour win.

Please come back and prove  me wrong .
Posted by: codcheeky, November 28, 2019, 6:48am; Reply: 802
Quoted from grimsby pete
I can not believe how many of you are taken in by  labours . manifesto .

Let's see what happens  I can not see.a Labour win.

Please come back and prove  me wrong .


Why " taken in" ? The Tories are standing on a record of cuts, rapidly rising NHS waiting lists, inequality, homelessness, child poverty, student debt and food banks, if we are "taken in" with hope that society can a little fairer and more caring and that tax dodgers will he made to pay up a then that is a good thing.
I would suggest you are taken in by the Tory backing media who's super rich tax exile owners are frightened they may have to pay more tax or have less influence.
You either want to have hope for the future generations of a better country or more of the same


Posted by: lew chaterleys lover, November 28, 2019, 11:01am; Reply: 803
I have been hearing scare stories about the Tories and the NHS since I was a lad.

Here we are, decades later, most of which have been under Tory governments, and the NHS is still protected, still free at the point of use, still growing still doing fantastic work and has had the biggest input of investment that can reasonably be expected. Yet apparently the Tories are going to sell it off; they are going to privatise it, they are going to do this that and the other to it.

People have got beyond this infantile demonisation of the Conservative party regarding the NHS. Although a great service, it could do even better, but it faces enormous pressures from a growing population and an ageing population with serious illnesses that can be treated these days which could not in decades past.

The political will to "sell off" the NHS is simply not there, even if any party wanted to. It would mean electoral oblivion for any party who tried it. Imagine the doctors and nurses unions reaction to it.

It seems all Labour have is scare stories. We will see what the voters decide on December 12th.
Posted by: Maringer, November 28, 2019, 2:01pm; Reply: 804
I have been hearing scare stories about the Tories and the NHS since I was a lad.

Here we are, decades later, most of which have been under Tory governments, and the NHS is still protected, still free at the point of use, still growing still doing fantastic work and has had the biggest input of investment that can reasonably be expected. Yet apparently the Tories are going to sell it off; they are going to privatise it, they are going to do this that and the other to it.

People have got beyond this infantile demonisation of the Conservative party regarding the NHS. Although a great service, it could do even better, but it faces enormous pressures from a growing population and an ageing population with serious illnesses that can be treated these days which could not in decades past.

The political will to "sell off" the NHS is simply not there, even if any party wanted to. It would mean electoral oblivion for any party who tried it. Imagine the doctors and nurses unions reaction to it.

It seems all Labour have is scare stories. We will see what the voters decide on December 12th.


It seems you somehow missed my post showing the expenditure chart from the King's Fund in the other thread which is a pity, as it was a response to your original post. Here's the link to my post and here's the image once again:



As this shows, since the coalition government took power in 2010, the NHS has been drastically underfunded. The irrefutable fact is that we have a rapidly aging population and therefore need to spend an increasing proportion of our resources to look after them. You can certainly tinker around the edges and improve efficiencies here and there but ultimately, only continuing to increase the expenditure will work.

You're also missing out the obvious fact that the NHS was severely struggling after the Thatcher/Major era. Blair's New Labour government came into power and oversaw a huge investment in the NHS to bring things back up to a required level - clearly shown on the chart above and, elsewhere, in the stats for the targets which were created and then met at the time. Now, they are being missed despite the fact that the targets have been lowered since then.

Note, I'm not defending the fact that a lot of the New Labour expenditure was foolishly funded through PFI to keep it off the books (as continued by the coalition and then the Tories) - the point is that the expenditure was required and it was made.

You ask why we don't trust the Tories with the NHS? Well, the pointless and expensive reorganisation of the NHS in 2012 wasn't mentioned in their 2010 manifesto and was cooked up shortly after the election. The main aim? To introduce 'competition' within the NHS due to the typical right-wing mantra that only the market can decide what is efficient and what isn't. A clear stepping stone towards privatisation of the NHS if I've ever seen one and and it has proved such a failure that many it was announced earlier this year that many of the changes are to be reversed. They are abandoning the policy of enforcing competition and are merging the CCGs created after 2012, all without officially repealing the 2012 act (because that would admit it was a failure).

However, that was announced under May's watch. With people like Johnson in charge and the Britannia Unchained idiots in the cabinet, who knows what nonsense they might come up with on NHS policy? After pretty much anything but the softest of Brexits, we would be desperate for free trade deals and the wealthy countries we would have to go to cap in hand know this. Increased access to the NHS or public healthcare funding for private companies has been around for years now and it's the foot in the door for worse to follow, if the government of the day are ideologically disposed that way. And this lot certainly are.
Posted by: Maringer, November 28, 2019, 2:15pm; Reply: 805
Just to add, if you trust Johnson on pretty much anything you're barmy as he's practically a pathological liar. During this campaign he's continually repeated the absolutely untrue claims of 40 new hospitals in planning:

https://fullfact.org/health/six-hospitals-not-forty/

Outright, blatant and untrue disinformation. A pity that the BBC have apparently decided that they don't want to call him a liar because it would, "undermine trust in British politics". Unbelievable.
Posted by: grimsby pete, November 28, 2019, 3:09pm; Reply: 806
Its also unbelievable that you don't think there will be a price to pay when moneybags Corbyn bankrupts the country.

Don't say its all been  costed because he will not get all the billions from the super rich and global companies,

He lied  as well ( they all do ) when he said only the top 5% will pay more tax but you if you are married will pay an extra £250 a year, He said everything is in the grey book but the waspy womens pay out aprox 55billion is not in the book and he hardly answered any questions the other night.

Don't come back with a load on the Cons because like I said they all tell porkies and I don't believe any of them.

I take it all with a pinch of salt then I decide who I will vote for.
Posted by: lew chaterleys lover, November 28, 2019, 4:21pm; Reply: 807
Quoted from Maringer


It seems you somehow missed my post showing the expenditure chart from the King's Fund in the other thread which is a pity, as it was a response to your original post. Here's the link to my post and here's the image once again:



As this shows, since the coalition government took power in 2010, the NHS has been drastically underfunded. The irrefutable fact is that we have a rapidly aging population and therefore need to spend an increasing proportion of our resources to look after them. You can certainly tinker around the edges and improve efficiencies here and there but ultimately, only continuing to increase the expenditure will work.

You're also missing out the obvious fact that the NHS was severely struggling after the Thatcher/Major era. Blair's New Labour government came into power and oversaw a huge investment in the NHS to bring things back up to a required level - clearly shown on the chart above and, elsewhere, in the stats for the targets which were created and then met at the time. Now, they are being missed despite the fact that the targets have been lowered since then.

Note, I'm not defending the fact that a lot of the New Labour expenditure was foolishly funded through PFI to keep it off the books (as continued by the coalition and then the Tories) - the point is that the expenditure was required and it was made.

You ask why we don't trust the Tories with the NHS? Well, the pointless and expensive reorganisation of the NHS in 2012 wasn't mentioned in their 2010 manifesto and was cooked up shortly after the election. The main aim? To introduce 'competition' within the NHS due to the typical right-wing mantra that only the market can decide what is efficient and what isn't. A clear stepping stone towards privatisation of the NHS if I've ever seen one and and it has proved such a failure that many it was announced earlier this year that many of the changes are to be reversed. They are abandoning the policy of enforcing competition and are merging the CCGs created after 2012, all without officially repealing the 2012 act (because that would admit it was a failure).

However, that was announced under May's watch. With people like Johnson in charge and the Britannia Unchained idiots in the cabinet, who knows what nonsense they might come up with on NHS policy? After pretty much anything but the softest of Brexits, we would be desperate for free trade deals and the wealthy countries we would have to go to cap in hand know this. Increased access to the NHS or public healthcare funding for private companies has been around for years now and it's the foot in the door for worse to follow, if the government of the day are ideologically disposed that way. And this lot certainly are.


To be fair you would make a better leader of the Labour party than Jeremy Corbyn.

However, normal voters take things in the round; in this particular election probably the majority will vote for a party that can get into power which promises to deliver on the decision taken by the British people to leave the European Union. They will enjoy seeing a democratic vote honoured.

They will look at both the main parties and draw their own conclusions as to other matters, including the NHS which as I pointed out earlier still treats the populations ills free at the point of use, despite scare stories for years. They will know that a huge influx of immigrants each and every year is adding more strain on all the services we use, and they will know that the Tories had to at least try and balance the books after Liam Byrne, the Labour Treasury minitser left them a note saying there was no money left.

They will see the spending plans for each party and decide which one might be remotely credible, and they will take into account the flaws of the leaders of both the main parties and factor them in.

Most voters will see the down side of all the parties, and not be ideologically wedded to one, and most voters will certainly not try to roll the t**d that is the Labour party in glitter.

I know the Conservative party has many faults. The leader has many faults, like any human being, but on balance I think most voters will be more comfortable with a Conservative government than a Labour one. Obviously you will disagree, being the de facto leader of the opposition, but we will have to see on polling day.  
Posted by: Maringer, November 28, 2019, 5:44pm; Reply: 808
Quoted from grimsby pete
Its also unbelievable that you don't think there will be a price to pay when moneybags Corbyn bankrupts the country.

Don't say its all been costed because he will not get all the billions from the super rich and global companies,

He lied  as well ( they all do ) when he said only the top 5% will pay more tax but you if you are married will pay an extra £250 a year, He said everything is in the grey book but the waspy womens pay out aprox 55billion is not in the book and he hardly answered any questions the other night.

