Just back  (merged)

The positives? Three points, Danny Rose, Jake Eastwood and Donovan Wilson.

The rest? Move on to Saturday.

Got away with one there.

Football eh? Barrow were the better side in the first half and totally dominant in the second. We seemed to be defending from the 46th minute onwards and barely saw the whites of Farman's eyes, and yet we come away with the 3 points, despite missing a penalty.

What we did do, penalty apart, was take 2 of the few chances that came along, which were both smart finishes, and shows the value of having half decent strikers in the team.

The defence looked all at sea for large parts, and the ball was just getting whacked or headed anywhere and coming straight back. No one seemingly with the nous to put their foot on it and try to play out. Barrow seemed to manage passing to their own players though, and once again, a massive hole appeared down the centre, and a player strolls through unmarked to slot the ball past our keeper. Then it was all hands to the pump and I don't know how we managed to hold on, but we did.

Thought Andrews had a very promising full debut and was instrumental in the winning goal. Holohan worked his socks off and Wilson showed once again that given the chances, he can deliver.

Bit hit and miss from the others, and Waterfall seems to unbalance the defence, but we showed grit and got the job done.

Welcome 3 points.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

The positives? Three points, Danny Rose, Jake Eastwood and Donovan Wilson.

The rest? Move on to Saturday.

Not sure how you cant give credit to Andrews and Holohan?

It was a painful watch but 3 points, thats all I wanted tonight.

We won which is very welcome news.

But, and it is a big But, what the hell are we trying to do? Anybody got any ideas? We are absolutely clueless and as slow and ponderous than I have seen in many a season.

Barrow moved the ball with purpose,  moved into space and half the time it was just a rear guard action to keep them out.

Hurst has managed to turn better technical into a shambles.

We have absolutely no urgency in anything we do, as personified by the casual penalty and the half hearted effort to put the rebound in.

I'm hoping a couple of scruffy wins might give us a bit of confidence but we are absolutely dire.

Quoted from Hagrid

Not sure how you cant give credit to Andrews and Holohan?

It was a painful watch but 3 points, thats all I wanted tonight.

Holohan lost possession way too easily tonight, Andrews was decent and was our best midfielder.

Boredom for most parts, anxiety for a majority of the rest and just a small pinch of enjoyment.
Andrews I thought played well and would be my m.o.m but Rogers close behind.
Will take the points but pretty fortunate to get them overall.

A scrappy 3 points that stopped the rot, that's all you can really say about tonight

Thought Andrews was MOM - first half in particular he gave us drive oomph.

But Barrow will wonder how they've come away with nothing. Pace, power, energy...everything we weren't; today.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

Holohan lost possession way too easily tonight, Andrews was decent and was our best midfielder.

He won possession lots of times and stopped quite a few breaks.

Brazil (sorry Barrow) ripped us open repeatedly but our genius manager saved the day with another substitution producing an immediate goal

I don’t get to many games , this was poor. 2nd best for most of the game but two well taken goals . C+ must improve

Quoted from CSLM

He won possession lots of times and stopped quite a few breaks.

And our midfield was so good we ended up playing five defenders! Even Hurst’s post match interview admits we were crap.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

And our midfield was so good we ended up playing five defenders! Even Hurst’s post match interview admits we were crap.

Dont think anyones saying we wernt. We just feel 2 players you didnt mention did allright?

Just like my school report - Could do better. Barrow must feel robbed. Take the three points.
I wonder what this team practice in training, as they seem to be devoid of where there team mates are or unable to pass to them

Quoted from MuddyWaters

And our midfield was so good we ended up playing five defenders! Even Hurst’s post match interview admits we were crap.

Our midfield wasn't great and Holohan did lose possession a few times, but to give him his due, he won a lot back for us too and kept trying.

I thought Andrews was good for his first start and our MOM.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

And our midfield was so good we ended up playing five defenders! Even Hurst’s post match interview admits we were crap.

Yeah I know what you mean.
I thought Andrews and Hollohan did well but that does feel odd as we were dominated.

One thing I did notice was once Rose went off we didn't win the ball up top once. We desperately need him to stay fit.

Quoted from Hagrid

Dont think anyones saying we wernt. We just feel 2 players you didnt mention did allright?

Andrews did alright but we couldn’t keep the ball. I’ve listened to Paul Hurst, he isn’t happy with our performance and I think he’s right.

Quoted from CSLM

Yeah I know what you mean.
I thought Andrews and Hollohan did well but that does feel odd as we were dominated.

One thing I did notice was once Rose went off we didn't win the ball up top once. We desperately need him to stay fit.

He’s a different level when he goes up for them headers, don’t think I’ve seen him lose one yet

Funny old game. Worst we've played all season and we win.

How we went in at half time in front I will never know. They were much the better side and we couldn't get near them. Some fabulous defending from waterfall, Efete and especially Rodgers who I thought was the stand out MoM.

Amazed at the praise for Andrews with some saying he was the star man. Looked tidy on the ball but didn't see enough of it, hit a couple of really good passes, but at the minute much of the game passes him by, he struggled to get close enough to make any tackles and was easily out muscled quite a few times. Hopefully he will improve as he can clearly pass. Thought Holohan was the pick of the bunch in the middle.

Props to Hurst for changing shape and bring Maher on, that steadied us and the subs improved us.

A much needed win!!!

Quoted from MuddyWaters

Andrews did alright but we couldn’t keep the ball. I’ve listened to Paul Hurst, he isn’t happy with our performance and I think he’s right.

I agree with he and you, there was nothing convincing in the performance but hopefully just one of them
Games in which the luck was in for us

Quoted from Germo66

Just like my school report - Could do better. Barrow must feel robbed. Take the three points.
I wonder what this team practice in training, as they seem to be devoid of where there team mates are or unable to pass to them

I've been saying this for weeks. What ARE they doing in training? How come Barrow can pass the ball with purpose and verve, and ours are hopeful, under hit, over hit, too long,too short or just an aimless punt into no man's land.

Of course there are some good bits but honestly we are boring to watch, lacklustre and have no obvious style or any sense of urgency and we are so short of pace.

Quoted from Hagrid

I agree with he and you, there was nothing convincing in the performance but hopefully just one of them
Games in which the luck was in for us

Well we got consensus in the end. Nothing beats three points but three points weren’t necessarily deserved tonight.

won yes, but we were rubbish. that's all I can say

Tonight looked like, after building a squad in the summer to try and control possession and be an aggressive high-pressing team, and starting the season with that philosophy, we've abandoned that in favour of being a solid grafting team inviting pressure and almost playing percentage football.

I get that after a few losses we needed to do something. I guess I'd have liked to have seen us just tweak what we were doing or get better in the final third to convert those defeats/draws into wins. I know we won tonight which is all that counts from a game of football, but I'd be more worried about us if that was our approach to future games tonight, than if we were trying to play like we did at Swindon/Bradford etc.

I think PH has started a couple of seasons in the past with wanting us to play more football, but abandoned it at the first sign of it not working and reverted to what he knows as the solid safe approach. I'd hope that after building a squad this summer with some transfer fees paid, to be a better team technically and playing better football, that we wouldn't do the same by the end of September this season.

Will be interested to see how we approach the next few games.

But bottom line delighted to get 3 points tonight and ease a bit of pressure.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

I've been saying this for weeks. What ARE they doing in training? How come Barrow can pass the ball with purpose and verve, and ours are hopeful, under hit, over hit, too long,too short or just an aimless punt into no man's land.

Of course there are some good bits but honestly we are boring to watch, lacklustre and have no obvious style or any sense of urgency and we are so short of pace.

Whether you liked it or not, previous managers have brought an identifiable style of play. Buckley 1 was pass and move with Rees as the linking forward, ball into feet, and runners going one side or the other, Slade 1 was ball over the top to Reddy to exploit his pace, Buckley 2 Groves won the ball, passed to Burnett, who fed Donovan, who then crossed for Groves to head home.

Trying to describe Hurst’s style of play is difficult to define. Broadly it seems to be having one isolated frontman to try and win the ball with his back to goal, midfielders who help the ball on, and often turn possession into 50/50’s (Clifton being a good example tonight), and hoping for individual moments of genius from Eisa or Khan.

It defies belief that we work on this in training, and Barrow were far far better to watch tonight. To have not even collected one point against us, let alone three was scandalous. In the second half we offered nothing, and seemed content to defend en masse for almost half the match.

