Hurst in or out?

Quoted from DB

The problem is that it's not so much the results but the pathetic quality of football as well.

I think this is where we get into that subjective bit. I think from Barrow onwards it's been a little turgid and we haven't got really going. Prior to Barrow I don't think we've played particularly badly. It's not high end football, but from what I've seen Notts County and Mansfield I thought played good football, especially for this level, everyone else has looked just as good/average/bad as we are whichever way your needle lies.

Notts County, for their lovely football have proven to be vulnerable at the back, evidenced by the fact they've conceded more than us. They just happen to be more clinical than us at the same time. Mansfield have only scored 5 more than us but have conceded 11 in the league. Wrexham have conceded 2 more than us.

I have my frustrations with aspects of how we seem to be playing, but the overall general picture I'm not unhappy with. Barrow was a poor performance, by far the worst of the season for me. Tranmere wasn't quite as poor but we didn't get into the same type of stride like we have done at Swindon away, Wrexham in the second half, Stockport as we went on to play at times, Bradford first half, Gillingham the whole 90. Accrington was a bit the same as Tranmere and you wonder what happens if Waterfall doesn't get sent off (I still don't think we win in that scenario) and Colchester we were marginally the better team in general play and from perspective of shots on goal etc.

All the above is insignificant when the results don't follow though and I think every fan who is behind PH knows this and understands that's the basis of why the calls are growing. But I don't believe - other than Barrow and Mansfield - that we've been wholly outplayed. We're falling the wrong side of fine margins, sadly those margins being the all important goals. Fine margins however can swing more quickly than fundamental deep rooted issues. This weekend, Jake Eastwood could face 13 shots on target and save every one of them, whereas we have 4 and score all of them. No-one will care that it suggests we haven't played great, 4-0 away masks everything else.

At 15 games last season we had W6, D5, L4 F17 A12. This season we're at W3 D5 L7 F20 A25.

My personal analysis - and I've mentioned this elsewhere - is that last season, given the short turnaround time, PH went with his pragmatic hard to beat routine and it served us well. He's had a little more money and a lot more time to prepare a team this summer and I think he's tried to be more expansive and not revert to his previous type of doing what's necessary to achieve a target. Our situation allowed him to try and move towards a more proactive type of football, evidenced by the fact we've scored more goals, but I think in doing so we've compromised our defensive stability. There's still some reservation and conservative football in there, but I won't be budged on the idea we've looked much more fluid a footballing team this season than last. There's no doubt wrinkles to iron out, defensively for certain and some variation in how we begin/progress attacks but we've generally looked decent for most parts of the season, and it would be reasonable to suggest that the last four performances that have been a little more ropey come down to nerves and a consciousness of growing concern.

The more I keep reading of fans wanting to get behind PH and give him more time to sort it the more I'm getting right behind them. It's no secret I'm a fan of PH but he is right in the firing line at the minute and would be understandable if he were relieved of his duties but I'm growing in the belief that if everyone making the trip to Donny get right behind the guys throughout the whole game then we can put a stop to the rot, take a pause, hopefully progress R1 of FA Cup and start to build again, confidence and results.

Quoted from AncientExiledMariner

Eastwood isn't the number 1. Cartwright is. I think it's probably clear that our first choice didn't work out as we would have liked, and we're sticking with the backup for now. We probably cannot deal with the situation until January.

No football manager gets every decision right. We shouldn't expect them to. We just need to see that at the first opportunity, they look to resolve it.

You honestly believe that because Cartwright wears No.1 jersey he is obviously the first choice? a young loan signing (Hurst rarely has much confidence in young players) over a player he has signed repeatedly paid a fee for and furnished with a 2 year contract?

No chance.

I think the kindest thing for Hurst would be to remove him now before it all turns really toxic. It still saddens me nearly 20 years later that Paul Groves (one of my heroes growing up) was subjected to negative chants at Oldham as our final memory of him after 11 years service over 2 spells.

He deserved better. Paul Hurst deserves better.

Quoted from RonMariner

I know what you mean, and the players have to take responsibility for their poor decision making. But then again it is surely the job of the coaching staff to instill best practice into players. What on earth do they do with them all day in training if not to help rid them of bad habits, instill best practice, and improve their decision making?

