Forget your "sustainable" bullshit . The most important thing you need to do is sack artell and now.
We're is the FA cup money ?
Were is the conteh money? Why wasn't this invested in January? You haven't invested in the team in the slightest, you let dave bring in players who can't get in there own match day 18, no one wants this club relegated apart from you by the looks of it. Sack this clown and tonight.
We drop glennon for a bloke who looks like he's been dragged off the street. We sign a teenager from Coventry whoopee fuckin do. We sack hurst and wait 6 or 7 weeks in to bring in a fuckin man who sets his team out to concede 5 goals a game, he's clueless.
You didn't invest in the team in January. You didn't bring the right man in to replace hurst.
What degree of culpability do we ascribe to the owners for our current predicament?
From my point of view the core requirement for a GTFC owner is to facilitate the long term stability of the club at league level. Aligned to this is the requirement for the board to continue to attract inward investment to the club to maintain and enhance competitiveness and progression.
Everything else is superfluous unless these core conditions are satisfied.
Don't get me wrong the short term football fortune we had through promotion and the cup run was great but once again we sit on the precipice where those gains look to be lost.
It's time to admit you got it wrong big time. Pay Artell off and let Ben & Shaun take over till the end of the season with Mission Survival.
Have a new man in place when the season ends.
This is probably what should have happened in November but overconfidence in the squad probably paid a part. Maybe the change in style midseason was too much?
I feel sorry for the owners. I think they’ve tried to do the best by the club and it hasn’t paid off. How could they have know Hurst would urine the budget up the wall with absolute shite. As for Artell, I was also hopeful he could turn us around and bring us entertaining football. I don’t see how the owners could have known how bad he would be. I’m confident the owners will do the right thing and get rid.
"My love, my heart, my soul, my life. My beloved Club Grimsby."
Fed up of the Guardian articles, the excuses for under investment, the interfering in style of play and bemoaning social media when you made your fortune out of it Mr Stockwood.
This is on you. You sack a manager then take an age to appoint this. He’s an arrogant shill. Get him gone.
I think the owners have done a great job but can’t see how JS can reframe the truth and what’s before their eyes.
I think they’ve done a brilliant job since taking over from Fenty, you only had to look around the place 2 minutes before kick off today and I’m a big supporter of them but if they allow Artell to take us down they’ve failed the club & us.
We are so far off being able to grind out results which you need to do in our situation that I can’t see a way back.
"Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style
No other option sack David Brent I cannot wait for the post match interview.
Who do you believe should be manager? You're always calling for sackings. Put it in your signature, so when it turns out to being a crap idea, we can hold you to account.
The Grimsby Way haha yes a 3rd relegation to non league. How on earth did this clown get the job your data is excrement so is your recruitment guy your coaches and your new signings. Sack this idiot now tonight and get some fight and passion back in the team.All I saw there was players either hiding of simply not good enough for EFL football and summed Artell up when he brought on the young kid from Coventry before Pyke and Wilson.Artell Out
Unfortunately, the owners are responsible for the whole sorry mess this season. How they can extract themselves from this? I’m sure they are Grimsby Town fans the same as me. But - they need to ‘switch on’ and quickly - oh ! and do not place all of your faith in data.
Talk to people!
Blundell Park - The Home of Grimsby Town Football Club (still)
Forget your "sustainable" bullshit . The most important thing you need to do is sack artell and now.
We're is the FA cup money ?
Were is the conteh money? Why wasn't this invested in January? You haven't invested in the team in the slightest, you let dave bring in players who can't get in there own match day 18, no one wants this club relegated apart from you by the looks of it. Sack this clown and tonight.
We drop glennon for a bloke who looks like he's been dragged off the street. We sign a teenager from Coventry whoopee fuckin do. We sack hurst and wait 6 or 7 weeks in to bring in a fuckin man who sets his team out to concede 5 goals a game, he's clueless.
You didn't invest in the team in January. You didn't bring the right man in to replace hurst.
This is all on you.
The easy answer is it's gone on paying off Hurst /Doig . If we were to pay Big D off now it would be even more substantial .
Then there is the ground cost to factor in.
We may see how willing the owners are in the coming days/weeks , or at least how deep their pockets are
This is what happens when owners try and influence the footballing side of things despite not having the experience or qualifications to do so. A steep learning curve for them and they need to learn from their mistakes. That starts with getting rid of Artell.
Unfortunately, the owners are responsible for the whole sorry mess this season. How they can extract themselves from this? I’m sure they are Grimsby Town fans the same as me. But - they need to ‘switch on’ and quickly - oh ! and do not place all of your faith in data.
Talk to people!
Firstly hurst spunked the budget on tosh players for that I don’t blame them but employing David Brent is at their door
I think like many on here upon the takeover I was optimistic. I could swallow relegation if it meant a post Fenty future. Initially it was going well, promotion, FA cup runs, record ST sales, record merchandise sales.
But, If you get in countless 21st group advisors, Gareth Jennings (remember him), data lakes, focus groups and logo redesigns in the world and you still f**k up your first managerial appointment as bad as this then I’m sorry but you need to stand up, own it, and own it fast.
Forget your philosophy, strategy without execution is pointless powerpointing.
I think the owners have done a great job but can’t see how JS can reframe the truth and what’s before their eyes.
I think they’ve done a brilliant job since taking over from Fenty, you only had to look around the place 2 minutes before kick off today and I’m a big supporter of them but if they allow Artell to take us down they’ve failed the club & us.
We are so far off being able to grind out results which you need to do in our situation that I can’t see a way back.
Really? You support these two idiots? You must have comedy Bruce grobbelar hands such is the level of happy clapping you've attained, smell the f.cking coffee ffsake man
This is what happens when owners try and influence the footballing side of things despite not having the experience or qualifications to do so. A steep learning curve for them and they need to learn from their mistakes. That starts with getting rid of Artell.
I do agrèe
But I would have a Steve Evans in (and he's big )
Just to win every week , but that doesn't fit their criteria does it and they are the one's accountable snd putting the money in/payinv off people so it's up to them .
The Grimsby Way haha yes a 3rd relegation to non league. How on earth did this clown get the job your data is excrement so is your recruitment guy your coaches and your new signings. Sack this idiot now tonight and get some fight and passion back in the team.All I saw there was players either hiding of simply not good enough for EFL football and summed Artell up when he brought on the young kid from Coventry before Pyke and Wilson.Artell Out
There literally was no data on Artell he has been out of work for 18 months. We deluded ourselves that he played the Grimsby Way and he told us what we wanted to hear. He struck the jackpot when he got a phone call from us and got a 2.5 year deal. What mugs we were.
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
There literally was no data on Artell he has been out of work for 18 months. We deluded ourselves that he played the Grimsby Way and he told us what we wanted to hear. He struck the jackpot when he got a phone call from us and got a 2.5 year deal. What mugs we were.
6 weeks they fannied about and concluded he was the answer. I can't believe I'm typing this but these lot have learnt nothing from Fentys catalogue of errors. I feel sick.
The club is in freefall, something has to change and quickly.
The owners need to get the coaching team together ( manager and assistants ) and have a no holds barred debate about what's going wrong and hammer out a plan to dig us out of this mess. We can't continue doing the same things over and over again and expect a different outcome.
Between now and the season end, the players will be the same so the coaches have to find a way to get the best out of this group.
The only goal now is to avoid relegation, then there must be a more in depth debate about the club's recruitment strategy (players and coaches) and where this has gone so wrong.
They need to accept that they’ve made a disastrous appointment in Artell and fire him before the weekend is over.
They also need to accept that they’ve royally ballsed up talking about “the Grimsby way”. There is no Grimsby way. We haven’t played that way for over 20 years. Even Buckley couldn’t get a team playing like that again successfully in his third tenure. The game is too professional, too well drilled and players are too fit. Unless your players are better than the opposition then it not possible to always pass through them and you need the ability to mix it up. I’m sure this misty-eyed, romanticised notion of a “Grimsby way” is what led to Artell’s appointment and it’s been a disaster.
I’m still grateful for what they’ve done but they’ve got to rectify this and quickly or we’re back to square one.
They need to accept that they’ve made a disastrous appointment in Artell and fire him before the weekend is over.
They also need to accept that they’ve royally ballsed up talking about “the Grimsby way”. There is no Grimsby way. We haven’t played that way for over 20 years. Even Buckley couldn’t get a team playing like that again successfully in his third tenure. The game is too professional, too well drilled and players are too fit. Unless your players are better than the opposition then it not possible to always pass through them and you need the ability to mix it up. I’m sure this misty-eyed, romanticised notion of a “Grimsby way” is what led to Artell’s appointment and it’s been a disaster.
I’m still grateful for what they’ve done but they’ve got to rectify this and quickly or we’re back to square one.
Exactly this. Look at how other teams have bigger , quicker, more mentally strong characters than us. All our players look like 7 stone weaklings compared to the likes of Tranmere, Harrogate, and other massive bastions of football.
They need to accept that they’ve made a disastrous appointment in Artell and fire him before the weekend is over.
They also need to accept that they’ve royally ballsed up talking about “the Grimsby way”. There is no Grimsby way. We haven’t played that way for over 20 years. Even Buckley couldn’t get a team playing like that again successfully in his third tenure. The game is too professional, too well drilled and players are too fit. Unless your players are better than the opposition then it not possible to always pass through them and you need the ability to mix it up. I’m sure this misty-eyed, romanticised notion of a “Grimsby way” is what led to Artell’s appointment and it’s been a disaster.
I’m still grateful for what they’ve done but they’ve got to rectify this and quickly or we’re back to square one.
You’ll get told they never said this but it’s bang on. They’ve said they wanted attractive football a few times. It’s appropriate football we need - and that currently means getting at least a point a game on average for the rest of the season.
I’d love JS to produce some data in his next guardian article showing us how great a decision it was to appoint Artell and how well we’ve done since. And most importantly, why it’s imperative we keep him in his role.
I was there, the day Bradley Wood scored a 35 yarder!
From the black and white striped shirts To the fish in the sea You'll hear us singing Coz we are Grimsby.
You won't hear us crying But you'll hear us shout Coz we are the Grimsby And this is our chant.......... Grimsby! Grimsby! Grimsby!
Just sat thinking about the players we've bought in, and in all honesty they all look crap compared to who they've replaced.
Tharme looks poor, no way smith and Hume are an improvement on efete and glennon or even Amos.
Waterfall was slow but he would give you everything, the lad obikwu is young so I ain't gonna pass an opinion on him but let's be honest he doesn't look ready at all.
The investment has been so poor . This team makes last year's team look like world beaters, last years team wasn't the greatest but one thing they would give you every week was graft. This team isn't not only not good enough but the way they give up is criminal.
Could Jason & Andrew put a bit of input into the current demise and maybe answer what Mr Artell was referring in his interview regarding there is other issues We have been told we are an open club
Forget your "sustainable" bullshit . The most important thing you need to do is sack artell and now.
We're is the FA cup money ?
Were is the conteh money? Why wasn't this invested in January? You haven't invested in the team in the slightest, you let dave bring in players who can't get in there own match day 18, no one wants this club relegated apart from you by the looks of it. Sack this clown and tonight.
We drop glennon for a bloke who looks like he's been dragged off the street. We sign a teenager from Coventry whoopee fuckin do. We sack hurst and wait 6 or 7 weeks in to bring in a fuckin man who sets his team out to concede 5 goals a game, he's clueless.
You didn't invest in the team in January. You didn't bring the right man in to replace hurst.
This is all on you.
Absolute garbage post. You have no knowledge whatsoever about the finances and even less knowledge of the players and Managers relationship.
I know you don’t get to games but you must be missing the fact that some players aren’t playing for the team. Today I saw two players clearly pull out of challenges, two different players did the same last week.
The owners made a call regarding playing ‘the Grimsby way’. All very laudable until you realise that the Grimsby way has been a struggle for 20 years and the Grimsby way has become a battle against adversity and owners who are prepared to fund a vanity project.
I know you don’t get to games but you must be missing the fact that some players aren’t playing for the team. Today I saw two players clearly pull out of challenges, two different players did the same last week.
The owners made a call regarding playing ‘the Grimsby way’. All very laudable until you realise that the Grimsby way has been a struggle for 20 years and the Grimsby way has become a battle against adversity and owners who are prepared to fund a vanity project.
I know you don’t get to games but you must be missing the fact that some players aren’t playing for the team. Today I saw two players clearly pull out of challenges, two different players did the same last week.
The owners made a call regarding playing ‘the Grimsby way’. All very laudable until you realise that the Grimsby way has been a struggle for 20 years and the Grimsby way has become a battle against adversity and owners who are prepared to fund a vanity project.
Did you edit my post?
I have seen every game this season in full, home and away, so I don't need any explanations from you or anyone else. I'm not stupid, I can see like everyone else that something has gone wrong with the team, what I don't do is call the manager and players names or have a go at the owners. BTW, your reference to a 'vanity project' is absolute bollox.
If he isn't sacked then the attention will start to turn on the owners, we saw much the same with Fenty. They will give themselves a bit of breathing space. We don't have a game for a week and any point would be welcome. The big one is the next home game against FGR. Artell has to be a distant memory by then otherwise it will be a horrible atmosphere.
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
I have seen every game this season in full, home and away, so I don't need any explanations from you or anyone else. I'm not stupid, I can see like everyone else that something has gone wrong with the team, what I don't do is call the manager and players names or have a go at the owners. BTW, your reference to a 'vanity project' is absolute bollox.
1. No I didn’t. 2. You have every right to an opinion, as do I. If you bother to read my post, I refer to other clubs being vanity projects, I happen to feel the same about us for several reasons but understand if you don’t. I believe that the owners are promising a lot but delivering very little.
I'm afraid it's all over for Artell. There's no coming back from these recent displays and he must know it. The owners must reluctantly admit it today and I guess there will now have to be a dance around the subject of his compensation. I feel for Jason and Andrew but they have brought this on themselves with a dreadful appointment. If he somehow survives to the next home game I will give it a miss but they might want to get extra security for the Main Stand.
If one of Stockwood's aims/objectives was to change typicial Grimbarian's mindsets, not just footballing wise, then who can blame him. Be careful what you wish for.
This appointment looks like a feck-up from 1878, but there are alot of deluded people on here if they think there is an alternative ownership structure that is going to pile money in. Apart from the Alan Buckley period, and its crystal clear that period was the exception, this club has been in a spiral of decline, more or less since the day the man who was the special guest today left the club.
The current owners are the only option. We could end up worse off than Scunny, they own their stadium, which as tinpot as it is, will not be hoovering cash in maintenance and repair like half of BP.
I agree they need to act fast to correct their feck-up though.
I have seen every game this season in full, home and away, so I don't need any explanations from you or anyone else. I'm not stupid, I can see like everyone else that something has gone wrong with the team, what I don't do is call the manager and players names or have a go at the owners. BTW, your reference to a 'vanity project' is absolute bollox.
How do you know it’s not a Vanity Project? Do you personally know the owners and have discussed this with them? Has someone told you who has direct knowledge of why they bought the club?
If not stop posting until you have a credible source supporting your statements.
Since 2000, the following managers have completed a full Football League season in charge, nobody has completed two consecutive seasons in charge, except for Hurst in non-league.
Paul Groves: 02/03 Russell Slade: 05/06 Michael Jolley: 18/19 Paul Hurst: 22/23
In terms of non-league: Rob Scott and Paul Hurst: 11/12 Paul Hurst: 12/13, 13/14, 14/15, 15/16, 21/22
Since the turn of the millennium, we have had 16 managers, 14 have ended badly. Only Russell Slade (2006 after the expiration of his contract) and Paul Hurst (2016) have left for a better appointment. Every other appointment has ended badly.
Since 2000, the following managers have completed a full Football League season in charge, nobody has completed two consecutive seasons in charge, except for Hurst in non-league.
Paul Groves: 02/03 Russell Slade: 05/06 Michael Jolley: 18/19 Paul Hurst: 22/23
In terms of non-league: Rob Scott and Paul Hurst: 11/12 Paul Hurst: 12/13, 13/14, 14/15, 15/16, 21/22
Since the turn of the millennium, we have had 16 managers, 14 have ended badly. Only Russell Slade (2006 after the expiration of his contract) and Paul Hurst (2016) have left for a better appointment. Every other appointment has ended badly.
99% of Football manager appointments end badly only exceptions are Ferguson, Shankley and the odd manager who has died in office even Wenger and Mourhon ended badly ( twice ),
How do you know it’s not a Vanity Project? Do you personally know the owners and have discussed this with them? Has someone told you who has direct knowledge of why they bought the club?
If not stop posting until you have a credible source supporting your statements.
Deep analysis this. 'Vanity Project'. What even does that mean? I would take it to be successful and feel personally good about it. Well I'd be happy with that then. Success came quickly. Bumpy patches happen. Stockwood has always been open about using the football club as a platform to boost the wider community, mindset and culture. All for that. People moan about scotch eggs. Get real, whilst on the pitch it's been bumpy recently, based on a fans survey BP improvements have been obvious and incremental. Fanzone, upper sightlines, food. Fans were asked and these things were delivered. I just think some are so keen to jump on 'wokeism', 'vanity project', 'social capitalism', 'happy clappers' as soon as the opportunity arises. This is perhaps the biggest decision JS and AP have to make though. Follow your initial instincts or act with risk and haste. Personally, I think that should be it for Artell. You can't go into home games knowing you probably have to score 3 for a draw. For whatever reason, it just isn't happening after a promising start.
Deep analysis this. 'Vanity Project'. What even does that mean? I would take it to be successful and feel personally good about it. Well I'd be happy with that then. Success came quickly. Bumpy patches happen. Stockwood has always been open about using the football club as a platform to boost the wider community, mindset and culture. All for that. People moan about scotch eggs. Get real, whilst on the pitch it's been bumpy recently, based on a fans survey BP improvements have been obvious and incremental. Fanzone, upper sightlines, food. Fans were asked and these things were delivered. I just think some are so keen to jump on 'wokeism', 'vanity project', 'social capitalism', 'happy clappers' as soon as the opportunity arises. This is perhaps the biggest decision JS and AP have to make though. Follow your initial instincts or act with risk and haste. Personally, I think that should be it for Artell. You can't go into home games knowing you probably have to score 3 for a draw. For whatever reason, it just isn't happening after a promising start.
There is absolutely no doubt that the club has improved off the field and for that I am very grateful for what they've done. Equally there is no doubt that there are some who are almost willing them to fail because they don't like Stockwood's politics. To each their own but that's slightly pathetic.
However, this is their first big test and they've clearly dropped a clanger appointing Artell and believing that he can get this below par squad playing some passing football akin to Buckley's first two stints in charge. They need to take action quickly because it's quite clear that Artell will take us down. A third relegation to non-league could be terminal for the club.
Deep analysis this. 'Vanity Project'. What even does that mean? I would take it to be successful and feel personally good about it. Well I'd be happy with that then. Success came quickly. Bumpy patches happen. Stockwood has always been open about using the football club as a platform to boost the wider community, mindset and culture. All for that. People moan about scotch eggs. Get real, whilst on the pitch it's been bumpy recently, based on a fans survey BP improvements have been obvious and incremental. Fanzone, upper sightlines, food. Fans were asked and these things were delivered. I just think some are so keen to jump on 'wokeism', 'vanity project', 'social capitalism', 'happy clappers' as soon as the opportunity arises. This is perhaps the biggest decision JS and AP have to make though. Follow your initial instincts or act with risk and haste. Personally, I think that should be it for Artell. You can't go into home games knowing you probably have to score 3 for a draw. For whatever reason, it just isn't happening after a promising start.
Let’s be honest here.
The new owners came in and, courtesy of a series of amazing games, got a promotion at the first roll of the dice. We were told that we were going to see the club developed as a business, see facilities improved or replaced and a better match day experience.
So, let’s have a look at that. Barring better food choices, what has really improved? Yes, we’ve got more back room staff but that must impact the wage bill but we have no new training ground, we’re told that we’re going to be at BP for the foreseeable future and our much vaunted recruitment looks laughable.
Mariners Trust seems very quiet. On the verge of relegation but they only seem to communicate when their bar is open. Shouldn't the trust comment on the manager situation? Did they have any say in Artell appointment?
Deep analysis this. 'Vanity Project'. What even does that mean? I would take it to be successful and feel personally good about it. Well I'd be happy with that then. Success came quickly. Bumpy patches happen. Stockwood has always been open about using the football club as a platform to boost the wider community, mindset and culture. All for that. People moan about scotch eggs. Get real, whilst on the pitch it's been bumpy recently, based on a fans survey BP improvements have been obvious and incremental. Fanzone, upper sightlines, food. Fans were asked and these things were delivered. I just think some are so keen to jump on 'wokeism', 'vanity project', 'social capitalism', 'happy clappers' as soon as the opportunity arises. This is perhaps the biggest decision JS and AP have to make though. Follow your initial instincts or act with risk and haste. Personally, I think that should be it for Artell. You can't go into home games knowing you probably have to score 3 for a draw. For whatever reason, it just isn't happening after a promising start.
It was sarcasm aimed at B&W Bear who insists on total accuracy in respect of any opinions included in respective posts. I’m sure they bought the club for the right reasons but it’s becoming increasingly evident that financially it’s a far expensive investment then they expected and managerially its way out of their comfort zone and levels of expertise. The next three months will probably one of the biggest learning curve and challenge they’ve ever experienced.
Put £50K in a brown envelope and see what happens.
Lucky Stevenage, I would have had him here in a flash without a second thought, he even said he loves the stick he gets from the Grimsby Town fans, because he knows how passionate they are.
I bet he goes absolutely mad if the teams not playing upto his standards, just like Warnock did.
There is absolutely no doubt that the club has improved off the field and for that I am very grateful for what they've done. Equally there is no doubt that there are some who are almost willing them to fail because they don't like Stockwood's politics. To each their own but that's slightly pathetic.
However, this is their first big test and they've clearly dropped a clanger appointing Artell and believing that he can get this below par squad playing some passing football akin to Buckley's first two stints in charge. They need to take action quickly because it's quite clear that Artell will take us down. A third relegation to non-league could be terminal for the club.
There is absolutely no doubt that the club has improved off the field and for that I am very grateful for what they've done. Equally there is no doubt that there are some who are almost willing them to fail because they don't like Stockwood's politics. To each their own but that's slightly pathetic.
However, this is their first big test and they've clearly dropped a clanger appointing Artell and believing that he can get this below par squad playing some passing football akin to Buckley's first two stints in charge. They need to take action quickly because it's quite clear that Artell will take us down. A third relegation to non-league could be terminal for the club.
What we are currently experiencing is deeply embarrassing from a football perspective.
Let’s not clamour for someone - someone who, I might add, wouldn’t drop down to manage us anyway - who would return us to the completely non-footballing embarrassment that we were for most of Fenty’s tenure.
Since 2000, the following managers have completed a full Football League season in charge, nobody has completed two consecutive seasons in charge, except for Hurst in non-league.
