I did say we would get a deal but a few remoaners kept saying no we wont.
Well we have
We hardly claimed back our fishing waters though, a 25% reduction of foreign fleets quota over five and a half years and then more negotiating is hardly a win and certainly won’t see an extra boat sailing out of Grimsby. There was always going to be deal at the last minute, it would of been a complete disaster if there wasn’t, how good it is will be seen in years to come
I did say we would get a deal but a few remoaners kept saying no we wont.
Well we have
About the same as Theresa Mays deal. Nothing to get excited about. At least you’ll get a blue passport so they’ll put you in a slower lane at border control.
Disappointing, but not surprising, that people like Pete can only see this in terms of “winning” or “losing” an argument that was decided nearly 5 years ago, rather than how this is going to impact people’s lives.
Most of these people won’t be around to see the impact of their decisions. There was always going to be a deal, the “no deal@ threat is the most successful bluff in history.
Disappointing, but not surprising, that people like Pete can only see this in terms of “winning” or “losing” an argument that was decided nearly 5 years ago, rather than how this is going to impact people’s lives.
Most of these people won’t be around to see the impact of their decisions. There was always going to be a deal, the “no deal@ threat is the most successful bluff in history.
It was the remainers on here started saying we are going to lose and not get a deal. It did not matter how many times I said we would it was just doom and gloom all the time.
We are going to be better off out you wait and see.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
We can now catch MORE of our own fish than we could when we where in the EU.
You'll never please the remoaners Boris mate, those that insisted we get a deal.
Whose a remoaner,I voted to leave to get our waters back, Johnson has completely failed in this, they are even allowed to fish within our 12 mile limit. If you want to see it’s a a positive it’s your choice, the fact is we caved in on fishing to get a deal, we have our sovereignty but not our waters. Norway have a much better deal no one but them can fish their seas without permission. So we got back a tiny bit of our own fish wow Not interested in who won or lost, this is not much different to Mays deal, but I am sure the spin will be different. I would expect the local MPs to vote against because it sold the fishing industry down the river, However it seems Starmer will back it so it should sail through
It was the remainers on here started saying we are going to lose and not get a deal. It did not matter how many times I said we would it was just doom and gloom all the time.
We are going to be better off out you wait and see.
We were always going to get "a deal" of some sort. The question is, is it a good deal? We haven't "won" anything. You think 660 billion sounds impressive because it's a big number. It's a flipping drop in a very large ocean. An ocean we can no longer sail in.
We were always going to get "a deal" of some sort. The question is, is it a good deal? We haven't "won" anything. You think 660 billion sounds impressive because it's a big number. It's a flipping drop in a very large ocean. An ocean we can no longer sail in.
We don’t have either the trawlers or the fishermen to sail any oceans anyway Ginny. Disgraceful as it is, the time of trawling from Grimsby has gone for good. However good or bad the deal, sadly that is the reality we have to live with after 50 odd years of being sold down the river by different governments and screwed by every French president since De Gaulle. My deceased fishing relatives will be spinning in their graves whichever way it turns out.
“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.” ― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty."
We were always going to get "a deal" of some sort. The question is, is it a good deal? We haven't "won" anything. You think 660 billion sounds impressive because it's a big number. It's a flipping drop in a very large ocean. An ocean we can no longer sail in.
We can sail on our bit.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
Pete. That £660 billion pounds isn’t new business. It’s the £660billion we would be doing anyway tariff free. We’re no better off . In fact worse off because in the Single Market EU countries can’t put up all sorts of little blocks to our exports. Plus there’s all the extra bureaucracy. Business has to recruit an extra 50,000 non-productive people to handle the paperwork = lower profits = less tax. The government is having to employ more customs and excise staff (imagine that, all those extra Swins 😉) which taxpayers have to cover. The finance industry (one of our big export earners) isn’t protected to the same degree, so again we lose profitable business and taxes.
As Ron pointed out, we don’t have the capacity in our fishing industry to benefit so that extra ‘British’ fish will be caught by foreign fishermen in foreign owned boats sailing under a flag of convenience.
You’ve been had if you think this is good deal.
Oh and we have a customs boarder between GB and NI. Good work Boris you lying cûnt!
Still I can get a blue passport next year. Whoop-defucking do!
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
It was the remainers on here started saying we are going to lose and not get a deal. It did not matter how many times I said we would it was just doom and gloom all the time.
We are going to be better off out you wait and see.
Forgive me if I fail to recognise your foresight Pete, after all you followed 'In Jolley we trust' with 'In Ollie we trust' The new bloke must be shitting himself that you will approve of him
On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries
Truth is, Boris lied (surprise) and is now parading the agreement like he's won the World Cup.
The extra fishing quotas will be sold to the highest bidder like the last lot were.
Then there is the work time directive, which we will scrap and our workers will be back to being the most poorly treated in Western Europe. Turkeys voting for Christmas.
We will make them on better terms...for some people - the millionaire class who will be cutting standards and protections for working people. The gradual decline in living conditions will not be felt immediately but will represent a further lost generation of ordinary young people. And the people who voted overwhelmingly for it will be wormfood.
We are free to make our own deals now and we will make them on better terms.
Stop being so defeatist .
Fair enough, never noticed the smiley.
I'm not defeatist, I'm sad for the coming generations who will get shafted as ska says. I'm also sad that the people that voted for it were lied to. The people who wanted this have their own agenda, to ride rough shod over the workers of the country, the very people they convinced to vote for it under the guise of nationalism and sovereignty.
It won't affect me much nor will it you, but it will those that come after us. You've been conned by smooth operators like Dominic Cummings, a man who has already outlived his usefulness and been discarded.
If I were a younger man, I'd fook off to live in Denmark or Sweden.
We are free to make our own deals now and we will make them on better terms.
Stop being so defeatist .
Pete, we’ve made deals with 58 countries already. Every country has given us the same terms as we had when we were in the EU. Now, every UK exporter will need to fill in reams of paperwork to do the same as they used to, no British citizen will be on a level playing field when they apply for a job in Europe but, hey ho, we can fish in the boats we haven’t got any more.
Progress? It’s put us back 50 years except we haven’t got the manufacturing base we had then. But we’ve still got the British Empire.....haven’t we?
Pete, I’ve asked this question several times, had various answers, but not one that convinced me of the benefit of leaving the EU.
Please give me a positive outcome that the UK will get from leaving.
When we went into the "Common Market" I was all for it, a union based on trade. It is now becoming a political union which I am against. Very dangerous ground with the end game probably a United States of Europe with Germany running it and calling the shots. Hitler tried to do it with war.
When Leeds trainer Les Cocker was once told Norman Hunter had broken a leg, he asked: “Whose is it?”
When we went into the "Common Market" I was all for it, a union based on trade. It is now becoming a political union which I am against. Very dangerous ground with the end game probably a United States of Europe with Germany running it and calling the shots. Hitler tried to do it with war.
Too many disparate beliefs for a Us of Europe. Too many languages and too many types of economy. That’s never been a possibility. I get the argument about a European army but, due to globalisation, our threats are outside not inside Europe.
Whose a remoaner,I voted to leave to get our waters back, Johnson has completely failed in this, they are even allowed to fish within our 12 mile limit. If you want to see it’s a a positive it’s your choice, the fact is we caved in on fishing to get a deal, we have our sovereignty but not our waters. Norway have a much better deal no one but them can fish their seas without permission. So we got back a tiny bit of our own fish wow Not interested in who won or lost, this is not much different to Mays deal, but I am sure the spin will be different. I would expect the local MPs to vote against because it sold the fishing industry down the river, However it seems Starmer will back it so it should sail through
No doubt they'll be giving their quotes on how it's a fantastic deal. I'll pretty sure they'll both vote for it without a thought for a local industry. Let's face it there both not exactly champions for local issues.
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
Boris Johnson has lied to the fishing industry and sold it out for a deal , you can choose to believe his propaganda machine or you can look at the facts, I believe we will do ok outside the U.K. but pretending it is anything but a poor deal for U.K. sovereignty over its waters is just stupid, and to think for many that wasn’t the main point of Brexit is very strange
Unusual for a 'trade deal' to add so many restrictions to trading instead of removing them, but that's the nature of the beast with Brexit.
Anyway, as expected, the fishing industry has been chucked under a bus. Unfortunately, so has the services sector which is one of the biggest contributors to our economy. Not too many extra impediments for the manufacturing sector, thankfully.
Ultimately, not as much of a shitshow as no deal at all but obviously worse terms than membership of the EU or EFTA. Screwed over the ease with which our kids can study, live and work abroad as well, of course. Let's hope that our extra sovereignty is worth it.
Not an encouraging start that the bill going through parliament (which will pass as Keir 'Bloody Useless' Starmer is whipping his MPs to support it), contains clauses to allow ministers to effectively make up the law at will without going to parliament. Can you imagine just what sort of nonsense the current bunch of no-marks will come up with?
Unusual for a 'trade deal' to add so many restrictions to trading instead of removing them, but that's the nature of the beast with Brexit.
Anyway, as expected, the fishing industry has been chucked under a bus. Unfortunately, so has the services sector which is one of the biggest contributors to our economy. Not too many extra impediments for the manufacturing sector, thankfully.
Ultimately, not as much of a shitshow as no deal at all but obviously worse terms than membership of the EU or EFTA. Screwed over the ease with which our kids can study, live and work abroad as well, of course. Let's hope that our extra sovereignty is worth it.
Not an encouraging start that the bill going through parliament (which will pass as Keir 'Bloody Useless' Starmer is whipping his MPs to support it), contains clauses to allow ministers to effectively make up the law at will without going to parliament. Can you imagine just what sort of nonsense the current bunch of no-marks will come up with?
Labours position is irrelevant. The Conservatives have an ample majority for it to pass.
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
As the ERG nutters have apparently decided it will be OK for them, I realise that Labour's position is irrelevant in the vote itself, but by whipping they are appearing to back it completely. When the inevitable fallout occurs, they'll be seen as complicit and can't argue they'd have done anything different.
I'd imagine Starmer feels he has to be seen as being decisive on something as he's been so reluctant to take a stand before now, but this isn't the time or the place in my view. Abstain and make clear that you've done so because it is a weak deal in so many respects. It might hurt in the shorter-term, but the next election is a long way off and people's memories are short.
Wasn't meant as an insult, sorry you saw it that way.
Dominic Cummings came up with strategy they used. The big red bus and everything. Watch the film they made about it, starring Benedict Cumberbatch.
Taking back control was Cummings' tag line
It was he that added the "back" in to the "taking control" notion....
Quite a shrewd move because it made those who wanted to leave think they would be getting something tangible back that had been taken away from them rather than just enforcing the concept of the UK government controlling things independently (budgets etc)
Whose a remoaner,I voted to leave to get our waters back, Johnson has completely failed in this, they are even allowed to fish within our 12 mile limit. If you want to see it’s a a positive it’s your choice, the fact is we caved in on fishing to get a deal, we have our sovereignty but not our waters. Norway have a much better deal no one but them can fish their seas without permission. So we got back a tiny bit of our own fish wow Not interested in who won or lost, this is not much different to Mays deal, but I am sure the spin will be different. I would expect the local MPs to vote against because it sold the fishing industry down the river, However it seems Starmer will back it so it should sail through
As predicted both local MP's voted for the trade deal. No doubt they'll have some soundbites around the local fishing industry & then that'll be the last we hear about it.
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
We are free to make our own deals now and we will make them on better terms.
Stop being so defeatist .
Pete, he’s being defeatist because we lost. It’s 1944 and we’re Germany. We beat ourselves. Suicide.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
I second what PP says we joined a common market not the United States of europe.
We are better off making our own rules, laws and deals not been told by other unelected ( by us ) people.
Like intercourse we are! 😂😂😂😂
Sure you’ve seen evidence of the last few months.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
It’s been over 4 years since the heroic vote to leave, we’ve just got a deal with the wannabe empire and its not even been a month in and they’re (remoaners) still at it 😩 Guys just accept we are now back to being a free independent Country and we will remain so for the rest of your lives. Living in hope that we may one day in our lifetime rejoining is delusion, so instead of the bitter joy for every decision that might go against us, how about putting the past behind come together and get behind the greatest country that ever was.
It’s been over 4 years since the heroic vote to leave, we’ve just got a deal with the wannabe empire and its not even been a month in and they’re (remoaners) still at it 😩 Guys just accept we are now back to being a free independent Country and we will remain so for the rest of your lives. Living in hope that we may one day in our lifetime rejoining is delusion, so instead of the bitter joy for every decision that might go against us, how about putting the past behind come together and get behind the greatest country that ever was.
Heroic!!! 😂😂😂😂😂😂
You’re really a prize dingbat aren’t you. The sacrifice of drawing a cross on a bit of paper. How future generations will marvel. 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
We have only been out a few days KM and in the middle of a pandemic .
And we’ve already seen billions of pounds worth of Euro trades leave the City of London. Paris and Frankfurt thank you for your contribution to their economies.
To say nothing of the thanks given by Irish Republicans for another step towards a united Ireland.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Of course now we’re an independent country we can determine our own laws within the United Kingdom....oh hang on a minute, one phone call from the President Elect (did any U.K. citizens get to vote in that election?) and we have to set up a customs border between constituent parts of the U.K.
Rule Britannia eh? We don’t even rule the waves between Scotland and NI!
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
And we’ve already seen billions of pounds worth of Euro trades leave the City of London. Paris and Frankfurt thank you for your contribution to their economies.
To say nothing of the thanks given by Irish Republicans for another step towards a united Ireland.
I think there should be a United Ireland keeping part of it in the UK cost a lot of lives both sides of the water.
You are nearly as bad as the trump supporters believe what you want to believe the other lot whether it's brexit voters the Conservatives they are wrong and you are right. I know you won't change your mind on the subjects but I at least can see both sides point of view and don't need to push my views down other people's throats because they don't agree.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
I think there should be a United Ireland keeping part of it in the UK cost a lot of lives both sides of the water.
You are nearly as bad as the trump supporters believe what you want to believe the other lot whether it's brexit voters the Conservatives they are wrong and you are right. I know you won't change your mind on the subjects but I at least can see both sides point of view and don't need to push my views down other people's throats because they don't agree.
It's called opinion Pete. Nobody is pushing anything down anybody's throat. I'm a remainer, but the democratic vote went to brexit, so i accept that. I won't however accept it was a good idea, and I believe the British people were lied to by the elite.
Less than a week into it and there are problems all over. EU companies refusing to deliver to us. People in Ireland can't get goods shipped there. Fishing boats from Eire being chased out of Scottish waters. British trawlers being impounded. Fishermen who voted Brexit are up in arms.
We will be told it's teething problems but I can only see it getting worse.
I think there should be a United Ireland keeping part of it in the UK cost a lot of lives both sides of the water.
You are nearly as bad as the trump supporters believe what you want to believe the other lot whether it's brexit voters the Conservatives they are wrong and you are right. I know you won't change your mind on the subjects but I at least can see both sides point of view and don't need to push my views down other people's throats because they don't agree.
So you’re quite happy to ignore the facts then Pete and accuse people who think Brexit is a bad idea of being Trumpist!
As for pushing my views down other people’s throats, I’m merely responding. You were the first to comment. When you give your opinion it’s not pushing views down other people’s throat, but when others REPLY they are. That’s hypocrisy.
If you don’t like people disagreeing with you, don’t post on a controversial subject.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
You’re really a prize dingbat aren’t you. The sacrifice of drawing a cross on a bit of paper. How future generations will marvel. 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Heroic in the sense we were told there would be mass job losses and an immediate recession in the event of a leave win. Heroic in the sense we ignored the threats from the bankers, the globalists, the elites, the media even our own government and their propaganda leaflets everything and the kitchen sink was thrown at us.
What a proud day, a day I will never forget when 17,410,741 of my fellow heroic Countrymen finally stood up to the elites and said... NO we are leaving your corrupt union and we are taking our country back 🇬🇧
The only lie by the elite was on the vote join the EU. It was put as this " Do you want to trade with the EU, 20 miles away having a free trade agreement, or continue as we are trading with the commonwealth etc., who are 1,000's miles away.
No Maastricht treaty, no common currency, no Lisbon treaty no EU Parliament or politicians. I could go on and on about what happened after we joined, which at the time of the vote was not suggested; it was just a trading union. I like many voted to join "No brainer". Then the goalposts widened and heightened and guess what we never got to vote on that.
Red blue and yellow politicians all conned us. It was a democratic vote but the subject matter was well and truly hidden until decades later. I voted to leave but again what I voted for has not happened.
The choice was "do you want to stay or leave". I do not recall being asked to vote on any deal! It was leave with no conditions attached. Again the Westminster machine changed what we voted for. The elite has conned us once more in the name of democracy.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Personally, I really enjoyed spending 30 minutes today filling in the customs declarations for the orders we sent to EU customers. Heaven only knows what I'd have done with the extra 25 minutes of time if we'd remained in the EU! Nothing productive, I'm sure.
From April, I'll similarly appreciate filling in customs declarations when sending orders to customers in Northern Ireland (part of our own country at present, don't forget). More time spent during which I don't need to worry about being productive. At busy times of the year, I'm looking forward to working additional time in the evenings, filling in the customs declarations. Who needs free time, eh?
Still waiting to see if the coming devaluation of the pound will affect our business with our many EU customers in a positive manner. The devaluation after the Brexit vote certainly didn't seem to. Sales were impacted despite the fact that our goods became cheaper for customers, probably due to the negative sentiment. It doesn't help that we also sell a fair amount of stuff from EU countries which is going to become more expensive for us as well.
But, hey, "Sovereignty!", "Fish!", "Up Yours, Delors" etc etc.
It will be interesting to see which (if any) of the benefits promoted by those running the various 'Leave' campaigns actually come to fruition...
Yeah I'd just like to echo the above - since returning to work this week I've had to spend far too much time paying attention to customs requirements and discovering things like DHL planning to charge us an extra £4.50 Brexit induced customs surcharge every time we want to send something to Europe. Can someone who is pro Brexit please explain to me how these needless additional costs we have to now incur are meant to be good for UK based businesses? Thanks!
Heroic in the sense we were told there would be mass job losses and an immediate recession in the event of a leave win. Heroic in the sense we ignored the threats from the bankers, the globalists, the elites, the media even our own government and their propaganda leaflets everything and the kitchen sink was thrown at us.
What a proud day, a day I will never forget when 17,410,741 of my fellow heroic Countrymen finally stood up to the elites and said... NO we are leaving your corrupt union and we are taking our country back 🇬🇧
So what you mean then is “not heroic”.
It’s not frigging World War II. It isn’t even heroic in the sense that the Charge of the Light Brigade was heroic. Nothing heroic about ignoring people who know what they’re talking about.
Taking our country back! You’re 70 years too late for that (Suez for example). We found out that exactly how independent we are when Joe Biden phoned Boris to tell him not to have a customs border between NI and the Irish Republic.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Personally, I really enjoyed spending 30 minutes today filling in the customs declarations for the orders we sent to EU customers. Heaven only knows what I'd have done with the extra 25 minutes of time if we'd remained in the EU! Nothing productive, I'm sure.
From April, I'll similarly appreciate filling in customs declarations when sending orders to customers in Northern Ireland (part of our own country at present, don't forget). More time spent during which I don't need to worry about being productive. At busy times of the year, I'm looking forward to working additional time in the evenings, filling in the customs declarations. Who needs free time, eh?
Still waiting to see if the coming devaluation of the pound will affect our business with our many EU customers in a positive manner. The devaluation after the Brexit vote certainly didn't seem to. Sales were impacted despite the fact that our goods became cheaper for customers, probably due to the negative sentiment. It doesn't help that we also sell a fair amount of stuff from EU countries which is going to become more expensive for us as well.
But, hey, "Sovereignty!", "Fish!", "Up Yours, Delors" etc etc.
It will be interesting to see which (if any) of the benefits promoted by those running the various 'Leave' campaigns actually come to fruition...
You was one of the most vocal on here who said we would not get a deal.
So instead of moaning you have got more work to do think of this. Be thankful you have a job and if you spend less time on here you will manage your extra work easily .
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
You was one of the most vocal on here who said we would not get a deal.
So instead of moaning you have got more work to do think of this. Be thankful you have a job and if you spend less time on here you will manage your extra work easily .
If that doesn’t sum up the Brexit mentality I’m not sure what does. A pensioner who’s enjoyed all the benefits of EU membership for the last 40 years telling someone they’re lucky to have a job (for how much longer is anyone’s guess) after voting to make that job less productive and the company less competitive.
We are truly blessed to have such caring generations come before us.
Sorry if I come across a bit grumpy but there are a few on here who are saying how bad it's is already and will only get worse.
Guys we are in the middle of a pandemic half the country have not been to work half the year yet we are still here.
You do not know and neither do I If we will make a success of this.
But
One thing for sure we not know for a year a so when things have returned to some normality whether we are better off out of we should have stayed in. I will not comment on the subject until then when I will say I told you we would be alright. The same as I told you we would get a deal and we did So on this subject it's Pexit for now.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
When I was a lad we exported and exporters filled in forms by hand using ink. No computers, no laptops, no tablets or mobile phones to record data on and low and behold the system worked. The country sold goods abroad, no problem. Now we have technology to replace all this form filling by ink. Click a button and names address's etc. are instantly filled in; however the positive is a person doing this does have a job; and more could be employed to assist the clicking of buttons!
You may also like to bare in mind the more important issue of our health, life or death. Thanks to Brexit we started the vaccination program before our ex EU members. So as far as I am concerned fill in the forms and keep me alive.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
When I was a lad we exported and exporters filled in forms by hand using ink. No computers, no laptops, no tablets or mobile phones to record data on and low and behold the system worked. The country sold goods abroad, no problem. Now we have technology to replace all this form filling by ink. Click a button and names address's etc. are instantly filled in; however the positive is a person doing this does have a job; and more could be employed to assist the clicking of buttons!
You may also like to bare in mind the more important issue of our health, life or death. Thanks to Brexit we started the vaccination program before our ex EU members. So as far as I am concerned fill in the forms and keep me alive.
Just more garbage, absolutely reams of it. For a start, you’re wrong on the assertion that Brexit sped up the vaccination programme (which the Tories are fuccking up) -
Secondly, what happened when you were a lad is irrelevant. The world has moved on, you may wish to observe it for yourself at some point. You’ve just had someone tell you they spent 30 mins filling out paperwork they didn’t need to last month. If they do that everyday it’s 130 hours a year - or about 3 & a quarter weeks - they’re doing something that didn’t need doing. Over 3 weeks a year wasted when they could have been doing something more productive, putting more into the economy, growing the business etc.
The entitlement just oozes out of your post. “Fill in the forms, keep ME alive”. So screw everyone else, your businesses, you personally, your families & communities - just keep my haggard old shell rattling around for a few more years. You’ll quickly find that you are of little concern, except where the govt can squeeze every last penny out of you, and will be at the back of the queue. Maybe people will be too busy filling in forms to be bothered about keeping you alive.
Firstly Ska I was making a comparison not a statement.
Secondly You seem to think, from your comments, that money is the be all of everything and human life is nothing. In other words you have contempt for human life and place wealth and money before life. Given this you must have very little respect for human life which obviously must include your own!
Lastly Ska YOU will also, one day, may be a "haggard old shell rattling around" and may just want some help, help to feed yourself, help to breath, help to have as normal a life as possible having paid all your due's and demands to which ever governments wants your money. Or there is an alternative for you Euthanasia.
Grow up and respect the views of others.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
If that doesn’t sum up the Brexit mentality I’m not sure what does. A pensioner who’s enjoyed all the benefits of EU membership for the last 40 years telling someone they’re lucky to have a job (for how much longer is anyone’s guess) after voting to make that job less productive and the company less competitive.
We are truly blessed to have such caring generations come before us.
Tell me how caring are you to the elderly and why should Pete care so much about you. He has children and grandchildren who will benefit from being out of the EU there will be a few other countries following what a success we made of it and will follow suit.
Laughable this, loads of old illegitimates telling people who are literally offering up tangible first hand evidence of the inefficiencies and costs resulting from leaving the EU (and don't get me started on all the actual benefits we've lost related to freedom of movement ffs) that they don't know what they're on about, while carping on about some nonsensical future scenario where all these issues will be magically mitigated and somehow we'll all be better off. Lads, please do explain how this great independent future is going to emerge from the current excrement show, i'm all ears for an explanation beyond you all attempting to vibe it into existence.
Just a £3.50 "customs clearance charge" from DPD for despatches to the EU, so a bit less than DHL. It will still cost us a few grand more each year, however. And this on top of a hefty hike in Royal Mail prices on 1st January.
Pete, not sure if you noticed, but I made my post around 12.30am. Believe it or not, I wasn't in the office in the early hours of the morning, although I have been on occasion in the past. More so in the future is likely. Still, what do you care, eh? I barely look at the Fishy these days. Nothing much to say about the football at the moment and I couldn't be bothered with the whole Fenty/Consortium melodrama so there's little point.
I don't recall saying we wouldn't get a deal, just not the one promised us by the Brexiteers. It seems to have escaped your attention that the deal we did sign isn't a very good one and doesn't contain most of what was promised. The fishing industry was sold down the river as expected, of course, but the financial services sector (a much, much bigger contributor to our economy) also lost much of its access to the EU market. The companies themselves have moved a lot of their business to European countries, of course, so they'll be alright, but the tax generated from their profits won't be going to HMRC. At least the manufacturing sector (such as it is) seems to have a reasonable side of the deal. Will we invest in manufacturing because of this? History would indicate probably not. The fact that the government is pushing on to create freeports as quickly as possible indicates almost certainly not. They want us to become a tax haven for the wealthy in Europe. That's where the big bucks is for the people who funded the Leave campaigns, well, the ones who haven't buggered off to Monaco already.
Here's one of the first things which looks like it will deviate from EU regulations. Gene editing for crops and livestock (another way of saying GM):
Now, I'm not against this per se if properly regulated and absolutely nailed down as far as safety and sustainability goes, but with the current bunch of jokers in charge, do you really think this will be properly regulated? Also note that our largest market, the EU, won't be taking any of these GM products as things stand so anything produced will have to be for internal consumption - again, not necessarily a bad thing, but it limits the market for the goods.
I will be interested to see if somebody rises to Chrisblor's challenge above to list all the ways in which we will now prosper now we're out of the EU, our nearest market which also happens to be the world's largest, wealthiest and most successful trading bloc?
It's getting better. DPD, one of Europe's largest courier services, have 'paused' some of their services for packages going to the EU until next Wednesday at the earliest. Apparently 20% of customers are providing the incorrect or incomplete customs information and documentation so their packages are being returned and there are also large delays at the ports.
Good job it is a relatively quiet time of the year, or we'd have piles of packages waiting to be sent. More Brexit fun.
4 +years since the vote and one of Europe's largest courier is not prepared for Brexit. Doesn't say much for there planning. If GPS went down would they cope? I hope someone in the HQ makes plans for eventualities that might happen.
Is there any hope for the hopeless?
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Laughable this, loads of old illegitimates telling people who are literally offering up tangible first hand evidence of the inefficiencies and costs resulting from leaving the EU (and don't get me started on all the actual benefits we've lost related to freedom of movement ffs) that they don't know what they're on about, while carping on about some nonsensical future scenario where all these issues will be magically mitigated and somehow we'll all be better off. Lads, please do explain how this great independent future is going to emerge from the current excrement show, i'm all ears for an explanation beyond you all attempting to vibe it into existence.
You really are a very unpleasant young man I bet your elderly parents are very proud of you.
Have a little respect just because other people don't agree with your view. That's all it is your view you are not right or wrong we will not know if leaving was a good thing or not for at least 2/3 years at least.
Why should anyone respect your view? He’s just told you, as others have, why the situation is bad (and unlikely to get better) and you keep ignoring him. There isn’t an automatic right to have everyone respect you, I was always taught that respect was earned.
4 +years since the vote and one of Europe's largest courier is not prepared for Brexit. Doesn't say much for there planning. If GPS went down would they cope? I hope someone in the HQ makes plans for eventualities that might happen.
Is there any hope for the hopeless?
It may have been 4 years but no one knew what the deal was until after Christmas or whether there would even be a deal, it will take time for all firms to adjust. The deal we have is rubbish, I say that as someone who voted to leave. Would rather have not bothered than have this mess
You really are a very unpleasant young man I bet your elderly parents are very proud of you.
Have a little respect just because other people don't agree with your view. That's all it is your view you are not right or wrong we will not know if leaving was a good thing or not for at least 2/3 years at least.
Nah i'm absolutely sick to death of older, generally financially comfortable Brexit voters, who've benefitted significantly from EU membership throughout their adult lives, waving away tangible examples of why Brexit isn't good actually, and being completely unable to explain what these future benefits are supposed to be and how they'll be realised. The harsh economic reality of global free trade means the bigger side always wins in trade negotiations. We've crippled our economy, and many of our rights (i'd have been nice to have the option to move to Europe if I wanted to - you've copulated that for us now), for what? A low odds punt on things being 'better' in some unspecified way a couple of years down the line based on a load of lies spun by some rich duplicitous posh illegitimates who've shorted the excrement out of the British economy and spent the last 4 years moving all their money and business operations outside of the UK. Why should I be pleasant to people who are still trying to tell me this is a good thing?
Tell me how caring are you to the elderly and why should Pete care so much about you. He has children and grandchildren who will benefit from being out of the EU there will be a few other countries following what a success we made of it and will follow suit.
Haha very good,this did make me laugh. I presume this is a wind up or are you delusional?
Even JRM estimates:
According to one of the most prominent Brexiters, Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, we should see the benefits of Brexit in about half a century. “We won’t know the full economic consequences for a very long time,” he said. “The overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years.”
And an example today:
"Boris Johnson was said to have swerved the topic of Brexit impact in a call with more than 200 business leaders earlier this week.
“It was a meaningless call, it was all mottoes – we are going to build back business better, build back business greener – and a few patsy questions about how much better it would be, nothing about the realities of Brexit and Covid hitting us all hard,” said one business leader."
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
Nah i'm absolutely sick to death of older, generally financially comfortable Brexit voters, who've benefitted significantly from EU membership throughout their adult lives, waving away tangible examples of why Brexit isn't good actually, and being completely unable to explain what these future benefits are supposed to be and how they'll be realised. The harsh economic reality of global free trade means the bigger side always wins in trade negotiations. We've crippled our economy, and many of our rights (i'd have been nice to have the option to move to Europe if I wanted to - you've copulated that for us now), for what? A low odds punt on things being 'better' in some unspecified way a couple of years down the line based on a load of lies spun by some rich duplicitous posh illegitimates who've shorted the excrement out of the British economy and spent the last 4 years moving all their money and business operations outside of the UK. Why should I be pleasant to people who are still trying to tell me this is a good thing?
If you read my post again I did not say you were wrong what I did say was you were unpleasant calling an elderly person a old illegitimate.
Well Ska from your comments you'll have a lot to do in life to earn some respect. Codcheeeky they should have prepared for the very worst and then they would have been ready.
You should be pleasant Chrisblor because we older generation have been through the last near 50 years realising that the politicians of our youth conned us into voting for the EU. We voted for a trading agreement , not a Lisbon or Maastricht treaty or any other treaty. We did not vote for a European parliament, European Commissioners or to hand over our fishing rights so the European fishermen could dredge our waters dry of fish and take away any chance of a decent trawler fleet for Grimsby. I could go on and on about what we lost.
The old saying is that you do not know what you've got until you've lost it. That is why you should respect the older people of which all of you will be one day. Been there done it got the medal and regretted. Experience is king, opinions and thoughts mean nothing.
As for financially better of why didn't our so called European friends make our pensions like those of Germany etc.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
I'm still waiting for the run down of just how we are going to benefit from leaving the world's largest, wealthiest and most successful trading bloc, a move which puts up enormous barriers to trading with our nearest neighbours. Some of which have been mentioned in this thread.
I get the 'sovereignty' argument about having full self-determination within the bounds of our political system. I don't think it held much more water than a sieve as we did elect the MEPs who effectively chose the commission members, but I suppose that was arguable to some extent. The funny thing, of course, was that our MEPs were elected using PR so it was actually much more representative of the votes cast than our own FPTP parliamentary system where most votes count for absolutely nothing!
Ultimately, the economic arguments for leaving the EU seem to depend on a magic asterisk which assumes that things will now get better for some unspecified reason. It's what the incompetents currently in government are attempting to promote every time they open their mouths with pathetic boosterism, despite the ongoing shitshow with the pandemic.
As for financially better of why didn't our so called European friends make our pensions like those of Germany etc.
You do realise that the EU doesn't pay British (or German) pensions, right? You're surely just trolling for a response?
The UK government of the day decides how high pensions are (or aren't) and the way pensions are calculated is dependent of the system used in each country. Absolutely nothing to do with the EU at all. How bizarre that someone should try to use it as a benefit of Brexit/attack on the EU.
You do realise that the EU doesn't pay British (or German) pensions, right? You're surely just trolling for a response?
The UK government of the day decides how high pensions are (or aren't) and the way pensions are calculated is dependent of the system used in each country. Absolutely nothing to do with the EU at all. How bizarre that someone should try to use it as a benefit of Brexit/attack on the EU.
This is the main problem in a packet of post nuptial problems.
Most of the problems in the UK in the past 48 years have not been caused by the EU.
They have not been caused by Turks queuing up to smash up the white cliffs of Dover.
They haven’t even been caused by Mrs Syed at number 34, who forgot to take her bins out on 27 July - as noted by Neighbourhood Watch, and forever she shallt be admonished.