A club of our size should aim to be improving players both for our own results and potential financial gain. Sadly it seems that players brought to the club recently do not show any meaningful signs of improvement. That is very concerning and does not reflect well on the management and coaching staff. .  

There's only so much you can coach in terms of bad habits. Alex Hunt is a talented player but frequently loses possession both with simple and more complex passing. He's been taken out the team and I have no doubt that they'll be working in training to nurture a better decision making process to improve his impact in games. This will take time however. The reality is that clubs take kids from such a young age because once a habit is formed, by the time you're an adult you're less likely to break it. It's in that development process you instill the ability to scan, change the picture you see, when to retain possession, when to progress etc.

The mistakes we see are largely down to player decision making in a given scenario. If all they did was look at bad scenarios, re-run and correct them then we'd never progress ourselves because the same scenario is unlikely to play itself out in the same way. Colchesters goalkeeper is unlikely to ever have that situation again and head into his own net, so why take that to the training ground?

The day to day coaching will be preparation for the next game and focus on how we attack in certain ways or defend certain threats. You can't legislate for what will happen in a game that hasn't happened the mistakes that will follow, you can only coach what happens in training as it presents itself or in the absence of what you want. Mistakes are exactly that and you can't legislate or predict them to make it a focus in a training session.

For all those saying we need to give him more time, how much more time do we give him and what do we classify as turning it around sufficiently enough?

We can't give unlimited time and we can't accept 1 win every 6 games, I am concerned we are sleepwalking into a relegation battle and then we will have the usual "we can't sack him now"

I appreciate Hurst and everything he's done for us the promotions and the FA cup run I was at every one of those games and I loved it, but it is about the here and now, and I feel the best thing for both club and Paul himself is that he is dismissed

Quoted from Stranger in the Park

I think it's fair to observe that most of the recent signings have not improved the squad to the level expected despite the use of data and dedicated recruitment personnel. In the main, the backline has missed the marshalling that Waterfall brought to the side and there is no strong leadership without his lead. Too many of the new players went straight into the side creating an imbalance and are still playing like strangers. Like many others, I believe we have a goalkeeper issue that needs serious address. Also, I don't believe that the current backline are sufficiently skilled to play out from the back and play far too many balls backward thus inviting pressure. Would a change of manager address these matters - there's no guarantee. The prime example is Nigel Atkin at Tranmere Rovers, a rated big name but in a worse position than town. I accept that the team selection is the responsibility of the incumbent manager but poor results are down to that team and whichever way you look at it quite a few are just not fit or responsible enough to be included. Even so-called rated players were released by their previous clubs for a reason. With our backs to the sea and surrounded by rural areas we will never have the wealth required to be a "big" club (only 4% of the population of NE Lincs attend BP at best) so our budget and lure will never attract the best players or managers. Consequently, I don't believe that a change of manager at this point will achieve anything drastic- but a good clear out of the passengers in January might.

I agree with some of that - basically the recruitment has not been anywhere near as good as we hoped. It is a squad that a novice manager might have put together for league 2. I do hope not too much pressure was brought by the specialist recruitment people to justify their cost at the expense of pragmatism. I can't think Hurst would be swayed by that and surely the final decisions lie with him.

I don't see what having backs to the sea has anything to do with owt. Lots of clubs are by the seaside and their attendances usually reflect their league standing.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

I imagine the poll has shifted because those with the hardest line against Hurst were the ones coming on here after the game on Tuesday and early in the morning Wednesday.

Anyhow, we all know 52% v 48% is considered enough of a landslide that the 48% are completed ignored. So based on that 30% (if truly reflective of overall opinion) is a drop in the ocean.

I think that’s exactly what’s happened, and it does change the complexion of things quite a bit (though I also get your 52/48 argument - I thought about this earlier but felt bringing Brexit into a topic already very divisive probably wouldn’t help things).

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

I don't see what having backs to the sea has anything to do with owt. Lots of clubs are by the seaside and their attendances usually reflect their league standing.