Paul Groves: 02/03 Russell Slade: 05/06 Michael Jolley: 18/19 Paul Hurst: 22/23
In terms of non-league: Rob Scott and Paul Hurst: 11/12 Paul Hurst: 12/13, 13/14, 14/15, 15/16, 21/22
Since the turn of the millennium, we have had 16 managers, 14 have ended badly. Only Russell Slade (2006 after the expiration of his contract) and Paul Hurst (2016) have left for a better appointment. Every other appointment has ended badly.
Not really. The ground isn't quite as shite, the fanzone is a big improvement as is the food on offer and we no longer boast about having an extra portakabin at the ground and presumably our footballs are actually round. They've invested in other staff to help with analysis etc which all other teams had as a minimum but Fenty wouldn't pay money for. The football itself this season is as bad as ever but the club is better off the field than it was.
There is absolutely no doubt that the club has improved off the field and for that I am very grateful for what they've done. Equally there is no doubt that there are some who are almost willing them to fail because they don't like Stockwood's politics. To each their own but that's slightly pathetic.
However, this is their first big test and they've clearly dropped a clanger appointing Artell and believing that he can get this below par squad playing some passing football akin to Buckley's first two stints in charge. They need to take action quickly because it's quite clear that Artell will take us down. A third relegation to non-league could be terminal for the club.
It wouldn’t be terminal, but it might be more embarrassing than the last two put together, which was unthinkable a year ago.
They have already dug deeply into their pockets. Who do you think you are to tell them to spend more of their money?
I'm a mere fan, one of many who over the years has put a lot of money through the turnstiles etc. I still think JS & AP are right for the job but do feel they bought the club with their hearts and overruled a due diligence process that would have revealed the extent to which not only Cheapside but mainly BP had been run down over the years.
That said the question is simply do we keep Artel and drift slow to the brink, if not falling into the NL.
This would have a calamitous effect on the clubs income the following season and undo all the good of the last 2 years. Or JS & AP dig deeper and rid us of Artell admitting along the way they got it wrong. Artell being an appointment done with the heart but nothing else. This would leave us managerless and I have already said to give the job to Ben & Shaun with Mission League 2 status.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
It wouldn’t be terminal, but it might be more embarrassing than the last two put together, which was unthinkable a year ago.
To be more specific, could be terminal for the club as a FL team. I wouldn't expect most of our fans to stick by the club again, there is only so much people can take before you start to think it's a waste of time and money to be made miserable 90% of the time.
To be more specific, could be terminal for the club as a FL team. I wouldn't expect most of our fans to stick by the club again, there is only so much people can take before you start to think it's a waste of time and money to be made miserable 90% of the time.
I will 100% turn my back if we are managed back to the conference, yet again, and I think hundreds, if not thousands will do the same - especially those who are 40/45 plus and have just had more than a belly full of it. Going back to the conference cannot be allowed to happen. It will kill the club. If the owners let the current manager have another game, or even 2, then they are playing Russian Roulette.
I will 100% turn my back if we are managed back to the conference, yet again, and I think hundreds, if not thousands will do the same - especially those who are 40/45 plus and have just had more than a belly full of it. Going back to the conference cannot be allowed to happen. It will kill the club. If the owners let the current manager have another game, or even 2, then they are playing Russian Roulette.
I won't fully turn my back on the club but I've only missed three home games this season. I cant' be bothered to watch us against the likes of Dorking and Wealdstone again. My son is 2 and not old enough to come with me to games yet so I give up time I could spend with him to be treated to shite like today. Frankly, I'd rather save the money and play Brio with him.
To be more specific, could be terminal for the club as a FL team. I wouldn't expect most of our fans to stick by the club again, there is only so much people can take before you start to think it's a waste of time and money to be made miserable 90% of the time.
As someone above pointed out the next 3 months (15 games) and going to be the most important in the club's current history. JS & AP have got to make the right decisions for the club and sentiment etc. out of the decision. If they don't they could end up with a financial millstone around their necks. I remember the words of Alan Sugar which was something like ' I wish I never got involved with running a football club' and was very pleased to sell up.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
I won't fully turn my back on the club but I've only missed three home games this season. I cant' be bothered to watch us against the likes of Dorking and Wealdstone again. My son is 2 and not old enough to come with me to games yet so I give up time I could spend with him to be treated to shite like today. Frankly, I'd rather save the money and play Brio with him.
We’ve had three or four season tickets in our house for at least 10 years now. We sat down for tea tonight and, collectively, we said that we’ve had enough. You’ve got to have some sort of hope. The club is giving us none.
So off the pitch we've had some impoved food, a new website, a new badge, a glass barrier, some required backlog maintenance, integrated sprinklers, a bit of drainage works and a new portacabin.
The fanzone predated them and the badge was a freebie.
On pitch rapidly turning into a new disaster + oodles of new backroom staff presumably not improving our on pitch fortunes.
Pretty small increments on what were admittedly the previous excrement show
So off the pitch we've had some impoved food, a new website, a new badge, a glass barrier, some required backlog maintenance, integrated sprinklers, a bit of drainage works and a new portacabin.
The fanzone predated them and the badge was a freebie.
On pitch rapidly turning into a new disaster + oodles of new backroom staff presumably not improving our on pitch fortunes.
Pretty small increments on what were admittedly the previous excrement show
Not to mention a promotion, first top half league 2 finish in years and FA cup quarter final. Admittedly we are going through an unexpected rough season but ignore those facts.
Not to mention a promotion, first top half league 2 finish in years and FA cup quarter final. Admittedly we are going through an unexpected rough season but ignore those facts.
We’re at the point of no return. No one is denying the positives of the last two seasons, just astounded that we could have spunked them so rapidly.
Not to mention a promotion, first top half league 2 finish in years and FA cup quarter final. Admittedly we are going through an unexpected rough season but ignore those facts.
Some great early success but where are we in the league again, looks like any football fortune will be spent on cleaning up this utter disaster of a season, but ignore those facts.
Artell is currently presiding over one of the worst - if not the worst - home records in the entire 146-year history of this proud club.
Before 2024 began, we'd only conceded 5+ goals at BP three times in 25 years (Donny, ironically, Burnley, and Charlton).
Now we've done it three times in seven weeks.
We are beyond the point of no return. Even if DA steadies the ship from here and we stay up, the fans will turn on him the very moment things begin to look dodgy again.
One little wobble and he'll be feeling the pressure. Because it'll be like 'Oh god, here we go again.'
Fans have lost confidence in him. I agree that the players aren't good enough and need to look themselves in the mirror, but you've got to question why Artell has let us slip to this scenario.
In his post-match interview he's talking about home truths. Home truths, after 12 games in charge??!!
My reading of the situation is this: the players don't believe in what he's trying to do. They've had a go, they've clearly failed, and I think goals four and five today epitomised a team in which the players gave up.
We have had two totally unacceptable results at home since the turn of the year. The defeats to Tranmere and Harrogate weren't massive in margin but the Tranmere one for me was the big worry. I saw players arguing with themselves, DA arguing with an official, and an air of resignation at full time.
What the owners need to do now is decide what is going to cost the club more: sacking DA or relegation to non-League for a third time.
I don't envy their position. As easy as it is for us to say 'just sack the guy' it's going to be far more complex than that. Who replaces him? Is it appropriate that such inexperience in SP & BD take over?
"Don't shine that light in my face, mate - I've just lost a pint of blood."
Artell is currently presiding over one of the worst - if not the worst - home records in the entire 146-year history of this proud club.
Before 2024 began, we'd only conceded 5+ goals at BP three times in 25 years (Donny, ironically, Burnley, and Charlton).
Now we've done it three times in seven weeks.
We are beyond the point of no return. Even if DA steadies the ship from here and we stay up, the fans will turn on him the very moment things begin to look dodgy again.
One little wobble and he'll be feeling the pressure. Because it'll be like 'Oh god, here we go again.'
Fans have lost confidence in him. I agree that the players aren't good enough and need to look themselves in the mirror, but you've got to question why Artell has let us slip to this scenario.
In his post-match interview he's talking about home truths. Home truths, after 12 games in charge??!!
My reading of the situation is this: the players don't believe in what he's trying to do. They've had a go, they've clearly failed, and I think goals four and five today epitomised a team in which the players gave up.
We have had two totally unacceptable results at home since the turn of the year. The defeats to Tranmere and Harrogate weren't massive in margin but the Tranmere one for me was the big worry. I saw players arguing with themselves, DA arguing with an official, and an air of resignation at full time.
What the owners need to do now is decide what is going to cost the club more: sacking DA or relegation to non-League for a third time.
I don't envy their position. As easy as it is for us to say 'just sack the guy' it's going to be far more complex than that. Who replaces him? Is it appropriate that such inexperience in SP & BD take over?
I will 100% turn my back if we are managed back to the conference, yet again, and I think hundreds, if not thousands will do the same - especially those who are 40/45 plus and have just had more than a belly full of it. Going back to the conference cannot be allowed to happen. It will kill the club. If the owners let the current manager have another game, or even 2, then they are playing Russian Roulette.
I’ll always support town, but you’re right - I’m 48 and I’m very lucky that I’ve never suffered with mental health problems, but honestly, following town is really, really hard most of the time, and another drop into non-league will be too much for me. I’d pick and choose my games next season if we went down. I'd had enough of non league over a decade ago.
That win at West Ham should have been that. No more. But here we are again….
I’ll always support town, but you’re right - I’m 48 and I’m very lucky that I’ve never suffered with mental health problems, but honestly, following town is really, really hard most of the time, and another drop into non-league will be too much for me. I’d pick and choose my games next season if we went down. I'd had enough of non league over a decade ago.
That win at West Ham should have been that. No more. But here we are again….
Yup. It’s 90 miles each way for home games for me and it’s a load more of my meagre spare time spent engaging. I’m 52. I’m ready to just bin it off and do something else if it means playing at that level again . My time is precious and devoting loads of it to a wilfully, infuriatingly unfulfilling and destructive pastime makes no sense.
So off the pitch we've had some impoved food, a new website, a new badge, a glass barrier, some required backlog maintenance, integrated sprinklers, a bit of drainage works and a new portacabin.
The fanzone predated them and the badge was a freebie.
On pitch rapidly turning into a new disaster + oodles of new backroom staff presumably not improving our on pitch fortunes.
Pretty small increments on what were admittedly the previous excrement show
And we paid the previous sh1t show the money we owed him ahead of time and have had to make provision in the accounts this season for a 6 figure sum to keep the main stand going. New roof on the Ponny, essential work on the Osmond and a training ground that’s functional. Oh yeah and a pitch that looked great today.
Apart from appointing a manager that to date has only talked a good game one thing I suspect they’re guilty of is listening to so called football experts,
"Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style
If we got out the league again Stockwood will have a shock i hope he has relegation clauses on these long contracts or he is going to be a lot poorer. Still at least we have a glass barrier and some better hotdogs
The owners by their own admission stuck by PH through several downturns and then sacked him accordingly due to the “data”. What is the data telling them now ? It’s telling me and everyone else who has watched us in the last few months that a poor team has been made even worse. It’s telling me we’ve shipped more goals at home than we ever have in living memory. I’ve had a brief Google of our last 2 relegation squads and it’s quite frightening in my opinion how many of them would get in this team. Artells arrogance, refusal to change his set up and constant insistence that we won’t go down despite the evidence reminds me of the old story of King Canute .
I fear, that in trying to justify their decision to bring Artell in, that the owners will give him the next two hugely vital games coming up. By the end of those matches, Forest Green or Sutton could well be within touching distance of us.
Still in free fall, we’ll then only be left with 13 games to survive the drop and scrabbling around.
They need to bin him today and give whoever takes the team the week to start to undo the damage Artell has done over the last few months.
without doubt Artell must go and go now,i cant believe we are sleepwalking into non league again.the silence from the chuckle brothers is deafeneing.too bothered about effing rainbow flags on balls and B corp bullshite. if a certain fishmonger was penny pinching like this pair of whoppers all hell would break loose,Pair off bloody charlatans whos vanity project is a bit bigger then they thought,never mind will read all about how football life isnt fair in the leftie shitrag Guardian no doubt.
without doubt Artell must go and go now,i cant believe we are sleepwalking into non league again.the silence from the chuckle brothers is deafeneing.too bothered about effing rainbow flags on balls and B corp bullshite. if a certain fishmonger was penny pinching like this pair of whoppers all hell would break loose,Pair off bloody charlatans whos vanity project is a bit bigger then they thought,never mind will read all about how football life isnt fair in the leftie shitrag Guardian no doubt.
What a load of bollox pal!!...
Stockwood and Petite took over a club who's infrastructure was on its bottom due to 20+ years of intercourse all investment in the vain hope of "football fortune".
They not only had to spend £1m plus on paying that robbing get (see trust shares" off but spent god knows how much sorting out the excrement he left behind.
Right now they have their backs against the wall, sacking Hurst was definitely the right thing to do at that time, but taking 7 weeks to replace him was a poor decision, they should've had a new manager all but lined up, certainly as they admitted they'd been watching the "data" on Hurst for the previous 6 games before Paul n Chris were relieved of their duties.
So, they now have a real decision to make, sack Artell, hold their hands up and admit they screwed up, or stick on with him, carry on alienating the fans, losing hundreds/thousands of ST holders next season and seeing a massive drop off in revenue die to losing our EFL status....
Walking out of the ground yesterday a total stranger who was very angry he shouted to anybody who would listen "if Fenty was here still he would be getting blamed for this" and it's hard not to agree, in that respect the owners must take their share of the responsibility.
Irrespective of the league we are in next season. Season ticket sales will be back to normal 3 and a half thousand and that will provide a real reality check to the owners
How do you know it’s not a Vanity Project? Do you personally know the owners and have discussed this with them? Has someone told you who has direct knowledge of why they bought the club?
If not stop posting until you have a credible source supporting your statements.
To be more specific, could be terminal for the club as a FL team. I wouldn't expect most of our fans to stick by the club again, there is only so much people can take before you start to think it's a waste of time and money to be made miserable 90% of the time.
Artell is currently presiding over one of the worst - if not the worst - home records in the entire 146-year history of this proud club.
Before 2024 began, we'd only conceded 5+ goals at BP three times in 25 years (Donny, ironically, Burnley, and Charlton).
Now we've done it three times in seven weeks.
We are beyond the point of no return. Even if DA steadies the ship from here and we stay up, the fans will turn on him the very moment things begin to look dodgy again.
One little wobble and he'll be feeling the pressure. Because it'll be like 'Oh god, here we go again.'
Fans have lost confidence in him. I agree that the players aren't good enough and need to look themselves in the mirror, but you've got to question why Artell has let us slip to this scenario.
In his post-match interview he's talking about home truths. Home truths, after 12 games in charge??!!
My reading of the situation is this: the players don't believe in what he's trying to do. They've had a go, they've clearly failed, and I think goals four and five today epitomised a team in which the players gave up.
We have had two totally unacceptable results at home since the turn of the year. The defeats to Tranmere and Harrogate weren't massive in margin but the Tranmere one for me was the big worry. I saw players arguing with themselves, DA arguing with an official, and an air of resignation at full time.
What the owners need to do now is decide what is going to cost the club more: sacking DA or relegation to non-League for a third time.
I don't envy their position. As easy as it is for us to say 'just sack the guy' it's going to be far more complex than that. Who replaces him? Is it appropriate that such inexperience in SP & BD take over?
Lol, every single football manager argues with officials on a regular basis.
Twist and let him go take the hit releasing it didn’t work and you made a mistake and pay him off.
Stick if it works out then that’s the perfect storm, we stay up end of season review the set up and staff and make some changes.
Stick and if it all goes wrong take the flack that will be rightly due aimed your way, consider two things are you cut out for this job running a football club and are their better suited individuals who could? Also you made the choice to stick so dig deep into your own pockets out spend the rest of the NL with top draw players and a manager to get us back up, or face the abyss for long period of time and see the club and fan base dwindle away like dust post Thanos clic in infinity war.
Unfortunately, the owners are responsible for the whole sorry mess this season. How they can extract themselves from this? I’m sure they are Grimsby Town fans the same as me. But - they need to ‘switch on’ and quickly - oh ! and do not place all of your faith in data.
Talk to people!
Talk to people ...LISTEN TO YOUR TOWN FANS !!!!They are trying to tell you something...UTM
An Exile and Proud !! UTM Mariners Trust Life Member. In the words of my Uncle Fred "You can take the man outta of Grimsby BUT you can't take the Grimsby! Out the man!"
No, not all of them will. It’s £24 for a ticket on the day, I’m not paying that to watch Tamworth or Dorking. It’s an expensive hobby which frankly for 20 years now has brought little in the way of enjoyment. The hope that this time would be different and the realisation that it isn’t and that we are perpetually crap will be too much for a lot to justify spending more precious time and money on.
No, not all of them will. It’s £24 for a ticket on the day, I’m not paying that to watch Tamworth or Dorking. It’s an expensive hobby which frankly for 20 years now has brought little in the way of enjoyment. The hope that this time would be different and the realisation that it isn’t and that we are perpetually crap will be too much for a lot to justify spending more precious time and money on.
No, not all of them will. It’s £24 for a ticket on the day, I’m not paying that to watch Tamworth or Dorking. It’s an expensive hobby which frankly for 20 years now has brought little in the way of enjoyment. The hope that this time would be different and the realisation that it isn’t and that we are perpetually crap will be too much for a lot to justify spending more precious time and money on.
Anyway, I thought I was blocked?
As a family, we have had 2,3 or 4 season tickets for the past 15 years. One more relegation, so soon, would probably stop that.
Why? Because they’re spending money to stand still and still not competing with other clubs of similar stature. Stockwood wants to change the rules and level up the playing field. Not going to happen.
It’s all very laudable and the business is, undoubtedly, better run but that doesn’t necessarily mean you win football matches which is why fans turn up.
You're missing my point, true supporters will as will I, and I'm telling you that as a fact!
I have to agree with Hagrid, people will still and always support but possibly won’t by a season ticket, attend in person but support from a far watch via France 😉 I for one I’m fed up of wasting my day with very little in return and those that sit around me and others I speak too feel the same.
You're missing my point, true supporters will as will I, and I'm telling you that as a fact!
Bully for you. I’ve been going for 59 years but yesterday was the final nail in the coffin as far as I’m concerned. Season tickets will definitely not be renewed, even if we manage to stay up, and not even sure I will go again this season. So I obviously don’t meet your criteria for a true supporter oh well I can live with that.
As a family, we have had 2,3 or 4 season tickets for the past 15 years. One more relegation, so soon, would probably stop that.
Why? Because they’re spending money to stand still and still not competing with other clubs of similar stature. Stockwood wants to change the rules and level up the playing field. Not going to happen.
It’s all very laudable and the business is, undoubtedly, better run but that doesn’t necessarily mean you win football matches which is why fans turn up.
Is the business better run? Last season Stockwood claimed he had to put in a million. We had record season ticket sales and an FA Cup quarter final. We made profits under Fenty with a lot less income. The improvements to the ground etc are worth nowhere near 1.5 million that it'd have to be to account for all that money.
If things were miles better either football or infrastructure wise, I'd say you're right. But to spend this much more money on a team that's just as bad and facilities that are marginally improved does not say good business to me. If it truly has cost so much then you have to question the ability to negotiate a good deal.
They're creating a monster that needs external funding to survive. And from what I hear, they don't want to supply that funding anymore.
I can’t imagine it’s very pleasant to have to part with hard earned cash unexpectedly or depart from the rational business world approach they want to adopt by recruiting someone one week and then 12 weeks later paying them up to £250k to go away but that is what they need to do.
I can’t imagine it’s very pleasant to have to part with hard earned cash unexpectedly or depart from the rational business world approach they want to adopt by recruiting someone one week and then 12 weeks later paying them up to £250k to go away but that is what they need to do.
It's money well spent if it keeps us up. The prize for being in this division next season is considerable. It would be gut wrenching to get relegated at any time but to miss out on the funding from the new tv deal will be terrible.
They can just pretend Conteh was released if it makes them feel better.
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
Is the business better run? Last season Stockwood claimed he had to put in a million. We had record season ticket sales and an FA Cup quarter final. We made profits under Fenty with a lot less income. The improvements to the ground etc are worth nowhere near 1.5 million that it'd have to be to account for all that money.
If things were miles better either football or infrastructure wise, I'd say you're right. But to spend this much more money on a team that's just as bad and facilities that are marginally improved does not say good business to me. If it truly has cost so much then you have to question the ability to negotiate a good deal.
They're creating a monster that needs external funding to survive. And from what I hear, they don't want to supply that funding anymore.
Monster!!! Spot on and the CEO upped and off having ripped the club to bits. Values my bottom.
Exactly why I offered to try and help the club commercially in my post last week as well as giving a few easy freebies to fishy friends this week to try and cheer people up.
I feel it, I smell it, I see it. We are in a very very difficult spot, This was exacerbated with 10 family members who are season ticket holders who live in Grimsby who say - no way are they buying next season.
The world has changed since they took over and simply more money is needed. This money needs to come from BUSINESS, the fans are pretty maxed out locally. I don't have a silver bullet but I can see the trends and want to genuinely help two people who are really trying, are honourable but have made some mistakes - some self-inflicted too. Everyone makes mistakes but do it with humility.
Whatever financial impact relegation had previously, it will be amplified with a much higher cost base (or massive redundancies) and be more painful.
Avoiding relegation is the only thing that needs to be achieved now. 2024 is a wasted and very expensive year. It's done, cant' change it.
We do not need to self implode and everyone has a responsibility in that - players, staff, board and fans.
It's money well spent if it keeps us up. The prize for being in this division next season is considerable. It would be gut wrenching to get relegated at any time but to miss out on the funding from the new tv deal will be terrible.
They can just pretend Conteh was released if it makes them feel better.
They would surely have put some clauses in the contract so we don't need to pay the full amount? Something like if you keep conceding more than 5 goals at home you are only entitled to a small settlement?
They would surely have put some clauses in the contract so we don't need to pay the full amount? Something like if you keep conceding more than 5 goals at home you are only entitled to a small settlement?
I would certainly expect there to be a clause that it costs us nothing if he takes us down. Hopefully there is one that it costs us nothing/very little if PPG at any point falls below 1.0.
Exactly why I offered to try and help the club commercially in my post last week as well as giving a few easy freebies to fishy friends this week to try and cheer people up.
I feel it, I smell it, I see it. We are in a very very difficult spot, This was exacerbated with 10 family members who are season ticket holders who live in Grimsby who say - no way are they buying next season.
The world has changed since they took over and simply more money is needed. This money needs to come from BUSINESS, the fans are pretty maxed out locally. I don't have a silver bullet but I can see the trends and want to genuinely help two people who are really trying, are honourable but have made some mistakes - some self-inflicted too. Everyone makes mistakes but do it with humility.
