The truth of hillsborough

Just watched ITV's the truth of Hillsborough.  I can recall watching the events unfold live on TV (I was supposed to be going to that match, working in London at the time and got called into work, was I p***ed off at the time).  As a football fan I hope the truth goes out , the families of the 96 who died on that day, deserved some closure.  I hope they get the truth from the Hillsborough Panel Report, due out shortly.
I can recall on many times in the eighties early nineties how the old bill treated Town supporters when on away days following town.  Chesterfield sticks in my mind, old bill rounding up town supporter's two hours before kick-off, herding them into the open terraces behind the goal, on a very hot day. Supporter's fainting in the heat and old bill would not open the emergency gates.

Just argued on facebook with someone who still believes it was the fans fault. The fans just wanted to get in and out of the crush taking place at the gates. How is that their fault? They went where the police told them to go. And going by the documentary the police ignored cries for help before they opened the gates and even when they did open the gates they still ignored the cries for help. The truth needs to be told to let the people who still blame the fans know that it wasn't their fault at all. R.I.P. 96.

Quoted from The Yard Dog

As a football fan I hope the truth goes out ,

so do I

Quoted from Gary Haddock

Just argued on facebook with someone who still believes it was the fans fault. The fans just wanted to get in and out of the crush taking place at the gates. How is that their fault? They went where the police told them to go. And going by the documentary the police ignored cries for help before they opened the gates and even when they did open the gates they still ignored the cries for help. The truth needs to be told to let the people who still blame the fans know that it wasn't their fault at all. R.I.P. 96.

how anyone can blame the fans is beyond me. the police were fully to blame. next time you see the person, kick ten bells of excrement out of him and then tell hims hes to blame.

Quoted from hertfordshire mariner

how anyone can blame the fans is beyond me. the police were fully to blame.

I know, I agree with you, this is why the truth needs to be told and published.

Quoted from hertfordshire mariner

how anyone can blame the fans is beyond me. the police were fully to blame. next time you see the person, kick ten bells of excrement out of him and then tell hims hes to blame.

tempted.

Quoted from Gary Haddock

I know, I agree with you, this is why the truth needs to be told and published.

i cant belive its taken over 20 years.

Quoted from hertfordshire mariner

i cant belive its taken over 20 years.

same here, my dad use to follow town and Liverpool back then, one week he'd be at a Liverpool game the next week he'd be at a town game, don't know if he was there or not with my mum being pregnent with me and my twin, he never really talks about it much but goes mad when anyone tries blaming the fans.

Listening to one of the victim's familly members nd they every year when they hold the memorial it's like having a funeral every year. That must be hell for them, especially knowing that the real truths hasn't been published yet.

Of course, at the time, there was a fair bit of trouble surrounding football in general, relating to the behaviour of some so-called fans, so it's probably not surprising that the police were unsympathetic to people who wanted to get onto the pitch. It's clear to me that those police weren't aware of the seriousness of the situation or of the tragedy that was unfolding.  I think the main problem was lack of communication between the police / stewards outside the ground and those inside it.  But anyway, in my mind I relate Hillsborough to football violence - I see the two as interconnected, but not in an obvious way.  I detest the stupid glorification that we hear now of the violence surrounding football before Hillsborough - in my opinion, that violence led indirectly to real tragedy in the end.  If people (and I'm referring to the minority who were always looking for trouble) had behaved like civilised human beings, there would have been no need to put up those cages to segregate supporters and it would have been so much easier for the victims to escape from the Leppings Lane End.

The truth about Hillsborough has always been out there - it depends who you listened to and believed.  I have lived in Liverpool in the past and I have friends who survived Hillsborough; their version of events was infinitely more believable than one put out by the scumbag Sun filth.  I read (on the BBC website, I think) a recent report about a former Sun journalist who wrote an article about Hillsborough at the time.  He is now saying that his words were taken and badly twisted by his editor, and given a headline something like 'The Truth about Hillsborough', when really it wasn't the truth at all.  The journalist was horrified (he said), but just didn't have the power or the guts to confront those in charge of the newspaper at the time.  

I attended that game, possibly one of the worst moments of my life.
In my opinion, it was a terrible accident.
RIP to all who died.

I watched it on itv and as a Liverpool fan i shall be eagerly awaiting the verdict tomorrow, to be fair to pc david duckenfield he didn't mean for people to die and it isn't his fault he was so inexperienced, but he shouldn't of lied, also one person who lost his 2 daughters went to get a coffee and went into a side pen, that probably saved his life, reminds of alfreton away last season

Overall blame lays with the Police for opening the gates no doubt but those pushing to get in and be honest it happened at every big game including ones for Town are to blame too.  I don't see why an inquiry was needed.  There is blame on both sides, partially with those fans who were saying heave and pushing and the majority of blame lays at the feet of the Police for not policing those out side the ground and opening the gates.

Quoted from Gary Haddock

Just argued on facebook with someone who still believes it was the fans fault. The fans just wanted to get in and out of the crush taking place at the gates. How is that their fault? They went where the police told them to go. And going by the documentary the police ignored cries for help before they opened the gates and even when they did open the gates they still ignored the cries for help. The truth needs to be told to let the people who still blame the fans know that it wasn't their fault at all. R.I.P. 96.

It seems you argue alot on Facebook, Jeremy Kyle's ideal guest?  

I agree though it was never the fans fault.