Tonight may be an extreme example, but it follows a pattern of play that is far too frequent. I’m amazed that crowds are holding up so well when this is the product on offer.

Pleased with the three points but I'll be damned if I can work out what we're actually aiming to do going forward. There's no obvious game plan or pattern of play which was in stark contrast to some of the crisp play from Barrow who looked decent at times. Their movement was purposeful and well timed showing that it's been worked on and drilled in to them. Our movement is disjointed and sometimes non-existent, particularly from the central midfielders who don't seem to run beyond the play to stretch the defence but also rarely seem to pick the ball up in pockets of space. Holohan did some great work defensively but he's just not very good with the ball at his feet and his movement off the ball is extremely poor.

We're just a bit of a nothing side. We're neither quite technically good enough or well drilled enough to move the ball quickly between the lines to create chances that way. We keep the ball but don't move it quickly enough to actually move the opposition around to create space. But we also don't have the physical attributes to be successful at going more direct, although early signs are that Wilson who I think looks good may give us a better chance at that route. We don't seem to have an obvious aim such as to get the ball out wide and fill the box or to slide passes in behind for midfield runners. Frankly a lot of the time it looks like the players don't quite know what the aim is either and that might be what slows some of our play down. We're basically reliant on the fact that Rose and Eisa are better than average players for this division.

Happy with the three points but I'm just a bit dejected overall after that. We won't be going down but we won't be troubling the play offs either in my opinion.

Quoted from mariner91

Pleased with the three points but I'll be damned if I can work out what we're actually aiming to do going forward. There's no obvious game plan or pattern of play which was in stark contrast to some of the crisp play from Barrow who looked decent at times. Their movement was purposeful and well timed showing that it's been worked on and drilled in to them. Our movement is disjointed and sometimes non-existent, particularly from the central midfielders who don't seem to run beyond the play to stretch the defence but also rarely seem to pick the ball up in pockets of space. Holohan did some great work defensively but he's just not very good with the ball at his feet and his movement off the ball is extremely poor.

We're just a bit of a nothing side. We're neither quite technically good enough or well drilled enough to move the ball quickly between the lines to create chances that way. We keep the ball but don't move it quickly enough to actually move the opposition around to create space. But we also don't have the physical attributes to be successful at going more direct, although early signs are that Wilson who I think looks good may give us a better chance at that route. We don't seem to have an obvious aim such as to get the ball out wide and fill the box or to slide passes in behind for midfield runners. Frankly a lot of the time it looks like the players don't quite know what the aim is either and that might be what slows some of our play down. We're basically reliant on the fact that Rose and Eisa are better than average players for this division.

Happy with the three points but I'm just a bit dejected overall after that. We won't be going down but we won't be troubling the play offs either in my opinion.

That is exactly my summation.

The players just don't know what they are trying to achieve. There HAS to be some game plan, in the sense of attacking intent, but we have got none, absolutely no intention of threatening the goal.

Pontoon fans have seen a grand total of 2 goals all season,  and you can count the times we have been in the box at that end on a metaphorical hand.

Quoted from Tommy

I think PH has started a couple of seasons in the past with wanting us to play more football, but abandoned it at the first sign of it not working and reverted to what he knows as the solid safe approach. I'd hope that after building a squad this summer with some transfer fees paid, to be a better team technically and playing better football, that we wouldn't do the same by the end of September this season.

Hurst said we was poor. If that was our gameplan executed, he wouldn't have said that, would he?

Do you think when the team win the ball back, Hurst says pass it to them so we can defend? That suggestion defies all logic. By all means, we defended well, but probably didn't do well with the ball when we got it and invited pressure onto ourselves.

However, on Saturday, we did well when we have the ball, but we defended poorly.

We needed a good defensive display, and I think the team can hopefully take confidence that we can see a lead out. We just need to combine the two and get more consistent. A platform to build on.

Oh, and everyone who keeps sayings that we were crap, could it not just be that Barrow are now a competent League 2 outfit, just shy of the play-offs and performed well? I get that Barrow used to be shite, but then again, Luton used to be non-league. Things change in football.

Think Hurst has tried to put a tight squad together to cover various formations and got a squad that can't master one style of play let alone three. Can we play a two in centre midfield without getting overrun so we can accomodate our wide players and two up top? Not sure we've got a partner for Conteh, or at least one that's in favour. Can we play three at the back? Not with Waterfall we can't, and if Efete plays right wing back as Mullarkey moves to the right of a three, PH doesn't trust either of our left footed full backs on the other side. And where does Eisa fit in to that formation? Same with a 4-4-2 diamond, which suits Khan much more tham Eisa at the tip. All a bit of a confused mess at the minute.  Rodgers and Maher centre backs, Conteh holding midfielder and Rose up top, rest of the outfield positions up for grabs.. in god knows what formation..

Well, footballs a weird game isn’t it?! Not sure why I actually like this sport at times 😂

Played better this season and not got owt, much the second best tonight but you take it.

The football has to improve but hoping a win that stops the poor run of results and holding out to not lose yet more points from a winning position can be a catalyst to kick on.

Great finish from Rose and a great ball in from Michee, for all the criticism of him from me he’s had two good solid games on the wrong side. Wilson is giving me Solskjaer vibes of late, must be tempting to start him Saturday.

For a time there it looked like it was only going to end one way, they had a ridiculous amount of pressure in the second half and a change was needed.

Hurst has drawn deserved criticism at times for in game management but thought he got it spot on tonight. Many screaming the change was negative but I though going for 3/5 at the back and matching them up, which also allowed us to get two up top probably meant we got three points from a game where it looked like 0 points was quite likely.

Really want to see Rose/Wilson start together Saturday. That brings problems with where you lose the other player from but reckon 442 might be the best shot and accept the consequences of having less in midfield for the forward threat.

Special mentions to Rodgers, Holohan and Andrews tonight who I thought were all excellent. I am getting alittle worried about Waterfall, great when we’re deep and compact and will always put everything on the line… but showing a few signs he’s struggling with a higher line and more possession. I’m not used to us looking so nervy defensively with him on the pitch, usually so assured.

Didn't watch the game but have to say football is a funny old game isn't it.
Saturday we go to Swindon and play some lovely football, control most of the game and lose 2 1. 3 days later we play at home and get totally dominate yet won 2 1.

I thought we looked poor especially in the second half but two really well executed goals with some poor defending from Barrow who looked apart from the two goals quite a strong side.

Quoted from AncientExiledMariner

Hurst said we was poor. If that was our gameplan executed, he wouldn't have said that, would he?

Do you think when the team win the ball back, Hurst says pass it to them so we can defend? That suggestion defies all logic. By all means, we defended well, but probably didn't do well with the ball when we got it and invited pressure onto ourselves.

However, on Saturday, we did well when we have the ball, but we defended poorly.

We needed a good defensive display, and I think the team can hopefully take confidence that we can see a lead out. We just need to combine the two and get more consistent. A platform to build on.

Oh, and everyone who keeps sayings that we were crap, could it not just be that Barrow are now a competent League 2 outfit, just shy of the play-offs and performed well? I get that Barrow used to be shite, but then again, Luton used to be non-league. Things change in football.

Agree about Barrow a very good side , maybe a touch behind Mansfield & Notts on what I have seen so far but not by much .

I think Tommy was referring more to the 'revert to type' of keeping us shape and inviting pressure , then holding out much like Hurst teams have done in the past ; whether deliberate or not time will tell in how we setup in coming games , Conteh really loses effectiveness though if we lack any ball retention with the game played through him .

We got away with one  , but now is  a big opportunity - only Stockport in the next 12 who I would expect defeat against - really need  to capitalise now against so called weaker teams , starting with Tranmere on Saturday .

Feels wrong to moan about 3 points and playing badly when we’ve so often done okay and drawn/lost this season. I’ll take it as a one off but I don’t fancy watching that every week.

It felt like our ‘game plan’ first half was to get crosses into the box more often and unfortunately every single delivery was absolutely shite. You could even argue the cross for the goal wasn’t great, it was just dealt with terribly by Barrows defender & keeper. Barrow actually had an identity and moved the ball well, however, it’s not them sat with 3 points this morning.

Andrews & Rodgers very good for me. I’ve seen a lot of praise for Holohan, he won the ball a lot but I think his distribution was poor by his standards, funny how differently people see it!