Whatever financial impact relegation had previously, it will be amplified with a much higher cost base (or massive redundancies) and be more painful.
Avoiding relegation is the only thing that needs to be achieved now. 2024 is a wasted and very expensive year. It's done, cant' change it.
We do not need to self implode and everyone has a responsibility in that - players, staff, board and fans.
Look forward and trust them to recover and learn.
See what you did there!! Very good.
On a serious note, I agree, I don't see any point spending hard earned cash on something that has stopped being enjoyable. I looked at yesterday's team sheet and the midfield had humiliation written all over it.
Personal opinion is that Stockwood and Pettit have maxxed out on improving the business and not invested enough on the pitch. The scoreline on a Saturday afternoon/Tuesday night is what keeps the customers happy not whether or not the Under 8's have a lead development coach. I know that's the future - I get it - but, unless the first team performs, we won't afford a youth set up at all.
Is the business better run? Last season Stockwood claimed he had to put in a million. We had record season ticket sales and an FA Cup quarter final. We made profits under Fenty with a lot less income. The improvements to the ground etc are worth nowhere near 1.5 million that it'd have to be to account for all that money.
If things were miles better either football or infrastructure wise, I'd say you're right. But to spend this much more money on a team that's just as bad and facilities that are marginally improved does not say good business to me. If it truly has cost so much then you have to question the ability to negotiate a good deal.
They're creating a monster that needs external funding to survive. And from what I hear, they don't want to supply that funding anymore.
You'd have to hazard a guess at the staffing structure which must be bloated to suck up so much football fortune, which we've had a lot of in such a short period.
We sold Pollock, Grist, McAtee and Conteh, we've had the Dembele sell on. We've had a once in 50 years cup run and two booming years for season ticket sales, far far higher than ever seen before.
They would surely have put some clauses in the contract so we don't need to pay the full amount? Something like if you keep conceding more than 5 goals at home you are only entitled to a small settlement?
You'd hope so but don't forget we approached him so you would expect favourable terms. Given the previous manager was sacked it would seem unlikely to have any clauses so early. Maybe there is a release clause for relegation. Too little too late though.
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
In his "welcome" video I remember Artell saying "I get it. If results aren't good enough then I'm gone. That's the nature of the job." Well results aren't good enough ...........
without doubt Artell must go and go now,i cant believe we are sleepwalking into non league again.the silence from the chuckle brothers is deafeneing.too bothered about effing rainbow flags on balls and B corp bullshite. if a certain fishmonger was penny pinching like this pair of whoppers all hell would break loose,Pair off bloody charlatans whos vanity project is a bit bigger then they thought,never mind will read all about how football life isnt fair in the leftie shitrag Guardian no doubt.
Utter nonsense
"Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style
You'd have to hazard a guess at the staffing structure which must be bloated to suck up so much football fortune, which we've had a lot of in such a short period.
We sold Pollock, Grist, McAtee and Conteh, we've had the Dembele sell on. We've had a once in 50 years cup run and two booming years for season ticket sales, far far higher than ever seen before.
That's my point, it's not suggesting a well run business.
And neither is the Conteh deal either. To sign a player for a fee and give them a low value release clause on a 3 year contract is at best naive and worst negligent. The club had all the risk of losing the fee and 3 years of, presumably, high salary for an untried player in the EFL. So if it went badly we lose a lot financially, but if it goes well then we make a small amount.
It's bad enough looking at that deal from a financial point of view, but you've then got the hole that was left behind of trying to replace your best midfielder, in January when it's notoriously difficult or expensive to sign good players. At the very least, that release clause shouldn't have kicked in until the summer.
No sell on fee for Pollock either. What are all these football consultants doing for their fee?
That's my point, it's not suggesting a well run business.
And neither is the Conteh deal either. To sign a player for a fee and give them a low value release clause on a 3 year contract is at best naive and worst negligent. The club had all the risk of losing the fee and 3 years of, presumably, high salary for an untried player in the EFL. So if it went badly we lose a lot financially, but if it goes well then we make a small amount.
It's bad enough looking at that deal from a financial point of view, but you've then got the hole that was left behind of trying to replace your best midfielder, in January when it's notoriously difficult or expensive to sign good players. At the very least, that release clause shouldn't have kicked in until the summer.
No sell on fee for Pollock either. What are all these football consultants doing for their fee?
Why don't you just come out and say the owners are crooks, frauds and charlatans and honest John was doing a better job!!...FFS
I think as regards the owners, at this moment in time they are looking too far ahead to some golden future where we are playing swashbuckling winning football, and are not tackling the here and now, with the distinct possibility that the immediate future is back in non league. Literally fiddling while Rome burns.
Artell has gone from , "we won't go down" and "there is no plan B" to admitting we were being a bit more pragmatic in yesterdays game, and recognising that relegation is a possibility. That has happened inside a week.
I hope the mindset of the owners catching up and today they are discussing an exit package for DA and contacting someone who can get the team to at least look competent.
Is the business better run? Last season Stockwood claimed he had to put in a million. We had record season ticket sales and an FA Cup quarter final. We made profits under Fenty with a lot less income. The improvements to the ground etc are worth nowhere near 1.5 million that it'd have to be to account for all that money.
If things were miles better either football or infrastructure wise, I'd say you're right. But to spend this much more money on a team that's just as bad and facilities that are marginally improved does not say good business to me. If it truly has cost so much then you have to question the ability to negotiate a good deal.
They're creating a monster that needs external funding to survive. And from what I hear, they don't want to supply that funding anymore.
In regards to how the business side of the club is run there are several red flags...
* No sponsor for what was once called the Findus Stand for the 2nd season running.
* The club have never secured any naming rights for the Main Stand, Pontoon Stand or the Osmond Stand. Is there another club at our level without any of the stands having a sponsor?
* The club have been looking for naming rights for Blundell Park for years and have failed. 13 out of the 24 grounds in L2 have naming rights agreements.
* We only have one shirt sponsor who appears on the front and back of all 3 shirts and the back of all 3 shorts. We don't have a shirt sleeve sponsor at all. Does that offer the best possible income stream from on kit sponsorship?
If we asked the owners no doubt they'd say that nobody has paid the asking price for all these missed revenue streams. But it's like selling a house, it;s worth what somebody is willing to pay for it and not a penny more.
It all points to nothing having actually changed behind the scenes at the club.
I seem to remember the owners saying recently (fans forum?) that there wasn’t any investors lurking around that time and that they weren’t looking for any. Why? We’ve got the best home gates we’ve had in decades and money from the cup run last season and we still can’t compete. Golly brings up a great point about back of shirt sponsorships too. I’ve always thought it was amateurish to have Young’s and myenergi on the front and back of the kits.
That's my point, it's not suggesting a well run business.
And neither is the Conteh deal either. To sign a player for a fee and give them a low value release clause on a 3 year contract is at best naive and worst negligent. The club had all the risk of losing the fee and 3 years of, presumably, high salary for an untried player in the EFL. So if it went badly we lose a lot financially, but if it goes well then we make a small amount.
It's bad enough looking at that deal from a financial point of view, but you've then got the hole that was left behind of trying to replace your best midfielder, in January when it's notoriously difficult or expensive to sign good players. At the very least, that release clause shouldn't have kicked in until the summer.
No sell on fee for Pollock either. What are all these football consultants doing for their fee?
I do agree and I have been amazed at their naivety thus far. The deal with McAtee was the same - basically gave our best player away whilst hoping to forge good relationships with Luton. Luton aren't bothered about us, and never will be.
We are not hearing much about Gareth Jennings any more and all the "expertise " he was going to bring to the organisation. Very little of what they do or say seems grounded enough in the dog eat dog of professional football.
Most appointments are the wrong appointment it's about how you deal with it.
I feel much more confident in them than I ever felt under Fenty. They like anyone will get stuff wrong, I don't think they'll lie, hold the fans to ransom and bring crooks into the club.
They are now giving people an easy 'no' for next season .
To get torched this many times , humiliated even will be terminal for a lot ,in terms of trust in the board on the footballing side and willing to attend games .
Stayed longer in the bar at halftime and had a pint with a regular , he binned it off after seeing them put another in the onion bag on the screen - went home .
He won't go again while Artell is here .
It's so frustrating the great gains in terms of fans willing to attend is more than likely going to be erroded because of all this .
I thought we were moving forward even if at a slow pace ,but I think now maybe going further backwards than square one .
The Scunts, Imps and even Doncaster fans are pissing themselves
I would certainly expect there to be a clause that it costs us nothing if he takes us down. Hopefully there is one that it costs us nothing/very little if PPG at any point falls below 1.0.
If there is a clause that says there is no compo if relegated then we are stuck with him until the end of the season so I hope not
I do agree and I have been amazed at their naivety thus far. The deal with McAtee was the same - basically gave our best player away whilst hoping to forge good relationships with Luton. Luton aren't bothered about us, and never will be.
We are not hearing much about Gareth Jennings any more and all the "expertise " he was going to bring to the organisation. Very little of what they do or say seems grounded enough in the dog eat dog of professional football.
Gareth Jennings, 21st Group, Loughborough University all these partnerships don't appear to have made one jot of difference. 89th out of 92 in the league structure.
Most appointments are the wrong appointment it's about how you deal with it.
I feel much more confident in them than I ever felt under Fenty. They like anyone will get stuff wrong, I don't think they'll lie, hold the fans to ransom and bring crooks into the club.
Given the predicament we are in the owners need to either sack Artell or front up and give an interview to BBC RH. Silence won't wash. If the owner has time to write article after article for the Graudian then I'm sure he can find half an hour to be grilled by Matt Dean.
Gareth Jennings, 21st Group, Loughborough University all these partnerships don't appear to have made one jot of difference. 89th out of 92 in the league structure.
Maybe that’s the issue he might have a clause in his contract he can be sacked if relegated. Otherwise they have to pay him 2 years of his contract probably 250k
I’m completely perplexed about what’s going on. I’m not close enough to pick up on local gossip but how can a side be so awful at home but battle to get performances away?
How can a team make so many mistakes when on top in a game? Even yesterday after a shambolic start they were in the game at half time, and could have been ahead.
In all my time following Town since the 1950s I can’t remember them conceding 5 or more on three occasions at home, and the season still has time to run.
I hope the owners take time to meet with some of the senior players before making decisions…..
Most appointments are the wrong appointment it's about how you deal with it.
I feel much more confident in them than I ever felt under Fenty. They like anyone will get stuff wrong, I don't think they'll lie, hold the fans to ransom and bring crooks into the club.
Fenty was very popular in his first few years but long outstayed his position. In the end he lost the plot and made some terrible decisions. It's an incredibly hard and stressful job and you don't even get paid for it. Every decision is microanalysed. Many people would be broken by it. Huxford didn't last 5 minutes.
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
In regards to how the business side of the club is run there are several red flags...
* No sponsor for what was once called the Findus Stand for the 2nd season running.
* The club have never secured any naming rights for the Main Stand, Pontoon Stand or the Osmond Stand. Is there another club at our level without any of the stands having a sponsor?
* The club have been looking for naming rights for Blundell Park for years and have failed. 13 out of the 24 grounds in L2 have naming rights agreements.
* We only have one shirt sponsor who appears on the front and back of all 3 shirts and the back of all 3 shorts. We don't have a shirt sleeve sponsor at all. Does that offer the best possible income stream from on kit sponsorship?
If we asked the owners no doubt they'd say that nobody has paid the asking price for all these missed revenue streams. But it's like selling a house, it;s worth what somebody is willing to pay for it and not a penny more.
It all points to nothing having actually changed behind the scenes at the club.
I'm sure at the fan's forum they claimed commercial revenue was up 70%. It's another statement that contradicts what's in front of us, but I guess we'll see when the accounts are imminently released.
I don't really see those all as being the biggest red flags, but they do show that we haven't really moved forwards in that department despite hiring more staff to work in it.
If there is a clause that says there is no compo if relegated then we are stuck with him until the end of the season so I hope not
Why? Explain that. It’s not correct. We’re not stuck with him. Any cost involved in paying him off will be significantly less than the revenue we would lose if we were relegated. Again. Getting rid and getting someone else won’t guarantee safety of course; it’s a gamble, but the writing is on the wall and has been for a few weeks. Not making the call isn’t really a decision. It’s a self con. You can’t just keep hoping for the best and ignoring the evidence and walking into the abyss.
Maybe that’s the issue he might have a clause in his contract he can be sacked if relegated. Otherwise they have to pay him 2 years of his contract probably 250k
If we get relegated we lose all of the Premier League solidarity payment (£650,000+ per season) and receive half of the EFL TV money for 2 seasons as parachite payments (around £275,000 lost for the first 2 seasons and then all gone after that).
To think allowing DA to oversee a relegation would somehow save us money overall is completely wrong.
I'm sure at the fan's forum they claimed commercial revenue was up 70%. It's another statement that contradicts what's in front of us, but I guess we'll see when the accounts are imminently released.
I don't really see those all as being the biggest red flags, but they do show that we haven't really moved forwards in that department despite hiring more staff to work in it.
It's alright preaching these statistics like commercial income is up 70%, but what constitutes commercial income? My guess is that they are counting ticket sales. Surely myenergi (who are going through a second round of large redundancies it appears) aren't paying significantly more than Young's for much less? Young's got front of shirt, back of shirt, shorts, stand naming rights, a good number of corporate tickets and discount off ticket prices for their staff.
It's alright preaching these statistics like commercial income is up 70%, but what constitutes commercial income? My guess is that they are counting ticket sales. Surely myenergi (who are going through a second round of large redundancies it appears) aren't paying significantly more than Young's for much less? Young's got front of shirt, back of shirt, shorts, stand naming rights, a good number of corporate tickets and discount off ticket prices for their staff.
It's alright preaching these statistics like commercial income is up 70%, but what constitutes commercial income? My guess is that they are counting ticket sales. Surely myenergi (who are going through a second round of large redundancies it appears) aren't paying significantly more than Young's for much less? Young's got front of shirt, back of shirt, shorts, stand naming rights, a good number of corporate tickets and discount off ticket prices for their staff.
Commercial income is likely to get better if the product is better. Currently, we’re playing excrement football in a excrement ground in a excrement area where the streets are full of dog excrement.
It’s not a great situation but it’s the uncomfortable reality.
If we get relegated we lose all of the Premier League solidarity payment (£650,000+ per season) and receive half of the EFL TV money for 2 seasons as parachite payments (around £275,000 lost for the first 2 seasons and then all gone after that).
To think allowing DA to oversee a relegation would somehow save us money overall is completely wrong.
It’s not as simple as that though is it they could sack him pay the compo and still get relegated . With this set of players that remains a strong possibility . They could keep him scrape half a dozen more points and rely on the bottom two failing to get enough points to overhaul us . The spreadsheets will be working overtime
It's alright preaching these statistics like commercial income is up 70%, but what constitutes commercial income? My guess is that they are counting ticket sales. Surely myenergi (who are going through a second round of large redundancies it appears) aren't paying significantly more than Young's for much less? Young's got front of shirt, back of shirt, shorts, stand naming rights, a good number of corporate tickets and discount off ticket prices for their staff.
My assumption is they're putting something else in that bucket that used to go in a different one. But it's hard to tell because they've changed so much in how the accounts are reported.
What constitutes commercial income, because as others have said earlier in this thread, it doesn't make sense when you look around. I suppose we've sold out kits on the opening day two years on the bounce. I would like to see a breakdown of our commercial income statistics because stand naming rights have gone down 100%.
If we get relegated we lose all of the Premier League solidarity payment (£650,000+ per season) and receive half of the EFL TV money for 2 seasons as parachite payments (around £275,000 lost for the first 2 seasons and then all gone after that).
To think allowing DA to oversee a relegation would somehow save us money overall is completely wrong.
It’s not as simple as that though is it they coukd sack him pay the compo and still get relegated . With this set of clubs layers that remains a strong possibility . They could keep him scrape half a dozen more points and rely on the bottom two failing to get enough points to overhaul us . The spreadsheets will be working overtime
My assumption is they're putting something else in that bucket that used to go in a different one. But it's hard to tell because they've changed so much in how the accounts are reported.
When the accounts are published this week or next the only figure that really matters is how much the owners have put into the club. If it turns out that all that has happened is Fentys loan of £1.5m has been replaced by a similar one owed to 1878 Partners then the owners will have been ‘ unlucky’ that this came to light at such a toxic time.
It’s not as simple as that though is it they coukd sack him pay the compo and still get relegated . With this set of clubs layers that remains a strong possibility . They could keep him scrape half a dozen more points and rely on the bottom two failing to get enough points to overhaul us . The spreadsheets will be working overtime
The other factor leaning towards sacking him even if he somehow managed to keep us up is the irreparable damage that's likely occurred on season ticket sales nomatter what division we are in. Its a tarnished brand.
It's lose lose in monetary terms, however rolling the dice has a greater potential for upside.
JS loves spouting his views now we actually need to hear from him it's deafening silence. Ffs grow a pair admit you made a mistake and rectify it today. The fans will vote with there feet BP will have plenty of empty seats till Season end unless the board act.What on earth are they waiting for?
You'd hope so but don't forget we approached him so you would expect favourable terms. Given the previous manager was sacked it would seem unlikely to have any clauses so early. Maybe there is a release clause for relegation. Too little too late though.
My fears too - to get rid would be costly and they can only dodge that cost if we get relegated, but that would cost vastly more in itself. Between a rock and a hard place. Personally I think we just have to bite the bullet, admit he's been a disaster, use the conteh money to pay off Artell and probably go back to Shaun and Ben in the short term. If they do ok we stick, if not then more money for somebody like Adams or Flynn. And pray we don't go down and then reassess in the summer.
Stockwood no balls and that's us down .No better than Fenty they deserve each other pair of Charlatans and I've been hoodwinked for the last time.Seething
That's getting close to something from the Fenty playbook. We won't be told by social media what to do.
Since almost day 1 he's been like a better spoken version of Fenty. He literally complained about a fan in his interview after the first game we played under them. The good will got him away with it, but that's well and truly gone now.
Even Fenty had the stones to sack a very expensive mistake in Bignot before it was too late. The money tap has been turned off, there's no other explanation.
Since almost day 1 he's been like a better spoken version of Fenty. He literally complained about a fan in his interview after the first game we played under them. The good will got him away with it, but that's well and truly gone now.
Even Fenty had the stones to sack a very expensive mistake in Bignot before it was too late. The money tap has been turned off, there's no other explanation.
I've had enough of Stockwood and his BS you're right he's just a more intelligent version of Fenty but without the brass neck to face up to the fans Get your wallet out and get us in a proper Manager you've dropped a huge bollock now admit it.
I don't know if I am reading that correctly but is he saying they accept responsibility for having negative comments said against them but not accepting they are responsible for us being 3rd from bottom of the EFL and looking at the National League again?
1878 have had a good run and have enjoyed almost total support from the fans. Sacking Hurst and appointing Artell was the first big foul up and keeping him is a classic case of burying there heads and hoping for the best.Fenty did that ffs do we never learn? I've had Town lack ambition chucked at me for years by those who don't go and I've always defended the Club but maybe I was wrong? If 3rd from bottom is a job well done for 1878 it stinks and it will lose them at least 25% of STH including me. Show us some ambition or sell up and get out
It's part of life I'm afraid and a lot more good stuff comes from negativity than you think - often because it's the truth and then things can be mended.
I've had enough of Stockwood and his BS you're right he's just a more intelligent version of Fenty but without the brass neck to face up to the fans Get your wallet out and get us in a proper Manager you've dropped a huge bollock now admit it.
That's just balderdash. How can you forget the way he treated the fans, the club and the people who he worked with.
Comparing the new owners to Fenty is night and day. The way the club is run has been dragged into the 21st century, there are no worries about shady motives to do with the ground and criminals. The Chairman regularly answers any questions from media. And so much more. It's a hard thing to do and success rarely happens in a straight line.
They've spent pots of money improving the ground and training facilities, the team regularly stays over and prepares properly for away days, the players and players families are looked after.
Add to that we've had a promotion and an FA Cup quarter final in the three years they've been in charge.
This is their first relegation battle, Fenty lost 4 of those. I don't agree with their decision, but the two regimes are not even similar. I'm off the opinion that club owners shouldn't be lauded and worshipped, they don't kick the balls, it's usually an ego thing and a rich man's toy. And to be fair to our owners I think there's a bit of that. I find Stockwood a bit of a bore and feel like he loves the sound of his own voice.
But I'd take that and have him in a heartbeat over the previous regime. Do I read his self indulgent guardian articles? No Do I believe that him and Andrew are trying to improve the club? Yes
Bold choice. I think it could be delaying the inevitable for a week or two. I'd have had the girl private gone.
Seems to me like sacking him will cost too much money and won't guarantee we stay up, so they are just crossing their fingers in the hope something changes. To quote Stockwood, sometimes you have to affect change. Doing nothing is an even bigger gamble with our EFL status than to take a chance that somebody can be better than the worst manager in our history. I also think, from the Artell interview, that he will have told them(Stockwood and petit) he has had an open and honest discussion with players, told them home truths and been told home truths in return and thus he will change things. And also that the next game is away and we are better away. I reckon he will be given a last chance against Morecambe but it's just kicking the can down the road. If we manage a draw he limps on into the next home game against FG and disaster looms - sorry Stockwood, affect change and sack Artell ASAP in order to give us time for the massive game against FG our league status quite possibly depends on it
I've had enough of Stockwood and his BS you're right he's just a more intelligent version of Fenty but without the brass neck to face up to the fans Get your wallet out and get us in a proper Manager you've dropped a huge bollock now admit it.
I’ve got no problem with people criticising Stockwood and Pettit but this is a footballing error. It’s got nothing to do with B Corp, politics or his articles in The Guardian.
They appear to have selected the wrong manager. They’ve made a mistake. It could be a costly mistake but it is just a mistake; the same footballing mistakes as Fenty and most other football owners make every season.
Clifton giving the ball away for their second or Cartwright not saving the fifth were mistakes. They are forgivable.
Not tracking players, turning your back on shots, actively avoiding engaging players and pulling out of tackles are not mistakes. They are completely disgraceful acts that show a lack of respect to the club and the fans.
In a similar vein, trying to sell the club to a convicted criminal and bringing the club into disrepute are not mistakes. They were disgusting acts too.
1878 have had a good run and have enjoyed almost total support from the fans. Sacking Hurst and appointing Artell was the first big foul up and keeping him is a classic case of burying there heads and hoping for the best.Fenty did that ffs do we never learn? I've had Town lack ambition chucked at me for years by those who don't go and I've always defended the Club but maybe I was wrong? If 3rd from bottom is a job well done for 1878 it stinks and it will lose them at least 25% of STH including me. Show us some ambition or sell up and get out
It'll be a job well done from this point in the season, but it's nobody's aim at the start is it.
Maybe that’s the issue he might have a clause in his contract he can be sacked if relegated. Otherwise they have to pay him 2 years of his contract probably 250k
Yoda, you don't understand football do you,..