Quoted from Marinerz93

Overall blame lays with the Police for opening the gates no doubt but those pushing to get in and be honest it happened at every big game including ones for Town are to blame too.  I don't see why an inquiry was needed.  There is blame on both sides, partially with those fans who were saying heave and pushing and the majority of blame lays at the feet of the Police for not policing those out side the ground and opening the gates.

The serious issues need addressing, if it's what the families of those who lost loved ones want then that's a good enough reason for one I think. The blame that was laid at the fans feet which was later disproven, the missing CCTV tape, the awful conclusion that the fatalities had all stopped breathing by 3.15, later disproven, the decision to kick off on time while a huge crowd was still waiting to get in through an ancient turnstyle system into a ground lacking a valid safety certificate, the one single ambulance that made it through and a whole load of other mistakes and quite deliberate actions that compounded this tragedy all of which are now officially documented and viewable.

Hopefully this will all be finally addressed and the families at least can move on a little and the yearly blame game will stop. That's all that one can realistically hope for.

Quoted from RoboCod

The serious issues need addressing, if it's what the families of those who lost loved ones want then that's a good enough reason for one I think. The blame that was laid at the fans feet which was later disproven, the missing CCTV tape, the awful conclusion that the fatalities had all stopped breathing by 3.15, later disproven, the decision to kick off on time while a huge crowd was still waiting to get in through an ancient turnstyle system into a ground lacking a valid safety certificate, the one single ambulance that made it through and a whole load of other mistakes and quite deliberate actions that compounded this tragedy all of which are now officially documented and viewable.

Hopefully this will all be finally addressed and the families at least can move on a little and the yearly blame game will stop. That's all that one can realistically hope for.

Fair points RoboCod an excellently put across.

Quoted from aaron rattray

I watched it on itv and as a Liverpool fan i shall be eagerly awaiting the verdict tomorrow, to be fair to pc david duckenfield he didn't mean for people to die and it isn't his fault he was so inexperienced, but he shouldn't of lied, also one person who lost his 2 daughters went to get a coffee and went into a side pen, that probably saved his life, reminds of alfreton away last season

My lord, you're a moron.

I always feel that the main fault was the design of the stand limitless amount of people entering by a tunnel onto a top feeding stand pure recipe for disaster and the fencing fans were treat no better then convicts in those days

One of the worst parts of the hillsborough tragedy was seeing hundreds , if not more , Liverpool fans jumping the turnstiles at the 2 European cup finals they got to after . I would've thought that Liverpool fans would've been the last to do this with such a tragedy in living memory for those fans .

It wasn't the Liverpool fans' fault. . .

Heysel. . . That was their fault!

Quoted from marinette

Of course, at the time, there was a fair bit of trouble surrounding football in general, relating to the behaviour of some so-called fans, so it's probably not surprising that the police were unsympathetic to people who wanted to get onto the pitch. It's clear to me that those police weren't aware of the seriousness of the situation or of the tragedy that was unfolding.  I think the main problem was lack of communication between the police / stewards outside the ground and those inside it.  But anyway, in my mind I relate Hillsborough to football violence - I see the two as interconnected, but not in an obvious way.  I detest the stupid glorification that we hear now of the violence surrounding football before Hillsborough - in my opinion, that violence led indirectly to real tragedy in the end.  If people (and I'm referring to the minority who were always looking for trouble) had behaved like civilised human beings, there would have been no need to put up those cages to segregate supporters and it would have been so much easier for the victims to escape from the Leppings Lane End.

  

A very sensible post Marinette.
It seems to me there is a vindictive desire amongst many to find someone (preferably the police or government) to blame for the tragedy.There isn't someONE to blame, there are many, and none had any idea of the horrific result of their actions.

It doesn't do to believe everything you see on the telly. Two people can watch a piece of CCTV and interpret it in completely different ways. Last night's programme was about the tragic victims and their families and I wish it had been left at that. To start pre-judging what will be revealed tomorrow was wrong in my opinion and just stirred up the ill-feeling.

One good thing about the programme was that it mentioned how football was different then. Hillsborough as a ground was no less safe than Anfield or Old Trafford or Villa Park. Marinette's point about the fences is important. They were there because of the trouble caused by hooligans and they were all around every ground. Up to about 1962 there was no trouble at football games and the only danger was from accidental crowd crushing through overcrowding usually on the way in or out. Even then it was rare. If you think of how many people used the steps at the back of the Barrett Stand when average gates at BP were 10000+, there were no problems. People just waited. Different world.

It was also normal by the 1970s for a lot of young men to go to big games deliberately without a ticket and force their way in by climbing the gates and walls or rushing turnstiles in a gang so that at least some of them would make it before the law could stop them. Liverpool fans were not the only ones but it is daft to deny this didn't happen. Surging was also normal. I can remember being terrified at the City Ground in Nottingham when a huge surge of latecoming Forest fans hurled us down the terraces at the Trent End and onto the cage fence. Yet there wasn't a big crowd and I had been in the same place 15 years before with no bother at all for full house matches when Forest were at the top of the old Div 1.

Whatever is said tomorrow cannot bring back the dead. Bad decisions were made by the police, we all know that. The ground was unsafe, we all know that too. I hope though that people will also think about the way football supporters, including Liverpool ones, behaved at the time and not whitewash 100% of the blame onto the law.

Well said RRFC.