It is you, me and the inept prime ministers we keep electing (plus the fact that over the past 150 years we have been on a downward spiral, economically, culturally and morally).
The EU had / has nothing to do with it.
Our only hope is luck, Paul Hurst and the possibility that Poojah runs for PM in 2024
You do realise that the EU doesn't pay British (or German) pensions, right? You're surely just trolling for a response?
The UK government of the day decides how high pensions are (or aren't) and the way pensions are calculated is dependent of the system used in each country. Absolutely nothing to do with the EU at all. How bizarre that someone should try to use it as a benefit of Brexit/attack on the EU.
I was responding to Ska "i'm absolutely sick to death of older, generally financially comfortable Brexit voters, who've benefitted significantly from EU membership". to make the point that British pensioners have not benefited from the EU as he states. You have taken my comments out the context of my reply. Not trollig for any response, just making a valid point.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
I was responding to Ska "i'm absolutely sick to death of older, generally financially comfortable Brexit voters, who've benefitted significantly from EU membership". to make the point that British pensioners have not benefited from the EU as he states. You have taken my comments out the context of my reply. Not trollig for any response, just making a valid point.
You measured the benefits of being in the E.U. in terms of state pension provision which has now been pointed out to you is erroneous.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
Well Ska from your comments you'll have a lot to do in life to earn some respect. Codcheeeky they should have prepared for the very worst and then they would have been ready.
You should be pleasant Chrisblor because we older generation have been through the last near 50 years realising that the politicians of our youth conned us into voting for the EU. We voted for a trading agreement , not a Lisbon or Maastricht treaty or any other treaty. We did not vote for a European parliament, European Commissioners or to hand over our fishing rights so the European fishermen could dredge our waters dry of fish and take away any chance of a decent trawler fleet for Grimsby. I could go on and on about what we lost.
The old saying is that you do not know what you've got until you've lost it. That is why you should respect the older people of which all of you will be one day. Been there done it got the medal and regretted. Experience is king, opinions and thoughts mean nothing.
As for financially better of why didn't our so called European friends make our pensions like those of Germany etc.
The demise of the Grimsby trawler fleet which was based mainly around fishing off Iceland and into the White Sea had little to do with the E.U but everything to do with NATOs reaction to the threat to evict the Americans from their Icelandic base during the Second Cod War. Add to that the incompetence of the negotiators of the then Labour government and the greed of the trawler owners in their rush to pocket the scrappage monies and Grimsby was destined to go the way of many industries- a process accelerated under the "Blessed Margaret".
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
The demise of the Grimsby trawler fleet which was based mainly around fishing off Iceland and into the White Sea had little to do with the E.U but everything to do with NATOs reaction to the threat to evict the Americans from their Icelandic base during the Second Cod War. Add to that the incompetence of the negotiators of the then Labour government and the greed of the trawler owners in their rush to pocket the scrappage monies and Grimsby was destined to go the way of many industries- a process accelerated under the "Blessed Margaret".
I agree with you but we no longer have any trawlers in Grimsby, just a few seine netters or similar. What Maggie accelerated the EU finished off in one way or another.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
There are lots of reasons which have led to the situation these days, when hardly any fish at all is landed in Grimsby - almost nil in 2019. There was £8m of shellfish landed in Grimsby though, mainly crabs (non-quota species), caught off the Yorks/Lincs coast.
Others on this board will have more knowledge (I don't work in the sector, I just soak up all the data) but the Brexit deal on fishing does look poor - it adds up something like this:
Value of UK share of quota in UK waters: 2020: £827m 2026: £972m
Value of EU share of quota in UK waters: 2020: £580m 2026: £434m
Link:
Tweet 1342806871695101952 will appear here...
In theory there are more economic gains to be had if the government decides to strengthen the 'economic link' between the UK and its vessels. Currently a lot of foreign owned, uk-flagged and quota-holding vessels bring little economic benefit to the UK because they land and/or sell all their catch overseas, and have no UK crew. Example - in 2018 9000 tonnes of flatfish and whitefish was landed by 'UK' vessels in the Netherlands. A fair chunk of this will be UK quota sold from Grimsby to Dutch interests who set up UK companies and reflagged vessels to the UK, to fish the central and southern North Sea.
Johnson has backed his fisheries minister Victoria Prentis, after she admitted she did not read the Brexit deal when it was published on Christmas Eve because she was busy with a Nativity trail. She is facing calls to quit – but No 10 said the PM still had confidence in her.
This from the Independent today sums how important the fishing deal was to the fisheries minister, those pretending the fishing deal was anything but a capitulation are fooling themselves, Scottish fisher are now landing their catches in Denmark, fishing is only a tiny part of the economy and as many predicted it has been sold down the river
Johnson has backed his fisheries minister Victoria Prentis, after she admitted she did not read the Brexit deal when it was published on Christmas Eve because she was busy with a Nativity trail. She is facing calls to quit – but No 10 said the PM still had confidence in her.
This from the Independent today sums how important the fishing deal was to the fisheries minister, those pretending the fishing deal was anything but a capitulation are fooling themselves, Scottish fisher are now landing their catches in Denmark, fishing is only a tiny part of the economy and as many predicted it has been sold down the river
Yes but British fish.
Tweet 1349707738583093248 will appear here...
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
Nathalie Loiseau, France’s former Europe minister, tweeted on Thursday afternoon: “An MP who says the fish are happier because they are now British, a fisheries minister who admits she hasn’t read the agreement with the EU in her field: happily in Europe, we at least took fishermen seriously.”
As someone voted Brexit we have been sold a dud. I thought we would have a deal like Norway instead it's much worse,
Johnson has backed his fisheries minister Victoria Prentis, after she admitted she did not read the Brexit deal when it was published on Christmas Eve because she was busy with a Nativity trail. She is facing calls to quit – but No 10 said the PM still had confidence in her.
This from the Independent today sums how important the fishing deal was to the fisheries minister, those pretending the fishing deal was anything but a capitulation are fooling themselves, Scottish fisher are now landing their catches in Denmark, fishing is only a tiny part of the economy and as many predicted it has been sold down the river
It's usual for several of the larger Scottish vessels to land into Denmark in the first few weeks of the year, market prices there are usually high in January especially for whitefish species that aren't in such big demand in the UK like coley, whiting, hake etc. This doesn't tend to last into February though. I would guess Scottish landings will likely continue into Danish ports (which are as close as you can get to the Northern North Sea grounds and be within the EU) if the UK export disruption continues.
Good point about how fishing is a tiny part of the economy. I think Don Lister said the same about the fate of our distant water fleet in the 70s - it was too small for government to fight for. The industry has shrunk much further since those days.
Still can't send packages to Europe via DPD. It appears that there are problems with the alignment of the new UK customs system and the long-existing EU one. It's now 8 days without being able to despatch large parcels to the EU for us. Good job we've only had to send small packages under 5 kilos.
As for the fish, well, it's what everyone thought would happen. The funders of the Brexiteers used fishing rights as a prop to get what they wanted. Not enough money in fish for them to care one jot any longer.
Workers rights to be reduced as well? Wow, who'd have thought it with these wealthy, swivel-eyed right-wing loons running the show? I remember being amazed when Gove became a seriously influential Conservative politician after reading his drivel in The Times for years. I've yet to be convinced that Rees-Mogg is anything more than an elaborate performance artist pretending to be the worst Tory he can imagine.
They'll be an independent nation and back in the EU within 10 years.
Latest opinion poll for this May's Scottish Parliamentary elections forecasts...
SNP 72 seats CON 24 LAB 19 GRN 9 LDEM 5 Projected SNP majority of 15
Factor in that the Green party are pro-independence and you have a potential 81-48 split for pro-independence MSPs,
I can't wait to see Boris Johnson say there's no legitimate reason to hold another Scottish Independence Referendum if/when the SNP win a landslide.
Or indeed the Labour party whose official policy is to resist a new Independence referendum as stated by Sir Keir Starmer recently.
I don't suppose Labour party members will be too thrilled either at coming behind the Conservative party if those figures turn out to be true; its amazing how Labour have lost their Scottish heartlands.
Being a democrat myself I would certainly allow another referendum and let them become independent if the public so decide.
Or indeed the Labour party whose official policy is to resist a new Independence referendum as stated by Sir Keir Starmer recently.
I don't suppose Labour party members will be too thrilled either at coming behind the Conservative party if those figures turn out to be true; its amazing how Labour have lost their Scottish heartlands.
Being a democrat myself I would certainly allow another referendum and let them become independent if the public so decide.
Yeah, I'm not fussed myself. It's a choice for the Scottish people. And even if I was inclined to try and tell them to vote "No" I don't think I could think of a decent reason for them to stay in the Union.
They'll be an independent nation and back in the EU within 10 years.
I can't wait to see Boris Johnson say there's no legitimate reason to hold another Scottish Independence Referendum if/when the SNP win a landslide.
Scottish independence may happen (Johnson and co seem clueless about the union) and if it does, be prepared for fallout that surpasses Brexit
If an independent Scotland manages to reduce its deficit enough to be allowed to join the EU, wouldn't this end the UK internal market? Wouldn't it create a border between Gretna and Berwick that looks like the one that's just been created between the UK and the EU?
Scotland's exports to the rest of the UK are worth £51bn annually. Its annual exports to the EU are worth £16bn.
I'd say another Scots Indy Ref would be imminent, but the SNP leadership is about to either fall apart (after attempting to stitch up Salmond and failing miserably) or become wholly discredited by a Scottish establishment cover up. They'll still virtually sweep the board in the elections (Tories, Scottish Labour and LibDems have little to offer), but perhaps end up lacking the momentum they should have had. Can't see Sturgeon surviving what is coming up and I'd imagine most of the other senior SNPites are up to their necks in the whole thing as well.
Genuine question: how's the fishing industry in Grimsby at the moment?
I keep reading about the problems facing the shell fish companies, the biggest sector in UK fishing, but nothing about the processors of imported fish or any news about developing the UK fleet.
My ex-fishman, pro Brexit dad tells me things are booming. But, really?
There's a crooked street in Grimsby Town It's a well worn path I've travelled down Now there's ruin in my name, I wish i'd never got off the train And I wish I'd listened to the words you said.... ...Don't go down to Freeman Street Don't go down to Freeman Street You'll be lost and never found You can never turn around Don't go down to Freeman Street
Genuine question: how's the fishing industry in Grimsby at the moment?
I keep reading about the problems facing the shell fish companies, the biggest sector in UK fishing, but nothing about the processors of imported fish or any news about developing the UK fleet.
My ex-fishman, pro Brexit dad tells me things are booming. But, really?
From everything I've seen and heard it appears the industry is virtually on it's knees already. Red tape (paperwork etc.) and the cost of it mean that the small profit margins that already existed in the industry have been wiped out and some have already stopped going out to sea as they lose less money by just not bothering.
It probably hasn't helped that the Fishing Minister admitted that she didn't have the time to read the Brexit Trade Deal as she was too busy doing Nativity related activities. And then there's Rees-Mogg cracking jokes about the fish being happier because they are now British. All while the industry dies on it's bottom.
Genuine question: how's the fishing industry in Grimsby at the moment?
I keep reading about the problems facing the shell fish companies, the biggest sector in UK fishing, but nothing about the processors of imported fish or any news about developing the UK fleet.
My ex-fishman, pro Brexit dad tells me things are booming. But, really?
“It’s a lot easier to be fooled than to admit to being fooled” I think that’s accredited to Mark Twain but it’s certainly very true, no one likes to admit they were wrong, the deal on fishing is terrible, pretending otherwise which ever way you voted is not facing reality
Mr Johnson suggested that companies which have lost "genuine buyers" "through no fault of their own" would be able to apply for compensation, with the UK Government setting aside a £23m fund for such claims.
He also described the issues, which have seen boats tied up and seafood go rotten before reaching its destination, as "teething problems" and suggested they were due to "people not filling in the right forms".
Mr Johnson said: "There are problems at the moment caused by teething problems, people not filling in the right forms or misunderstandings.
"When it's not people's fault, of course we're going to compensate and help out and funds have been put in place to do that."
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
A British supporting broadcaster... UK clothes manufacturer’s may well prosper from the EU high tax and tariffs, with many brits now deciding to buy from UK based clothing company’s.
BBC.... Customers now forced to pay more for clothes because of Brexit.
We have a first past the post election,50% + will claim all the benefits are good. 50% - will moan about what we have lost.
50 odd years ago I voted to go into the 'Common market' a trading agreement FULL STOP. Nothing else was mentioned about politics etc. Those old enough will remember we dumped our trading agreements with the rest of the world for the 'common market'. We traded quite happily with rest rest of the world but had import/export taxes etc with the 'common market'. As politicians (red and blue) put it, do we trade with countries 20 miles away or 1,000's miles away, no brainer they said and away went the lambs.
I now voted to leave for one reason and one reason only. I voted to go into a free trading area and nothing else. I was never asked to vote on anything else, had I know at the time the very hidden agenda of the politicians at that time I would not have voted to in.
Having voted to leave I have been conned again, another hidden agenda not on the voting form. The question was 'Do you want to leave?' and in went my cross. So where did this 'Deal' business come from?
Their was nothing on the voting form about deals. It was LEAVE and nothing else. No deals, nothing about any various agreements with EU etc.
It doesn't matter if your favourite politician is red or blue they will all let you down. They have their own agenda for them and they cronies. One small example "MP's expense scandal'
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
A British supporting broadcaster... UK clothes manufacturer’s may well prosper from the EU high tax and tariffs, with many brits now deciding to buy from UK based clothing company’s.
BBC.... Customers now forced to pay more for clothes because of Brexit.
The BBC...
It's an impartial broadcaster. It's news service is impartial. Even during WWII it reported the news (FACTS) without prejudice.
It's isn't the role of the BBC to "support Britain". It's role is to inform, education and entertain.
It's an impartial broadcaster. It's news service is impartial. Even during WWII it reported the news (FACTS) without prejudice.
It's isn't the role of the BBC to "support Britain". It's role is to inform, education and entertain.
You must have rose tinted glass's.
Radio H is very biased to the north bank as is Look North. Both claim to represent a wide area but actually servre HULL. Incidentally have you noticed Mr Yorkshire Hudson's weather map which has that well known N.E.L.C./ East Yorkshire/Lincolnshire/ N.Lincs/ town/city on it SHEFFIELD. When you look on his other maps for other Look North programmes there is nowhere in Lincs. etc. is on it.
Impartial, the Beeb don't know the meaning.
Inform mean London news, they are dropping local services as a cost saving Education When know about the subject they talk about you realise they haven't the foggiest idea Entertain That went years ago, Dads Army, Steptoe etc. would be called prejudice today and might upset somebody
P.S. In WW2 They only broadcast what the Govt. let them. Censorship I believe.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Had we started a thread forty-odd years ago about the shortcomings of the EU we would be running into the millions of pages by now.
We democratically voted to stay in during the 70's and have been lied to ever since, as treaties were signed without us having a vote on the purpose and scope of the EU, which went much further into all aspects of our lives than we were told. I think some teething problems while things settle down pale into insignificance compared to that.
We democratically voted to leave, and have left, so let's see how it pans out in a few years.
Had we started a thread forty-odd years ago about the shortcomings of the EU we would be running into the millions of pages by now.
We democratically voted to stay in during the 70's and have been lied to ever since, as treaties were signed without us having a vote on the purpose and scope of the EU, which went much further into all aspects of our lives than we were told. I think some teething problems while things settle down pale into insignificance compared to that.
We democratically voted to leave, and have left, so let's see how it pans out in a few years.
Exactly. And leading brexiteer JRM said it could take 50 years to see any benefits......
Thing is, one or two people not understanding about paying import duty and taxes when ordering from the EU now we're out of the customs union is neither here nor there. It will be a drop in the ocean.
In comparison, the Bank of France governor says that €170 billion of assets and 2,500 finance jobs have transferred to Paris from London thus far. With more to come:
So, lost revenue on the taxes paid on profits from said assets year on year plus the earnings of those workers, their tax and expenditure, will be going into the French exchequer. Considering these workers are in the finance sector, probably a quarter of a billion a year or more? That's just France as well, of course. Ernst Young reckons that £1 trillion of assets have been moved to the EU since 2016. Rats leaving the sinking ship.
We've already heard that many companies in the finance sector (and elsewhere) have relocated to or opened up major operations in Dublin, Amsterdam and Frankfurt so that will be plenty more profits, assets and taxes moving out of the UK.
Also, the UK financial sector is living on borrowed time for now:
No passporting for services to the EU which will mean a lot more red tape to deal with. In the Graun article above, the Governor of the BoF mentioned that the EU countries are looking to form a financial union to replace the London clearing houses which are only currently going to be allowed to continue to operate for 18 months unless a deal can be agreed. The UK banks are not able to sell such a wide range of services due to the lack of equivalence agreements. All potentially something which can be resolved and negotiations have already begun, but it is in the EU's best interest to drag their feet somewhat. The more of the UK finance sector that relocates to the EU, the better for them. And they have the right to withdraw even the limited equivalence arrangements with 30 days notice. As the UK Government has already indicated they want us to become a tax haven, don't expect any favours to come our way. They've got us by the balls. We know it, they know it, our negotiators know it. Let's the negotiators can limit the damage to our financial sector as much as possible.
It's bad enough that we let our economy become so reliant on the financial sector. The fact that we then chucked them under the bus when the 'deal' was agreed is mind-boggling. I'd imagine quite a few folk stand to profit handsomely, however.
Still waiting for a list of the benefits of leaving the EU, other than the hand-wavy 'self-determination' stuff. I posted as much almost 2 weeks ago and it doesn't seem as though anybody has taken up the gauntlet yet.
We're getting a bit faster at entering the customs declaration data for EU sales but it's still going to take time which could be profitably used elsewhere. Remains to be seen how badly our business will be affected by the fact that EU customers are going to have to start paying VAT on deliveries and the delays that this will create (our goods are zero-rated in the UK, though not in most EU countries), though I understand that this is going to be a requirement for intra-EU sales later this year as well due to new EU regulations.
The people who will benefit most from our departure from the EU, will be people who are already stinking rich. Why do you think it was championed by people like JRM and IDS?
Thing is, one or two people not understanding about paying import duty and taxes when ordering from the EU now we're out of the customs union is neither here nor there. It will be a drop in the ocean.
In comparison, the Bank of France governor says that €170 billion of assets and 2,500 finance jobs have transferred to Paris from London thus far. With more to come:
So, lost revenue on the taxes paid on profits from said assets year on year plus the earnings of those workers, their tax and expenditure, will be going into the French exchequer. Considering these workers are in the finance sector, probably a quarter of a billion a year or more? That's just France as well, of course. Ernst Young reckons that £1 trillion of assets have been moved to the EU since 2016. Rats leaving the sinking ship.
We've already heard that many companies in the finance sector (and elsewhere) have relocated to or opened up major operations in Dublin, Amsterdam and Frankfurt so that will be plenty more profits, assets and taxes moving out of the UK.
Also, the UK financial sector is living on borrowed time for now:
No passporting for services to the EU which will mean a lot more red tape to deal with. In the Graun article above, the Governor of the BoF mentioned that the EU countries are looking to form a financial union to replace the London clearing houses which are only currently going to be allowed to continue to operate for 18 months unless a deal can be agreed. The UK banks are not able to sell such a wide range of services due to the lack of equivalence agreements. All potentially something which can be resolved and negotiations have already begun, but it is in the EU's best interest to drag their feet somewhat. The more of the UK finance sector that relocates to the EU, the better for them. And they have the right to withdraw even the limited equivalence arrangements with 30 days notice. As the UK Government has already indicated they want us to become a tax haven, don't expect any favours to come our way. They've got us by the balls. We know it, they know it, our negotiators know it. Let's the negotiators can limit the damage to our financial sector as much as possible.
It's bad enough that we let our economy become so reliant on the financial sector. The fact that we then chucked them under the bus when the 'deal' was agreed is mind-boggling. I'd imagine quite a few folk stand to profit handsomely, however.
Still waiting for a list of the benefits of leaving the EU, other than the hand-wavy 'self-determination' stuff. I posted as much almost 2 weeks ago and it doesn't seem as though anybody has taken up the gauntlet yet.
We're getting a bit faster at entering the customs declaration data for EU sales but it's still going to take time which could be profitably used elsewhere. Remains to be seen how badly our business will be affected by the fact that EU customers are going to have to start paying VAT on deliveries and the delays that this will create (our goods are zero-rated in the UK, though not in most EU countries), though I understand that this is going to be a requirement for intra-EU sales later this year as well due to new EU regulations.
So why do our press tell us large percentages of Italians, Germans, French, Poles, Hungarians etc. all want to do a Brexit in there own lands. There is also the matter of covid where we started vaccinations before the EU.
To me the EU is a self egoistic community of bureaucrats who are in the minority trying to manipulate the majority through misinformation for their own self ends.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
So why do our press tell us large percentages of Italians, Germans, French, Poles, Hungarians etc. all want to do a Brexit in there own lands.
Farage stood up in the European parliament shortly after the referendum and predicted a domino effect of countries leaving. Four and a half years on there is still no sign of it. Not one other country has elected a government advocating departure from the EU - even Le Pen and Orban have backed away from the idea of Frecit and Huxit (if that's a word).
So why do our press tell us large percentages of Italians, Germans, French, Poles, Hungarians etc. all want to do a Brexit in there own lands. There is also the matter of covid where we started vaccinations before the EU.
To me the EU is a self egoistic community of bureaucrats who are in the minority trying to manipulate the majority through misinformation for their own self ends.
Nonsense. We were still in the transition period and abiding by all EU rules and regulations when we started vaccinating people.
But I suppose the Brexit overlords have to make this pathetic claim now as shouting “fish” is off the table after what they (our government) have inflicted on the industry.
The truth is Brexit is a total disaster and people in every other EU country are looking at UK and realise how lucky they are.
I don’t blame you. I have compassion for the conned and contempt for the liars who fooled you.
So why do our press tell us large percentages of Italians, Germans, French, Poles, Hungarians etc. all want to do a Brexit in there own lands. There is also the matter of covid where we started vaccinations before the EU.
To me the EU is a self egoistic community of bureaucrats who are in the minority trying to manipulate the majority through misinformation for their own self ends.
You were obviously taken in by the Government quotes:
I sometimes wonder why people take as gospel anything the read labeled fact checkers! (Who checks the fact checkers?) And now we’ve got channel 4 fact checkers da....da! Only the most biased newscaster ever to air on British TV😂
I sometimes wonder why people take as gospel anything the read labeled fact checkers! (Who checks the fact checkers?) And now we’ve got channel 4 fact checkers da....da! Only the most biased newscaster ever to air on British TV😂
Quite embarrassing trying to argue otherwise,almost Trumpesque.
Still waiting for the response to this by another poster:
"Still waiting for a list of the benefits of leaving the EU, other than the hand-wavy 'self-determination' stuff. I posted as much almost 2 weeks ago and it doesn't seem as though anybody has taken up the gauntlet yet."
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
Quite embarrassing trying to argue otherwise,almost Trumpesque.
The fact we had access under pre- withdrawal doesn’t hide the fact that we still had to ask permission! But don’t be fooled into thinking we were completely free on an emergency vaccine’s as Ireland are now finding being denied the Oxford vaccine at the click of a dirty EU finger - https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s.....-brexit-19672792.amp
The fact we had access under pre- withdrawal doesn’t hide the fact that we still had to ask permission! But don’t be fooled into thinking we were completely free on an emergency vaccine’s as Ireland are now finding being denied the Oxford vaccine at the click of a dirty EU finger - https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s.....-brexit-19672792.amp
??
"The Facts
When the UK medicine regulator approved the use of the Pfizer vaccine, it made a decision that is available to all EU member states.
There is provision in European law, still in effect in the UK now, to allow temporary and limited use of a non-EMA approved vaccine (or other medicine) in limited cases such as to fight a pathogen or a nuclear incident."
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
The EU are doing their best for the members of their club, as you'd expect. We're not in the club any longer so, from the viewpoint of the Commission (who are getting a lot of flak from within the EU due to their handling of the vaccine deals), it will go well for them to play hardball and be seen to be trying to keep as many vaccines in the EU as possible. I think it's probably meant to be a negotiating ploy to ensure that they get plenty of the AZ vaccines from the UK in exchange for the Pfizer vaccines produced in the EU.
If the boot was on the other foot, you can absolutely guarantee that UK.Gov would have been doing the same.
However, they've certainly overreached as it's a real blunder to mess around with the Northern Ireland protocol out of the blue like this. I reckon it was intended as a negotiating ploy but they've only successed in enraging pretty much everyone in Ireland with the move and it wouldn't surprise me to see them row it back extremely quickly.
Ultimately, we need some of the Pzifer vaccine to complete the second dose for all of those already vaccinated and the EU need some of any vaccine to get on with things. I'd imagine there will end up being some sort of a fudged deal where they get a bit more of the AZ vaccine than we get the Pfizer vaccine coming the other direction.
An absolute disasterclass in diplomacy. Seems to have been a decision taken by an individual without consulting anyone else. Wonder if any world leaders (possibly newly elected) had a word with NI and GFA involved? Not sure the EU want the AZ vaccine now that the great scientific minds of Macron and the German Govt have questioned the testing either. Weird tactics all round.
The only thing I can imagine is that they must have become absolutely convinced that the pharmaceutical companies are surreptitiously shifting vaccines out of the EU factories to sell elsewhere in the world (where higher prices have been agreed). The Belgians inspected documents at the Pfizer factory today (or was it yesterday?) as well. It's the only thing that seems to explain the pumped up rhetoric and badly-judged actions taken by the Commission over the past couple of days.
I wonder if we'll ever find out what really happened here?
If the article is accurate, the EU were basically much too cautious about supporting the production of the vaccines for the sake of just a few billion Euros which is an absolute drop in the ocean for the economic bloc that side. Hence, they are suffering more with delays we're seeing now due to lower yields from the AZ/Pfizer vaccines.
Mind-boggling that they didn't just take a bit of a gamble (as did the UK and the US) and push some money to get the show on the road much sooner. It actually seems as though it's one thing that our government got right despite their many failures in other areas.
If the article is accurate, the EU were basically much too cautious about supporting the production of the vaccines for the sake of just a few billion Euros which is an absolute drop in the ocean for the economic bloc that side. Hence, they are suffering more with delays we're seeing now due to lower yields from the AZ/Pfizer vaccines.
Mind-boggling that they didn't just take a bit of a gamble (as did the UK and the US) and push some money to get the show on the road much sooner. It actually seems as though it's one thing that our government got right despite their many failures in other areas.
Fair play Maringer! Gritted teeth no doubt but even you can’t defend the indefensible. They’ve dropped their guard showing all the Nazi credentials I and many others have been saying for many years. Surprised the other fishy Remainers are so quite today because if Trump had behaved like this they’d of been frothing at the mouth to get on here.😄
The EU is lashing out because it is becoming more apparent that they are a bloated, slow-moving relic, and more and more people are seeing them for what they are - unreliable bullies.
The noble aims when the project started have evaporated into a culture of mismanagement, bloated bureaucracy, power struggles and ludicrous expenditure for those with their noses in the trough.
The British people had the good sense to say thanks, but no thanks.
The club is so mismatched, where a lot of members have not put any money into the project but are fed handouts; that cannot possibly work in the longer term, can it? There are already riots in some EU capitals as they realise the failings, and more and more countries will start to express their disquiet when the freebies start to dry up.
Fair play Maringer! Gritted teeth no doubt but even you can’t defend the indefensible. They’ve dropped their guard showing all the Nazi credentials I and many others have been saying for many years. Surprised the other fishy Remainers are so quite today because if Trump had behaved like this they’d of been frothing at the mouth to get on here.😄
You misread my posts. They made an error with the delay in signing the deal (though they've ordered 400 million doses of the AZ vaccine alone) and have been unlucky enough that both the AZ and Pfizer production has encountered problems.
If the boot was on the other foot we would be reacting in exactly the same way to try and get as many vaccines for our citizens as possible, whatever the rights or wrongs. Mentioning Nazis is flipping stupid.
The EU is lashing out because it is becoming more apparent that they are a bloated, slow-moving relic, and more and more people are seeing them for what they are - unreliable bullies.
The noble aims when the project started have evaporated into a culture of mismanagement, bloated bureaucracy, power struggles and ludicrous expenditure for those with their noses in the trough.
The British people had the good sense to say thanks, but no thanks.
The club is so mismatched, where a lot of members have not put any money into the project but are fed handouts; that cannot possibly work in the longer term, can it? There are already riots in some EU capitals as they realise the failings, and more and more countries will start to express their disquiet when the freebies start to dry up.
You're saying they are bullies, but fundamentally, they signed a deal which they thought entitled them to these vaccine doses - note, the contract released can be read either way. There is a mention of EU vaccines including those produced in the UK in this context so it is entirely understandable that they think they should be getting some of those when they've paid for them.
However, it was an error for the Commission to take so long to seal the deal and I'd imagine that the EMA could have authorised the AZ vaccine more quickly as well, had they so desired. The problem, I expect, is that they were quite happy with the way things were going until the new UK variant emerged right at the end of last year. With increased transmissibility of around 50%, the pandemic suddenly became much more difficult to control.
Bear in mind that, had we remained in the EU, we could still have ordered and authorised the vaccines ourself - we just didn't join the EU procurement process.
Given the talk about ludicrous expenditure and noses in the trough, I'd imagine you've not been paying much attention to the UK government procurement over the past year? Hedging their bets and ordering large quantities of a variety of vaccines is probably about the only thing we've done right.
Towards the end of last year, NAO reported just how much was spent on PPE with companies with politicial ties to the Tories:
That's billions given to their chums, often for little in return. Not to mention the billions spent on a Test and Trace system which didn't work properly until recently.
You're saying they are bullies, but fundamentally, they signed a deal which they thought entitled them to these vaccine doses - note, the contract released can be read either way. There is a mention of EU vaccines including those produced in the UK in this context so it is entirely understandable that they think they should be getting some of those when they've paid for them.
However, it was an error for the Commission to take so long to seal the deal and I'd imagine that the EMA could have authorised the AZ vaccine more quickly as well, had they so desired. The problem, I expect, is that they were quite happy with the way things were going until the new UK variant emerged right at the end of last year. With increased transmissibility of around 50%, the pandemic suddenly became much more difficult to control.
Bear in mind that, had we remained in the EU, we could still have ordered and authorised the vaccines ourself - we just didn't join the EU procurement process.
Given the talk about ludicrous expenditure and noses in the trough, I'd imagine you've not been paying much attention to the UK government procurement over the past year? Hedging their bets and ordering large quantities of a variety of vaccines is probably about the only thing we've done right.
Towards the end of last year, NAO reported just how much was spent on PPE with companies with politicial ties to the Tories:
That's billions given to their chums, often for little in return. Not to mention the billions spent on a Test and Trace system which didn't work properly until recently.
The fundamental difference between us and the EU is that we can elect, and then replace the Government. If our government makes such a mess of everything as you imply then we will elect another government.
Von Der Leyen is the European Commission President and nobody had heard of her outside of the Von Der Leyen household until she was appointed.
It is a very basic point but one that the majority of us had noticed more and more - the bureaucratic and undemocratic EU having more and more say in our lives. Luckily we don't have to put up with it any longer - not that it seems to have registered with Von Der Lyen yet.
Von der Leyen - senior politician in the CDU (Merkel's party) which has been in charge of Germany for donkey's years. Think of them as being the equivalent of the Tories of the 1990s. A very well-known politician in Germany. Just because you haven't heard of her, doesn't mean she's an unknown.
The European Commission is, and always has been, appointed by the European Council. It has to be approved by the European Parliament (who can also dismiss it, if they aren't happy with the chosen). Brexit is done - there's no need to try and insinuate that the EC isn't subject to democratic procedures any longer, especially as it's not the case.
The bureaucracy of the EU is actually pretty small in comparison to any individual government. Around 30,000 in comparison to the UK which has around 400,000 civil servants. It's a nonsense to claim there is massive, unwieldy bureaucracy across the channel.
Perhaps if they'd had a few more employees, they wouldn't have made such a balls-up with the vaccines?
Democracy is an interesting word. I saw it in action when I voted to join the Common Market and again when I voted to leave the EU.
I didn't get a vote to move from the Common Market into the EU. I didn't get a vote for a European President. I didn't get a vote for a European Commission. I didn't get a vote for a European Council. I was not asked to vote to see if I wanted a European Parliament (with 2 Parliament buildings).
Democracy is an interesting word.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Von der Leyen - senior politician in the CDU (Merkel's party) which has been in charge of Germany for donkey's years. Think of them as being the equivalent of the Tories of the 1990s. A very well-known politician in Germany. Just because you haven't heard of her, doesn't mean she's an unknown.
The European Commission is, and always has been, appointed by the European Council. It has to be approved by the European Parliament (who can also dismiss it, if they aren't happy with the chosen). Brexit is done - there's no need to try and insinuate that the EC isn't subject to democratic procedures any longer, especially as it's not the case.
The bureaucracy of the EU is actually pretty small in comparison to any individual government. Around 30,000 in comparison to the UK which has around 400,000 civil servants. It's a nonsense to claim there is massive, unwieldy bureaucracy across the channel.
Perhaps if they'd had a few more employees, they wouldn't have made such a balls-up with the vaccines?
Ah the usual defence of its all ok because it is a rules-based organisation and we have protocols in place don't you know that keeps everything tickety boo.
