Show us the money

Tony Butcher - as always - has come up with an excellent article on Cod Almighty.
Can't download onto here but well worth a read on his insight into the finances of 3 clubs in our sphere.

Does he mention football fortune??

We will have caught up with Lincoln a bit on turnstile revenue, but we will always be behind them, with Blundell Park as it currently is and Lincoln are expanding their away capacity. I reckon they will get nearly £500k more revenue from away fans per season than us once that opens; a relatively accessible location with much better train links they could get an average of circa 1,200 away fans per game at Sincil. Whilst most clubs wouldn’t bring anywhere near that to us we miss out on the big pay days like Bradford and Donny.

Our corporate / executive accommodation is also constrained. If we were promoted we could sell loads more than we do now, there just isn’t the space in the Findus to do that.

Really interesting and well researched read that .

Quoted from Limerick Mariner

We will have caught up with Lincoln a bit on turnstile revenue, but we will always be behind them, with Blundell Park as it currently is and Lincoln are expanding their away capacity. I reckon they will get nearly £500k more revenue from away fans per season than us once that opens; a relatively accessible location with much better train links they could get an average of circa 1,200 away fans per game at Sincil. Whilst most clubs wouldn’t bring anywhere near that to us we miss out on the big pay days like Bradford and Donny.

Our corporate / executive accommodation is also constrained. If we were promoted we could sell loads more than we do now, there just isn’t the space in the Findus to do that.

I thought the capacity increase at Lincoln got shelved because of Covid costs ,and the new stand is just being redeveloped to improve facilities . Might be wrong though .

Or are Lincoln just offering more away tickets in the ground to away fans as it is ?

Interesting read that.

I’ve said for a while that taking the best bits from Luton/Lincoln and possibly a few other scattered about would be a good plan for us, but, it’s also important for us to to approach things that suit GTFC and not just lift and shift.

There’s an argument that our capacity will be a thorn in our side but leaving BP would be an even bigger thorn due to costs etc. I do think we’ll see an extension of some sorts at some point, although expanding the away allocation doesn’t seem worth it, but home fans could be the answer there.

What I take from the article is that you need to maintain some momentum, stay focused and keep moving forward. The minute you take your foot off of the pedal or regress, all is lost, as we saw after last time.

Leaving BP is great if it can happen but as the article shows it's just money drunk up the wall if it doesn't. You can sink all that money into planning and then the whole operation is shut down because of the people in the local area arguing against it and other planning roadblocks

Had we managed to ride that momentum and get it built who knows where we'd be by now. I guess it could have ended up like Darlington's stadium that just kept costing them more money and led to administration. When the project was at its most likely we were in a much better position than when Darlington spunked a load of money on a new stadium they can't fill.

Quoted from Kris2

Leaving BP is great if it can happen but as the article shows it's just money drunk up the wall if it doesn't. You can sink all that money into planning and then the whole operation is shut down because of the people in the local area arguing against it and other planning roadblocks

Had we managed to ride that momentum and get it built who knows where we'd be by now. I guess it could have ended up like Darlington's stadium that just kept costing them more money and led to administration. When the project was at its most likely we were in a much better position than when Darlington spunked a load of money on a new stadium they can't fill.

Christ looking back at the thought of our John being the brainchild behind a new stadium makes me shudder .

It would have been crap ,most of the new builds for lower league teams over the last two decades have been , I went  to Oxford Utd's  ground the other week and it's awful , hate Colchester's , Donny does not do it for me and there are more,  even Wembley I don't like  ; the only one I like a bit is Rotherhams .

I know for financial reasons it's helpful but for matchday they are no way near as good as the old traditional grounds - love BP , love Fratton Park even Selhurst Park ; 'shitholes' but the nostalgia does it for me rather than a posh pint in a fancy concourse .

Just opinion of course

At least if we were ever to get a new one , I would be more confident in Pettit and Stockwood to deliver something to the fans liking though than before .

Cost aside, football momentum aside, just compare the two periods of ownership…which would honestly have the ability to deliver anything like a stadium project? We all know the answer.

Honest John spaffed a fair few quid of the clubs money up the wall chasing an ambition that, in truth was about him, his ego and his pocket, not the long term future of the club. I honestly believe that had a stadium been anywhere near been built it would’ve been dreadful and probably seen us go the same way as Darlington.

I remember going to Colchester the first time and was terrified, not because we might lose, the steep steps or the fact it’s in the middle of nowhere but because the experience is awful, truly woeful but our John would’ve no doubt been impressed, parking spaces for him, fancy entrance and some ikea designed corporate experience…he’d have wanted something similar, although it would never have been pulled off.

Stadiums can make or break a club and at present you’d imagine that unless you’re flying like Luton for instance, it’s probably a poor time to start investing and exploring a new stadium or full move.

Interesting article.

A few things popped into my head about how Lincoln are doing things.

