The truth of hillsborough

Quoted from Rodley Mariner

I can't help but wonder why you feel better placed to know what happened than an independent panel who've spend hundreds of hours pouring over evidence and concluded that their is no evidence of excessive drunkenness, violence or people forcing entry without tickets. I'm sure some people were drunk but the police should have done their jobs properly and protected those innocent fans at the front.

I also wonder, had you lost a 15 year old child, would you feel it so pointless to seek justice through the prosecution of those culpable. What are your views on the systematic falsification and destruction of evidence and the deliberate attempt to shift blame onto the people who'd suffered?

My views on those things are the same as yours Rodley, it is reprehensible. That wasn't my point though. If they want to pursue it then that is up to them and how they feel it will help them. But personally I happen to doubt that it will in the long run. Bitterness consumes.

As to your other observation, leaving aside the cover ups for the moment,  I am only speaking from experience of seeing what grounds, policing and supporters were like from the 60s onwards. Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen, just like Ibrox and Bradford, but what did happen was far worse than even I expected. The problem with long range reports like this is that no matter how good they are, how diligently they assess the evidence, how honestly they present the findings - they can only report on the hard evidence that is available to them and they cannot account for a wider context or culture.

Just one example - SWFC have apologised and rightly so but Hillsborough was a long way from being the only ground that was struggling with fan segregation, the  cages business and ticketed admission that were brought in to prevent pitch invasions and fighting. The club obviously followed what it had done for the identical fixture the previous year in the belief that if it worked then it would work again. It didn't. You could call SWFC culpable or unlucky or both. Lots of other ground managers would have been thinking "There but for the grace of God ..." The same applies to Bradford doesn't it? After we saw that fire on TV it put the fear of God into people used to being in a wooden stand for years.

Sorry to go on Rodley, I just feel that there is more breadth to this story than a simplistic blame, prosecute and hang 'em attitude we are seeing in the media.

By the way, by birth I really should be Bramley Mariner.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

A lot of gut reaction today isn't there? The Indy is full of righteous indignation. The Mail would bring back hanging as usual. What has come out today is nothing new though, just more of it.

It was obvious that up to 41 more people might possibly have survived if they had treatment straightaway. The doctored police statements were already published a few years ago. We knew that the very few police had even fewer radios. We knew the coroner's illegal blood samples showed none of the victims had alcohol in them. (Well they wouldn't would they? The victims were the innocent first ones into the cage and the last ones to charge in couldn't have their blood tested could they?) We knew that the field gates were not opened in time. We knew that the exit gate was wrongly opened. We knew people were not guided into the empty side areas. We knew the man in charge had no experience and froze because he said so. All we have is more confirmation of all this.

If it is possible to apportion blame then stop talking about it and do it. Sue the police. Petition the Attorney General over the inquests, charge somebody over the falsification of evidence. Get on with it if the families think that will help them. Will it? Will it help anyone to shove a few long retired coppers in an open prison for a year or two after some hugely expensive show trials? I have my doubts.

At the risk of annoyance to some posters I have to say that today proves nothing new at all, at least to me. We know what happened. Those of us old enough to have seen football grounds before, during and after the cages know exactly why it happened too. That combination of circumstances cannot be repeated.

The point is that football fans died on that day and the Police have lied, covered up the truth, but most importantly blamed the Liverpool fans for the disaster. A cloud hung over the City of Liverpool, drunken fans, hooligans and supporters robbing the dead reported by the Sun newspaper, WHICH WERE LIES. This is why the families of 96 victims have had to keep on fighting for their loved ones for 23 years, which totally unacceptable.  How would you feel if loved one did not come home after a football and was told that they had died because their were drunk and a hooligan, would you not fight to clear their name, whatever it takes. I know I would. JUSTICE IS REQUIRED and everyone should support the families, so that those accountable as brought to justice.  

