Should England take the knee.?

So, I'm not into this political stuff and don't know enough to comment on this particular thread.  I have one question though, some players do the Black Power salute when they take a knee, is that something that is acceptable, or not?

Quoted from 123614

So, I'm not into this political stuff and don't know enough to comment on this particular thread.  I have one question though, some players do the Black Power salute when they take a knee, is that something that is acceptable, or not?

A concise summary here:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-53098516

My own question is, what are all the other teams in the Euros doing?

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Fans do not go to a game to be preached at; the vast, vast majority of fans would tell someone in authority if they heard any racism in a stadium so why the need for virtue signalling at games?  

Really? There’s no evidence to back this up either way, but I’d suggest that that’s way off the mark, and lots of fans turn a blind eye.

And fans don’t go to a match to be preached at, you’re right, but players don’t play in matches to be racially abused either, yet it happens every week. And I think this is what it boils down to. The main argument is that the gesture doesn’t belong on the pitch, it’s political, but it’s the racists who have brought us to the point where these gestures have become necessary. Racism isn’t limited to football, it’s a societal thing, so it should be no surprise that the current reactions/gestures on the pitch are linked to off the pitch politics and current events.

And while the gesture clearly started out as a link to BLM, it’s meaning can be whatever the individual doing it wants it to be. If the players say it’s merely a stance against racism, then it is. If they were still wearing Black Lives Matter slogans, that would obviously be different, but they’re not.

Quoted from Mariner93er

And fans don’t go to a match to be preached at, you’re right, but players don’t play in matches to be racially abused either, yet it happens every week. And I think this is what it boils down to. The main argument is that the gesture doesn’t belong on the pitch, it’s political, but it’s the racists who have brought us to the point where these gestures have become necessary. Racism isn’t limited to football, it’s a societal thing, so it should be no surprise that the current reactions/gestures on the pitch are linked to off the pitch politics and current events.
t.

What Iam glad about though is all this talk about racism at the moment helps  filters onto other things and hopefully improve things there as well . To often whilst at school/collage and in training youngsters at football Ive seen a lot of hypocrisy which winds me up. Even amongst some teachers as well. "I hate racism" because the media/ or an anti racist  movement has gathered pace and they dont want to be on the outside. Yet quite a few of these people will go on and bully/mock someone on the basic of their academic  ability/ looks or even social standing. This affects people  personally on a deep level just as it would if someone receives racist abuse. I know because I have delt with youngsters who have been affected deeply by bullying in my job /football training . I hope one day bullying in all forms is eradicated and people can be who they are without being picked on for whatever reason. Hence variety is life.

Quoted from Rick12

What Iam glad about though is all this talk about racism at the moment helps  filters onto other things and hopefully improve things there as well . To often whilst at school/collage and in training youngsters at football Ive seen a lot of hypocrisy which winds me up. Even amongst some teachers as well. "I hate racism" because the media/ or an anti racist  movement has gathered pace and they dont want to be on the outside. Yet quite a few of these people will go on and bully/mock someone on the basic of their academic  ability/ looks or even social standing. This affects people  personally on a deep level just as it would if someone receives racist abuse. I know because I have delt with youngsters who have been affected deeply by bullying in my job /football training . I hope one day bullying in all forms is eradicated and people can be who they are without being picked on for whatever reason. Hence variety is life.

Good point. Bullying is fundamentally picking out someone's differences and abusing/mocking/humiliating them for that difference. If you're black, less able, LGBT or just overweight you should not be singled out for abuse because of it. And you should have the same opportunities and be treated fairly.

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

Good point. Bullying is fundamentally picking out someone's differences and abusing/mocking/humiliating them for that difference. If you're black, less able, LGBT or just overweight you should not be singled out for abuse because of it. And you should have the same opportunities and be treated fairly.

Yes Bobby. Its what I tell youngsters in one of my jobs who are underprivileged and been affected deeply by trauma. Everyone has gifts. Some people are cleverer than you but you might be better than them at football etc. Dont ever put yourself down. We all have something good to offer society if we search deep within.

Quoted from Mariner93er

Really? There’s no evidence to back this up either way, but I’d suggest that that’s way off the mark, and lots of fans turn a blind eye.

And fans don’t go to a match to be preached at, you’re right, but players don’t play in matches to be racially abused either, yet it happens every week. And I think this is what it boils down to. The main argument is that the gesture doesn’t belong on the pitch, it’s political, but it’s the racists who have brought us to the point where these gestures have become necessary. Racism isn’t limited to football, it’s a societal thing, so it should be no surprise that the current reactions/gestures on the pitch are linked to off the pitch politics and current events.

And while the gesture clearly started out as a link to BLM, it’s meaning can be whatever the individual doing it wants it to be. If the players say it’s merely a stance against racism, then it is. If they were still wearing Black Lives Matter slogans, that would obviously be different, but they’re not.

I am 53 years old. I have attended football matches regularly since I was 8 or so. I have only ever seen someone called out for racially abusing a player once.

And abuse in the stadium is now less of an issue than abuse on social media. After losing the recent Europa League game Marcus Rashford received somewhere in the region of 70 different messages that included clear racial abuse. There is a video on the BBC website of Ian Wright showing Alan Shearer the racial abuse he receives on social media on a daily basis.

Quoted from Rick12

What Iam glad about though is all this talk about racism.

How do we stop racism?
“Stop talking about it,” “I’m going to stop calling you a white man, and I’m going to ask you to stop calling me a black man.”

Morgan Freeman.

Quoted from Mariner93er

And while the gesture clearly started out as a link to BLM, its meaning can be whatever the individual doing it wants it to be. If the players say it’s merely a stance against racism, then it is. If they were still wearing Black Lives Matter slogans, that would obviously be different, but they’re not.

For me this is the crux of it, and where I strongly disagree. No small group of individuals gets to redefine such a world-famous prominent gesture like taking the knee. I give the benefit of the doubt to the players that they mean well, but how on earth do they think they can do the BLM kneeling gesture without everyone else in the world thinking it's supporting BLM? They're about to play in an international tournament to a global audience. The vast majority of people watching will be currently unaware of the fact that England will take the knee. They won't know who Gareth Southgate is or what he has said on the subject. All they will see is the England players taking the knee as BLM have done for months and assume it's in support of them. It's beyond naive to not recognise that.

To put it mildly, BLM have some dubious political ideas. A significant number of people will feel they are a movement the players should not be promoting. Even if you agree with everything they do, you really shouldn't be happy about the link. As an analogy, I'm an ardent remainer. I live in France and Brexit has had a massively negative impact on my life. However, if the players all did a pre-game gesture showing support for rejoining the EU I would be equally as critical.

Quoted from MeanwoodMariner

As an analogy, I'm an ardent remainer. I live in France and Brexit has had a massively negative impact on my life. However, if the players all did a pre-game gesture showing support for rejoining the EU I would be equally as critical.

It’s a really, very bad analogy.

Different things are different.