The contract could be 125 years but its the termination period that's the import factor.
Listened to Gary Rowett, Ainsworth and Sherwood discussing this exact issue and they said most managerial appointments will have a 6 month termination written into their contracts, to protect the club but give the manager some assurance that if it goes mammaries up he's not left in the excrement financially
Artell allowed an open conversation with the players after the game yesterday and some home truths were raised by senior squad members. He then talks to the owners last night/this morning (maybe both) and admits that he’s made some mistakes and asks them for a chance to change things and they’ve agreed to it on the basis that he’s got a relatively short window (of the owners discretion) in which to turn things round.
I can’t imagine that they will allow this to run and run.
This post speaks volumes to me ...what about the rest of you ?
An Exile and Proud !! UTM Mariners Trust Life Member. In the words of my Uncle Fred "You can take the man outta of Grimsby BUT you can't take the Grimsby! Out the man!"
That's just balderdash. How can you forget the way he treated the fans, the club and the people who he worked with.
Comparing the new owners to Fenty is night and day. The way the club is run has been dragged into the 21st century, there are no worries about shady motives to do with the ground and criminals. The Chairman regularly answers any questions from media. And so much more. It's a hard thing to do and success rarely happens in a straight line.
They've spent pots of money improving the ground and training facilities, the team regularly stays over and prepares properly for away days, the players and players families are looked after.
Add to that we've had a promotion and an FA Cup quarter final in the three years they've been in charge.
This is their first relegation battle, Fenty lost 4 of those. I don't agree with their decision, but the two regimes are not even similar. I'm off the opinion that club owners shouldn't be lauded and worshipped, they don't kick the balls, it's usually an ego thing and a rich man's toy. And to be fair to our owners I think there's a bit of that. I find Stockwood a bit of a bore and feel like he loves the sound of his own voice.
But I'd take that and have him in a heartbeat over the previous regime. Do I read his self indulgent guardian articles? No Do I believe that him and Andrew are trying to improve the club? Yes
They probably don't want to come forward in public but you may find some staff who are no longer with the club being unhappy with the way they were treated.
Are we better off than when they were here?
As for the way the club is currently being run, we now have more backroom staff than you can shake a stick at and look where it has taken us to, staring at a big hole called non league.
We all know that we are in the S**t. What we can’t work out is why and what to do about it.
Any suggestion to return to Fentyism should be resisted at all costs.
If there was an honest frank exchange of views by players and management after the game, good. So long as improvements come along starting Saturday. Wholesale winging and bickering achieves nothing, and may even make things worse.
The team will have my support next weekend, as I’m sure many others will give. Let’s hope it brings a smile to our faces. Two wins in next two games isn’t a season, but the 6 points gained would make one hell of a difference to the mood music.
If only Stockwood had written for the Daily Mail, all this could’ve been avoided.
Mr Stockwood with all your statistics theory Tell me please how many Grimsby fans read the Guardian or what is the readership in Grimsby area? IT'S your fans going through the turnstiles put cash in the club tills, at present watching poor football dwindling fanbase. Oh yes I read "The Times" even though it takes me all day to read it LOL!! You gotta laugh at the moment or you will cry.
UTM
An Exile and Proud !! UTM Mariners Trust Life Member. In the words of my Uncle Fred "You can take the man outta of Grimsby BUT you can't take the Grimsby! Out the man!"
What does “accepting responsibility” actually mean or more importantly look like? If you say “responsibility” then you have to create some form of change on the back of it don’t you?
To hit the magic 50 points we need 1.4 PPG under Artell it’s been 8.3PPG (I think) that would require a swing of 41% the players just don’t have it in them.
Each time you lose the required PPG goes up until only wins will do & eventually the sand runs out.
Both JS & AP are Town barmy, they must be to do what they’ve done/doing but if we start next season in the NL that’s a horrible responsibility to bear.
Personally I think if we don’t best FGR they’ll sack Artell, that would leave 13 games which would still be a massive challenge.
"Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style
The contract could be 125 years but its the termination period that's the import factor.
Listened to Gary Rowett, Ainsworth and Sherwood discussing this exact issue and they said most managerial appointments will have a 6 month termination written into their contracts, to protect the club but give the manager some assurance that if it goes mammaries up he's not left in the excrement financially
As you say, it depends on the contract so there may not be a clause in it so we could be responsible for paying up his full contract.
Mr Stockwood with all your statistics theory Tell me please how many Grimsby fans read the Guardian or what is the readership in Grimsby area? IT'S your fans going through the turnstiles put cash in the club tills, at present watching poor football dwindling fanbase. Oh yes I read "The Times" even though it takes me all day to read it LOL!! You gotta laugh at the moment or you will cry.
UTM
I mean, what does any of that have to do with anything?
This post speaks volumes to me ...what about the rest of you ?
I'd hope it isn't true but if it is then the players must go. Unfortunately they're all here till season's end and Artell has just got to hope enough points can be scraped together in the next ten weeks or so to survive. Then in the summer he can put together a squad who have more professional pride.
I'd hope it isn't true but if it is then the players must go. Unfortunately they're all here till season's end and Artell has just got to hope enough points can be scraped together in the next ten weeks or so to survive. Then in the summer he can put together a squad who have more professional pride.
I don’t think it’s as simple as that. Players will talk to their agents who will talk to their other players and, as difficult as it is already to attract players, it will become harder.
We all know that we are in the S**t. What we can’t work out is why and what to do about it.
Any suggestion to return to Fentyism should be resisted at all costs.
If there was an honest frank exchange of views by players and management after the game, good. So long as improvements come along starting Saturday. Wholesale winging and bickering achieves nothing, and may even make things worse.
The team will have my support next weekend, as I’m sure many others will give. Let’s hope it brings a smile to our faces. Two wins in next two games isn’t a season, but the 6 points gained would make one hell of a difference to the mood music.
It's simple why we are in the excrement.
Hurst signed some crap players with some of the FA Cup money. Then he had a poor spell with the data saying he had to go.
Then we dithered in getting a replacement eventually giving the job to someone who had been out of work for ages.
Then this new manager decided to play a way that our players couldn't do, so signed some more players that have turned out to be more crap than what Hurst signed and we are now getting dicked each game.
Artell allowed an open conversation with the players after the game yesterday and some home truths were raised by senior squad members. He then talks to the owners last night/this morning (maybe both) and admits that he’s made some mistakes and asks them for a chance to change things and they’ve agreed to it on the basis that he’s got a relatively short window (of the owners discretion) in which to turn things round.
I can’t imagine that they will allow this to run and run.
I like the idea but do we have the time to indulge in this? He has failed in his time here so just get rid. I like the guy but it's a matter of nice bloke at the wrong time.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
I like the idea but do we have the time to indulge in this? He has failed in his time here so just get rid. I like the guy but it's a matter of nice bloke at the wrong time.
I don’t disagree with you - he would have gone last night for me - I was just trying to theorise why he didn’t.
I wouldn’t have used the phrase ‘negative comments’ and I’m surprised JS did. He’s articulate and reflective usually, so I’m surprised he didn’t prefer something like ‘understandable frustrations’ or ‘angry and disappointed reactions’ or some such. Perhaps he was referring specifically to the verbal abuse DA received from some attendees at the game ? Ok, we can probably all agree that verbal abuse is unpleasant and unwanted, and universally agreeable as negative, but why only mention them and not the thousands of others who have shared their feelings and views and dissatisfaction in other legitimate ways? Surely we are the majority.
If he does sense ‘negativity’ and reflects on that, then surely he can’t escape the conclusion that he has to expunge that. Negativity breeds failure and it’s an ugly look for an organisation with your name as responsible owner. This is how he seems to think. Failure, anger, negativity, humiliation, are not aspects of a ‘culture and environment’ they would associate with. Got to end it and only one way. If not - next game we lose, and it all comes back. If it’s at home it’ll be twice as bad. Twice as abusive. Twice as loud. Twice as prevalent. It’s over already between the supporters and the manager. Patience has run out. It’s already an overdrawn account.
No, the only way to survive is to create conditions in which we can actually rally around the cause and stick together, even if we lose. We’ve got to be able to lose and react and bounce back without poisoning our own water, as it were. it’s the only way to have a team spirit, and to grind out a few more points.
I wouldn’t have used the phrase ‘negative comments’ and I’m surprised JS did. He’s articulate and reflective usually, so I’m surprised he didn’t prefer something like ‘understandable frustrations’ or ‘angry and disappointed reactions’ or some such. Perhaps he was referring specifically to the verbal abuse DA received from some attendees at the game ? Ok, we can probably all agree that verbal abuse is unpleasant and unwanted, and universally agreeable as negative, but why only mention them and not the thousands of others who have shared their feelings and views and dissatisfaction in other legitimate ways? Surely we are the majority.
If he does sense ‘negativity’ and reflects on that, then surely he can’t escape the conclusion that he has to expunge that. Negativity breeds failure and it’s an ugly look for an organisation with your name as responsible owner. This is how he seems to think. Failure, anger, negativity, humiliation, are not aspects of a ‘culture and environment’ they would associate with. Got to end it and only one way. If not - next game we lose, and it all comes back. If it’s at home it’ll be twice as bad. Twice as abusive. Twice as loud. Twice as prevalent. It’s over already between the supporters and the manager. Patience has run out. It’s already an overdrawn account.
No, the only way to survive is to create conditions in which we can actually rally around the cause and stick together, even if we lose. We’ve got to be able to lose and react and bounce back without poisoning our own water, as it were. it’s the only way to have a team spirit, and to grind out a few more points.
The whole tweet surprised me. The decision, the tone, the language and the fact that it even appeared at all.
It’s over already between the supporters and the manager. Patience has run out. It’s already an overdrawn account. .
I think this is the really key point. I'm already sick of hearing him and his BS in interviews as, it seems, are the majority of our fanbase. I don't trust he can coach, I don't trust that he can motivate and I don't trust that he can organise a team based around it's strengths and to minimise it's weaknesses. Judging by the signings as well, I also don't trust that he can recruit well and this is backed up by the majority of Crewe fans from his tenure there.
So even in the unlikely event that he keeps his job and we stay in the FL, how many fans will be enthused for the new season? How many will renew season tickets? It's going to have a massive effect on the playing budget and the reputation of the club and manager is hardly going to help attract players here either. Barring a miraculous turnaround in results and performance which I think we can all agree is highly unlikely, I don't see a future where Artell's reign works out here.
The whole tweet surprised me. The decision, the tone, the language and the fact that it even appeared at all.
Definitely ego is running through that tweet and he couldn’t help having a little dig about negativity. What about the shite served up by the management and the players?
For me even if we stay up, where do we go from here? Puts a pressure on immediately in close season / pre season How does DA reconcile ? Results so next season we would need to see immediate progress and positives
What's the plan now ? How has it been revised or is it on track despite results?? I very much doubt the latter!
I thought we were guided by the data? Is our analyst on holiday or something? You don't need to be a statistical genius to see that Artell is shite. Don't buy the argument that getting rid will cost too much, just put him on gardening leave - unless Ben and Shaun have said they don't want to take over again...
I thought we were guided by the data? Is our analyst on holiday or something? You don't need to be a statistical genius to see that Artell is shite. Don't buy the argument that getting rid will cost too much, just put him on gardening leave - unless Ben and Shaun have said they don't want to take over again...
According to Artell we played really well between the 1st and 5th minutes yesterday so that must be the data Stockwood is looking at…
They probably don't want to come forward in public but you may find some staff who are no longer with the club being unhappy with the way they were treated.
Are we better off than when they were here?
As for the way the club is currently being run, we now have more backroom staff than you can shake a stick at and look where it has taken us to, staring at a big hole called non league.
Apparently the way staff are being appointed leaves a lot to be desired.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day,teach a man to fish and you give him an excuse for him to escape from the wife and kids for the weekend and drink lots of beer.
The owners need to understand the difference between sustainable and successful
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day,teach a man to fish and you give him an excuse for him to escape from the wife and kids for the weekend and drink lots of beer.
The dig in comment is a little vacuous. I make it six games left at BP this season unless I’ve calculated incorrectly.
That’s six decisions (in a cost of living crisis) about whether to spend associated costs with going to BP, as we have been all season, expecting a change and being disappointed.
So yes we can dig in and continue doing the same ol’ things expecting a change but when the rubber meets the road at season ticket renewal time, I know I’ll be ruled by head this year and not heart
I do appreciate Jason making a tweet and I don’t for one minute think they have an easy job- I wouldn’t want it. However the gap I see week in and week out is a leader on the pitch.
It looks like artell rules by proxy- and I don’t know enough about his methods to say he is a good or bad boss
But a seasoned and respected voice on the pitch when a match is on makes a huge difference.
Just calling it as I see it- however I’m sure there is a lot more going on that we will ever be privy to…
The dig in comment is a little vacuous. I make it six games left at BP this season unless I’ve calculated incorrectly.
That’s six decisions (in a cost of living crisis) about whether to spend associated costs with going to BP, as we have been all season, expecting a change and being disappointed.
So yes we can dig in and continue doing the same ol’ things expecting a change but when the rubber meets the road at season ticket renewal time, I know I’ll be ruled by head this year and not heart
I do appreciate Jason making a tweet and I don’t for one minute think they have an easy job- I wouldn’t want it. However the gap I see week in and week out is a leader on the pitch.
It looks like artell rules by proxy- and I don’t know enough about his methods to say he is a good or bad boss
But a seasoned and respected voice on the pitch when a match is on makes a huge difference.
Just calling it as I see it- however I’m sure there is a lot more going on that we will ever be privy to…
5750 ST holders , I don't think a good few of them will be at the FGR game, unless we smash The Shrimpers which seems unlikely .
We’ll lose to Morecambe - I think that’s an absolute certainty with DA, but I think there’ll be a big crowd for FGR. If he’s still in charge for that game, and we’ve been tonked at Morecambe it will go off in BP in ugly and toxic style if we go behind/lose. The owners can avoid this of course, if they act now and remove him. It’s the only way.
I can't wrap my head around what they think is going to change next week, if its purely about the money then that's shocking decision making. This is not the time to for ostrich management.
I’m appreciate what JS & AP have done as clearly it’s made a massive difference overall and I still have faith in them to do the right thing. If we lose v FGR I suspect that will be it for Artell.
At first I wasn’t too worried about the tweet and did reply about our PPG under Artel versus what’s required across the next 15 games.
Actually though the more I dwell on it the more it’s triggered me, over 6,000+ Town supporters “dug in” yesterday and have been digging in good numbers despite a cost of living crisis all this season & amazingly have been all the way through the Artell debacle.
"Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style
Just as a minor comment, I have never seen such comprehensive agreement on anything to do with town. I was totally behind Artell, personally, and wanted so badly for him to succeed, but it ain’t happening. In fact, what IS happening is cataclysmic. Yesterday changed my perspective - this cannot go on.
What an awful, awful situation we’ve had put upon us. Sometimes I wonder what we’ve done wrong in a past life (and I’m not a believer in any of that cack).
I’m appreciate what JS & AP have done as clearly it’s made a massive difference overall and I still have faith in them to do the right thing. If we lose v FGR I suspect that will be it for Artell.
At first I wasn’t too worried about the tweet and did reply about our PPG under Artel versus what’s required across the next 15 games.
Actually though the more I dwell on it the more it’s triggered me, over 6,000+ Town supporters “dug in” yesterday and have been digging in good numbers despite a cost of living crisis all this season & amazingly have been all the way through the Artell debacle.
Yesterday the fans went above and beyond , the atmosphere was good (best in recent memory I thought) even at 2-0 we stuck behind the team , can't ask for much more than that after all the recent roastings . It was only after the 4th that things switched to negative/toxic . The only 'digging in' should be out of Stockwood & Pettits pockets to pay off Artell as I can't see how he turns it around at all - bad players who he's obviously lost with his 'methods' and I think he's already managed to lose the fans ; it would take winning 5 or 6 on the spin to get us back onside , we have only won 6 all season so that seems highly unlikely.
Just as a minor comment, I have never seen such comprehensive agreement on anything to do with town. I was totally behind Artell, personally, and wanted so badly for him to succeed, but it ain’t happening. In fact, what IS happening is cataclysmic. Yesterday changed my perspective - this cannot go on.
What an awful, awful situation we’ve had put upon us. Sometimes I wonder what we’ve done wrong in a past life (and I’m not a believer in any of that cack).
I just hope we stay up, but I can’t see it.
Agreed, it’s remarkable the extent to which some of the more ‘Artell in’ posters have turned over the last couple of weeks and understandably so after the recent horrors.
There’s no going back now, he’s lost the fans. It’s very much a case of when, not if he leaves this season.
I don't know if I am reading that correctly but is he saying they accept responsibility for having negative comments said against them but not accepting they are responsible for us being 3rd from bottom of the EFL and looking at the National League again?
You really need to read a statement properly. This is what he said, "No one is happy about where we are at after the effort of the last 3 years. As owners we accept responsibility, and your right to negative comments!"
That says as plain as day that they accept responsibility. Don't try to twist his words to suit your narrative.
You really need to read a statement properly. This is what he said, "No one is happy about where we are at after the effort of the last 3 years. As owners we accept responsibility, and your right to negative comments!"
That says as plain as day that they accept responsibility. Don't try to twist his words to suit your narrative.
But what does accepting responsibility mean?
"Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style
Fairly obvious I would think. They accept responsibility for the position we are in now! That's how it looks to me.
Yeah but in reality what does that mean? Is it obvious? Generally when you accept responsibility you actually do something. Just saying that isn’t a get out of jail free card I think.
Seems very ambiguous.
"Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style
I can’t believe he’s still in a job . Should’ve been sacked straight after the game and escorted out of town by police. The second half was the most appalling half I’ve ever seen from town on so many levels from the players and mismanagement. I still can’t understand the substitutions and how easy they made the game for Donny. Absolutely incompetent. I can only pray that he’s getting the sack after a meeting with the owners tomorrow.
The tweet says absolutely nothing but presents the opportunity to have the little dig at the fans which now appears to be habitual behaviour.
For me its a Gerald Ratner moment. A dig at us supporters who give as much as we do is completely unacceptable and I for one wont be renewing my ST or spending any more money at the club.
For me its a Gerald Ratner moment. A dig at us supporters who give as much as we do is completely unacceptable and I for one wont be renewing my ST or spending any more money at the club.
He's been chipping away for a while it seems his fragile ego doesn't like criticism and sadly the current league position means it will only get stronger. He has certainly annoyed a few
He's been chipping away for a while it seems his fragile ego doesn't like criticism and sadly the current league position means it will only get stronger. He has certainly annoyed a few
He’s happy to make a fortune out of t’internet, happy to advertise his Guardian articles and his philanthropy on Twitter but doesn’t like stuff that comes back the other way.
He’s happy to make a fortune out of t’internet, happy to advertise his Guardian articles and his philanthropy on Twitter but doesn’t like stuff that comes back the other way.
That’s hardly something to throw back in his face though is it? What a silly twàt he is making millions of pounds through that fad the internet, it’ll never take off.
I'm not fussed what JS says or does outside of the football club that's his business. However anything Town related I'm entitled to my opinion same as he is.
What have I fiddled? Have I stolen anything, have I hurt anyone?
That’s what Al Capone said, before they locked him up and threw away the key. I pray that you won’t suffer the same fate. But with such blatant criminality I don’t hold out much hope…
I love it when I get up in the morning and read the Fishy for the football news. At present all I learn about is how shite the manager is, how shite the owners are, how shite the players are, how shite the bloke is selling dodgy firesticks,how shite B+WB is and how shite everybody who disagrees with him is. I might not renew my S.T. next season but I will definitely keep on the Fishy.
That’s hardly something to throw back in his face though is it? What a silly twàt he is making millions of pounds through that fad the internet, it’ll never take off.
The internet's gonna be massive, I keep telling you.
Whatever anyone thinks of the owners .If they walked away ,who would buy us
I'm not sure they've done that much wrong to be fair , they backed Hurst and he went and bought a load of dross and they recruited a manager with a proven record and he's not produced. I just think we as a club are cursed now , there are no better fans in this league and we just seem to be stuck in an ever lasting cycle of misery
Yeah but in reality what does that mean? Is it obvious? Generally when you accept responsibility you actually do something. Just saying that isn’t a get out of jail free card I think.
Seems very ambiguous.
I think it's fairly clear. They accept responsibility for the excrement we are in. They are doing something, at the minute they are sticking with him, it's just not the thing you and most of us want them to do. I'd have liked them to let Hurst have the window, but they make the decisions, for which they're accepting responsibility. I want them to sack him, but ultimately it's their choice. I see it as a momentary vote of confidence, you don't make a statement like that if you're not considering a sacking. Lose Saturday and I think he will be gone, they will be preparing for having to sack him.
In fairness to the owners, this is a very difficult position. Do you let Artell have another away game? As he believes the problem is the home form or do you pull the trigger? I completely get why they would procrastinate. The stakes are very high as it will be very difficult to shift season tickets for a third stint in the national league. The support base is very tired and me and my mates would be extremely unlikely to commit to season tickets to watch Borehamwood and Dorking. Therefore, the owners would stand to lose a lot of money if our sentiments are reflected across the fan base which I fear they are. A third dip into the National League proves that we are not able to sustain a football league team killing the point of promotion back to the EFL. Very tough position but clubs have been in this position before and clawed back. Our issue is that morale is unbelievably low after what for me has been the worst run of home form I have seen. My mates in different parts of the country no longer take the Mickey, we are beyond being a laughing stock! Utm
In fairness to the owners, this is a very difficult position. Do you let Artell have another away game? As he believes the problem is the home form or do you pull the trigger? I completely get why they would procrastinate. The stakes are very high as it will be very difficult to shift season tickets for a third stint in the national league. The support base is very tired and me and my mates would be extremely unlikely to commit to season tickets to watch Borehamwood and Dorking. Therefore, the owners would stand to lose a lot of money if our sentiments are reflected across the fan base which I fear they are. A third dip into the National League proves that we are not able to sustain a football league team killing the point of promotion back to the EFL. Very tough position but clubs have been in this position before and clawed back. Our issue is that morale is unbelievably low after what for me has been the worst run of home form I have seen. My mates in different parts of the country no longer take the Mickey, we are beyond being a laughing stock! Utm
I think everyone has a different mindset. There are some who are already stopping going, some who are against renewing STs if we go back down and many who won't renew anyway because they're fed up with the excrement being served up on a much too regular basis.
No one expected this season to pan out like this. I imagine the owners especially.
Even if some folk have turned it in already, we’re not going short of support. Home or away. BP was full on Saturday. Shame then (and I pick that word deliberately) that they are, time and again, having to spend their Saturday afternoon and substantial sums of money on being humiliated,, ripped off, let down and infuriated. The great tragedy of this current predicament is the appalling waste of that collective energy and resource and the way that everyone associated with Grimsby Town - loyal and patient and bursting to cheer and applaud (or at least, to share in some sort of collective pride, win lose or draw)…..is being smashed in the face with incompetence and general sh1ness. Repeatedly. And no decisive action taken.