Don't come back with a load on the Cons because like I said they all tell porkies and I don't believe any of them.

I take it all with a pinch of salt then I decide who I will vote for.


Once again, Pete, the level of expenditure that the Labour Party are talking about is at absolutely normal levels for Western democracies. It will not (and cannot) 'bankrupt' the country:



A little above the OECD average for developed countries but nothing outrageous and there is a lot of damage to repair following a decade of the Coalition/Tories.

It's interesting that you say a Labour government wouldn't be able to raise taxes from the wealthy and corporations. If the wealthy want to leave the country, then let them. Of course, it means that they won't be living with their families who will still be living in the south east and going to the same schools. The idea of capital flight is a well-used scare story loved by right-wingers but there is actually very little evidence that it actually occurs when taxes are raised.

Labour is also moving forward (as are the other OECD countries) in trying to get Unitary taxation in place. In other words, big companies such as Amazon and the like wouldn't be able to get away with basing themselves in tax havens and claiming that sales in the UK aren't actually made here because of complex transfers using loopholes. The big corporations are hollowing out the economies where they operate by not paying a fair share of taxes there and this is why the OECD countries are finally getting together to do something about it.

Not sure what you've got against the WASPI women? The equalisation of pension ages had been known about for some time but then the coalition yanked forward the timescale (and increased the age to 66 faster as well) in 2011. This left millions women unexpectedly out of pocket or working longer, all because the coalition wanted to not give pensioners £30 billion they were entitled to under previous legislation. Surprised they are going to go back further and offer additional compensation following the original legislation, but I personally don't really mind pensioners getting a one-off substantial payment, much of which will end up being spent on their families. If we can create almost half a trillion pounds through QE to bail out the banks when it was their behaviour which crashed the economy and led to the financial collapse, nothing wrong with spending a tenth as much on the elderly. I look at it as an investment, truth be told. Just as long as the cruise industry doesn't end up pocketing most of it.  ;)

Actually, most of it would probably end up in the hands of care homes, thinking about it. One way to help deal with the social care issue in the shorter term, I suppose.
Posted by: barralad, November 28, 2019, 6:17pm; Reply: 809
I'm afraid bankruptcy is an emotive word. This country isn't and never has been close to bankruptcy since the years after the war. I'm not convinced that it is possible for us to be declared bankrupt.
No point in going over the old nonsense about the state the last Labour government left the country in unless you accept that a large part of the blame for it was down to the 2008 global crash precipitated by U.S. bankers.
What amazes me about  this election is the country is polarised by the need to get Brexit done or the need to stop it. No-one is talking about Brexit as an entity and dare I say it both main parties are going along as though Brexit will have no effect on their spending plans. Truly remarkable times we live in.
Posted by: Marinerz93, November 28, 2019, 6:27pm; Reply: 810
The closer we get to election day the more dramatic remoaners and left wing cry babies will make fantasy statements about Brexit and the more hysterical they get as falling off a cliff Brexit face has less meaning.



There are pharma companies in the UK and Switzerland (Non EU), drugs are being developed all the time with these companies, where they can make new drugs that will get them contracts there is a way.

Posted by: barralad, November 28, 2019, 6:29pm; Reply: 811
Part of the reason I haven't been on here much lately is that I've been fighting aggressive prostate cancer. Mercifully I got the all clear a couple of weeks ago. It was a real eye-opener visiting Castle Hill every day for five weeks for radiotherapy. The NHS drugs scene is mightily complicated. Most of the drugs we use come from Europe or the U.S. and as someone said earlier they are copyrighted preventing their production anywhere else. This includes cancer drugs for chemotherapy. In the context of radiotherapy the radioactive material used is produced in Europe and has a half life of just 66 hours. Any distuption caused to the supply chain by a no deal Brexit will literally mean people being denied life saving treatment. We don't have the facilities to produce the required substance here and getting that expertise in will be difficult at least in the short term.
Posted by: Grimbiggs, November 28, 2019, 7:42pm; Reply: 812
Latest voting intentions for Great Grimsby constituent (27/11):

Conservatives- 12148 (36.2%)
Labour- 12012 (35.8%)
Brexit- 5188 (15.5%)
Lib dems- 2371 (7.2%)
Greens- 1381 (4.1%)
Others- 439 (1.2%)

Turnout- 54%

Now I'm not trying to make a political point, but as a keen historian I find the turnout appalling. Given we needed the Great Reform of 1832, and women's suffrage 1918-1928, before the franchise was entended....whatever your politics, GET OUT THERE AND VOTE!
Posted by: Marinerz93, November 28, 2019, 7:42pm; Reply: 813
Quoted from barralad
Part of the reason I haven't been on here much lately is that I've been fighting aggressive prostate cancer. Mercifully I got the all clear a couple of weeks ago. It was a real eye-opener visiting Castle Hill every day for five weeks for radiotherapy. The NHS drugs scene is mightily complicated. Most of the drugs we use come from Europe or the U.S. and as someone said earlier they are copyrighted preventing their production anywhere else. This includes cancer drugs for chemotherapy. In the context of radiotherapy the radioactive material used is produced in Europe and has a half life of just 66 hours. Any distuption caused to the supply chain by a no deal Brexit will literally mean people being denied life saving treatment. We don't have the facilities to produce the required substance here and getting that expertise in will be difficult at least in the short term.


Sorry to hear what you have been through Ian, and it's great news that you have the all clear, cancer of any form is horrible and there is a lot of research into finding cures, what we need is one of these boffins to find a one cures all drug and in this age of enlightenment that shouldn't be to far off.
Posted by: cmackenzie4, November 28, 2019, 7:47pm; Reply: 814
Great news Ian, Glad you’re ok and recovering mate. 👍
Posted by: grimsby pete, November 28, 2019, 10:59pm; Reply: 815
Good to hear you are doing ok now Ian hope to see you at a game soon.
Posted by: grimsby pete, November 28, 2019, 11:07pm; Reply: 816
I do not think we could declare ourselves bankrupt it was just a word I used to say Labour would spend more.money than we could pay back.

BUT

What the he'll let's spend spend spend give everybody free this and free that and let's have a 2 day week . ;D
Posted by: louth_in_the_south, November 29, 2019, 7:18am; Reply: 817
Who the fook would want to buy the nhs ? Surely it’s not an attractive proposition especially with our country’s growing , ageing and generally shi.te lifestyle and health ?
Posted by: codcheeky, November 29, 2019, 8:38am; Reply: 818
Quoted from louth_in_the_south
Who the fook would want to buy the nhs ? Surely it’s not an attractive proposition especially with our country’s growing , ageing and generally shi.te lifestyle and health ?


Like the railways which we pay companies over Six Billion Pounds in subsidies for outside companies to run there is plenty of money to be made from the NHS, every contract now has to go out to tender (privatisation by stealth) and many companies just want to get a foot in the door and will price accordingly. Virgin Care who have over £2  billion in health contracts sued the NHS for over £80million last year because they lost a contract.  These companies make massive profits which go to the big bosses in the Virgin Islands and other tax havens, American companies want some. of this, the drug companies who already make an obscene amount of money want more profit from the NHS. The Tories will count this money as extra spending on the NHS and would be technically correct to do so.
There is a reason for the massive lobby industry in health and very little of it is concerned with improved patient care.

Posted by: grimsby pete, December 1, 2019, 2:12pm; Reply: 819
There is a few on here who think we will leave the EU without a deal,

Well you might just be wrong and we do get a deal with the EU and the USA,

We will only buy what we want from the yanks and  paying a silly price for anything when we can get it cheaper elsewhere is just bonkers and you are bonkers if you think we would.
Posted by: grimsby pete, December 1, 2019, 2:17pm; Reply: 820
Quoted from LH
Sorry Scrumble but I think retired bus driver Pete knows more about pharmaceuticals and trade deals than prospective government officials.


For your information LH I have worked for 44 years only 3 as a bus driver, over 20 years in Local Government and retired on a good pension at the age of 59,

So not as thick as you make out.
Posted by: Nelly GTFC, December 2, 2019, 8:06pm; Reply: 821
Novartis pharmaceutical site will be closing in Grimsby, UK, with the loss of 400 jobs. The Grimsby site making a £6.5 million profit in the year its closure was announced.

https://www.business-live.co.uk/manufacturing/closing-novartis-plant-returns-65m-16972503

NHS/Government should buy the whole site and manufacture generic drugs at cost price, save the NHS a fortune. Keep as many of the talented Scientists already there, expand and increase employment in Grimsby. Develop research facilities to produce ground breaking new drugs, which can be sold for profit to other countries before the 20-year patent duration run out.
Posted by: Chrisblor, December 2, 2019, 8:19pm; Reply: 822
You'll get that with a Labour government! Link with more information
Posted by: Malta_Mariner_90, December 6, 2019, 1:54pm; Reply: 823
Quoted from louth_in_the_south
Who the fook would want to buy the nhs ? Surely it’s not an attractive proposition especially with our country’s growing , ageing and generally shi.te lifestyle and health ?


I think it is more to do with obtaining lucrative contracts to supply the NHS rather than buying it per se. Still probably find a buyer quicker for the NHS than Town though ;D.

The highlighted point in your comment above is probably why medical companies in the US are rubbing their hands in glee if the NHS was "on the table" in any post brexit trade deal.
Posted by: arryarryarry, December 8, 2019, 2:44pm; Reply: 824
Quoted from Maringer
Just to add, if you trust Johnson on pretty much anything you're barmy as he's practically a pathological liar. During this campaign he's continually repeated the absolutely untrue claims of 40 new hospitals in planning:

https://fullfact.org/health/six-hospitals-not-forty/

Outright, blatant and untrue disinformation. A pity that the BBC have apparently decided that they don't want to call him a liar because it would, "undermine trust in British politics". Unbelievable.