And in Wilson, we have the reason we need a goalscorer. Without his clinical finish we’re looking at a point last night, but one clinical finish from nothing makes all the difference. If he can do that over 90 mins we may have solved a huge problem.

Not the best, but sometimes you need a night like last night to go on a run.

The whole ‘reverting to type’ was almost a certainty once we went 1 up. When you’ve lost three on the spin you naturally get nervous and protect what you have. Literally every team does it, so anyone surprised probably doesn’t watch much football. Similarly when Barrow slung the ball into the box right that th death when their keeper came out.

Our lad catches it and lays on it and people were screaming for him to kick it long…why? He had hold of the ball and there were no more than 30’sexonds left. Kicking it, keeper or not would’ve put us under pressure given we had nobody forward.

We got a win and probably didn’t play half as good as we did on Saturday. That said, we were clinical and for all the moaning about strikers, both had one chance each and took them…pretty clinical that. Barrow moved the ball well and you can see why they win games but for all their huff and puff, they didn’t take chances and, like us in many a game, it’s cost them.

When you’ve been on a bad run, sometimes the win is needed more than any type of performance.

Quoted from aldi_01

The whole ‘reverting to type’ was almost a certainty once we went 1 up. When you’ve lost three on the spin you naturally get nervous and protect what you have. Literally every team does it, so anyone surprised probably doesn’t watch much football. Similarly when Barrow slung the ball into the box right that th death when their keeper came out.

Our lad catches it and lays on it and people were screaming for him to kick it long…why? He had hold of the ball and there were no more than 30’sexonds left. Kicking it, keeper or not would’ve put us under pressure given we had nobody forward.

We got a win and probably didn’t play half as good as we did on Saturday. That said, we were clinical and for all the moaning about strikers, both had one chance each and took them…pretty clinical that. Barrow moved the ball well and you can see why they win games but for all their huff and puff, they didn’t take chances and, like us in many a game, it’s cost them.

When you’ve been on a bad run, sometimes the win is needed more than any type of performance.

It was a much needed three points but, having had chance to sleep on it, we were pretty dreadful last night.

It looks like we’ve signed some very good players in their positions but they seem unable to gel as a team. Our ball retention is woeful and we just invited pressure hence the need to go to five at the back.

I’m not sure what we’re trying to achieve and I expect us to finish quite a bit lower than Barrow this season as we seem to be, as in previous seasons, getting worse not better.

Everything has been said so I’ll not go over old ground, but a similar theme that hasn’t been mentioned on this thread rears it’s ugly head again; Pyke - my god, he’s lazy. Having him on for just a few moments increased pressure on the whole team. Bringing him to the club and letting Orsi go was not Hurst’s best move, and it irks me intensely.

But thank christ for the 3 points.

Quoted from aldi_01

The whole ‘reverting to type’ was almost a certainty once we went 1 up. When you’ve lost three on the spin you naturally get nervous and protect what you have. Literally every team does it, so anyone surprised probably doesn’t watch much football. Similarly when Barrow slung the ball into the box right that th death when their keeper came out.

Our lad catches it and lays on it and people were screaming for him to kick it long…why? He had hold of the ball and there were no more than 30’sexonds left. Kicking it, keeper or not would’ve put us under pressure given we had nobody forward.

We got a win and probably didn’t play half as good as we did on Saturday. That said, we were clinical and for all the moaning about strikers, both had one chance each and took them…pretty clinical that. Barrow moved the ball well and you can see why they win games but for all their huff and puff, they didn’t take chances and, like us in many a game, it’s cost them.

When you’ve been on a bad run, sometimes the win is needed more than any type of performance.

Yeah you take it don't you - we really need about 20 points + from this next 12 games , otherwise we will be looking at half a season (barring a miracle) with not much to play for .

Seemingly Hurst has made his mind up on Amos & Glennon so that's at least 2 going who need replacing , I feel already once again there will be a massive turnover of players in January and the summer .

Quoted from Mappers

Yeah you take it don't you - we really need about 20 points + from this next 12 games , otherwise we will be looking at half a season (barring a miracle) with not much to play for .

Seemingly Hurst has made his mind up on Amos & Glennon so that's at least 2 going who need replacing , I feel already once again there will be a massive turnover of players in January and the summer .

I’m trying to work out what Amos has done wrong, personally.

Just seen the goals, theirs is an absolute carbon copy of the one from Saturday. Rogers tied up with their striker comes out to challenge for the ball, both CBs end up so close together you could chuck a tablecloth over the pair, ball into the space behind and it’s a simple goal.

Waterfall needs to be more switched on if Rogers is going to be the defender attacking the ball, and if Conteh isn’t on the pitch whoever’s in his role needs to work harder to stop the ball coming straight back through the middle if Rogers doesn’t win it.

Quoted from Heisenberg

I’m trying to work out what Amos has done wrong, personally.

So am I. Playing a right back, and a not very good right back at that, as left back isn’t a great advert for our two specialist left backs.

Quoted from Heisenberg

I’m trying to work out what Amos has done wrong, personally.

Nothing much

He's relatively solid isn't he , you would think Hurst would love him - basically the playing equivalent of him as a manager .

Awful game from a Town point of view but 3 points .First half Gav looked ill or just miles off the pace and those who wanted Clifton dropped saw the result a midfield with zero energy as we got repeatedly over ran. Mularkey seemed to be targeted and Barrows number 11 looked the best player on the park.Eisa won a penalty with the first Town attack at speed not hindsight bit why didn't Gav take it? Second speedy attack Rose scored and somehow we led 1-0 at HT. Second half a Town team that had a difficult 45 mins got another mauling a second goal against the run of play should have settled us down but didn't. Like many others I don't know what I'm watching or why and it's boring at best.700 sth voted with there feet and many of the poor crowd in attendance left feeling once again short changed of entertainment. A good start would be to play two up front and stop putting square pegs in roundhouse.Special mention to Efete and Eastwood who have both had stick both fairly solid here.UTM

For me that was by far and away our worst performance of the season and I almost feel sorry for Barrow that they're going home with nothing.

I thought Barrow were a good side, but I can't help but think we played a big part in making them look very good, especially in the second half.

The first was a fairly even affair though I'd say Barrow attacked with more pace, guile and fluidity but didn't (to my recollection) create anything that really tested us. We probed slowly again and although in other games I've seen how we're trying to play and it's not been completely frustrating, we seemed to really test patience in the stands. I don't have an issue playing backwards if there's nothing forwards, but we'd drive 20 yards, pass back 10 but no-one would continue forward runs to provide the forward momentum.

Individually, given everything seen so far, I think Conten and Holohan are the first two midfielders on the team sheet and I liked Andrews last night too, but they didn't seem to really gel as a trio. Whether this changes over time is something we'll have to see but as individuals they're the best ones for me so far.

The second half was just an onslaught from Barrow and how Eastwood made two or three of those saves is beyond me. I'm certain he didn't even know about one of them and was just stood in the right place and thank God he was. What was so frustrating about this period of the game is the fact we just kept gifting them the ball. I was praying for goal kicks so we could settle and get a foot on the ball but we were determined to simply give it back to them and continue to chase.

I thought bringing on Maher for Eisa was a bad move and I expected them to ramp up the pressure even more but the move did pay off a bit as we took a bit of their sting away without actually bringing the game into our control, still gifting them possession far too easily. The further changes made help keep us energised and were good subs, especially when you consider that Wilson has gone and done it again after coming off the bench to give us a goal against the run of play.

It's possibly our best win of the season in the context that we certainly didn't deserve to on the balance of play. If this had been our level of performance all season and our league position being what it is then I'd be much more concerned because last night was a poor performance in my opinion.

Honourable mentions to Eastwood for some fantastic saves to keep us in the game, Holohan for 4 or 5 tackles in their half, robbing the opposition of the ball, Andrews for a tidy display and Wilson purely for his impact again.

Great win, underpar performance, hoping we can continue with another three points on Saturday but with a return to a better level of performance.

Could someone please explain the rules concerning restart after a head injury.
Against Crawley, their defender goes down in the area with a head injury. We win the ball before the ref stops the game. He restarts the game with a drop ball to Crawley in the area.
Last night, Efete goes down with a head injury in the area, ref stops the game when they had possession. Ref restarts the game with a drop ball to Barrow.
What's the difference, and which one is right???

