Brexit deal agreed

Chaos looking likely in Northern Ireland, Boris sold the unionists out completely after surprisingly lying again about the border.   There are too many looking to start fighting again for the least reason and neither side are known for reasonableness.  Hopefully a new peace can be sorted soon

I dont normally weight in on these kinds of conversations, but Brexit really cuts through to the hear of a lot of things in my life.  my job is at the heart of an industry impacted by Brexit ( as are many here).....I married a French girl, I took French nationality (of which I am very proud)....

No doubt I'll get lots of red crosses for this, but here we go.....

Where I work we took the decisions 2 years ago because of Brexit to off-shore 80% of our business to the Netherlands and Romania for multiple reasons... all of which make this country weaker....

1.  Financial passporting (we lost the right to provide very services to other EU countries).  This is what people voted for (I refuse to say "people didn't know what they voted for" - therefore people actively voted to reduce access to our closest, richest, biggest market)

2.  We can't get talented people to come to the UK - one of the biggest ways to generate money in a country is to employ highly talented people and they then pay taxes here... now those people dont want to come here .  We employ people from all over the world - we dont care where they come from, they just need to be the best.  A bit like NASA/google/apple....   English, French, Brazilian, Nigerian, Indian, Italy,  - we dont care, we just want the best people.  If they dont exist here, then we go elsewhere to find them.  If those people wont come to the UK anymore then we need to find a place where they will go and work and that place is increasingly outside the UK.  Those skills DO NOT EXIST in the UK in enough numbers- we can't just dig them out of the ground...

3.  Instability- I deal with people from the US, Germany, France, Switzerland, Aus etc..... serious people.  They will not touch the UK with a barge pole right now.  When Italians say to me "the UK is instable" then you know you are in trouble. You cannot reasonably have a European headquarters in the UK when the UK is not in the EU - and trust me big companies LOVED having headquarters in the UK because culturally it is easier to move people to the UK than Germany or France....

4.  These are long term cultural and structural issues - these are not teething issues.  anyone who says "it'll wort itself out" is not dealing with the realities of high value add business and the flow of capital.  the UK had amazing SOFT power.... the rule of law.... now all of these are viewed by non UK people as being worth nothing now....  the last 2 years in particular have seen the UK's reputation fall very badly.  We are trying to keep open our UK offices but people are spooked and the Dutch love Brexit because they can say "het, come here, we speak English, great business environment, you can trust us"

5,  You cannot rely on a mercantile economic model - that is what the 1600-1850s were about.....  the world is integrated these days.

All the talk of fish is emotive and I get that, but the reality is 80% of the UK ecomomy is service related .  The UK's clients are other highly developed A1 nations....  a vast majority of those A1 nations are in the EU.  We can't go and sell wind turbines to Botswana and financial services to Peru.... or even fresh fish to France anymore.

Australia, NZ are a long way away.. .. Japan has a deal already with the EU that we can (at best) only replicate.... any nation in history has had the most trade with its neighbours.  Our neighbours is the richest, biggest free trade area in the world..... and culturally we are closer than people think.

Culturally the Remain argument lost the debate on the emotive things  such as access to live and work in 27 other countries, freedom of movement  both ways.  Go and let your kids study in Paris/Berlin/Madrid etc

I grew up in a poor family in Louth, but I was presented with small opportunities to work and live outside the UK with no need for a visa....  now (thankfully) I have kids who are half French who still have that right and that mind set to study and  work and travel freely in the EU.  My sister's kids no longer have that right.

I'm one of those so called metropolitan elites (according to Rees Mogg) even though I grew up in a council house in Louth.....  My rant might go against some of the grain here (its ok to disagree folks) but I feel very strongly about the opportunities and freedom that my european status provided me.  

None of the alternatives to EU membership were better......

Anyway - rant over.   Roll on red crosses.

Merci et bon soir.

Quoted from Yossarian

I dont normally weight in on these kinds of conversations, but Brexit really cuts through to the hear of a lot of things in my life.  my job is at the heart of an industry impacted by Brexit ( as are many here).....I married a French girl, I took French nationality (of which I am very proud)....