For felicitations sake are you just incredibly naive or just plain stupid, most political leaders are pathological liars.

Tony Blair lied about not bringing in tuition fees, he lied about the expected number of EU migrants coming into the UK when he opened the flood gates saying they expected 15,000 when nearly 100,000 came in in the first year alone.. He lied about weapons of mass destruction taking the UK into an illegal war costing the lives of hundreds of UK service men and women as well as possibly hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in the Middle East as well as costing the UK billions of pounds and also likely causing the rise of ISIS.

John Major was a hypocritical lying little excrement when he tried to force his "back to basics" platform on his MPs when he had been cheating on his wife by shagging Edwina Currie. The little girl private also prorogued Parliament in 1997 to prevent a report into Cash for Questions being debated by Parliament yet actively tried to stop BJ's prorogation of Parliament.

Gordon Brown lied about giving the electorate a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and British jobs for British workers.

Nick Clegg lied about not voting for a rise in tuition fees.

David Camoron lied about getting a good deal from the EU, he lied about staying on as PM and seeing through Brexit, he lied about Parliament not stopping the will of the people if the vote was to leave the EU.

Theresa May lied countless times about the date we would leave the EU.

Jeremy Corbyn comes up with a new idea just about every day which will cost the UK billions yet has no idea how to pay for it, he promised at the last election to deal with student debt but had no idea how to pay for it, he said he has dealt with anti-seminism in his party but is still lying about that.

Anyone who believes any politician needs their head seeing to.

And I'm no fan of Boris Johnson either.



Posted by: Ipswin, December 8, 2019, 6:34pm; Reply: 825
Quoted from grimsby pete


You are the idiot if you think Corbyn will not bankrupt  the country with his silly policies.


At our age Pete do we really give a excrement? And please don't give me the 'what about our grandchildren' crap. If you were that bothered about them (and their kids) after we have gone, you wouldn't have voted to leave the EU

Bet you were glad about the availablity of the drugs and painkillers when you had your knee done, I know I was after my four ops and during my chemotherapy

Posted by: grimsby pete, December 9, 2019, 2:10pm; Reply: 826
Quoted from Ipswin


At our age Pete do we really give a excrement? And please don't give me the 'what about our grandchildren' crap. If you were that bothered about them (and their kids) after we have gone, you wouldn't have voted to leave the EU

Bet you were glad about the availablity of the drugs and painkillers when you had your knee done, I know I was after my four ops and during my chemotherapy



Just to prove to everybody on here we do not agree with everything,

Stop scaremongering Swin we will get our drugs and a deal,

Like somebody just said they are all liars and Boris is no different if we do not have a deal by the end of next year we will extend the transition period until we do.

and don't you dare say I DO NOT CARE ABOUT MY GRANDKIDS. FFS
Posted by: Chrisblor, December 9, 2019, 2:20pm; Reply: 827
They are not 'all liars' and false equivalence like that is why we end up with a Prime Minister who can't even face up to the consequences of his party's austerity on the NHS:

Tweet 1204018593656180736 will appear here...
Posted by: Maringer, December 9, 2019, 2:28pm; Reply: 828
Quoted from arryarryarry


For felicitations sake are you just incredibly naive or just plain stupid, most political leaders are pathological liars.



Well, no. No they aren't.

Many of those you mention (regardless of party) changed some of their plans due to various events but did they start off their time in office with nothing but endless lies and misdirection? No - or at least certainly not to the same degree that Johnson has. Blair, for all his many flaws, actually carried out the promised investment in the economy after the slash and burn of the Thatcher/Major era. The higher levels of EU immigration were not expected but it was (rightly) seen as a positive for the economy so nothing was done about it. A policy continued by the Tory governments since 2010 for all their bluster otherwise. Blair's problems with veracity were mainly to do with his desire to follow the Yanks to war, something which let's not forget the Tory opposition were in complete lockstep with. On the other hand May didn't deliberately lie about her timetable for 'Brexit', she just foolishly assumed that her party would back the deal on the table once negotiated and her catastrophic failure in calling the 2017 election meant she had no majority to force it through. On the other hand, Johnson lied about promising to leave the EU by the end of October when it was obvious it couldn't happen (and wouldn't have been sensible). He told the lies because that's what he does (and has since lied that parliament thwarted Brexit when it was him who withdrew the bill) and because he was beginning his campaign early.

Johnson's record of dissembling in just a few months in office (and throughout his time in government) is absolutely unparalleled. He's spent a career being dishonest and acting dishonestly both in and out of politics but has risen to the top through a combination of privilege and by creating a persona which somehow let him get away with a lack of seriousness or any interest in the truth. The fact that we find him as our Prime Minister shows the depths to which the Tory Party and their membership have descended. The fact that he seems likely to be returned as PM says much more about the electorate taking all the crap pushed by the media at face value. Not all politicians lie, but most of the media does or at least disseminates the lies without countering them. Why has nobody at the BBC called Johnson a liar? He's a proven liar, he does it all the time, he's lied throughout the campaign yet all we get are sideways questions about dishonesty and trustworthiness - which he then ignores!

Incidentally, the Labour Party has costed their manifesto and, as I have noted previously, there is no reason it can't be affordable given it will only take our government spending as a percentage of GDP to slightly above that of the OECD average. The IFS disagrees that Labour will be able to get the tax receipts they expect, but then the IFS has ideological leanings of their own which assume that there is no alternative to the status quo. They also quite happily admit that they "don't do macroeconomics" which mean that their estimates of the effect of increased government spending on tax receipts and growth in the economy means they are likely to be way out in their analysis.

P.S. I'm neither incredibly naive nor plain stupid. Try to keep the debate polite.
Posted by: grimsby pete, December 9, 2019, 2:33pm; Reply: 829
Quoted from Maringer


Well, no. No they aren't.

Many of those you mention (regardless of party) changed some of their plans due to various events but did they start off their time in office with nothing but endless lies and misdirection? No - or at least certainly not to the same degree that Johnson has. Blair, for all his many flaws, actually carried out the promised investment in the economy after the slash and burn of the Thatcher/Major era. The higher levels of EU immigration were not expected but it was (rightly) seen as a positive for the economy so nothing was done about it. A policy continued by the Tory governments since 2010 for all their bluster otherwise. Blair's problems with veracity were mainly to do with his desire to follow the Yanks to war, something which let's not forget the Tory opposition were in complete lockstep with. On the other hand May didn't deliberately lie about her timetable for 'Brexit', she just foolishly assumed that her party would back the deal on the table once negotiated and her catastrophic failure in calling the 2017 election meant she had no majority to force it through. On the other hand, Johnson lied about promising to leave the EU by the end of October when it was obvious it couldn't happen (and wouldn't have been sensible). He told the lies because that's what he does (and has since lied that parliament thwarted Brexit when it was him who withdrew the bill) and because he was beginning his campaign early.

Johnson's record of dissembling in just a few months in office (and throughout his time in government) is absolutely unparalleled. He's spent a career being dishonest and acting dishonestly both in and out of politics but has risen to the top through a combination of privilege and by creating a persona which somehow let him get away with a lack of seriousness or any interest in the truth. The fact that we find him as our Prime Minister shows the depths to which the Tory Party and their membership have descended. The fact that he seems likely to be returned as PM says much more about the electorate taking all the crap pushed by the media at face value. Not all politicians lie, but most of the media does or at least disseminates the lies without countering them. Why has nobody at the BBC called Johnson a liar? He's a proven liar, he does it all the time, he's lied throughout the campaign yet all we get are sideways questions about dishonesty and trustworthiness - which he then ignores!

Incidentally, the Labour Party has costed their manifesto and, as I have noted previously, there is no reason it can't be affordable given it will only take our government spending as a percentage of GDP to slightly above that of the OECD average. The IFS disagrees that Labour will be able to get the tax receipts they expect, but then the IFS has ideological leanings of their own which assume that there is no alternative to the status quo. They also quite happily admit that they "don't do macroeconomics" which mean that their estimates of the effect of increased government spending on tax receipts and growth in the economy means they are likely to be way out in their analysis.

P.S. I'm neither incredibly naive nor plain stupid. Try to keep the debate polite.


Maringer are you sure you can not manage a 4 day week ?   ;)
Posted by: LH, December 9, 2019, 4:18pm; Reply: 830
Quoted from grimsby pete


Just to prove to everybody on here we do not agree with everything,

Stop scaremongering Swin we will get our drugs and a deal,

Like somebody just said they are all liars and Boris is no different if we do not have a deal by the end of next year we will extend the transition period until we do.

and don't you dare say I DO NOT CARE ABOUT MY GRANDKIDS. FFS


They’ll let the deadline time out so we are out of the EU without a trade deal. Why do you think Farage has stood down candidates in Tory seats otherwise?
Posted by: grimsby pete, December 9, 2019, 6:37pm; Reply: 831
Quoted from LH


They’ll let the deadline time out so we are out of the EU without a trade deal. Why do you think Farage has stood down candidates in Tory seats otherwise?


IF that happens and we can not get drugs from any other sauce apart from the yanks at a sky high price,

Then the Cons will never get into power ever again which will make a lot on here very happy.
Posted by: Ipswin, December 9, 2019, 8:31pm; Reply: 832
Quoted from grimsby pete


Just to prove to everybody on here we do not agree with everything,

Stop scaremongering Swin we will get our drugs and a deal,


and don't you dare say I DO NOT CARE ABOUT MY GRANDKIDS. FFS


I don't care about a flipping deal !