Quoted from The Yard Dog

The point is that football fans died on that day and the Police have lied, covered up the truth, but most importantly blamed the Liverpool fans for the disaster. A cloud hung over the City of Liverpool, drunken fans, hooligans and supporters robbing the dead reported by the Sun newspaper, WHICH WERE LIES. This is why the families of 96 victims have had to keep on fighting for their loved ones for 23 years, which totally unacceptable.  How would you feel if loved one did not come home after a football and was told that they had died because their were drunk and a hooligan, would you not fight to clear their name, whatever it takes. I know I would. JUSTICE IS REQUIRED and everyone should support the families, so that those accountable as brought to justice.  

Fair enough, you are clear in your opinion. May I just ask - exactly who would you put in the dock and what punishments do you think would give the families justice?

Ronraffertyfanclub. . . If everything was already known. . . Why were there gasps of amazement in parliament today when the scale of the injustice was announced?  I think you have posted a statement which you believed in before today and are standing by it regardless of what haa been presented today!

You are right to think you may annoy people. . . You have annoyed me, not by disrespecting the feelings of lfc families (they wont readthe ignorant ramblings of an ignoramous on a mesageboard for a two-bob non league football club. . . No, you annoy me because  you are one of tgose who assume they are right and fail to adapt your stance despite overwhelming evidence that you should!

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

Fair enough, you are clear in your opinion. May I just ask - exactly who would you put in the dock and what punishments do you think would give the families justice?

Those that have broken the law. . . Thats sort of how the legal system works!

Perverting the course of justice, involuntary manslaughter, abuse of power in public office. . . That's how the law works. . . Not by garnering the opinion of posters on a messageboard!

RRFC - I agree that it's more complicated than 'It's the fault of the police' but what needs to stop now is the insinuation that drunk, violent, ticketless Liverpool fans caused this, that somehow Liverpool as a group of supporters were asking for it. It's been proven categorically that this wasn't the case. It's been evidenced that this was a narrative created by the South Yorks police to try and cover their own failings yet still people, including supposedly educated men like Boris Johnson seem to accept this as fact. Going off topic, if he manages to 'amiable buffoon' his way to PM we might as well all give up.

As for the what next; maybe some families want legal action and maybe others don't. Those that do are entitled to it. Negligent actions of senior members of South Yorkshire police led to the deaths of 96 innocent people and they should be accountable, the fact that it'd be expensive and bring nobody back is of no consequence and isn't how our justice system works. Likewise, those complicit in the cover up of what actually happened; to try and smear the dead and dig up criminal records on them is utterly sickening and unforgivable.

As for Bramley - only just up the road although I'm now round the corner in Farsley. By the way, nice to have this debate sensibly without being labelled a moron or worse!

I'm pretty sure a dossier of names could be made up from all of those documents and those people made to account for their stories.
Personally I'd start with Irvine Patnick, the Sheffield MP of the time who I'm pretty certain began the chain of lies that certain parts of the media grabbed hold of. He was very certain of what he had believed to have happened, even going as far as to say he'd met police officers who'd told of the fans beating up police officers, that he'd seen the bruises on them to back this up, and that these officers had confirmed the fans were all in a drunken state. I'd just like to see if he would be prepared to repeat what he said on oath.
He certainly should be accountable for his very damaging words that day.

Quoted from 1054

Those that have broken the law. . . Thats sort of how the legal system works!

Perverting the course of justice, involuntary manslaughter, abuse of power in public office. . . That's how the law works. . . Not by garnering the opinion of posters on a messageboard!

Actually found an opinion of yours I agree with. It's plain common sense if they have broken the law, they should be punished, the evidance is there now, no excuses for not convicting those responsible, for the conspiracy, negligence and perverting the course of justice.

Quoted from aaron rattray

my respect for david cameron has gone up through the roof as i suspect many others will regard david cameron much higher now

CamerOn has only said sorry because he's got to although I don't doubt that he does feel for the families. However we all know another cover up will happen when it comes to dishing out punishments now to the lying illegitimates and the incompetent idiots who were in charge and blame everyone but themselves.