No doubt I'll get lots of red crosses for this, but here we go.....

Where I work we took the decisions 2 years ago because of Brexit to off-shore 80% of our business to the Netherlands and Romania for multiple reasons... all of which make this country weaker....

1.  Financial passporting (we lost the right to provide very services to other EU countries).  This is what people voted for (I refuse to say "people didn't know what they voted for" - therefore people actively voted to reduce access to our closest, richest, biggest market)

2.  We can't get talented people to come to the UK - one of the biggest ways to generate money in a country is to employ highly talented people and they then pay taxes here... now those people dont want to come here .  We employ people from all over the world - we dont care where they come from, they just need to be the best.  A bit like NASA/google/apple....   English, French, Brazilian, Nigerian, Indian, Italy,  - we dont care, we just want the best people.  If they dont exist here, then we go elsewhere to find them.  If those people wont come to the UK anymore then we need to find a place where they will go and work and that place is increasingly outside the UK.  Those skills DO NOT EXIST in the UK in enough numbers- we can't just dig them out of the ground...

3.  Instability- I deal with people from the US, Germany, France, Switzerland, Aus etc..... serious people.  They will not touch the UK with a barge pole right now.  When Italians say to me "the UK is instable" then you know you are in trouble. You cannot reasonably have a European headquarters in the UK when the UK is not in the EU - and trust me big companies LOVED having headquarters in the UK because culturally it is easier to move people to the UK than Germany or France....

4.  These are long term cultural and structural issues - these are not teething issues.  anyone who says "it'll wort itself out" is not dealing with the realities of high value add business and the flow of capital.  the UK had amazing SOFT power.... the rule of law.... now all of these are viewed by non UK people as being worth nothing now....  the last 2 years in particular have seen the UK's reputation fall very badly.  We are trying to keep open our UK offices but people are spooked and the Dutch love Brexit because they can say "het, come here, we speak English, great business environment, you can trust us"

5,  You cannot rely on a mercantile economic model - that is what the 1600-1850s were about.....  the world is integrated these days.

All the talk of fish is emotive and I get that, but the reality is 80% of the UK ecomomy is service related .  The UK's clients are other highly developed A1 nations....  a vast majority of those A1 nations are in the EU.  We can't go and sell wind turbines to Botswana and financial services to Peru.... or even fresh fish to France anymore.

Australia, NZ are a long way away.. .. Japan has a deal already with the EU that we can (at best) only replicate.... any nation in history has had the most trade with its neighbours.  Our neighbours is the richest, biggest free trade area in the world..... and culturally we are closer than people think.

Culturally the Remain argument lost the debate on the emotive things  such as access to live and work in 27 other countries, freedom of movement  both ways.  Go and let your kids study in Paris/Berlin/Madrid etc

I grew up in a poor family in Louth, but I was presented with small opportunities to work and live outside the UK with no need for a visa....  now (thankfully) I have kids who are half French who still have that right and that mind set to study and  work and travel freely in the EU.  My sister's kids no longer have that right.

I'm one of those so called metropolitan elites (according to Rees Mogg) even though I grew up in a council house in Louth.....  My rant might go against some of the grain here (its ok to disagree folks) but I feel very strongly about the opportunities and freedom that my european status provided me.  

None of the alternatives to EU membership were better......

Anyway - rant over.   Roll on red crosses.

Merci et bon soir.

You make some very good points, but what you have forgotten is that when we voted to go into the 'Common Market', whic I did, it was for trading purposes only. That is what the politicians of the day said.

What we were not told is that there would be a European Parliament, Commissioners, a pathway leading to a United States of Europe. It is with this in mind that many, especially in my age group, voted to leave the now EU.

Trade with the EU, yes I don't mind and think it's a good thing. Be ruled by people in Brussels and the spare parliament in Strassburg NO.

DB - you make an interesting point there and it is one I can have some sympathy with.

The classic question back is of course, which laws did you specifically object to?