Quoted from gtfc_chris

For me that was by far and away our worst performance of the season and I almost feel sorry for Barrow that they're going home with nothing.

I thought Barrow were a good side, but I can't help but think we played a big part in making them look very good, especially in the second half.

The first was a fairly even affair though I'd say Barrow attacked with more pace, guile and fluidity but didn't (to my recollection) create anything that really tested us. We probed slowly again and although in other games I've seen how we're trying to play and it's not been completely frustrating, we seemed to really test patience in the stands. I don't have an issue playing backwards if there's nothing forwards, but we'd drive 20 yards, pass back 10 but no-one would continue forward runs to provide the forward momentum.

Individually, given everything seen so far, I think Conten and Holohan are the first two midfielders on the team sheet and I liked Andrews last night too, but they didn't seem to really gel as a trio. Whether this changes over time is something we'll have to see but as individuals they're the best ones for me so far.

The second half was just an onslaught from Barrow and how Eastwood made two or three of those saves is beyond me. I'm certain he didn't even know about one of them and was just stood in the right place and thank God he was. What was so frustrating about this period of the game is the fact we just kept gifting them the ball. I was praying for goal kicks so we could settle and get a foot on the ball but we were determined to simply give it back to them and continue to chase.

I thought bringing on Maher for Eisa was a bad move and I expected them to ramp up the pressure even more but the move did pay off a bit as we took a bit of their sting away without actually bringing the game into our control, still gifting them possession far too easily. The further changes made help keep us energised and were good subs, especially when you consider that Wilson has gone and done it again after coming off the bench to give us a goal against the run of play.

It's possibly our best win of the season in the context that we certainly didn't deserve to on the balance of play. If this had been our level of performance all season and our league position being what it is then I'd be much more concerned because last night was a poor performance in my opinion.

Honourable mentions to Eastwood for some fantastic saves to keep us in the game, Holohan for 4 or 5 tackles in their half, robbing the opposition of the ball, Andrews for a tidy display and Wilson purely for his impact again.

Great win, underpar performance, hoping we can continue with another three points on Saturday but with a return to a better level of performance.

Eastwood was MOTM hands down for me

Thought he was excellent , got us the win really - couple of great saves 2nd half ; even if that one just hit him it does not matter he was there .

He might have had a couple of shaky moments this season, but on the whole I think he's been pretty good - I like him as a keeper actually ; maybe the difference between him and Crocombe is minimal but they are very different keepers .

Well how we got 3 points from that I don't know, but we did, hopefully a confidence booster, but we do need to improve as we look a miss mash, no actual style, it just seems to be strangers playing football and they don't know what to do, we've had this feeling about Hurst teams before, I can't believe he wants this style so is it the fact that himself and the coaching team aren't very good at drilling a style of play into them? Because Barrow looked everything what we wasn't (that is not a criticism, just an observation) as for Wilson, he looks to offer us something we don't have, he looks sharp on the turn and seems to be our most natural finisher perhaps who is comfortable when 1v1, if we can use him correctly and give him some of those chances again then hopefully he does well

If I was Hurst I would be ashamed sending out a league team who performed like that.

The result has somewhat saved him from a barage of criticism but anybody looking at that game would be scratching their heads as to how the manager and coaching team have sent out a side, of potentially better players, so under equipped and lacking in any form of plan.

As an irritated Barrow fan said last night we are the worst league team he has seen in a very long time.

A lot of our lads look like they are running in treacle, and it really is painful to watch.

If I was the owners I would be wanting an explanation as to why we are providing zero excitement and playing like that.

The rallying cry of " make some noise for the boys " is met with a funereal Blundell Park atmosphere. It is the team that needs waking up.

I would give it to Christmas but if there is no discernable uptick in approach, performances and league placings I would make a change. Otherwise what will happen is another load of players will be signed in January but they will soon end up playing the same boring way.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

If I was Hurst I would be ashamed sending out a league team who performed like that.

The result has somewhat saved him from a barage of criticism but anybody looking at that game would be scratching their heads as to how the manager and coaching team have sent out a side, of potentially better players, so under equipped and lacking in any form of plan.

As an irritated Barrow fan said last night we are the worst league team he has seen in a very long time.

A lot of our lads look like they are running in treacle, and it really is painful to watch.

If I was the owners I would be wanting an explanation as to why we are providing zero excitement and playing like that.

The rallying cry of " make some noise for the boys " is met with a funereal Blundell Park atmosphere. It is the team that needs waking up.

I would give it to Christmas but if there is no discernable uptick in approach, performances and league placings I would make a change. Otherwise what will happen is another load of players will be signed in January but they will soon end up playing the same boring way.

Totally agree. Players look burned out already and our lack of creativity is quite shocking. Hurst looked like he’d got out of jail after the game last night. We lacked energy which is a trademark of a Hurst team and we looked massively disjointed, dare I say a squad full of individual talent but devoid of leadership and cohesion.

Quoted from aldi_01

Our lad catches it and lays on it and people were screaming for him to kick it long…why? He had hold of the ball and there were no more than 30’sexonds left. Kicking it, keeper or not would’ve put us under pressure given we had nobody forward.

And the problem is in the last sentence, we had nobody forward. Remember the Max Wright goal against Wrexham? They pile forward in the closing minute and we score because we leave our quickest player up to chase down and score off the break? I still can't get my head round why everybody needs to be defending.

As for the game itself, nervous is the word. Everywhere was nervous, from the crowd to the players. The atmosphere was as dower as I've known it at BP. You could hear a pindrop at somepoints.

Maybe the win today will be the turning point to move forward, but I can't help but feel we look like a very ordinary team with no identity.

Some really good analysis in this whole thread in my opinion. I know Clifton has had some criticism but thought he instantly gave them something to think about when he came on.  

Quoted from barralad

Some really good analysis in this whole thread in my opinion. I know Clifton has had some criticism but thought he instantly gave them something to think about when he came on.  

He did but, once again, our midfield seems to be about endeavour not creativity. Given the forwards we have signed, surely we need some quality?

That was pig ugly, but it's 3 points.  

Lot of good points raised above.  

Didn't like the fact we went with an extra defender.  I can see Hurst's thinking but it just ultimately leads to more pressure.  I think all in bringing Maher onto the pitch made us stronger across that back 5 but at the same time more panicked, as with when we went to a back 5 at Wrexham there seems a lack of ownership, accountability and understanding of who is doing what.    The change did give us more of an outlet with two up top but nothing to support them.  Wilson though definitely gives you the option of putting it into corners rather than hoping Rose can win the flick-on and then get on the end of it.

How isolated was Rose though?  I mean the gap was 30 yards at times.  No striker in the world is making much out of that.

Probably not a popular opinion but I thought Conteh was largely anonymous.  My mate said during the game that in that role there's perhaps an argument that you don't want him to noticed and rather just go about his business quietly, which is a fair point but as one of our better players I want him to be putting his stamp on the game.  Derek Niven, James Hunt and Stacy Coldicott are those type of unsung heroes who anchor the midfield.  I expect Conteh to be dominating and dictating play.  His anonymity was only heightened by the booking where he becomes terrified of putting a foot in.

Don't want to go in on anyone but the point about Pyke and laziness is sadly one I'm nodding to.  I thought he looked incredibly lethargic when he came on and on multiple occasions he was watching play from 10 yards away without making a move towards it.  He needs to do more.

Not seen it back but never a penalty, arguably a bit of justice for Barrow that it was such a urine poor one.  Not sure why Holohan wasn't on it but we got away with it.

Delighted to get the win but we won't be able to play that poorly and pick up points very often.

Just to add, the crowd was so flat last night.  Can't remember the last time it was like that.

Not a criticism either because they got nothing back in return to get them going.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

That is exactly my summation.

The players just don't know what they are trying to achieve. There HAS to be some game plan, in the sense of attacking intent, but we have got none, absolutely no intention of threatening the goal.

Pontoon fans have seen a grand total of 2 goals all season,  and you can count the times we have been in the box at that end on a metaphorical hand.

Really!  I seem to remember us scoring twice last night!

Quoted from 123614

Really!  I seem to remember us scoring twice last night!

Can't you ever see the bigger picture?

Quoted from Mikey_345

Well, footballs a weird game isn’t it?! Not sure why I actually like this sport at times 😂

Played better this season and not got owt, much the second best tonight but you take it.