Although I don’t agree with it, I can understand why he’s being given until the Morecambe game. And I hope we win. But I don’t believe it.
Occurred to me yesterday that we’re dealing with a bloke who likely has a family and kids or nephews/nieces who look up to him. It’s a sh1t business and I hate it when it collapses like this.
Occurred to me yesterday that we’re dealing with a bloke who likely has a family and kids or nephews/nieces who look up to him. It’s a sh1t business and I hate it when it collapses like this.
It's hardly a disgrace for a football manager to get the sack. It's the norm and it's a big payday for the individual. He'll no doubt construct some narrative to say what happened and tell it all to his friends and family freeing him of most of the blame.
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
From a human point of view, ending it now would be best for everyone, and I include him in that. I haven’t taken to him and it’s not working at all, and can’t, from what I know, but I don’t want him to get loads of verbal abuse. That’s really not right. He’s a person with feelings and a family. If it gets worse, and we will lose to Morecambe, then the toxicity engulfs even more people and more intensively. As I said in another thread; the owners can’t want that to exist in their organisation. Failure, fury and abuse. It’s really ugly.
Although I don’t agree with it, I can understand why he’s being given until the Morecambe game. And I hope we win. But I don’t believe it.
Occurred to me yesterday that we’re dealing with a bloke who likely has a family and kids or nephews/nieces who look up to him. It’s a sh1t business and I hate it when it collapses like this.
Genuine question, what logic do you see in giving Artell the Morecambe game? I have to say, I’m struggling to find any argument whatsoever, personally.
It's hardly a disgrace for a football manager to get the sack. It's the norm and it's a big payday for the individual. He'll no doubt construct some narrative to say what happened and tell it all to his friends and family freeing him of most of the blame.
It’s not so much the sack I’m referring to, more the abuse side of things - he was getting it direct as I walked out after the fourth goal. I’m sure he’s far more thick skinned than I am.
Although I don’t agree with it, I can understand why he’s being given until the Morecambe game. And I hope we win. But I don’t believe it.
Occurred to me yesterday that we’re dealing with a bloke who likely has a family and kids or nephews/nieces who look up to him. It’s a sh1t business and I hate it when it collapses like this.
It’s only on the same level as him telling various players that they’re free to leave.
Genuine question, what logic do you see in giving Artell the Morecambe game? I have to say, I’m struggling to find any argument whatsoever, personally.
Me neither. Whatever happens at Morecambe, BP will be a powder keg waiting to go if we lose to Forrest Gump.
Genuine question, what logic do you see in giving Artell the Morecambe game? I have to say, I’m struggling to find any argument whatsoever, personally.
With the caveat that I don’t agree with it, the owners have been under severe pressure before to get rid and as it turns out, rightly stuck with the manager. I’m sure this’ll be at the back of their minds. Also, he may well have convinced them of the away form argument and that he is at least worth one more swing at that, before they finally pull the plug. It also gives them time/breathing space to form a contingency plan and sound others out.
Genuine question, what logic do you see in giving Artell the Morecambe game? I have to say, I’m struggling to find any argument whatsoever, personally.
If they sacked him straight after the final whistle on Saturday, they perhaps feared what fans may do to him on the way out. If that is the case, then why didn't they do it yesterday?
That he's allowed more time on the training ground with these players seems very negligent. He's had a chance to tighten us up, and failed, so the longer he stays, criticism towards the board will increase. They can prevent that by doing the right thing and admitting they got it wrong.
Genuine question, what logic do you see in giving Artell the Morecambe game? I have to say, I’m struggling to find any argument whatsoever, personally.
The only one I could find is that it gives them time to be able to organise a backfill, though looking at how they generally behave I'd be surprised if they ended up talking to anyone else whilst Artell was still in place, I know some prospective managers also don't like that approach too.
I've said this on a few threads on here and Twitter, I don't think I've ever seen a Town side so far away from being able to win a game of football than this one.
If we stick with Artell we're going down.
"Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style
With the caveat that I don’t agree with it, the owners have been under severe pressure before to get rid and as it turns out, rightly stuck with the manager. I’m sure this’ll be at the back of their minds. Also, he may well have convinced them of the away form argument and that he is at least worth one more swing at that, before they finally pull the plug. It also gives them time/breathing space to form a contingency plan and sound others out.
The logic they shared for keeping Hurst during that sticky patch during the 21/22 season was pretty sound. We were, by and large, not playing terribly and had been hit by late sucker punches in games at home to Notts County and Chesterfield. If we were losing, it was by a single goal more often than not.
I don’t see those redeeming features currently. We’re conceding goals quite literally at an historically unprecedented rate, we’ve picked up 2 points from 6 matches this year, the players look absolutely lost and we’ve got some huge games on the horizon.
I have zero confidence of a positive result at Morecambe, and by “positive” I’m defining that as anything that involves us conceding fewer than 3 goals at this stage. Just look at the form guide. We are firmly bottom, having conceded 8 more goals than the next leakiest defence over the course of the last 6 games. Morecambe are second, with 13 points. That’s more points in 6 games than we have taken in Artell’s 12 matches in charge.
All I can see is yet another absolute shoeing, possibly the biggest yet. Artell’s notion that we’re ok away from home is a complete fallacy. We’ve simply only played one away game since it all went to shít. All we’re doing up is chalking up yet another confidence shattering defeat, ahead of our biggest game since the play-off final. It’s madness persisting with this. Madness.
It’s not so much the sack I’m referring to, more the abuse side of things - he was getting it direct as I walked out after the fourth goal. I’m sure he’s far more thick skinned than I am.
It's not an easy job at Grimsby. Rob Scott and Jolley both snapped and left, PH was very frustrated by the crowd. Quite a few managers have left here and never got another job! I think DA is the wrong personality for the job in any case.
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
The logic they shared for keeping Hurst during that sticky patch during the 21/22 season was pretty sound. We were, by and large, not playing terribly and had been hit by late sucker punches in games at home to Notts County and Chesterfield. If we were losing, it was by a single goal more often than not.
I don’t see those redeeming features currently. We’re conceding goals quite literally at an historically unprecedented rate, we’ve picked up 2 points from 6 matches this year, the players look absolutely lost and we’ve got some huge games on the horizon.
I have zero confidence of a positive result at Morecambe, and by “positive” I’m defining that as anything that involves us conceding fewer than 3 goals at this stage. Just look at the form guide. We are firmly bottom, having conceded 8 more goals than the next leakiest defence over the course of the last 6 games. Morecambe are second, with 13 points. That’s more points in 6 games than we have taken in Artell’s 12 matches in charge.
All I can see is yet another absolute shoeing, possibly the biggest yet. Artell’s notion that we’re ok away from home is a complete fallacy. We’ve simply only played one away game since it all went to shít. All we’re doing up is chalking up yet another confidence shattering defeat, ahead of our biggest game since the play-off final. It’s madness persisting with this. Madness.
A friend of mine goes to all Donny's home and away games. Morecambe won 5 0 at their place. He said the worst thing is that Morecambe only really came for a point but thought they'd take advantage of the gifts presented.
The logic they shared for keeping Hurst during that sticky patch during the 21/22 season was pretty sound. We were, by and large, not playing terribly and had been hit by late sucker punches in games at home to Notts County and Chesterfield. If we were losing, it was by a single goal more often than not.
I don’t see those redeeming features currently. We’re conceding goals quite literally at an historically unprecedented rate, we’ve picked up 2 points from 6 matches this year, the players look absolutely lost and we’ve got some huge games on the horizon.
I have zero confidence of a positive result at Morecambe, and by “positive” I’m defining that as anything that involves us conceding fewer than 3 goals at this stage. Just look at the form guide. We are firmly bottom, having conceded 8 more goals than the next leakiest defence over the course of the last 6 games. Morecambe are second, with 13 points. That’s more points in 6 games than we have taken in Artell’s 12 matches in charge.
All I can see is yet another absolute shoeing, possibly the biggest yet. Artell’s notion that we’re ok away from home is a complete fallacy. We’ve simply only played one away game since it all went to shít. All we’re doing up is chalking up yet another confidence shattering defeat, ahead of our biggest game since the play-off final. It’s madness persisting with this. Madness.
There’s not a lot I don’t agree with there, if anything. Just trying to see it through their eyes. The season has been a disaster. Get this wrong and the new TV deal money will likely see us down there for a long long time. And missing out on an improved TV deal would be such a Town thing to do. And ironic given the ITV digital fiasco is one of the many reasons we’re down here.
A friend of mine goes to all Donny's home and away games. Morecambe won 5 0 at their place. He said the worst thing is that Morecambe only really came for a point but thought they'd take advantage of the gifts presented.
It’s a tight race for that final play-off spot, with 2 points separating 7th and 14th. Morecambe could certainly benefit from some enhancement of their GD column. We’re the footballing equivalent of an all you can eat buffet - why stop after one plateful if you’ve got room for more?
Genuine question, what logic do you see in giving Artell the Morecambe game? I have to say, I’m struggling to find any argument whatsoever, personally.
Chicken feed compared to the cost of relegation. That's 800 - 1000 season tickets without the TV money etc. I personally think they would lose north of 2000 STs.
Chicken feed compared to the cost of relegation. That's 800 - 1000 season tickets without the TV money etc. I personally think they would lose north of 2000 STs.
This view that the owners can’t/don’t want to pay off Artell so will stick it out with him whatever is a complete red herring in my view. There’s no evidence for that and it makes no economic sense. It’s a completely ‘plucked out of the air’ figure anyway.
This is something I really struggle to wrap my head around. To the best of my knowledge, there is no mandatory template set out by the LMA or FA which dictates that there must be X amount of compensation in the event that the club wishes to terminate the contract early.
I appreciate that the manager has his own interests, but Artell was already out of work and there are far more unemployed managers than there are available positions at any given time. Surely the power is in the hands of the club.
I know that the kind of fixed-term contracts commonplace in football are different to most “real world” employment contracts, but surely clubs have the power to protect themselves against gross underperformance?
I say this admittedly not as a student of contract law or as someone totally au fait with the minutiae of the world of football, but if the club has left itself in a position where it is seriously cost prohibitive to remove the manager from his post in the context of the circus on the pitch, then it seems naive to say the least.
Happy to be corrected by anyone who knows more about the subject matter than I do, however.
This view that the owners can’t/don’t want to pay off Artell so will stick it out with him whatever is a complete red herring in my view. There’s no evidence for that and it makes no economic sense. It’s a completely ‘plucked out of the air’ figure anyway.
There are ways around it, and whatever the severance is shouldn't have to be paid in one lump sum. If money is that tight, stick him on gardening leave.
This is something I really struggle to wrap my head around. To the best of my knowledge, there is no mandatory template set out by the LMA or FA which dictates that there must be X amount of compensation in the event that the club wishes to terminate the contract early.
I appreciate that the manager has his own interests, but Artell was already out of work and there are far more unemployed managers than there are available positions at any given time. Surely the power is in the hands of the club.
I know that the kind of fixed-term contracts commonplace in football are different to most “real world” employment contracts, but surely clubs have the power to protect themselves against gross underperformance?
I say this admittedly not as a student of contract law or as someone totally au fait with the minutiae of the world of football, but if the club has left itself in a position where it is seriously cost prohibitive to remove the manager from his post in the context of the circus on the pitch, then it seems naive to say the least.
Happy to be corrected by anyone who knows more about the subject matter than I do, however.
And how do you measure a managers gross underperformance he is not out on the pitch decking a referee and getting sent off. Even if you could you then go into a lengthy disciplinary procedure with written warnings chances to improve etc. maybe he has had his first written warning on Saturday after bringing on the Coventry kid ahead of Wilson and Pyke. Just not realistic
If the reason for sticking with Artell is primarily financial, then it makes Stockwood’s comments about not needing investment and how easy it is to raise cash - which sounded ludicrous at the time - appear even more suicidal.
I think there’s definitely been an element of naivety on the part of the owners and I think people including Hurst have taken advantage of them and their good will. Like handing out a six month contract to Scannell when he couldn’t walk - píssing money down the drain, even if he was a good laugh around Cheapside.
I want to know where the data experts at the 21st Group sit in all this? Supposedly hired in an advisory capacity to two owners who openly admit to not being football experts, I hope they haven’t got any money heading their way.
And how do you measure a managers gross underperformance he is not out on the pitch decking a referee and getting sent off. Even if you could you then go into a lengthy disciplinary procedure with written warnings chances to improve etc. maybe he has had his first written warning on Saturday after bringing on the Coventry kid ahead of Wilson and Pyke. Just not realistic
Very simply, you define a minimum acceptable number of points on a sliding scale after so many games. You don’t have to set the bar so high that the manager feels inclined not to take the job, but we were tracking at ~1 point per game when Artell arrived, and maintaining that would have been sufficient to avoid relegation armageddon. If he wasn’t confident that he could average a point per game at the outset, he shouldn’t have been getting the job.
I would have thought misconduct clauses would be a part of any contract, manager, coaching staff or player, but assuming Artell hasn’t chinned the tea lady just yet, that’s not a lever we can pull at this moment in time.
Very simply, you define a minimum acceptable number of points on a sliding scale after so many games. You don’t have to set the bar so high that the manager feels inclined not to take the job, but we were tracking at ~1 point per game when Artell arrived, and maintaining that would have been sufficient to avoid relegation armageddon. If he wasn’t confident that he could average a point per game at the outset, he shouldn’t have been getting the job.
I would have thought misconduct clauses would be a part of any contract, manager, coaching staff or player, but assuming Artell hasn’t chinned the tea lady just yet, that’s not a lever we can pull at this moment in time.
Sorry but you are in cloud cuckoo land on this one
Sorry but you are in cloud cuckoo land on this one
I may well be - I’ve been very clear that I don’t know the ins and outs of football contract law. I just don’t understand why clubs are not able to protect themselves against serious underperformance by the person in arguably the most important position at the club.
Why is it impossible to have some kind of “managerial SLA”?
If the reason for sticking with Artell is primarily financial, then it makes Stockwood’s comments about not needing investment and how easy it is to raise cash - which sounded ludicrous at the time - appear even more suicidal.
I think there’s definitely been an element of naivety on the part of the owners and I think people including Hurst have taken advantage of them and their good will. Like handing out a six month contract to Scannell when he couldn’t walk - píssing money down the drain, even if he was a good laugh around Cheapside.
I want to know where the data experts at the 21st Group sit in all this? Supposedly hired in an advisory capacity to two owners who openly admit to not being football experts, I hope they haven’t got any money heading their way.
I remember Stockwood saying their advice doesn't come cheap. They certainly won't be doing owt for no payment.
As ever it is with the benefit of hindsight but we seem to have spent a fortune on things that don't directly improve our fortunes actually on the pitch. You can have all the consultants you like, all the fancy job titles and analysts but to succeed you need a good a manager that is affordable and ditto players.
They even reduced Artells workload as a "manager" and his primary role is to coach the players!
They have tried to be too clever too soon instead of getting us competitive in this division. A lot of the guff could come later but Stockwood particularly looks wedded to process and procedure and doesn't seem to understand football isn't an industry where being extra nice with the current social niceties works. It is important to look after employees (the players) in accordance with the law but what are we trying to achieve with Artell thinking he is a social worker? He mentions his responsibilities to players more than the coaching - we are supposed to be trying to win football matches. Plenty of managers are nice people but their primary role is results on the field.
I know it's been done to death but B Corp? Really? More money, whatever the amount wasted on a vanity project that must be so good no other club in the country even knows what it means.
I may well be - I’ve been very clear that I don’t know the ins and outs of football contract law. I just don’t understand why clubs are not able to protect themselves against serious underperformance by the person in arguably the most important position at the club.
Why is it impossible to have some kind of “managerial SLA”?
If Artell was performing like this in the corporate world, he would be dismissed at no cost. The fact we would have to pay Artell any compensation for 13 games of rapidly progressive destruction seems unfair.
I suspect that we can terminate his contract without compensation if he takes us down. The fans aren't willing to take that risk though.
I remember Stockwood saying their advice doesn't come cheap. They certainly won't be doing owt for no payment.
As ever it is with the benefit of hindsight but we seem to have spent a fortune on things that don't directly improve our fortunes actually on the pitch. You can have all the consultants you like, all the fancy job titles and analysts but to succeed you need a good a manager that is affordable and ditto players.
They even reduced Artells workload as a "manager" and his primary role is to coach the players!
They have tried to be too clever too soon instead of getting us competitive in this division. A lot of the guff could come later but Stockwood particularly looks wedded to process and procedure and doesn't seem to understand football isn't an industry where being extra nice with the current social niceties works. It is important to look after employees (the players) in accordance with the law but what are we trying to achieve with Artell thinking he is a social worker? He mentions his responsibilities to players more than the coaching - we are supposed to be trying to win football matches. Plenty of managers are nice people but their primary role is results on the field.
I know it's been done to death but B Corp? Really? More money, whatever the amount wasted on a vanity project that must be so good no other club in the country even knows what it means.
I said something similar at the time they arrived
They both may have done very well in a commercial environment but running a football club is nothing like most businesses. At our level you are very unlikely to make much in profits if any at all. You have a very limited customer base and if you urine most of that base off you are in trouble.
You can have all the backroom staff and advisors you want and get involved in all sorts of non football issues but it's what happens on the pitch that matters.
It's time for them to make a decision that they will have to standby at this late stage of the season. Stay up and they may be forgiven for what is turning out to be a crap season, we go down and they will be blamed for years to come and lose all the goodwill that has come their way since they took over the club.
I may well be - I’ve been very clear that I don’t know the ins and outs of football contract law. I just don’t understand why clubs are not able to protect themselves against serious underperformance by the person in arguably the most important position at the club.
Why is it impossible to have some kind of “managerial SLA”?
I think the only protection would be making provision in the budget/accounts each year just in case they have to sack the manager.
"Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style
I would like to see the notes kept when they interviewed for PH replacement, who else was in the running and why DA was thought to be the best candidate. I mean there were other sacked managers out there to choose from, still "fresh". Why pick one that's "stale" and has been out of football management for 18 months and yet had to hit the ground running as the good trawler GTFC was listing.? Won't happen of course, but still a good question.
I would like to see the notes kept when they interviewed for PH replacement, who else was in the running and why DA was thought to be the best candidate. I mean there were other sacked managers out there to choose from, still "fresh". Why pick one that's "stale" and has been out of football management for 18 months and yet had to hit the ground running as the good trawler GTFC was listing.? Won't happen of course, but still a good question.
Being as process driven as 1878 are I think it’s a very fair question for the next Forum, assuming DA has gone by then.
This is something I really struggle to wrap my head around. To the best of my knowledge, there is no mandatory template set out by the LMA or FA which dictates that there must be X amount of compensation in the event that the club wishes to terminate the contract early.
I appreciate that the manager has his own interests, but Artell was already out of work and there are far more unemployed managers than there are available positions at any given time. Surely the power is in the hands of the club.
I know that the kind of fixed-term contracts commonplace in football are different to most “real world” employment contracts, but surely clubs have the power to protect themselves against gross underperformance?
I say this admittedly not as a student of contract law or as someone totally au fait with the minutiae of the world of football, but if the club has left itself in a position where it is seriously cost prohibitive to remove the manager from his post in the context of the circus on the pitch, then it seems naive to say the least.
Happy to be corrected by anyone who knows more about the subject matter than I do, however.
The idea when trying to attract a new manager is to make the club as attractive as possible. Putting the sort of clauses in the contract that have been mentioned on here would make most perspective managers think twice before accepting a contact at a club that has been struggling for over a decade. I don't think many managers would sign such a contract given situations in a football club can develop that are largely out of their control.
I'm not sure if it would be the case with Artell but if he were to be fired. There have been occasions with other managers at other clubs where the agreement is they will continue to be paid their weekly wage/monthly salary until the end of the contract or their next appointment, whichever comes sooner.
The idea when trying to attract a new manager is to make the club as attractive as possible. Putting the sort of clauses in the contract that have been mentioned on here would make most perspective managers think twice before accepting a contact at a club that has been struggling for over a decade. I don't think many managers would sign such a contract given situations in a football club can develop that are largely out of their control.
I'm not sure if it would be the case with Artell but if he were to be fired. There have been occasions with other managers at other clubs where the agreement is they will continue to be paid their weekly wage/monthly salary until the end of the contract or their next appointment, whichever comes sooner.
Well in this case that would mean till the end of the contract wouldn't it?!
The owners have been done up like a kipper if that's the case but I can't believe there aren't clauses to mitigate against such a scenario.
Surely there's no chance we have to pay any manager sacked the full remaining salary in this case best part of 2.5 years..I would expect any business to have protected against this outcome with maybe a 6 month payoff or similar..
If we haven't that would be crazy and I'm sure DA wasn't so much in demand that he would have been afforded that..
Contracts are an agreement between at least two parties. If one party breaks the terms of the contract they could be liable to 'breach of contract' which could end up costing even more.
Of course, if DA agrees to an early termination a fee could be negotiated between the interested parties, which could be much less.
Surely there's no chance we have to pay any manager sacked the full remaining salary in this case best part of 2.5 years..I would expect any business to have protected against this outcome with maybe a 6 month payoff or similar..
If we haven't that would be crazy and I'm sure DA wasn't so much in demand that he would have been afforded that..
Wouldn't suprise me if he had the better end of any termination .
A good used car salesman , with your vehicle breaking down as you drive it off the forecourt .
Sells the dream
It wouldn't even suprise me if the rumour of a bust up with Thompson is true , imagine the scenario .
Sign a well thought of midfield player who's had a good career higher up , even a promotion to the Championship with Wycombe .
Artell 'I am going to change how you play , you are my new Xavi '
*Thompson looks gone out , after playing his whole career as a tenacious box to box player *
You might be able to coach young kids at Crewe and develop them , but attempting to do the same with senior pros over 30 isn't going to happen .
I normally don't get too annoyed about Town or managers , but he's managed it and seemingly more as the days go on .
Astounded the removal didn't happen , it's actually beyond words as I think it's too far gone and the damage is done .
Well in this case that would mean till the end of the contract wouldn't it?!
The owners have been done up like a kipper if that's the case but I can't believe there aren't clauses to mitigate against such a scenario.
Nobody has been 'done up like a kipper' here. Things just don't seem to have worked out here (at least, yet) and that happens in football all the time. The owners want to play certain brand of football and DA had achieved promotion from this division in the recent past so on paper seemed a good fit. I don't remember too many fans at the time calling it a bad appointment.
Looking at the stats from some of our recent games suggest we haven't been as bad as some have made out (Donny scored 5 goals with 4 shots on target on Saturday) but it is a results driven business and results have been shocking, there is no way of getting away from that. But it shows the fine lines in football and no appointment, especially at this level, is ever guaranteed.