I think the reality is that some form of political union at some level is necessary if you are to have a joined-up trading bloc the size of the EU..that of course brings with it the necessity to work across the chamber with other parties etc.

..  And remember, you can actually vote (or used to be able to vote) for your MEP, and that the UK govt actually did have the right to take unilateral decisions....

I think the UK had a great deal in that we did not have the Euro (a great decision to stay out of that)

Unfortunately the quality of reporting about the EU has been poisoned for 40 odd years with stories that were either not true or exaggerations...  .

Its a fascinating debate that will rumble on for a generation or more - I do tell my kids they are living through fascinating times.   I'm obviously highly pro-EU and on the wrong side of the result, but listening to opinions on both side of this is an engrossing experience (and sometimes horrifying as well!!)

Viva la difference!

Quoted from Yossarian

I dont normally weight in on these kinds of conversations, but Brexit really cuts through to the hear of a lot of things in my life.  my job is at the heart of an industry impacted by Brexit ( as are many here).....I married a French girl, I took French nationality (of which I am very proud)....

No doubt I'll get lots of red crosses for this, but here we go.....

Where I work we took the decisions 2 years ago because of Brexit to off-shore 80% of our business to the Netherlands and Romania for multiple reasons... all of which make this country weaker....

1.  Financial passporting (we lost the right to provide very services to other EU countries).  This is what people voted for (I refuse to say "people didn't know what they voted for" - therefore people actively voted to reduce access to our closest, richest, biggest market)

2.  We can't get talented people to come to the UK - one of the biggest ways to generate money in a country is to employ highly talented people and they then pay taxes here... now those people dont want to come here .  We employ people from all over the world - we dont care where they come from, they just need to be the best.  A bit like NASA/google/apple....   English, French, Brazilian, Nigerian, Indian, Italy,  - we dont care, we just want the best people.  If they dont exist here, then we go elsewhere to find them.  If those people wont come to the UK anymore then we need to find a place where they will go and work and that place is increasingly outside the UK.  Those skills DO NOT EXIST in the UK in enough numbers- we can't just dig them out of the ground...

3.  Instability- I deal with people from the US, Germany, France, Switzerland, Aus etc..... serious people.  They will not touch the UK with a barge pole right now.  When Italians say to me "the UK is instable" then you know you are in trouble. You cannot reasonably have a European headquarters in the UK when the UK is not in the EU - and trust me big companies LOVED having headquarters in the UK because culturally it is easier to move people to the UK than Germany or France....

4.  These are long term cultural and structural issues - these are not teething issues.  anyone who says "it'll wort itself out" is not dealing with the realities of high value add business and the flow of capital.  the UK had amazing SOFT power.... the rule of law.... now all of these are viewed by non UK people as being worth nothing now....  the last 2 years in particular have seen the UK's reputation fall very badly.  We are trying to keep open our UK offices but people are spooked and the Dutch love Brexit because they can say "het, come here, we speak English, great business environment, you can trust us"

5,  You cannot rely on a mercantile economic model - that is what the 1600-1850s were about.....  the world is integrated these days.

All the talk of fish is emotive and I get that, but the reality is 80% of the UK ecomomy is service related .  The UK's clients are other highly developed A1 nations....  a vast majority of those A1 nations are in the EU.  We can't go and sell wind turbines to Botswana and financial services to Peru.... or even fresh fish to France anymore.

Australia, NZ are a long way away.. .. Japan has a deal already with the EU that we can (at best) only replicate.... any nation in history has had the most trade with its neighbours.  Our neighbours is the richest, biggest free trade area in the world..... and culturally we are closer than people think.

Culturally the Remain argument lost the debate on the emotive things  such as access to live and work in 27 other countries, freedom of movement  both ways.  Go and let your kids study in Paris/Berlin/Madrid etc

I grew up in a poor family in Louth, but I was presented with small opportunities to work and live outside the UK with no need for a visa....  now (thankfully) I have kids who are half French who still have that right and that mind set to study and  work and travel freely in the EU.  My sister's kids no longer have that right.

