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Barley Wine Drinker
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Isn't the EU seen more favourably since Brexit by its member states. As others have said even people like Le Pen and Geert Wielders have stopped demanding referenda on membership. I imagine young people in most countries are fairly pro-EU as they've benefited from things like Erasmus and freedom of movement. The EU has plenty of issues but I doubt continental Europe wants to go back to border checks and therefore the EU will remain a necessity.
I think covid has put the EU exit thing on the back burner in many countries, so we'll have to see what happens when most Europeans have been vaccinated.
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promotion plaice |
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What I've never understood was how the vote to leave the EU was a vote to leave the custom union which is what the country voted to join / remain in 1975. The problem is that a trade relationship is always going to mean the need for some join rules and regulations which the leave side of the debate don't seem to accept. I guess we'll see what happens. My personal opinion is that we will have a much close relationship or be back in the EU in 20 years because youngsters tend to be much more pro-EU and with the university system meaning people meet people from the EU and develop relationships, I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Why would we want to stay in a customs union where we wouldn't have a seat at the table? "The British government would have no say over new trade deals if it was in a customs union with the European Union, a former head of the World Trade Organization has said. The comments from Pascal Lamy, who is also a former EU trade commissioner, will dent the hopes of MPs who favour a customs union but seek to retain British influence in the EU."
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MarinerMal |
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If you are under about 50 years of age you weren't born when the vote was taken. What politicians of all sides told the electorate was simply this. 'We think we should trade with countries 20 miles across the channel rather than the like of Australia, Canada, and other countries around the world who are thousands of miles away.
It was put to the population as a trading agreement, FULL STOP. You can add to it what you like but we, the public of the day, were only told of a trading agreement.
You're quite obviously a remainder so stop whingeing. We had a DEMOCRATIC vote and Brexit has happened. There are many things that I have seen in my life which I disagree with but if that is the law then I accept it and move on.
I think you may find it was you who was whinging about some vote you pretend you were lied to about in the 1970's. You weren't, the points you pretend you were lied to about were openly debated. Alas, similar to Brexit, you only seemed to have listened to the more popular sound bites rather than try to look any deeper on the issues. Maybe when remainers see some evidence of the real advantages of Brexit they will stop moaning. At the moment, trade is way down, we are becoming more isolated and irrelevant on the world stage and it is looking more likely the break up of the UK will happen than the break up of the EU that Brexiteers would have had you believe would happen.
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DB |
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Barley Wine Drinker
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I think you may find it was you who was whinging about some vote you pretend you were lied to about in the 1970's. You weren't, the points you pretend you were lied to about were openly debated. Alas, similar to Brexit, you only seemed to have listened to the more popular sound bites rather than try to look any deeper on the issues.
Maybe when remainers see some evidence of the real advantages of Brexit they will stop moaning. At the moment, trade is way down, we are becoming more isolated and irrelevant on the world stage and it is looking more likely the break up of the UK will happen than the break up of the EU that Brexiteers would have had you believe would happen.
I don't recall any debates but about 67% of the population at the time seem to have agreed with my view. We have not been relevant on a world stage for decades, the only time we were relevant was when the only countries to have the bomb were the USA and us. As far as a world stage is concerned the USA just about dominates with Russia closely followed by China. We might be in 4th place but India is an emerging country along with the Arab states. I don't include the EU as it's not a state or nation on its own. President Nola would love independence but has to find the money to support her dreams. If the UK government spent as much per head on Scotland, as it did in England, then she'd more or less be bankrupt.
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MarinerMal |
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I don't recall any debates but about 67% of the population at the time seem to have agreed with my view.
We have not been relevant on a world stage for decades, the only time we were relevant was when the only countries to have the bomb were the USA and us. As far as a world stage is concerned the USA just about dominates with Russia closely followed by China. We might be in 4th place but India is an emerging country along with the Arab states. I don't include the EU as it's not a state or nation on its own.
President Nola would love independence but has to find the money to support her dreams. If the UK government spent as much per head on Scotland, as it did in England, then she'd more or less be bankrupt.