Nobody has been 'done up like a kipper' here. Things just don't seem to have worked out here (at least, yet) and that happens in football all the time. The owners want to play certain brand of football and DA had achieved promotion from this division in the recent past so on paper seemed a good fit. I don't remember too many fans at the time calling it a bad appointment.
Looking at the stats from some of our recent games suggest we haven't been as bad as some have made out (Donny scored 5 goals with 4 shots on target on Saturday) but it is a results driven business and results have been shocking, there is no way of getting away from that. But it shows the fine lines in football and no appointment, especially at this level, is ever guaranteed.
There have been some truly shocking moments and results, but I can sense an unlikely good result at Morecambe and if we then follow up with wins in the 2 games against the bottom teams, the picture could change. We can't afford to ship lots more goals, as at the moment the 12 goal difference between them is worth a point; and we have 1 and 2 game advantages.
I am as urined off as anybody; but I can't see a managerial change coming up.
I certainly agree that we've deserved to lose the games, but I think the recent scorelines have been a bit more startling than they might normally have been, especially as League Two footballers don't tend to be quite this clinical with their finishing. Absolutely no mucking around from Donny at the weekend - every shot tucked away nicely with only one of them that our keeper might have done anything about.
The Walsall game started it all off. I left the ground thinking we hadn't been all that bad (and we were decent for much of the first half), yet we'd got absolutely battered on the scoreboard. A game where they scored with almost every shot on target, one of many.
I think it is only partially down to the fact that we've played poorly at times. It has coincided with a spell where the opposition are slotting away almost every chance they create (or are given by our crap midfield and defence).
Not claiming the team is due any leeway here, however. You can't concede 4 goals a game and expect to get anything.
By any reasonable assessment, the manager has delivered a series of very poor results. Poor performers in most companies get the sack (he can’t be moved sideways). We would not know if warnings had been issued about the consequences of not improving.
Nobody has been 'done up like a kipper' here. Things just don't seem to have worked out here (at least, yet) and that happens in football all the time. The owners want to play certain brand of football and DA had achieved promotion from this division in the recent past so on paper seemed a good fit. I don't remember too many fans at the time calling it a bad appointment.
Looking at the stats from some of our recent games suggest we haven't been as bad as some have made out (Donny scored 5 goals with 4 shots on target on Saturday) but it is a results driven business and results have been shocking, there is no way of getting away from that. But it shows the fine lines in football and no appointment, especially at this level, is ever guaranteed.
I meant purely about the contract if they haven't mitigated having to pay his salary if he sacked within say 6months. I'm sure they been astute enough though.
On the playing side we will just have to see how it pans out.
We’ve conceded 19 in 4 home games. Even with managers who’ve struggled before, there was (not always) always the slight hope we could get back on track. Our performances are getting worse and worse and we’re consistently getting battered at home. After getting that goal back against Doncaster and going into half time on top, a good manager would have had the players flying out the blocks in that second half. Instead they looked like they’d rather be anywhere else than on the pitch.
It’s blatantly obvious that he’s lost the players, as well as the fans. I just don’t see how he can turn this around at this point. He has to go to give us any chance of staying up. We can’t rely on Sutton and FGR being worse than us.
Not only would dropping out the league again be disastrous financially, I think we’d struggle to sell 3000 season tickets. The last time we went down, we had the new owners bounce and we were allowed back to games after Covid. There would be none of that optimism this time.
These are incredibly worrying times for the club. Sacking artell will be expensive, yes, but the alternative would be far more costly and damaging.
Surely there's no chance we have to pay any manager sacked the full remaining salary in this case best part of 2.5 years..I would expect any business to have protected against this outcome with maybe a 6 month payoff or similar..
If we haven't that would be crazy and I'm sure DA wasn't so much in demand that he would have been afforded that..
A contract is a contract, and it's legally binding. Unless DA "misbehaves" then sacking him means end of-contract payout. There could be caveats of course. I.e. GTFC could have written in that relegation breaks the contract, which doesn't help now. Now DA might get a lot of stick from the fans and leave by "mutual consent", which could be a money saver from GTFC's and face saver/clear the toxic atmosphere from DA's point of view.
JS's Tweets are not working, indeed they are probably counterproductive. His best bet is to have a chat with DA and just tell him to forget a long-term approach and win some points very very ugly if need be. Then get on the Mariners TV and placate the fans that yes we have wobbled, and he and the manager have come up with this master plan until the end of the season. Don't let on that a couple of buses will be parked in the goal mouth but just get some points. FGR and Sutton have up to now been very good to us, but FGR have probably smelt our fear, and it might just galvanise them. I mean if you were a FGR fan and looked at GTFC you would see hope wouldn't you.? And whilst we are at it, Cartwright is shot. He doesn't now want to leave the 6-yard box to pick up easy loose balls, never mind tougher calls, shipping all those goals has broken him, and not all his fault either, but there you are. It would be kindness to bench him. I just pray we get something out of the Morecambe match, and FGR and Sutton get stuffed. UTM
I certainly agree that we've deserved to lose the games, but I think the recent scorelines have been a bit more startling than they might normally have been, especially as League Two footballers don't tend to be quite this clinical with their finishing. Absolutely no mucking around from Donny at the weekend - every shot tucked away nicely with only one of them that our keeper might have done anything about.
The Walsall game started it all off. I left the ground thinking we hadn't been all that bad (and we were decent for much of the first half), yet we'd got absolutely battered on the scoreboard. A game where they scored with almost every shot on target, one of many.
I think it is only partially down to the fact that we've played poorly at times. It has coincided with a spell where the opposition are slotting away almost every chance they create (or are given by our crap midfield and defence).
Not claiming the team is due any leeway here, however. You can't concede 4 goals a game and expect to get anything.
I think the first two goals on Saturday are really indicative of the problem. It was apparent in real time, but looking back at the highlights in the build up to the first goal we have at least 6 opportunities to stop the Doncaster move, either by making an interception, a tackle, a block or by committing a simple foul. None were taken - it’s all powderpuff stuff. To determination, no grit, no aggression.
The second goal actually starts from our own attack. Clifton misplaces a simple 6-yard pass under no real pressure, Andrews makes a half-hearted attempt to regain possession (and fails), Green comfortably loses a 50/50 with their midfielder, Smith completely shíts out of a challenge with Adelakun and in fact fails to make any contact with the ball or the player whatsoever, no one puts a challenge on Adelakun until he’s already put the ball into the box and Molyneux beats Maher to the ball to stick the ball over Cartwright, who stays fixed to the ground when the shot was in possible saveable reach.
This is all within the first 7 minutes when tiredness cannot be an excuse. 12 or 13 individual battles in those two goals alone, and we lost each and every one of them, when winning just a single one would have been sufficient to prevent the goal.
It’s a combination of the defensive system the players are being asked to play and poor decision making by gutless players.
This is easily forgotten now, but Town were probably the better side for 30 minutes of the first 45, it was almost the Walsall first-half in reverse. We were in the game at half-time, but then we just make the same mistakes all over again, and then we simply capitulate.
It’s not rocket science. We have short spells in games where we look ok, because I do believe deep down there is a team in there - at least a team capable of avoiding relegation. But until we begin to defend like a professional football team and back that up with some testosterone, we are on a fúcking hiding to nothing.
Do I think Artell will solve any of that between now and Morecambe? No, I don’t.
We’ve conceded 19 in 4 home games. Even with managers who’ve struggled before, there was (not always) always the slight hope we could get back on track. Our performances are getting worse and worse and we’re consistently getting battered at home. After getting that goal back against Doncaster and going into half time on top, a good manager would have had the players flying out the blocks in that second half. Instead they looked like they’d rather be anywhere else than on the pitch.
It’s blatantly obvious that he’s lost the players, as well as the fans. I just don’t see how he can turn this around at this point. He has to go to give us any chance of staying up. We can’t rely on Sutton and FGR being worse than us.
Not only would dropping out the league again be disastrous financially, I think we’d struggle to sell 3000 season tickets. The last time we went down, we had the new owners bounce and we were allowed back to games after Covid. There would be none of that optimism this time.
These are incredibly worrying times for the club. Sacking artell will be expensive, yes, but the alternative would be far more costly and damaging.
Considering his disastrous recruitment at Crewe it would make me shudder giving him a full summer to replace 15-20 players even if we scrape staying up .
His position is untenable. It’s as simple as that . He has to go , it’s absolutely unbelievable he hasn’t been sacked already.
Can’t argue with any of that. I suppose there’s the possibility that there’s some red tape to sort out in order to do so, but I think Stockwood’s tweet yesterday suggests that’s unlikely.
His position is untenable. It’s as simple as that . He has to go , it’s absolutely unbelievable he hasn’t been sacked already.
I was thinking about this this morning. We lost 5-1 at home to our relegation and local rivals Doncaster. That in itself a major, major intercourse up that I don’t think he can come back from.
thats the point here isnt it, relegation rivals. And they weren't anything special
I cannot believe he's still here, I'm gobsmacked by it, I haven't come across a single fan on here, on twitter, on Facebook, who thinks he should still be in charge. I've never seen a more unanimous call.
That the owners are either that stubborn, or deluded to think he can turn this round, is stupidity, theres no way for him to salvage this, he has made us worse.
he may well keep us up, god i flipping hope he does, but he is not the right man for here.
If we leave him in charge till the FGR game, then the board need a hard look at themselves
Artell managed Crewe for 42 league games in the 21/22 season when they were relegated. He managed a further 8 cup games, winning 5 of them (4 of them were in the EFL Trophy).
42 league games at Crewe in 21/22: Won 6 Drawn 7 Lost 29 Goals For 32 (0.76 GF per game) Goals Against 78 (1.86 GA per game) PPG 0.60 Win Rate 14.29%
Looking at his 12 league games in charge of Town: Won 2 Drawn 4 Lost 6 Goals For 17 (1.42 GF per game) Goals Against 28 (2.33 GA per game) PPG 0.83 Win Rate: 16.67%
Artell's last 54 league games in charge: Won 8 Drawn 11 Lost 35 Goals For 49 (0.91 GF per game) Goals Against 106 (1.96 GA per game) PPG 0.65 Win Rate 14.81%
Over the last 54 league games he has managed, his style of play has produced a positive outcome 8 times. Over this period, his team's don't score a great deal. 8 of the 17 goals scored under him for Town were in 2 games. His team's don't score many, and they concede double what they score.
His system isn't working, and the more I look, the more obvious it becomes that he needs to go.
thats the point here isnt it, relegation rivals. And they weren't anything special
I cannot believe he's still here, I'm gobsmacked by it, I haven't come across a single fan on here, on twitter, on Facebook, who thinks he should still be in charge. I've never seen a more unanimous call.
That the owners are either that stubborn, or deluded to think he can turn this round, is stupidity, theres no way for him to salvage this, he has made us worse.
he may well keep us up, god i flipping hope he does, but he is not the right man for here.
If we leave him in charge till the FGR game, then the board need a hard look at themselves
I scrolled through the replies to Jason's tweet earlier. There was just one person who said they think Artell should stay, and that was Jazz Mariner who always comes across as being a bit cantankerous. The board needs to read the room urgently.
I scrolled through the replies to Jason's tweet earlier. There was just one person who said they think Artell should stay, and that was Jazz Mariner who always comes across as being a bit cantankerous. The board needs to read the room urgently.
Artell managed Crewe for 42 league games in the 21/22 season when they were relegated. He managed a further 8 cup games, winning 5 of them (4 of them were in the EFL Trophy).
42 league games at Crewe in 21/22: Won 6 Drawn 7 Lost 29 Goals For 32 (0.76 GF per game) Goals Against 78 (1.86 GA per game) PPG 0.60 Win Rate 14.29%
Looking at his 12 league games in charge of Town: Won 2 Drawn 4 Lost 6 Goals For 17 (1.42 GF per game) Goals Against 28 (2.33 GA per game) PPG 0.83 Win Rate: 16.67%
Artell's last 54 league games in charge: Won 8 Drawn 11 Lost 35 Goals For 49 (0.91 GF per game) Goals Against 106 (1.96 GA per game) PPG 0.65 Win Rate 14.81%
Over the last 54 league games he has managed, his style of play has produced a positive outcome 8 times. Over this period, his team's don't score a great deal. 8 of the 17 goals scored under him for Town were in 2 games. His team's don't score many, and they concede double what they score.
His system isn't working, and the more I look, the more obvious it becomes that he needs to go.
That’s some great analysis, and it’s absolutely terrifying. I’ve tried to reasonably polite up to this point but this just confirms what we thought we all knew; that what we’re seeing isn’t some unfortunate quirk but a reflection of the manager’s superhuman ineptitude.
Get him gone. Jason, send me the bill for his compo and I’ll pay it myself.
Artell managed Crewe for 42 league games in the 21/22 season when they were relegated. He managed a further 8 cup games, winning 5 of them (4 of them were in the EFL Trophy).
42 league games at Crewe in 21/22: Won 6 Drawn 7 Lost 29 Goals For 32 (0.76 GF per game) Goals Against 78 (1.86 GA per game) PPG 0.60 Win Rate 14.29%
Looking at his 12 league games in charge of Town: Won 2 Drawn 4 Lost 6 Goals For 17 (1.42 GF per game) Goals Against 28 (2.33 GA per game) PPG 0.83 Win Rate: 16.67%
Artell's last 54 league games in charge: Won 8 Drawn 11 Lost 35 Goals For 49 (0.91 GF per game) Goals Against 106 (1.96 GA per game) PPG 0.65 Win Rate 14.81%
Over the last 54 league games he has managed, his style of play has produced a positive outcome 8 times. Over this period, his team's don't score a great deal. 8 of the 17 goals scored under him for Town were in 2 games. His team's don't score many, and they concede double what they score.
His system isn't working, and the more I look, the more obvious it becomes that he needs to go.
DATA ALERT! DATA ALERT! Great work - perhaps 21st Group didn't do things this diligently.
Artell managed Crewe for 42 league games in the 21/22 season when they were relegated. He managed a further 8 cup games, winning 5 of them (4 of them were in the EFL Trophy).
42 league games at Crewe in 21/22: Won 6 Drawn 7 Lost 29 Goals For 32 (0.76 GF per game) Goals Against 78 (1.86 GA per game) PPG 0.60 Win Rate 14.29%
Looking at his 12 league games in charge of Town: Won 2 Drawn 4 Lost 6 Goals For 17 (1.42 GF per game) Goals Against 28 (2.33 GA per game) PPG 0.83 Win Rate: 16.67%
Artell's last 54 league games in charge: Won 8 Drawn 11 Lost 35 Goals For 49 (0.91 GF per game) Goals Against 106 (1.96 GA per game) PPG 0.65 Win Rate 14.81%
Over the last 54 league games he has managed, his style of play has produced a positive outcome 8 times. Over this period, his team's don't score a great deal. 8 of the 17 goals scored under him for Town were in 2 games. His team's don't score many, and they concede double what they score.
His system isn't working, and the more I look, the more obvious it becomes that he needs to go.
Bloody hell, were the owners aware of this appalling record or have the data analysts completely fooked up.
Either way he should go and go now and the owners should explain why they appointed him with this record or why they weren't aware.
Either way they have really dropped us in this pile of poo.
Artell managed Crewe for 42 league games in the 21/22 season when they were relegated. He managed a further 8 cup games, winning 5 of them (4 of them were in the EFL Trophy).
42 league games at Crewe in 21/22: Won 6 Drawn 7 Lost 29 Goals For 32 (0.76 GF per game) Goals Against 78 (1.86 GA per game) PPG 0.60 Win Rate 14.29%
Looking at his 12 league games in charge of Town: Won 2 Drawn 4 Lost 6 Goals For 17 (1.42 GF per game) Goals Against 28 (2.33 GA per game) PPG 0.83 Win Rate: 16.67%
Artell's last 54 league games in charge: Won 8 Drawn 11 Lost 35 Goals For 49 (0.91 GF per game) Goals Against 106 (1.96 GA per game) PPG 0.65 Win Rate 14.81%
Over the last 54 league games he has managed, his style of play has produced a positive outcome 8 times. Over this period, his team's don't score a great deal. 8 of the 17 goals scored under him for Town were in 2 games. His team's don't score many, and they concede double what they score.
His system isn't working, and the more I look, the more obvious it becomes that he needs to go.
That is quite startling. Over a 46 game season that would give a total of 29/30 points which is pathetic. We’ve got that already this season and we’re shite! I knew he’d done badly in his final season at Crewe but didn’t know it was quite to that extreme.
Which then begs the question, where the hell was the due diligence on this?! What possible answer could he have given them that would explain being quite that shite over such a sustained period?! This solidifies my belief that they appointed him on the strength of this “Grimsby way” notion. There’s no way your first choice manager would be one who hasn’t worked for 18 months and who’s most recent season was as bad as that surely?!
I’m genuinely astonished that they haven’t fired him yet. Everyone makes mistakes in recruitment at times and I think this naive belief that we’re going to play like we did in 1998 may have played a part in that decision. But despite teams seemingly just being clinical against us, my reading of that situation is that they don’t need to do any more than that because we gift teams so many easy chances each game. Even Doncaster barely had to get out of 2nd gear. We might have a period of 20 minutes or so where we keep the ball well and create some half chances but you know that we will present you with at least two or three gilt edged chances. Why go hell for leather when you can sit back and let us present the gift wrapped three points eventually? We’re literally the worst we’ve ever been which given the last 20 years is one hell of an achievement.
DATA ALERT! DATA ALERT! Great work - perhaps 21st Group didn't do things this diligently.
You see this is the thing with data - it can be interpreted any way you like. They would obviously have been aware of this data set but perhaps due to personal preference, the extra cost of a manager with a better record or they felt there was mitigating circumstances, they overlooked the bad data.
Whatever else they were looking for in a manager, shouldn't the ability to win games been at the top?
That is quite startling. Over a 46 game season that would give a total of 29/30 points which is pathetic. We’ve got that already this season and we’re shite! I knew he’d done badly in his final season at Crewe but didn’t know it was quite to that extreme.
Which then begs the question, where the hell was the due diligence on this?! What possible answer could he have given them that would explain being quite that shite over such a sustained period?! This solidifies my belief that they appointed him on the strength of this “Grimsby way” notion. There’s no way your first choice manager would be one who hasn’t worked for 18 months and who’s most recent season was as bad as that surely?!
I’m genuinely astonished that they haven’t fired him yet. Everyone makes mistakes in recruitment at times and I think this naive belief that we’re going to play like we did in 1998 may have played a part in that decision. But despite teams seemingly just being clinical against us, my reading of that situation is that they don’t need to do any more than that because we gift teams so many easy chances each game. Even Doncaster barely had to get out of 2nd gear. We might have a period of 20 minutes or so where we keep the ball well and create some half chances but you know that we will present you with at least two or three gilt edged chances. Why go hell for leather when you can sit back and let us present the gift wrapped three points eventually? We’re literally the worst we’ve ever been which given the last 20 years is one hell of an achievement.
If the ambition is to play more attractive football, then that’s great, but you can’t expect a squad that’s basically non league quality to be competitive straight away and then, rather than complain about finance, you have to invest in better players.
Put simply, ambition has massively outweighed ability.
Artell managed Crewe for 42 league games in the 21/22 season when they were relegated. He managed a further 8 cup games, winning 5 of them (4 of them were in the EFL Trophy).
42 league games at Crewe in 21/22: Won 6 Drawn 7 Lost 29 Goals For 32 (0.76 GF per game) Goals Against 78 (1.86 GA per game) PPG 0.60 Win Rate 14.29%
Looking at his 12 league games in charge of Town: Won 2 Drawn 4 Lost 6 Goals For 17 (1.42 GF per game) Goals Against 28 (2.33 GA per game) PPG 0.83 Win Rate: 16.67%
Artell's last 54 league games in charge: Won 8 Drawn 11 Lost 35 Goals For 49 (0.91 GF per game) Goals Against 106 (1.96 GA per game) PPG 0.65 Win Rate 14.81%
Over the last 54 league games he has managed, his style of play has produced a positive outcome 8 times. Over this period, his team's don't score a great deal. 8 of the 17 goals scored under him for Town were in 2 games. His team's don't score many, and they concede double what they score.
His system isn't working, and the more I look, the more obvious it becomes that he needs to go.
You are forgetting that in the 18 months between jobs he studied coaching methods at Sale Sharks and the Olympic Taekwondo team.
The players look like they don’t expect the opposition to pass forwards and that they have been given instructions on how to defend in Korean…
If the ambition is to play more attractive football, then that’s great, but you can’t expect a squad that’s basically non league quality to be competitive straight away and then, rather than complain about finance, you have to invest in better players.
Put simply, ambition has massively outweighed ability.
To be a fair it's what he has been asked to do. He was specifically targeted because of his tactical approach and his willingness to turn to youth. Despite just releasing a film on the previous manager's stint the board had decided it was not entertaining enough.
If someone offered you a job for decent money you'd agree to it even if you privately had your doubts? He'd been out of work for 18 months he's not going to turn it down. There are only about 20 EFL jobs he could conceivably do and one of them rang him up out of the blue. He had struck gold.
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
Artell managed Crewe for 42 league games in the 21/22 season when they were relegated. He managed a further 8 cup games, winning 5 of them (4 of them were in the EFL Trophy).
42 league games at Crewe in 21/22: Won 6 Drawn 7 Lost 29 Goals For 32 (0.76 GF per game) Goals Against 78 (1.86 GA per game) PPG 0.60 Win Rate 14.29%
Looking at his 12 league games in charge of Town: Won 2 Drawn 4 Lost 6 Goals For 17 (1.42 GF per game) Goals Against 28 (2.33 GA per game) PPG 0.83 Win Rate: 16.67%
Artell's last 54 league games in charge: Won 8 Drawn 11 Lost 35 Goals For 49 (0.91 GF per game) Goals Against 106 (1.96 GA per game) PPG 0.65 Win Rate 14.81%
Over the last 54 league games he has managed, his style of play has produced a positive outcome 8 times. Over this period, his team's don't score a great deal. 8 of the 17 goals scored under him for Town were in 2 games. His team's don't score many, and they concede double what they score.
His system isn't working, and the more I look, the more obvious it becomes that he needs to go.
This is a poor bit of analysis.
If you are going to analyse the guys record why limit it to the 21/22 season?
His full record is for Crewe is
Crewe Alexandra From : 8 January 2017 To: 11 April 2022 Played: 274 Won: 100 Drew: 51 Lost: 123 Win%: 36.5
That includes the 21/22 season, when Crewe experienced off the pitch difficulties and DA had to perform many roles at the club.
It also includes his promotion from League Two in 2019-20, when he recieved the League Two manager of the Year.
Also the 20/21 season where he finished 12th in League One.
I understand people want a change of manager but if you are going to analyse the guys career at least do it fairly.
Considering his disastrous recruitment at Crewe it would make me shudder giving him a full summer to replace 15-20 players even if we scrape staying up .