And of course, we are democratic, it's just that we only turn to democracy when it suits us. Democracy is our middle name!
If you did not laugh you would cry.
The EU follows its rules apart from when it breaks them on a whim. Like on Friday night. It is so democratic it did not even consult the member states about something as important as the Irish protocol.
Not bureaucratic you say? Trying to order covid vaccines but having to go back and forth to 27 different countries each one haggling over quantity and price and having endless important meetings translated into 27 different languages, and then coming to a solution which leaves most of its populations at risk is what then?
They are so dogmatic their main goal is to protect the project at all costs; they abandoned a plan for the major countries in the EU to procure the vaccine and instead went round and round in circles with the 27 until a fudge was reached that has put peoples lives in danger.
Have you seen the Sunday papers? The whole world and his dog are rounding on the EU as a slow-moving bureaucratic monster. They showed their true colours on Friday and it will cause them lasting damage.
Thank God we left, but it is still interesting to see what the future brings for the EU, and whether it will survive in its present form.
When the EU finally crumbles and we’re all celebrating, we’ll look back at Brexit and the Vaccine grab as being at least 2 of the contributing factors, that helped to bring it down.
When the EU finally crumbles and we’re all celebrating, we’ll look back at Brexit and the Vaccine grab as being at least 2 of the contributing factors, that helped to bring it down.
How embarrassing.
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
Meanwhile we continue to bury our heads and point fun at the EU whilst the equivalent of £10k a day since the Bronze Age has been wasted on a track and trace system that still doesn’t work...and many billions more handed out to folk with no knowledge of PPE or anything do the sort but happen to be mates with tories...cronyism at its finest.
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
Meanwhile we continue to bury our heads and point fun at the EU whilst the equivalent of £10k a day since the Bronze Age has been wasted on a track and trace system that still doesn’t work...and many billions more handed out to folk with no knowledge of PPE or anything do the sort but happen to be mates with tories...cronyism at its finest.
Well, we can solve that, if enough people agree with you, by voting them out of office can't we?
So many so upset that Brexit proving to be the correct decision! That they’re even regurgitating old news damming their own country’s handling of the pandemic, in a pathetic attempt to try and counteract the EU shame.
It’s great being an independent country. Well at the price of giving up a chunk of territory. Abandoning those people in NI who consider themselves to be British are a small price to pay eh?
We’ll be even more independent when the Scots leave.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
It’s great being an independent country. Well at the price of giving up a chunk of territory. Abandoning those people in NI who consider themselves to be British are a small price to pay eh?
We’ll be even more independent when the Scots leave.
You should have stopped after the first sentence!
Of course, there are always difficulties in any direction of travel; I felt aggrieved when the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties were signed giving more and more power to the EU, but you have to take things in the round.
Brexit was, after all, a democratic process and vote, and that is the only way we can decide such things.
Regarding Scotland, if they wish for their future to be outside of the UK, and if they vote in favour that is what they should have. Whether the EU will want them as another non-contributing member is hard to judge.
I see those Europeans continue to cave in to our demands. Looks like this thing is going to work. If what you want is another nail in the coffin of the fishing industry.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Of course, there are always difficulties in any direction of travel; I felt aggrieved when the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties were signed giving more and more power to the EU, but you have to take things in the round.
Brexit was, after all, a democratic process and vote, and that is the only way we can decide such things.
Regarding Scotland, if they wish for their future to be outside of the UK, and if they vote in favour that is what they should have. Whether the EU will want them as another non-contributing member is hard to judge.
How many difficulties in the direction of travel does it take to make you accept the direction is taking you over a cliff?! Our country is breaking up. Own goal by British nationalists. Or was this an English nationalist revolution?
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Re Scottish nationalism. I believe the Scots have more spending per head than other parts of the UK. It's alright for them wanting independence but have they thought where there income is going to come from.
Renewables is the buzz word for energy so Oil is/will become dead, you can only drink so much whisky (It's good trying to help them) and what about the defence of the realm? Ship building is dead and tourism is not going to fill the coffers.
Wanting something and paying for something are two different ball games. Would the EU really want to saddle themselves with another country whose net contribution would be a deficit? I don't think so.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
According to failed German politician Ursula von der Leyen, who is quite naturally the EU Commission President, the "EU was not too slow in authorising the coronavirus vaccines, the UK had been too fast.."
And now Macron😂 I never thought I’d enjoy the EU but they’re are giving me more laughter than Friday night goggle-box at the minute. Careful as you pass Ursula von der Leyen on that humiliating climb down ladder😂
This is working out great for the fishing industry. Well done lads. 👏👏👏👏👏👏
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Having read the article it reminded me of a TV program our ex MP Austin Mitchell did in, I believe, in Boulogne. The program was about undersize fish and the harbour master whose job it was to check the fish.
The harbour master came up with ridiculous answers for the under size fish pointed out to him. How do I know where the fish were caught, how do I know if the fish were caught on the boat you showed me, they could have been left there by someone else, etc. I think you see what was happening. They weren't interest in a common EU fish and just wanted to carry on as normal.
Today I think this is a lot of sour grapes especially by the French, and their bureaucracy. Macron's polls seem to have taken a dive and he needs support from anybody especially the French fishing industry, who I read some weeks ago were not Macron supporters.
Our government could underwrite any loses our fishing industry makes until this mess is sorted out. Our government could also introduce the same type of bureaucracy on French imports, re proof of each grape variety in each bottle of wine and any other produce.
As we know from the migrant crisis the French are not keen on helping us at all. As the Yanks say 'we have a situation' which can be resolved, how I'm not sure.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
As David Stevens hauls up the nets on the Crystal Sea, his 24-metre trawler, he can see them writhing with john dory, dover sole, monkfish and plaice.
Having followed the shoals 20 miles south of the Isles of Scilly he’ll soon head back to Cornish waters to land his catch in Plymouth, where exporters are eager to supply their customers in Europe by the next day.
However, since Brexit the journey of a fish from British port to European plate has become increasingly protracted and risks sinking huge numbers of seafood businesses.
Having followed the shoals 20 miles south of the Isles of Scilly he’ll soon head back to Cornish waters to land his catch in Plymouth, where exporters are eager to supply their customers in Europe by the next day.
However, since Brexit the journey of a fish from British port to European plate has become increasingly protracted and risks sinking huge numbers of seafood businesses.
The price of fish has fallen by about 20 per cent in recent weeks as lorryloads of fresh seafood have got caught in a net of red tape trying to reach the Continent.
A range of new processes and paperwork is costing exporters precious time and money.
“At the moment we are being hit with extra costs while getting less for the fish and there are less people buying the fish because the delays at the borders are hitting customer confidence,” said Charlie Samways, of Samways Fish Merchants, a Dorset-based exporter.
To chart the complexities of the new export system The Times has spoken to businesses throughout the supply chain.
At sea There are three main ways in which fish caught in British waters can travel to the EU. They are either landed in a UK port and sold at auction; landed in a UK port and sold directly to a buyer, or they are caught by a UK registered fishing boat and landed in an EU port.
“For us fishermen very little has changed in what we do but when the fish get to the exporters it’s causing them a lot of extra work and headaches,” Stevens said as he spoke over an internet connection from the rolling Atlantic.
“The only thing I’ve changed is switching to five-day trips instead of six days to compensate for the delays at the borders. We want the fish to be as fresh as they would be without the delays but the only thing I can do is deliver fresh fish to the market,” he added.
As before, fishing boats have to record their catches by location, species and weight in a daily log book to ensure they are staying within the rules on quotas.
When they return to shore and the catch is landed in the evening at an auction house or to a direct buyer, the captain must complete a landing declaration recording the fish they have brought to land for the Marine Management Organisation (MMO). This was also done before Brexit.
Landing the catch Once the catch is landed it is graded by species, weight and quality and then a whole new series of certificates and processes created by Brexit kick into gear, running down the clock on delivery times and ratcheting up the cost to UK businesses.
The new catch certificates, export health certificates and customs agent packs are requirements that have been set and designed by the UK government to comply with EU rules, some of which were introduced into EU regulations under a British presidency.
Industry figures say that the UK government could have created a more integrated system instead of several standalone systems.
Before Brexit the exporters would simply buy the fish, process and package them and then transport them to their EU customers without any need for paperwork at the border.
“I don’t think in the last five years we were ever pulled over for inspection at the crossing,” Samways said. “It was like ‘nothing to declare’ at the airport.”
Samways Fish Merchants in Bridport, Dorset, has a £9 million turnover, of which 95 per cent is generated through exports. It buys fish from direct landings and at the three largest fish auctions in England, at Newlyn in Cornwall and in Brixham and Plymouth in Devon.
Since January 1, it now has to take its fish back to its processing unit and complete a catch certificate for each delivery being exported. This has to be validated digitally by the MMO. Each catch certificate has to record, as separate entries, detailed information about the species of fish, its weight and the boat that caught it.
“We have a lady in the office and she has to manually input that information onto a government website. It can take between one and two hours for a lorryload,” Samways said.
“For those like us transporting our own products in our own lorries it is easier than smaller exporters sharing a lorry with each other [a system called groupage], because then each delivery package needs their own certificates and if anything is wrong with one of them then the whole lorry gets held at the border.”
Samways, 25, who is the third generation involved in the family business, believes that catch certificates could become manageable if the process were digitised and more streamlined.
What appears less manageable are the export health certificates, which can run to about 50 pages per lorryload of fish.
These certificates have to be obtained from a local authority environmental health officer or even a certified vet for each delivery consignment. Much of the same data from the catch certificate has to be manually input again.
Additional checks are also carried out on the condition of the seafood as well as the packing, loading and sealing of the lorry. This is to certify that the fish being exported have met public health processes and the standards prescribed by the EU.
“It is yet another sheet that needs to be filled in by another member of staff. It’s maybe taking one to two hours for someone to complete,” Samways said. “A vet or environmental health officer has to come on site and manually ink stamp every page and sign and number every page. The ink has to be the correct colour.
“They also have to cross out every empty box that hasn’t been filled in. I have seen Vietnamese paperwork for exporting into the EU where the empty boxes have been digitally crossed out. Why haven’t we got that?”
The checks are done to notify the Animal and Plant Health Agency so that the certificate can be issued.
The fees charged by vets and health officers vary across the country and so do their interpretations of the requirements. The vet used by Samways charges about £450 for the three hours it takes to check per lorryload. They have heard of environmental health officers spending an hour doing the paperwork before leaving the exporter to finish the process on trust.
“We are asking people who are not specialists in seafood to sign off on seafood. It’s farcical,” Samways said.
Rodney Anderson, a consultant to the Plymouth fish auction and a former director of marine and fisheries at Defra between 2004 and 2008, said that Plymouth landed seafood from 350 boats and the bulk were smaller day boats under 20 metres.
“An exporter might buy from 20 different boats at one market and maybe from as many again at the two other markets in the southwest in a morning,” he said. “They will be buying a particular grade and species of fish. They will now end up with lots of bits of paper to process for each boat.”
Anderson said that the new system would favour the bigger fishing operators and exporters who buy and sell in single bulk quantities.
“The processes, costs and sheer inconvenience with documenting each consignment works against smaller boats and small processors,” he said.
Getting the deliveries on the road After the hours spent completing the catch certificate and the export health certificate, and with the seafood still on site at the processing unit, the exporter needs to send an export pack to their customs agent, who they are legally required to pay to get their delivery across the border. Samways have paid customs agents €3,600 for their 16 deliveries so far.
The UK government accepted last year that companies would need to employ 50,000 additional customs agents after Brexit but industry figures suggest that less than a quarter of that number had been trained by the time Britain left the single market.
Exporters and auction houses have suffered daily delays of six to 15 hours
“The agents input the information into their software and it produces a barcode which it now takes about an hour to receive back but it was about four hours at the start,” Samways said. “Once we have got our barcodes we get our Kent access pass to get to Dover for the crossing.”
The Kent access permit is designed to avoid tailbacks near Dover and the Eurotunnel by stopping HGV drivers entering Kent without the correct documentation to meet the requirements of EU border control.
The haulage company, which can be the exporter using their own transport, must then collect up all the correctly signed and stamped documents and certificates from each exporter and for each consignment.
Getting through the border Unexplained delays at the borders have been a nightmare for exporters and auction houses. They describe a complete lack of feedback from overwhelmed customs agents and the government as to why delays of six to 15 hours are happening on a daily basis.
“We are travelling into Dunkirk and essentially we have been held up every single day,” Samways said. “The only clarity we seem to have had is that the whole system was overwhelmed in the first four weeks of trading and they are now trying to train more customs officials and border staff to process this information faster and more efficiently.”
Goods have to pass through an EU-designated fisheries border control post, such as at Dunkirk and Boulogne-sur-Mer. The exporter must notify the post before arriving and have the correct customs documents to first get through Calais, which is not a border control post for seafood.
If a lorry containing a mix of exporters’ consignments has one mistake then all the consignments are held up.
Delivering to EU customers Once through the border control post the lorryload may need to be split up to reach different buyers and the right documentation must go with the right consignments.
“The wider you go into Europe with your deliveries the more transporters and connections you are missing if you are delayed at the border, and the bigger the knock-on effect,” Samways said.
Britain will not enforce customs checks on EU goods until July
“Our business also depends on backloads, where you come back with a lorry full of food and produce to import into the UK, but because of delays at the border we are missing our slots for the backload deliveries and having to bring back empty lorries or waiting a day to get another backload.
“EU companies are starting to ask: how can UK importers and exporters be relied upon if we don’t know when we are going to clear the border? It tarnishes the name of your businesses.”
Getting back to the UK Coming back through the UK border has proved seamless so far because the British government has given the EU until July before it starts enforcing customs checks.
“Even if they iron out these paperwork issues and the delays, once everything is working as well as it can, you still have all these extra burdens on time and cost,” Samways said.
“How are businesses operating on extremely fine margins supposed to accept all these additional costs? With Brexit we accepted there would be more costs and we would have to make sure our service was, if not the same, then better than pre-Brexit.
“But we are now asking customers to pay more for a worse service and not just slightly worse but much worse. We are saying you might get it Tuesday but it might be Wednesday or even Thursday.
“Our whole business plan for Brexit has been destroyed because we can’t give any clarity for our customers and we are not getting any clarity on what the hold-ups are.
“If we can get back to what it was like before and provide a premium service quickly to customers then I would like to think we could still be a profitable business.”
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
So Johnson is presiding over the Balkanisation of the UK, 30 years after Yugoslavia fell apart. We even had longer as a United country than them - at least they only had 70 years to get stitched together as one country. We’ve had 3 times as long in the case of NI and over 4 times as long with the Anglo-Scottish Union. That’s some going.
Way to go Boris. Are you sure you’re ancestor was Turkish and not Russian? I mean ‘Boris’ is a bit of a giveaway. Talk about sleeper operation. Your dacha awaits.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Having read the article it reminded me of a TV program our ex MP Austin Mitchell did in, I believe, in Boulogne. The program was about undersize fish and the harbour master whose job it was to check the fish.
The harbour master came up with ridiculous answers for the under size fish pointed out to him. How do I know where the fish were caught, how do I know if the fish were caught on the boat you showed me, they could have been left there by someone else, etc. I think you see what was happening. They weren't interest in a common EU fish and just wanted to carry on as normal.
Today I think this is a lot of sour grapes especially by the French, and their bureaucracy. Macron's polls seem to have taken a dive and he needs support from anybody especially the French fishing industry, who I read some weeks ago were not Macron supporters.
Our government could underwrite any loses our fishing industry makes until this mess is sorted out. Our government could also introduce the same type of bureaucracy on French imports, re proof of each grape variety in each bottle of wine and any other produce.
As we know from the migrant crisis the French are not keen on helping us at all. As the Yanks say 'we have a situation' which can be resolved, how I'm not sure.
It may well be pettiness by the French. But the rules apply whichever EU country we want to export to. And before this year they couldn’t do this no matter how much they wanted to. It’s a problem that we’ve created for ourselves. This didn’t exist before.
And it just proves the old saying. Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Those bloody leftist remoaner businessmen clearly know nothing about the business that they’re in. They should stop moaning about a messily 65% drop in exports to the EU.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
* we all know that Cornwall is a hotbed of Europhilia and was dead against Brexit. Don’t we? Eh?!
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Those bloody leftist remoaner businessmen clearly know nothing about the business that they’re in. They should stop moaning about a messily 65% drop in exports to the EU.
The drop in exports to the EU was partly due, obviously, to extra paperwork which as the article says will sort itself out over time, but the main reasons are the pandemic and the fact that companies stockpiled prior to Brexit in case of any difficulties including no deal.
The port of Dover has already announced that the volume of trade has been on an upward trajectory since early January when most of the problems occurred, and is already back to 90% of normal, even in these difficult times with covid and drivers needing a negative test.
Companies will always find a way to trade, and teething problems with the new arrangements will be ironed out and lucrative new markets to explore outside of the EU.
You could be forgiven for thinking the Guardian was putting an anti Brexit slant on things.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Chaos looking likely in Northern Ireland, Boris sold the unionists out completely after surprisingly lying again about the border. There are too many looking to start fighting again for the least reason and neither side are known for reasonableness. Hopefully a new peace can be sorted soon
I dont normally weight in on these kinds of conversations, but Brexit really cuts through to the hear of a lot of things in my life. my job is at the heart of an industry impacted by Brexit ( as are many here).....I married a French girl, I took French nationality (of which I am very proud)....
No doubt I'll get lots of red crosses for this, but here we go.....
Where I work we took the decisions 2 years ago because of Brexit to off-shore 80% of our business to the Netherlands and Romania for multiple reasons... all of which make this country weaker....
1. Financial passporting (we lost the right to provide very services to other EU countries). This is what people voted for (I refuse to say "people didn't know what they voted for" - therefore people actively voted to reduce access to our closest, richest, biggest market)
2. We can't get talented people to come to the UK - one of the biggest ways to generate money in a country is to employ highly talented people and they then pay taxes here... now those people dont want to come here . We employ people from all over the world - we dont care where they come from, they just need to be the best. A bit like NASA/google/apple.... English, French, Brazilian, Nigerian, Indian, Italy, - we dont care, we just want the best people. If they dont exist here, then we go elsewhere to find them. If those people wont come to the UK anymore then we need to find a place where they will go and work and that place is increasingly outside the UK. Those skills DO NOT EXIST in the UK in enough numbers- we can't just dig them out of the ground...
3. Instability- I deal with people from the US, Germany, France, Switzerland, Aus etc..... serious people. They will not touch the UK with a barge pole right now. When Italians say to me "the UK is instable" then you know you are in trouble. You cannot reasonably have a European headquarters in the UK when the UK is not in the EU - and trust me big companies LOVED having headquarters in the UK because culturally it is easier to move people to the UK than Germany or France....
4. These are long term cultural and structural issues - these are not teething issues. anyone who says "it'll wort itself out" is not dealing with the realities of high value add business and the flow of capital. the UK had amazing SOFT power.... the rule of law.... now all of these are viewed by non UK people as being worth nothing now.... the last 2 years in particular have seen the UK's reputation fall very badly. We are trying to keep open our UK offices but people are spooked and the Dutch love Brexit because they can say "het, come here, we speak English, great business environment, you can trust us"
5, You cannot rely on a mercantile economic model - that is what the 1600-1850s were about..... the world is integrated these days.
All the talk of fish is emotive and I get that, but the reality is 80% of the UK ecomomy is service related . The UK's clients are other highly developed A1 nations.... a vast majority of those A1 nations are in the EU. We can't go and sell wind turbines to Botswana and financial services to Peru.... or even fresh fish to France anymore.
Australia, NZ are a long way away.. .. Japan has a deal already with the EU that we can (at best) only replicate.... any nation in history has had the most trade with its neighbours. Our neighbours is the richest, biggest free trade area in the world..... and culturally we are closer than people think.
Culturally the Remain argument lost the debate on the emotive things such as access to live and work in 27 other countries, freedom of movement both ways. Go and let your kids study in Paris/Berlin/Madrid etc
I grew up in a poor family in Louth, but I was presented with small opportunities to work and live outside the UK with no need for a visa.... now (thankfully) I have kids who are half French who still have that right and that mind set to study and work and travel freely in the EU. My sister's kids no longer have that right.
I'm one of those so called metropolitan elites (according to Rees Mogg) even though I grew up in a council house in Louth..... My rant might go against some of the grain here (its ok to disagree folks) but I feel very strongly about the opportunities and freedom that my european status provided me.
None of the alternatives to EU membership were better......
I dont normally weight in on these kinds of conversations, but Brexit really cuts through to the hear of a lot of things in my life. my job is at the heart of an industry impacted by Brexit ( as are many here).....I married a French girl, I took French nationality (of which I am very proud)....
No doubt I'll get lots of red crosses for this, but here we go.....
Where I work we took the decisions 2 years ago because of Brexit to off-shore 80% of our business to the Netherlands and Romania for multiple reasons... all of which make this country weaker....
1. Financial passporting (we lost the right to provide very services to other EU countries). This is what people voted for (I refuse to say "people didn't know what they voted for" - therefore people actively voted to reduce access to our closest, richest, biggest market)
2. We can't get talented people to come to the UK - one of the biggest ways to generate money in a country is to employ highly talented people and they then pay taxes here... now those people dont want to come here . We employ people from all over the world - we dont care where they come from, they just need to be the best. A bit like NASA/google/apple.... English, French, Brazilian, Nigerian, Indian, Italy, - we dont care, we just want the best people. If they dont exist here, then we go elsewhere to find them. If those people wont come to the UK anymore then we need to find a place where they will go and work and that place is increasingly outside the UK. Those skills DO NOT EXIST in the UK in enough numbers- we can't just dig them out of the ground...
3. Instability- I deal with people from the US, Germany, France, Switzerland, Aus etc..... serious people. They will not touch the UK with a barge pole right now. When Italians say to me "the UK is instable" then you know you are in trouble. You cannot reasonably have a European headquarters in the UK when the UK is not in the EU - and trust me big companies LOVED having headquarters in the UK because culturally it is easier to move people to the UK than Germany or France....
4. These are long term cultural and structural issues - these are not teething issues. anyone who says "it'll wort itself out" is not dealing with the realities of high value add business and the flow of capital. the UK had amazing SOFT power.... the rule of law.... now all of these are viewed by non UK people as being worth nothing now.... the last 2 years in particular have seen the UK's reputation fall very badly. We are trying to keep open our UK offices but people are spooked and the Dutch love Brexit because they can say "het, come here, we speak English, great business environment, you can trust us"
5, You cannot rely on a mercantile economic model - that is what the 1600-1850s were about..... the world is integrated these days.
All the talk of fish is emotive and I get that, but the reality is 80% of the UK ecomomy is service related . The UK's clients are other highly developed A1 nations.... a vast majority of those A1 nations are in the EU. We can't go and sell wind turbines to Botswana and financial services to Peru.... or even fresh fish to France anymore.
Australia, NZ are a long way away.. .. Japan has a deal already with the EU that we can (at best) only replicate.... any nation in history has had the most trade with its neighbours. Our neighbours is the richest, biggest free trade area in the world..... and culturally we are closer than people think.
Culturally the Remain argument lost the debate on the emotive things such as access to live and work in 27 other countries, freedom of movement both ways. Go and let your kids study in Paris/Berlin/Madrid etc
I grew up in a poor family in Louth, but I was presented with small opportunities to work and live outside the UK with no need for a visa.... now (thankfully) I have kids who are half French who still have that right and that mind set to study and work and travel freely in the EU. My sister's kids no longer have that right.
I'm one of those so called metropolitan elites (according to Rees Mogg) even though I grew up in a council house in Louth..... My rant might go against some of the grain here (its ok to disagree folks) but I feel very strongly about the opportunities and freedom that my european status provided me.
None of the alternatives to EU membership were better......
Anyway - rant over. Roll on red crosses.
Merci et bon soir.
You make some very good points, but what you have forgotten is that when we voted to go into the 'Common Market', whic I did, it was for trading purposes only. That is what the politicians of the day said.
What we were not told is that there would be a European Parliament, Commissioners, a pathway leading to a United States of Europe. It is with this in mind that many, especially in my age group, voted to leave the now EU.
Trade with the EU, yes I don't mind and think it's a good thing. Be ruled by people in Brussels and the spare parliament in Strassburg NO.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
DB - you make an interesting point there and it is one I can have some sympathy with.
The classic question back is of course, which laws did you specifically object to?
I think the reality is that some form of political union at some level is necessary if you are to have a joined-up trading bloc the size of the EU..that of course brings with it the necessity to work across the chamber with other parties etc.
.. And remember, you can actually vote (or used to be able to vote) for your MEP, and that the UK govt actually did have the right to take unilateral decisions....
I think the UK had a great deal in that we did not have the Euro (a great decision to stay out of that)
Unfortunately the quality of reporting about the EU has been poisoned for 40 odd years with stories that were either not true or exaggerations... .
Its a fascinating debate that will rumble on for a generation or more - I do tell my kids they are living through fascinating times. I'm obviously highly pro-EU and on the wrong side of the result, but listening to opinions on both side of this is an engrossing experience (and sometimes horrifying as well!!)
I dont normally weight in on these kinds of conversations, but Brexit really cuts through to the hear of a lot of things in my life. my job is at the heart of an industry impacted by Brexit ( as are many here).....I married a French girl, I took French nationality (of which I am very proud)....
No doubt I'll get lots of red crosses for this, but here we go.....
Where I work we took the decisions 2 years ago because of Brexit to off-shore 80% of our business to the Netherlands and Romania for multiple reasons... all of which make this country weaker....
1. Financial passporting (we lost the right to provide very services to other EU countries). This is what people voted for (I refuse to say "people didn't know what they voted for" - therefore people actively voted to reduce access to our closest, richest, biggest market)
2. We can't get talented people to come to the UK - one of the biggest ways to generate money in a country is to employ highly talented people and they then pay taxes here... now those people dont want to come here . We employ people from all over the world - we dont care where they come from, they just need to be the best. A bit like NASA/google/apple.... English, French, Brazilian, Nigerian, Indian, Italy, - we dont care, we just want the best people. If they dont exist here, then we go elsewhere to find them. If those people wont come to the UK anymore then we need to find a place where they will go and work and that place is increasingly outside the UK. Those skills DO NOT EXIST in the UK in enough numbers- we can't just dig them out of the ground...
3. Instability- I deal with people from the US, Germany, France, Switzerland, Aus etc..... serious people. They will not touch the UK with a barge pole right now. When Italians say to me "the UK is instable" then you know you are in trouble. You cannot reasonably have a European headquarters in the UK when the UK is not in the EU - and trust me big companies LOVED having headquarters in the UK because culturally it is easier to move people to the UK than Germany or France....
4. These are long term cultural and structural issues - these are not teething issues. anyone who says "it'll wort itself out" is not dealing with the realities of high value add business and the flow of capital. the UK had amazing SOFT power.... the rule of law.... now all of these are viewed by non UK people as being worth nothing now.... the last 2 years in particular have seen the UK's reputation fall very badly. We are trying to keep open our UK offices but people are spooked and the Dutch love Brexit because they can say "het, come here, we speak English, great business environment, you can trust us"
5, You cannot rely on a mercantile economic model - that is what the 1600-1850s were about..... the world is integrated these days.
All the talk of fish is emotive and I get that, but the reality is 80% of the UK ecomomy is service related . The UK's clients are other highly developed A1 nations.... a vast majority of those A1 nations are in the EU. We can't go and sell wind turbines to Botswana and financial services to Peru.... or even fresh fish to France anymore.
Australia, NZ are a long way away.. .. Japan has a deal already with the EU that we can (at best) only replicate.... any nation in history has had the most trade with its neighbours. Our neighbours is the richest, biggest free trade area in the world..... and culturally we are closer than people think.
Culturally the Remain argument lost the debate on the emotive things such as access to live and work in 27 other countries, freedom of movement both ways. Go and let your kids study in Paris/Berlin/Madrid etc
I grew up in a poor family in Louth, but I was presented with small opportunities to work and live outside the UK with no need for a visa.... now (thankfully) I have kids who are half French who still have that right and that mind set to study and work and travel freely in the EU. My sister's kids no longer have that right.
I'm one of those so called metropolitan elites (according to Rees Mogg) even though I grew up in a council house in Louth..... My rant might go against some of the grain here (its ok to disagree folks) but I feel very strongly about the opportunities and freedom that my european status provided me.
None of the alternatives to EU membership were better......
Anyway - rant over. Roll on red crosses.
Merci et bon soir.
Never mind Brexit how you going to cope with Frexit 😀
DB - you make an interesting point there and it is one I can have some sympathy with.
The classic question back is of course, which laws did you specifically object to?
I think the reality is that some form of political union at some level is necessary if you are to have a joined-up trading bloc the size of the EU..that of course brings with it the necessity to work across the chamber with other parties etc.
.. And remember, you can actually vote (or used to be able to vote) for your MEP, and that the UK govt actually did have the right to take unilateral decisions....
I think the UK had a great deal in that we did not have the Euro (a great decision to stay out of that)
Unfortunately the quality of reporting about the EU has been poisoned for 40 odd years with stories that were either not true or exaggerations... .
Its a fascinating debate that will rumble on for a generation or more - I do tell my kids they are living through fascinating times. I'm obviously highly pro-EU and on the wrong side of the result, but listening to opinions on both side of this is an engrossing experience (and sometimes horrifying as well!!)
Viva la difference!
All of them.
The Commonwealth Countries didn't have one.
So the french farmers didn't burn our lamb, The french didn't use smaller net meshes to catch fish The port of Calais was not blocked several times European hauliers could use our roads without refueling in this country, so paying no taxes. Straight Bananas????
I could go on, and on,and on etc.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
The Commonwealth Countries don't have a unified single market and close trading relationship so that's a spurious comparison.
Did the EU decree that lamb reared in the UK should be burned? Of course not. That was French farmers breaking the law. See also intermittent blockage of ports. This has nothing to do with membership (or not) of the EU.
No idea about mesh sizes for fishing nets. Did French fishermen use illegally small mesh? If so, there would be a case to answer there though I'd need to see the evidence. Regardless, I don't think the Brexiteers should really be complaining too much about past fishing arrangements given the shitshow of an agreement Johnson signed up to and promoted as 'victory'.
If a haulier was travelling from a country with cheaper fuel prices, you'd have to expect they would fill up there instead of the UK. Why is this a point worth mentioning? Back in the day when I used to visit Belgium with my Dad (to fill up the car with beer!), we'd often fill up the tank over there as well as fuel was cheaper. Was this somehow wrong?
The straight bananas stuff is well-known nonsense so I'm surprised to see it even mentioned.
As somebody who operates a mail order business with many EU customers, it's unsurprising that we've seen a huge drop in European sales this year. However, it must be said that the postal system has been in such a hole due to a combination of Brexit and the pandemic, that we've not been doing much in the way of marketing to EU customers. Leaving the customs union is another massive issue, especially as EU customers now have to pay VAT and customs charges for their orders. That said, the situation in this regard is changing in July in any case as new EU legislation means that intra-EU sales will also need to levy VAT so that will level the playing-field to some degree. If the post-Brexit problems are any indication, expect the postal system Europe-wide to grind to a halt once this legislation is brought into action.
We're going to have to start collecting VAT at the point of sale for the EU states to enable the customs charges and delays to be avoided, which is going to be fun. At least there is going to be a one-stop system where we'll only have to register for VAT in one EU country. It's going to be a nightmare to implement all this, unfortunately.
Never mind Brexit how you going to cope with Frexit 😀
Ha! Good quesion.
You know what, I was having a conversation with a member of the French side of the family - he is a full on Le Pen voter - and even they looked at Brexit and realised what a car crash Brexit was and now Frexit is off the table ( or at least in any serious level). My wife grew up about 500m from the border with Belgium - notions of nationalitiy and identity are much more fluid on the continent.
It is much easier to talk about cheese eating surrender monkeys when you live in north Lincolnshire. My French side of the family is split across nationalities by mere kilometers.....
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Good to get some higher-tech jobs here, albeit on a relatively small scale. I only hope we haven't paid over the odds for them with the 'assistance' we are going to provide these firms.
Less good news is that it doesn't appear that there will be an agreement for passporting for the financial sector:
I'm pleased that the Nissan stuff is there, but of course how much did the government have to pay for it to happen? This is not a long term solution to keeping business inside the UK. Business have the government over a barrel. "We'll stay but only if you suck up the costs".
While that Nissan good news it is like putting a stickyplaster over a ruptured artery. As Maringer says, we are haemorrhaging jobs, investment and long term future.
I work on this stuff day-after-day in the financial services industry - I really dont think a lot of people understand the shocking long term damage this will have on the UK. As I've said previously, where i work we are offshoring billions in assets and those services move with them. And of course the tax revenues. I work with very serious people and no-one out of all our clients are talking about a future in the UK - it is a done deal and they are moving - be it to France, Germany, Ireland or elsewhere.
Note sure what people will end up with as part of their Brexit dividend because right now I cant see anything other than a highly deregulated, low-wage economy in the future.
This state aid will be a good investment in the people, The engineers will need to be up skilled for this type of new technology so will benefit the area in the long run. It’s been mentioned this aid would not of been allowed whilst under EU rules so another tick in the Brexit box if is the case.
We voted to leave the EU for the wrong reasons. Emotive, jingoistic reasons largely not based in reality.
Even now, most of the damage of Brexit is being hidden behind the pandemic.