The problem was people were getting crushed at the turnstiles,

Opening the side gate was the correct thing to do,

BUT

What should have happened next is, the police direct the fans to the two end paddocks which were less than half full,

This did not happen and most of the fans just poured into the tunnel unrestricted and then tragedy,

I was at a Sheff Wed v Man Utd game a year before this happened and I could see there was a big danger of crushing occurring then,

This time the police kepy an end paddock empty and was making sure the middle was full before they open the other paddocks,

I said to a copper the stand was full, he replied, " We can get a few more in before we have to open the side paddock, "

I said, Well you will have to open it in a minute because there are another few thousand outside,  A few minutes later when people were getting a bit squashed he open the end paddock,

So my son in law and myself went in and stood in safety,

Why did this tragedy have to happen when a bit of common sense could have prevented it ?

RIP the 96.

Quoted from aaron rattray

I watched it on itv and as a Liverpool fan i shall be eagerly awaiting the verdict tomorrow, to be fair to pc david duckenfield he didn't mean for people to die and it isn't his fault he was so inexperienced, but he shouldn't of lied, also one person who lost his 2 daughters went to get a coffee and went into a side pen, that probably saved his life, reminds of alfreton away last season

I thought you was only 16, how did you watch it? unless you mean you watched the programme "the truth about hillsborough"

Why did this tragedy have to happen when a bit of common sense could have prevented it ?

RIP the 96.[/quote]

That's very true Pete. I'd just ask a question - why would a policeman have the key to a gate inside the ground? As far as my experience is concerned the police could ask for a gate to be opened or whatever but it was down to the club to actually do it. The police responsibility was outside of the ground so shouldn't club stewards have been responsible for shepherding people into empty pens?

In those days as Marinette said, things were different and I think the police were there for public order, that is to keep rival fans segregated inside & outside the ground and deal with pitch invaders. They were not there for public safety matters except in an advisory capacity so something like this disaster would be outside their training and experience and maybe even their orders. It doesn't excuse bad decisions but it puts a perspective on it that people who weren't around at the time perhaps don't realise.

Quoted from cod.gtfc

I thought you was only 16, how did you watch it? unless you mean you watched the programme "the truth about hillsborough"

I thought I saw arron at that game.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

Why did this tragedy have to happen when a bit of common sense could have prevented it ?

RIP the 96.

That's very true Pete. I'd just ask a question - why would a policeman have the key to a gate inside the ground? As far as my experience is concerned the police could ask for a gate to be opened or whatever but it was down to the club to actually do it. The police responsibility was outside of the ground so shouldn't club stewards have been responsible for shepherding people into empty pens?

[/quote]

that's very good point, and hopefully the whole truth comes out, because it's been up for debate for 23 years now and it must hell for the famillies of the victims.

Emotive subject and indeed the truth needs to come out but sometimes people should simply look in the mirror  and accept responsability for there own actions I remember watching the FA Cup Final that Season and before kick off loads of ticketless Liverpool supporters were cadging there way in.Tickets and capacities were set in place for a reason and despite Hillsborough some chose to ignore and could have caused a further tragedy in a decaying Wembley.

I used to split watching Town and Chelsea and remember going not long after when it was still a crime scene ,to see the damage was frightening but as people have pointed out ,at that time Liverpool and a fair few other teams were known to turn up late without tickets and rush the gates , not the sole cause but a lot of things were at fault ,,not just the police.

Like all disasters this was caused by many diffrent factors ,Police ,Ground and stewards,the F.A for not giving the scousers the kop as they had the previous season,and of course the Scouse fans.
the police like they still do to day closed in on themselves and made sure their arses was coverd ,lied for each other and as in so many other cases against the police they ''lost evidence ''.
The scouse fans never accepted any blame for their own fans which  without late comers ticketless and drunk fans the disaster wouldnt have happened.
Ive never heard them screaming for justice for the 30 odd killed at Heysels but they do like a bit of a campaign ,protest or minutes silence at any opportunity for any other reason.
At the end of the day it was a accident and the biggest tribute ever paid to those familys was the way we got our act togther after this,we built some of the best safest all seater staduims in the world and made this the safest place in the world to watch football.
Theres your justice now let sleeping dogs lie

Quoted from grimps

Like all disasters this was caused by many diffrent factors ,Police ,Ground and stewards,the F.A for not giving the scousers the kop as they had the previous season,and of course the Scouse fans.
the police like they still do to day closed in on themselves and made sure their arses was coverd ,lied for each other and as in so many other cases against the police they ''lost evidence ''.
The scouse fans never accepted any blame for their own fans which  without late comers ticketless and drunk fans the disaster wouldnt have happened.
Ive never heard them screaming for justice for the 30 odd killed at Heysels but they do like a bit of a campaign ,protest or minutes silence at any opportunity for any other reason.
At the end of the day it was a accident and the biggest tribute ever paid to those familys was the way we got our act togther after this,we built some of the best safest all seater staduims in the world and made this the safest place in the world to watch football.
Theres your justice now let sleeping dogs lie

Agree with most of your post but if you were Trevor Hicks and had lost 2 daughters im sure you would want justice as well.

Quoted from 1mickylyons

Agree with most of your post but if you were Trevor Hicks and had lost 2 daughters im sure you would want justice as well.

I dont know what justice they are seeking now mate ?
nobody who got up that morning wanted anybody to die later in the day,the only comfort these people can take now is that they know it can never happen again.
Id have been more drunk off if i had lost family in the Ibrox disaster which resulted in nothing changing and the same things happening again.