I want to stay in the EU (for the sake of generations to come and so should you!)

Posted by: grimsby pete, December 10, 2019, 5:50pm; Reply: 833
Quoted from Ipswin


I don't care about a flipping deal !

I want to stay in the EU (for the sake of generations to come and so should you!)



Don't tell me what I should do,

We all have an opinion right or wrong but nobody on here has the right to tell others what they should do,

So up yours !!!!!!!!
Posted by: Ipswin, December 10, 2019, 7:10pm; Reply: 834
Quoted from grimsby pete


Don't tell me what I should do,

We all have an opinion right or wrong but nobody on here has the right to tell others what they should do,

So up yours !!!!!!!!


Perhaps you shouldn't have been allowed the vote. Disenfranchise all over 65s and allow 16 year olds to vote, after all they will be around much longer than you and me

Posted by: Stadium, December 12, 2019, 10:16pm; Reply: 835
Well that's Brexit all done now.
Horrendous result for Labour.
Posted by: Marinerz93, December 12, 2019, 10:19pm; Reply: 836
It will be interesting how many spoiled votes are recorded this year,

1. Do people still have faith in British Politics - I don't think so as most of them lie

2. If one party wins out right are we going to see the sort of big girl hissy fits we have seen over Brexit vote - most probably

3. It will also be interesting in how many people turn out to vote, especially as democracy wasn't upheld after the last general election that parties stood on and yet failed to honour, especially Labour.

4. Will the remain turkeys be having early Christmas dinner tomorrow, lets hope so
Posted by: Grimbiggs, December 12, 2019, 10:43pm; Reply: 837
As many have said on here, when you try and deny the will of the people this is what happens, a severe backlash, and a predicted Tory landslide!
Posted by: Maringer, December 12, 2019, 10:46pm; Reply: 838
The worst of all worlds, providing the exit polls are an accurate indication of the result.

A Brexit only vote with millions voting against their own best interests (regardless of the rights or wrongs of Brexit itself). We'll be left with an incompetent narcissistic charlatan of a politician as Prime Minister following the most devious and dishonest campaign since... well, ever. I won't say he's in charge as its obvious that others behind the scenes are pulling the strings.

Hold on to your hats, it's going to be a rough ride. Only hope Johnson's Tories actually keep their word and spend what money they have promised. It still won't be enough to rescue the NHS, but hopefully, fewer people will die than would otherwise be the case.
Posted by: promotion plaice, December 12, 2019, 10:47pm; Reply: 839

It's not done yet but based on the exit polls -

Get Brexit done now Boris and kick some @rse while your at it.
Posted by: LH, December 12, 2019, 11:05pm; Reply: 840
Quoted from promotion plaice

It's not done yet but based on the exit polls -

Get Brexit done now Boris and kick some @rse while your at it.


He’ll be kicking towns like ours arses first.
Posted by: Stevie Cammack, December 12, 2019, 11:11pm; Reply: 841
Scunny is a certain Tory swing by the looks of it.  A sad, sad, day.  I'm truly gutted.   :'(
Posted by: Grimbiggs, December 12, 2019, 11:14pm; Reply: 842
It shows that this rotten opposition has spent more time blocking Brexit, rather than listening to their own constituents....the REMOANERS have been an absolute disgrace, and will get what they deserve!
Posted by: Bawmariner, December 12, 2019, 11:54pm; Reply: 843
Quoted from Grimbiggs
It shows that this rotten opposition has spent more time blocking Brexit, rather than listening to their own constituents....the REMOANERS have been an absolute disgrace, and will get what they deserve!


What will we get? Boris Johnson said a victory for him will bring the country together. From your post and other reaction i've seen it seems like we'll have a lot of remain voters feeling very marginalised as people who voted brexit shout we won. Remainers tend to be more educated. I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of people leaving the country.
Posted by: Marinerz93, December 13, 2019, 12:13am; Reply: 844
If the exit polls do come true, although I am not convinced and the tory's win, will the cry baby remoaners want a people's general election because they didn't win.  ;D
Posted by: Marinerz93, December 13, 2019, 12:49am; Reply: 845
Quoted from Bawmariner


What will we get? Boris Johnson said a victory for him will bring the country together. From your post and other reaction i've seen it seems like we'll have a lot of remain voters feeling very marginalised as people who voted brexit shout we won. Remainers tend to be more educated. I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of people leaving the country.


;D

Remainers tend to be more educated, most remoaners are window lickers, educated people understand how democracy works.

Posted by: Bawmariner, December 13, 2019, 12:55am; Reply: 846
Quoted from Marinerz93


;D

Remainers tend to be more educated, most remoaners are window lickers, educated people understand how democracy works.



Education is not necessarily a measure of intelligence but it is a determinant of income meaning that more educated people have better mobility. Look at the statistics. The majority of people with degrees and other high level qualifications voted to remain.

Brexiters should be a bit more humble in 'victory'. Democracy is famously topsy turvy and the shoe will be on the other foot one day. I hope when that day comes I will remember times when I have felt the disappointment of being on the 'losing' side.
Posted by: grimsby pete, December 13, 2019, 1:13am; Reply: 847
I was going to say there will be a lot of remainers moaning on here in the morning,

BUT

They have already started.

The majority rules except it like I would have done if the vote went the other way.

BUT

That was never going to happen was it ?
Posted by: Bawmariner, December 13, 2019, 1:30am; Reply: 848
Quoted from grimsby pete
I was going to say there will be a lot of remainers moaning on here in the morning,

BUT

They have already started.

The majority rules except it like I would have done if the vote went the other way.

BUT

That was never going to happen was it ?


Personally I accept the result but I can't pretend I think it will be good for the country. Brexit in itself won't make peoples lives better. It will be how the government handles brexit and powers taken back from the EU that will decide if this will improve peoples lives in the north. Based on how the tories have performed for the last decade, I'm not confident they can be trusted with these powers.
Posted by: arryarryarry, December 13, 2019, 2:12am; Reply: 849
Quoted from Bawmariner


What will we get? Boris Johnson said a victory for him will bring the country together. From your post and other reaction i've seen it seems like we'll have a lot of remain voters feeling very marginalised as people who voted brexit shout we won. Remainers tend to be more educated. I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of people leaving the country.


Would you mind awfully me calling you a girl private and telling you to intercourse right off.

You typically remaining excrement house suggesting remainers are more intelligent.

The remain bullshit that has been peddled for the past 3 years was that another referendum would bring the country together was balderdash.

Clearly the Labour Party is getting a damn good kicking for ignoring much of its core support by ignoring the 2016  vote and if they had said they would accept that vote and leave the EU they could well have won tonight as the Conservative vote is not up that much .

So tough excrement.
Posted by: grimsby pete, December 13, 2019, 2:25am; Reply: 850
[quote=142]

Would you mind awfully me calling you a girl private and telling you to intercourse right off.

You typically remaining excrement house suggesting remainers are more intelligent.

The remain bullshit that has been peddled for the past 3 years was that another referendum would bring the country together was balderdash.

Clearly the Labour Party is getting a damn good kicking for ignoring much of its core support by ignoring the 2016  vote and if they had said they would accept that vote and leave the EU they could well have won tonight as the Conservative vote is not up that much .

So tough excrement.[/quote

Can I just add that what is intelligence ?

I never went to uni or got any senior positions in life.so I am not at the top of the intelligence scale.

But

Got by using my common sense and good planning that I could retire at 59 and I still have a good life and a new car every 3 years without having great wealth.
Posted by: Bawmariner, December 13, 2019, 2:37am; Reply: 851
Quoted from arryarryarry


Would you mind awfully me calling you a girl private and telling you to intercourse right off.

You typically remaining excrement house suggesting remainers are more intelligent.

The remain bullshit that has been peddled for the past 3 years was that another referendum would bring the country together was balderdash.

Clearly the Labour Party is getting a damn good kicking for ignoring much of its core support by ignoring the 2016  vote and if they had said they would accept that vote and leave the EU they could well have won tonight as the Conservative vote is not up that much .

So tough excrement.


You're right remainers are stupid. I don't understand why people voted for brexit but people have. I accept that. The more educated comment wasn't meant as a dig at brexiters although I can see why it came across like that. I didn't say more intelligent. I said better educated. University graduates overwhelmingly voted remain and are generally in higher paid jobs which makes it easier for them to move abroad. It's a statistic and i'm sorry if it came across as me talking down to brexiters.

The UK will now leave the EU. I just hope we take our time to get a good a trade deal and stay somewhat closely aligned as the result was close. I don't think brexit will be access especially not with a conservative government but I guess we'll wait and see. There is nobody left to hide behind for the tory party now.
Posted by: Grimbiggs, December 13, 2019, 2:41am; Reply: 852
Quoted from grimsby pete
[quote=142]

Would you mind awfully me calling you a girl private and telling you to intercourse right off.

You typically remaining excrement house suggesting remainers are more intelligent.

The remain bullshit that has been peddled for the past 3 years was that another referendum would bring the country together was balderdash.

Clearly the Labour Party is getting a damn good kicking for ignoring much of its core support by ignoring the 2016  vote and if they had said they would accept that vote and leave the EU they could well have won tonight as the Conservative vote is not up that much .

So tough excrement.[/quote

Can I just add that what is intelligence ?