We have made a poor decision as a nation. The older generation (who mostly voted leave) sold out the futures of the younger generation based on their understanding of the old world order and not fully understanding the new world order and how Britain's place in it is very much diminished. Although, as a leading voice in the EU we did still retain some influence. On our own, that influence will diminish further and we will become more and more irrelevant on the world stage.
People who voted to leave used to tell me the EU would break up without us in it. How ironic that it seems far more likely the UK will break up instead.
Maybe one day we will go back to the EU with 'cap in hand' and request to rejoin. Never will it be as a leading nation again though and this time we will be really be ruled from Brussels(Paris/Berlin).
We voted to leave the EU for the wrong reasons. Emotive, jingoistic reasons largely not based in reality.
Even now, most of the damage of Brexit is being hidden behind the pandemic.
We have made a poor decision as a nation. The older generation (who mostly voted leave) sold out the futures of the younger generation based on their understanding of the old world order and not fully understanding the new world order and how Britain's place in it is very much diminished. Although, as a leading voice in the EU we did still retain some influence. On our own, that influence will diminish further and we will become more and more irrelevant on the world stage.
People who voted to leave used to tell me the EU would break up without us in it. How ironic that it seems far more likely the UK will break up instead.
Maybe one day we will go back to the EU with 'cap in hand' and request to rejoin. Never will it be as a leading nation again though and this time we will be really be ruled from Brussels(Paris/Berlin).
In quoting about the older generation you seem to have missed one vital point. It was the older generation that voted for us to go into the Common Market, a trading market; FULL STOP.
What happened after that was NOT what we voted for. I was not given a vote to decide upon a European Parliament, European commissions, or anything that would change the sovereignty or rule of law in this country.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
If you look at the Brexit vote breakdown and also the new swing of certain places to the Tories (and visa versa in the so-called Blue Wall) you see a new break in society around those who are comfortable with sociial change (that has been happening since 1950) and those who are not. People who live in Metropolitan areas and those who do not. ;those who have higher education and those who do not.
These are facts. Brexit and its ripple effects are not really about economics but the effect of 50, 60 70 years of socio-economic change and how different groups react to it. Can you adjust or not? Do you feel threatened or is it an opportunity? Coming over here , learning our language and taking my job? Or coming over here ,chasing opportunity and intergratig Or an opportunity to travel elsewhere, learn another language and expand your world?
Expat? Immigrant. What is the difference? Oh, one is English the other is not.
Of course the right has worked out they can sip in the elixir of populism and it gives a sugar rush and a few votes but they need to keep sipping on it ... this is what we see today.. There are no solutions in that.... just more division and conflict and a few cheap votes and more grievance.
Is there a way out of this right now? Not with the current people in place ..... I fear we are in an era where it is easier to say "it is THEIR fault".
THEY were the EU Now that people cannot blame the EU it will be someone else (woke culture, the left, metropolitan elite - whoever the hell they are?. Isn;t Grimsby technically metropolitan?
I hate to keep coming back to this but international politics are highly complex. Anyone who proposes simple solutions to complex problems is a conman. We see it this week with Merkal in London.... a highly news worthy event (yes really)
BJ bullshttng his way through the session with Merkel today was shameful - a friend of mine is close to the events and was there this week through various events.....apparently it was a (to quote directly) "like adults versus babies".....
Anyone who thinks the the UK is "winning" (whatever that means) is not living in reality. We are taking a massive dump on our own carpet to annoy the neighnours.
We are all being conned by people who really do not give a flying eff about Grimsby, about fish, about sovereignty (what does that mean?), about the future.
anyone who thinks Jacob Rees Mogg has your interests at heart ...well.....
I'm a bit drunk so sorry - but this really is a big con ,,,, unfortunately it will take people years to see it. The EU isnt a panacea... but better to try and make the neighbourhood better rather than smearing sh!t all over the front of your house and beating your kids just to make a point.
I don't think that is as good news as you think. You need to read beyond the headlines. Here are a couple of quotes:
Quoted Text
An average €8.92 billion of shares a day were traded on various London venues in June, compared with €8.8 billion for various Dutch venues, according to data from Cboe Europe.
...
In December, London’s share trading volumes stood at €14.3 billion compared with €2.2 billion
So, we're back up to about two thirds of the previous level. Ain't Brexit brilliant? And this is with a passporting agreement in place which expires in a year...
I don't think that is as good news as you think. You need to read beyond the headlines. Here are a couple of quotes:
So, we're back up to about two thirds of the previous level. Ain't Brexit brilliant? And this is with a passporting agreement in place which expires in a year...
I agree with you, the best thing that ever happened to the country.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Worth a loss of hundreds of billions in stock trades each month and the revenue that brings in?
As I've said in the past, if people wanted to leave the EU to regain complete sovereignty, then fair enough. Just don't try to pretend it will make us in any way wealthier. The most ardent of the Brexiteers dishonestly claim we can have our cake and eat it but it really is an either/or situation. I think we've lost a lot, lot more than we've gained and there isn't any evidence to prove me wrong as yet.
When Rees-Mogg said we'd see benefits 50 years down the line, he wasn't joking. Just guessing there would be obvious benefits. A couple of generations into the future.
Worth a loss of hundreds of billions in stock trades each month and the revenue that brings in?
As I've said in the past, if people wanted to leave the EU to regain complete sovereignty, then fair enough. Just don't try to pretend it will make us in any way wealthier. The most ardent of the Brexiteers dishonestly claim we can have our cake and eat it but it really is an either/or situation. I think we've lost a lot, lot more than we've gained and there isn't any evidence to prove me wrong as yet.
When Rees-Mogg said we'd see benefits 50 years down the line, he wasn't joking. Just guessing there would be obvious benefits. A couple of generations into the future.
Rees Mogg did say that 50 years comment, but not in the way you are implying.
I think he said the true economic position would not be known for a very long time, which is obviously true. I think the interviewer was pestering him for the immediate benefits of Brexit and he replied that Brexit was a long term thing, and the overwhelming benefit of Brexit will be over the next 50 years - not that we would have to wait 50 years.
That was in contrast to the interviewer demanding to know the immediate benefits of Brexit, and whether there would be "chaos" at our decision, and he was gently arguing that instant gratification is not what Brexit was about, it was taking back control (!) of our affairs and we would stand or fall by our own decisions over the next decades.
And he was correct, which is why the majority who voted chose to leave the sclerotic EU.
Worth a loss of hundreds of billions in stock trades each month and the revenue that brings in?
As I've said in the past, if people wanted to leave the EU to regain complete sovereignty, then fair enough. Just don't try to pretend it will make us in any way wealthier. The most ardent of the Brexiteers dishonestly claim we can have our cake and eat it but it really is an either/or situation. I think we've lost a lot, lot more than we've gained and there isn't any evidence to prove me wrong as yet.
When Rees-Mogg said we'd see benefits 50 years down the line, he wasn't joking. Just guessing there would be obvious benefits. A couple of generations into the future.
Firstly we have only been out of the EU for 6 months, so the evidence will mount up over the forthcoming years.
Secondly we had near 50 years of being conned.
Lastly, as for recent events of Covid EU nations are behind us for vaccinations, which is a hell of a gain. It's called life, ask the relatives of the millions of EU citizens that have died because the EU failed to implement vaccinations as soon as we did.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
In quoting about the older generation you seem to have missed one vital point. It was the older generation that voted for us to go into the Common Market, a trading market; FULL STOP.
What happened after that was NOT what we voted for. I was not given a vote to decide upon a European Parliament, European commissions, or anything that would change the sovereignty or rule of law in this country.
The point about voting for Common Market is irrelevant. You make it sound like it was only up to the older generation if we remained or not because only they were around when voting took place to join it in the first place. Let's not forget Britain more or less begged to enter the common market being known as the sick man of Europe at the time.
Britain, initially, didn't want to be part of the initial European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) in 1961 or the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1967.
The British government did not engage in a significant way with these talks and signed neither treaty at the time. It disliked many of the supranational elements in the treaties, it was worried about damaging links with Commonwealth countries and it wished to pursue a ‘one-world economic system’ policy in which sterling was a central currency.
However, The UK’s non-participation meant that when it did join the EEC in 1973 it had to accept many elements controversial among some British voters, which were established before it joined: its supranationalism, the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) and the budget. In June 1975 the UK held a referendum to confirm its continuing membership of the EEC. The British people vote to stay in by 67% to 33%.
So it seems you did vote for more than just a trade market after all.
While there are aspects of EU membership which aren't popular there is no denying Britain has changed, prospered and grew while being an EU member.
In the 1960's we made the mistake of not being involved at the outset of the EEC before seeing them prosper while we struggled. I just think we have gone and made the same mistake again and for what? Sovereignty? Laws being forced upon us? Upto the 2016 referendum the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999. So we agreed 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.
We were member of an multinational multicultural organisation. We can't expect to have got our own way all of the time. But it seems we were pretty damn close.
The point about voting for Common Market is irrelevant. You make it sound like it was only up to the older generation if we remained or not because only they were around when voting took place to join it in the first place. Let's not forget Britain more or less begged to enter the common market being known as the sick man of Europe at the time.
Britain, initially, didn't want to be part of the initial European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) in 1961 or the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1967.
The British government did not engage in a significant way with these talks and signed neither treaty at the time. It disliked many of the supranational elements in the treaties, it was worried about damaging links with Commonwealth countries and it wished to pursue a ‘one-world economic system’ policy in which sterling was a central currency.
However, The UK’s non-participation meant that when it did join the EEC in 1973 it had to accept many elements controversial among some British voters, which were established before it joined: its supranationalism, the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) and the budget. In June 1975 the UK held a referendum to confirm its continuing membership of the EEC. The British people vote to stay in by 67% to 33%.
So it seems you did vote for more than just a trade market after all.
While there are aspects of EU membership which aren't popular there is no denying Britain has changed, prospered and grew while being an EU member.
In the 1960's we made the mistake of not being involved at the outset of the EEC before seeing them prosper while we struggled. I just think we have gone and made the same mistake again and for what? Sovereignty? Laws being forced upon us? Upto the 2016 referendum the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999. So we agreed 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.
We were member of an multinational multicultural organisation. We can't expect to have got our own way all of the time. But it seems we were pretty damn close.
If you are under about 50 years of age you weren't born when the vote was taken. What politicians of all sides told the electorate was simply this. 'We think we should trade with countries 20 miles across the channel rather than the like of Australia, Canada, and other countries around the world who are thousands of miles away.
It was put to the population as a trading agreement, FULL STOP. You can add to it what you like but we, the public of the day, were only told of a trading agreement.
You're quite obviously a remainder so stop whingeing. We had a DEMOCRATIC vote and Brexit has happened. There are many things that I have seen in my life which I disagree with but if that is the law then I accept it and move on.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
If you are under about 50 years of age you weren't born when the vote was taken. What politicians of all sides told the electorate was simply this. 'We think we should trade with countries 20 miles across the channel rather than the like of Australia, Canada, and other countries around the world who are thousands of miles away.
It was put to the population as a trading agreement, FULL STOP. You can add to it what you like but we, the public of the day, were only told of a trading agreement.
You're quite obviously a remainder so stop whingeing. We had a DEMOCRATIC vote and Brexit has happened. There are many things that I have seen in my life which I disagree with but if that is the law then I accept it and move on.
What I've never understood was how the vote to leave the EU was a vote to leave the custom union which is what the country voted to join / remain in 1975. The problem is that a trade relationship is always going to mean the need for some join rules and regulations which the leave side of the debate don't seem to accept. I guess we'll see what happens. My personal opinion is that we will have a much close relationship or be back in the EU in 20 years because youngsters tend to be much more pro-EU and with the university system meaning people meet people from the EU and develop relationships, I don't see that changing anytime soon.
What I've never understood was how the vote to leave the EU was a vote to leave the custom union which is what the country voted to join / remain in 1975. The problem is that a trade relationship is always going to mean the need for some join rules and regulations which the leave side of the debate don't seem to accept. I guess we'll see what happens. My personal opinion is that we will have a much close relationship or be back in the EU in 20 years because youngsters tend to be much more pro-EU and with the university system meaning people meet people from the EU and develop relationships, I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Indeed. Of course, this is the only generation who have been young, or even gone to University.
I was young-ish in 1975 when I voted no.
I don't think there is any chance of us rejoining the basket case that is the EU. If we ever thought about it the re-entry rules would be so harsh the British people, young or old, would not accept it.
Indeed. Of course, this is the only generation who have been young, or even gone to University.
I was young-ish in 1975 when I voted no.
I don't think there is any chance of us rejoining the basket case that is the EU. If we ever thought about it the re-entry rules would be so harsh the British people, young or old, would not accept it.
Well up until the noughties relatively few people were going to university so there's definitely been a step change in society. Before I went to university I was anti-EU but developing close relationships from other European nations was one of the reasons I became pro-EU. Whether you like it or not the younger generation does generally identify as European. I imagine there'd be issues with rejoining and thats why I also said we could be in a closer relationship. Its pretty clear that unless there are large changes in opinions, demographic change will mean that the population becomes more pro-EU over the coming decades.
I'm not advocating rejoining right now though. Brexit has to be given time now that it has gone through but unless it begins showing some noticable benefits with the next 10-15 years I imagine we'll see a significant movement towards re-intergrating with the EU.
Well up until the noughties relatively few people were going to university so there's definitely been a step change in society. Before I went to university I was anti-EU but developing close relationships from other European nations was one of the reasons I became pro-EU. Whether you like it or not the younger generation does generally identify as European. I imagine there'd be issues with rejoining and thats why I also said we could be in a closer relationship. Its pretty clear that unless there are large changes in opinions, demographic change will mean that the population becomes more pro-EU over the coming decades.
I'm not advocating rejoining right now though. Brexit has to be given time now that it has gone through but unless it begins showing some noticable benefits with the next 10-15 years I imagine we'll see a significant movement towards re-intergrating with the EU.
Will there be an EU in the next 10/15 years? There a quite a few nations where leaving is now becoming more popular. I am under the impression Italy is one.
Just saying.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Will there be an EU in the next 10/15 years? There a quite a few nations where leaving is now becoming more popular. I am under the impression Italy is one.
Just saying.
Isn't the EU seen more favourably since Brexit by its member states. As others have said even people like Le Pen and Geert Wielders have stopped demanding referenda on membership. I imagine young people in most countries are fairly pro-EU as they've benefited from things like Erasmus and freedom of movement. The EU has plenty of issues but I doubt continental Europe wants to go back to border checks and therefore the EU will remain a necessity.
Isn't the EU seen more favourably since Brexit by its member states. As others have said even people like Le Pen and Geert Wielders have stopped demanding referenda on membership. I imagine young people in most countries are fairly pro-EU as they've benefited from things like Erasmus and freedom of movement. The EU has plenty of issues but I doubt continental Europe wants to go back to border checks and therefore the EU will remain a necessity.
I think covid has put the EU exit thing on the back burner in many countries, so we'll have to see what happens when most Europeans have been vaccinated.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
What I've never understood was how the vote to leave the EU was a vote to leave the custom union which is what the country voted to join / remain in 1975. The problem is that a trade relationship is always going to mean the need for some join rules and regulations which the leave side of the debate don't seem to accept. I guess we'll see what happens. My personal opinion is that we will have a much close relationship or be back in the EU in 20 years because youngsters tend to be much more pro-EU and with the university system meaning people meet people from the EU and develop relationships, I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Why would we want to stay in a customs union where we wouldn't have a seat at the table?
"The British government would have no say over new trade deals if it was in a customs union with the European Union, a former head of the World Trade Organization has said. The comments from Pascal Lamy, who is also a former EU trade commissioner, will dent the hopes of MPs who favour a customs union but seek to retain British influence in the EU."
When Leeds trainer Les Cocker was once told Norman Hunter had broken a leg, he asked: “Whose is it?”
If you are under about 50 years of age you weren't born when the vote was taken. What politicians of all sides told the electorate was simply this. 'We think we should trade with countries 20 miles across the channel rather than the like of Australia, Canada, and other countries around the world who are thousands of miles away.
It was put to the population as a trading agreement, FULL STOP. You can add to it what you like but we, the public of the day, were only told of a trading agreement.
You're quite obviously a remainder so stop whingeing. We had a DEMOCRATIC vote and Brexit has happened. There are many things that I have seen in my life which I disagree with but if that is the law then I accept it and move on.
I think you may find it was you who was whinging about some vote you pretend you were lied to about in the 1970's. You weren't, the points you pretend you were lied to about were openly debated. Alas, similar to Brexit, you only seemed to have listened to the more popular sound bites rather than try to look any deeper on the issues.
Maybe when remainers see some evidence of the real advantages of Brexit they will stop moaning. At the moment, trade is way down, we are becoming more isolated and irrelevant on the world stage and it is looking more likely the break up of the UK will happen than the break up of the EU that Brexiteers would have had you believe would happen.
I think you may find it was you who was whinging about some vote you pretend you were lied to about in the 1970's. You weren't, the points you pretend you were lied to about were openly debated. Alas, similar to Brexit, you only seemed to have listened to the more popular sound bites rather than try to look any deeper on the issues.
Maybe when remainers see some evidence of the real advantages of Brexit they will stop moaning. At the moment, trade is way down, we are becoming more isolated and irrelevant on the world stage and it is looking more likely the break up of the UK will happen than the break up of the EU that Brexiteers would have had you believe would happen.
I don't recall any debates but about 67% of the population at the time seem to have agreed with my view.
We have not been relevant on a world stage for decades, the only time we were relevant was when the only countries to have the bomb were the USA and us. As far as a world stage is concerned the USA just about dominates with Russia closely followed by China. We might be in 4th place but India is an emerging country along with the Arab states. I don't include the EU as it's not a state or nation on its own.
President Nola would love independence but has to find the money to support her dreams. If the UK government spent as much per head on Scotland, as it did in England, then she'd more or less be bankrupt.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
I don't recall any debates but about 67% of the population at the time seem to have agreed with my view.
We have not been relevant on a world stage for decades, the only time we were relevant was when the only countries to have the bomb were the USA and us. As far as a world stage is concerned the USA just about dominates with Russia closely followed by China. We might be in 4th place but India is an emerging country along with the Arab states. I don't include the EU as it's not a state or nation on its own.
President Nola would love independence but has to find the money to support her dreams. If the UK government spent as much per head on Scotland, as it did in England, then she'd more or less be bankrupt.
You don't recall? Well it was 46 years ago tbf. Let me remind you...
Sovereignty - the ability to run our own affairs - was very much an issue in the 1975 referendum.
Both Enoch Powell, the maverick right wing Tory and left wing Labour cabinet minister Tony Benn - the loudest voices in the Out campaign - talked endlessly about it.
In their leaflet to voters, the Out campaign warned that the Common Market "sets out by stages to merge Britain with France, Germany, Italy and other countries into a single nation," in which Britain would be a "mere province".
Even the In campaign openly acknowledged that being a member of the EEC involved "pooling" sovereignty with the eight other nations who were members at the time but Britain could no longer go on it's own... we were on our knee's at the time.
So you see, these issues were debated. Maybe you don't remember or just ignored these debates. Nevertheless, they were definitely debated.
You don't recall? Well it was 46 years ago tbf. Let me remind you...
Sovereignty - the ability to run our own affairs - was very much an issue in the 1975 referendum.
Both Enoch Powell, the maverick right wing Tory and left wing Labour cabinet minister Tony Benn - the loudest voices in the Out campaign - talked endlessly about it.
In their leaflet to voters, the Out campaign warned that the Common Market "sets out by stages to merge Britain with France, Germany, Italy and other countries into a single nation," in which Britain would be a "mere province".
Even the In campaign openly acknowledged that being a member of the EEC involved "pooling" sovereignty with the eight other nations who were members at the time but Britain could no longer go on it's own... we were on our knee's at the time.
So you see, these issues were debated. Maybe you don't remember or just ignored these debates. Nevertheless, they were definitely debated.
Thank you for pointing this out but, in all honesty, I still don't remember.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
You don't recall? Well it was 46 years ago tbf. Let me remind you...
Sovereignty - the ability to run our own affairs - was very much an issue in the 1975 referendum.
Both Enoch Powell, the maverick right wing Tory and left wing Labour cabinet minister Tony Benn - the loudest voices in the Out campaign - talked endlessly about it.
In their leaflet to voters, the Out campaign warned that the Common Market "sets out by stages to merge Britain with France, Germany, Italy and other countries into a single nation," in which Britain would be a "mere province".
Even the In campaign openly acknowledged that being a member of the EEC involved "pooling" sovereignty with the eight other nations who were members at the time but Britain could no longer go on it's own... we were on our knee's at the time.
So you see, these issues were debated. Maybe you don't remember or just ignored these debates. Nevertheless, they were definitely debated.
All well and good.
But, I challenge you to give us 3…..no, 1 example of something we can now ‘take back control’ of that was out of our hands when we were in the EU, apart from immigration (how’s that Australian style points system cobblers going?)
The point about voting for Common Market is irrelevant. You make it sound like it was only up to the older generation if we remained or not because only they were around when voting took place to join it in the first place. Let's not forget Britain more or less begged to enter the common market being known as the sick man of Europe at the time.
Britain, initially, didn't want to be part of the initial European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) in 1961 or the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1967.
The British government did not engage in a significant way with these talks and signed neither treaty at the time. It disliked many of the supranational elements in the treaties, it was worried about damaging links with Commonwealth countries and it wished to pursue a ‘one-world economic system’ policy in which sterling was a central currency.
However, The UK’s non-participation meant that when it did join the EEC in 1973 it had to accept many elements controversial among some British voters, which were established before it joined: its supranationalism, the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) and the budget. In June 1975 the UK held a referendum to confirm its continuing membership of the EEC. The British people vote to stay in by 67% to 33%.
So it seems you did vote for more than just a trade market after all.
While there are aspects of EU membership which aren't popular there is no denying Britain has changed, prospered and grew while being an EU member.
In the 1960's we made the mistake of not being involved at the outset of the EEC before seeing them prosper while we struggled. I just think we have gone and made the same mistake again and for what? Sovereignty? Laws being forced upon us? Upto the 2016 referendum the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999. So we agreed 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.
We were member of an multinational multicultural organisation. We can't expect to have got our own way all of the time. But it seems we were pretty damn close.
Thanks for bringing some longer perspective on this. I remember the 75 referendum but I don’t remember many of the details.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
But, I challenge you to give us 3…..no, 1 example of something we can now ‘take back control’ of that was out of our hands when we were in the EU, apart from immigration (how’s that Australian style points system cobblers going?)
Any update on this ??
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
The 'independent' Office of Budget Responsibility (inverted commas required because it's really just another arm of the Treasury), seems to think that Brexit will cause a 4% hit to GDP which is about twice as high as the once in a century global pandemic we're currently trying to deal with where they are forecasting a 2% hit.
The main concern here is that due to the 'closeness' with the Treasury, the OBR forecasts have always been hopelessly optimistic in most regards. Forecasts from other analysts are closer to a 6% hit from Brexit which would be about the same as the recession caused by the Global Financial Crisis back in 2008.
The thing not to forget is that this is a hit which takes you below the pre-existing trend so any 'growth' (it's a tricky concept) is lost forever and it takes years to get back to the place where you were originally.
Apart from that, it's going swimmingly. A handy 'Fishing war' brewing as well, I see, so there will be some silly sabre-rattling which will help Macron and Johnson, but most definitely not the fishermen in the UK or France.
The 'independent' Office of Budget Responsibility (inverted commas required because it's really just another arm of the Treasury), seems to think that Brexit will cause a 4% hit to GDP which is about twice as high as the once in a century global pandemic we're currently trying to deal with where they are forecasting a 2% hit.
The main concern here is that due to the 'closeness' with the Treasury, the OBR forecasts have always been hopelessly optimistic in most regards. Forecasts from other analysts are closer to a 6% hit from Brexit which would be about the same as the recession caused by the Global Financial Crisis back in 2008.
The thing not to forget is that this is a hit which takes you below the pre-existing trend so any 'growth' (it's a tricky concept) is lost forever and it takes years to get back to the place where you were originally.
Apart from that, it's going swimmingly. A handy 'Fishing war' brewing as well, I see, so there will be some silly sabre-rattling which will help Macron and Johnson, but most definitely not the fishermen in the UK or France.
Yep! Always thought it was a stupid idea and would end up a sh1t show, but it has gone more to pot than I imagined.
Those sunlit uplands are way way out of sight and not getting any closer.
Of course there isn’t an update. Because there isn’t anything to point at. Even those who wanted to end ‘freedom of movement’ seemed to forget that it was a two way street that would impact their own scope to travel in Europe without restrictions and charges, and this is to say nothing of the chronic labour shortages we are experiencing as a result. I’ve got little respect for people who care more about the colour of their passport than the ease with which they can use it. As has been said elsewhere - in brexit, we are probably the first country in the world to impose economic sanctions on itself. Brexit is palpably a sh1tshow and an act of self harm. It’s not even debatable now. Still, at least we’ve got a p1ssed up dandelion of a prime minister who can waffle some ludicrous empty slogans and set out the non strategy that ‘believing in Britain’ will see us through.
The people who wanted a different colour passport are the sort of people who don’t even have one anyway and kid themselves that a week in Cornwall is as good as going for a beach holiday abroad. They’ll also say that English sparkling wine is nicer than Champagne or Prosecco so we don’t need to import any anyway. Gahhhh!
The problem with Brexit was that after the referendum our politicians in government at that time failed us. Cameron did a runner, we weren't meant to vote leave. May was cosying up to the EU which left us with Boris.
He promised out within a year and won a snap election. Whilst he kept his promise he's failed at everything else, so we are where we are. Stuck with Boris, the Tory's darling, until the next election.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
The problem with Brexit was that after the referendum our politicians in government at that time failed us. Cameron did a runner, we weren't meant to vote leave. May was cosying up to the EU which left us with Boris.
He promised out within a year and won a snap election. Whilst he kept his promise he's failed at everything else, so we are where we are. Stuck with Boris, the Tory's darling, until the next election.
Boris famously sways with the political wind. At various times, to suit himself and his ambitions of course, he has been for the EU, then against it.
If you were of an insane disposition and decided to trawl through his many newspaper columns, books and speeches, you can find arguments for and against just about anything. He once said that he was a bit of a fan of the European Union and that if we didn't have one, we would invent something like it. He was also once in favour of Turkey joining, which he later back tracked on.
He famously wrote an unpublished article favouring staying in Europe. He later said he wrote the unfinished article as "a mental exercise".
In short. all of this was known when he hoodwinked the country with his get Brexit done stance, tapping into the mood of the nation. Had it not been for Dominic Cummings and his very clever campaign of lies, it's more than possible that the country would have voted remain.
Boris is a brazen liar but clever enough to know when to stick and when to twist.
I'm a bit drunk and was trawling through this thread out of nostalgia but then I I re-read it and I recall how much people have been done-over my someone who went to Eton and is part of an elite family whose father was employed by the European Commision, whose son Alexender de Pfeffel Johnson's education was paid for by the EU (and by me and you)..... and who is doing this all for a bit of an ego trip;
He is not an idiot - that is the mistake. He is part of a very well co-ordinated propoganda campaign. A useful idiot.
The same mistake with Rees Mogg is to think he is smart - just listen to his words, but imagiine them in a Barnsley accent - then you will see them for what they are.
I'm a bit drunk and was trawling through this thread out of nostalgia but then I I re-read it and I recall how much people have been done-over my someone who went to Eton and is part of an elite family whose father was employed by the European Commision, whose son Alexender de Pfeffel Johnson's education was paid for by the EU (and by me and you)..... and who is doing this all for a bit of an ego trip;
He is not an idiot - that is the mistake. He is part of a very well co-ordinated propoganda campaign. A useful idiot.
The same mistake with Rees Mogg is to think he is smart - just listen to his words, but imagiine them in a Barnsley accent - then you will see them for what they are.
Jesus wept even the most basic observer only has to look at the way big nose Macron is behaving towards us, to understand that Brexit was the absolute right thing to do. 🇬🇧
Absolutely nothing to do with presedential elections on the horizon, obviously. Like that time Johnson sent a Navy vessel to scare off French trawlers before the council elections - lol.
The Tories have reneged on another Brexit promise. Namely the pledge to cut the "unfair and damaging" 5% VAT on energy prices. Apparently, leaving the EU would allow us to do that. Despite calls to carry out that promise due to the soaring cost of gas and electric, the Chancellor chose not to.
A good job we got the quick trade deal with the Yanks we were assured would be easy to sign, because otherwise our steel sector would be in real trouble now:
I just keep laughing…literally can’t find a single benefit to it and not a single thing is working right now…
Proper laughable stuff, those still actually in favour and think it was a good does really must be loyal to the cause because it’s most definitely a lost one…
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
Can’t believe people still banging on about it , we are out the EU get over it, all this sniping isn’t going to change anything if you voted to stay well unlucky now get behind your Country instead of moan moan moaning, if you don’t like it you know what to do.
Can’t believe people still banging on about it , we are out the EU get over it, all this sniping isn’t going to change anything if you voted to stay well unlucky now get behind your Country instead of moan moan moaning, if you don’t like it you know what to do.
Its a fair question though isn't it? Name a item which has proved a benefit since the vote to leave. Are you saying it shouldn't be questioned but "just get on with it"?
FFS we are not even a year in, we are still paying billions into the EU! instead of sticking the boot in to your own Country have a look how things going in the EU? No to dissimilar I suspect… Best check in with the mouthpiece of the glorious EU remember him….Michel Barnier, so what’s he saying now as wannabe leader of France: "We must regain our legal sovereignty so that we are no longer subject to the rulings of the European Court of Justice or the European Court of Human Rights."😂😂😂 and I s he still banging the drum for open borders? 😂😂😂
Many positives already coming our way you want me to name 1 ok the security deal with Australia USA was a Brexiteer’s dream for me😍🇬🇧
The politicians and Whitehall bureaucrats had 3 1/2 years from the vote to leave to manage a smooth transition. Once again those in highly paid jobs failed us, again, which is why we have today's problems with the EU and a certain frenchman who wants reelection.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
The issue is that the various Leave campaigns (good dodge around spending restrictions there, eh?) never thought they would win the referendum and therefore hadn't thought about what Brexit would actually mean other than some hand-wavy bullshit about sovereignty and sunlit uplands. Plenty of the senior Brexiteers were quoted saying we could remain in the customs union - because they were too dim to understand you can't sign new trade deals unless there was a complete split from the EU - unless you try to join the EFTA group of countries.
A hardish Brexit was the only option apart from this and this is where the wrangling began. Remember Johnson's 'brillian' Brexit deal which he negotiated along with the incomparably dense Lord Frost? It was the same thing that May had rejected earlier as something that no British PM could ever sign because it would effectively mean separating NI from the UK to some degree. Johnson, of course, didn't give a flying intercourse about NI, the peace process, or anything other than getting into power. Hence the ensuing shitshow as we try to pretend the 'fantastic' deal signed a couple of years ago isn't valid because those nasty Europeans insist on actually implementing it.
It says a lot that, due to our behaviour and rhetoric over the past couple of years, our only 'allies' (inverted commas because they really don't give a excrement about us but can use our support for their own ends) are a few countries in Eastern Europe with authoritarian right-wing governments (Neo-fascist in the case or Orban) who are fixing the judicial and voting systems to entrench their own power. Now, who else a bit closer to home does that sound like, eh?
Britain is working on plans to withdraw from three major EU research programmes, which would see Brussels denied up to £15 billion funding.
Amid deteriorating relations with Brussels, the Government has commenced work on domestic alternatives should the UK pull the plug on Horizon Europe, Copernicus and Euratom.
They are the bloc’s €90 billion (£77 billion) flagship scientific, satellite, and nuclear programmes, which the UK agreed to remain part of when it signed the Brexit trade deal last year.
It suggests that ministers are actively drawing up measures to mitigate retaliatory options open to the European Commission, should Britain be forced to trigger Article 16 of the Northern Ireland Protocol in the coming weeks.
The UK is set to contribute £2.1 billion annually to the seven-year Horizon programme in order to maintain access for British scientists and researchers to pan-European projects and funding.
It has also secured access to the Copernicus Earth observation programme, deemed vital to the UK space sector, while reaching a separate deal on continued involvement in the Euratom nuclear research programme.
However, entry has been stalled by the EU despite other non-member states such as Norway already receiving formal association status – meaning British institutions are missing out on research and funding opportunities.
Now a leaked government paper, circulated at a Brexit Cabinet sub-committee this week, has revealed that ministers believe the delay is a deliberate bid by Brussels to create leverage in the talks over Northern Ireland, and that the programmes will soon stop representing value for money.
On Saturday night, a senior government source said: "Blocking the UK from joining Horizon is in no one's interest – we can't participate and they lose out our financial contribution. We're having to look at alternatives in case the EU does block our access, which would be a breach of what we agreed less than a year ago."
Another source said the EU was at risk of breaching its obligations under Article 710 of the Trade and Cooperation Agreement.
The leaked document says that while there is hope the EU could de-escalate, departments have been told to prepare "alternatives to each programme in case association should not prove possible to a satisfactory timeline".
It is also understood that Lord Frost, the Brexit minister, has been working with Kwasi Kwarteng, the Business Secretary, on reviving a British alternative to Horizon Europe known as the Discovery Fund.
Sources familiar with the plans say a target date of early 2022 has been discussed and that any domestic schemes would be funded from the money that would have otherwise gone to the EU programmes.
In a sign that frustration with Brussels is at an all-time high, the paper goes on to say that work should begin even though the "programme benefits cannot be fully replicated in domestic alternatives" and withdrawing "would impact the ambition to become a science superpower".
