Brexit

Even if a federal entity such as the United States of Europe was to appear at an unspecified date in the future (and I agree this is the current direction of travel for many in the EU at present), we're talking about it being at least a decade or two away yet.

Surely it would have been much more sensible to instead remain in the EU to reap the economic benefits and then only leave if we don't want to be part of a federal Europe at some unspecified date in the future? Use the veto to protect our own interests as we have done for years, bend the rules in other areas (just like most of the other EU members) as required and use soft power to try to move opinion away from a federal future.

Nah, that's much too sensible. Let's instead crash out with no deal, wrecking our economy in the process as the world's largest and most successful trading bloc shakes their collective heads in disbelief.

As I've said in the past it is much better to be in the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in. Especially when it is so much warmer and better for you inside the tent.

Well at the rate the MP's are resigning from their parties,

We will have to have another election soon as there will be no overall control possible with all the parties calling each other.

The latest Labour MP to resign Ian Mitchell will not be joining the new Independant crowd.

What a farce our politics have become.

Ian Austin, not Ian Mitchell. I can see how you became confused!

He's a bit different to the other Labour MPs who have quit as he's an Brexiteer so he's not going to join this new group who are looking for a second referendum.

Absolutely no surprise that he's jumped ship and he won't be calling a by-election. He's got the tiniest of majorities from 2017 (22 votes!) and has done nothing but attack the Labour leadership over the past couple of years whilst falling out with his CLP so he's a dead man walking politically. His best hope of keeping his seat is to remain independent and go for the UKIP vote.

Next one to go will almost certainly be Jon Mann, another who voted against the whip in the 'Meaningful vote' amendment last month and who has done little but attack Corbyn over the past few years. Question is whether he would be popular enough to split the Labour vote in the next election or not. He'll not join the 'Independent Group' either as he's a Brexiteer as well.

Not sure whether Hoey will go or not. She's so nutty that nobody has a clue what she's going to do next.

My muddled brain was thinking is he related to Austin Mitchell ?  

Then put the wrong surname,

By the sound of it there are a few more from both parties about to jump ship.

Is it all worth it we might ask.

Quoted from Maringer

Even if a federal entity such as the United States of Europe was to appear at an unspecified date in the future (and I agree this is the current direction of travel for many in the EU at present), we're talking about it being at least a decade or two away yet.

Surely it would have been much more sensible to instead remain in the EU to reap the economic benefits and then only leave if we don't want to be part of a federal Europe at some unspecified date in the future? Use the veto to protect our own interests as we have done for years, bend the rules in other areas (just like most of the other EU members) as required and use soft power to try to move opinion away from a federal future.

Nah, that's much too sensible. Let's instead crash out with no deal, wrecking our economy in the process as the world's largest and most successful trading bloc shakes their collective heads in disbelief.

As I've said in the past it is much better to be in the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in. Especially when it is so much warmer and better for you inside the tent.

I tend to agree with you to some extent KM

One thing though I disagree with is the much over-used cliché "crashing out"

A crash to me implies that it's something that happens out of nothing.... this mayhem has been going on now for nigh on 3 years. Has to be the slowest crash on record!!  

They haven't come up with much of a plan in the 3 years though, so it will probably feel very "crashy" for many businesses.

Out of interest does anyone genuinely think we will leave without a deal?

Quoted from Roast Em Bobby

They haven't come up with much of a plan in the 3 years though, so it will probably feel very "crashy" for many businesses.

Out of interest does anyone genuinely think we will leave without a deal?

I am beginning to think we will not leave at all.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

How can I put this more clearly for you. The original point I made about the EU army is that now the UK is leaving the EU they can get on with it, without us blocking progress. It isn't going to cost us money as we won't be part of it.

A lot of NATO spending is on force projection. The burghers of Europe won't want to spend more than they have to, so the EU army will adopt a defensive posture. Unlike NATO which has actively encircled Russia since the collapse of the SU (despite promises not to do anything of the sort). Putin's mob do moan about the EU, but they reserve their worst vitriol for NATO.

As for the Yanks having more resources to pay for things than Europe. You're having a giraffe aren't you.

You were claiming that an EU army will be well funded and be a force good enough to replace NATO.



I am basing my views on what I have seen and experienced over 22 years being deployed on ops and on joint exercises, working with the Yanks and other European forces. The EU can do what ever they like once we have left, because it will be a excrement storm if the likes of Verhofstadt and Yunker get their way when a Federal EU army stands up and fronts up to Russia as a show of force for their new federation as they claim.

Vitriol now for NATO, again lets see what happens with this emerging federal EU army, we'll soon see what the Russians think.

Proof is in the pudding how much does the US pay into NATO each year, deduct that and what the UK spends on NATO = massive hole in the finances.




If Brexit fails we'll be knee deep in what the EU wants from the UK, oh I forgot we'll just play the veto card.

Don't let the facts get in the way of your argument Marinerz93  - https://fullfact.org/europe/hunt-eu-army/

Quoted from Roast Em Bobby

Don't let the facts get in the way of your argument Marinerz93  - https://fullfact.org/europe/hunt-eu-army/

I don't mind been proven wrong with facts Bobby, facts are great when they are current, you've just roasted yourself as that report was Published: 20th Jun 2016



I do see an element of current truth in the fact that the "The EU has a long record of creating institutions through the 'back door' and the creation of a EU Army will be no different. All of a sudden, the British public will be presented with a 'done deal' and British troops will find themselves operating under the EU flag rather than the Union flag." EU definitely has form for creating institutions through the back door and announcing what we have just signed up to and our politicians are happy to let them do it so when people complain they just blame it on the EU.

All hail Brexit.