I never went to uni or got any senior positions in life.so I am not at the top of the intelligence scale.

But

Got by using my common sense and good planning that I could retire at 59 and I still have a good life and a new car every 3 years without having great wealth.


Well said, if Labour hadn't betrayed its core vote this election would have been far closer. They have alot to learn, as they haven't got close to winning an election for over a decade now!
Posted by: Bawmariner, December 13, 2019, 2:44am; Reply: 853
Quoted from grimsby pete
[quote=142]

Would you mind awfully me calling you a girl private and telling you to intercourse right off.

You typically remaining excrement house suggesting remainers are more intelligent.

The remain bullshit that has been peddled for the past 3 years was that another referendum would bring the country together was balderdash.

Clearly the Labour Party is getting a damn good kicking for ignoring much of its core support by ignoring the 2016  vote and if they had said they would accept that vote and leave the EU they could well have won tonight as the Conservative vote is not up that much .

So tough excrement.[/quote

Can I just add that what is intelligence ?

I never went to uni or got any senior positions in life.so I am not at the top of the intelligence scale.

But

Got by using my common sense and good planning that I could retire at 59 and I still have a good life and a new car every 3 years without having great wealth.


Exactly I know some very intelligent people who didn't go to uni but people who did generally have greater ability to move abroad which was my point. I work for a multinational company having to gone to uni so I could move abroad more easily than somebody working in jobs that require less qualifications.

The UK requires a mix of people to function. Remainers can't be ignored in the leaving process. Brexiters will get their way now but its dangerous for them to dictate everything and if brexit does go wrong they could quite easily encourage enough people that being back in the EU is a good idea.
Posted by: Bawmariner, December 13, 2019, 2:50am; Reply: 854
Quoted from Grimbiggs


Well said, if Labour hadn't betrayed its core vote this election would have been far closer. They have alot to learn, as they haven't got close to winning an election for over a decade now!


I'd be interested to know why you think Labour have betrayed the core voters in The North /Wales. Is it just brexit or is there more to it?
Posted by: Grimbiggs, December 13, 2019, 3:27am; Reply: 855
Quoted from Bawmariner


I'd be interested to know why you think Labour have betrayed the core voters in The North /Wales. Is it just brexit or is there more to it?


Yes Brexit is the main cause, the biggest Remainer of them all Jo Swinson, the Lib Dem leader lost her seat....regarding Labour, extreme left-wing politics and Jeremy Corbyn are very unpopular,  but there is also something fundamentally wrong when Labour are losing dozens of seats that have been Labour since WWII, including Tony Blairs old seat..
Posted by: Grimbiggs, December 13, 2019, 3:43am; Reply: 856
Melanie Onn losing by over 7000 votes sums Labour's night up!
Posted by: arryarryarry, December 13, 2019, 3:48am; Reply: 857
Just drunk myself laughing, that stupid female dog Swinson kicked out of Parliament.
Posted by: Rik e B, December 13, 2019, 6:26am; Reply: 858
Finally we've had the opportunity to punish those elitist cretins who have thwarted the democratic will of the people for so long. I said they'd be made to pay at the ballot box as soon as the rats had the kahooners to agree to an Election and oh look, bye bye.

Absolutely made up we can now crack on with getting the Brexit process completed instead of constantly kicking down the can down the road and all the rest of their sickening skullduggery.

Also, great to see the people of Greater Grimsby finally see some sense like us Cleethorpes constituents,

Abandon your leave voting Northern heartlands and pay the ultimate price -kicked out of office! Yes it is the people who are sovereign and the people who are king makers! Think you know better than your electorate? Well today is your day of reckoning!

Kinda thankful that unelectable terrorist sympathising extreme Marxist Commie Corbyn was in charge at this crucial point in our history -a more centrist leader and they would have done better I'm sure.
Posted by: Rik e B, December 13, 2019, 7:26am; Reply: 859
BawMariner: Remainers tend to be more educated... Oh f**k off, should they get two votes for their supposed superior wisdom? I'd say the 'less educated' are more streetwise with their finger in the pulse of what is actually going on in areas that have been left behind.

Brexiteers should be more humble... How about Remoaners should be more gracious in defeat and accepting of democracy instead of all the sickening underhand tactics we've seen? Accept democracy and there wouldn't have been so much division. Its the screachinf remainers that have caused such division.
Posted by: Bawmariner, December 13, 2019, 8:17am; Reply: 860
Quoted from Rik e B
BawMariner: Remainers tend to be more educated... Oh f**k off, should they get two votes for their supposed superior wisdom? I'd say the 'less educated' are more streetwise with their finger in the pulse of what is actually going on in areas that have been left behind.

Brexiteers should be more humble... How about Remoaners should be more gracious in defeat and accepting of democracy instead of all the sickening underhand tactics we've seen? Accept democracy and there wouldn't have been so much division. Its the screachinf remainers that have caused such division.


You won. Brexit is being done congratulations. Whether you like it or not remainers were educated to a higher level. It's a fact. Not that facts mean much anymore. 68% of people with degrees voted remain. Not that really matters to the result.

I'm not really sure what's been achieved other than saying intercourse you to remainers. A right wing government has a huge majority despite left wing parties getting a higher share of the vote. The tories now have to prove they can improve places like Grimsby which given they've never cared before doesn't seem overly likely to happen. At least the establishment was defeated and we've got a cabinet of people who have experienced the real world.
Posted by: ginnywings, December 13, 2019, 9:04am; Reply: 861
Tho most alarming thing for me is that the majority of the disaffected and poor in this country believe that it is the fault of Europe that they are living in such deprivation. They have now voted in the very people that put them in that position in the first place but have been spun a lie, which they have swallowed hook line and sinker. The Tories now have a mandate to screw us over even more than they have in the last decade, while the countries of Western Europe will carry on having better standards of living than we do, despite us being a very wealthy nation. It's akin to a mass suicide. Just take this little blue pill and all your woes will disappear. Boris and his elite cronies have been engineering this day for years, changing his stance repeatedly, playing the buffoon, stirring up the sh1t, but he's a cold and calculating sociopath, just like Trump.

I don't expect things will get much better for those living in Blyth and Grimsby but hey, we are free from Europe and all those pesky foreigners can go back where they came from. At least there will be plenty of jobs picking sprouts and cabbages.
Posted by: Rik e B, December 13, 2019, 10:02am; Reply: 862
What does having a degree or not have to do with anything?
Posted by: Rik e B, December 13, 2019, 10:26am; Reply: 863
I don't get all this workers right scaremongering... We've already signed into UK law a crossover of all existing EU standards and any changes will be debated and scrutinised in a democratic and sovereign parliament.

If there any, or too many heinous crimes against workers then we will have the chance to punish the Torys for doing so when we return to the ballot box.

As for that big bad guy Trump, as far as I am aware the US economy is doing very well and also as far as I am aware workers rights there haven't been crushed to beyond bearability.
Posted by: arryarryarry, December 13, 2019, 10:28am; Reply: 864
Quoted from Rik e B
What does having a degree or not have to do with anything?


Just sad high and mighty tossers who think that those who voted leave are thick.

Just having a degree means intercourse all and doesn't mean those that have them are more intelligent than those that didn't go to university.

Posted by: Stevie Cammack, December 13, 2019, 10:35am; Reply: 865
Quoted from ginnywings
Tho most alarming thing for me is that the majority of the disaffected and poor in this country believe that it is the fault of Europe that they are living in such deprivation. They have now voted in the very people that put them in that position in the first place but have been spun a lie, which they have swallowed hook line and sinker. The Tories now have a mandate to screw us over even more than they have in the last decade, while the countries of Western Europe will carry on having better standards of living than we do, despite us being a very wealthy nation. It's akin to a mass suicide. Just take this little blue pill and all your woes will disappear. Boris and his elite cronies have been engineering this day for years, changing his stance repeatedly, playing the buffoon, stirring up the sh1t, but he's a cold and calculating sociopath, just like Trump.

I don't expect things will get much better for those living in Blyth and Grimsby but hey, we are free from Europe and all those pesky foreigners can go back where they came from. At least there will be plenty of jobs picking sprouts and cabbages.


Yep.  I can already visualise the slack jaws hanging around Scunny job centre after Brexit is 'delivered' (am I ever sick of hearing that to55er Johnson coming out with this disingenuous crap), when they realise that the streets are not now suddenly paved with gold, their lives are not improved a jot, and we have just given license to the ultimate silver-spoon Tory to grind us further in to the dirt for half a decade.  

Quite how Labours strategists managed to agree that officially ignoring a Democratic vote result (with a monster turn-out) and holding another one was a sound idea to bang in to the Manifesto is anyone's guess.  

What an absolute shambles.
Posted by: ginnywings, December 13, 2019, 10:48am; Reply: 866
Quoted from Rik e B
I don't get all this workers right scaremongering... We've already signed into UK law a crossover of all existing EU standards and any changes will be debated and scrutinised in a democratic and sovereign parliament.

If there any, or too many heinous crimes against workers then we will have the chance to punish the Torys for doing so when we return to the ballot box.

As for that big bad guy Trump, as far as I am aware the US economy is doing very well and also as far as I am aware workers rights there haven't been crushed to beyond bearability.