Quoted from grimps

I dont know what justice they are seeking now mate ?
nobody who got up that morning wanted anybody to die later in the day,the only comfort these people can take now is that they know it can never happen again.
Id have been more drunk off if i had lost family in the Ibrox disaster which resulted in nothing changing and the same things happening again.

You and me as kids would have been told to go and stand at the bottom of the Pontoon terracing and we would have been fairly safe and in those days of terracing you would have headed to the bottom of the stand to be safe in most grounds.As a direct result of that gate opening and fans going through a tunnel blindly onto the centre pen those girls stood at the bottom  died and somebody should be found guilty of manslaughter.The guy in charge of the Police easily had the power to put the kick off back half an hour or take whatever steps he needed to control the crowd and the fact that he failed is a criminal act.I still shudder every time I read articles on so called Police Intelligence realting to football it`s a myth looking at it through Town fans eyes Burton Albion most Town fans knew weeks in advance what was heading there how come Plod never?

A Mate of mine who was there at the time was in that pen and did exactly that ,got there early and went straight to the front ,luckily for him they weren't happy with the view so they decided to go towards the back so that they could see both goals.Good points from Gimps and your right as well Mickeylyons.The good thing is I take my daughter now to watch both Town and Chelsea and feel a lot safer today than when I was going at her age.

I remember the whole period vividly. I was watching the TV at the time. It was one of those moments you never forget and I read the (quality) press avidly is the days that followed. I don't think you can put 100% blame on anyone though so I always object to headlines presenting anything as The Truth - it's just not that clear cut with so many people involved. In any crowd of that size there are bound to be people not behaving entirely legally and there would have been people who were in various degrees of intoxication (like at any football match). I'd put 90% of the blame of the police, and the rest between the stadia we had at the time and maybe a few percentage down to the fans.

A pal of mine who lived near hillsborough said the scousers behaviour that day was the worst he had witnessed from a set of fans at a semi final, the police got the big decisions wrong however the scousers should shoulder some of the blame rip 96

The blame has been attributed, some fans behaviour contributed but on the day all police communication and order broke down. That was the official legal conclusion. This inquest is about finding the hidden documents and how much of the police report at the time was fabricated. In other words, it's uncovering a cover up.  It's not ot trying to apportion blame for the situation that arose, it's done that. Even the PM at the time, Thatcher was badly misled into what happened. What hope for the families in getting the truth?

I hope today results in a clean sweep of the whole affair and is the final chapter in this tragic story.

Quoted from RoboCod

The blame has been attributed, some fans behaviour contributed but on the day all police communication and order broke down. That was the official legal conclusion. This inquest is about finding the hidden documents and how much of the police report at the time was fabricated. In other words, it's uncovering a cover up.  It's not ot trying to apportion blame for the situation that arose, it's done that. Even the PM at the time, Thatcher was badly misled into what happened. What hope for the families in getting the truth?

I hope today results in a clean sweep of the whole affair and is the final chapter in this tragic story.

Absolutely no chance.

Quoted from Alfie

Absolutely no chance.

You're probably right. I'm sure all of the above will be rehashed and picked apart again next April on every forum. Todays findings are for the families though, and it's been a long time coming. Regardless of individuals views I hope that they are at least satisfied with todays report. I think satisfied is the best you could hope for after all of this time.

There have been some very balanced views posted on this thread. Most state that there are several groups who, in hindsight, acted poorly, whether they be fans, police or goverment. Probably not deliberately, but made errors of judgements and didnt consider the consequences.

I suspect it will become a political issue and a blame game about the cover up. Whilst not right, covers ups of varying degrees happen on a very regular basis in government and business. They withold 'sensitive' information that they consider could inflame situations. It is the way of the world but this cost innocent people their lives.

One father of victim said in a TV interview this morning that an apology wont make any difference to him. It cannot change anything. He did say however that if one family got closure then it would be a good thing.

Quoted from RoboCod

You're probably right. I'm sure all of the above will be rehashed and picked apart again next April on every forum. Todays findings are for the families though, and it's been a long time coming. Regardless of individuals views I hope that they are at least satisfied with todays report. I think satisfied is the best you could hope for after all of this time.

2:30pm they are made public, the families see them before us which is understandable

Theyve still not learnt from Hillsborough. At the final in Athens their fans were jumping barriers, forging tickets and generally running riot. Thousands got in without tickets.
Luckily they'd only held the Olympics there a couple of years before, everthing was new so safety was good.

  Was working at L.O.R Refinery at the time of the tragic football match and the store lad was a valiant Liverpool supporter went to every match he could a  happy go lucky lively young man.

When I heard about the disaster I was praying that he was not caught up in the area where it all happened, so I was releived to see him in his usual space in his store the next day.

He was very quiet and subdued as you could understand,  the true story had not come out about how the Police had handled the whole situation when he did speak he could only say a few words and burst into tears the guy had to be sent home because he was obviously deeply traumatised.

Do you know he has never got over it when he came back to work was not the same guy at all and would not talk about it at all it really was that upsetting to him.
NEWFOOTBALLER

Quoted from BIGChris

One father of victim said in a TV interview this morning that an apology wont make any difference to him. It cannot change anything. He did say however that if one family got closure then it would be a good thing.

I understand that some of the various families involved are expecting that there will be enough damning information released to have an inquest opened, which could lead to prosecutions...

This thing is going to rumble on for some time yet.

The biggest question to ask now is why in a supposedly open democratic society it has taken so long for facts to become available, this is not a matter of national security and there is no reason whoever was to blame for anything said or done at the time to be kept secret... on the contrary if the mistakes are hidden how can things be made safer in the future

All of this talk about fans arriving late, drunk and in large numbers was dispelled by the Taylor report and identified as a red herring.