You don't recall? Well it was 46 years ago tbf. Let me remind you... Sovereignty - the ability to run our own affairs - was very much an issue in the 1975 referendum. Both Enoch Powell, the maverick right wing Tory and left wing Labour cabinet minister Tony Benn - the loudest voices in the Out campaign - talked endlessly about it. In their leaflet to voters, the Out campaign warned that the Common Market "sets out by stages to merge Britain with France, Germany, Italy and other countries into a single nation," in which Britain would be a "mere province". Even the In campaign openly acknowledged that being a member of the EEC involved "pooling" sovereignty with the eight other nations who were members at the time but Britain could no longer go on it's own... we were on our knee's at the time. So you see, these issues were debated. Maybe you don't remember or just ignored these debates. Nevertheless, they were definitely debated.
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DB |
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Barley Wine Drinker
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You don't recall? Well it was 46 years ago tbf. Let me remind you...
Sovereignty - the ability to run our own affairs - was very much an issue in the 1975 referendum.
Both Enoch Powell, the maverick right wing Tory and left wing Labour cabinet minister Tony Benn - the loudest voices in the Out campaign - talked endlessly about it.
In their leaflet to voters, the Out campaign warned that the Common Market "sets out by stages to merge Britain with France, Germany, Italy and other countries into a single nation," in which Britain would be a "mere province".
Even the In campaign openly acknowledged that being a member of the EEC involved "pooling" sovereignty with the eight other nations who were members at the time but Britain could no longer go on it's own... we were on our knee's at the time.
So you see, these issues were debated. Maybe you don't remember or just ignored these debates. Nevertheless, they were definitely debated.
Thank you for pointing this out but, in all honesty, I still don't remember.
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Stadium |
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Champagne Drinker
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Could be added to the liar thread tbh. Tweet 1448249500867440641 will appear here...
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chaos33 |
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You don't recall? Well it was 46 years ago tbf. Let me remind you...
Sovereignty - the ability to run our own affairs - was very much an issue in the 1975 referendum.
Both Enoch Powell, the maverick right wing Tory and left wing Labour cabinet minister Tony Benn - the loudest voices in the Out campaign - talked endlessly about it.
In their leaflet to voters, the Out campaign warned that the Common Market "sets out by stages to merge Britain with France, Germany, Italy and other countries into a single nation," in which Britain would be a "mere province".
Even the In campaign openly acknowledged that being a member of the EEC involved "pooling" sovereignty with the eight other nations who were members at the time but Britain could no longer go on it's own... we were on our knee's at the time.
So you see, these issues were debated. Maybe you don't remember or just ignored these debates. Nevertheless, they were definitely debated.
All well and good. But, I challenge you to give us 3…..no, 1 example of something we can now ‘take back control’ of that was out of our hands when we were in the EU, apart from immigration (how’s that Australian style points system cobblers going?)
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KingstonMariner |
October 13, 2021, 11:58pm |
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The point about voting for Common Market is irrelevant. You make it sound like it was only up to the older generation if we remained or not because only they were around when voting took place to join it in the first place. Let's not forget Britain more or less begged to enter the common market being known as the sick man of Europe at the time.
Britain, initially, didn't want to be part of the initial European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) in 1961 or the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1967.
The British government did not engage in a significant way with these talks and signed neither treaty at the time. It disliked many of the supranational elements in the treaties, it was worried about damaging links with Commonwealth countries and it wished to pursue a ‘one-world economic system’ policy in which sterling was a central currency.
However, The UK’s non-participation meant that when it did join the EEC in 1973 it had to accept many elements controversial among some British voters, which were established before it joined: its supranationalism, the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) and the budget. In June 1975 the UK held a referendum to confirm its continuing membership of the EEC. The British people vote to stay in by 67% to 33%.
So it seems you did vote for more than just a trade market after all.
While there are aspects of EU membership which aren't popular there is no denying Britain has changed, prospered and grew while being an EU member.
In the 1960's we made the mistake of not being involved at the outset of the EEC before seeing them prosper while we struggled. I just think we have gone and made the same mistake again and for what? Sovereignty? Laws being forced upon us? Upto the 2016 referendum the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999. So we agreed 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.
We were member of an multinational multicultural organisation. We can't expect to have got our own way all of the time. But it seems we were pretty damn close.
Thanks for bringing some longer perspective on this. I remember the 75 referendum but I don’t remember many of the details.
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Stadium |
October 29, 2021, 12:24pm |
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Champagne Drinker
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All well and good.
But, I challenge you to give us 3…..no, 1 example of something we can now ‘take back control’ of that was out of our hands when we were in the EU, apart from immigration (how’s that Australian style points system cobblers going?)
Any update on this ??
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