The Tories have always been against the Social Chapter and the Work Time Directive. They will get rid of it at the first opportunity. The gig economy will blossom.
Posted by: carrot top, December 13, 2019, 10:51am; Reply: 867
Labour should have gone with the people in their heartlands and stated that they would honour the Brexit referendum and fight for a deal. They have quite simply been their own worst enemy
There were other issues with them though - Corbyn's past, for example showing sympathy for terrorist groups did not go down well with many together with anti-semitism issues
Posted by: Town Monkey, December 13, 2019, 12:26pm; Reply: 868
I've been a vocal remainer and I think we should have had a final say now that we know what Johnson's deal looks like but the country has spoken.  We don't have to like it or think it's a good idea but we have to accept it and move on.  All I can do is hope that I'm wrong about the effects of Brexit and the kind of damage it could do.

The irony is I'll probably be fine either way, some parts of my job will be harder, I might get paid a little less (the Brexit uncertainty was partly to blame for a 10% pay cut I took this year), but ultimately life will carry on.  What I worry about are the people less fortunate and privileged than me who don't necessarily have the benefit of the type of job I do, or the lifestyle I'm able to afford.  If they become further impoverished by Brexit and Johnson's government who will they turn their ire on?

In the past, I haven't always been particularly measured in my discussions, I'm going to endeavour to be better.  I'm going to try to listen more, read more and hopefully understand more.  Ultimately, I'm never going to agree with many of you, but least I can do is be civil and respectful.

Have a great Christmas everyone, and let's hope Town win some games.
Posted by: Rik e B, December 13, 2019, 12:44pm; Reply: 869
Nobody is expecting the streets to be paved with gold -in fact most leave voters accepted there would be an initial bumpy road and short term pain for the long term gain of a sovereign nation state not just a small arm of an undemocratic and increasingly Federal European empire.
Posted by: ginnywings, December 13, 2019, 12:54pm; Reply: 870
Well put Town Monkey, what you say reflects my position also, although i am semi retired and work as much or as little as i choose, so it won't affect me much. I'm a socialist remainer and leaving Europe under a Tory government with a large majority is as far from what i desired as is possible but i accept the situation as we all have to in a democratic society. Just hope everyone comes out of this ok.  :-/
Posted by: grimsby pete, December 13, 2019, 3:49pm; Reply: 871
I live in a very nice area of Suffolk just outside Bury St Edmunds which has been conservative for years.

It's a world away from Grimsby and the like as investment has been coming to the area for years hence there are always plenty of work about.

Now Grimsby has gone blue maybe some investment and prosperity will come to my home town.

Starting with a new football ground and Freeman St being updated at long last. 8)
Posted by: arryarryarry, December 13, 2019, 4:19pm; Reply: 872
Quoted from carrot top
Labour should have gone with the people in their heartlands and stated that they would honour the Brexit referendum and fight for a deal. They have quite simply been their own worst enemy
There were other issues with them though - Corbyn's past, for example showing sympathy for terrorist groups did not go down well with many together with anti-semitism issues


I made a similar point earlier, I am not a Labour supporter but it is plain to see where they went wrong, of course Jeremy Corbyn himself was a problem as many Labour MPs have said but in those seats especially in the North where the Tories have won, Labour completely ignored those leave voters, many went to the Tories but many who would never vote Tory went to the Brexit Party resulting in many red seats turning blue.

Just confirms my thoughts about many in politics, too many running these parties are brain dead.
Posted by: Marinerz93, December 13, 2019, 4:22pm; Reply: 873
Quoted from Bawmariner


Education is not necessarily a measure of intelligence but it is a determinant of income meaning that more educated people have better mobility. Look at the statistics. The majority of people with degrees and other high level qualifications voted to remain.

Brexiters should be a bit more humble in 'victory'. Democracy is famously topsy turvy and the shoe will be on the other foot one day. I hope when that day comes I will remember times when I have felt the disappointment of being on the 'losing' side.


Ah the hypocrisy to say "Brexiters should be a bit more humble in 'victory'." when remoaners were far from accepting they lost in the referendum, democracy only works when the losing side accepts they lost and remoaners never did.

Maybe if you didn't try to claim "Remainers tend to be more educated. I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of people leaving the country." leave voters would be humble in 'victory' although I don't see this as a victory myself considering the underhanded tactics of those who have tried to undermine democracy and thwart the will of the people since 2016.

What I do see as a victory is the will of voters who didn't give up on what they wanted and instead of giving up, although voting numbers were well down considering the numbers turning out for 2016 referendum they stuck with their principles and Labour paid the cost for not listening to their core voters.

Do we need another people's vote, or are those who lost going to accept that this time or continue with the hysterics we have seen from remoaners since 2016.

At least 3 people I manage out of 24 engineers have degrees and whilst they have achieved a level of education I might not be able to gain, they have no common sense and struggle to adapt or improvise to achieve more practical aspects of work. So it would be no loss to me whatsoever if they decided to leave the country. In fact one of them has the lowest performance in the team and when I have 1-2-1 meetings with him he always has a clever answer but at the end of the day he is excrement and all his degree is glitter.
Posted by: Marinerz93, December 13, 2019, 4:36pm; Reply: 874
Quoted from Stevie Cammack


Yep.  I can already visualise the slack jaws hanging around Scunny job centre after Brexit is 'delivered' (am I ever sick of hearing that to55er Johnson coming out with this disingenuous crap), when they realise that the streets are not now suddenly paved with gold, their lives are not improved a jot, and we have just given license to the ultimate silver-spoon Tory to grind us further in to the dirt for half a decade.  

Quite how Labours strategists managed to agree that officially ignoring a Democratic vote result (with a monster turn-out) and holding another one was a sound idea to bang in to the Manifesto is anyone's guess.  

What an absolute shambles.


Visualise slack jawed hanging around Scunny job centre, the slack jawed locals must be burned into your memory as going through Scumthorpe it is all you see.

Posted by: Maringer, December 13, 2019, 5:00pm; Reply: 875
Regarding the loss of the so-called 'Red Wall' seats (who invented that moniker, by the way? Never heard it mentioned until the past week), these two pics are very telling.

The top 7 of out 10 poorest regions in North West Europe are in the UK:



And this is how far behind the average for the rest of the EU that they are. Note how much worse things have got since 2008 in the North East, Lincolnshire and South Yorkshire:



Notice anything about where these poorest regions lie in comparison to yesterday's swing to the "Get Brexit Done" Tories?

The fact is that the areas which back leave so heavily are also the poorest, left-behind areas. The EU is not responsible for this poverty and I don't think anybody has ever claimed it is but it is understandable that a protest would occur somewhere and this election is just the follow up to the referendum. I personally think Brexit is a very bad idea in principle and will hit the country financially (as do economic analysts and forecasters). However, these charts are a good indication of why there is such passion for Brexit in these areas - they've got the least to lose and it is certainly one way to get voices heard.

Now, regardless of that it should be noted that the parties which explicitly backed Leave in this election gained approximately 47% of the vote, so the claims that it shows there is now a clear mandate for Brexit isn't true. However, we'll now go ahead with Johnson's crappy Brexit withdrawal agreement (universally acknowledged as being worse than May's which he did so much to defeat) at the end of January and then see what happens during the transition period. I'd imagine he'll fold like a pack of cards and agree to most of the EU's demands if he tries to rush through a trade deal by the end of 2020. The alternative would be going cap in hand to the Yanks who would then have us over a barrel. Don't know about you, but I don't fancy chlorine-washed chicken (because the US hygiene standards are so lax) or beef pumped full of growth hormone, all washed down with massive amounts of antibiotics fed to livestock over there. Better the devil you know in this case, especially as the EU are our largest and by far the nearest trading partners.

Note: I started to write this about 10.00am but have only just finished it and haven't looked on the thread since then. No idea what I've missed in the interim.
Posted by: arryarryarry, December 13, 2019, 5:07pm; Reply: 876
Quoted from Maringer
Regarding the loss of the so-called 'Red Wall' seats (who invented that moniker, by the way? Never heard it mentioned until the past week), these two pics are very telling.

The top 7 of out 10 poorest regions in North West Europe are in the UK:



And this is how far behind the average for the rest of the EU that they are. Note how much worse things have got since 2008 in the North East, Lincolnshire and South Yorkshire:



Notice anything about where these poorest regions lie in comparison to yesterday's swing to the "Get Brexit Done" Tories?

The fact is that the areas which back leave so heavily are also the poorest, left-behind areas. The EU is not responsible for this poverty and I don't think anybody has ever claimed it is but it is understandable that a protest would occur somewhere and this election is just the follow up to the referendum. I personally think Brexit is a very bad idea in principle and will hit the country financially (as do economic analysts and forecasters). However, these charts are a good indication of why there is such passion for Brexit in these areas - they've got the least to lose and it is certainly one way to get voices heard.

Now, regardless of that it should be noted that the parties which explicitly backed Leave in this election gained approximately 47% of the vote, so the claims that it shows there is now a clear mandate for Brexit isn't true. However, we'll now go ahead with Johnson's crappy Brexit withdrawal agreement (universally acknowledged as being worse than May's which he did so much to defeat) at the end of January and then see what happens during the transition period. I'd imagine he'll fold like a pack of cards and agree to most of the EU's demands if he tries to rush through a trade deal by the end of 2020. The alternative would be going cap in hand to the Yanks who would then have us over a barrel. Don't know about you, but I don't fancy chlorine-washed chicken (because the US hygiene standards are so lax) or beef pumped full of growth hormone, all washed down with massive amounts of antibiotics fed to livestock over there. Better the devil you know in this case, especially as the EU are our largest and by far the nearest trading partners.

Note: I started to write this about 10.00am but have only just finished it and haven't looked on the thread since then. No idea what I've missed in the interim.