When you recogniose the over involvement of News International with the police which has come to light over the last year through Leveson, you have to wonder whether the incorrect headline that LFC fans were robbing the pockets of the dead that day printed in the sun had anything to do with the police aswell!!!

There will be evidence that the police have doctored paperwork coming out later today as detailked in thnis morning's independant, papers have gone missing and all for the police to protect their own. The guardian are suggetsing that there will come to lighgt evidence about a 'black-ops' police department set up purely to media-spin against these fans and others in society.

We are living in a police state, Tomlinson was an absolute sham, the policing of demonstrations by police officers with their numbers removed from their shoulders as far back as the miners strike is all too common place nowadays.  Police officers who are under investigation for misdemeanours at work typically go off sick and are retired before any investoigation in to their conduct takes place.

Will the families get closure after today?  In my opinion, it is very unlikely.  I think their will be more anger when it comes to light that there has been a masisve attempt by the police to cover up the truth and smear the Liverpool supporters for what happened on that terrible day.

So the report is pretty damning on the police and their big coverup then.

It's looking very bleak for the police behind the original enquiry. Some have said there were further revelations to come, but 164 statements 'significantly altered' ? The dead tested for alcohol, those with none in their system were then checked against a national crime database. Just on pure decency alone it's awful to think anyone would attempt to sully the reputations of so many men, women and children in an effort to wriggle off the hook, but how on earth could they have made it ring true anyway.

Quoted from 1054

All of this talk about fans arriving late, drunk and in large numbers was dispelled by the Taylor report and identified as a red herring.

When you recogniose the over involvement of News International with the police which has come to light over the last year through Leveson, you have to wonder whether the incorrect headline that LFC fans were robbing the pockets of the dead that day printed in the sun had anything to do with the police aswell!!!

There will be evidence that the police have doctored paperwork coming out later today as detailked in thnis morning's independant, papers have gone missing and all for the police to protect their own. The guardian are suggetsing that there will come to lighgt evidence about a 'black-ops' police department set up purely to media-spin against these fans and others in society.

We are living in a police state, Tomlinson was an absolute sham, the policing of demonstrations by police officers with their numbers removed from their shoulders as far back as the miners strike is all too common place nowadays.  Police officers who are under investigation for misdemeanours at work typically go off sick and are retired before any investoigation in to their conduct takes place.

Will the families get closure after today?  In my opinion, it is very unlikely.  I think their will be more anger when it comes to light that there has been a masisve attempt by the police to cover up the truth and smear the Liverpool supporters for what happened on that terrible day.

I've got to say as much as you wind people up on here RBOH, imho this has to be your best ever post. Can't fault your logic at all...

a fantastic statement by david cameron and ed miliband, david cameron said that no blame is attached to liverpool fans, FINALLY JUSTICE FOR THE 96!

Police cover up - attempts to alter the statements - statements removed (over 116 that questioned the role of the police) and an unsafe stadium and so on and so on.

A catalogue of errors and terrible attitudes towards people that happened to be football fans let alone talking about the press and government.

RIP 96  

my respect for david cameron has gone up through the roof as i suspect many others will regard david cameron much higher now

Quoted from aaron rattray

my respect for david cameron has gone up through the roof as i suspect many others will regard david cameron much higher now

not at all he is a girl private! he has said what that female dog thatcher should have said 20 years ago,

Quoted from Hagrid

not at all he is a girl private! he has said what that female dog thatcher should have said 20 years ago,

but he has apologised, he wasnt forced too!

South yorkshire plod GUILTY.
South yorkshire coroner GUILTY.
THE old farts assocaition GUILTY.
The scum mentioned in dispatches GUILTY.
Sheffield council Guilty of letting hillborough to be used when no saftey cert in place.

Quoted from semilapsedmariner

South yorkshire plod GUILTY.
South yorkshire coroner GUILTY.
THE old farts assocaition GUILTY.
The scum mentioned in dispatches GUILTY.
Sheffield council Guilty of letting hillborough to be used when no saftey cert in place.

the coroner got it wrong, he said that everyone of the 96 was dead by 3:15pm but it has been revealed that 59 were still alive

Quoted from aaron rattray

but he has apologised, he wasnt forced too!

because he knows his party and the police were wrong! my respect does not go up for the man

Quoted from semilapsedmariner

South yorkshire plod GUILTY.
South yorkshire coroner GUILTY.
THE old farts assocaition GUILTY.
The scum mentioned in dispatches GUILTY.
Sheffield council Guilty of letting hillborough to be used when no saftey cert in place.

couldn't put it better myself, and borrowing this for a facebook status, was trying to find a way of putting it and you've sumed it up nicely.

Quoted from aaron rattray

but he has apologised, he wasnt forced too!

Let me just quote Abraham Lincoln here:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."


Anyway, as for the report, as expected the cause was a complete balls-up by the Police and other emergency services. What compounds the tragedy is that lives could have been saved even after the crush had the emergency services entered the stadium and tried to resuscitate some of the victims.

Reprehensible that the police attempted to cover their arses to shamelessly and the Tory MP, Patnick, sounds like a right piece of work.

yep

Quoted from Maringer

Anyway, as for the report, as expected the cause was a complete balls-up by the Police and other emergency services. What compounds the tragedy is that lives could have been saved even after the crush had the emergency services entered the stadium and tried to resuscitate some of the victims.

