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The truth of hillsborough

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TheRonRaffertyFanClub
September 11, 2012, 2:03pm
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It doesn't do to believe everything you see on the telly. Two people can watch a piece of CCTV and interpret it in completely different ways. Last night's programme was about the tragic victims and their families and I wish it had been left at that. To start pre-judging what will be revealed tomorrow was wrong in my opinion and just stirred up the ill-feeling.

One good thing about the programme was that it mentioned how football was different then. Hillsborough as a ground was no less safe than Anfield or Old Trafford or Villa Park. Marinette's point about the fences is important. They were there because of the trouble caused by hooligans and they were all around every ground. Up to about 1962 there was no trouble at football games and the only danger was from accidental crowd crushing through overcrowding usually on the way in or out. Even then it was rare. If you think of how many people used the steps at the back of the Barrett Stand when average gates at BP were 10000+, there were no problems. People just waited. Different world.

It was also normal by the 1970s for a lot of young men to go to big games deliberately without a ticket and force their way in by climbing the gates and walls or rushing turnstiles in a gang so that at least some of them would make it before the law could stop them. Liverpool fans were not the only ones but it is daft to deny this didn't happen. Surging was also normal. I can remember being terrified at the City Ground in Nottingham when a huge surge of latecoming Forest fans hurled us down the terraces at the Trent End and onto the cage fence. Yet there wasn't a big crowd and I had been in the same place 15 years before with no bother at all for full house matches when Forest were at the top of the old Div 1.

Whatever is said tomorrow cannot bring back the dead. Bad decisions were made by the police, we all know that. The ground was unsafe, we all know that too. I hope though that people will also think about the way football supporters, including Liverpool ones, behaved at the time and not whitewash 100% of the blame onto the law.


“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.”
― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty."
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BIGChris
September 11, 2012, 2:17pm
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Well said RRFC.
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grimsby pete
September 11, 2012, 2:48pm

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The problem was people were getting crushed at the turnstiles,

Opening the side gate was the correct thing to do,

BUT

What should have happened next is, the police direct the fans to the two end paddocks which were less than half full,

This did not happen and most of the fans just poured into the tunnel unrestricted and then tragedy,

I was at a Sheff Wed v Man Utd game a year before this happened and I could see there was a big danger of crushing occurring then,

This time the police kepy an end paddock empty and was making sure the middle was full before they open the other paddocks,

I said to a copper the stand was full, he replied, " We can get a few more in before we have to open the side paddock, "

I said, Well you will have to open it in a minute because there are another few thousand outside,  A few minutes later when people were getting a bit squashed he open the end paddock,

So my son in law and myself went in and stood in safety,

Why did this tragedy have to happen when a bit of common sense could have prevented it ?

RIP the 96.


                             Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
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cod.gtfc
September 11, 2012, 2:55pm

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Quoted from aaron rattray
I watched it on itv and as a Liverpool fan i shall be eagerly awaiting the verdict tomorrow, to be fair to pc david duckenfield he didn't mean for people to die and it isn't his fault he was so inexperienced, but he shouldn't of lied, also one person who lost his 2 daughters went to get a coffee and went into a side pen, that probably saved his life, reminds of alfreton away last season


I thought you was only 16, how did you watch it? unless you mean you watched the programme "the truth about hillsborough"
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TheRonRaffertyFanClub
September 11, 2012, 3:03pm
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Why did this tragedy have to happen when a bit of common sense could have prevented it ?

RIP the 96.[/quote]

That's very true Pete. I'd just ask a question - why would a policeman have the key to a gate inside the ground? As far as my experience is concerned the police could ask for a gate to be opened or whatever but it was down to the club to actually do it. The police responsibility was outside of the ground so shouldn't club stewards have been responsible for shepherding people into empty pens?

In those days as Marinette said, things were different and I think the police were there for public order, that is to keep rival fans segregated inside & outside the ground and deal with pitch invaders. They were not there for public safety matters except in an advisory capacity so something like this disaster would be outside their training and experience and maybe even their orders. It doesn't excuse bad decisions but it puts a perspective on it that people who weren't around at the time perhaps don't realise.


“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.”
― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty."
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grimsby pete
September 11, 2012, 3:04pm

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Quoted from cod.gtfc


I thought you was only 16, how did you watch it? unless you mean you watched the programme "the truth about hillsborough"


I thought I saw arron at that game.


                             Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
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Gary Haddock
September 11, 2012, 3:21pm

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Why did this tragedy have to happen when a bit of common sense could have prevented it ?

RIP the 96.


That's very true Pete. I'd just ask a question - why would a policeman have the key to a gate inside the ground? As far as my experience is concerned the police could ask for a gate to be opened or whatever but it was down to the club to actually do it. The police responsibility was outside of the ground so shouldn't club stewards have been responsible for shepherding people into empty pens?

[/quote]

that's very good point, and hopefully the whole truth comes out, because it's been up for debate for 23 years now and it must hell for the famillies of the victims.


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1mickylyons
September 11, 2012, 5:56pm
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Emotive subject and indeed the truth needs to come out but sometimes people should simply look in the mirror  and accept responsability for there own actions I remember watching the FA Cup Final that Season and before kick off loads of ticketless Liverpool supporters were cadging there way in.Tickets and capacities were set in place for a reason and despite Hillsborough some chose to ignore and could have caused a further tragedy in a decaying Wembley.
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Grim up north
September 11, 2012, 6:25pm
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I used to split watching Town and Chelsea and remember going not long after when it was still a crime scene ,to see the damage was frightening but as people have pointed out ,at that time Liverpool and a fair few other teams were known to turn up late without tickets and rush the gates , not the sole cause but a lot of things were at fault ,,not just the police.
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grimps
September 11, 2012, 7:00pm
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Like all disasters this was caused by many diffrent factors ,Police ,Ground and stewards,the F.A for not giving the scousers the kop as they had the previous season,and of course the Scouse fans.
the police like they still do to day closed in on themselves and made sure their arses was coverd ,lied for each other and as in so many other cases against the police they ''lost evidence ''.
The scouse fans never accepted any blame for their own fans which  without late comers ticketless and drunk fans the disaster wouldnt have happened.
Ive never heard them screaming for justice for the 30 odd killed at Heysels but they do like a bit of a campaign ,protest or minutes silence at any opportunity for any other reason.
At the end of the day it was a accident and the biggest tribute ever paid to those familys was the way we got our act togther after this,we built some of the best safest all seater staduims in the world and made this the safest place in the world to watch football.
Theres your justice now let sleeping dogs lie
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