And that gets to the crux of it. Say he does miraculously turn this around to enough of an extent to keep us up, do we then trust him to sign 15 players in the summer?
We'll be right on him the moment it looks a bit dodgy. He's lost me, and I don't see a set of circumstances that lead him to winning me back?
I've wasted my life in black and white, a pathetic act for a worthless cause
If you are going to analyse the guys record why limit it to the 21/22 season?
His full record is for Crewe is
Crewe Alexandra From : 8 January 2017 To: 11 April 2022 Played: 274 Won: 100 Drew: 51 Lost: 123 Win%: 36.5
That includes the 21/22 season, when Crewe experienced off the pitch difficulties and DA had to perform many roles at the club.
It also includes his promotion from League Two in 2019-20, when he recieved the League Two manager of the Year.
Also the 20/21 season where he finished 12th in League One.
I understand people want a change of manager but if you are going to analyse the guys career at least do it fairly.
Selective maybe, but I don’t think it’s “poor” or irrelevant. What we’ve seen over a short sample of 12 games (albeit most profoundly in the last 6) is a catastrophic pattern of goals conceded and a failure to pick up points (just 2 from the last available 18’). This rather paints a picture that the side’s current failings aren’t just a freak blip but rather a reflection of the manager’s previous season in the game.
It points to Artell’s previous success being the anomaly, not our current form. That is deeply concerning.
I do hope JS & AP take into account that, apart from walk ins, they will lose somewhere near £1,000,000 in income if those 2,000 ST's mentioned above don't renew. Sacking Aretll may not mean some will not renew but L2 survival is a must.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
If you are going to analyse the guys record why limit it to the 21/22 season?
His full record is for Crewe is
Crewe Alexandra From : 8 January 2017 To: 11 April 2022 Played: 274 Won: 100 Drew: 51 Lost: 123 Win%: 36.5
That includes the 21/22 season, when Crewe experienced off the pitch difficulties and DA had to perform many roles at the club.
It also includes his promotion from League Two in 2019-20, when he recieved the League Two manager of the Year.
Also the 20/21 season where he finished 12th in League One.
I understand people want a change of manager but if you are going to analyse the guys career at least do it fairly.
We can all find his overall record at a glance, but I would argue that the more recent data is more relevant. His overall record before that looks alright. Crewe had an alright season in League One under him, but then capitulated in 21/22 and he seems incapable of addressing that.
Selective maybe, but I don’t think it’s “poor” or irrelevant. What we’ve seen over a short sample of 12 games (albeit most profoundly in the last 6) is a catastrophic pattern of goals conceded and a failure to pick up points (just 2 from the last available 18’). This rather paints a picture that the side’s current failings aren’t just a freak blip but rather a reflection of the manager’s previous season in the game.
It points to Artell’s previous success being the anomaly, not our current form. That is deeply concerning.
It is poor because it is selective. As you continue to be.
It is poor because it is selective. As you continue to be.
OK - let's be a little bit more selective. We've taken one point (and needed to score 5 to do so) from the last six home games, conceding 23 goals. Please give me any reasoning as to how that can be acceptable.
We can all find his overall record at a glance, but I would argue that the more recent data is more relevant. His overall record before that looks alright. Crewe had an alright season in League One under him, but then capitulated in 21/22 and he seems incapable of addressing that.
Surely his overall record is more relevant than his last season?
Why does he seem incapable? He was in a similar situation when he took over Crewe and they only achieved a 17th followed by a 15th finish in League two in his first two seasons before leading them to promotion. So he has a proven track record of addressing it.
Surely his overall record is more relevant than his last season?
Why does he seem incapable? He was in a similar situation when he took over Crewe and they only achieved a 17th followed by a 15th finish in League two in his first two seasons before leading them to promotion. So he has a proven track record of addressing it.
Well, in his first season here, we're staring at between 22nd and 24th in League Two.
I think you are being extremely naive, just about every football manager who has been sacked will have been sacked because of their recent record.
Even when the majority of the recent record that was used he wasn't even at this club? Some mangers have had very poor starts to their careers at clubs but turned it around. If rumours are to be believed even Alex Ferguson was one game away from being sacked (and no I am not comparing DA to AF)
Surely if you are going to analyse somebody's competence based on their statistics it is only fair to use their full career?
Surely his overall record is more relevant than his last season?
Why does he seem incapable? He was in a similar situation when he took over Crewe and they only achieved a 17th followed by a 15th finish in League two in his first two seasons before leading them to promotion. So he has a proven track record of addressing it.
You are being selective in ignoring his last season at Crewe when they got relegated and according to Wiki one of the worst season's in their recent history.
When I employed someone I would look at their CV and whilst reviewing it all would have a good look their latest employment and how they did with that.
Even when the majority of the recent record that was used, he wasn't even at this club? Some mangers have had very poor starts to their careers at clubs but turned it around. Even rumours are to be believed even Alex Ferguson was one game away from being sacked (and no I am not comparing DA to AF)
Surely if you are going to analyse somebody's competence based on their statistics it is only fair to use their full career?
Would any top club go for Jose Mourinho at the minute?
It is poor because it is selective. As you continue to be.
It’s a consecutive sequence of games totalling more than a season’s worth of games, running up to the current day. It’s not cherrypicking, it’s just a matter of recency.
A good chunk of Russell Slade’s earlier CV is quite impressive, but there’s a very stark decline in performance and results post-Cardiff City, and that’s the reason he no longer gets a sniff at EFL or even non-league gigs. After a certain amount of time, his earlier achievements become increasingly less relevant.
We’re talking about a shorter timeframe when we look at David Artell’s career, but to dismiss analyses which highlight a very distinctive pattern over his 50+ games at two clubs as “poor” purely because it discounts earlier data is too simplistic, imo. Managers lose effectiveness. Managers lose the plot. Powerpoint peddling, Matt Dean-blaming Russell Slade again a very good case in point.
OK - let's be a little bit more selective. We've taken one point (and needed to score 5 to do so) from the last six home games, conceding 23 goals. Please give me any reasoning as to how that can be acceptable.
During his steady ascent through league 2 culminating in eventual promotion and respectable mid table League 1 finish, David Artell was reaping the rewards of a once in a generation crop of young talent coming into maturity in the first team.
They were technically capable, mentally pliable, and receptive to both take on new coaching methods and critically to execute on them.
After the 12th place finish, that crop of talent went onto higher and better things as a reward for their endeavours, leaving Artell to
1. Rebuild a depleted squad with players of his own choosing and 2. Attempt to train said players in his methods when they may have lacked the attributes of those that they replaced.
It ended with historic low performances over the course of his final season with Crewe.
A reasonable hypothesis based around the empirical data available. Other interpretations are available, and seemingly provided by DA as he spun his successful narrative to an eagerly listening JS.
You are being selective in ignoring his last season at Crewe when they got relegated and according to Wiki one of the worst season's in their recent history.
When I employed someone I would look at their CV and whilst reviewing it all would have a good look their latest employment and how they did with that.
Artell should have resigned in May/June 2021. He was mentally and physically exhausted by the time he was sacked in April, 2022. As he put it "by the end I was out of puff".
Could you point to some non-selective data or facts that suggest Artell will turn round this disastrous run of form?
I thought I would have a look into some stats on FlashScore and see what is looking positive, considering we’re up excrement creek in my opinion. Including the Crewe game onwards we have had 151 shots at goal with 42 on target, 131 against at goal 52 on target. That includes Mansfields 34 and 15. It just seems madness that Walsall have 6 shots on target against us and score all 6, even more remarkable Doncaster have 4 shots on target and score 5. Think we just need to prey not to concede ridiculous goals.
Baldrick ! The only impression you can do is that of a man with no talent !! GTFC team 09/10 - Baldrick, Baldrick, Baldrick, Baldrick, Baldrick, Baldrick, Baldrick, Baldrick, Baldrick, Baldrick, Baldrick.
You are being selective in ignoring his last season at Crewe when they got relegated and according to Wiki one of the worst season's in their recent history.
When I employed someone I would look at their CV and whilst reviewing it all would have a good look their latest employment and how they did with that.
I wasn't ignoring his last season. Read what I said again.
I am sure JS did the same thing and saw how he built a club struggling at the foot of League Two to a team that finished 12th League One. I am also sure he would have asked him about his final season at Crewe and what were the reasons for such a poor season. So pretty similar to your process really.
Even when the majority of the recent record that was used he wasn't even at this club? Some mangers have had very poor starts to their careers at clubs but turned it around. If rumours are to be believed even Alex Ferguson was one game away from being sacked (and no I am not comparing DA to AF)
Surely if you are going to analyse somebody's competence based on their statistics it is only fair to use their full career?
I understand the argument you are making, but doesn't it make a mockery of it all? When he did well there were mitigating circumstances, when he did badly there were mitigating circumstances.
If we employed Pep his stats would take somewhat of a hammering.
If I had been choosing a manager, I would always choose an up-and-coming manager from the league below, who is (currently) used to winning and really wants to progress in the game, but really it is a lottery. Our owners decided the style of play was the most important thing so they will have to live or die by that.
I understand the argument you are making, but doesn't it make a mockery of it all? When he did well there were mitigating circumstances, when he did badly there were mitigating circumstances.
If we employed Pep his stats would take somewhat of a hammering.
If I had been choosing a manager, I would always choose an up-and-coming manager from the league below, who is (currently) used to winning and really wants to progress in the game, but really it is a lottery. Our owners decided the style of play was the most important thing so they will have to live or die by that.
Well this is my point really. Taking on any new manager is a risk.
I understand your point about an up and coming manager from the Leagues below. You could end up with an Alan Buckley or you may end up with a Marcus Bignot.
You are right, it really is a lottery. Which is why I feel some of the comments on here about attacking the owners for such a rubbish appointment are a bit harsh, even though understandable given the recent run of results.
The owners idea of establishing a club DNA, playing a certain brand of football makes sense to me. So there is less disruption when we do change manager.
It’s a consecutive sequence of games totalling more than a season’s worth of games, running up to the current day. It’s not cherrypicking, it’s just a matter of recency.
A good chunk of Russell Slade’s earlier CV is quite impressive, but there’s a very stark decline in performance and results post-Cardiff City, and that’s the reason he no longer gets a sniff at EFL or even non-league gigs. After a certain amount of time, his earlier achievements become increasingly less relevant.
We’re talking about a shorter timeframe when we look at David Artell’s career, but to dismiss analyses which highlight a very distinctive pattern over his 50+ games at two clubs as “poor” purely because it discounts earlier data is too simplistic, imo. Managers lose effectiveness. Managers lose the plot. Powerpoint peddling, Matt Dean-blaming Russell Slade again a very good case in point.
It is the very definition of cherry-picking. You just select the stats that you want prove your point.
To compare him to Russell Slade's career is unfair given that DA has only had one job, previously. But in that job he has already achieved something I don't think RS ever did and that was achieve a promotion.
If you are discounting data just because it doesn't fit your narrative, that is being too simplistic.
I wasn't ignoring his last season. Read what I said again.
I am sure JS did the same thing and saw how he built a club struggling at the foot of League Two to a team that finished 12th League One. I am also sure he would have asked him about his final season at Crewe and what were the reasons for such a poor season. So pretty similar to your process really.
I agree with you, people are being selective with the data, and they were when we hired him. It's based on the mood.
I knew how bad his last season with Crewe was, and I knew it came after losing a bunch of young players that came through the Dario Gradi system. What that told me was that he couldn't identify good players but could get a tune out of young developing ones already taught to play the Crewe way.
No way did I think it'd be this bad, but I'd have bet strongly that we won't progress playing this football in this division without the best academy below the Championship that's been going for decades at huge cost.
Now it's really hit the fan, all anybody can see is the bad. But he did get Crewe promoted and did win manager of the year, which is what people saw at first.
Both happened and both are valid. I tend to think a relegation season as your last is too big a red flag to ignore unless you're in a state like Sheff Utd where it was virtually impossible to stay up this season. Tha same goes for players and that's been right for every single one of them this season.
you can pin this if artell stops for 8 or 9 more games we will be in the national lge again next season but in my opinion he's got two games & fgr is a must win at home lose that & the fans will want blood & jason will have to admit a mistake
you can pin this if artell stops for 8 or 9 more games we will be in the national lge again next season but in my opinion he's got two games & fgr is a must win at home lose that & the fans will want blood & jason will have to admit a mistake
It is poor because it is selective. As you continue to be.
I think a reasonable argument would be the stats back up what most Crewe fans say -he had a decent 3 or 4 years with a young squad within a youth system that he was embedded in , in terms of coaching , their formation and method . He did well .
The squad got emptied out of the young talent ( a good few to Champ clubs ) which he had played a part in developing .
He's then required to recruit from outside the summer pre their relegation , something their own chairman in his own words said 'went extremely poorly' .
After relegation and a 16 game run without a win Artell is removed.
He's only had 1 try of recruiting from outside and it went particularly badly -- we are not Crewe we don't have an A* academy with millions poured in year in year out , no conveyor belt of talent .
I just wouldn't trust him over a summer window , even if he somehow managed to stay in situ and guide us to safety .
I agree with you, people are being selective with the data, and they were when we hired him. It's based on the mood.
I knew how bad his last season with Crewe was, and I knew it came after losing a bunch of young players that came through the Dario Gradi system. What that told me was that he couldn't identify good players but could get a tune out of young developing ones already taught to play the Crewe way.
No way did I think it'd be this bad, but I'd have bet strongly that we won't progress playing this football in this division without the best academy below the Championship that's been going for decades at huge cost.
Now it's really hit the fan, all anybody can see is the bad. But he did get Crewe promoted and did win manager of the year, which is what people saw at first.
Both happened and both are valid. I tend to think a relegation season as your last is too big a red flag to ignore unless you're in a state like Sheff Utd where it was virtually impossible to stay up this season. Tha same goes for players and that's been right for every single one of them this season.
I'm not so sure people were being selective with the data when they appointed him, certainly not the owners. They would have seen the promotion and the relegation and would have asked about both at the interview. I'm guessing he gave convincing mitigating circumstances for the relegation season and/or he had learned from the experience.
He took over Crewe in 2016, I think and eventually won promotion in 2020. That suggests it wasn't as simple as inheriting good youth players and he must have purchased players rather than just relying on the youth (so the recruitment couldn't have been terrible). The fact he got the most out of the youth players isn't a bad thing either in my book.
I agree with you, people are being selective with the data, and they were when we hired him. It's based on the mood.
I knew how bad his last season with Crewe was, and I knew it came after losing a bunch of young players that came through the Dario Gradi system. What that told me was that he couldn't identify good players but could get a tune out of young developing ones already taught to play the Crewe way.
No way did I think it'd be this bad, but I'd have bet strongly that we won't progress playing this football in this division without the best academy below the Championship that's been going for decades at huge cost.
Now it's really hit the fan, all anybody can see is the bad. But he did get Crewe promoted and did win manager of the year, which is what people saw at first.
Both happened and both are valid. I tend to think a relegation season as your last is too big a red flag to ignore unless you're in a state like Sheff Utd where it was virtually impossible to stay up this season. Tha same goes for players and that's been right for every single one of them this season.
Good post. I think he maybe believes his own hype because he got the promotion playing his way and thinks he's a better coach than he actually is. It would be foolish to ignore the promotion completely but he was essentially gifted almost an entire starting eleven, a talented one at that, that was already well versed in playing that way. Sadly even Pep Guardiola couldn't get a midfield three of Green, Andrews and Cilfton playing progressive, possession based football.
I'm not so sure people were being selective with the data when they appointed him, certainly not the owners. They would have seen the promotion and the relegation and would have asked about both at the interview. I'm guessing he gave convincing mitigating circumstances for the relegation season and/or he had learned from the experience.
He took over Crewe in 2016, I think and eventually won promotion in 2020. That suggests it wasn't as simple as inheriting good youth players and he must have purchased players rather than just relying on the youth (so the recruitment couldn't have been terrible). The fact he got the most out of the youth players isn't a bad thing either in my book.
He had 15 players that made more than 20 appearances. Of those 15, 9 had come through the academy. That's two thirds of your core squad. He had some astute signings of experienced players alongside that like Nicky Hunt and Paul Green.
You'd think so. But it seems so unlikely that this will turn around. Even if we beat Morecambe and draw with FGR which will be almost enough to keep us up, we'd need a spectacular upturn in form to have any chance of selling tickets next season. Sacking him and improving the results would at least give shoots of hope to sell tickets on.
Artell has lost the fans, winning that back is going to be harder than winning back the players. We can't afford to lose any income when we're already low paying, have committed to more stadium work next summer and the owners don't want to spend anymore on the club.
If I was JS, I'd be thinking he has to go it's just a case of are we more likely to stay up with or without him in charge for now.
You'd think so. But it seems so unlikely that this will turn around. Even if we beat Morecambe and draw with FGR which will be almost enough to keep us up, we'd need a spectacular upturn in form to have any chance of selling tickets next season. Sacking him and improving the results would at least give shoots of hope to sell tickets on.
Artell has lost the fans, winning that back is going to be harder than winning back the players. We can't afford to lose any income when we're already low paying, have committed to more stadium work next summer and the owners don't want to spend anymore on the club.
If I was JS, I'd be thinking he has to go it's just a case of are we more likely to stay up with or without him in charge for now.
Can I ask you one question PP, why on earth do you have to go in on the owners at every opportunity you get?
Are we low paying?..take it you've seen the players pay slips then?.. And JS & AP have stated they will keep filling in any voids 8n funds should they be needed.
He had 15 players that made more than 20 appearances. Of those 15, 9 had come through the academy. That's two thirds of your core squad. He had some astute signings of experienced players alongside that like Nicky Hunt and Paul Green.
Three or four of those players have gone on to Championship teams but not set the world alight. It seems a stretch to suggest any DA success was only because he had good youth players. I mean, we are not talking Man Utd class of '92 here are we.
I'm not so sure people were being selective with the data when they appointed him, certainly not the owners. They would have seen the promotion and the relegation and would have asked about both at the interview. I'm guessing he gave convincing mitigating circumstances for the relegation season and/or he had learned from the experience.
He took over Crewe in 2016, I think and eventually won promotion in 2020. That suggests it wasn't as simple as inheriting good youth players and he must have purchased players rather than just relying on the youth (so the recruitment couldn't have been terrible). The fact he got the most out of the youth players isn't a bad thing either in my book.
That reminds me of the point I missed out. The mitigating circumstances as you put it will be that the players were sold and he didn't have sufficient funds to replace them. That's the exact thing that's going to happen to him here.
This appointment was a dog and there was plenty of evidence that he wasn't what we needed. But even if he was, to try and play the way we are with the players we have is criminal. They were never going to be up to it and if that's what the board wanted, they needed to chuck a lot of money in alongside this manager to try it so soon.
Three or four of those players have gone on to Championship teams but not set the world alight. It seems a stretch to suggest any DA success was only because he had good youth players. I mean, we are not talking Man Utd class of '92 here are we.
But they didn't need to be the class of 92 did they? They weren't competing against Alan Shearer and Patrick Vieira, they were competing against Scunthorpe and Forest Green.
Three of those players are playing in the Championship currently. Two are playing for teams in the top 6 of League 1 (although Lowery isn't playing much due to injury). And two are playing for third and fourth place in this division currently. For context that would be like having four/five players who are roughly the standard of McAtee plus two others who are clearly very solid players at this level (Charlie Kirk and James Jones). How much better do you think we might be performing this season if we had four or five players even close to McAtee's standard plus a couple of others who are good?
But they didn't need to be the class of 92 did they? They weren't competing against Alan Shearer and Patrick Vieira, they were competing against Scunthorpe and Forest Green.
Three of those players are playing in the Championship currently. Two are playing for teams in the top 6 of League 1 (although Lowery isn't playing much due to injury). And two are playing for third and fourth place in this division currently. For context that would be like having four/five players who are roughly the standard of McAtee plus two others who are clearly very solid players at this level (Charlie Kirk and James Jones). How much better do you think we might be performing this season if we had four or five players even close to McAtee's standard plus a couple of others who are good?
I agree, the manager would probably be doing better if he had better players.
It is the very definition of cherry-picking. You just select the stats that you want prove your point.
To compare him to Russell Slade's career is unfair given that DA has only had one job, previously. But in that job he has already achieved something I don't think RS ever did and that was achieve a promotion.
If you are discounting data just because it doesn't fit your narrative, that is being too simplistic.
Basically people are making the point that more recent data should carry greater weight than older data. This is a pretty simple concept and is not cherry picking. Cherry picking would be picking some random sequence out of context.
I really hope your right and I thought that 2 points over Colchester a d Donny would be enough for the owners, but the fact the game is harder now I worry that a point or even a narrow defeat may be interpreted by them as he is turning it around. I hope I'm wrong and it is considered a must win game but I'm beginning to doubt that from JS tweet
Can I ask you one question PP, why on earth do you have to go in on the owners at every opportunity you get?
Are we low paying?..take it you've seen the players pay slips then?.. And JS & AP have stated they will keep filling in any voids 8n funds should they be needed.
At this moment in time I would hope we are low paying because if we are paying the going rate or above for Lge 2 players for some of our squad then I would be gutted.
Well this is my point really. Taking on any new manager is a risk.
I understand your point about an up and coming manager from the Leagues below. You could end up with an Alan Buckley or you may end up with a Marcus Bignot.
You are right, it really is a lottery. Which is why I feel some of the comments on here about attacking the owners for such a rubbish appointment are a bit harsh, even though understandable given the recent run of results.
The owners idea of establishing a club DNA, playing a certain brand of football makes sense to me. So there is less disruption when we do change manager.
I can accept some of what you said, however, DA did not take over at the end of a season at GTFC when he had time to make a team up, train and get to know them, and plan season 1,2, 3 etc it was a third way inro a season and we were sinking. Job No 1 2 3 was to stop us from sinking. We needed someone who was just out of a job, still could smell the sweaty socks from the changing room he left, and hit the job full pelt running and, crucially, had some 3 or 4 jobs under his belt so could cope with changes. DA had been out of the game for some 18 months on another tack, and this was his second-only club. He is still learning on the job. Now when it was questioned why the board was slow in appointing a PH replacement the reply was they were making sure it was the right person. This has been badly handled.
Well this is my point really. Taking on any new manager is a risk.
I understand your point about an up and coming manager from the Leagues below. You could end up with an Alan Buckley or you may end up with a Marcus Bignot.
You are right, it really is a lottery. Which is why I feel some of the comments on here about attacking the owners for such a rubbish appointment are a bit harsh, even though understandable given the recent run of results.
The owners idea of establishing a club DNA, playing a certain brand of football makes sense to me. So there is less disruption when we do change manager.
If only Artell had a record like Bignot we wouldn't be in this predicament.
I think a reasonable argument would be the stats back up what most Crewe fans say -he had a decent 3 or 4 years with a young squad within a youth system that he was embedded in , in terms of coaching , their formation and method . He did well .
The squad got emptied out of the young talent ( a good few to Champ clubs ) which he had played a part in developing .