Reprehensible that the police attempted to cover their arses to shamelessly and the Tory MP, Patnick, sounds like a right piece of work.

This. I've heard a few people in recent months/weeks asking 'what truth exactly do these people want?' as if this enquiry was just something trivial in a world with an at-times trivial appeals system.  I think it was shown today. A few people need to look at themselves, a few should be questioned but the most upsetting part was that 59 fans could possibly have been saved. There's the truth, it was a cover up and vindication is now official but the details such as those, although rightly demanded can bring no comfort at all to the relatives.

Many on this thread are still propogating the myth that somehow Liverpool fans share responsibility for that day - hopefully that will now end and people will accept they were blameless innocents. There is no evidence at all to suggest criminality, violence, drunkenness or ticketlessness occurred in any significant manner.

I also wonder whether those who suggest today was pointless and that 'sleeping dogs should lie' still feel the same? Surely people have to be brought to account for there actions on the day. I find the widespread altering of statements and the conscious police attempt to shift blame onto the fans utterly reprehensible and those responsible should be dealt with through the correct legal channels.

I hope I never have to hear the suggestion that football fans caused the deaths that day ever again.

Quoted from Hagrid

not at all he is a girl private! he has said what that female dog thatcher should have said 20 years ago,  

As she once famously said, "The Lady's not for turning"... especially when something didn't suit her, the Hillsborough cover up being a case in point.

There's no way she would have done a "U" turn and tried to get the truth and to the bottom of what happened

Will there be any charges? I mean isn't it conspiracy, negligence and obstructing of justice.

Quoted from FishOutOfWater

As she once famously said, "The Lady's not for turning"... especially when something didn't suit her, the Hillsborough cover up being a case in point.

There's no way she would have done a "U" turn and tried to get the truth and to the bottom of what happened

I suspect Thatcher like most of the rest of us back then wouldnt have thought it possible that an whole police force could lie and cover up for each other like the south yorkshire one did.The innocents of believing that our Bobbies are good people is long since gone.I know people might say that there are some good coppers ect but out of all those 100s on duty that day how many came forward and put their honest accounts to the inquiry or the public ?

The real scum was in uniform that day

I see that Kelvin MacKenzie is now offering his "profuse apologies to the people of Liverpool". what an absolute cretin.

Quoted from Manchester Mariner

I see that Kelvin MacKenzie is now offering his "profuse apologies to the people of Liverpool". what an absolute cretin.

I think he should stand in the middle of anfield in front of a packed scouse crowd, and let him apoligise then and see what the scouser think to his apoligy.

[quote=293]I see that Kelvin MacKenzie is now offering his "profuse apologies to the people of Liverpool". what an absolute cretin.[/qu

Yeah he's a sharp object but he was only reporting the Police lies that he was being fed ,same goes for Thatcher.
As much as people would like to blame this on a right wing Tory cover up the real flilth are the flith.
Why did thye need to cover up and lie in the first place ?
If the had held their hands up straight away and admited they made some terrible mistakes that they would make sure would never happen again people probably could have forgive them.
Yes one or two of them would have been passed over for promotions and the odd one might have been fired for incompetence but now surely these people have to go to jail?
The police lied back in 1989 ,they will still lie today and the will lie tomorrow nothing well ever change there

Quoted from Manchester Mariner

I see that Kelvin MacKenzie is now offering his "profuse apologies to the people of Liverpool". what an absolute cretin.

Boris Johnson has some apologising to do as well.

His article on Scousers certainly laid the blame at drunken fans and not the police. Still he is such a ruddy character isn't he?

Not sure singling the police out as the ones with sole responsibility for this is appropiate. Lots of contributing factors making the blame game very unjust.

Quoted from psgmariner

Boris Johnson has some apologising to do as well.

His article on Scousers certainly laid the blame at drunken fans and not the police. Still he is such a ruddy character isn't he?

Not sure singling the police out as the ones with sole responsibility for this is appropiate. Lots of contributing factors making the blame game very unjust.

Theres a diffrence between making stupid statements in a newspaper and perjury,I hope any of the Police that changed statements or even the ones that stood silent and said nothing die in jail

Quoted from psgmariner

Boris Johnson has some apologising to do as well.

His article on Scousers certainly laid the blame at drunken fans and not the police. Still he is such a ruddy character isn't he?

  

You mean this ?


He's a typical politician; a chancer, an opportunist who will waffle the things that (regrettably) some people can nod and agree with.
He'll go far  

A lot of gut reaction today isn't there? The Indy is full of righteous indignation. The Mail would bring back hanging as usual. What has come out today is nothing new though, just more of it.

It was obvious that up to 41 more people might possibly have survived if they had treatment straightaway. The doctored police statements were already published a few years ago. We knew that the very few police had even fewer radios. We knew the coroner's illegal blood samples showed none of the victims had alcohol in them. (Well they wouldn't would they? The victims were the innocent first ones into the cage and the last ones to charge in couldn't have their blood tested could they?) We knew that the field gates were not opened in time. We knew that the exit gate was wrongly opened. We knew people were not guided into the empty side areas. We knew the man in charge had no experience and froze because he said so. All we have is more confirmation of all this.

If it is possible to apportion blame then stop talking about it and do it. Sue the police. Petition the Attorney General over the inquests, charge somebody over the falsification of evidence. Get on with it if the families think that will help them. Will it? Will it help anyone to shove a few long retired coppers in an open prison for a year or two after some hugely expensive show trials? I have my doubts.