The football has to improve but hoping a win that stops the poor run of results and holding out to not lose yet more points from a winning position can be a catalyst to kick on.

Great finish from Rose and a great ball in from Michee, for all the criticism of him from me he’s had two good solid games on the wrong side. Wilson is giving me Solskjaer vibes of late, must be tempting to start him Saturday.

For a time there it looked like it was only going to end one way, they had a ridiculous amount of pressure in the second half and a change was needed.

Hurst has drawn deserved criticism at times for in game management but thought he got it spot on tonight. Many screaming the change was negative but I though going for 3/5 at the back and matching them up, which also allowed us to get two up top probably meant we got three points from a game where it looked like 0 points was quite likely.

Really want to see Rose/Wilson start together Saturday. That brings problems with where you lose the other player from but reckon 442 might be the best shot and accept the consequences of having less in midfield for the forward threat.

Special mentions to Rodgers, Holohan and Andrews tonight who I thought were all excellent. I am getting alittle worried about Waterfall, great when we’re deep and compact and will always put everything on the line… but showing a few signs he’s struggling with a higher line and more possession. I’m not used to us looking so nervy defensively with him on the pitch, usually so assured.

Agree mikey - those were my stand out players, although Andrews got better the longer the game went on, Mullarkey impressed me again, n Michee had another decent, solid game filling in at left back.
On the Wilson / Rose up front , noticeable that when he came on at Swindon he was playing wideish on the RHS, almost half up front n half midfield. Course you do then have the problem as to who to leave out...

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Can't you ever see the bigger picture?

When someone posts something that is obviously not true, then I will let them know.

Quoted from Heisenberg

I’m trying to work out what Amos has done wrong, personally.

because he's not as athletic or strong as michee, and not as good a defender imho (witness Swindon away last season) He's a good div 5 player, but not good enough if we are aiming to be a top div 4 team

ps for all this stuff about Buckley and playing styles etc. I vividly remember on a number of occasions when we were on a bad run Sir Alan would shut up shop, grind out a 0-0 and build from there

pps re Wilso could we play 3-5-2 Mullarkey, Rodgers & Maher as back 3 - clifton & efete as wing backs along with Conteh, Holohan/Andrews & Eisa with Wilson & Rose up top?

Quoted from forza ivano

On the Wilson / Rose up front , noticeable that when he came on at Swindon he was playing wideish on the RHS, almost half up front n half midfield. Course you do then have the problem as to who to leave out...

Wilson and Eisa either side of Rose?  Don't think Khan would have done a lot wrong to drop out but then I don't think he's done a lot to justify his place either.  Whereas the aforementioned 3 have.  

Keeps the option of that 3-man midfield that we seem to need to avoid getting overrun.  My only concern with it would be that it's too easy for it becoming a 4-5-1 with very limited support for the lone striker.

I do think we have improved in quality of individual players .

But in the pre match Hurst talked a bit about formations , and touched on how going 4-4-2 would mean we could not get our wingers in the team , or something along those lines and then went on to talk about 3-5-2 .

Wanting flexibility is fine ,but at this level teams who have a consistent formation and starting lineup tend to do better - it's not Man City -- it's weird because Hurst used to be very consistent as a manager and every player would know their job to a man and his formation rarely changed .

It would be interesting to know what's triggered his change in thinking over the last year .

It dawned on me there he definitely does not know our best formation , and it seems like we have brought in better players but they were not brought 'to fit ' into a pre planned system of playing ,or if they were that has drastically changed through injuries ,form and suspensions .

He really  needs  to settle on a way of playing again  or we will continue to be inconsistent in the main with this mish mash of performances.

Wouldn't object to that wingback system, forza.  

I don't think either Clifton or Efete are best used as wingbacks but it's about avoiding getting overrun down the flanks and offering an overload in the middle, without sacrificing any support for the striker.  Eisa was pretty ineffective in that No 10 role earlier in the season though, I think he's someone who needs to be cutting inside.

Quoted from Mappers

I do think we have improved in quality of individual players .

But in the pre match Hurst talked a bit about formations , and touched on how going 4-4-2 would mean we could not get our wingers in the team , or something along those lines and then went on to talk about 3-5-2 .

Wanting flexibility is fine ,but at this level teams who have a consistent formation and starting lineup tend to do better - it's not Man City -- it's weird because Hurst used to be very consistent as a manager and every player would know their job to a man and his formation rarely changed .

It would be interesting to know what's triggered his change in thinking .

It dawned on me there he definitely does not know our best formation , and it seems like we have brought in better players but they were not brought 'to fit ' into a pre planned system of playing ,or if they were that has drastically changed through injuries ,form and suspensions .

He really  needs  to settle on a way of playing again  or we will continue to be inconsistent in the main with this mish mash of performances.

As many others have said on this thread, I think the issue stems from the fact we've (perhaps and hopefully on a temporary basis) abandoned what we set out to do in the summer.

The signings and the pre-season approach, even in the early games too, was focused around possession based football at high tempo, lots of neat and quick passing with a quick turnover of possession of teams in front of their own goal.

That's great and by having two centre-backs who can pass it, a holding midifelder who can draw players in and disrupt opposition tactics, central midfielders who are pressing high and hard, wingers who cut inside to give further overload, fullbacks who overlap and then a central striker who chases everything down it looked to be an ideal situation.

But since then we've had injuries and form disrupting a lot of that.  I'm not sure the replacements offer the same ability to suit that system.  Can Waterfall play it out like Maher?  Can Khan run at teams in the same way we expected to Vernam to?  Our fullbacks have gone very quickly from marauding to rigid.

I don't know what our approach was last night other than grind it out.  I don't think it matters what tactics we started with last night, it was always going to revert back to 2 deep lines be it a 4-and-5 or a 5-and-4 with Rose completely isolated with no-one remotely close to him.   That just invites team to press us and any clearances were just that, they weren't turning over play it was just getting rid of the ball into a bit of space and getting ready to defend again.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Wouldn't object to that wingback system, forza.  

I don't think either Clifton or Efete are best used as wingbacks but it's about avoiding getting overrun down the flanks and offering an overload in the middle, without sacrificing any support for the striker.  Eisa was pretty ineffective in that No 10 role earlier in the season though, I think he's someone who needs to be cutting inside.

personally I've thought some of Clifton's best performances were when he was left midfield & Efete always looks much happier going forward.
Great time to try it with Khan being away for a couple of matches

Great to come away with the 3 points, plenty of games this season we haven't got the result we deserved and tonight was the opposite, so i'll take that all day long.

Plenty of talk about formations, style of play etc - my gut feeling is Barrow isn't the team to judge that against, was incredibly impressed with how they set up, very compact with a back 5 and 3 protecting them which didn't leave any room infront or behind of them to play - I think both times we got in behind, we scored.

Equally going forward, they didn't half spring into life from there defensive shape - fair play to them, I thought they looked a good side and can see why they haven't conceded many.

UTM

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

If I was Hurst I would be ashamed sending out a league team who performed like that.

The result has somewhat saved him from a barage of criticism…

Has it? The manager and team have been absolutely hammered across every platform since the team was announced at 6:45pm last night.

Quoted from forza ivano

personally I've thought some of Clifton's best performances were when he was left midfield & Efete always looks much happier going forward.
Great time to try it with Khan being away for a couple of matches

Agree on Clifton. Efete is an odd one because he looks, to me anyway, good going forward with loads of space to run into, i.e. from deep.  But when he gets or starts further forward he looks lost.  Would have to accept that if he was used as a wingback, probably not going to be putting crosses into the box.

Forgot about Khan on international duty.  

Quoted from diehardmariner

Don't want to go in on anyone but the point about Pyke and laziness is sadly one I'm nodding to.  I thought he looked incredibly lethargic when he came on and on multiple occasions he was watching play from 10 yards away without making a move towards it.  He needs to do more.
.

Offers absolutely nothing when he comes on. Wasn't even closing down or harrying them particularly. I really think Hurst has dropped a clanger if we've only got three strikers and Pyke is one of them. I get that we've been slightly unfortunate with the injury to Wilson, who I'm impressed by, but it's so frustrating that our squad is let down so much by the lack of striking options.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Wouldn't object to that wingback system, forza.  