Restoring Britain's place as a world leader in science is a key plank of Boris Johnson's vision for "Global Britain".
The plans come amid growing expectations that Mr Johnson could soon trigger Article 16, the so-called nuclear option enabling the UK to suspend parts of the Northern Ireland Protocol.
While the UK and EU remain locked in talks, senior government figures have revealed that the negotiations have so far failed to deliver any meaningful progress.
On Saturday night, they broke cover to publicly criticise the EU's plan to fix the protocol, warning that its proposals to cut customs checks, paperwork for hauliers and barriers to medicines flowing from Great Britain to Northern Ireland fall far short of what was promised.
While the talks ultimately hinge on the future role of the European Court of Justice in the province, UK negotiators say several of the EU proposals are "actually worse" than the grace periods currently in force.
In particular, Lord Frost's team have singled out the commission's vow to slash the number of checks by 50 per cent, arguing that it fails to remove a single product from having to go through typical customs processes and is too narrow to have any impact on a significant number of businesses.
The UK continues to argue that most of the checks on goods which pose no risk of leaking into the EU's Single Market should be removed. It has also challenged the bloc's claim that its plans will reduce the amount of export certificates lorry drivers need to fill out to one per load, asserting that the majority of lorries destined for Northern Ireland would still be stopped for checks.
Even on medicines, the EU's proposals are considered too complex to guarantee that the supply of some British drugs would remain viable, while some drugs for patients would continue to be supplied only on an emergency basis.
It is understood the UK is preparing to pull out of the talks by the end of November should the EU fail to move, with a government source saying on Saturday night: "They [the EU's proposals] don't deliver what they say on the tin. The number of checks and processes would still be unacceptably high, contrary to what the commission said when they first announced them.
"The Court of Justice would still be able to rule on laws in Northern Ireland, even though the people of Northern Ireland have no say on how they are made. When Maros Sefcovic comes to London next week, he must realise that a change in the EU's approach is needed. If that happens, we're optimistic that there is a way through this."
However, several influential figures in the Government already believe that triggering Article 16 is now inevitable, with one source warning: "Where we are right now is that the EU has shown zero signs of budging. If that's all we have got to work with then it's not the nuclear option, it's the only option."
Discussions over UK readiness for triggering it are accelerating, with ministers and officials currently debating whether to hold a Parliamentary vote should they be forced to act.
While holding one is not thought to be legally required, several government figures believe securing Parliament's support would strengthen the UK's hand and nullify the risk of campaigners seeking to challenge the decision through judicial review.
‘EU could seek to suspend entire Brexit trade deal’
Should the UK do so, the EU warned this week that it will face "serious consequences". The bloc is expected to hit back with punitive tariffs on high-value British exports, stricter controls of British lorries and suspension of the data transfer arrangements with the UK.
Some member states have suggested the EU could go further and seek to suspend the entire Brexit trade deal, causing major disruption for British businesses and consumers.
The UK's participation in Horizon, Euratom and Copernicus would also be likely to be used as leverage. According to the Government's latest paper, entitled "UK's approach to participation in EU programmes", a number of actions have been ordered to help mitigate against the threat.
These include the Department for Business (BEIS) developing a "handling plan" to ensure stakeholders in the programmes, such as universities and scientific institutions, are kept up to speed with the work on alternative plans.
BEIS, the Department of the Environment (Defra) and the Treasury have also been told to start preparing short-term measures to mitigate another delay in the UK's entry.
On specific programme replacements, the document says Defra and BEIS need to begin to prepare options for long-term investment to replace Copernicus and ways of addressing the impact of losing its data on the UK space sector.
For Horizon, it says planning for the Discovery Fund should be refreshed with new timescales in order for it to be delivered at pace, and for Euratom it says BEIS should open a dialogue with the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor, the project to build the world's first functioning nuclear fusion system, in order to secure independent access.
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
I'd imagine it's a case that Amazon are trying to bully Visa into dropping the level of charges for these cards. Not sure if it is particularly related to Brexit, unless the EU has some sort of legislation keeping the charges down within their trading bloc.
Card charges are weird - all over the place depending on brand and type of card (personal or corporate) and they have a whole range of subcharges and fees which are difficult to decipher. I can't say I remember Visa being any more expensive than Mastercard last time we checked, however.
I'd imagine it's a case that Amazon are trying to bully Visa into dropping the level of charges for these cards. Not sure if it is particularly related to Brexit, unless the EU has some sort of legislation keeping the charges down within their trading bloc.
Card charges are weird - all over the place depending on brand and type of card (personal or corporate) and they have a whole range of subcharges and fees which are difficult to decipher. I can't say I remember Visa being any more expensive than Mastercard last time we checked, however.
The EU limits transaction fees to 0.3% of the purchase cost. Since we left the EU the credit card companies have all used the opportunity to increase fees five-fold to 1.5%. Amazon seem to have targeted Visa as they have had disagreements in Asia & Australia with them & realistically Amazon can’t target all the credit card providers at the same time.
The EU limits transaction fees to 0.3% of the purchase cost. Since we left the EU the credit card companies have all used the opportunity to increase fees five-fold to 1.5%. Amazon seem to have targeted Visa as they have had disagreements in Asia & Australia with them & realistically Amazon can’t target all the credit card providers at the same time.
Ah, no surprise then. As mentioned, they have all sorts of other surcharges in place which I imagine is to get around the EU legislation to some degree, but a 5-fold increase in this one area isn't going to be accepted by the likes of Amazon. I'd imagine there will be some brinkmanship and an agreement will be made.
State of the desperately sad still remoaners….. visa and Amazon have confirmed nothing to do with Brexit!
Are your lives that sad you have to constantly trawl for news headlines in the hope of a negative link to Brexit? Can you at least understand how pathetic you sound?
Do us all a favour and search for Royal Dutch Shell… now that will really trigger you 😂
State of the desperately sad still remoaners….. visa and Amazon have confirmed nothing to do with Brexit!
Are your lives that sad you have to constantly trawl for news headlines in the hope of a negative link to Brexit? Can you at least understand how pathetic you sound?
Do us all a favour and search for Royal Dutch Shell… now that will really trigger you 😂
That might shed some light on why they're keen to move their tax residency to the UK...
Interesting no mentions of the court case that Shell lost in the Netherlands about reducing its carbon emissions massively by 2030. Of course that has got nothing to do with this at all.
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
State of the desperately sad still remoaners….. visa and Amazon have confirmed nothing to do with Brexit!
Are your lives that sad you have to constantly trawl for news headlines in the hope of a negative link to Brexit? Can you at least understand how pathetic you sound?
Do us all a favour and search for Royal Dutch Shell… now that will really trigger you 😂
Yes ok.....
Amazon.com Inc. will stop accepting purchases made with Visa Inc. credit cards issued in the U.K. starting next year, the latest escalation by the online retailer in its push against transaction fees charged by payment networks.
An Amazon spokesperson said “the cost of accepting card payments continues to be an obstacle for businesses striving to provide the best prices for customers.”
Customers can still use Visa debit cards, as well as MasterCard Inc. and American Express Co. credit cards, as well as Visa credit cards issued outside of the U.K., the retailer told users, offering them twenty pounds ($27) off their next purchase if they set a debit or non-Visa credit card as their payment default. In Singapore and Australia, Amazon has already imposed a surcharge for those using Visa credit cards.
“We are very disappointed that Amazon is threatening to restrict consumer choice in the future. When consumer choice is limited, nobody wins,” a Visa spokesman said in an email. “We have a long-standing relationship with Amazon, and we continue to work toward a resolution.”
Card fees have long been a flashpoint between merchants, banks and payment networks such as Mastercard and Visa, the world’s largest.
Retailers have long complained about the amount they spend each year to accept electronic payments, a figure that’s grown to more than $100 billion a year in the U.S. as fees increase and consumers flock to premium cards, which carry higher interchange rates -- fees charged every time a consumer uses a card.
The issue is an increasingly sensitive one in the U.K. after Brexit, with both Visa and Mastercard drawing scrutiny for upping certain fees now the U.K. is outside the European Union. Research this week showed credit and debit card costs have increased by 150 million pounds a year, with both U.K. and European retailers losing out.
Britain’s departure from the EU removed caps on transactions between the U.K. and the European Economic Area allowing card firms to increase cross-border payment fees, according to retail payments advisory firm CMS Payments Intelligence and the British Retail Consortium.
“Card payments accounted for over four-fifths of U.K. retail spending in 2020, with just two firms facilitating 98% of these payments,” said Andrew Cregan, payments policy adviser at the British Retail Consortium, who called for the U.K.’s Payment System Regulator to intervene. “Ultimately, it will be consumers who suffer higher prices unless these spiraling costs can be brought to heel.”
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
That might shed some light on why they're keen to move their tax residency to the UK...
Interesting no mentions of the court case that Shell lost in the Netherlands about reducing its carbon emissions massively by 2030. Of course that has got nothing to do with this at all.
State of the desperately sad still remoaners….. visa and Amazon have confirmed nothing to do with Brexit!
Are your lives that sad you have to constantly trawl for news headlines in the hope of a negative link to Brexit? Can you at least understand how pathetic you sound?
Do us all a favour and search for Royal Dutch Shell… now that will really trigger you 😂
State of the desperately sad still remoaners….. visa and Amazon have confirmed nothing to do with Brexit!
Are your lives that sad you have to constantly trawl for news headlines in the hope of a negative link to Brexit? Can you at least understand how pathetic you sound?
Do us all a favour and search for Royal Dutch Shell… now that will really trigger you 😂
You’re going to be heartbroken when the Dutch government persuade Shell to reverse their decision.
Amazon.com Inc. will stop accepting purchases made with Visa Inc. credit cards issued in the U.K. starting next year, the latest escalation by the online retailer in its push against transaction fees charged by payment networks.
An Amazon spokesperson said “the cost of accepting card payments continues to be an obstacle for businesses striving to provide the best prices for customers.”
Customers can still use Visa debit cards, as well as MasterCard Inc. and American Express Co. credit cards, as well as Visa credit cards issued outside of the U.K., the retailer told users, offering them twenty pounds ($27) off their next purchase if they set a debit or non-Visa credit card as their payment default. In Singapore and Australia, Amazon has already imposed a surcharge for those using Visa credit cards.
“We are very disappointed that Amazon is threatening to restrict consumer choice in the future. When consumer choice is limited, nobody wins,” a Visa spokesman said in an email. “We have a long-standing relationship with Amazon, and we continue to work toward a resolution.”
Card fees have long been a flashpoint between merchants, banks and payment networks such as Mastercard and Visa, the world’s largest.
Retailers have long complained about the amount they spend each year to accept electronic payments, a figure that’s grown to more than $100 billion a year in the U.S. as fees increase and consumers flock to premium cards, which carry higher interchange rates -- fees charged every time a consumer uses a card.
The issue is an increasingly sensitive one in the U.K. after Brexit, with both Visa and Mastercard drawing scrutiny for upping certain fees now the U.K. is outside the European Union. Research this week showed credit and debit card costs have increased by 150 million pounds a year, with both U.K. and European retailers losing out.
Britain’s departure from the EU removed caps on transactions between the U.K. and the European Economic Area allowing card firms to increase cross-border payment fees, according to retail payments advisory firm CMS Payments Intelligence and the British Retail Consortium.
“Card payments accounted for over four-fifths of U.K. retail spending in 2020, with just two firms facilitating 98% of these payments,” said Andrew Cregan, payments policy adviser at the British Retail Consortium, who called for the U.K.’s Payment System Regulator to intervene. “Ultimately, it will be consumers who suffer higher prices unless these spiraling costs can be brought to heel.”
Two greedy companies being greedy, the joys of capitalism! Check out the Amazon deal with MasterCard😉
Were you not the one asking “name one … just one”😂 Again we are not even a year in and still paying billions it’s called transition! Give it another 5 years at least and then make comment.
Were you not the one asking “name one … just one”😂 Again we are not even a year in and still paying billions it’s called transition! Give it another 5 years at least and then make comment.
Did it say that on the bus?
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
I have yet to have a single Brexit supporter tell me of a single law that they didn't like which was imposed upon us by the EU - care to have a go ? Name as many as you like.
I have yet to have a single Brexit supporter tell me of a single law that we as a (dominant) country (with a large voting presence in EU) opposed but had imposed upon us as a country. Care to have a go ? Again name as many as you like.
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
We had this before Brexit, it's made no difference.
Did we fûck!
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
I seem to remember I had a petrol rationing book, I remember 8 gallons of petrol for £1, the only way to get an operation in Grimsby was to collapse in the street to beat the queue and veg rotting in the fields because it was overweight!
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
True, apparently supermarkets want a specific weight anything over ( and under ) is ploughed back into the soil. Cannot be sold elsewhere due to the terms of the contract.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Frost has been found out. Not a quarter as clever as he thinks he is and must have finally realised that attempting to bully the EU into giving out sweeties isn't going to work. Still, I shouldn't be too critical of this buffoon. He's blagged himself a life peerage in just his mid-50s so he's quid's in. Can claim over 300 quid a day just for rocking up and reading the paper for 5 minutes.
I don't doubt that he'll be getting some cushy directorships/advisory roles from the companies of the Brexiteers as well.
Lord Frost is leaving the government because he is a conservative and true Brexiteer. Boris Johnson is neither.
No loss to Bozza. Of all his problems, losing an incompetent ideologue is the least.
Never thought Johnson was a Brexiteer. It was only ever a career move for the lying cûnt. More the fool the idiots who believed him. You only have to look at his previous pronouncements, e.g. when Mayor of London, and the fact he wrote out arguments for both sides on the eve of deciding Brexit was better for him personally.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Liz fricking Truss as the replacement for Frosty the no man.
Whenever I think of Truss (and I try not to), I recall this cringeworthy speech at the Conservative conference some years back:
Makes me think she's probably a bit of a simpleton, deep down. Actually, probably not all that deep down. Yet another Oxford PPE graduate (the two main parties are full of them, as is the media) so should be intelligent enough. God only knows what they do to them there.
Liz fricking Truss as the replacement for Frosty the no man.
Whenever I think of Truss (and I try not to), I recall this cringeworthy speech at the Conservative conference some years back:
Makes me think she's probably a bit of a simpleton, deep down. Actually, probably not all that deep down. Yet another Oxford PPE graduate (the two main parties are full of them, as is the media) so should be intelligent enough. God only knows what they do to them there.
They take a youth with half a brain then manipulate them like a piece of clay. They are then injected with words to make them sound intelligent and released into society with less knowledge than they entered with. There are a few who escaped the system who do have specialised intelligence but these are few and far between
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
No loss to Bozza. Of all his problems, losing an incompetent ideologue is the least.
Never thought Johnson was a Brexiteer. It was only ever a career move for the lying cûnt. More the fool the idiots who believed him. You only have to look at his previous pronouncements, e.g. when Mayor of London, and the fact he wrote out arguments for both sides on the eve of deciding Brexit was better for him personally.
If anyone believed Boris was a brexiteer or even for one minute acruslly cared about anything but himself they’re an idiot. Surely?
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
They take a youth with half a brain then manipulate them like a piece of clay. They are then injected with words to make them sound intelligent and released into society with less knowledge than they entered with. There are a few who escaped the system who do have specialised intelligence but these are few and far between
Starts well before Oxbridge…brother in laws colleague and friend went to Eton, it starts there or in the higher end private schools…he flipping hated it. When a bloke who studied the classics finds himself leading a country but someone with a grade D in maths but a health and social care NVQ, who’s working as a family practitioner already but can’t get on a social care degree it very much outlines the idea that these folk are manipulated themselves and in turn manipulate others…
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
Lord Frost is leaving the government because he is a conservative and true Brexiteer. Boris Johnson is neither.
Frost was a complete failure in his role, more fishing licenses handed to the French last week and no movement on N Ireland, he realised he was on a complete loser and has bailed out a sinking ship, Johnson has served his purpose he will be kicked out in the next year and have as much mud stuck to him as possible, the only reason he is still there is because the alternatives in the Party are just as bad. The Tories will pretend they are a new party and the cuts and chaos of the last 11 years was nothing to do with them, the Tory press will back them and the electorate will fall for it all again. We are a laughing stock internationally with a clown in charge of the most useless set of ministers ever assembled
I voted to leave, perhaps to my own naivety I never dreamed we would sign a deal so sh1tty. Pretending the deal we signed is anything other than terrible is very blinkered. I thought we would end up with a deal similar to Norway who have sensibly maintained their own 200 mile limit and their own currency, however we had Johnson’s half baked oven ready deal that even he knows is so crap he his trying to change it.
It’s odd isn’t it, there’s two types of pro Brexit now; those who voted to leave and stick by it and through stubbornness won’t admit it’s a flipping disaster and then those that voted leave but have the spine to admit it is a disaster and had they known the real picture would’ve voted remain.
Interesting, I wonder if any remain voters would change the way they voted like so many leavers would…most of my friends/family was a 50/50 split but almost all the 50% that voted leave are now questioning their decision…
Food for thought perhaps…
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
Thing is, if we'd left the EU, remained in the customs union and joined EFTA (assuming this could have been negotiated), then we'd have been in a situation where we didn't have such a catastrophic hit to our economy (also fewer issues in Northern Ireland), we still wouldn't have been beholden to the EU commission and we wouldn't have been culling and burning pigs on farms (all the while importing more pork from the EU), because we didn't have enough abattoir workers. OK, we'd still have had to follow EU regulations on food an quality standards and the like, but we're going to be doing that in any case if we want to continue trading with our nearest neighbour and main trading partner.
We'd have had to keep the borders open for EU workers (you know, the ones who stop the animals being incinerated and the crops rotting in the fields) but, we did have some flexibility as to who was allowed in back when we were still members of the EU. We just didn't bother to try and limit immigration with the options available to us. In fact, you'd have thought the most ardent Brexiteers would have been happier with the EU immigrants than those coming to us from other countries around the world whose numbers we could easily have reduced if so desired.
The Brexiteers sold a 'not much will change but everything will be better' narrative whilst never discussing how leaving the customs union would change pretty much every aspect of business for any companies dealing with EU countries. They've gotten away with their dishonesty/stupidity. Delete as appropriate.
We voted in June 2016 to leave. We left in December 2020.
4 1/2 years to sort out some efficient means of leaving, and it's still going on. All this under Tory leadership shows they don't know what they are doing, neither do the bureaucrats whose salaries we pay. To many who voted leave it meant that 'adios amigo' and a new start to control our borders, fishing, etc.
What we have is a mess caused by 4 1/2 years of dithering by inept politicians, some of whom do not accept that the free vote of the people was to leave.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
We voted in June 2016 to leave. We left in December 2020.
4 1/2 years to sort out some efficient means of leaving, and it's still going on. All this under Tory leadership shows they don't know what they are doing, neither do the bureaucrats whose salaries we pay. To many who voted leave it meant that 'adios amigo' and a new start to control our borders, fishing, etc.
What we have is a mess caused by 4 1/2 years of dithering by inept politicians, some of whom do not accept that the free vote of the people was to leave.
It’s almost like there was no efficient way of leaving the EU isn’t it? And it’s going to get even worse on 1st January 2022 when the next raft of post-Brexit rules (reality) hits.
Why do you think Lord Frost has quit 13 days before that date? It’s not about government policy or because he’s one of Brexit Hardman Steve Baker’s anti-mask/ brigade. It’s him attempting to disown his own deal and to dissolve himself of the blame for how bad things are about to get.
But what do people who have been pointing this out for 5 and a half years know? We’re just a bunch of remoaners for pointing out what was sold to the UK by these charlatan, Unicorn salesmen.
I voted to leave, perhaps to my own naivety I never dreamed we would sign a deal so sh1tty. Pretending the deal we signed is anything other than terrible is very blinkered. I thought we would end up with a deal similar to Norway who have sensibly maintained their own 200 mile limit and their own currency, however we had Johnson’s half baked oven ready deal that even he knows is so crap he his trying to change it.
I voted to leave for what I thought were very good reasons and with good intentions-I made the wrong call. It’s that simple and I am embarrassed I did in hindsight.
“I know writers who use subtext and they’re all cowards.” –Garth Marenghi
Obviously we were assured by the charlatans that trade deals would be easy outside the EU.
Some were. The ones where we copy and pasted the trade deals we already sent had in place as part of EU memberships and mutually agreed to continue as before. I believe Japan is the best example of this. We just rolled over the deal the EU struck with Japan in 2018.
But the 2 new trade deals that were heralded as brilliant by Johnson and co were the deals struck with Australia and New Zealand.
Here’s Boris selling us the Australian trade deal unicorn from Summer 2020…
Obviously we were assured by the charlatans that trade deals would be easy outside the EU.
Some were. The ones where we copy and pasted the trade deals we already sent had in place as part of EU memberships and mutually agreed to continue as before. I believe Japan is the best example of this. We just rolled over the deal the EU struck with Japan in 2018.
But the 2 new trade deals that were heralded as brilliant by Johnson and co were the deals struck with Australia and New Zealand.
Here’s Boris selling us the Australian trade deal unicorn from Summer 2020…
Yep but don't forget, everybody knew exactly what they were voting for.
It’s a terrible situation for the government to be in at the moment. And am not defending this or any govt!!! With hindsight we’ve (the government) been made to look like fools. But, from a selfish point of view, they need to sort out the Irish protocol over here because stock on the shelves will become more and more threadbare. Xmas food that we are receiving has such poor dates on that people are reluctant to buy.
It’s a terrible situation for the government to be in at the moment. And am not defending this or any govt!!! With hindsight we’ve (the government) been made to look like fools. But, from a selfish point of view, they need to sort out the Irish protocol over here because stock on the shelves will become more and more threadbare. Xmas food that we are receiving has such poor dates on that people are reluctant to buy.
But according to the government it's nothing to do with Brexit at all ?? As stated everyone knew 100% what they were voting for. Looking forward to further surprises.
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
There is no point debating how much better off we are going to be I’ve done it on here for years it seems, there is no reasoning with entrenched remainers who just want to sadly see their Country fail! But for a bit of perspective I was winding up a lefty friend recently about the failure that is Joe Biden, and his answer was ‘he’s not even been in the job for 12 months’. Thankfully Brexit is here for our lifetime (sounds nice saying that) not just 4 years.
There is no point debating how much better off we are going to be I’ve done it on here for years it seems, there is no reasoning with entrenched remainers who just want to sadly see their Country fail! But for a bit of perspective I was winding up a lefty friend recently about the failure that is Joe Biden, and his answer was ‘he’s not even been in the job for 12 months’. Thankfully Brexit is here for our lifetime (sounds nice saying that) not just 4 years.
It’s brilliant you believe that, perhaps your life time but in truth it won’t be forever.
Ironic you mention ‘entrenched remainers’…they may not accept the result as you perceive but, and it’s a big but, they can give plenty of reasons why staying was the best option and why the leave campaign was nothing more than self obsessed careerist politicians that didn’t actually care, as has been proven. I’d argue it’s the staunch brexiteer that remain an issue, especially when so many that voted leave realise it was a daft thing to do and regret it…
But still, people will still buy the bullshit. The fact there’s anyone left that believes Boris is terrifying, let alone actually thought he was actually a brexiteer…
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
There is no point debating how much better off we are going to be I’ve done it on here for years it seems, there is no reasoning with entrenched remainers who just want to sadly see their Country fail! But for a bit of perspective I was winding up a lefty friend recently about the failure that is Joe Biden, and his answer was ‘he’s not even been in the job for 12 months’. Thankfully Brexit is here for our lifetime (sounds nice saying that) not just 4 years.
And yet there still isn’t one piece of evidence of anything positive at all to arise from brexit but hundreds of facts to the contrary. You won’t find a single economic expert who’ll tell you anything other than brexit being a grievous act of economic self harm. I’m still waiting for you to give us some or even one example of something we’ve taken back control of, or a law we were having to abide by that we can now be free from. Good luck with that. And it’s worth remembering…..the people who sold gullible bigots like you are the very same now inflicting wave after wave of corrupt, contemptuous, dishonest governance on us all. I mean, really, only a complete moron would still be wedded to brexit on that basis. Have a crack though….
And yet there still isn’t one piece of evidence of anything positive at all to arise from brexit but hundreds of facts to the contrary. You won’t find a single economic expert who’ll tell you anything other than brexit being a grievous act of economic self harm. I’m still waiting for you to give us some or even one example of something we’ve taken back control of, or a law we were having to abide by that we can now be free from. Good luck with that. And it’s worth remembering…..the people who sold gullible bigots like you are the very same now inflicting wave after wave of corrupt, contemptuous, dishonest governance on us all. I mean, really, only a complete moron would still be wedded to brexit on that basis. Have a crack though….
There is no point debating how much better off we are going to be I’ve done it on here for years it seems, there is no reasoning with entrenched remainers who just want to sadly see their Country fail! But for a bit of perspective I was winding up a lefty friend recently about the failure that is Joe Biden, and his answer was ‘he’s not even been in the job for 12 months’. Thankfully Brexit is here for our lifetime (sounds nice saying that) not just 4 years.
As someone once said..’a snidely little remark does not an argument make’. You don’t have one and you’re lined up with the scumbags running the show. Pipe down or make an argument/present a fact.
But we were going to have- Food shortages Border problems 😭we won’t be able to go on holiday to Europe😭 Armageddon at the ports A2 to Dover gridlocked No access to medicines Financial centre would collapse We wouldn’t be able to strike trade deals Company’s (like Honda😀) would be leaving in droves Unemployment would go through the roof Blah blah blah blah blah Bullshit😎
It’s a terrible situation for the government to be in at the moment. And am not defending this or any govt!!! With hindsight we’ve (the government) been made to look like fools. But, from a selfish point of view, they need to sort out the Irish protocol over here because stock on the shelves will become more and more threadbare. Xmas food that we are receiving has such poor dates on that people are reluctant to buy.
No the government have been made to look like the lying charlatans they are. Their “oven ready deal” was no such thing. It’s one thing lying about economic benefits and whatever else they put on the side of a bus, but to risk the Good Friday agreement and peace on the Island of Ireland is disgraceful. Theresa May understood the Irish border issue and the loonies like Brexit hardman Steve Baker pretended it wasn’t an issue & finished her off and put Boris in the job.
And don’t spout that rubbish about shelves in Northern Ireland being threadbare. They gave goods flowing uninhibited, without barriers from south of the border.
But we were going to have- Food shortages Border problems 😭we won’t be able to go on holiday to Europe😭 Armageddon at the ports A2 to Dover gridlocked No access to medicines Financial centre would collapse We wouldn’t be able to strike trade deals Company’s (like Honda😀) would be leaving in droves Unemployment would go through the roof Blah blah blah blah blah Bullshit😎
Try reading the governments own reports on the “benefits” of new trade deals they have struck. I mean the new ones as opposed to the copy and pasted deals we already had as an EU member. We won’t be short of trade deals because there will be a long line of countries ready to follow Australia & New Zealand ready to pull out pants down and dictate a terrible trade deal to us that the government in desperation will be only too eager to sign.
Work takes me to Swindon fairly frequently and you might not know this but the huge Honda site has shut forever. 3,000 direct redundancies and an estimated 4,000 more from the supply chain & related services.
No one competent said unemployment would go through the roof, the danger was always shortage of Labour due to EU citizens moving back and as due to the approach the retirement age of the end of the baby boomers and the huge drop in birthrate from the start of the 60s.
And border problems… you seen what happens in the English Channel when you try and enforce a border without cooperation or consideration for the country on the opposite side of that border.
And do some research on container ports backlogs, the price rise in container shipment to the UK from China & how many shipping companies refuse to deliver containers to UK ports due to the long wait they have to be unloaded.
I don’t blame anyone who was conned by the lies. I blame the liars. But I do find it pathetic when people try and claim everything is brilliant.
But we were going to have- Food shortages Border problems 😭we won’t be able to go on holiday to Europe😭 Armageddon at the ports A2 to Dover gridlocked No access to medicines Financial centre would collapse We wouldn’t be able to strike trade deals Company’s (like Honda😀) would be leaving in droves Unemployment would go through the roof Blah blah blah blah blah Bullshit😎
Yep lies along side the ones the leave campaign purported. Most people have moved on from the fraud of both campaigns. Still waiting for answers from the earlier question btw...
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
He ain’t going to answer that question because there are no answers and he’s not intelligent enough to realise that or articulate any sort of argument anyway.
Yep lies along side the ones the leave campaign purported. Most people have moved on from the fraud of both campaigns. Still waiting for answers from the earlier question btw...
Most remainers accepted the decision and have indeed move on, as for the rest merry Xmas you miserable twits🎅
Name one example of where we’ve taken back control? One measurable, indisputable economic benefit of brexit, and/or one law we had to abide by as part of the EU that we no longer have to obey….
Most remainers accepted the decision and have indeed move on, as for the rest merry Xmas you miserable twits🎅
Earlier question?
Yes you've just repeated what I stated.
Couple of questions:
I have yet to have a single Brexit supporter tell me of a single law that they didn't like which was imposed upon us by the EU - care to have a go ? Name as many as you like.
I have yet to have a single Brexit supporter tell me of a single law that we as a (dominant) country (with a large voting presence in EU) opposed but had imposed upon us as a country. Care to have a go ? Again name as many as you like.
Go on have a go,it's Christmas after all.
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
No the government have been made to look like the lying charlatans they are. Their “oven ready deal” was no such thing. It’s one thing lying about economic benefits and whatever else they put on the side of a bus, but to risk the Good Friday agreement and peace on the Island of Ireland is disgraceful. Theresa May understood the Irish border issue and the loonies like Brexit hardman Steve Baker pretended it wasn’t an issue & finished her off and put Boris in the job.
And don’t spout that rubbish about shelves in Northern Ireland being threadbare. They gave goods flowing uninhibited, without barriers from south of the border.
Where do you shop? Because when I go to sainsburys on the strand road, a lot of items that were readily available before are consistently out of of stock!
Name one example of where we’ve taken back control? One measurable, indisputable economic benefit of brexit, and/or one law we had to abide by as part of the EU that we no longer have to obey….
Im sure it was you but apologies if I’m wrong but I’m surprised you’re even questioning me, as the last time you smugly demanded a list was regarding all the black people that were against BLM! I eventually caved in and gave you a list as long your arm you then disappeared from here for a few months😂
You didn’t give an answer, you parroted some pre referendum guff about what some people said would happen; some of which was true and some of which was tripe. That is not an answer. The questions, for the umpteenth time, are:
Give us an example of one indisputable economic benefit of brexit
Give us one example of where we’ve ‘taken back control’ to positive effect
Give us one law that we had to abide by as part of the EU that we no longer have to obey
I mean, this really is the final attempt to engage you in informed and intelligent discussion…
You didn’t give an answer, you parroted some pre referendum guff about what some people said would happen; some of which was true and some of which was tripe. That is not an answer. The questions, for the umpteenth time, are:
Give us an example of one indisputable economic benefit of brexit
Give us one example of where we’ve ‘taken back control’ to positive effect
Give us one law that we had to abide by as part of the EU that we no longer have to obey
I mean, this really is the final attempt to engage you in informed and intelligent discussion…
You’re an idiot! that wasn’t my even my answer to the question which wasn’t even your question! These question were asked by the likes oddments Stadium and Aldi you’ve just jumped on the bandwagon. Some of my reply’s you may of missed-
FFS we are not even a year in, we are still paying billions into the EU! instead of sticking the boot in to your own Country have a look how things going in the EU? No to dissimilar I suspect… Best check in with the mouthpiece of the glorious EU remember him….Michel Barnier, so what’s he saying now as wannabe leader of France: "We must regain our legal sovereignty so that we are no longer subject to the rulings of the European Court of Justice or the European Court of Human Rights."😂😂😂 and I s he still banging the drum for open borders? 😂😂😂
Many positives already coming our way you want me to name 1 ok the security deal with Australia USA was a Brexiteer’s dream for me😍🇬🇧
Again we are not even a year in and still paying billions it’s called transition! Give it another 5 years at least and then make comment.
You need to understand that 12 months in your parroted questions are meaningless! We are still in a transition period with a Covid pandemic to deal with. As an ardent Brexiteer I fully expected a few years of pain we were told this in clearly. Expect a bumpy road we were were told well to be honest I would of been prepared to be eating grass rather than be ruled by a corrupt empire and truth be told I’m amazed how smooth the road as turned out so far. The recent picture released showing Ursula Leyen cosying up to the Pfeizer boss just days before announcing that she wants the EU to mandate the vaccines tells you everything you need to know about these illegitimates.
Many positives already coming our way you want me to name 1 ok the security deal with Australia USA was a Brexiteer’s dream for me😍🇬🇧
Can you explain what was so good about this deal? You've previously joined in agreement when Blair has been labelled a war monger, but you're happy that we continue to align ourselves with the biggest war mongering country that exists?
We are still in a transition period with a Covid pandemic to deal with. As an ardent Brexiteer I fully expected a few years of pain we were told this in clearly. Expect a bumpy road we were were told well to be honest I would of been prepared to be eating grass rather than be ruled by a corrupt empire and truth be told I’m amazed how smooth the road as turned out so far. The recent picture released showing Ursula Leyen cosying up to the Pfeizer boss just days before announcing that she wants the EU to mandate the vaccines tells you everything you need to know about these illegitimates.
You say they are a corrupt empire, but you pretty much say the exact same about our own government (see below), and you accuse them of cosying up to Pfizer too.