At the risk of annoyance to some posters I have to say that today proves nothing new at all, at least to me. We know what happened. Those of us old enough to have seen football grounds before, during and after the cages know exactly why it happened too. That combination of circumstances cannot be repeated.

flipping twits, thatcher thatcher thatcher.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

At the risk of annoyance to some posters I have to say that today proves nothing new at all, at least to me. We know what happened. Those of us old enough to have seen football grounds before, during and after the cages know exactly why it happened too. That combination of circumstances cannot be repeated.

I can't help but wonder why you feel better placed to know what happened than an independent panel who've spend hundreds of hours pouring over evidence and concluded that their is no evidence of excessive drunkenness, violence or people forcing entry without tickets. I'm sure some people were drunk but the police should have done their jobs properly and protected those innocent fans at the front.

I also wonder, had you lost a 15 year old child, would you feel it so pointless to seek justice through the prosecution of those culpable. What are your views on the systematic falsification and destruction of evidence and the deliberate attempt to shift blame onto the people who'd suffered?

Quoted from Gary Haddock

I think he should stand in the middle of anfield in front of a packed scouse crowd, and let him apoligise then and see what the scouser think to his apoligy.

Public Stonings are not allowed in this country.
But surely an exeption could be made.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

A lot of gut reaction today isn't there?

Just to add RRFC - is it not the case that the reaction on here is based on fact, evidence and legal ruling, whilst your knowledge of what happened is based on your gut reaction of what you assume to have happened?

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

A lot of gut reaction today isn't there? The Indy is full of righteous indignation. The Mail would bring back hanging as usual. What has come out today is nothing new though, just more of it.

Some of the info might not be new but I don't think the sheer scale of the cover-up had ever been properly exposed until today. Stories of police corruption aren't exactly new but not to this level. It's absolutely disgusting and there's no way that the people responsible should be allowed to get away with it.

Quoted from aaron rattray

I watched it on itv and as a Liverpool fan i shall be eagerly awaiting the verdict tomorrow, to be fair to pc david duckenfield he didn't mean for people to die and it isn't his fault he was so inexperienced, but he shouldn't of lied, also one person who lost his 2 daughters went to get a coffee and went into a side pen, that probably saved his life, reminds of alfreton away last season

how old are you ?

Quoted from aaron rattray

my respect for david cameron has gone up through the roof as i suspect many others will regard david cameron much higher now

no cameron is still a twit regardless

Comparing Alfreton away to the Hillsborough disaster... Gobsmacked.

Quoted from Rodley Mariner

I can't help but wonder why you feel better placed to know what happened than an independent panel who've spend hundreds of hours pouring over evidence and concluded that their is no evidence of excessive drunkenness, violence or people forcing entry without tickets. I'm sure some people were drunk but the police should have done their jobs properly and protected those innocent fans at the front.

I also wonder, had you lost a 15 year old child, would you feel it so pointless to seek justice through the prosecution of those culpable. What are your views on the systematic falsification and destruction of evidence and the deliberate attempt to shift blame onto the people who'd suffered?

My views on those things are the same as yours Rodley, it is reprehensible. That wasn't my point though. If they want to pursue it then that is up to them and how they feel it will help them. But personally I happen to doubt that it will in the long run. Bitterness consumes.

As to your other observation, leaving aside the cover ups for the moment,  I am only speaking from experience of seeing what grounds, policing and supporters were like from the 60s onwards. Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen, just like Ibrox and Bradford, but what did happen was far worse than even I expected. The problem with long range reports like this is that no matter how good they are, how diligently they assess the evidence, how honestly they present the findings - they can only report on the hard evidence that is available to them and they cannot account for a wider context or culture.

Just one example - SWFC have apologised and rightly so but Hillsborough was a long way from being the only ground that was struggling with fan segregation, the  cages business and ticketed admission that were brought in to prevent pitch invasions and fighting. The club obviously followed what it had done for the identical fixture the previous year in the belief that if it worked then it would work again. It didn't. You could call SWFC culpable or unlucky or both. Lots of other ground managers would have been thinking "There but for the grace of God ..." The same applies to Bradford doesn't it? After we saw that fire on TV it put the fear of God into people used to being in a wooden stand for years.

Sorry to go on Rodley, I just feel that there is more breadth to this story than a simplistic blame, prosecute and hang 'em attitude we are seeing in the media.

By the way, by birth I really should be Bramley Mariner.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

A lot of gut reaction today isn't there? The Indy is full of righteous indignation. The Mail would bring back hanging as usual. What has come out today is nothing new though, just more of it.

It was obvious that up to 41 more people might possibly have survived if they had treatment straightaway. The doctored police statements were already published a few years ago. We knew that the very few police had even fewer radios. We knew the coroner's illegal blood samples showed none of the victims had alcohol in them. (Well they wouldn't would they? The victims were the innocent first ones into the cage and the last ones to charge in couldn't have their blood tested could they?) We knew that the field gates were not opened in time. We knew that the exit gate was wrongly opened. We knew people were not guided into the empty side areas. We knew the man in charge had no experience and froze because he said so. All we have is more confirmation of all this.

If it is possible to apportion blame then stop talking about it and do it. Sue the police. Petition the Attorney General over the inquests, charge somebody over the falsification of evidence. Get on with it if the families think that will help them. Will it? Will it help anyone to shove a few long retired coppers in an open prison for a year or two after some hugely expensive show trials? I have my doubts.