I don't think either Clifton or Efete are best used as wingbacks but it's about avoiding getting overrun down the flanks and offering an overload in the middle, without sacrificing any support for the striker.  Eisa was pretty ineffective in that No 10 role earlier in the season though, I think he's someone who needs to be cutting inside.

Trying to create overloads in the middle will undoubtedly make us easier to defend and more susceptible to counter attacks.

Principles of defending is to get compact and then look to delay, deflect and deny. Delay an attack, slow it down so the team can get reorganised. Deflect the play, look to push players away from goal, run them into the wide areas. Deny the opposition, be that crosses, shots or simply getting tackles in to gain possession.

If we try to overload the middle we're adding more players into a congested area which limits space and increases our margin for error. It also means that the space is wide and that's where we'll have to push the ball. Not a bad scenario if we were good at getting bodies into the box and our deliveries were good, which I'd argue they're not the best quality of teams we've seen so far.

I'd work the opposite. Try to create overloads in the wide areas that pulls central opposition players across creating gaps in the middle that we look to exploit in the final third.

The problem for us with either scenario is that pace invariably increases your ability to exploit what you create. When we probe slowly we allow the opposition to regroup meaning any spaces we've opened up are suitably plugged by the opposition. A slow and patient approach is based on the idea that eventually the opposition will step in to win the ball and you seize that initiative but it requires a lot of awareness both on and off the ball and I think a sizeable issue is our off-the-ball work hasn't been inventive or creative enough to aid the player on the ball. Hence our performances have been impressive in the sense of how we're retaining the ball and moving it, but in terms of frequency of flowing moves it's lacking as a result. Just a view.

In defence of Efete's defending capabilities. He's been played on the wrong side for the past two matches and has been more solid than Mullarkey. Swindon and Barrow were more dangerous attacking our right side. I like Mullarkey as a player btw, but feel Michee gets written off far too often. Still think we miss his presence, energy, pace and power down the right as well as his capability of arriving in the box..

And if we're going to play two up top, I think we need Hunt's passing range too.

Both highly contentious opinions on here. But look where we are without either..

Quoted from Bigdog

In defence of Efete's defending capabilities. He's been played on the wrong side for the past two matches and has been more solid than Mullarkey. Swindon and Barrow were more dangerous attacking our right side. I like Mullarkey as a player btw, but feel Michee gets written off far too often. Still think we miss his presence, energy, pace and power down the right as well as his capability of arriving in the box..

And if we're going to play two up top, I think we need Hunt's passing range too.

Both highly contentious opinions on here. But look where we are without either..

Couldn’t agree more. Watching our most gifted midfielder running up and down the pitch in the pre pre match running was quite depressing. How is he going to get confident if he’s given 70 minutes once in a blue moon.

Been hesitant  to put my views as I've been a little puzzled to see Holohan and Andrews get bad press early in this thread but for me Holohan put in a shift and was mcu better and busier than of late. As with other areas of the pitch he had too much to do as Conteh seemed way off the pace. Andrews was very good, the only player who attempted to get the ball and turn and twist to get in a forward playing position.

Also waited for the highlights to sum up my view that this team play with no urgency. Why were no Town players following up on the left side for the pen? How come their defender was off like a hare and managed to even beat Eisa to the rebound with a toe poke?
Far too often the ball gets played back to our defender who then takes a touch, looks up and carefully puts in a measured poor cross straight to the shins of a defender, yet Efete put in the cross of the night for the goal, a somewhat hurried but superbly angled instinctive cross that will always cause problems.

It's frustrating as hell, we seem to get a glimpse of the answers we require in every game but quickly revert to a flat and pace-less pattern. A manager obsessed with keeping shape has to address that oppositions run through the middle which all of our opponents are now picking upon.
So glad of the 3 points but so fed up with the mounting questions that pile up in the match inquest

It's old ground now the Hunt debate, but he just doesn't seem to be imposing himself on games. Hunt has started more games than Andrews, but can anyone honestly say he's been as good??

Andrews was really good last night, i know he's not our player, but doesn't mean he cant be in the future..

Quoted from gtfc_chris

Trying to create overloads in the middle will undoubtedly make us easier to defend and more susceptible to counter attacks.

Principles of defending is to get compact and then look to delay, deflect and deny. Delay an attack, slow it down so the team can get reorganised. Deflect the play, look to push players away from goal, run them into the wide areas. Deny the opposition, be that crosses, shots or simply getting tackles in to gain possession.

If we try to overload the middle we're adding more players into a congested area which limits space and increases our margin for error. It also means that the space is wide and that's where we'll have to push the ball. Not a bad scenario if we were good at getting bodies into the box and our deliveries were good, which I'd argue they're not the best quality of teams we've seen so far.

I'd work the opposite. Try to create overloads in the wide areas that pulls central opposition players across creating gaps in the middle that we look to exploit in the final third.

The problem for us with either scenario is that pace invariably increases your ability to exploit what you create. When we probe slowly we allow the opposition to regroup meaning any spaces we've opened up are suitably plugged by the opposition. A slow and patient approach is based on the idea that eventually the opposition will step in to win the ball and you seize that initiative but it requires a lot of awareness both on and off the ball and I think a sizeable issue is our off-the-ball work hasn't been inventive or creative enough to aid the player on the ball. Hence our performances have been impressive in the sense of how we're retaining the ball and moving it, but in terms of frequency of flowing moves it's lacking as a result. Just a view.

That's it really. When we play "well" we create very few clear cut chances but it doesn't look too bad because we keep the ball, but it goes nowhere, is far too slow and usually fizzles out before we ever get near the box.*

*For the pedants on here of course we create some chances, sometimes get near the box and even inside it but you only have to see how Barrow played last night (yes they lost) to see we are miles behind.

Quoted from sam gy

It's old ground now the Hunt debate, but he just doesn't seem to be imposing himself on games. Hunt has started more games than Andrews, but can anyone honestly say he's been as good??

Andrews was really good last night, i know he's not our player, but doesn't mean he cant be in the future..

Andrews showed a glimpse of being ok, but there's no doubt our midfield three got steamrollered by Barrow last night. Hunt's only played three games this season, hard to impose himself on games from the bench or the stand. PH couldn't have damaged his confidence any more if he'd tried. Again, our performances and results without him haven't warranted that kind of treatment. It may not be the safest option, but a midfield containing both Conteh and Hunt has the highest ceiling of performance imho. Hunt needs a proper run of games, and his manager's backing..

Quoted from sam gy

It's old ground now the Hunt debate, but he just doesn't seem to be imposing himself on games. Hunt has started more games than Andrews, but can anyone honestly say he's been as good??

Andrews was really good last night, i know he's not our player, but doesn't mean he cant be in the future..

Just a thought about Hunt, not really a defence of him but maybe a reason.....

It's difficult for him to do what he's good at in a midfield that is being overrun and he's being constantly asked to do defensive work.

I wasn't there last night but I was at Swindon. He ran around like a chicken with no head and was always trying to get involved. But he's not a tackler and the defensive side of his game is not great. I initially thought 'he's a liability and we should get rid of him' but as the game went on I began to think that he's never going to thrive in a midfield set up like ours.

If we want to see the best from Hunt I think the rest of the midfield needs to play flat and Hunt can sit between them and the forward(s), or we play a diamond with Conteh at the defensive point and Hunt at the forward point.

I've always envisaged our best midfield as that diamond type to be honest.

It's simple but it's about putting the players with the best attributes in those positions where they're most effective.

If we want someone to shield the defence and kickstart everything in a composed manner, it's Conteh with the attribute.
If we want someone/people to run the legs off teams and win lose bits of possession, it's Clifton and Holohan with the attributes.
If we want someone who can create and is technically able to unlock teams, it's Hunt who has that.

Hunt is and has been asked to do either that shielding role or the terrier type role.  It's not his game. No more so than Clifton or Holohan are the creative type who can pick passes.

But we always seem to be very similar in midfield and if I'm honest I struggle to see how we can play a 4-4-2 type system without going very similar in there.  Hunt doesn't work in a 2, not sure Conteh would either (although I'm keen to see if he can step forward a bit) so that really leaves Holohan and Clifton which is as near like-for-like as you can get.

Andrews adds another dynamic.  Not sure where he would sit in that or, based on a single start, what his best position would be.

A diamond midfield does mean you lose width though, unless you go with a lone striker (which brings its own problems).

Quoted from gtfc_chris

Trying to create overloads in the middle will undoubtedly make us easier to defend and more susceptible to counter attacks.