Perhaps the people in those areas were/are drunk of with thousands of EU migrants coming into their areas seeing houses, jobs, doctors surgeries, school places being taken over.

Plus it doesn't say much for Jeremy Corbyn and his far left views if die hard Labour voters abandoned their party.
Posted by: Marinerz93, December 13, 2019, 5:15pm; Reply: 877
So what Maringer (remoaner) is saying our region is amongst the poorest in Europe, no excrement sherlock, driving around Town you would be seeing that for decades ever since the EU copulated us up with fishing quotas.

All you are doing now is posting that the people made the right choice to leave the EU and rid our Town of Labour for the next 5 years.
Posted by: Limerick Mariner, December 13, 2019, 6:12pm; Reply: 878
Yet again Brexit comprehensively rejected...

...in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Johnson's speech referred to a parliament that works for all, and one nation conservatism. Which nation is that? One with no customs borders within it?

Will the Conservative and Unionist Party be the party that breaks the Union? Hopefully Boris has been lying again, the liberal Boris, that was London major, is the real Boris and Brexit will get done but softened...



Posted by: Ipswin, December 13, 2019, 6:34pm; Reply: 879
Quoted from Marinerz93
our region is amongst the poorest in Europe, no excrement sherlock, driving around Town you would be seeing that for decades ever since the EU copulated us up with fishing quotas.

All you are doing now is posting that the people made the right choice to leave the EU .



And you are really daft enough to expect that will change ?

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/brussels-hit-britain-fishing-ultimatum-152112079.html?soc_src=strm&soc_trk=fb&guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZmFjZWJvb2suY29tLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAANZQxnzMJdf5HPDV0Ejs_RJHZIQ1HARvLW8Lk-ZDswxdw7RWxLyUJV4B4eKn6ACSoJH7qyY4GWeSSsz17RPSqVz0jr5ktDWVyMJzHH8BINPSlPUYBWU2Yvd-M1jTLYETcNfPAkiDR_XGVrrTtGuaCL8kqg_bqV0voo9-vufdCBX2


Posted by: Marinerz93, December 13, 2019, 7:58pm; Reply: 880
Quoted from Ipswin


Change, maybe I am daft enough to believe it will change at some point, when I don't know but the biggest question for me is will we ever recover from the damage done to our Town by the EU, that I don't see.any time soon.
Posted by: Vance Warner, December 13, 2019, 10:08pm; Reply: 881
Quoted from arryarryarry


Perhaps the people in those areas were/are drunk of with thousands of EU migrants coming into their areas seeing houses, jobs, doctors surgeries, school places being taken over.

Plus it doesn't say much for Jeremy Corbyn and his far left views if die hard Labour voters abandoned their party.


That'll be why the areas highlighted tend to be some of those with the highest % of White British then. How much of the mess we're in goes back to the irrational fear of immigration in this country?
Posted by: Maringer, December 13, 2019, 10:25pm; Reply: 882
Quoted from arryarryarry


Perhaps the people in those areas were/are drunk of with thousands of EU migrants coming into their areas seeing houses, jobs, doctors surgeries, school places being taken over.

Plus it doesn't say much for Jeremy Corbyn and his far left views if die hard Labour voters abandoned their party.


Actually, the areas with the largest leave vote are also the ones with the lowest levels of immigration (with the exception of some of the farming bits of Lincolnshire):

http://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-areas-with-low-immigration-voted-mainly-for-brexit-62138

It's not immigration that was the issue, it was the fear/perception of immigration. Immigration certainly hasn't put much, if any, strain on local services and so forth in most of those areas. As has previously been noted, it is the failure of government to provide these things whilst being happy to rake in the taxes paid by the workers which any problems.

Oh, and for the final time. Corbyn's policies aren't far left, that's just a nonsense propogated by the right. He's a moderate social democrat and most of the policies promoted by Labour wouldn't have been out of place from a Conservative manifesto from the sixties or seventies. The same policies are currently in operation in various democracies in Europe that aren't called far left so that's a good indication that they aren't.

Also, he's not a communist and he's not a Marxist so calling him such just makes people look a bit daft.

Ah, well. It's done now. Whatever happens next, the Tories will have to take full ownership of it and we'll see how much Johnson has been lying about his plans.
Posted by: arryarryarry, December 13, 2019, 10:58pm; Reply: 883
Quoted from Limerick Mariner
Yet again Brexit comprehensively rejected...

...in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Johnson's speech referred to a parliament that works for all, and one nation conservatism. Which nation is that? One with no customs borders within it?

Will the Conservative and Unionist Party be the party that breaks the Union? Hopefully Boris has been lying again, the liberal Boris, that was London major, is the real Boris and Brexit will get done but softened...



Personally I think there should be a referendum in  both Northern Ireland and Scotland to give both countries the right to leave the Union because I am fed up of their constant moaning and also the fact that English tax payers are sending billions to both these countries to prop them up.

I would still doubt that Scotland would vote to leave as if the want to re-join the EU they would likely have to join the Euro, even if they don't have to join the Euro it is highly unlikely they will be allowed to use the £ sterling. Joining the EU would mean a hard border with England so we would have to see how the skirt wearers would like that.  
Posted by: arryarryarry, December 13, 2019, 11:01pm; Reply: 884
Quoted from Maringer


Actually, the areas with the largest leave vote are also the ones with the lowest levels of immigration (with the exception of some of the farming bits of Lincolnshire):

http://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-areas-with-low-immigration-voted-mainly-for-brexit-62138

It's not immigration that was the issue, it was the fear/perception of immigration. Immigration certainly hasn't put much, if any, strain on local services and so forth in most of those areas. As has previously been noted, it is the failure of government to provide these things whilst being happy to rake in the taxes paid by the workers which any problems.

Oh, and for the final time. Corbyn's policies aren't far left, that's just a nonsense propogated by the right. He's a moderate social democrat and most of the policies promoted by Labour wouldn't have been out of place from a Conservative manifesto from the sixties or seventies. The same policies are currently in operation in various democracies in Europe that aren't called far left so that's a good indication that they aren't.

Also, he's not a communist and he's not a Marxist so calling him such just makes people look a bit daft.

Ah, well. It's done now. Whatever happens next, the Tories will have to take full ownership of it and we'll see how much Johnson has been lying about his plans.


You can prove anything you like with figures it is the reality that is relevant. Walk around my East Yorkshire town and you hear plenty of Eastern European voices all over. A friend of mine has Easten Europeans virtually surrounding her house, this town has the biggest number of HMOs in the whole of the East Riding many owned and filled with Eastern Europeans, many young mothers walking the streets with young children that will fill school places, if you are lucky enough to get a doctors appointment there are always EU migrants in the waiting room.

That is why this town voted to leave with a big majority.
Posted by: Marinerz93, December 13, 2019, 11:35pm; Reply: 885
Quoted from arryarryarry


Personally I think there should be a referendum in  both Northern Ireland and Scotland to give both countries the right to leave the Union because I am fed up of their constant moaning and also the fact that English tax payers are sending billions to both these countries to prop them up.

I would still doubt that Scotland would vote to leave as if the want to re-join the EU they would likely have to join the Euro, even if they don't have to join the Euro it is highly unlikely they will be allowed to use the £ sterling. Joining the EU would mean a hard border with England so we would have to see how the skirt wearers would like that.  


I find it strange that the SNP wants to break with a union that has thrived since 1707 for one that has caused Trump to impose Tariffs on Scotch whiskey because the EU gave Airbus subsides to compete with Boeing.

The new tariffs stem from a 15-year-old case that concluded earlier this month when the World Trade Organization ruled that the U.S. could attempt to recoup damages of $7.5 billion stemming from what it called unfair state subsidies given to airplane manufacturer Airbus by the E.U.

Trump imposed some $7.5 billion worth of tariffs on E.U. goods.

Good old EU eh.
Posted by: Limerick Mariner, December 14, 2019, 1:14am; Reply: 886
Quoted from Marinerz93


I find it strange that the SNP wants to break with a union that has thrived since 1707 for one that has caused Trump to impose Tariffs on Scotch whiskey because the EU gave Airbus subsides to compete with Boeing.

The new tariffs stem from a 15-year-old case that concluded earlier this month when the World Trade Organization ruled that the U.S. could attempt to recoup damages of $7.5 billion stemming from what it called unfair state subsidies given to airplane manufacturer Airbus by the E.U.

Trump imposed some $7.5 billion worth of tariffs on E.U. goods.

Good old EU eh.


Would you rather fly in an Airbus or a Boeing 737 Max...

I expect Trump would say that the Boeing short cuts on the safety testing of the 737 Max were caused by the state subsidies to Airbus


Posted by: James77, December 14, 2019, 6:58am; Reply: 887
Quoted from Maringer


Also, he's not a communist and he's not a Marxist so calling him such just makes people look a bit daft.



Not sure I agree with this 'Corbyn is a moderate' stuff. His policies are triangulated to win middle class votes while dressed up as radical (ie. cheap rail fares, free higher education fees) - i agree they are not Marxist

But he's been anti-EU and anti-NATO his whole political life, this is not exactly the stuff of social democrats. His crank political allies (eg Stop the War Coalition) and simplistic anti-western world view which gives a pass to some terrible people (Maduro, Milosevic, Putin, Hamas, Hezbollah, IRA etc) don't suggest he's some kind of moderate (or this cuddly grandpa image people project on him). More like Dave Spart, maybe.
Posted by: Ipswin, December 14, 2019, 8:43am; Reply: 888
Quoted from Marinerz93


Change, maybe I am daft enough to believe it will change at some point, when I don't know but the biggest question for me is will we ever recover from the damage done to our Town by the EU, that I don't see.any time soon.