Mainly all money . You could be a unglamourous club with no real history but if you get a rich chairmen come in and he gives you a good salary at all respective levels of the game(in this country and abroad) a lot of players  heads will be turned.Just look at what is happening in Saudi with the vast money players are getting and top level footballers going there eg Neymar Jr, Karim Benzema,Sadio Mane,Riyad Mahrez.

Quoted from gtfc_chris

I think this is where we get into that subjective bit. I think from Barrow onwards it's been a little turgid and we haven't got really going. Prior to Barrow I don't think we've played particularly badly. It's not high end football, but from what I've seen Notts County and Mansfield I thought played good football, especially for this level, everyone else has looked just as good/average/bad as we are whichever way your needle lies.

Notts County, for their lovely football have proven to be vulnerable at the back, evidenced by the fact they've conceded more than us. They just happen to be more clinical than us at the same time. Mansfield have only scored 5 more than us but have conceded 11 in the league. Wrexham have conceded 2 more than us.

I have my frustrations with aspects of how we seem to be playing, but the overall general picture I'm not unhappy with. Barrow was a poor performance, by far the worst of the season for me. Tranmere wasn't quite as poor but we didn't get into the same type of stride like we have done at Swindon away, Wrexham in the second half, Stockport as we went on to play at times, Bradford first half, Gillingham the whole 90. Accrington was a bit the same as Tranmere and you wonder what happens if Waterfall doesn't get sent off (I still don't think we win in that scenario) and Colchester we were marginally the better team in general play and from perspective of shots on goal etc.

All the above is insignificant when the results don't follow though and I think every fan who is behind PH knows this and understands that's the basis of why the calls are growing. But I don't believe - other than Barrow and Mansfield - that we've been wholly outplayed. We're falling the wrong side of fine margins, sadly those margins being the all important goals. Fine margins however can swing more quickly than fundamental deep rooted issues. This weekend, Jake Eastwood could face 13 shots on target and save every one of them, whereas we have 4 and score all of them. No-one will care that it suggests we haven't played great, 4-0 away masks everything else.

At 15 games last season we had W6, D5, L4 F17 A12. This season we're at W3 D5 L7 F20 A25.

My personal analysis - and I've mentioned this elsewhere - is that last season, given the short turnaround time, PH went with his pragmatic hard to beat routine and it served us well. He's had a little more money and a lot more time to prepare a team this summer and I think he's tried to be more expansive and not revert to his previous type of doing what's necessary to achieve a target. Our situation allowed him to try and move towards a more proactive type of football, evidenced by the fact we've scored more goals, but I think in doing so we've compromised our defensive stability. There's still some reservation and conservative football in there, but I won't be budged on the idea we've looked much more fluid a footballing team this season than last. There's no doubt wrinkles to iron out, defensively for certain and some variation in how we begin/progress attacks but we've generally looked decent for most parts of the season, and it would be reasonable to suggest that the last four performances that have been a little more ropey come down to nerves and a consciousness of growing concern.

The more I keep reading of fans wanting to get behind PH and give him more time to sort it the more I'm getting right behind them. It's no secret I'm a fan of PH but he is right in the firing line at the minute and would be understandable if he were relieved of his duties but I'm growing in the belief that if everyone making the trip to Donny get right behind the guys throughout the whole game then we can put a stop to the rot, take a pause, hopefully progress R1 of FA Cup and start to build again, confidence and results.

I agree we are not quite as bad as our league position would indicate, but neither are we very good, let's be honest.

Too many poor signings, no set system of play, no urgency, no leadership, no excitement for the fans.

It's obviously entirely up to Stockwood and Co. what direction they take and it could indeed hinge on one great result to get things firing as confidence is a huge thing. I guess they will hold fire for the moment and see what the next game or two brings.

Quoted from male private Nale

You honestly believe that because Cartwright wears No.1 jersey he is obviously the first choice? a young loan signing (Hurst rarely has much confidence in young players) over a player he has signed repeatedly paid a fee for and furnished with a 2 year contract?

No chance.

I'm pretty sure Hurst said so himself when they both signed that Cartwright was the one in posession of the no 1 spot , obviously his thinking must have changed somewhat in pre-season.