Principles of defending is to get compact and then look to delay, deflect and deny. Delay an attack, slow it down so the team can get reorganised. Deflect the play, look to push players away from goal, run them into the wide areas. Deny the opposition, be that crosses, shots or simply getting tackles in to gain possession.

If we try to overload the middle we're adding more players into a congested area which limits space and increases our margin for error. It also means that the space is wide and that's where we'll have to push the ball. Not a bad scenario if we were good at getting bodies into the box and our deliveries were good, which I'd argue they're not the best quality of teams we've seen so far.

I'd work the opposite. Try to create overloads in the wide areas that pulls central opposition players across creating gaps in the middle that we look to exploit in the final third.

The problem for us with either scenario is that pace invariably increases your ability to exploit what you create. When we probe slowly we allow the opposition to regroup meaning any spaces we've opened up are suitably plugged by the opposition. A slow and patient approach is based on the idea that eventually the opposition will step in to win the ball and you seize that initiative but it requires a lot of awareness both on and off the ball and I think a sizeable issue is our off-the-ball work hasn't been inventive or creative enough to aid the player on the ball. Hence our performances have been impressive in the sense of how we're retaining the ball and moving it, but in terms of frequency of flowing moves it's lacking as a result. Just a view.

Really good insight, Chris.  I'm not a huge fan of overloads in the middle all the time, as you've pointed out, it exposes you in other areas.  I think Hurst likes it though and is in a lot of his thinking when he looks at how to set-up.  As you've highlighted, overloading from wide (especially if you can switch play quickly) can be very effective but it needs pace to do so.  We don't have any.  Even last night we had occasions of switching play from one side to the other and back very, very quickly.  But we had no pace to attack the created space.  Early on in the season I did think we would do so with our fullbacks on the overlap but they're definitely sitting a bit deeper at the minute.

At this level pace is king.  Wilson aside we've got none.

Quoted from ska face

Has it? The manager and team have been absolutely hammered across every platform since the team was announced at 6:45pm last night.

And quite rightly so but it would be much, much worse had we lost.

The criticism will grow louder unless we get any set pattern to our play and provide even the merest hint of excitement. A crowd of under 5k with absolutely nothing to get enthused about is the reality starting to kick in, that reality being people  fed up of seeing the team looking like they've just met.

I think the issue for me is mainly that Hurst has his heart set on this 4-1-4-1 formation, but we don't really seems to have signed the players capable of playing in it. Notably, we're very one-paced throughout the team. Other than a good burst of pace by Eisa early on last night, I don't remember any of our players ever running away from their team. In comparison, they had a few players who we struggled to keep up with. With two quick wide players and more pace at full-back, it might work out better, but we don't have that.

For what it's worth, I understand why Efete was played at left-back last night. Their No. 21 was both quick and pretty strong in the air and Efete is our quickest defender who is also decent aerially. I'm not convinced that Glennon (too slow) or Amos (not great in the air) would have coped with him. I hate to see right-sided defenders on the left unless absolutely necessary, but I can understand it last night.

That said, it doesn't speak well of either of the left-backs that they aren't currently trusted to do their jobs. I'd have Amos in myself, although I'd also be looking for somebody else in January as Glennon has been so disappointing.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Really good insight, Chris.  I'm not a huge fan of overloads in the middle all the time, as you've pointed out, it exposes you in other areas.  I think Hurst likes it though and is in a lot of his thinking when he looks at how to set-up.  As you've highlighted, overloading from wide (especially if you can switch play quickly) can be very effective but it needs pace to do so.  We don't have any.  Even last night we had occasions of switching play from one side to the other and back very, very quickly.  But we had no pace to attack the created space.  Early on in the season I did think we would do so with our fullbacks on the overlap but they're definitely sitting a bit deeper at the minute.

At this level pace is king.  Wilson aside we've got none.

I'll add to your point about having no pace to attack the created space...playing one up all the time adds to this because there's no bodies already up there or holding the ball up.

I really struggle to see why we play Rose on his own when we're asking him to compete in the air but there's nobody to get on to the flicks and touches he does get. We're giving the ball back to their defence.

At Swindon we looked a completely different team when PH brought 3 on and we basically went 433 - we caused Swindon all sorts of problems. They looked panicked by us.

Quoted from Maringer

I think the issue for me is mainly that Hurst has his heart set on this 4-1-4-1 formation, but we don't really seems to have signed the players capable of playing in it. Notably, we're very one-paced throughout the team. Other than a good burst of pace by Eisa early on last night, I don't remember any of our players ever running away from their team. In comparison, they had a few players who we struggled to keep up with. With two quick wide players and more pace at full-back, it might work out better, but we don't have that.

For what it's worth, I understand why Efete was played at left-back last night. Their No. 21 was both quick and pretty strong in the air and Efete is our quickest defender who is also decent aerially. I'm not convinced that Glennon (too slow) or Amos (not great in the air) would have coped with him. I hate to see right-sided defenders on the left unless absolutely necessary, but I can understand it last night.

That said, it doesn't speak well of either of the left-backs that they aren't currently trusted to do their jobs. I'd have Amos in myself, although I'd also be looking for somebody else in January as Glennon has been so disappointing.

All good points but I'm not sure PH is as tied to 4141 as you suggest. But...

All good managers will tell you that you buy players to play your system or you play a system that suits the players you've got. we don't seem to do either at the moment.

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

I really struggle to see why we play Rose on his own when we're asking him to compete in the air but there's nobody to get on to the flicks and touches he does get. We're giving the ball back to their defence.

For a while he was our only fit striker, then by the time Pyke was fit enough to start, Rose got inured, and Wilson has been out for a long time. I'm sure we will start to see two up top incorporated.

But as PH said in his interview...usually if you play two up top these days, you play wing backs, so where does our top scorer Eisa play? And if you go 442 you'll likely get overrun in midfield.

Who'd be a manager eh.

Quoted from sam gy

For a while he was our only fit striker, then by the time Pyke was fit enough to start, Rose got inured, and Wilson has been out for a long time. I'm sure we will start to see two up top incorporated.

But as PH said in his interview...usually if you play two up top these days, you play wing backs, so where does our top scorer Eisa play? And if you go 442 you'll likely get overrun in midfield.

Who'd be a manager eh.

Yep, all true but we have to get someone closer to Rose to get on to those flick ons whether it's one up front or 2.

I've seen enough from Wilson to think that him and Rose playing together could be a good partnership for exactly this reason.

Yeah, i'd love to see them play together - the rest can figure itself out, but having them both on the pitch at the same time massively improves our chances of scoring goals.

I think the issue is that we're just not that dangerous in any form. I like both of Wilson and Rose and really feel for Rose having spent a quarter of the season so isolated. He's shown that given good deliveries he will score but he just needs some help. Wilson looks very willing and actually has some pace which we're sorely missing. So perhaps two up front would give other teams a lot more to think about. You would then have the issue of having no depth at all because the less said about Pyke the better but I'd trust him about as  much as I trusted Junior Mendes to have a positive impact for us.

However, other than Conteh I don't think any of our other midfielders are good enough to play in a central two when they'll more often than not be outnumbered. They're either physically capable like Clifton and Holohan but severely lacking both on the ball and creatively or they're a bit better on the ball like Andrews and Hunt but would get very easily over run.

I personally think a lot of our problems stem from the centre of midfield and the full back positions. Our movement from the middle of the pitch is either non-existent or just poor. Very few times last night were any of the central midfielders showing for the ball from defence or from out wide. And I include Conteh in that who had before last night generally been quite good at positioning correctly and acting as a pivot. For whatever reason he did it very few times last night. Then if we do manage to get towards the attacking third all our central midfielders do is run straight forward, invariably not into any space that's been created or beyond a player receiving it, just literally straight forward which usually results in actually clogging things up and making it congested and more difficult. When they don't get the ball, they then just stand there, often not even in a position to receive it short from the player on the ball. Nobody has the intelligence of when to make these runs or to recognise when space has or will open up and once the initial run has been made and not come off they then don't have the intelligence to move again. Either to vacate the space or just to move the opposition around. Holohan was particularly bad at this last night in the first half. The amount of times everything just stalled on the right was ridiculous and it must have been so easy to defend against.