I'm one of those so called metropolitan elites (according to Rees Mogg) even though I grew up in a council house in Louth.....  My rant might go against some of the grain here (its ok to disagree folks) but I feel very strongly about the opportunities and freedom that my european status provided me.  

None of the alternatives to EU membership were better......

Anyway - rant over.   Roll on red crosses.

Merci et bon soir.

Never mind Brexit how you going to cope with Frexit 😀

Quoted from Yossarian

DB - you make an interesting point there and it is one I can have some sympathy with.

The classic question back is of course, which laws did you specifically object to?

I think the reality is that some form of political union at some level is necessary if you are to have a joined-up trading bloc the size of the EU..that of course brings with it the necessity to work across the chamber with other parties etc.

..  And remember, you can actually vote (or used to be able to vote) for your MEP, and that the UK govt actually did have the right to take unilateral decisions....

I think the UK had a great deal in that we did not have the Euro (a great decision to stay out of that)

Unfortunately the quality of reporting about the EU has been poisoned for 40 odd years with stories that were either not true or exaggerations...  .

Its a fascinating debate that will rumble on for a generation or more - I do tell my kids they are living through fascinating times.   I'm obviously highly pro-EU and on the wrong side of the result, but listening to opinions on both side of this is an engrossing experience (and sometimes horrifying as well!!)

Viva la difference!

All of them.

The Commonwealth Countries didn't have one.

So the french farmers didn't burn our lamb,
The french didn't use smaller net meshes to catch fish
The port of Calais was not blocked several times
European hauliers could use our roads without refueling in this country, so paying no taxes.
Straight Bananas????

I could go on, and on,and on etc.

The Commonwealth Countries don't have a unified single market and close trading relationship so that's a spurious comparison.

Did the EU decree that lamb reared in the UK should be burned? Of course not. That was French farmers breaking the law. See also intermittent blockage of ports. This has nothing to do with membership (or not) of the EU.

No idea about mesh sizes for fishing nets. Did French fishermen use illegally small mesh? If so, there would be a case to answer there though I'd need to see the evidence. Regardless, I don't think the Brexiteers should really be complaining too much about past fishing arrangements given the shitshow of an agreement Johnson signed up to and promoted as 'victory'.

If a haulier was travelling from a country with cheaper fuel prices, you'd have to expect they would fill up there instead of the UK. Why is this a point worth mentioning? Back in the day when I used to visit Belgium with my Dad (to fill up the car with beer!), we'd often fill up the tank over there as well as fuel was cheaper. Was this somehow wrong?

The straight bananas stuff is well-known nonsense so I'm surprised to see it even mentioned.

As somebody who operates a mail order business with many EU customers, it's unsurprising that we've seen a huge drop in European sales this year. However, it must be said that the postal system has been in such a hole due to a combination of Brexit and the pandemic, that we've not been doing much in the way of marketing to EU customers. Leaving the customs union is another massive issue, especially as EU customers now have to pay VAT and customs charges for their orders. That said, the situation in this regard is changing in July in any case as new EU legislation means that intra-EU sales will also need to levy VAT so that will level the playing-field to some degree. If the post-Brexit problems are any indication, expect the postal system Europe-wide to grind to a halt once this legislation is brought into action.

We're going to have to start collecting VAT at the point of sale for the EU states to enable the customs charges and delays to be avoided, which is going to be fun. At least there is going to be a one-stop system where we'll only have to register for VAT in one EU country. It's going to be a nightmare to implement all this, unfortunately.

Quoted from Humbercod

Never mind Brexit how you going to cope with Frexit 😀

Ha!  Good quesion.

You know what, I was having a conversation with a member of the French side of the family  - he is a full on Le Pen voter - and even they looked at Brexit and realised what a car crash Brexit was and now Frexit is off the table ( or at least in any serious level).  My wife grew up about 500m from the border with  Belgium - notions of nationalitiy and identity are much more fluid on the continent.

It is much easier to talk about cheese eating surrender monkeys when you live in north Lincolnshire. My French side of the family is split across nationalities by mere kilometers.....

Hear hear Yossarian. Your long post was spot on.

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