Pay attention I don’t trust the government full stop. I know you hate them and totally distrust them evil Tory’s but when it comes to the vaccines and lockdowns it’s….. Govern me more baby😂
“When Boris Johnson delivered Brexit he pulled the rug from under the care sector’s workforce. Now, the paltry offer of a one-year visa will likely fail to attract the numbers of care workers we so desperately need.
“We cannot afford another humiliating and damaging repeat of when a pitiful 27 EU lorry drivers applied for HGV visas in response to the driver shortage. The government needs to think again and offer three-year visas to carers with immediate effect.
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
Mogg has nothing and has added nothing since that time in terms of actually outlining and proving the tangible economic benefits of brexit. In my opinion James O’Brien, who is generally right about everything, destroys him.
Valid points from one side as far as I can see. Usual waffle and bullsh!t from Mogg, delivered in the most condescending and disinterested of tones.
How anyone can look at him and Boris Johnson and think yes, they are the people I want governing my life and my country, is astonishing to me.
But as I’ve said time and time again, morons fell for it. I’d normally reserve calling anyone that given it’s their right to vote but that’s all they can be.
I stood in a meeting whilst working for the LA during the election, and I kid you not a bloke who’s working his bollcoks off in an underfunded system, that’s been put under undue pressure since the coalition, who’s seen families fall apart due to lack of support and services and he actually said ‘Boris will get my vote, he’s like one of us’…in what flipping world does that make any sense…I literally just said ‘so you’re a millionaire incompetent buffoon with illegitimate kids knocking about’…silence…
It’s flipping baffling that people didn’t see leaving the EU as you said would negatively impact us, those pesky folk in Europe looking after their own.
As for Mogg, unless you’re a Victorian throw back millionaire who pays little tax then he literally represents nobody other than Scrooge and the bank manager in Mary poppins…
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
The one thing that has been forgotten is that the vote was for staying or leaving. Suddenly when the remainers lost it was decided that we must do a deal. I don't recall being asked to vote on a deal, just to vote on leaving or staying with no string attached.
Remainers within the government then decided to bring on conditions and terms to leave which were not part of the vote. Cameron, May and co. didn't want to leave so made it difficult. What we have now is not what people voted for but what has been installed upon the people by those who wanted us to stay.
Leave was leave as in adios, goodbye not what we have after 4+ years of so-called negotiations.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Right, so what are you saying? That the brexit we’ve got is the fault of remainders?! Isn’t it clear to you that there’s no such thing as ‘hard brexit’ when there are complex, technical arrangements that need to be considered’. The EU isn’t a golf club where you just cancel your subscription, have no further contact and go play somewhere else.
So if you were married for 40 years and you or your wife suddenly decided they wanted to leave, you wouldn't expect to negotiatie a divorce settlement agreement, access rights to children etc.? That seems a very naive expectation, doesn't it?
So with that clean break/hard brexit what did you expect to happen to:
Import taxes on goods & services EU people living in this country at the time UK people livining in the EU at the time Border in Northern Ireland The thousands of joint scientific & educational schemes/initiatives that the EU/UK had jointly funded? Financial Settlements Fishing & Farming Subsidies Aviation and Shipping Rules How the banking sector would operate Recognition of Food & other product standards The list is endless..
You don't appear to realise what a brainless thing it is to just say "we just want out".
The one thing that has been forgotten is that the vote was for staying or leaving. Suddenly when the remainers lost it was decided that we must do a deal. I don't recall being asked to vote on a deal, just to vote on leaving or staying with no string attached.
Remainers within the government then decided to bring on conditions and terms to leave which were not part of the vote. Cameron, May and co. didn't want to leave so made it difficult. What we have now is not what people voted for but what has been installed upon the people by those who wanted us to stay.
Leave was leave as in adios, goodbye not what we have after 4+ years of so-called negotiations.
One of the most idiotic posts I've ever read on here and that takes some doing.
You were lied to repeatedly by the current government. The remain camp told you what would happen and it has. Now you are blaming them.
I think everyone should get a vote but for reasons like DBs post there should be a theory test in order to get a voting licence or something so we know those that are voting are informed to a basic level. These decisions affect every body for a long period of time ffs.
So if you were married for 40 years and you or your wife suddenly decided they wanted to leave, you wouldn't expect to negotiatie a divorce settlement agreement, access rights to children etc.? That seems a very naive expectation, doesn't it?
So with that clean break/hard brexit what did you expect to happen to:
Import taxes on goods & services EU people living in this country at the time UK people livining in the EU at the time Border in Northern Ireland The thousands of joint scientific & educational schemes/initiatives that the EU/UK had jointly funded? Financial Settlements Fishing & Farming Subsidies Aviation and Shipping Rules How the banking sector would operate Recognition of Food & other product standards The list is endless..
You don't appear to realise what a brainless thing it is to just say "we just want out".
Right, so what are you saying? That the brexit we’ve got is the fault of remainders?! Isn’t it clear to you that there’s no such thing as ‘hard brexit’ when there are complex, technical arrangements that need to be considered’. The EU isn’t a golf club where you just cancel your subscription, have no further contact and go play somewhere else.
So why didn't all the above be included in the referendum? I only saw two words and two choices on the voting paper Remain and Leave.
No remainers cared two hoots about any of the above because they convinced themselves that the voters would vote to remain. Consequently, Cameron and Osbourne threw their dummies out and left the government because the vote didn't go their way.
Nobody planned for leaving because it wasn't going to happen until it did, and the government of the day left the nation unprepared.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
So why didn't all the above be included in the referendum? I only saw two words and two choices on the voting paper Remain and Leave.
No remainers cared two hoots about any of the above because they convinced themselves that the voters would vote to remain. Consequently, Cameron and Osbourne threw their dummies out and left the government because the vote didn't go their way.
Nobody planned for leaving because it wasn't going to happen until it did, and the government of the day left the nation unprepared.
That’s a complete cop-out on your part. First you’ve said it’s the remainers fault and now you’re saying it’s the government’s fault (which it is). When do the people like you, who said out means out, actually admit that you are at fault for not even considering what that actually meant in real life?
Jesus, you’re making humbercod look flipping bright.
So why didn't all the above be included in the referendum? I only saw two words and two choices on the voting paper Remain and Leave.
No remainers cared two hoots about any of the above because they convinced themselves that the voters would vote to remain. Consequently, Cameron and Osbourne threw their dummies out and left the government because the vote didn't go their way.
Nobody planned for leaving because it wasn't going to happen until it did, and the government of the day left the nation unprepared.
You just have to laugh at that.
But as said many times before ,everybody knew exactly what they were voting for. Now it seems its the fault of either the people who voted remain,the politicians in charge at the time and/or the government. 100% nothing to do with people who voted to leave.
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
So why didn't all the above be included in the referendum? I only saw two words and two choices on the voting paper Remain and Leave.
No remainers cared two hoots about any of the above because they convinced themselves that the voters would vote to remain. Consequently, Cameron and Osbourne threw their dummies out and left the government because the vote didn't go their way.
Nobody planned for leaving because it wasn't going to happen until it did, and the government of the day left the nation unprepared.
That’s a complete cop-out on your part. First you’ve said it’s the remainers fault and now you’re saying it’s the government’s fault (which it is). When do the people like you, who said out means out, actually admit that you are at fault for not even considering what that actually meant in real life?
Jesus, you’re making humbercod look flipping bright.
That’s a complete cop-out on your part. First you’ve said it’s the remainers fault and now you’re saying it’s the government’s fault (which it is). When do the people like you, who said out means out, actually admit that you are at fault for not even considering what that actually meant in real life?
Jesus, you’re making humbercod look flipping bright.
No cop-out Cameron and Osbourne were supporting the remaining camp. As for Humbercod, it's good that you have found something to praise him about, even beit at my expense.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
You’re gonna be really sad when we inevitably go back cap in hand and get absolutely ripped off but it’ll still better than this quagmire we find ourselves…
I’m just appalled, although I shouldn’t be at how easy people fell for it and actually believed what any of the idiots were saying…
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
You’re gonna be really sad when we inevitably go back cap in hand and get absolutely ripped off but it’ll still better than this quagmire we find ourselves…
I’m just appalled, although I shouldn’t be at how easy people fell for it and actually believed what any of the idiots were saying…
Are you naturally patronising, condescending and sanctimonious or do you really have to work at it?
“I know writers who use subtext and they’re all cowards.” –Garth Marenghi
You didn’t give an answer, you parroted some pre referendum guff about what some people said would happen; some of which was true and some of which was tripe. That is not an answer. The questions, for the umpteenth time, are:
Give us an example of one indisputable economic benefit of brexit
Give us one example of where we’ve ‘taken back control’ to positive effect
Give us one law that we had to abide by as part of the EU that we no longer have to obey
I mean, this really is the final attempt to engage you in informed and intelligent discussion…
Any update on the above......
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
No. Not that I’m aware. Because there is no answer. Nothing credible that could be referred to. Brexit is an economic disaster tantamount to imposing economic sanctions on yourself. End.
Wow you’re not giving up are you? You’re still trying to make a point about a referendum that happened nearly 6 years ago even whilst hospitals are being bombed is as low as it gets, I almost feel sad for you, you must go to bed stressed every night, are you taking anything? I’ve heard Temazepam works wonders.
I could go on about the benefits but 1 my mind is elsewhere in the world and 2. as I’ve already explained umpteenth times we have to look at this in 5-10 years for a true picture. But there are many promising signs just take a look at our export of goods for example we were told by the Remoaners no one would buy from us, yet last year we actually had an increase on the previous year.
I’ve given up trying to educate you on Brexit. You still haven’t f@cking learned how to use ‘of’ and ‘have’ correctly despite it being pointed out a dozen times, so you’re hardly likely to be someone who is open to evolving his knowledge and opinions. All your opinions are fixed, and from what I’ve seen on here, utterly boneheaded, including those expressed in relation to the war.
Why you’ve tried to use the appalling situation in Ukraine to try to make a point and level some sort of criticism of me I’m really not sure. You then go on to suggest that I must be insane or stressed and should be taking Temazepan, as though this was some sort of ‘fair game’ avenue of criticising someone, rather than an actual illness that deserves our compassion. For your reference, I have sertraline and counselling. Typical you to use an ad hominem (look it up) rather than construct some sort of credible argument.
Anxiety and depression doesn’t affect someone’s ability to learn, discuss and evolve an informed view. Many of us have had struggles. I’m pretty confident that if someone were to compare a range of your contributions on here to mine, they’d unanimously conclude that you were the one who’s views are suspect, stuck, flawed and nonsensical.
Wow you’re not giving up are you? You’re still trying to make a point about a referendum that happened nearly 6 years ago even whilst hospitals are being bombed is as low as it gets, I almost feel sad for you, you must go to bed stressed every night, are you taking anything? I’ve heard Temazepam works wonders.
I could go on about the benefits but 1 my mind is elsewhere in the world and 2. as I’ve already explained umpteenth times we have to look at this in 5-10 years for a true picture. But there are many promising signs just take a look at our export of goods for example we were told by the Remoaners no one would buy from us, yet last year we actually had an increase on the previous year.
When you do have time to list all the Brexit benefits can you please write them down in a big list and send then to the Sun newspaper like Jacob Rees-Mogg asked.
Because that’s how much of a steaming turd Brexit is. The Minister for Brexit opportunities having to ask Sun readers if they can think of anything that’s got better because he can’t think of any himself.
Taken back control of our borders haven’t we. Absolutely impossible system for people fleeing war and wanting to come to the UK. This is fuelled by lies and incompetence and a lack of compassion. Step forwards Pritti Patel, an unpunished proven bully, and Liz Truss. Absolutely out of their depth, incompetent hateful sycophants. This is what some of those who wanted Brexit voted for. We are a global disgrace, and, meanwhile….parliament is stuffed with lie after lie after lie from the government benches. Fastest growing economy in the G7? LIE! No country has done more than Britain to settle refugees? LIE. This is, by far and away, the most corrupt, incompetent, disgraceful government this country has ever seen, and the Brexit con is absolutely palpable and indisputable in every regard. When do the MET release their verdict on the indisputable lies relating to Covid parties? How people are not on the streets, tearing down the barricades and demanding these f*ckers are removed and replaced with people of ability, dignity, honour I’ll never know.
Taken back control of our borders haven’t we. Absolutely impossible system for people fleeing war and wanting to come to the UK. This is fuelled by lies and incompetence and a lack of compassion. Step forwards Pritti Patel, an unpunished proven bully, and Liz Truss. Absolutely out of their depth, incompetent hateful sycophants. This is what some of those who wanted Brexit voted for. We are a global disgrace, and, meanwhile….parliament is stuffed with lie after lie after lie from the government benches. Fastest growing economy in the G7? LIE! No country has done more than Britain to settle refugees? LIE. This is, by far and away, the most corrupt, incompetent, disgraceful government this country has ever seen, and the Brexit con is absolutely palpable and indisputable in every regard. When do the MET release their verdict on the indisputable lies relating to Covid parties? How people are not on the streets, tearing down the barricades and demanding these f*ckers are removed and replaced with people of ability, dignity, honour I’ll never know.
Your average Sun reader probably sees this as being a benefit of Brexit,
Tweet 1501182955498221573 will appear here...
This is just another anti Tory bitter post and quite ridiculous! Of course most of the refugees will flee to eastern countries, if Ireland was ever invaded don’t you think we would take the vast majority? besides with so many Polish over here now I’m sure they have plenty more room than us. I’ve read we have 17000 waiting to come with expected levels of up to 200,000 and rightly so.
Just for the record how many on that silly example have Ireland, Iceland and the Faroe Islands taken? Not many I bet, and what about the Scandinavian countries are they taking in Hundreds of thousands? Of course not. It’s just more UK bashing.
We are one of the most charitable countries in the world which is why every Tom male private and Abdul want to come here, we have been a safe haven for thousands of refugees, for a small island we can hold our head high, if only we had a tough immigration system where illegal immigrants are not put up in 4 star hotels to the tune of over a billion pound a year and counting! At least they will be nice and warm with 3 square meals whilst our own people will be sitting in darkness and freezing in their home!!! Liberals🤬
This is just another anti Tory bitter post and quite ridiculous! Of course most of the refugees will flee to eastern countries, if Ireland was ever invaded don’t you think we would take the vast majority? besides with so many Polish over here now I’m sure they have plenty more room than us. I’ve read we have 17000 waiting to come with expected levels of up to 200,000 and rightly so.
Just for the record how many on that silly example have Ireland, Iceland and the Faroe Islands taken? Not many I bet, and what about the Scandinavian countries are they taking in Hundreds of thousands? Of course not. It’s just more UK bashing.
We are one of the most charitable countries in the world which is why every Tom male private and Abdul want to come here, we have been a safe haven for thousands of refugees, for a small island we can hold our head high, if only we had a tough immigration system where illegal immigrants are not put up in 4 star hotels to the tune of over a billion pound a year and counting! At least they will be nice and warm with 3 square meals whilst our own people will be sitting in darkness and freezing in their home!!! Liberals🤬
I hope if we ever end up in a similar situation no country will take you in so you can understand how some of these people feel.
I hope if we ever end up in a similar situation no country will take you in so you can understand how some of these people feel.
Sorry James but where have I said I don’t want any genuine refugees! Because I fully support helping those in crisis, none of us can truly understand what they are going through because we lead such privileged lives, I can only imagine and the image is horrific I tell you. I’m hoping once all this is over and soon pray to god’s (why not) that I can get out there and help with the re-building in some way, if my firm can release and maybe sponsor me for as many months as needed.
This is just another anti Tory bitter post and quite ridiculous! Of course most of the refugees will flee to eastern countries, if Ireland was ever invaded don’t you think we would take the vast majority? besides with so many Polish over here now I’m sure they have plenty more room than us. I’ve read we have 17000 waiting to come with expected levels of up to 200,000 and rightly so.
Just for the record how many on that silly example have Ireland, Iceland and the Faroe Islands taken? Not many I bet, and what about the Scandinavian countries are they taking in Hundreds of thousands? Of course not. It’s just more UK bashing.
We are one of the most charitable countries in the world which is why every Tom male private and Abdul want to come here, we have been a safe haven for thousands of refugees, for a small island we can hold our head high, if only we had a tough immigration system where illegal immigrants are not put up in 4 star hotels to the tune of over a billion pound a year and counting! At least they will be nice and warm with 3 square meals whilst our own people will be sitting in darkness and freezing in their home!!! Liberals🤬
Ireland have taken 2500 at least and expect more, so more than twice as many as us, and no visa required. Just safety, comfort, nourishment and shelter first and foremost. Sort the paperwork out once that’s done. No visa required. Not sure how many Scandinavia have taken in total but Sweden have over 2500, so again, more than twice the amount we have. The current process we’ve set up is so complicated and drawn out that it could take these women and children several weeks to achieve safe shelter in the UK. We are the disgrace of Europe, and, I believe, many British people would welcome these poor souls with open, loving, caring arms. The government we have is hateful and corrupt and incompetent and a betrayal of the real and true British spirit and tradition.
Ireland have taken 2500 at least and expect more, so more than twice as many as us, and no visa required. Just safety, comfort, nourishment and shelter first and foremost. Sort the paperwork out once that’s done. No visa required. Not sure how many Scandinavia have taken in total but Sweden have over 2500, so again, more than twice the amount we have. The current process we’ve set up is so complicated and drawn out that it could take these women and children several weeks to achieve safe shelter in the UK. We are the disgrace of Europe, and, I believe, many British people would welcome these poor souls with open, loving, caring arms. The government we have is hateful and corrupt and incompetent and a betrayal of the real and true British spirit and tradition.
It’s fair to say they were slow out of the blocks but a year from now we know the UK will have proportionately more Ukrainian refugees then most of the other countries around the world.
It’s fair to say they were slow out of the blocks but a year from now we know the UK will have proportionately more Ukrainian refugees then most of the other countries around the world.
Of course we will because I don't see many of them rocking up in South America, Asia or Africa. In fear of their lives, these people are expected to access the internet and have a passport to make their way here. The only offer they have of a safe and comfortable home with someone they know may be here. Why do we need to make it difficult for them?
Of course we will because I don't see many of them rocking up in South America, Asia or Africa. In fear of their lives, these people are expected to access the internet and have a passport to make their way here. The only offer they have of a safe and comfortable home with someone they know may be here. Why do we need to make it difficult for them?
I don’t know maybe it’s a security issue, with over 40000 people already on the Mi5 watch list just maybe it’s actually their duty to check who is coming in. As much as I would like to see family members quick and easy access I also want our government to carry out their main justification to keep its own people safe.
It amazes me how being one of the richest countries we can always find a few billion to stump up around the world, yet and I will say it again we have a large proportion of people in this country who will not be able to keep their lights on, will not be able to feed their children healthy nutritious meals and forget heating their homes! This is happening now and I see it every day in damp dingy homes. Yes of course this doesn’t compare to being bombed but these are still humans living in misery. So for all you comfy liberals who are happy to see the foreign aid budget maintained and would like to see the flood gates opened up to half the world, please just consider those who are less well off struggling day to day, genuinely depressed living with constant worry. Can you not understand the anger at the thousands of illegals coming in daily, being put up in comfortable hotels can someone give me a liberal perspective in this so I can at least try to understand?
I earn a decent amount and I'm happy to pay my way when it comes to taxes if it means that the less fortunate and more vulnerable get the help they need from our government. Unfortunately this government squeezes the middle and working classes whilst allowing the rich to get richer at all of our expense. Those of us working find our pay packets stretched more and more thinly and the talk of investing in services is a lie. They can claim all they like they've built 40 new hospitals but you don't even need to dig deep to realise it's a lie. And that's just one example.
There's more than enough wealth in this country to allow us to feed, house, heat and treat all of our citizens AND to help out on a global scale when something disastrous like the Ukraine invasion occurs. However, until people stop voting for the tories and we have a grown up conversation on taxing wealth, not just income, then we will continue to live in a society that is progressively unequal and polarised.
I earn a decent amount and I'm happy to pay my way when it comes to taxes if it means that the less fortunate and more vulnerable get the help they need from our government. Unfortunately this government squeezes the middle and working classes whilst allowing the rich to get richer at all of our expense. Those of us working find our pay packets stretched more and more thinly and the talk of investing in services is a lie. They can claim all they like they've built 40 new hospitals but you don't even need to dig deep to realise it's a lie. And that's just one example.
There's more than enough wealth in this country to allow us to feed, house, heat and treat all of our citizens AND to help out on a global scale when something disastrous like the Ukraine invasion occurs. However, until people stop voting for the tories and we have a grown up conversation on taxing wealth, not just income, then we will continue to live in a society that is progressively unequal and polarised.
This is the camp I’m in but do you honestly think we would be in a better position if Labour had won the election.. be honest! The government now asking Britons to take in refugees is absolutely embarrassing, just maybe if they didn’t fill hotels with illegals we could offer better.
It amazes me how being one of the richest countries we can always find a few billion to stump up around the world, yet and I will say it again we have a large proportion of people in this country who will not be able to keep their lights on, will not be able to feed their children healthy nutritious meals and forget heating their homes! This is happening now and I see it every day in damp dingy homes. Yes of course this doesn’t compare to being bombed but these are still humans living in misery. So for all you comfy liberals who are happy to see the foreign aid budget maintained and would like to see the flood gates opened up to half the world, please just consider those who are less well off struggling day to day, genuinely depressed living with constant worry. Can you not understand the anger at the thousands of illegals coming in daily, being put up in comfortable hotels can someone give me a liberal perspective in this so I can at least try to understand?
Are you in favour of a one off windfall tax on the energy companies to enable British families to afford gas/elec via rebate?
This is the camp I’m in but do you honestly think we would be in a better position if Labour had won the election.. be honest! The government now asking Britons to take in refugees is absolutely embarrassing, just maybe if they didn’t fill hotels with illegals we could offer better.
We will never know for sure if it would have been better. Would our cabinet be awash with Russian money and influence? No. Would it be so obviously corrupt siphoning off billions of tax payers hard earned cash to their mates? No. So in that respect it would have been better.
I’ve had four £10m-£150m turnover clients (so far) this year, ask me to help them set up subsidiaries in Ireland (i.e. outside UK).
All owned by Brexit advocates who boasted how it would help the UK in the long run.
It may well do so, but there’s a hell of a lot of trade, professional fees, tax(!) and financial services now being pushed through Dublin 2.
All tried to ride it out for as long as possible and have admitted defeat as trade with the EU has become too difficult. More and more UK companies are having to blink first.
Well known liberal leftie firm E&Y say so far 7000 finance jobs have left the City of London.
Assuming that they pay on average £40,000 a year each in tax (quite a low average for that sector - it’s only 30% of £133k) that’s £280,000,000 lost to the Exchequer. What was it NEL got in levelling up funding?
#Self-harm in Grimsby
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Well known liberal leftie firm E&Y say so far 7000 finance jobs have left the City of London.
Assuming that they pay on average £40,000 a year each in tax (quite a low average for that sector - it’s only 30% of £133k) that’s £280,000,000 lost to the Exchequer. What was it NEL got in levelling up funding?
#Self-harm in Grimsby
It genuinely saddens me when you see Remainer’s who just can’t move on from 2016, I can almost feel your delight in any Brexit related negative news, but please at least tell the whole story - https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s.....-says-071115261.html
This report was released yesterday the same day as your story, And I would be amazed if you hadn’t picked up on it.
That report literally says that the losses weren't as bad as predicted, not that Brexit had been a success. Like having a housefire and saying it's been a positive thing cause only the roof has been burned to pieces and some of the walls are still standing.
That report literally says that the losses weren't as bad as predicted, not that Brexit had been a success. Like having a housefire and saying it's been a positive thing cause only the roof has been burned to pieces and some of the walls are still standing.
Not As bad as predicted, you mean the 100,000 we were told? Look It's a tiny fraction of the numbers employed and they are roles, not people. Many of those people will have been reallocated to other London-based jobs, including roles created in the UK because of Brexit the EY reports. If we’re being honest this is a non story really, a poor attempt at Brexit Britain bashing.
As for you’re analogy it would be more like a loose roof tile after a storm 😀
1) The number of financial services firms to have moved or that plan to move operations, staff and assets from the UK to Europe as a result of Brexit has stabilised over the last 12 months.
2) Since the UK’s EU referendum, 44% (97 out of 222) of the largest UK financial services firms* have announced plans to move some UK operations and/or staff to the EU – a figure that nearly doubled between March 2017 (53 out of 222, 24%) and March 2021 (95 out of 222, 43%)
3) Since the referendum, 24 firms have publicly declared they will transfer just over £1.3trn of UK assets to the EU – a figure which has remained broadly flat over the past 18 months
4) In the last quarter, the number of Brexit-related staff relocations to the EU has been further revised down, from 7,400 in December 2021 to just over 7,000 as March 2022 closes – significantly down from the peak of 12,500 announced in 2016
When it comes to those who have located, Paris scores highest, attracting around 2,800 UK employees, followed by Frankfurt (around 1,800) and Dublin (around 1,200).
How you can say 1.3 trillion (a trillion is a million million) is a loose roof tile, and yet bleat about the cost of a few refugees coming over is beyond me.
1) The number of financial services firms to have moved or that plan to move operations, staff and assets from the UK to Europe as a result of Brexit has stabilised over the last 12 months.
2) Since the UK’s EU referendum, 44% (97 out of 222) of the largest UK financial services firms* have announced plans to move some UK operations and/or staff to the EU – a figure that nearly doubled between March 2017 (53 out of 222, 24%) and March 2021 (95 out of 222, 43%)
3) Since the referendum, 24 firms have publicly declared they will transfer just over £1.3trn of UK assets to the EU – a figure which has remained broadly flat over the past 18 months
4) In the last quarter, the number of Brexit-related staff relocations to the EU has been further revised down, from 7,400 in December 2021 to just over 7,000 as March 2022 closes – significantly down from the peak of 12,500 announced in 2016
When it comes to those who have located, Paris scores highest, attracting around 2,800 UK employees, followed by Frankfurt (around 1,800) and Dublin (around 1,200).
How you can say 1.3 trillion (a trillion is a million million) is a loose roof tile, and yet bleat about the cost of a few refugees coming over is beyond me.
No one is bleating about a few refugees are they? And you know this! It’s the thousands of illegal migrants, mainly fighting age men filling 4 star hotels up at the cost of over a billion quid a year, whilst our own people are struggling to keep the lights never mind the heating, that gets people ‘bleating’.
No one is bleating about a few refugees are they? And you know this! It’s the thousands of illegal migrants, mainly fighting age men filling 4 star hotels up at the cost of over a billion quid a year, whilst our own people are struggling to keep the lights never mind the heating, that gets people ‘bleating’.
This is literally made up…by definition, it’s impossible to know how many there is because they’re illegal…but more importantly, this is tantamount to Farage style maths…
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
Anybody who clings to the wreckage of brexit is a total moron and absolutely out of touch with the facts. Politicians (who have since shown you their colours with lie after lie….) sold this tripe to people and experts tried in vain to tell us what would happen. Watch this utterly appalling obfuscation and tissue of lies.
And just in case you were in any doubt as to this man’s credentials, honour, integrity, understanding of Brexit reality and the appalling dismantling of our proud British democracy….
The issue of Europe has plagued the Tories for decades and they wanted out for reasons of party unity and nothing to do with the betterment of the nation.
I can't remember which Tory said it but he basically said, " We either destroy the Tory party or we destroy the country". They chose the second path.
So their reason for wanting to leave was the totally selfish act of staying in power, because without Brexit, they would have torn themselves apart. It's the reason Cameron agreed to a vote because he thought the country would vote to stay in and he could finally silence the Euro sceptics and banish them to the fringes. It cost him his job, and the country it's membership of the biggest trading block in the world.
The Tory Euro sceptics are the worst kind of right wing tossers who want to take us back to Victorian times and re-establish the class system, with them at the top of course. They and their media machine lied to you about their intentions and made you think you would be better off, when in reality, the only people better off are them and their kind. You all fell for it and are still defending the lying, cheating fookers, because you can't bring yourselves to admit you were duped, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
The issue of Europe has plagued the Tories for decades and they wanted out for reasons of party unity and nothing to do with the betterment of the nation.
I can't remember which Tory said it but he basically said, " We either destroy the Tory party or we destroy the country". They chose the second path.
So their reason for wanting to leave was the totally selfish act of staying in power, because without Brexit, they would have torn themselves apart. It's the reason Cameron agreed to a vote because he thought the country would vote to stay in and he could finally silence the Euro sceptics and banish them to the fringes. It cost him his job, and the country it's membership of the biggest trading block in the world.
The Tory Euro sceptics are the worst kind of right wing tossers who want to take us back to Victorian times and re-establish the class system, with them at the top of course. They and their media machine lied to you about their intentions and made you think you would be better off, when in reality, the only people better off are them and their kind. You all fell for it and are still defending the lying, cheating fookers, because you can't bring yourselves to admit you were duped, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
It would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.
All that and far worse to come. We need to be closer to Europe on most economic and geopolitical matters not moving further away. Right now is the time for a single market in manufactured goods made with clean energy. The residue of our manufacturing industry is about to be fecked by energy prices and now is the worst time to be relying on imports from China, especially with the need to increase military spending. The first zero-carbon steel plant is in Sweden, we could be manufacturing hydrogen when we have surplus wind power - hydrogen is important for reducing emissions from steel-making. Europe needs to lead the way and put huge tariffs on goods made with fossil fuel energy from China and India.
It won't be enough mind, the planet is heading for a 2.5 to 3-degree rise - (see Dieter Helm's book who is saying the 1.5 degree train has left the station https://agreatread.co.uk/net-zero-how-we-stop-causing-climate-change-9780008404468/. We could be heading for more conflict as a result - even more reason to be closely aligned with EU on climate change, manufacturing and military
Think Tank ‘British Future’ says that immigration into Britain has risen substantially from pre Brexit levels and the LSE says that relationships between buyers and sellers in the international trade business is down by a third since Brexit. A third! Meanwhile, British Airways moves its HQ to Spain due to staff shortages. These are Brexit facts.
The first year of the UK's post-Brexit trade agreement with the European Union (EU) saw firms on the continent lose a greater percentage volume of trade than exporters from the UK, according to the CEP.
Nose. Cut. Spite. Face. Funny how you all missed this one. 😂
The first year of the UK's post-Brexit trade agreement with the European Union (EU) saw firms on the continent lose a greater percentage volume of trade than exporters from the UK, according to the CEP.
Nose. Cut. Spite. Face. Funny how you all missed this one. 😂
Interesting if correct (I don't have time to check), but I don't think Humbo has really thought his point through.
European companies whose exports to the UK have fallen due to Brexit won't have had similar problems with their exports to other EU countries. One of their markets has been affected, but not the major one (for most of these companies).
UK companies, on the other hand, have had their exports to 27 countries badly affected.
Absolutely! He’s dense. Has Jacob Rees Mogg found a Brexit benefit yet, or is he just ghosting round Whitehall offices leaving passive aggressive messages because he can’t actually find any?
Brexit hasn't been the disaster I thought it would be...It's actually worse than I ever imagined.
This has been my take on it…you know it’s a disaster when kids, who show little interest in anything other than Snapchat, excrement weed and North Face tracksuits are recognising how disastrous it is…
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
Interesting if correct (I don't have time to check), but I don't think Humbo has really thought his point through.
European companies whose exports to the UK have fallen due to Brexit won't have had similar problems with their exports to other EU countries. One of their markets has been affected, but not the major one (for most of these companies).
UK companies, on the other hand, have had their exports to 27 countries badly affected.
Which is a higher number, 1 or 27?
Hopefully in time even the EU fanatics can accept that we imported far too much stuff we didn’t really need or would do better making for ourselves, we had a trade balance before joining the bloc which soon collapsed after joining and surprise surprise we are now seeing this imbalance improving significantly!
Just think that whilst our trade exports around the world continue to rise including with certain EU countries, we also see an ever increasing number of new trade deals. Yet one of the EU’s biggest trading partners has shrunk 25% this is huge and some would say (including me) this arrogance is well deserved.
Hopefully in time even the EU fanatics can accept that we imported far too much stuff we didn’t really need or would do better making for ourselves, we had a trade balance before joining the bloc which soon collapsed after joining and surprise surprise we are now seeing this imbalance improving significantly!
Just think that whilst our trade exports around the world continue to rise including with certain EU countries, we also see an ever increasing number of new trade deals. Yet one of the EU’s biggest trading partners has shrunk 25% this is huge and some would say (including me) this arrogance is well deserved.
Yeah, the shift in trade balance was all because of the EU and definitely not because Thatcher destroyed our industry and replaced it with a largely service economy.
A plausible reason for these developments is that the Brexit vote led to a sharp sterling depreciation, making the UK significantly more competitive while crimping domestic demand.
To simplify, the value of Sterling fell because the markets thought our future prospects were much poorer were following Brexit. This made imports more expensive so we spent less on them. One way of doing things, I suppose.
I'm also not sure the analysis of averaging 2020 and 2021 to come up with a £10 billion figure makes much sense. Brexit didn't begin until 2021 and the barriers to trade (which have shafted our EU business) have only been around since then. Yes, the pandemic was on in 2020, but trading terms were entirely different then to 2021 and now so I can't see the logic in averaging it out. The NIESR are normally on the ball, but that doesn't make sense to me. I suspect the deficit will remain very high during 2022 due to the difficulties in exporting.
As Golly noted, all our manufacturing was sold off decades ago and there hasn't been any concerted push to rebuild since Brexit. It would take decades more to build it up again even if there was the necessary government support (and there isn't).