Is it known who is buying each batch of newly issued shares at Lincoln?
Does it affect the control of the club and if so could this lead to similar  issues with having a single “benefactor”?
Presumably Trust owned clubs couldn’t operate this way as they’d have to find others willing to invest and that would, over time, erode the control over the club?

I did a 'corporate' at Brentford a little while ago and during the tour they said that they could do hospitality for around 50 people at Griffin Park (and they admitted it was not a good experience). At the new stadium it's nearer 5000.

Commercially that is your justification for a new ground, although I know Town would not be getting 5000 in hospitality.

Quoted from Mike_67

Interesting article.

A few things popped into my head about how Lincoln are doing things.

Is it known who is buying each batch of newly issued shares at Lincoln?
Does it affect the control of the club and if so could this lead to similar  issues with having a single “benefactor”?
Presumably Trust owned clubs couldn’t operate this way as they’d have to find others willing to invest and that would, over time, erode the control over the club?

It's mainly goodwill I believe through Landon Donavan and American's , with smaller share percentages shared around with control with Nates and operations run by the CEO , seems a really good setup tbf .

Supporters running a club competitively is pie in the sky - look at our new friends Newport - they are a proper fan owned club but have very low crowds and have 13 senior pro's unable to compete financially with hardly anyone in league 2 .

Exeter do it better , but as someone mentioned on another thread got 6 million from the sale of Watkins which must have helped .

Wimbledon are the only other one I can think of , seems be set as an average league 2 club for a while with decent gates .

I actually think we are in the fortunate position that we are essentially fan owned with owners (with £££)that support the club and are willing to let the fans have input .

I would be interested to know of the 92 how many clubs are operated by owners who are lifelong fans - ir's probably - 30 just from the Prem and Champ so you are down to 60 say , and i reckon another half of that are maybe outsiders at a guess.

It's a pretty low bar with the terrible level of football ownership wrong uns though .

Quoted from Mappers

It's mainly goodwill I believe through Landon Donavan and American's , with smaller share percentages shared around with control with Nates and operations run by the CEO , seems a really good setup tbf .

Supporters running a club competitively is pie in the sky - look at our new friends Newport - they are a proper fan owned club but have very low crowds and have 13 senior pro's unable to compete financially with hardly anyone in league 2 .

Exeter do it better , but as someone mentioned on another thread got 6 million from the sale of Watkins which must have helped .

Wimbledon are the only other one I can think of , seems be set as an average league 2 club for a while with decent gates .

I actually think we are in the fortunate position that we are essentially fan owned with owners that support the club and are willing to let the fans have input .

It's a pretty low bar with the terrible level of football ownership wrong uns though .

As difficult as it is to pick your promotion favourites for League Two next season, the bottom group is looking increasingly clear.

Newport currently have only two contracted seniors defenders for next season, one of whom still has fewer than 50 appearances to his name.

There’s going to be a very clear divide in next season’s League Two table, I reckon.

Quoted from Poojah

As difficult as it is to pick your promotion favourites for League Two next season, the bottom group is looking increasingly clear.

Newport currently have only two contracted seniors defenders for next season, one of whom still has fewer than 50 appearances to his name.

There’s going to be a very clear divide in next season’s League Two table, I reckon.

Yeah I would say definately struggle badly-  
Newport
Morecambe
Crawley

Then maybe -
Sutton
Accrington
Colchester
Crewe
FGR
Harrogate
Wimbledon

I am sure Crewe will be the next once bigish traditional club to go at some point soon , no investment and still trying to bring through a few youth players but slowly declining year on year - almost a copy of us from the last decades .

What do you think ,any more ?

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

I did a 'corporate' at Brentford a little while ago and during the tour they said that they could do hospitality for around 50 people at Griffin Park (and they admitted it was not a good experience). At the new stadium it's nearer 5000.

Commercially that is your justification for a new ground, although I know Town would not be getting 5000 in hospitality.

Yep - I did corporate at Brighton and it was outstanding and they had loads of capacity. £200 was good value for an FA Cup QF. If we drew Derby at home in the FACup first round - what could we sell in corporate to home and away fans if we had the capacity - 200 @ £100? If so it would be close to the same revenue as the away allocation. This is where we lose out with BP as it is now.

Quoted from Limerick Mariner

Yep - I did corporate at Brighton and it was outstanding and they had loads of capacity. £200 was good value for an FA Cup QF. If we drew Derby at home in the FACup first round - what could we sell in corporate to home and away fans if we had the capacity - 200 @ £100? If so it would be close to the same revenue as the away allocation. This is where we lose out with BP as it is now.

I get how some want to keep the old girl and not move to a plastic stadium but this is the stark reality of old grounds. As well as restricted income BP is now costing money to just keep going and open. The head has to rule the heart.

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

I get how some want to keep the old girl and not move to a plastic stadium but this is the stark reality of old grounds. As well as restricted income BP is now costing money to just keep going and open. The head has to rule the heart.

