Should England take the knee.?

Quoted from MeanwoodMariner

For me this is the crux of it, and where I strongly disagree. No small group of individuals gets to redefine such a world-famous prominent gesture like taking the knee. I give the benefit of the doubt to the players that they mean well, but how on earth do they think they can do the BLM kneeling gesture without everyone else in the world thinking it's supporting BLM? They're about to play in an international tournament to a global audience. The vast majority of people watching will be currently unaware of the fact that England will take the knee. They won't know who Gareth Southgate is or what he has said on the subject. All they will see is the England players taking the knee as BLM have done for months and assume it's in support of them. It's beyond naive to not recognise that.

To put it mildly, BLM have some dubious political ideas. A significant number of people will feel they are a movement the players should not be promoting. Even if you agree with everything they do, you really shouldn't be happy about the link. As an analogy, I'm an ardent remainer. I live in France and Brexit has had a massively negative impact on my life. However, if the players all did a pre-game gesture showing support for rejoining the EU I would be equally as critical.

Good points well argued. I think there is a 'watch out' with some of what you raise.

Black Lives Matter was not set up as a formal organisation, the phrase was used as a rallying point for black equality protests following the murder of black people by police in the US. Some groups have aligned themselves to the organisation (as much as it is an organisation) who clearly have political agendas that some will find unpalatable. Just as right wing groups attaching themselves to issues like Brexit is unpalatable to others.

The alignment of Black Lives Matter to issues like Marxism and defunding the police (which is much more of an issue in the US than in the UK) is because of those organisations who identify and align themselves with it, not BLM itself.

Furthermore, those angles are hugely amplified by the UK media because the UK media loves a bogeyman and is (in the majority of cases) run by white, rich, old men who's view of the world and comfortable existence is supported by a conservative (small C intentional) government that promotes low taxation, low oversight of business, 'flexible' business laws and a general air of letting them do whatever they want.

BLM is a direct threat to this view of the world because it is promoting change in society and a fairer, more equitable society. Fair and equitable societies lead to rich white men (who have probably been to certain schools and universities) losing their power and some of their wealth.

Britain will never be a Marxist country and we will never support defunding the police, we are just not made like that - we currently have a Conservative government with an 83 seat majority! But we also respond to some of our basic fears being stoked and BLM is a very useful vehicle for stoking those fears.

What some people see when England take the knee,



Before we know it, the country will be like Venezuela. 😁

Quoted from Humbercod

How do we stop racism?
“Stop talking about it,” “I’m going to stop calling you a white man, and I’m going to ask you to stop calling me a black man.”

Morgan Freeman.

“Being a storyteller, I believe that is important to champion each other’s unique voices,” he said in the post. “For the next week, if you are willing to share the personal stories you’ve experienced with racism, I’ll dedicate my platforms to amplify your voice.

Morgan Freeman 2020

Racism is built upon ignorance and you don’t solve it with more ignorance.

Quoted from Humbercod

How do we stop racism?
“Stop talking about it,” “I’m going to stop calling you a white man, and I’m going to ask you to stop calling me a black man.”

Morgan Freeman.

What's most important is what someone heart is like Humbercod. This gets through to most and can help heal or go a long way to help trauma. A inspirational person I met for instance was a Sikh math teacher  who helped me enormously whilst at collage. Had a beautiful heart.  

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

The alignment of Black Lives Matter to issues like Marxism and defunding the police (which is much more of an issue in the US than in the UK) is because of those organisations who identify and align themselves with it, not BLM itself.

.

I beg to differ, a casual search will bring this up from BlackLivesMatter.com.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-defunding-the-police-really-means/

Quoted from 123614

I beg to differ, a casual search will bring this up from BlackLivesMatter.com.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-defunding-the-police-really-means/

You put a link to the US Black Lives Matter website where defunding the police is an aim, it is not such an issue in the UK because the police are not seen as a direct danger to the black community. The very source of BLM was US police officers shooting black 'suspects' with no apparent regard for the value of their lives.

You have used a US website to support a myopic view of BLM in a discussion about whether England players should take the knee or not before a football match. This website proves or illustrates nothing about the UK BLM organisation (in as much as it is one), it's aims or motives.

Even the phrase 'defund' the police is misappropriated by those wishing to paint BLM as a threat to society. It is presented in the right wing press as a move to abandon policing and introduce anarchy. In fact the idea varies and is interpreted widely by a number of groups under the BLM banner from radical changes (NOT in the UK) to funding reviews to use part of budgets that normally go to the police for other purposes that still promote law and order.

You have also chosen to ignore my comment about accepting that BLM has attracted some elements that some people find unpalatable.

I have fallen into a trap here and I'm kicking myself for it.

The debate is not about BLM it is about black people being abused for the colour of their skin in the UK today and that is unacceptable and has to change.

I’ve been thinking about what to write here so apologies if it’s a bit longwinded.

I’m white and my partner is black. We’re both from working class backgrounds, my dad was a decky and her mum was a nurse.

Growing up I didn’t know anyone that was black. I didn’t know anyone who wasn’t English, white and working class. In this environment it’s very easy to assume racism isn’t a big issue.

Since I’ve been with my partner I’ve seen a lot of first hand racism, from sly little comments about ‘dark fruit’ to people shouting ‘flipping black person’ in the street outside our house. My wife is a specialist doctor and even had somebody refuse to let her daughter see her as she wanted her to see somebody ‘more like her’.

This type of obvious racism is clearly unacceptable in the modern world and the vast, vast majority of people would see it as abhorrent and speak out against it when they see it. Thankfully it’s a rare occurrence to witness it, especially if you’re white.

Sports like football are one of the very few meritocracies in the world. It really doesn’t matter what class, race or religion you are, if you are good enough and driven enough you can make it. This is going to produce a diverse group of players and it’s not surprising that they are keen to make a stand against racism.

I really can’t see how a few seconds of kneeling before a game can get anyone so wound up. I can’t see any reason to pay to go to game and choose to boo your own players before a ball has been kicked!  

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

You put a link to the US Black Lives Matter website where defunding the police is an aim, it is not such an issue in the UK because the police are not seen as a direct danger to the black community. The very source of BLM was US police officers shooting black 'suspects' with no apparent regard for the value of their lives.

You have used a US website to support a myopic view of BLM in a discussion about whether England players should take the knee or not before a football match. This website proves or illustrates nothing about the UK BLM organisation (in as much as it is one), it's aims or motives.

Even the phrase 'defund' the police is misappropriated by those wishing to paint BLM as a threat to society. It is presented in the right wing press as a move to abandon policing and introduce anarchy. In fact the idea varies and is interpreted widely by a number of groups under the BLM banner from radical changes (NOT in the UK) to funding reviews to use part of budgets that normally go to the police for other purposes that still promote law and order.

You have also chosen to ignore my comment about accepting that BLM has attracted some elements that some people find unpalatable.

This debate has talked about much more than just UK footballers taking the knee.  Also, NO ONE has picked up the Black Power salute comment I made, are you choosing to ignore that, even Marcus Rashford has been seen to do that whilst taking the knee.

Quoted from 123614

This debate has talked about much more than just UK footballers taking the knee.  Also, NO ONE has picked up the Black Power salute comment I made, are you choosing to ignore that, even Marcus Rashford has been seen to do that whilst taking the knee.

I am unclear on why you raised the black power salute. Would you please expand on your view of it and why it is a good or bad thing.

Thank you.