Local MPs celebrating costs to both the tax payer and industry. Unbelievable. The delaying of the rules is blatantly to reduce the cost impact but it’s also a reflection on the following.. Despite Boris saying “f**k business and Gove saying business needs to be ready and if not it’s their fault , the government still do not have the infrastructure or staff to implement the rules. What a shambles . The government have issued a list of benefits into the parliamentary library and.one is genuinely stated as blue passports. Fact.
Reece Mogg being interviewed in a Tory party meet and greet claims a benefit of Brexit is we can work towards reducing the cost of declarations of goods imported from the EU with a view to abolishing them . The new declarations are totally due to Brexit so he’s claiming a benefit is the ability to reduce an added cost directly due to Brexit. As for abolishing declarations are we just importing without knowing what’s in each container? That would be interesting as we would have no idea what’s being imported from the eu or the rest of the world and any tariffs would be meaningless . Here we are with. nearly seven years for Boris and Co.to have some ideas on benefits and there are still none. Brexit was tax avoidance and to allow the Tory party a villain to blame for their years of enabling theft and incompetence.
The new levelling up fund is a fraction of the money cut from the Grimsby areas budgets over the last decade and voters lap it up as great news. Anyone who is on an average or low wage and votes Tory must be mad or have a very nasty case of Stockholm syndrome.
Oh I wouldn’t go that far, as a former ( years ago) Tory voter myself.
Through my business I got closer to the powers that be in government and realised they aren’t working for the voters they’re working for a select few. The fact that over 60% of MPs are chosen by just two offices in London then parachuted into a constituency shows who’s making the choices and it’s not the voters. You are told who you can vote for.
The bias media also has a lot to answer for. The owner of the Daily Mail for instance. He was born here, lives in Wiltshire and his father is English. His father however, later took up residency in France so that his son who now owns the mail group could declare non domicile status to avoid U.K. tax. The offshore trust which owns the mail group is also based offshore to avoid U.K. tax and its sole beneficiary is yes you guessed it Lord Harmsworth the son. The Mail group claim they pay U.K. tax and indeed they do but they fail to inform everyone it’s mostly PAYE, NI from their staff and business rates with very little tax on profits. The family has avoided hundreds of millions in tax this way. Remember that when their headlines complain about how generous benefits are or benefit cheats.
Another tax avoiding similar business is JCB again owned by the family trust in the Caribbean to avoid U.K. tax. The mail and JCB pushed for Brexit. JCB said it would help their exports to the rest of the world. Well their exports were already booming in China and India. So much so in fact they built factories in China and India. That didn’t create many jobs or tax revenue in the U.K. did it! Where’s the Brexit benefit?
When you know the set ups of these people you realise just why they throw so much support and money at the Tory party and it’s to protect the status quo. The large number of Prime Ministers coming from Eaton School isn’t a coincidence folks.
Reece Mogg’s investment company moved to Ireland just in case over Brexit and to benefit from a cheaper tax regime where others such as Google Amazon, Starbucks etc are also registered to avoid U.K. tax. Not only that but the money Mogg avoids paying in tax along with his investors cash in invested mostly outside of the U.K. in such places as China and India. Why would he want free trade I wonder?. Nothing to see here and certainly no hard import restrictions to worry about if a deal is done. Great for the workers of the world but not so great if you work in the U.K.
People in Russia believe what they want to believe and it’s re-enforced by the media they are fed but as we know it’s not the truth. . 85% of the media both national and local ( yes including Grimsby live) in this country is controlled by just a handful of organisations, all of which benefit from out of date relaxed tax rules.
Brexit was a con. I hope your tax rises don’t hurt too much everyone. Well obviously not quite everyone needs to worry.
Oh and just for the record Boris before he became a minister was paid £60k a year by JCB for consultancy services. There was no record of him doing any work. David Davis was on £20k a year but he had to turn up to eight meetings a year.
Epitome of thick - the DUP; Boris in pythonesque parrot sketch style denies there is a border down the Irish sea in his stunningly creative Brexit deal to move a line on a map, and they fell for it. They backed Brexit when it was blatantly obvious it would accelerate the impetus towards a united Ireland, and surprise surprise, here we are with Sinn Fein streets ahead in the election. The Republic is a very different country now from when "home rule means Rome rule" applied, it is a more socially liberal country than the UK now - it may take a good few years yet but there is momentum towards unification. That is all on the Tories and the incompetent DUP. The majority of English people don't give shite mind...
Epitome of thick - the DUP; Boris in pythonesque parrot sketch style denies there is a border down the Irish sea in his stunningly creative Brexit deal to move a line on a map, and they fell for it. They backed Brexit when it was blatantly obvious it would accelerate the impetus towards a united Ireland, and surprise surprise, here we are with Sinn Fein streets ahead in the election. The Republic is a very different country now from when "home rule means Rome rule" applied, it is a more socially liberal country than the UK now - it may take a good few years yet but there is momentum towards unification. That is all on the Tories and the incompetent DUP. The majority of English people don't give shite mind...
Due to the troubles the younger generations in NI have always been on very well educated in regard to politics. So the majority of NI knew why it was a good thing to stay part of the EU.
Sadly England voters believed the daily Mail.
It’s interesting how I’ve got a couple of red crosses above and yet no one has printed out anything that was incorrect with my post. Are the red crossers the tug of the forelock Tory supporters who know their place ? There’s is not to question why theirs is just to do think how the Daily Mail tells them.
People should look up the Tufton Street Mafia (57 Tufton street London ) Now there’s a group of lobbyists who influence the debate in Britain . They have a massive amount of influence and don’t give a flying intercourse about the state of towns like Grimsby. When will people learn todays Tory party is not what it seems.
As the Brexit deal collapses into farce more and more by the day it seems very strange that the usually vocal Mark Francois has gone all quiet. Is he okay?
Not many of the brexiteers from earlier in this thread claiming what a success it's been is there?
We said what would happen and it has, but even worse than imagined.
Us remoaners and our fake news.
Erm…we are heading into a cost of living (lockdown)crisis! The same as Spain, France, Germany, Greece, Italy etc. Nothing at all to do with the Brexit we haven’t got in its entirety. Brexit or no Brexit we would still be suffering high inflation and heading into a recession right now, and yes just like the rest of the EU!!! On a positive our unemployment rates remain low -
Spain 12.5% Italy 8.1% France 7.3% Germany 5.4% United Kingdom 3.8% But I wouldn’t claim as a result of Brexit 😉
Erm…we are heading into a cost of living (lockdown)crisis! The same as Spain, France, Germany, Greece, Italy etc. Nothing at all to do with the Brexit we haven’t got in its entirety. Brexit or no Brexit we would still be suffering high inflation and heading into a recession right now, and yes just like the rest of the EU!!! On a positive our unemployment rates remain low -
Spain 12.5% Italy 8.1% France 7.3% Germany 5.4% United Kingdom 3.8% But I wouldn’t claim as a result of Brexit 😉
Yeah right.
Your lot are still blaming the labour party despite being in power for 12 years.
Everything is always someone else's fault. Europe, red tape, immigrants, Muslims, single mothers, dole cheats, unpatriotic brits, the previous government etc.
Erm…we are heading into a cost of living (lockdown)crisis! The same as Spain, France, Germany, Greece, Italy etc. Nothing at all to do with the Brexit we haven’t got in its entirety. Brexit or no Brexit we would still be suffering high inflation and heading into a recession right now, and yes just like the rest of the EU!!! On a positive our unemployment rates remain low -
Spain 12.5% Italy 8.1% France 7.3% Germany 5.4% United Kingdom 3.8% But I wouldn’t claim as a result of Brexit 😉
Gold Star coming your way tomorrow.
Today's Gold Star already used up on the Zac Shaw thread.
Truth hurts.
When Leeds trainer Les Cocker was once told Norman Hunter had broken a leg, he asked: “Whose is it?”
Your lot are still blaming the labour party despite being in power for 12 years.
Everything is always someone else's fault. Europe, red tape, immigrants, Muslims, single mothers, dole cheats, unpatriotic brits, the previous government etc.
You were duped and you can't face facts.
Sorry to hear your still hurting over Brexit but could you explain what you mean by ‘Yeah right’ and ‘Your Lot’? For the record I’m no Tory and I’ve made this clear on numerous occasions, I have no affiliation with any political party, voting for all the 3 main party’s in my lifetime. Or maybe you mean Brexiteer’s? Many Labour voters would’ve voted for Brexit so this wouldn’t make sense. Please clarify🥴
Erm…we are heading into a cost of living (lockdown)crisis! The same as Spain, France, Germany, Greece, Italy etc. Nothing at all to do with the Brexit we haven’t got in its entirety. Brexit or no Brexit we would still be suffering high inflation and heading into a recession right now, and yes just like the rest of the EU!!! On a positive our unemployment rates remain low -
Spain 12.5% Italy 8.1% France 7.3% Germany 5.4% United Kingdom 3.8% But I wouldn’t claim as a result of Brexit 😉
Perhaps Spanish people could come live here then fill some of the tens of thousands of vacancies in the NHS. Even just answer the phone at the GP Surgery.
Some train and bus drivers would be good as well.
I would also have liked a Spanish student over here learning English perhaps to serve me a beer at the Leyton Technical pub before the Orient game…
Unemployment is low because our productivity is in the fecking toilet in comparison to other Western economies. Probably due to underemployment with people employed in loads of McShit jobs.
Yes, we are hugely unproductive in comparison to our peers. Here's a link from 4 years ago and things haven't got any better since then:
Don’t forget that the tories sodomist about with statistics to ensure unemployment is low…
Aside from most production being done elsewhere and there seemingly a raft of jobs available which contradicts what government lie to us about…
Both main parties are culpable for the abject failures in our higher education system. Labour massively ramped up University places alongside introduction of tuition fees, and undercooked incentives for trade apprenticeships. The Tories have made it far far worse - Osbourne scrapping bursaries for nurses and lo and behold we are short of tens of thousands of them.
We need to install millions of heat pumps in the next 15 years to get to net zero - not a fecking hope in hell. Older gas engineers will just retire rather than retrain and we are ten of thousands short of apprentices going into the trade and construction.
Both main parties are culpable for the abject failures in our higher education system. Labour massively ramped up University places alongside introduction of tuition fees, and undercooked incentives for trade apprenticeships. The Tories have made it far far worse - Osbourne scrapping bursaries for nurses and lo and behold we are short of tens of thousands of them.
We need to install millions of heat pumps in the next 15 years to get to net zero - not a fecking hope in hell. Older gas engineers will just retire rather than retrain and we are ten of thousands short of apprentices going into the trade and construction.
Forget heat pumps they are practically useless, I know heating engineers who are getting jobs to remove heat pumps and reinstalling gas boilers. Let’s be honest Net Zero is just pie in the sky and it’s time we stopped banging on about it, these energy companies are earning billions make them invest in innovation from the profits. We could cut these green levy’s now and help the people living today.
Forget heat pumps they are practically useless, I know heating engineers who are getting jobs to remove heat pumps and reinstalling gas boilers. Let’s be honest Net Zero is just pie in the sky and it’s time we stopped banging on about it, these energy companies are earning billions make them invest in innovation from the profits. We could cut these green levy’s now and help the people living today.
They're not useless but they're not as effective as gas and far more costly to run. They're also not very easily retrofitted if a house had a gas boiler initially. They've come on a lot in the last few years but have still got some way to go before they're as good as gas. (Other half works for one of the big six energy companies in the heating network)
They're not useless but they're not as effective as gas and far more costly to run. They're also not very easily retrofitted if a house had a gas boiler initially. They've come on a lot in the last few years but have still got some way to go before they're as good as gas. (Other half works for one of the big six energy companies in the heating network)
They are actually more efficient than gas and direct electric, especially for hot water, but they are more costly to run in poorly insulated homes with the price differential between gas and electricity per unit as at present.
These are cheaper to run than gas or direct immersion for hot water https://www.heatershop.co.uk/dimplex-edl200uk and are good for retrofit especially for homes that already have a HW cylinder in a cupboard near an outside wall. I agree heat pumps are not a ubiquitous solution for older homes and also not necessarily the right solution for central heating for smaller new build homes. For larger new build homes air source heat pumps are probably the way forward. Government is just making a wave of the hand assumption that we install millions of them to hit net zero though.
They are actually more efficient than gas and direct electric, especially for hot water, but they are more costly to run in poorly insulated homes with the price differential between gas and electricity per unit as at present.
These are cheaper to run than gas or direct immersion for hot water https://www.heatershop.co.uk/dimplex-edl200uk and are good for retrofit especially for homes that already have a HW cylinder in a cupboard near an outside wall. I agree heat pumps are not a ubiquitous solution for older homes and also not necessarily the right solution for central heating for smaller new build homes. For larger new build homes air source heat pumps are probably the way forward. Government is just making a wave of the hand assumption that we install millions of them to hit net zero though.
Hot water is crap when the temperature drops customers and installers are finding out. I would think that given the choice they would opt for a gas boiler all day long. Ive been to a few properties myself and from what the customers tell me is that the excellent government incentives made the decision, but unless they’re installed correctly they will be totally useless.
re: heat pumps - the house has to be a brand new house designed for being run using heat pumps in order to see the benefit and in this set-up they can be fantastic - more so ground source but you need a lot of spare ground to do that properly and currently everyone pushes air source because you can bang more plots in.
Retro -fitting is like buying an expensive new bucket with holes in. There's also issues around what air source and ground source can realistically deliver above ground level, where they work best with underfloor heating, and quite a few installations still require a conventional natural gas boiler for upper floors.
Tbh, heat pumps are going to be forgotten in 10 years when hydrogen hits the market. The next gen of boilers aren't being designed to be electric so the 2025/2030 plan to scrap gas boilers is nonsense, they are being designed to just remove the gas valve and control board and swap in hydrogen ready parts, then the generation after that will be hydrogen ready.
re: heat pumps - the house has to be a brand new house designed for being run using heat pumps in order to see the benefit and in this set-up they can be fantastic - more so ground source but you need a lot of spare ground to do that properly and currently everyone pushes air source because you can bang more plots in.
Retro -fitting is like buying an expensive new bucket with holes in. There's also issues around what air source and ground source can realistically deliver above ground level, where they work best with underfloor heating, and quite a few installations still require a conventional natural gas boiler for upper floors.
Tbh, heat pumps are going to be forgotten in 10 years when hydrogen hits the market. The next gen of boilers aren't being designed to be electric so the 2025/2030 plan to scrap gas boilers is nonsense, they are being designed to just remove the gas valve and control board and swap in hydrogen ready parts, then the generation after that will be hydrogen ready.
Absolutely spot on, Hydrogen is the most sustainable option and billions are being invested into the infrastructure. Gas mains are being replaced at at rapid rate to allow 100% Hydrogen to flow throw the gas networks within the next 5-10 years. Check out the Ellesmere port hydrogen village project for anyone interested as to what the future will be.
re: heat pumps - the house has to be a brand new house designed for being run using heat pumps in order to see the benefit and in this set-up they can be fantastic - more so ground source but you need a lot of spare ground to do that properly and currently everyone pushes air source because you can bang more plots in.
Retro -fitting is like buying an expensive new bucket with holes in. There's also issues around what air source and ground source can realistically deliver above ground level, where they work best with underfloor heating, and quite a few installations still require a conventional natural gas boiler for upper floors.
Tbh, heat pumps are going to be forgotten in 10 years when hydrogen hits the market. The next gen of boilers aren't being designed to be electric so the 2025/2030 plan to scrap gas boilers is nonsense, they are being designed to just remove the gas valve and control board and swap in hydrogen ready parts, then the generation after that will be hydrogen ready.
I think all new-build properties ought to be using ground source heat pumps where feasible (and spending a relatively tiny amount extra to improve the standard of the insulation in new housing is a no-brainer). However, I personally think that burning hydrogen directly in boilers to heat homes is way, way too risky. The molecules are so tiny that they can permeate through most pipework/joints and cause embrittlement in the process. The gas is also odourless (not sure of the feasibility of adding an odoir as with natural gas), add to that, a hydrogen flame is almost invisible and the explosion risk is too high.
Recent advances in efficiency of production (i.e. not just reformation from natural gas) make me think it will have a use as an energy storage medium (in specific situations) and perhaps as a fuel source for some vehicles, but this isn't something we want to be getting inside our houses.
I'll just add, my preference would be widespread use of nuclear power, alongside renewables, of course.
The use of expensive, untested designs such as the EPR were currently paying EDF an absolute mint to build (given then long-term pricing structure agreed) are better than nothing but, truthfully, we'd be better off building a load of older designs (if we still had the ability to do so) and investing the extra money in reprocessing and new reactor designs able to use the spent fuel.
I think all new-build properties ought to be using ground source heat pumps where feasible (and spending a relatively tiny amount extra to improve the standard of the insulation in new housing is a no-brainer). However, I personally think that burning hydrogen directly in boilers to heat homes is way, way too risky. The molecules are so tiny that they can permeate through most pipework/joints and cause embrittlement in the process. The gas is also odourless (not sure of the feasibility of adding an odoir as with natural gas), add to that, a hydrogen flame is almost invisible and the explosion risk is too high.
Recent advances in efficiency of production (i.e. not just reformation from natural gas) make me think it will have a use as an energy storage medium (in specific situations) and perhaps as a fuel source for some vehicles, but this isn't something we want to be getting inside our houses.
Yes up to 20% hydrogen in the mix for domestic gas supply is mooted, reduces carbon emissions by 20%. The hydrogen manufactured by the surplus renewable generation as an energy store will mainly be for industrial use - especially steel. Not sure it will save Scunthorpe works mind.
Thing is, we need to replace 100% of natural gas/fossil fuel usage to have a chance of reining in climate change. It's doable (steel can be produced using electricity and hydrogen, for example), but requires greater production of electricity. A moonshot/Manhattan Project sort of thing, but we're only tinkering around the edges and there's no evidence that anyone is really taking it seriously. Small Modular Reactors seem to be the likeliest route at present (though not perhaps the most efficient usage of resources), simply because it looks as though their use is going to be authorised relatively quickly. Still not going to be enough, however.
A moonshot on insulting housing obviously required as well and that's something which could be done within just a few years. No political will to do so from any of the major parties in this country though.
Yes up to 20% hydrogen in the mix for domestic gas supply is mooted, reduces carbon emissions by 20%. The hydrogen manufactured by the surplus renewable generation as an energy store will mainly be for industrial use - especially steel. Not sure it will save Scunthorpe works mind.
20% will be mixed into the existing gas supply in around 2025 with a complete switch over to 100% hydrogen in stages from around 2030.
What’s the matter Chaos do you hate the fact that I’m taking part in a grown up debate that you’ve got nothing to add …very childish.
Nope.
You’re not taking part in a debate. You’re making yourself look silly because you don’t understand, can’t evolve your view based on data and evidence and you can’t demonstrate basic literacy standards that we demand of our 6 year olds.
You’re not taking part in a debate. You’re making yourself look silly because you don’t understand, can’t evolve your view based on data and evidence and you can’t demonstrate basic literacy standards that we demand of our 6 year olds.
We’re discussing future energy you fool. Is there anybody left on the fishy that you haven’t had a go at with regards to grammar😂 I’ve noticed it’s not just me, the thing is No one gives a intercourse but if it makes you feel all billy big bollox I’m pleased for for you because I wouldn’t want you getting depressed now.
We’re discussing future energy you fool. Is there anybody left on the fishy that you haven’t had a go at with regards to grammar😂 I’ve noticed it’s not just me, the thing is No one gives a intercourse but if it makes you feel all billy big bollox I’m pleased for for you because I wouldn’t want you getting depressed now.
What I find low is for someone who alleges mental health to then jump on anyone who’s views he disagrees with, more often than not someone else’s bandwagon, politics or even someone’s religion he gets quite abusive at times. When I’ve pointed out to him he’s verging on bullying he’s then mocked and joked about it.
After all of those appalling comments and untruths, I am not willing to converse with you ever again. Waste of time and energy trying to get you to consider other views and learn things. I have called you out, insulted you and shown you to be stupid and incapable of evolving your knowledge and views. To be fair, you’ve shown that yourself too. I have never ever abused you, and I’ve certainly never ‘bullied’ you. I don’t have that power, and you don’t have a victim mentality. You’re against all that snowflake and woke stuff. You can’t have it both ways.
When you had Covid I sent you a PM wishing you good health and a speedy recovery. The comment you made about my depression was sick, stone-hearted and utterly distasteful.
After all of those appalling comments and untruths, I am not willing to converse with you ever again. Waste of time and energy trying to get you to consider other views and learn things.[/b] I have called you out, insulted you and shown you to be stupid and incapable of evolving your knowledge and views. To be fair, you’ve shown that yourself too. I have never ever abused you, and I’ve certainly never ‘bullied’ you. I don’t have that power, and you don’t have a victim mentality. You’re against all that snowflake and woke stuff. You can’t have it both ways.
When you had Covid I sent you a PM wishing you good health and a speedy recovery. The comment you made about my depression was sick, stone-hearted and utterly distasteful.
These were your words whilst sticking the boot in…..
Don’t be such a snowflake. You’re turning this board WoKE. Oooh, there are bullies on here (people who disagree with me because I’m wrong). I’m a victim. Cancel the ‘bullies[b]’.😢
Not very compassionate are you Chaos? Now I’ve read your comments on the other topic and I’ve always kept out of that one out of respect, but I found it incredible that you of all people could then come on this topic and mock and joke about bullying, you can’t have both ways!
You are correct to say that I don’t have a victim mentality, if I felt upset from some hurty words I would of stopped posting a long time ago, but not everyone is like me, and too many times I’ve seen that those with a minority view getting ganged up on and ridiculed without reason.
All said and done if I’ve genuinely upset you Chaos then I apologise. My intentions have always been for good banter but I will accept what you’re saying if I have crossed a line.
I suppose the pound slumping to an all time low against the dollar is because of the pandemic as well. And not the markets showing they have no confidence in this government or our economy.
Absolutely spot on, Hydrogen is the most sustainable option and billions are being invested into the infrastructure. Gas mains are being replaced at at rapid rate to allow 100% Hydrogen to flow throw the gas networks within the next 5-10 years. Check out the Ellesmere port hydrogen village project for anyone interested as to what the future will be.
Update… Grimsby or Scunthorpe have been shortlisted for the country’s first Hydrogen town. Great news for the area.
Update… Grimsby or Scunthorpe have been shortlisted for the country’s first Hydrogen town. Great news for the area.
That is good news. There was chatter about making the Humber the renewable energy hub a few years ago, I hope this is something that is expanded on and sees the area get the investment it needs.
The question, is where do they get the hydrogen from? Bear in mind that the vast majority of hydrogen at present is produced via steam reformation of natural gas. If the hydrogen to be blended into the natural gas pipes is reformed from natural gas, it will actually be a waste of energy and will emit more CO2 into the atmosphere because carbon capture still isn't a thing.
Due to the losses incurred in creation and storage, Hydrogen is only a good energy storage medium if you have massive excess of carbon-free energy from renewable (or nuclear) and need somewhere to store the energy in large quantities. The technology for this doesn't exist quite yet, though there are some more efficient hydrolysis methods being developed and research into storage continues apace.
Ultimately, we'd be much, much better off building a load of new Nuclear power stations and moving wholesale to use electricity for heating, alongside massive public investment in heat pumps and insulation. We're likely to have decades of burning our way through more natural gas before we get to a stage where 'Green' hydrogen has much of an impact. The Small Modular Reactors under development would be useful for local heat generation as well as electricity but, again, I think these are too many years away to be as effective as just going big for conventional large reactors straight away. We don't need to build EPRs which are massively over-engineered and still really under development. Plenty of other reactor types are cheaper and just as effective, but unfortunately, it's not likely to happen.
The problem is that Government energy policy is effectively run by the oil companies so no chance of this happening and the climate will continue to go down the shitter because of it.
Ultimately, we'd be much, much better off building a load of new Nuclear power stations and moving wholesale to use electricity.
The problem is that Government energy policy is effectively run by the oil companies so no chance of this happening and the climate will continue to go down the shitter
Nuclear power stations should be an option it’s just the time scale. From what I was told today they are aiming to have hydrogen in the town or Scunthorpe within 8 years, blended up to 20% before going full 100% after a few years. This will mean everybody’s gas appliances will need converting or replacing, the gas appliance manufacturers would need to start producing their new appliances hydrogen ready soon after the announcement.
Wholesale electric wouldn’t work without massive infrastructure change and again it’s about the time, a lot of the network is already nearing full capacity and if everybody went full electric to power their homes and cars the national grid would simply blow.
I think the oil company’s are realising they’re on borrowed time the likes of Shell and BP are already committing to Hydrogen with massive investments.
The boiler manufacturers are already on it, the next gen of boilers are being designed with a mandate that they can swap the gas train etc to run on pure hydrogen within 30 minutes. That way, they can switch off the gas main to a street, send a group of engineers in at 6am and have all the houses ready to run on hydrogen at 6pm, then switch on the hydrogen main to that street. That's their ideal world scenario for a rollout. In a few years time expect the smart meter adverts to stop, and the 'smart boiler' adverts to begin to push everyone towards it.
Most of the boilers entering the market currently only need a new PCB and gas valve to swap over anyway, they just want a fast process to work to.
Problem is that current pipework simply isn't capable of supplying 100% hydrogen gas, even if we had it available to use. It is possible to blend in some hydrogen into the methane we currently use, but over a certain proportion, it will begin to escape the pipework, embrittle metal fittings etc and cause the danger of leaks. We're talking about an explosive, odourless gas here which burns with an almost invisible flame in daylight.
I'm pretty sure the 'Hydrogen town' concept is little more than greenwashing by the oil/gas supply companies.
Problem is that current pipework simply isn't capable of supplying 100% hydrogen gas, even if we had it available to use. It is possible to blend in some hydrogen into the methane we currently use, but over a certain proportion, it will begin to escape the pipework, embrittle metal fittings etc and cause the danger of leaks. We're talking about an explosive, odourless gas here which burns with an almost invisible flame in daylight.
I'm pretty sure the 'Hydrogen town' concept is little more than greenwashing by the oil/gas supply companies.
I have to agree tbh, you'd have thought ever since the early zeppelin disasters we'd have given up on Hydrogen as an idea for domestic houses.....
I have to agree tbh, you'd have thought ever since the early zeppelin disasters we'd have given up on Hydrogen as an idea for domestic houses.....
On the other hand, our politicians could give it a try out at Parliament. Call for a full sitting of both houses and If it works great and if things go with a bang we'll know to doesn't work and got rid of a load of rubbish at the same time.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
On the other hand, our politicians could give it a try out at Parliament. Call for a full sitting of both houses and If it works great and if things go with a bang we'll know to doesn't work and got rid of a load of rubbish at the same time.
The lack of expenses claims after that alone would fund a new hospital, DB Fawkes! You could be onto something here......
Problem is that current pipework simply isn't capable of supplying 100% hydrogen gas, even if we had it available to use. It is possible to blend in some hydrogen into the methane we currently use, but over a certain proportion, it will begin to escape the pipework, embrittle metal fittings etc and cause the danger of leaks. We're talking about an explosive, odourless gas here which burns with an almost invisible flame in daylight.
I'm pretty sure the 'Hydrogen town' concept is little more than greenwashing by the oil/gas supply companies.
The majority of all the old metallic gas mains and services in Grimsby/ Scunthorpe have been replaced with polyethylene, the remaining will be replaced over the next few years, the nationwide replacement target is 2032 so they are certainly cracking in with it.
Brexiteer and serial lobbyist Owen Paterson who previously argued the UK should leave the European Court Of Human Rights is now taking the UK government to the European Court Of Human Rights to challenge the findings that he repeatedly broke rules on paid advocacy. What an absolute whopper.
"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
Statements from both the UK fisheries minister and the Scottish cabinet secretary for rural affairs claiming a successful outcome to negotiations with Norway on 2023 fishing opportunities were given a less than warm reception by many in the fishing industry last week, reports Andy Read.
The Norwegian purser Røttingøy landing to Pelagia Shetland in June. The UK and Norway have renewed access to catch up to 20,000t of herring in each other’s waters. (Photo: Sydney Sinclair)
Shetland Fishermen’s Association executive officer Simon Collins said that it was too early to say whether quota swaps with Norway will have a positive impact on the local whitefish fleet. He added that the conclusion of the UK-Norway negotiations was ‘just the first piece in a jigsaw that will be put together in the coming weeks’.
The full details of 2023 catching opportunities as a result of these talks were not yet clear, he said, and depended on ongoing negotiations with the EU and Norway, and on bilateral coastal state discussions with Faroe, as well as the ongoing impasse between NEAFC members about shared pelagic stocks.
UK Fisheries, the Humberside- based operator of the freezer trawler Kirkella, reacted with horror to the outcome of the talks, which cement an ongoing decline in distant-water whitefish quotas that has already seen it confirm the tie-up and sale of its vessel Farnella.
Jane Sandell, CEO of the company, said: “This is yet another body blow for fishers in the North East of England. While the government is gloating over its ‘success’ in the Norway talks, we are having to make skilled people redundant in the Humber region. It’s an absolute travesty of fairness and common sense.
“The few extra tonnes of whitefish in the Norwegian zone won’t come close to offsetting the loss in Svalbard due to the reduced TAC. Defra knows this, and yet it simply doesn’t seem to care about the English fleet. Right now, and not for the first time, the only people celebrating will be the Scottish pelagic barons.
“Defra claims to be looking after all sectors of the industry, but it has repeatedly and deliberately discriminated against distant-waters fishing, blaming this on the fact that UK Fisheries has foreign owners – even though we represent one of the few parts of the industry that is making significant investments in and broader contributions to the British economy.”
Defra claimed that in total, the deal reached would see an overall £5m increase in value of fish obtained through the agreement – £3m in the Arctic and £2m in the North Sea – as well as providing access to the Norwegian zone of the North Sea to the UK demersal fleet. This includes 750t of Arctic cod quota, and 1,100t of demersal species in the North Sea.
In spite of the continued impasse on agreeing pelagic quota shares, the deal also gives the UK and Norway reciprocal access to each other’s waters to catch up to 20,000t of herring in 2023.
Claiming the deal as a successful outcome for the UK, fisheries minister Mark Spencer said: “I’m delighted to reach a deal with Norway for 2023 which gives UK fishing vessels access to key fish stocks and quota in the North Sea and Arctic, and look forward to continuing to work collaboratively with Norway and other coastal states to manage fishing sustainably.
“The agreement highlights both parties’ continued commitment to manage fisheries sustainably and support the long-term viability of stocks in the North Sea. It sits alongside a separate arrangement the UK has with Norway under which we expect over 5,200t of additional Arctic opportunities to be transferred to the UK in 2023.
“In total, this should provide the UK fleet with over 6,000t of fishing opportunities in Arctic waters.”
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
It’s interesting in so much that the loudest Brexiteers amongst my friends have been particularly quiet of late. Almost like the realisation that they were lied to is beginning to sink in.
The irony is, many of us who chose to vote remain were honest enough to identify weaknesses in the EU but also realised that in order to force change, it’s best to be sat at the table rather than be out the room. They, the brexiteers on the other hand, just failed to see that. Whether that was caused by a lack of ability to critically think, nationalism, racism or just stupidity, we’ll never truly know but hopefully there’ll come a time when they’re honest enough to say it didn’t work. It was a total and absolute clusterfuck…
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
It’s interesting in so much that the loudest Brexiteers amongst my friends have been particularly quiet of late. Almost like the realisation that they were lied to is beginning to sink in.
The irony is, many of us who chose to vote remain were honest enough to identify weaknesses in the EU but also realised that in order to force change, it’s best to be sat at the table rather than be out the room. They, the brexiteers on the other hand, just failed to see that. Whether that was caused by a lack of ability to critically think, nationalism, racism or just stupidity, we’ll never truly know but hopefully there’ll come a time when they’re honest enough to say it didn’t work. It was a total and absolute clusterfuck…
I voted to leave. I got it badly wrong. I have no problem admitting it and did very early on. We should be accountable and answerable for our actions. I have no doubt I bought some of the lies and so stupidity is a fair assumption but of the other charges you bring for those who have the temerity to think differently to you-non are applicable. I do understand a lot of people did have those reasons to vote leave but I think they stunt discussion and show a level of ignorance to other people who got it wrong and were misguided but we’re well intentioned in their choice.
“I know writers who use subtext and they’re all cowards.” –Garth Marenghi
Whether you voted remain or leave, I think we can all agree that a 52% majority is tiny and although it should have been the basis for strong negotiations was nowhere near strong enough a mandate to actually leave, had there been a second vote that showed the same trend then maybe. I'm sure a figure of 65% was talked about as being the legal threshold at the time.....
I voted to leave. I got it badly wrong. I have no problem admitting it and did very early on. We should be accountable and answerable for our actions. I have no doubt I bought some of the lies and so stupidity is a fair assumption but of the other charges you bring for those who have the temerity to think differently to you-non are applicable. I do understand a lot of people did have those reasons to vote leave but I think they stunt discussion and show a level of ignorance to other people who got it wrong and were misguided but we’re well intentioned in their choice.
I also did and like you regret believing the lying politicians. I think the whole political set in this country needs sorting out. If a political party put something in a manifesto then they should be made legally to do it, after all, that's what people are voting for. That said turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Think I will stick to the line James O'Brien uses.
Contempt for the conmen, compassion for the conned.
The government have been gas lighting the electorate for 13 years, but they turned the gas up to full over the Brexit vote.