He's then required to recruit from outside the summer pre their relegation , something their own chairman in his own words said 'went extremely poorly' .
After relegation and a 16 game run without a win Artell is removed.
He's only had 1 try of recruiting from outside and it went particularly badly -- we are not Crewe we don't have an A* academy with millions poured in year in year out , no conveyor belt of talent .
I just wouldn't trust him over a summer window , even if he somehow managed to stay in situ and guide us to safety .
As I have pointed out before;- The system at the Alex was decades long before Artell became part of it. He didnt play any part in setting it up and just filled a spot that was always there. He was only there five minutes and the system functioned with him or without him. None of the young players owe much to him as they were schooled by others. When the new batch are not quite ready the Alex slide downwards and everyone involved accepts that. He got the sack because when the youngsters werent ready his external recruitment was crap. You lads know exactly what that's like. I dont think he's any good at recruitment and from your comments on here I dont think you lads are prepared to wait six years to get a sophisticated youth system in place. I understand that you may be back in NL by then so it would be preferable to set up a youth system from a higher position in the league. I would feel just like you do if it was the Alex. Ironically when Crewe started the youth system they were 20th and managed to cling on to League status until it bore fruit. I still think you can stay up. And I hope you do. FGR and Sutton have to catch you and if you can scrap for a few points and survive who cares about the manner it is achieved?
As I have pointed out before;- The system at the Alex was decades long before Artell became part of it. He didnt play any part in setting it up and just filled a spot that was always there. He was only there five minutes and the system functioned with him or without him. None of the young players owe much to him as they were schooled by others. When the new batch are not quite ready the Alex slide downwards and everyone involved accepts that. He got the sack because when the youngsters werent ready his external recruitment was crap. You lads know exactly what that's like. I dont think he's any good at recruitment and from your comments on here I dont think you lads are prepared to wait six years to get a sophisticated youth system in place. I understand that you may be back in NL by then so it would be preferable to set up a youth system from a higher position in the league. I would feel just like you do if it was the Alex. Ironically when Crewe started the youth system they were 20th and managed to cling on to League status until it bore fruit. I still think you can stay up. And I hope you do. FGR and Sutton have to catch you and if you can scrap for a few points and survive who cares about the manner it is achieved?
Interesting post, and something which should have been clear to the owners at the point of due diligence.
The more I hear about DA and what his backstory was at Crewe makes me wonder what the owners were looking for.. doesn't really fit the criteria I would have thought we wanted and the squad we have in place..
That reminds me of the point I missed out. The mitigating circumstances as you put it will be that the players were sold and he didn't have sufficient funds to replace them. That's the exact thing that's going to happen to him here.
This appointment was a dog and there was plenty of evidence that he wasn't what we needed. But even if he was, to try and play the way we are with the players we have is criminal. They were never going to be up to it and if that's what the board wanted, they needed to chuck a lot of money in alongside this manager to try it so soon.
Perhaps 1878 misguidedly thought DA would do enough with the current squad with modest strenghtening this Jan, then with some of the youth coming through next season - Braithwaite, Khouri, Cam, the ex Scunny lad, freeing up budget for better signings next summer. Both JS and AP will have become fans at a time when we had a ridiculously good amount of local talent, add instant quality like Joe Waters and you have a championship winning side going straight on, with the addition of Whymark, to fringes of pomotion of the the top tier. 1878's strategy can only have been exellence starting with youth, plus a stream of young imports like McAtee and Conteh paying off. We'll never attract even top level League 2 level talent in their prime to Gy, unless we pay over the odds, that's been case for most of the last 50 years We've seen players preferring Rochdale, Barrow and Crewe to playing in front of crowds double the size in NEL in the last couple of years.
Interesting post, and something which should have been clear to the owners at the point of due diligence.
Exactly.
If the worst happens and we do get relegated then the board as one should fully explain how they came to the conclusion to give DA the position as Head Coach and did they go into the finer details of why he achieved success by getting Crewe promoted and then relegated in one of their worst ever seasons.
Were they blindsided by his desire to play this out from the back football and completely missed his mishandling of their relegation season?
Perhaps 1878 misguidedly thought DA would do enough with the current squad with modest strenghtening this Jan, then with some of the youth coming through next season - Braithwaite, Khouri, Cam, the ex Scunny lad, freeing up budget for better signings next summer. Both JS and AP will have become fans at a time when we had a ridiculously good amount of local talent, add instant quality like Joe Waters and you have a championship winning side going straight on, with the addition of Whymark, to fringes of pomotion of the the top tier. 1878's strategy can only have been exellence starting with youth, plus a stream of young imports like McAtee and Conteh paying off. We'll never attract even top level League 2 level talent in their prime to Gy, unless we pay over the odds, that's been case for most of the last 50 years We've seen players preferring Rochdale, Barrow and Crewe to playing in front of crowds double the size in NEL in the last couple of years.
Likely scenario
Were hoping the caretakers would have pulled better results. Such a cushion lost traction and wasn’t popular with the fans at all. So 6 weeks on a dash for DA ensued after other potentially better options were lost elsewhere.
lottery appointing a manager!!! Simple as, and how we got here is no surprise or did it involve complex thought.
Looks a Sh1T show right now but it’s only a team away from we’re back on track which might be a window away.
Players make managers, not managers make players.
Recruitment is everything. Can stats play a part, they always have and always will. Nothing new there.
Suspect we will buy time with a couple of quick wins and the ride goes on with L2 safety round the corner.
As I have pointed out before;- The system at the Alex was decades long before Artell became part of it. He didnt play any part in setting it up and just filled a spot that was always there. He was only there five minutes and the system functioned with him or without him. None of the young players owe much to him as they were schooled by others. When the new batch are not quite ready the Alex slide downwards and everyone involved accepts that. He got the sack because when the youngsters werent ready his external recruitment was crap. You lads know exactly what that's like. I dont think he's any good at recruitment and from your comments on here I dont think you lads are prepared to wait six years to get a sophisticated youth system in place. I understand that you may be back in NL by then so it would be preferable to set up a youth system from a higher position in the league. I would feel just like you do if it was the Alex. Ironically when Crewe started the youth system they were 20th and managed to cling on to League status until it bore fruit. I still think you can stay up. And I hope you do. FGR and Sutton have to catch you and if you can scrap for a few points and survive who cares about the manner it is achieved?
The more I hear about DA and what his backstory was at Crewe makes me wonder what the owners were looking for.. doesn't really fit the criteria I would have thought we wanted and the squad we have in place..
If the worst happens and we do get relegated then the board as one should fully explain how they came to the conclusion to give DA the position as Head Coach and did they go into the finer details of why he achieved success by getting Crewe promoted and then relegated in one of their worst ever seasons.
Were they blindsided by his desire to play this out from the back football and completely missed his mishandling of their relegation season?
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I’m a bit confused about this thread. Why are some having a go at the owners I don’t think in my eyes they have done anything wrong. The manager appointment is always a bit of a lottery and even they wouldn’t have known for things to turn out a bit crap. They have stated since day one that they want the club to be self sufficient so when they move on the club won’t be in a crap position when handing it over. Take for instance the training ground maybe it’s taking a while because they aren’t paying for it out their own pocket but from ticket sales and players sold (JF would have put this on a benign loan). I think they had done well considering how much they had to deal with since coming in. Sacking PH was not something they took lightly and probably wanted PH to turn it around and maybe gave him more time despite the data, but fan pressure probably did it for PH.
Am I the only one on here that thinks they are doing the best they can under the circumstances. I certainly don’t blame them for the position at present. They have done more for this club than JF ever did.
I’m a bit confused about this thread. Why are some having a go at the owners I don’t think in my eyes they have done anything wrong. The manager appointment is always a bit of a lottery and even they wouldn’t have known for things to turn out a bit crap. They have stated since day one that they want the club to be self sufficient so when they move on the club won’t be in a crap position when handing it over. Take for instance the training ground maybe it’s taking a while because they aren’t paying for it out their own pocket but from ticket sales and players sold (JF would have put this on a benign loan). I think they had done well considering how much they had to deal with since coming in. Sacking PH was not something they took lightly and probably wanted PH to turn it around and maybe gave him more time despite the data, but fan pressure probably did it for PH.
Am I the only one on here that thinks they are doing the best they can under the circumstances. I certainly don’t blame them for the position at present. They have done more for this club than JF ever did.
Don't be confused, being better than JF isn't great shakes. Everybody wanted PH to succeed, as it meant Town succeeded. They brought in an unknown DA, who I and others wanted to succeed and we end up like we are. Who brought in 21st group? Who brought in Technical Advisor Gareth Jennings, who allowed PH to stay?, who employed DA? Who designed this mess?
Am I the only one on here that thinks they are doing the best they can under the circumstances. I certainly don’t blame them for the position at present. They have done more for this club than JF ever did.
I suspect it is just an extension of the 'anti-data' thread(s). "What did the Romans (data) ever do for us", etc etc.
The owners are advocates of a data-led approach and therefore are considered entirely to blame, for some reason or other.
On that note, I'm an advocate of analysing data correctly in all areas of life (we wouldn't have civilisation without it), but I do wonder if there is a situation where the use of data in the lower divisions shouldn't be given as much attention as at higher levels? In the top couple of divisions, the players tend to be able to control even difficult balls on 9 out of 10 occasions and are probably accurate for more than 95 out of 100 basic passes. If the 'data' assumes every player can do the basics pretty much all of the time, the data they are going to be looking at will be from other aspects of play. Unfortunately, I don't think that our players control the ball on 9 out of 10 occasions and I'd had to even guess what their completion ratio for even simple passes might be. Might explain why the 'data' hasn't led us to sign players who are struggling to impose themselves.
I suspect it is just an extension of the 'anti-data' thread(s). "What did the Romans (data) ever do for us", etc etc.
The owners are advocates of a data-led approach and therefore are considered entirely to blame, for some reason or other.
On that note, I'm an advocate of analysing data correctly in all areas of life (we wouldn't have civilisation without it), but I do wonder if there is a situation where the use of data in the lower divisions shouldn't be given as much attention as at higher levels? In the top couple of divisions, the players tend to be able to control even difficult balls on 9 out of 10 occasions and are probably accurate for more than 95 out of 100 basic passes. If the 'data' assumes every player can do the basics pretty much all of the time, the data they are going to be looking at will be from other aspects of play. Unfortunately, I don't think that our players control the ball on 9 out of 10 occasions and I'd had to even guess what their completion ratio for even simple passes might be. Might explain why the 'data' hasn't led us to sign players who are struggling to impose themselves.
I pride myself as being the biggest anti data poster on here, and you quite rightly say data (or information as we used to quaintly call it) is indeed partly responsible for mankind's progress.
What we are talking about though is specifically data in a football context, apart from the incontrovertible data of the final score and league table. Everything else is just guff, as we have seen on countless occasions. Players coming with stats that might look good (or bad) in one team, and be completely different in another. That is because everything IS different.
Neither am I bothered about how many goals we nearly scored, or how many corners we got.
I don't care how many analysts we use, ten would come to 10 different conclusions and the PL employ the best there is but still manage to waste millions of pounds on players.
I suspect it is just an extension of the 'anti-data' thread(s). "What did the Romans (data) ever do for us", etc etc.
The owners are advocates of a data-led approach and therefore are considered entirely to blame, for some reason or other.
On that note, I'm an advocate of analysing data correctly in all areas of life (we wouldn't have civilisation without it), but I do wonder if there is a situation where the use of data in the lower divisions shouldn't be given as much attention as at higher levels? In the top couple of divisions, the players tend to be able to control even difficult balls on 9 out of 10 occasions and are probably accurate for more than 95 out of 100 basic passes. If the 'data' assumes every player can do the basics pretty much all of the time, the data they are going to be looking at will be from other aspects of play. Unfortunately, I don't think that our players control the ball on 9 out of 10 occasions and I'd had to even guess what their completion ratio for even simple passes might be. Might explain why the 'data' hasn't led us to sign players who are struggling to impose themselves.
True. We sometimes delude ourselves and forget that League 2 is actually 4th Tier. Data leading decisions have been embedded in Premier (top league) for some time as Clubs are looking for an edge with their £500 million team against the opposing £ 500 million team. Some in our team cannot trap the ball properly, our free kicks are in a vague direction, and our corners are more dangerous to us than the opposition as it's a springboard for a counterattack. Just because all horses have four legs, a head and a tail, it doesn't mean you should have plough horses running a steeplechase, nor race horses ploughing. They would give it a go but........
True. We sometimes delude ourselves and forget that League 2 is actually 4th Tier. Data leading decisions have been embedded in Premier (top league) for some time as Clubs are looking for an edge with their £500 million team against the opposing £ 500 million team. Some in our team cannot trap the ball properly, our free kicks are in a vague direction, and our corners are more dangerous to us than the opposition as it's a springboard for a counterattack. Just because all horses have four legs, a head and a tail, it doesn't mean you should have plough horses running a steeplechase, nor race horses ploughing. They would give it a go but........
This made me laugh out loud because it's so depressingly true.
Data Analyses has now become a multi million pound industry.To justify their own existence it adopts the jargon of professionalisation .This is purely in order to obfuscate and elevate the mystique of their analyses.This occurs in all walks of industry and science,it is nothing more than modern day quackery ,the purpose of which is to hold the masses in awe.Do not swallow it.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day,teach a man to fish and you give him an excuse for him to escape from the wife and kids for the weekend and drink lots of beer.
Data Analyses has now become a multi million pound industry.To justify their own existence it adopts the jargon of professionalisation .This is purely in order to obfuscate and elevate the mystique of their analyses.This occurs in all walks of industry and science,it is nothing more than modern day quackery ,the purpose of which is to hold the masses in awe.Do not swallow it.
What data are we actually using though? There can't have been much for DA's appointment as he hadn't worked for 18 months. Maybe a bit on sacking PH but virtually everyone thought it should be done when the axe fell. Maybe a bit on recruitment but many of the new players in their first interviews said Grimsby had been tracking them for a while? The only reason to keep DA on is lack of data, i.e. he's not had long enough. "The Grimsby Way" seems to have been selected based on nostalgia, it hasn't been seen since medieval times anyway in data terms.
I am all for using data in all sorts of areas but just because we keep mentioning it doesn't mean it is being used effectively.
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
The most important data we should be looking at, at the moment is the league table, and Artell’s record to date. Which begs the question, why is he still here?
I’m a bit confused about this thread. Why are some having a go at the owners I don’t think in my eyes they have done anything wrong. The manager appointment is always a bit of a lottery and even they wouldn’t have known for things to turn out a bit crap. They have stated since day one that they want the club to be self sufficient so when they move on the club won’t be in a crap position when handing it over. Take for instance the training ground maybe it’s taking a while because they aren’t paying for it out their own pocket but from ticket sales and players sold (JF would have put this on a benign loan). I think they had done well considering how much they had to deal with since coming in. Sacking PH was not something they took lightly and probably wanted PH to turn it around and maybe gave him more time despite the data, but fan pressure probably did it for PH.
Am I the only one on here that thinks they are doing the best they can under the circumstances. I certainly don’t blame them for the position at present. They have done more for this club than JF ever did.
So who do you think is to blame for the excrement performances and being 3rd from bottom of the EFL?
John Fenty Russell Slade Marcus Bignot Mike Lyons Don McEvoy Bill Harvey Peter Grotier Graham Rodger Stuart Watkiss Neil Woods And any other excrement managers I can't think of.
The girls and boys in the office The Stewards The ball boys and girls
I pride myself as being the biggest anti data poster on here, and you quite rightly say data (or information as we used to quaintly call it) is indeed partly responsible for mankind's progress.
What we are talking about though is specifically data in a football context, apart from the incontrovertible data of the final score and league table. Everything else is just guff, as we have seen on countless occasions. Players coming with stats that might look good (or bad) in one team, and be completely different in another. That is because everything IS different.
Neither am I bothered about how many goals we nearly scored, or how many corners we got.
I don't care how many analysts we use, ten would come to 10 different conclusions and the PL employ the best there is but still manage to waste millions of pounds on players.
I have to agree up to a point. Data can't be read in isolation. An obvious example might be a striker scores 20 goals a season at a club. He's signed based on this, moves and get 5 at his next club. The missing bit of data is the rest of the team getting the ball into a position so that he can score at his previous club. If the team he moves to dont have that ability then he cant score as many
If you can see alright you don't need data to tell you what's happening. The players are not playing either through choice or more likely urine poor tactics and coaching. We're getting visibily worse by the game and bizarre transfer business suggests there is a lot more going on than we realise behind tge scenes.Where is the money? Is there any money even?
Which bit of data dictated that we allow one of the few decent footballers at the club out on loan?
WTF is going on?
Is he a decent footballer, though? Oldham, Hurst and now Artell didn't/don't apparently seem to think so, given the number of appearances he's made since the start of 2023.
Very strange situation where he looks to have some ability at times, but completely disappears out of games at others. 26 League starts and a dozen sub appearances at the age of 23 isn't exactly indicative of a great future ahead of him. It will be interesting to see how he does at York.
I pride myself as being the biggest anti data poster on here, and you quite rightly say data (or information as we used to quaintly call it) is indeed partly responsible for mankind's progress.
What we are talking about though is specifically data in a football context, apart from the incontrovertible data of the final score and league table. Everything else is just guff, as we have seen on countless occasions. Players coming with stats that might look good (or bad) in one team, and be completely different in another. That is because everything IS different.
Neither am I bothered about how many goals we nearly scored, or how many corners we got.
I don't care how many analysts we use, ten would come to 10 different conclusions and the PL employ the best there is but still manage to waste millions of pounds on players.[/
It could be worse at least we are no longer talking about 5 year plans
Is he a decent footballer, though? Oldham, Hurst and now Artell didn't/don't apparently seem to think so, given the number of appearances he's made since the start of 2023.
Very strange situation where he looks to have some ability at times, but completely disappears out of games at others. 26 League starts and a dozen sub appearances at the age of 23 isn't exactly indicative of a great future ahead of him. It will be interesting to see how he does at York.
Does it matter if Oldham, Hurst and now Artell don't seem to rate him enough to play him, there are players we have let go that are playing for better teams than us and most of our current players have been let go by their former clubs so obviously weren't wanted at those clubs.
Is he a decent footballer, though? Oldham, Hurst and now Artell didn't/don't apparently seem to think so, given the number of appearances he's made since the start of 2023.
Very strange situation where he looks to have some ability at times, but completely disappears out of games at others. 26 League starts and a dozen sub appearances at the age of 23 isn't exactly indicative of a great future ahead of him. It will be interesting to see how he does at York.
So it seems that he sees him as a ‘nice’ player who needs to learn to be more effective. It’s an interesting theory- let’s see what happens.
Well our investment business use data analyse, charting, past data, artificial intelligence, future forecasts, then i go and have a chat to the company, we base our investment decision on the chat, that's how we have found to be the most successful way of making a success of investing money in the right people, face to face, with lots of questions, so data only takes you so far, but past performance really is not a guide to future performance, if you follow my point.
Yep, an odd comment in that interview. I suspect that we have probably seen the last of him, unless he really sparks at York.
I sort of hope not , but he's probably been given a fair run here .
I do feel if he was used further up the pitch where giving the ball away isn't as much of an issue he could be a really good player for us - he's pretty similiar to Sbarra at Solihull I think who Ardley worked with before and who looked really good . It will be interesting to see if Ardley uses him in a similiar role with less defensive responsibility and more license to roam .
Well our investment business use data analyse, charting, past data, artificial intelligence, future forecasts, then i go and have a chat to the company, we base our investment decision on the chat, that's how we have found to be the most successful way of making a success of investing money in the right people, face to face, with lots of questions, so data only takes you so far, but past performance really is not a guide to future performance, if you follow my point.
Well our investment business use data analyse, charting, past data, artificial intelligence, future forecasts, then i go and have a chat to the company, we base our investment decision on the chat, that's how we have found to be the most successful way of making a success of investing money in the right people, face to face, with lots of questions, so data only takes you so far, but past performance really is not a guide to future performance, if you follow my point.
It can’t be healthy that I woke up at 5am and have spent the last 2 hours pondering the implications of today’s game . * I did break for 5 minutes by constructing a build a bet on the most likely outcome of the game which wasn’t full of positives *
Stockwood on Humberside live at 2.30. That's on of a few big differences between the new owners and Fenty. They will front up and answer questions about their decisions.
He will inevitably talk about himself for half of it 😂 but I'm sure he'll answer any questions as well.
Stockwood on Humberside live at 2.30. That's on of a few big differences between the new owners and Fenty. They will front up and answer questions about their decisions.
He will inevitably talk about himself for half of it 😂 but I'm sure he'll answer any questions as well.
Can’t see him sacking Artell after the game then if that’s the case.
Stockwood on Humberside live at 2.30. That's on of a few big differences between the new owners and Fenty. They will front up and answer questions about their decisions.
He will inevitably talk about himself for half of it 😂 but I'm sure he'll answer any questions as well.
Hmmmm. He had time to write another Graudian article in the past week or so. I’m sure he could have found half an hour for a chat with Matt Dean & John Tondeur earlier than this. But better late than never.
Stockwood on Humberside live at 2.30. That's on of a few big differences between the new owners and Fenty. They will front up and answer questions about their decisions.
He will inevitably talk about himself for half of it 😂 but I'm sure he'll answer any questions as well.
A good interview relies on good questions. Let's see where JT goes with it - he's usually very soft on Stockwood.
Stockwood on Humberside live at 2.30. That's on of a few big differences between the new owners and Fenty. They will front up and answer questions about their decisions.
He will inevitably talk about himself for half of it 😂 but I'm sure he'll answer any questions as well.
Don’t think that’s fair..as much as I cant abide he who shall not be named ..don’t think he ‘avoided’ the media..quite the opposite..I recall the infamous phone call from a lay by to Radio Humberside for example.
Hmmmm. He had time to write another Graudian article in the past week or so. I’m sure he could have found half an hour for a chat with Matt Dean & John Tondeur earlier than this. But better late than never.
What more do you want? He's coming on live radio before our next game to answer questions.
Don’t think that’s fair..as much as I cant abide he who shall not be named ..don’t think he ‘avoided’ the media..quite the opposite..I recall the infamous phone call from a lay by to Radio Humberside for example.
I think it's really fair. Early days he did the odd interview, realised he would be asked tricky questions, didn't like it and stopped doing them. For years the communication from him was through statements and he would never answer questions on them on the radio. An interview with him on Humberside about an issue was a complete rarity.
I think it's really fair. Early days he did the odd interview, realised he would be asked tricky questions, didn't like it and stopped doing them. For years the communication from him was through statements and he would never answer questions on them on the radio. An interview with him on Humberside about an issue was a complete rarity.
Fair do’s. Of course the ideal scenario would be to not hear a peep from owners..in which case it normally means your club is doing well. They tend to get heard, or asked to be heard, when it’s the opposite.
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