I am absolutely convinced it won't change for the good in my lifetime either nationally or locally and certainly any Grimbarians who voted to leave because of the possible changes to the fishing industry is going to be disappointed, its an enormous bargaining chip the EU will use in the forthcoming trade deal negotiations (and who can blame them)

Yes I'm a remainer but I'm 68 so it isn't going to affect me much, it's my grandchildren I am bothered about as I think their future will be badly affected in the long term by leaving. Nothing will change for the better in Grimsby that's for sure


I am also intrigued to see how Johnson plans to 'unite the divided country' when only 29.5% of the total population of UK, actually voted Tory.

Many remainers will continue to believe we should have remained (even the most rabid leaver will surely concede we have that right) and when Brexit is finally over (or the trade deals do not materialise or don't come up to expectations) the north/south divide will remain if all his other policies and promises made during the election campaign are not fulfilled
Posted by: Bawmariner, December 14, 2019, 11:45am; Reply: 889
Quoted from arryarryarry


You can prove anything you like with figures it is the reality that is relevant. Walk around my East Yorkshire town and you hear plenty of Eastern European voices all over. A friend of mine has Easten Europeans virtually surrounding her house, this town has the biggest number of HMOs in the whole of the East Riding many owned and filled with Eastern Europeans, many young mothers walking the streets with young children that will fill school places, if you are lucky enough to get a doctors appointment there are always EU migrants in the waiting room.

That is why this town voted to leave with a big majority.


The reason immigrants stick out in places with a low number of immigrants is precisely because there are not many of them. I don't think you can accuse the stats of being wrong on EU migration either. Every Eastern European will have entered the country legally and will have been recorded doing so. Eastern Europeans provide more in tax than they take out in benefits anyway and most are working age adults without children.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with immigration after Brexit. The government has always had full control of immigration from non EU countries and yet immigration from the rest of the world is incredibly high and EU immigration is a lot lower. This suggests, despite the mantra, that the government will do very little to reduce migration. In fact we are likely to experience higher migration rates from Africa, the Middle East and Asia to replace EU migrants that leave due to Brexit. I'm going to be honest, I know which type of migrant is more culturally similar to UK citizens.

Finally, I look forward to us taking back control of EU migration. Except we won't be able to unless we create a hard boarder between Northern Ireland and Ireland with passport controls. If not any EU migrant will walk into the UK without us even knowing they are here.
Posted by: grimsby pete, December 14, 2019, 11:52am; Reply: 890
There will be no hard border in Ireland but there will be checks at ports in England Scotland and Wales like there are now. It will mean just checks from NI  will be increased a little.

So unless they want to stay in N Ireland they will be picked up.
Posted by: Bawmariner, December 14, 2019, 12:05pm; Reply: 891
Quoted from grimsby pete
There will be no hard border in Ireland but there will be checks at ports in England Scotland and Wales like there are now. It will mean just checks from NI  will be increased a little.

So unless they want to stay in N Ireland they will be picked up.


So taking back control means that we have to have passport controls within our own country? How are Northern Ireland supposed to feel that they are potentially exposed to greater illegal immigration while also having to pay tariffs on goods coming from the UK. They didn't even vote for Brexit. I have a good friend from Northern Ireland who doesn't usually vote but voted for labour this time in attempt to keep Johnson out as he shows an incredible lack of knowledge on Northern Ireland.
Posted by: Marinerz93, December 14, 2019, 1:17pm; Reply: 892
Quoted from Limerick Mariner


Would you rather fly in an Airbus or a Boeing 737 Max...

I expect Trump would say that the Boeing short cuts on the safety testing of the 737 Max were caused by the state subsidies to Airbus




I've flown in aircraft that should have been withdrawn from service and landed on beaches and grass airstrips, you take your life in your hands when ever and where ever you fly. A lot of aircraft are flying when they should be grounded and the costs of grounded aircraft far out weight them being in the air with safety on the back burner as they can have over sights they can get away with most of the time. This is the sad fact of the aviation industry. I know this from watching the NDT (Non-destructive testing) basically magnetic stress testing on aircraft, when I asked the chap carrying out the test how it was going he told me the aircraft type he was testing should have been withdrawn from service years ao and they want another 10 years out of them, a month later I was on that aircraft on 8,000 mile journey.

The facts are the EU is protectionist and has been exposed for giving unfair state subsidies by the World Trade Organization to airplane manufacturer Airbus. Therefore the US reacts and implements tariffs on food and spirits form EU countries, in this case I highlighted that Whiskey had been hit which has effected the Scottish whiskey industry but the SNP haven't made a squeak about that have they. The SNP will look for any reason that suits their agenda their party was set up for, the wind changes direction, independence, English illegitimates, independence.

The bottom line is that the EU has acted unfairly meaning the US can claim to recoup damages to the tune of $7.5 billion, and the vicitims of that are the Scottish and other EU countries who export food and spirits/wines.
Posted by: Marinerz93, December 14, 2019, 5:46pm; Reply: 893
Has someone told that Greta Thunberg that Britain is now Corbyn free  ;D
Posted by: promotion plaice, June 15, 2020, 10:02pm; Reply: 894

With everything else going on just thought I would mention the UK Government have ruled out an extension to the Brexit transition period and they will be sticking to the 31 December Brexit deadline.

Posted by: barralad, June 16, 2020, 7:30pm; Reply: 895
Well continuing in my view that the Remainer boat has well and truly sailed ( a view I've had since the day after the Referendum) I am left hoping that the current Government despite shed loads of evidence to the contrary do have the ability to get the best deal for the UK. A no deal Brexit coming on the tail of the worst downturn in history could finish this country off.
Posted by: Ipswin, June 16, 2020, 10:48pm; Reply: 896
Quoted from barralad
Well continuing in my view that the Remainer boat has well and truly sailed ( a view I've had since the day after the Referendum) I am left hoping that the current Government despite shed loads of evidence to the contrary do have the ability to get the best deal for the UK. A no deal Brexit coming on the tail of the worst downturn in history could finish this country off.


The current government and in particular the PM has never wanted a deal and the current Covid crisis is, Brexit-wise, manna from heaven as it deflects from it and will sadly allow the UK to slip out of the EU without a deal. Johnson has been determined to stick to the date whatever (I think he fancies himself as a male version of Thatcher and is 'not for turning)
Posted by: smokey111, June 17, 2020, 2:17pm; Reply: 897
Quoted from Ipswin


The current government and in particular the PM has never wanted a deal and the current Covid crisis is, Brexit-wise, manna from heaven as it deflects from it and will sadly allow the UK to slip out of the EU without a deal. Johnson has been determined to stick to the date whatever (I think he fancies himself as a male version of Thatcher and is 'not for turning)


Never mind Thatcher he is starting to look like an albino chewbacca. I think Hancock should have a go with the scissors and sort his hair out. Would be safe, they have both been infected.
Posted by: grimsby pete, June 18, 2020, 2:24pm; Reply: 898
Do the EU want to sell us their products ?

Do they want us to go on holiday spending our money when this lockdown is over ?

Do they want to buy British goods ?

If the answer is yes then a deal is possible.

If the answer is no then they are ruining their chances of recovering from the lockdown as well as ours.
Posted by: Gaffer58, June 18, 2020, 5:37pm; Reply: 899
Always said, threaten the Germans with high tariffs on their cars,BMW,Audi, VW, And Mercs and they will be offering us a deal.
Posted by: forza ivano, June 18, 2020, 10:02pm; Reply: 900
From the Tory supporting Times on Saturday
'Officials  said they had yet to identify a site for customs checks to take place after admitting that the port of dover was not large enough to accommodate the the additional infrastructure '

So Johnson and Gove have been championing a system of checks that cannot be implemented. Who wouldve thought that this bunch of clowns would make up policy on the back of a fagg packet, without even considering the implications and practicalities?
Were supposed to be the 6th biggest economy in the world and a world leader. Makes me want to weep at their sheer incompetence over this and Covid
Posted by: grimsby pete, June 19, 2020, 4:51pm; Reply: 901
Quoted from forza ivano
From the Tory supporting Times on Saturday
'Officials  said they had yet to identify a site for customs checks to take place after admitting that the port of dover was not large enough to accommodate the the additional infrastructure '

So Johnson and Gove have been championing a system of checks that cannot be implemented. Who wouldve thought that this bunch of clowns would make up policy on the back of a fagg packet, without even considering the implications and practicalities?
Were supposed to be the 6th biggest economy in the world and a world leader. Makes me want to weep at their sheer incompetence over this and Covid


I agree but the alternative was to vote for Corbyn and the vast majority could not do that.
Posted by: lew chaterleys lover, June 23, 2020, 3:50pm; Reply: 902
Quoted from forza ivano
From the Tory supporting Times on Saturday
'Officials  said they had yet to identify a site for customs checks to take place after admitting that the port of dover was not large enough to accommodate the the additional infrastructure '

So Johnson and Gove have been championing a system of checks that cannot be implemented. Who wouldve thought that this bunch of clowns would make up policy on the back of a fagg packet, without even considering the implications and practicalities?
Were supposed to be the 6th biggest economy in the world and a world leader. Makes me want to weep at their sheer incompetence over this and Covid


All governments are less than perfect, but the important thing here is that the Government implemented the democratic decision to leave the EU. No doubt the trading arrangements and the variations thereof will be ironed out.
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