It was to appease the Eurosceptics and an attempt to unite factions of the Tory party that Cameron agreed to the vote, never thinking he would see us vote to leave, but he underestimated the campaign put together by Brexiteers and their willingness to win at all costs.
While the remainers sat back relaxed, believing it was in the bag, powerful forces were funding the leave campaign and the pack of lies they fed the nation.
Once Boris did his flip flop, sensing the fall out would scupper Cameron and subsequently May should the leave vote win, he saw a path to No10 and they had their figurehead.
Think I will stick to the line James O'Brien uses.
Contempt for the conmen, compassion for the conned.
The government have been gas lighting the electorate for 13 years, but they turned the gas up to full over the Brexit vote.
It was to appease the Eurosceptics and an attempt to unite factions of the Tory party that Cameron agreed to the vote, never thinking he would see us vote to leave, but he underestimated the campaign put together by Brexiteers and their willingness to win at all costs.
While the remainers sat back relaxed, believing it was in the bag, powerful forces were funding the leave campaign and the pack of lies they fed the nation.
Once Boris did his flip flop, sensing the fall out would scupper Cameron and subsequently May should the leave vote win, he saw a path to No10 and they had their figurehead.
Dominic Cummings and his team did the rest.
I conned myself too in fairness, although I am guilty of rank stupidity and naivety. I foolishly thought we could improve upon what we already had if we had more control. I should have listened to the people saying it would be a race to the bottom as that’s what we’ve got.
“I know writers who use subtext and they’re all cowards.” –Garth Marenghi
Before I say I was wrong in voting leave I would like to say everybody has a right to vote the way they see fit .
What I don't like is the constant name calling coming from the remain voters thinking they are far more knowledgeable and sensible than the leavers.
It's the same when the Labour voters on here call the ones who voted any other way.
It's a free country and we should be able to talk about things without name calling which comes across as sour grapes.
I am sure if we have another vote in the next year or two the country will vote to rejoin.
It has not effected me but I would vote to rejoin anyway so maybe the country can come back together and stop the petty bickering.
I do however feel sorry for all the extra paperwork leaving has cause and for the motorist and other holiday people who have lost their free movement and the same goes for the Europeans who came over for seasonal work or even wanted to move to our lovely country and settle here.
Rant over love to all.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
It’s interesting in so much that the loudest Brexiteers amongst my friends have been particularly quiet of late. Almost like the realisation that they were lied to is beginning to sink in.
The irony is, many of us who chose to vote remain were honest enough to identify weaknesses in the EU but also realised that in order to force change, it’s best to be sat at the table rather than be out the room. They, the brexiteers on the other hand, just failed to see that. Whether that was caused by a lack of ability to critically think, nationalism, racism or just stupidity, we’ll never truly know but hopefully there’ll come a time when they’re honest enough to say it didn’t work. It was a total and absolute clusterfuck…
I don't really like politics it's a subject of division , I do remember watching the polling for Brexit though it seemed mental with people getting over excited.
That Farage was foaming at the mouth about us 'getting our waters back?' Has that happened ? Dodgy Dave walked away a few days later shi*tkng himself saying the country needed 'fresh leadership ' It seems like that has been carnage to , I only enjoyed saying 'Liz Mistrust' because she seemed a wrong un as well with mad ideas .
Kier Starmey does not seem like he would deliver much for anyone either , seems another wrong un .
I would not trust any of those lot with anything of mine ,either parties - the only thing it sounded like they were good for was having parties they should not have been taking part in when they were telling us to ''stay in'
While our current government were fecking about trying to organise a Brexit that that they told us all to vote for but didn’t have any plan to deliver, especially how to deal with Northern Ireland, the EU and the rest of the world were building battery factories. Our automotive industry tells them it’s about to collapse and now they are about to announce a new battery factory in West Somerset of all places. Right in heart of Levelling Up territory that, also next door to Rees Moggs constituency. 5 years behind the curve, wrong place for levelling up, too little too late, these people are nothing but ridiculous clowns who have completely fecked this country.
Before I say I was wrong in voting leave I would like to say everybody has a right to vote the way they see fit .
What I don't like is the constant name calling coming from the remain voters thinking they are far more knowledgeable and sensible than the leavers.
It's the same when the Labour voters on here call the ones who voted any other way.
It's a free country and we should be able to talk about things without name calling which comes across as sour grapes.
I am sure if we have another vote in the next year or two the country will vote to rejoin.
It has not effected me but I would vote to rejoin anyway so maybe the country can come back together and stop the petty bickering.
I do however feel sorry for all the extra paperwork leaving has cause and for the motorist and other holiday people who have lost their free movement and the same goes for the Europeans who came over for seasonal work or even wanted to move to our lovely country and settle here.
Rant over love to all.
You have a different recollection to me Pete. Ive never thought that anything can be achieved by name calling and I remember debating on here with you about the whole Brexit thing. We debated in a good spirit but the abuse that came my way from others on here for simply supporting Remain was bonkers. The only person I can remember sharing my view was Ginny. I dont see the point of "I told you so" posts either. I just think its incredibly sad and worrying for the future that so many were taken in by a few no-marks and a press owned almost totally by the non-dom right wing.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
There were a few of us who were vocal about Brexit being a excrement idea. Used to get totally shot down by the likes of marinerz93 and called all the names under the sun by him and some others. You didn’t have to be a genius to realise that the idea that we held all the cards, that the NHS would get an extra £350million a week etc, was total lies.
There’s no point in saying I told you so but I hope any older Brexit voters can reflect on how they’ve benefitted enormously from the UK being in the EU and how they’ve denied younger people the same benefits. All because they didn’t like there being a Polish section in Asda. The irony being that we're now short of workers but immigration is higher than ever. Well done chaps, beautifully done.
I'm not one to gloat usually, but on this one, I'm so annoyed about it that I absolutely will say 'I told you so'.
It was the biggest con the Tories have ever pulled off, and they have a long track record of lies and subterfuge. They will do and say anything if they can gain an advantage from it.
I hope the voters remember their lies at the general election, but I fear they will keep voting for the heartless charlatans.
Not really mate ,it's a pointless debate they are all pi*sing from the same pot . Like anything else just my opinion , but like I said before I don't really like politics it can be a divisive subject ; when in reality we all need more of a common ground .
I would not say it's that much unsubstantiated ,otherwise you would not be discussing it would you?
Brexit isn’t a pointless debate. It’s been absolutely and decisively influential on our fortunes. This ‘they’re all the same’ notion is exactly what I’d expect from someone who has self certified as ‘not interested in politics’. They’re self evidently not. Labour haven’t been in power for 13 years and the current Conservative party and government have proved themselves to be, beyond any contention, the most depraved, corrupt, incompetent, dishonest, nasty, profiteering bunch of charlatans this nation has ever had to endure. And they’ve burned our institutions, our integrity, our reputation and our public services and infrastructure to the ground, with brexit the crowning turd in the skipfire of lies and mismanagement.
By all means, say you’re fed up, but you’ve had Tory government for a long long time. They have the power. They made the calls. They’re responsible. To say it’s ‘irrelevant’ whether we stay/go (brexit) is palpably ridiculous and ignorant of the indisputable facts.
Brexit isn’t a pointless debate. It’s been absolutely and decisively influential on our fortunes. This ‘they’re all the same’ notion is exactly what I’d expect from someone who has self certified as ‘not interested in politics’. They’re self evidently not. Labour haven’t been in power for 13 years and the current Conservative party and government have proved themselves to be, beyond any contention, the most depraved, corrupt, incompetent, dishonest, nasty, profiteering bunch of charlatans this nation has ever had to endure. And they’ve burned this nation and it’s institutions to the ground, with brexit the crowning turd in the skipfire of lies and mismanagement.
By all means, say you’re fed up, but you’ve had Tory government for a long long time. They have the power. They made the calls. They’re responsible. To say it’s ‘irrelevant’ whether we stay/go (brexit) is palpably ridiculous and ignorant of the indisputable facts.
But if we had stayed in they would hsve messed that up to and then the other side of the argument would have just been saying we should have left at this point.
The only thing I know about labour is Blair backed up his mate and dropped nukes on a country that had 'weapons of mass destruction ' even though they were not even there and wiped it out . Hardly gives you confidence they would make any better decisions than the other lot .
Maybe the yellow one's deserve a go instead -convies i think they are called ?
I know they did not technically nuke it but they did a good job of destroying a country .
Does any labour fan actually not think Tony Blair was a wrong un ?
And does any Conservative think Boris or Dodgy Dave Cameron were not wrong uns to ?
Blair completely fecked an otherwise pretty good legacy by becoming Bush junior's bag carrier for the war. Blair closed the Northern Ireland peace deal, brought in the minimum wage, massively enhanced LGBT rights and devolution and although much criticised at the time for the state the of the NHS, just look at it now, it makes 2007 look like health service nirvana.
It will take years to get it back to access to GP and A and E and operation waiting times we had in 2007.
May’s ill-judged alliance with the religious fascist party (aka DUP) led to Johnson shambles. We’d all have been better off if she’d win that election with a small majority because quite a lot the Tory MPs at that point would have voted for a soft Brexit.
Brown had some unfortunate social conservative views and an abrasive personality which led Clegg to make the terrible decision to prop up Cameron instead of a Labour government.
Although I was in despair when he beat Kinnock, history shows Major to be a decent bloke shafted by swivel eyed right wingers in his own party. He also started the process that led to the Good Friday Agreement.
As a person who has always voted tactically for either the Labour Party or Liberals, I still blame the Labour Party for the state of the country though. They elected the wrong Milliband as leader. That single event has done most to wreck this country.
I suppose calling them all wrong uns is maybe a bit harsh , it's more the fact they seemingly all preach promises then rarely deliver , I have always thought it would be easier to talk about more deliverable ideas ?
How have they made it so I can't see a dentist unless i pay 300 or £400 quid ?
20 years ago it did not seem a problem to have an NHS one,easily available .
Why did all the team leave want us out so badly ? And why did that Dodgy Dave put it to a vote if it would be such a bad thing for us , seems a suicidal decision ; surely he should have seen it through to rather than bottling it and walking away ?
Sorry if basic questions , but maybe I can improve my political knowledge through the Fishy lol
But if we had stayed in they would hsve messed that up to and then the other side of the argument would have just been saying we should have left at this point.
The only thing I know about labour is Blair backed up his mate and dropped nukes on a country that had 'weapons of mass destruction ' even though they were not even there and wiped it out . Hardly gives you confidence they would make any better decisions than the other lot .
Maybe the yellow one's deserve a go instead -convies i think they are called ?
May’s ill-judged alliance with the religious fascist party (aka DUP) led to Johnson shambles. We’d all have been better off if she’d win that election with a small majority because quite a lot the Tory MPs at that point would have voted for a soft Brexit.
Brown had some unfortunate social conservative views and an abrasive personality which led Clegg to make the terrible decision to prop up Cameron instead of a Labour government.
Although I was in despair when he beat Kinnock, history shows Major to be a decent bloke shafted by swivel eyed right wingers in his own party. He also started the process that led to the Good Friday Agreement.
As a person who has always voted tactically for either the Labour Party or Liberals, I still blame the Labour Party for the state of the country though. They elected the wrong Milliband as leader. That single event has done most to wreck this country.
I can’t see anyway Ed miliband was responsible for anything, or his election as leader. Perhaps you blame Labour for not winning but to blame them for 13 years of Tory policy is madness and exactly what the Tory press want you think.
And as for what John Major thinks - well he was proven absolutely correct in what he said pre-referendum about Brexit. And he is a man with a very well informed opinion, in painful contrast to the wreckers, incompetents, grifters and charlatans on the leave side.
I would like to see a political party's manifesto become a legal document enforced by law. That way they would have to do what they promised, but turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
I can’t see anyway Ed miliband was responsible for anything, or his election as leader. Perhaps you blame Labour for not winning but to blame them for 13 years of Tory policy is madness and exactly what the Tory press want you think.
The Tories have delivered 13 years of policies that have been disastrous for the majority in this country. But that is their nature. It’s like blaming foxes for eating your chickens. If the Labour Party had selected David Milliband as leader, it’s more likely that Labour would have won the 2015 election. I was being somewhat facetious with that comment in that respect.
As a really young kid I asked my Mum about politics and this was her answer ‘ Labour try to make life better for ordinary people like us and the Tories just want to look out for themselves, keep the rich, rich and sodomist folk like us!’.
It’s stuck with me ever since.
Obviously that’s a very oversimplified and superficial answer catered for a child of 10/11 but over 30 years later it still holds water. You’ll find very convoluted and detailed analysis by people far cleverer than me about different parties but as a basic premise you can’t go far wrong with that!
“I know writers who use subtext and they’re all cowards.” –Garth Marenghi
No, please carry on posting on here. The more the better.
Sorry for talking in metaphors (or is allegories?).
I’m nearing my first bit of pension, for some public sector employment years ago. I can get a senior railcard as well. The last railcard I had was when I was a student. Michael Foot was the Labour leader. Whilst I supported most of his policies he was unelectable. In the 40+ years I’ve been voting, Labour has only had one winning leader. That leader (Blair) is much vilified. Parts of the intellectual left accuse Starmer of being a Tory with a red rosette on. I say bollox to that. What the feck is the point in arguing about the specification and design of the chicken hut when all the while the foxes continue to eat the chicken. Ed Milliband was a decent leader, with some good policies but was never going to be a winner. Corbyn, and I agreed with a lot, but not all, of his policies was an absolute sitting duck for the Tory press and their 12 bores.
Perversely now I hope Starmer gives the Tory right some of their own medicine. Tell lies - lie about not taking us back into the Single Market and then do so. Bring in electoral reform, give the vote to 16 and 17 year olds and EU citizens with right to remain. They pay taxes, why shouldn’t they vote. Let my kids live their next 40 years ridiculing right wing swivel eyed Tories whilst the centre left holds a stranglehold on power.
By the way - if anyone wants to watch great drama that helps understand our political history try “Our Friends in the North”
. Parts of the intellectual left accuse Starmer of being a Tory with a red rosette on. I say bollox to that. What the feck is the point in arguing about the specification and design of the chicken hut when all the while the foxes continue to eat the chicken.
What an utter load of shít, maybe all your metaphors and literary devices are there to hide the fact that you’re talking absolute rubbish?
This country is staring a second lost decade, in growth, wages, standards, etc., dead in the face because the economic system in this country is fundamentally flawed and there isn’t a single atom in Starmer’s body geared towards even acknowledging that, let alone changing it.
I was not a fan of David Miliband but you would expect he would have offered us continuity New Labour, which is a heck of a lot better than what we ended up with. Whether or not he'd have been any better than his brother as Labour leader or stood up better to the slurry of outright disinformation and outright propaganda published in the right-wing media, I don't know. The fact that Ed Miliband had a mild speech impediment and came across as more geeky probably lost a good few votes as much of the electorate isn't known for thinking clearly about who they vote for. I blame Balls most of all for throwing the 2015 election through the ineptitude of failing to push back against the lies promulgated about New Labour's spending causing the 2008 Global Financial Crisis! Idiocy.
Given his pronouncements so far, Starmer (following Reeves economic 'plans') is way, way to the right of Thatcher in most regards and miles to the right of Blair and Brown. So much so that, when he almost certainly wins power, he'll not achieve much at all and we'll probably see the Tories back in charge to finish off the job the following parliament.
What an utter load of shít, maybe all your metaphors and literary devices are there to hide the fact that you’re talking absolute rubbish?
This country is staring a second lost decade, in growth, wages, standards, etc., dead in the face because the economic system in this country is fundamentally flawed and there isn’t a single atom in Starmer’s body geared towards even acknowledging that, let alone changing it.
FFS, I heard the same shite in Labour Party meetings in the mid-90s. “We don’t trust Blair blah blah blah”. They sat there complaining about him before the 97 election after 16 years of Tory rule.
The point is that Blair was way, way to the left of where we see Starmer standing now, and Labour PMs since the 70s have tended to drift rightward when in power. Economically speaking, Starmer and Reeves have clapped the shackles on themselves already with their nonsensical 'fiscal rules' so it will be impossible for them to turn the ship around following the wrecking we've seen since 2010. Starmer simply doesn't understand how the economy works and, unfortunately, he's reliant on Reeves to tell him what's what. She's useless - her BoE background just reinforces why the Bank has made such poor decisions in recent decades. If those in charge think like her (and they do), it's no wonder we're on the rocks without a lifeboat in sight. Even Balls had a bit more awareness and he was useless when push came to shove.
Blair was seriously flawed in many respects, but he (along with Brown) recognised that a lot more public spending would be required to fix the NHS and the other parts of the economy laid waste during the Thatcher/Major years. They spent the money to steady the ship (and not always wisely after continuing the wasteful PFI started under Major), but weren't brave enough to do the necessary things which would help return us to where we were during the post-war consensus - increase taxes, reduce inequality, take utilities back into public hands, try to deal with the broken housing market, etc etc etc. They were just following the neoliberal handbook on the assumption that it was the answer and it certainly wasn't. Thatcher famously said that Blair and New Labour were Thatcherism's greatest achievement. If I was the type of New Labourite currently pulling Starmer's strings, I'd be thinking about that very seriously. Unfortunately, they aren't because, what the New Labour years showed them, is that being in power is all that count, even if you don't achieve anything with it (other than personal benefit, of course). It means we've ended up with an empty shirt such as Starmer as head of the party when he doesn't really have a proper plan to improve things enough when he gets into power. I'm not encouraged by the fact that, unlike Blair, he hasn't even waited until he got into power before starting to break the promises made to Labour Party members when he was trying to become party leader.
Unfortunately, the failure of New Labour to do anything much more than tinker around the edges meant that it was incredibly easy for the Tories (and their inept backers the LibDems during the coalition years), to start to swing the wrecking ball once again and they've not stopped yet. Rocketing inequality, massive falls in living standards and the refrain that, 'We can't afford it', whenever something more than mildly left wing is suggested. Bevan achieved so much in one parliament and it worked so well that it was 30 years before the Tories made serious attempts to start to break down the post-war consensus. To do this, of course, they started with lies, blaming the Labour government for the energy crisis caused by conflict in the Middle East! Just like the Tories blamed New Labour spending for a global financial crisis!
On the assumption that Starmer wins power, in the following election, you can bet your bottom dollar that they will recycle this trick to distract from any gains made, however meagre they might be.
I've never been a member of a political party, but wouldn't touch Labour with a barge pole with this current bunch at the helm. Our broken electoral system means I'll have to vote for the Labour candidate if there is any hope of getting rid of the Tories, but I will have to pinch my nose to do so. And believe me I absolutely flipping hate the Tories. Not the disinterested Tory voter, who backs them because they believe the lies they are told or are alright Jack, but those who run the party for the benefit of the wealthy and think intercourse the rest of us.
Until we get politicians with the courage to stand up to the media narrative and back some solid reforms which would only need to put us back closer to the liberal social democracies we see in most of Europe, the only way is down. Probably down more slowly under a Starmer administration, but down nonetheless.
I would like to see a political party's manifesto become a legal document enforced by law. That way they would have to do what they promised, but turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
That is ok in principle, but governments also need to be agile in an uncertain global arena. Also, what would happen in a coalition where compromises are often needed?
If we ever get taken back into the EU, I imagine we would need to adopt the Euro within a few years.
The point is that Blair was way, way to the left of where we see Starmer standing now, and Labour PMs since the 70s have tended to drift rightward when in power. Economically speaking, Starmer and Reeves have clapped the shackles on themselves already with their nonsensical 'fiscal rules' so it will be impossible for them to turn the ship around following the wrecking we've seen since 2010. Starmer simply doesn't understand how the economy works and, unfortunately, he's reliant on Reeves to tell him what's what. She's useless - her BoE background just reinforces why the Bank has made such poor decisions in recent decades. If those in charge think like her (and they do), it's no wonder we're on the rocks without a lifeboat in sight. Even Balls had a bit more awareness and he was useless when push came to shove.
Blair was seriously flawed in many respects, but he (along with Brown) recognised that a lot more public spending would be required to fix the NHS and the other parts of the economy laid waste during the Thatcher/Major years. They spent the money to steady the ship (and not always wisely after continuing the wasteful PFI started under Major), but weren't brave enough to do the necessary things which would help return us to where we were during the post-war consensus - increase taxes, reduce inequality, take utilities back into public hands, try to deal with the broken housing market, etc etc etc. They were just following the neoliberal handbook on the assumption that it was the answer and it certainly wasn't. Thatcher famously said that Blair and New Labour were Thatcherism's greatest achievement. If I was the type of New Labourite currently pulling Starmer's strings, I'd be thinking about that very seriously. Unfortunately, they aren't because, what the New Labour years showed them, is that being in power is all that count, even if you don't achieve anything with it (other than personal benefit, of course). It means we've ended up with an empty shirt such as Starmer as head of the party when he doesn't really have a proper plan to improve things enough when he gets into power. I'm not encouraged by the fact that, unlike Blair, he hasn't even waited until he got into power before starting to break the promises made to Labour Party members when he was trying to become party leader.
Unfortunately, the failure of New Labour to do anything much more than tinker around the edges meant that it was incredibly easy for the Tories (and their inept backers the LibDems during the coalition years), to start to swing the wrecking ball once again and they've not stopped yet. Rocketing inequality, massive falls in living standards and the refrain that, 'We can't afford it', whenever something more than mildly left wing is suggested. Bevan achieved so much in one parliament and it worked so well that it was 30 years before the Tories made serious attempts to start to break down the post-war consensus. To do this, of course, they started with lies, blaming the Labour government for the energy crisis caused by conflict in the Middle East! Just like the Tories blamed New Labour spending for a global financial crisis!
On the assumption that Starmer wins power, in the following election, you can bet your bottom dollar that they will recycle this trick to distract from any gains made, however meagre they might be.
I've never been a member of a political party, but wouldn't touch Labour with a barge pole with this current bunch at the helm. Our broken electoral system means I'll have to vote for the Labour candidate if there is any hope of getting rid of the Tories, but I will have to pinch my nose to do so. And believe me I absolutely flipping hate the Tories. Not the disinterested Tory voter, who backs them because they believe the lies they are told or are alright Jack, but those who run the party for the benefit of the wealthy and think intercourse the rest of us.
Until we get politicians with the courage to stand up to the media narrative and back some solid reforms which would only need to put us back closer to the liberal social democracies we see in most of Europe, the only way is down. Probably down more slowly under a Starmer administration, but down nonetheless.
You’ve just said it there - “our broken electoral system”. I practically got offered out but some of the Manchester Labour Party in the 90s when I said I’d vote Liberal tactically if required to keep the Tories out. They were so up their own arses they couldn’t see from from the relatively safe Labour seats in Greater Manchester, how easily the suburban masses of Basildon swallow their dose of the Daily lies.
You say we’ll just sink more slowly under Starmer; we have an 80 seat majority to overturn. Blair wasnt facing anything like that. If Starmer just slows the sinking in a first term that will do. For me it’s win at all costs and win again at all costs.. No Labour leader, or policies, can fix the wreckage of this country in even two terms. The radicalism needs to be in the electoral system to make sure Tories are reduced an unelectable Trussonomics rabble, the equivalent of Labour in the early 80s. I don’t want these cvnts in power again for the rest of my life.
The social/economic aspects mean that people often vote against their best interests due to their personal beliefs. This is something that a proportional electoral system would help as you'd end up with parties which were socially conservative but economically liberal and vice versa.
The social/economic aspects mean that people often vote against their best interests due to their personal beliefs. This is something that a proportional electoral system would help as you'd end up with parties which were socially conservative but economically liberal and vice versa.
Both I guess Cheers mate i will give it a go and let you know what comes out on here !
I'd guess that most people in the UK come out in the libertarian left quadrant of things. Older generations probably a bit close to the centre lines, perhaps nudging past them slightly. Youngsters probably further towards the far corners.
I've just done it myself for the first time in a long while - lots of the questions very much to do with US-style religious fervour which almost certainly isn't particularly commonplace on this side of the pond. The evangelical Christian right in the US would probably score around the same as an Islamicist from the Middle East, thought they would perhaps be more likely to think that corporations can do no wrong.
I have literally never voted in my life , the next one i will give it a go based on the opinion of you all on this thread .
It seems a shame there seems to only be 2 electable parties though , not much choice - if you don't like either there is no one else with a realistic chance of winning is there ?
Do you just vote for the one you least hate then ?
What is the biggest problem now then - The Tories or Brexit ?
I'd guess that most people in the UK come out in the libertarian left quadrant of things. Older generations probably a bit close to the centre lines, perhaps nudging past them slightly. Youngsters probably further towards the far corners.
I've just done it myself for the first time in a long while - lots of the questions very much to do with US-style religious fervour which almost certainly isn't particularly commonplace on this side of the pond. The evangelical Christian right in the US would probably score around the same as an Islamicist from the Middle East, thought they would perhaps be more likely to think that corporations can do no wrong.
A majority Lib Left yes. Yet the Jacob Rees Mogg types still get elected…by the 40% of the 60% that vote…
Maybe people like me are the 'wrong uns' then who just don't vote .
I did find some of the questions interesting on the quiz , some I have thought about before I think my main political slogans would be ' help within reason' and 'freedom within reason '
I don't get the abortion thing ,assuming that's an American related question , I would say it should always be the womans free choice ; but obviously some must disagree with that .
And there was a question about employment along the lines of 'if you are fit to work should you be forced to ? ' Definately for me , but I also think benefits for people who actually need them are too hard to access and restrictions & paperwork etc too much .
I think the pension system is poor too , how can anyone survive on £600 a month or whatever it is , if you have not got a substantial private pension you have to work longer or penny pinch - surely there would be a better way to have more income for when you retire ?
Thanks guys I know I can get a postal vote and I might get one if there is someone I really like or dislike.
Pete, you have to register first. Perhaps 2/3 months before election time or even do it now. You will get the voting papers in the post and then you can decide whether to return them or not.
If you leave it until voting time you may not be registered for the current election whenever that is.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Pete, you have to register first. Perhaps 2/3 months before election time or even do it now. You will get the voting papers in the post and then you can decide whether to return them or not.
If you leave it until voting time you may not be registered for the current election whenever that is.
Cheers Dave
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
I would just ignore it all Pete and stick to your plan of getting your feet up and watching sport on the telly. No point in getting worked up about the horror show and subsequent electing of whatever shower gets in next.
"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
I don't get the abortion thing ,assuming that's an American related question , I would say it should always be the womans free choice ; but obviously some must disagree with that .
Definitely an American related question. Just imagine if politics in this country was still caught up in heated debates about abortion and guns. No wonder America is disintergrating when abortions, guns and religion are still flashpoints in elections. It's why they are happy to keep on voting in old blokes way past pensionable ages.
"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
Definitely an American related question. Just imagine if politics in this country was still caught up in heated debates about abortion and guns. No wonder America is disintergrating when abortions, guns and religion are still flashpoints in elections. It's why they are happy to keep on voting in old blokes way past pensionable ages.
The right wing nutters in America are fiercely pro-life right up from conception until birth. After that they are quite happy for the child to be gunned down in school by a nutter with an assault weapon.
The right wing nutters in America are fiercely pro-life right up from conception until birth. After that they are quite happy for the child to be gunned down in school by a nutter with an assault weapon.
Sounds absolutely bonkers , I know when you see these mass shootings , you can't believe kids can even get hold of guns over there .
I watch the odd documentary about the cults over there you can't believe some of the stuff that goes on .
The right wing nutters in America are fiercely pro-life right up from conception until birth. After that they are quite happy for the child to be gunned down in school by a nutter with an assault weapon.
Brilliant and sadly very true!
“I know writers who use subtext and they’re all cowards.” –Garth Marenghi
It's like they all skipped the whole 'thou shalt not kill' bit of the bible when trying to find the anti-abortion chapter.
As for always being the woman's free choice.....It's more nuanced than that i'm afraid and I doubt anyone has the 100% correct answer. For starters, at what point in the pregnancy do we decide 'life' is definitive and therefore abortion is murder? What rights should the prospective father have in this decision? Is this no-abortion thing really just motivated by a desperate and clumsy attempt to stave off the projected population implosion? What laws were passed quietly under the radar whilst everyone was focused on this issue? I'll never know I guess
It's like they all skipped the whole 'thou shalt not kill' bit of the bible when trying to find the anti-abortion chapter.
As for always being the woman's free choice.....It's more nuanced than that i'm afraid and I doubt anyone has the 100% correct answer. For starters, at what point in the pregnancy do we decide 'life' is definitive and therefore abortion is murder? What rights should the prospective father have in this decision? Is this no-abortion thing really just motivated by a desperate and clumsy attempt to stave off the projected population implosion? What laws were passed quietly under the radar whilst everyone was focused on this issue? I'll never know I guess
Did you read the article, and not just the headline?
A German minister says we should look to reopen negotiations to remove some of the barriers put in place even after Johnson's trade deal was implemented. He isn't coming to us, cap in hand, asking for a better deal (and couldn't do so, obviously, as it would be the EU commission running the negotiations). He is recommending that we come to them, cap in hand, to ask to negotiate a better deal. Considering that the EU (still) holds pretty much all of the cards, the only way we are going to negotiate a better deal for us is if we agree to further concessions of the sort that the Brexiteers are too stupid to ever agree with. Brexit is nothing more than an act of faith now. Everybody can see that Brexit has been a steaming pile of shite for the country, as foretold, but it is heresy to admit it. If you're a Conservative politician, you are still scared of the right-wing headbangers who fund the party and elect its leaders. If you are part of Starmer's Labour Party, he is so terrified of not winning back the 'Red Wall' voters who were duped into thinking Brexit could ever be a success, that he's too scared to say or do anything in this regard. The politicians running both of the major parties are just pathetically inept that I can't see anything but continued decline for the next decade, which is pretty depressing.
I see ‘prominent brexiteer’ (code for dimwitted bigot who doesn’t understand economics) Peter Bone (isn’t nominative determinism a beautiful thing) has been charged with bullying and sexual misconduct, in what is now, a completely normal set of circumstances for a Tory politician. He will face a suspension and possible local election for his seat. Anyone who’s ever listened to Peter Bone(head) will, I’m sure, be shocked to discover that he’s actually a rather disgusting deviant, lying gammon and all round tw*t. Still, this lot have rather normalised this kind of hatefully unprofessional and sub-human conduct haven’t they.
In his defence, he claims that all the allegations are completely fictitious.
However, the prosecution is satisfied that there is enough evidence to prove his guilt. Has always struck me as being a twit though everything he has ever said in public, so wouldn't surprise me.
Interesting to see that a complaint was made to the Conservative Party some years ago, but the proceedings never went anywhere so, after 5 years, the complainant went to this board instead.
Very revealing response from CCHQ:
“This case was investigated by [Conservative Central Headquarters], however the complainant withdrew from the process before the case was heard.”
No denial of the complaint, but ultimately a shameless admission that they deliberately hadn't bothered to carry the case forward and didn't have the balls to close it. Must have wanted to keep the story under wraps.
I see the claiming back of our sovereignty and banishing all those johnny foreigners is going well. Record numbers of migrants since we left the EU. The figure has now been rounded up to over 700,000 for the year to December 2022.
They also said that we would be better off. Food, goods and services would be cheaper. Trade with other countries would take up the slack. The NHS would receive millions of extra money. Etc etc.
Are any of you Brexiteers ready yet to admit you were lied to and were completely wrong about the outcomes?
I see no brexiteers have stuck their heads above the parapet and answered my question about regrets in leaving, despite the feeling among the populace now swinging back to wanting closer ties with the EU.
The vote in 2016 was just over 51% in favour of leaving. It was suggested that many "elderly" were in favour of leaving which swung the vote that way.
Unfortunately, some of the elderly proportion who voted to stay have died over the last 7 years, which will result in a swing to rejoin the EU; given that some of the elderly population now were younger at the time of the vote and assume that their vote will not change. Also, the new young voters will probably vote to join as they know no different.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Astonishingly, I’m still waiting for 1 Brexiteer to show me 1 Brexit benefit. They can’t, because there aren’t any. Fact.
Remember- the half a dozen or so prominent Brexiteers all had and sold a different and personalised version of Brexit - Johnson, Farage, Hannan, Davis, Rees-Mogg, Duncan-Smith, Gove….and all the rest of the big mouths and client journalists…….Pritti Patel declaring with triumphant glory that “this is the end of ‘freedom of movement”, without reminding you it was the end to your freedom of movement too. Immigration has absolutely rocketed, with chronic labour shortages………. all these stupid fevered egos, with their own perception and calibration of Brexit. Parliament is sovereign….always has been, still is. The EU never had the power to ‘impose’ a single law on us. Some sold you leave but stay in the single market and customs union, They sold Norway style, Swiss style, hard Brexit, leave means leave, easy trade deals, more money for the NHS, control of our borders….all the rest of it. All palpable b0llocks. Compassion for decent, hard working, caring Brits who wanted change and something better and were duped, but anyone who understands data and economics was right, and anyone still clinging on to some idiotic perception that it has been anything other than an act of calamitous and boneheaded self harm is, frankly, an absolute f***ing idiot.
I see no brexiteers have stuck their heads above the parapet and answered my question about regrets in leaving, despite the feeling among the populace now swinging back to wanting closer ties with the EU.
I see no brexiteers have stuck their heads above the parapet and answered my question about regrets in leaving, despite the feeling among the populace now swinging back to wanting closer ties with the EU.
I see no brexiteers have stuck their heads above the parapet and answered my question about regrets in leaving, despite the feeling among the populace now swinging back to wanting closer ties with the EU.
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