At the risk of annoyance to some posters I have to say that today proves nothing new at all, at least to me. We know what happened. Those of us old enough to have seen football grounds before, during and after the cages know exactly why it happened too. That combination of circumstances cannot be repeated.

The point is that football fans died on that day and the Police have lied, covered up the truth, but most importantly blamed the Liverpool fans for the disaster. A cloud hung over the City of Liverpool, drunken fans, hooligans and supporters robbing the dead reported by the Sun newspaper, WHICH WERE LIES. This is why the families of 96 victims have had to keep on fighting for their loved ones for 23 years, which totally unacceptable.  How would you feel if loved one did not come home after a football and was told that they had died because their were drunk and a hooligan, would you not fight to clear their name, whatever it takes. I know I would. JUSTICE IS REQUIRED and everyone should support the families, so that those accountable as brought to justice.  

Quoted from The Yard Dog

The point is that football fans died on that day and the Police have lied, covered up the truth, but most importantly blamed the Liverpool fans for the disaster. A cloud hung over the City of Liverpool, drunken fans, hooligans and supporters robbing the dead reported by the Sun newspaper, WHICH WERE LIES. This is why the families of 96 victims have had to keep on fighting for their loved ones for 23 years, which totally unacceptable.  How would you feel if loved one did not come home after a football and was told that they had died because their were drunk and a hooligan, would you not fight to clear their name, whatever it takes. I know I would. JUSTICE IS REQUIRED and everyone should support the families, so that those accountable as brought to justice.  

Fair enough, you are clear in your opinion. May I just ask - exactly who would you put in the dock and what punishments do you think would give the families justice?

Ronraffertyfanclub. . . If everything was already known. . . Why were there gasps of amazement in parliament today when the scale of the injustice was announced?  I think you have posted a statement which you believed in before today and are standing by it regardless of what haa been presented today!

You are right to think you may annoy people. . . You have annoyed me, not by disrespecting the feelings of lfc families (they wont readthe ignorant ramblings of an ignoramous on a mesageboard for a two-bob non league football club. . . No, you annoy me because  you are one of tgose who assume they are right and fail to adapt your stance despite overwhelming evidence that you should!

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

Fair enough, you are clear in your opinion. May I just ask - exactly who would you put in the dock and what punishments do you think would give the families justice?

Those that have broken the law. . . Thats sort of how the legal system works!

Perverting the course of justice, involuntary manslaughter, abuse of power in public office. . . That's how the law works. . . Not by garnering the opinion of posters on a messageboard!

RRFC - I agree that it's more complicated than 'It's the fault of the police' but what needs to stop now is the insinuation that drunk, violent, ticketless Liverpool fans caused this, that somehow Liverpool as a group of supporters were asking for it. It's been proven categorically that this wasn't the case. It's been evidenced that this was a narrative created by the South Yorks police to try and cover their own failings yet still people, including supposedly educated men like Boris Johnson seem to accept this as fact. Going off topic, if he manages to 'amiable buffoon' his way to PM we might as well all give up.

As for the what next; maybe some families want legal action and maybe others don't. Those that do are entitled to it. Negligent actions of senior members of South Yorkshire police led to the deaths of 96 innocent people and they should be accountable, the fact that it'd be expensive and bring nobody back is of no consequence and isn't how our justice system works. Likewise, those complicit in the cover up of what actually happened; to try and smear the dead and dig up criminal records on them is utterly sickening and unforgivable.

As for Bramley - only just up the road although I'm now round the corner in Farsley. By the way, nice to have this debate sensibly without being labelled a moron or worse!

I'm pretty sure a dossier of names could be made up from all of those documents and those people made to account for their stories.
Personally I'd start with Irvine Patnick, the Sheffield MP of the time who I'm pretty certain began the chain of lies that certain parts of the media grabbed hold of. He was very certain of what he had believed to have happened, even going as far as to say he'd met police officers who'd told of the fans beating up police officers, that he'd seen the bruises on them to back this up, and that these officers had confirmed the fans were all in a drunken state. I'd just like to see if he would be prepared to repeat what he said on oath.
He certainly should be accountable for his very damaging words that day.

Quoted from 1054

Those that have broken the law. . . Thats sort of how the legal system works!

Perverting the course of justice, involuntary manslaughter, abuse of power in public office. . . That's how the law works. . . Not by garnering the opinion of posters on a messageboard!

Actually found an opinion of yours I agree with. It's plain common sense if they have broken the law, they should be punished, the evidance is there now, no excuses for not convicting those responsible, for the conspiracy, negligence and perverting the course of justice.

Quoted from aaron rattray

my respect for david cameron has gone up through the roof as i suspect many others will regard david cameron much higher now

CamerOn has only said sorry because he's got to although I don't doubt that he does feel for the families. However we all know another cover up will happen when it comes to dishing out punishments now to the lying illegitimates and the incompetent idiots who were in charge and blame everyone but themselves.

Quoted from 1054

Those that have broken the law. . . Thats sort of how the legal system works!

Perverting the course of justice, involuntary manslaughter, abuse of power in public office. . . That's how the law works. . . Not by garnering the opinion of posters on a messageboard!

Agreed. But could you be specific? Which individuals do you think were guilty of these crimes? Some seem obvious but there must be a good few dead or hidden away. To establish that will need something like the Bloody Sunday investigation. That took years and cost millions. Mind you I did notice Michael Mansfield was involved in that as well.