Which brings us to the full backs. If you're trying to spread the ball out wide, it's useful if you've got either wingers that can successfully go past their man such as Eisa or full backs willing to bomb on past, either to create space or to actually receive the ball. Efete is the only full back who regularly gets past the winger and even then his delivery is often very poor. He's not alone in that, all of the deliveries from all of the full backs is generally very easy to defend with Mullarkey putting in quite a few terrible crosses in the first half last night. I don't think Mullarkey offers enough going forward meaning our right side is often just not remotely threatening as we haven't got someone like Eisa on that side. And on the left side we've got no chance of that because we've got two left backs who are both deemed not good enough (which I think is probably correct) and although I think Efete did alright last night, he has no left foot so is never going to give Eisa the option of an overlap and it slows us down when he has to cut inside.

So in conclusion, we're left with virtually nothing. Nothing obvious drilled in to them in terms of game plan and pattern of play. Isolated strikers who are good enough but get precious little service and support. A central midfield which is either physically lacking (Hunt and Andrews) or lacks the creativity, movement and ability on the ball to play a high tempo passing game. Full backs that offer little threat going forward or certainly not a consistent enough threat. We're generally not quick enough on the ball or smart enough with it to successfully pass it through teams. And we have no pace or power to allow us to stretch the opposition and be more direct. And we have precious little in the way of depth to change things for the better during a game. Eisa is our threat generally and it's no surprise that most of our goals have come from the left side. The biggest disappointment is how it looks like they've not been coached very well and the comparison to Barrow last night was stark. But I feel that may be because Hurst has formed a squad that is neither really one thing or another and he doesn't know how to get the best out of them.

Quoted from mariner91

Offers absolutely nothing when he comes on. Wasn't even closing down or harrying them particularly. I really think Hurst has dropped a clanger if we've only got three strikers and Pyke is one of them. I get that we've been slightly unfortunate with the injury to Wilson, who I'm impressed by, but it's so frustrating that our squad is let down so much by the lack of striking options.

If Pyke signing was a result of data analytics and research we need to go back to throwing darts at a dart board

Quoted from sam gy

It's old ground now the Hunt debate, but he just doesn't seem to be imposing himself on games. Hunt has started more games than Andrews, but can anyone honestly say he's been as good??

Andrews was really good last night, i know he's not our player, but doesn't mean he cant be in the future..

The truth is we never added that high calibre attacking/creative  midfield player in the summer that we desperately needed so are left with the bits and pieces of : Gav,Clifton,Hunt, Green ,Andrews and a gamble in Ainley

All Ok to good on their day but are going to be debated consistently as they are pretty inconsistent in the main and have fairly evident flaws one way or another . Andrews might be decent in a year or 2 but he's not the finished article is he , hence being here .

Quoted from Mappers

The truth is we never added that high calibre attacking/creative  midfield player in the summer that we desperately needed so are left with the bits and pieces of : Gav,Clifton,Hunt, Green ,Andrews and a gamble in Ainley

All Ok to good on their day but are going to be debated consistently as they are pretty inconsistent in the main and have fairly evident flaws one way or another . Andrews might be decent in a year or 2 but he's not the finished article is he , hence being here .

Given that Hunt and Conteh are on longer term deals, aren’t we a little hamstrung? There seems to have been a lot of recruitment activity with not a lot of planning how the jigsaw will fit together. There’s no mystery about Alex Hunt, he was with us in the first half of our promotion season and surely we knew what we were getting when we gave him a three year deal hence it seems like we have changed how we want to play if a known quantity on a long deal can’t even make the bench.

Regarding Pyke, I really don’t know who watched his showreel but he seems to lack the bare minimum of a Paul Hurst player ie effort.

Quoted from mariner91

I think the issue is that we're just not that dangerous in any form. I like both of Wilson and Rose and really feel for Rose having spent a quarter of the season so isolated. He's shown that given good deliveries he will score but he just needs some help. Wilson looks very willing and actually has some pace which we're sorely missing. So perhaps two up front would give other teams a lot more to think about. You would then have the issue of having no depth at all because the less said about Pyke the better but I'd trust him about as  much as I trusted Junior Mendes to have a positive impact for us.

However, other than Conteh I don't think any of our other midfielders are good enough to play in a central two when they'll more often than not be outnumbered. They're either physically capable like Clifton and Holohan but severely lacking both on the ball and creatively or they're a bit better on the ball like Andrews and Hunt but would get very easily over run.

I personally think a lot of our problems stem from the centre of midfield and the full back positions. Our movement from the middle of the pitch is either non-existent or just poor. Very few times last night were any of the central midfielders showing for the ball from defence or from out wide. And I include Conteh in that who had before last night generally been quite good at positioning correctly and acting as a pivot. For whatever reason he did it very few times last night. Then if we do manage to get towards the attacking third all our central midfielders do is run straight forward, invariably not into any space that's been created or beyond a player receiving it, just literally straight forward which usually results in actually clogging things up and making it congested and more difficult. When they don't get the ball, they then just stand there, often not even in a position to receive it short from the player on the ball. Nobody has the intelligence of when to make these runs or to recognise when space has or will open up and once the initial run has been made and not come off they then don't have the intelligence to move again. Either to vacate the space or just to move the opposition around. Holohan was particularly bad at this last night in the first half. The amount of times everything just stalled on the right was ridiculous and it must have been so easy to defend against.

Which brings us to the full backs. If you're trying to spread the ball out wide, it's useful if you've got either wingers that can successfully go past their man such as Eisa or full backs willing to bomb on past, either to create space or to actually receive the ball. Efete is the only full back who regularly gets past the winger and even then his delivery is often very poor. He's not alone in that, all of the deliveries from all of the full backs is generally very easy to defend with Mullarkey putting in quite a few terrible crosses in the first half last night. I don't think Mullarkey offers enough going forward meaning our right side is often just not remotely threatening as we haven't got someone like Eisa on that side. And on the left side we've got no chance of that because we've got two left backs who are both deemed not good enough (which I think is probably correct) and although I think Efete did alright last night, he has no left foot so is never going to give Eisa the option of an overlap and it slows us down when he has to cut inside.

So in conclusion, we're left with virtually nothing. Nothing obvious drilled in to them game plan and pattern of play. Isolated strikers who are good enough but get precious little service and support. A central midfield which is either physically lacking (Hunt and Andrews) or lacks the creativity, movement and ability on the ball to play a high tempo passing game. Full backs that offer little threat going forward or certainly not a consistent enough threat. We're generally not quick enough on the ball or smart enough with it to successfully pass it through teams. And we have no pace or power to allow us to stretch the opposition and be more direct. And we have precious little in the way of depth to change things for the better during a game. Eisa is our threat generally and it's no surprise that most of our goals have come from the left side. The biggest disappointment is how it looks like they've not been coached very well and the comparison to Barrow last night was stark. But I feel that may be because Hurst has formed a squad that is neither really one thing or another and he doesn't know how to get the best out of them.

What a fantastic post, which eloquently puts the details of what some of us feel in a more composed way.

I was so staggered by last night's ineptitude I am still irritated big style but I agree with all of that analysis.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

What a fantastic post, which eloquently puts the details of what some of us feel in a more composed way.

I was so staggered by last night's ineptitude I am still irritated big style but I agree with all of that analysis.

I watched last night and came to the conclusion that we seem tactically underprepared and physically over prepared. I know that’s a bit of a generalisation but we didn’t seem to know that the best way to stop the opposition playing is to keep the ball off them.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

I watched last night and came to the conclusion that we seem tactically underprepared and physically over prepared. I know that’s a bit of a generalisation but we didn’t seem to know that the best way to stop the opposition playing is to keep the ball off them.

They look shattered to me. Like I said earlier they are like running through treacle and it must be absolutely draining to run and run with seemingly no idea what they are trying to do; I don't understand how he has bought seemingly better technical players and turned them into this.

The lack of any urgency is absolutely frightening.  I'm not sure what is going on but clearly things cannot be right behind the scenes. It could be a simple case of this group just not gelling, but we will never know.

Quoted from Bigdog

In defence of Efete's defending capabilities. He's been played on the wrong side for the past two matches and has been more solid than Mullarkey. Swindon and Barrow were more dangerous attacking our right side. ..

Cannot comment about the Swindon game but in the first half last night, Kahn just was not helping Mullarkey out. His tracking back was virtually non existent. While it is nice to see a more attack minded player, we also need him to do the basics to help out at the back.