But a new stadium is out of the question due to cost, so we are stuck with the old girl whether we like it or not. We will have to refurbish when we can unless miracles happen in the future.

Quoted from Mappers

It's mainly goodwill I believe through Landon Donavan and American's , with smaller share percentages shared around with control with Nates and operations run by the CEO , seems a really good setup tbf .

Supporters running a club competitively is pie in the sky - look at our new friends Newport - they are a proper fan owned club but have very low crowds and have 13 senior pro's unable to compete financially with hardly anyone in league 2 .

Exeter do it better , but as someone mentioned on another thread got 6 million from the sale of Watkins which must have helped .

Wimbledon are the only other one I can think of , seems be set as an average league 2 club for a while with decent gates .

I actually think we are in the fortunate position that we are essentially fan owned with owners (with £££)that support the club and are willing to let the fans have input .

I would be interested to know of the 92 how many clubs are operated by owners who are lifelong fans - ir's probably - 30 just from the Prem and Champ so you are down to 60 say , and i reckon another half of that are maybe outsiders at a guess.

It's a pretty low bar with the terrible level of football ownership wrong uns though .

Ok thanks.
I always wonder what’s in it for them with investors in football clubs - especially lower league ones.  Either they’re fans that have done well financially and want to have an influence on their local team or they’re in it for some future payoff (or maybe it’s a short term plaything because they’re extremely wealthy). Can’t see a payoff with a lower team though unless they’re putting serious money in and hoping to make it to championship or even higher.
Agree about the fan ownership option. I could never see how a club owned by it’s fanbase could compete when other clubs have much better access to funds - even if I struggle to understand why many of the investors are doing it.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

But a new stadium is out of the question due to cost, so we are stuck with the old girl whether we like it or not. We will have to refurbish when we can unless miracles happen in the future.

I agree. And the owners have said the same. But there will come a time when the costs of BP are untenable.

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

I agree. And the owners have said the same. But there will come a time when the costs of BP are untenable.

How far off do you think that is ?

I mean is there a point in the short to medium term when the Main stand could be condemned/ not safe to use?

I suppose to stick with BP is like running the old girl in the 3:15 at Doncaster. No amount of paint is going to make her teeth glow brighter.

Though the crowds suggest that BP is holding its own with a few sellouts a season, we are left with only one corporate capable stand that is showing its age at forty years, yet can, from info in this thread, seat 50 paying customers a game. Having been to other grounds, that is low at our level.

Other clubs I have been to have realised that to go further, more corporate facilities need to be available. Ayr Utd have taken the decision to knock down the old corporate suite and build a ne facility, increasing that income stream. We, at BP, can only get a can of paint out and cover the cracks in the main stand.

But where can we out a new corporate box? When I first went to BP we had open corners, spent many a Saturday on the Constitutional Avenue corner. These are not used, so why not here in the first place?

Until this income stream increases, further league progress is hindered?

Quoted from Mappers

Yeah I would say definately struggle badly-  
Newport
Morecambe
Crawley

Then maybe -
Sutton
Accrington
Colchester
Crewe
FGR
Harrogate
Wimbledon

I am sure Crewe will be the next once bigish traditional club to go at some point soon , no investment and still trying to bring through a few youth players but slowly declining year on year - almost a copy of us from the last decades .

What do you think ,any more ?

I spoke to an Accrington fan the other day and he reckons they’re in free fall. He rates Rodger who we poached, and even told me their best player justified leaving by the fact he couldn’t afford to travel to Accrington as he was paid so low! Promptly signed for port vale.

He thinks they could ‘do a Scunny’ (my analogy, not his - it’s not in the day-to-day football lexicon yet outside of Lincolnshire) and drop twice on the trot.

An interesting thread, as are the replies. I doubt either of us will move from SB/BP anytime soon, but with the upgrading of the Stacey West Stand already in progress, it gives us an advantage in the longer term.

I saw plans for Luton’s new stadium a while back but still no sign of it, and like yourselves, upgrading Kenilworth Road will cost a small fortune that will eat up the Premier League TV income, not to mention players wages if they’re going to have any hope of avoiding relegation.

The Imps look in a good place both on and off the pitch, with top half Tier 3 as good as we can realistically hope for … and I’m content with that.

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

I agree. And the owners have said the same. But there will come a time when the costs of BP are untenable.

I wonder if it is feasible to do a complete rebuild of BP over time?

The benefit is we already have the plot, we can do it over a decade or more and can be working from a new stadium blueprint but done over a time frame we can afford.

The downsides is that the plot might not be big enough, the cost of dismantling the existing stands increases the price and we would have an even more reduced capacity whilst the work is done.

It is a dilemma for sure, but a new stadium seems out of reach otherwise we would all want that I would imagine if it wasn't a boring flat pack design.

In part it will depend on our success on the field - if we did do as well as we hope it would become critical.

Perhaps it is not on the owners agenda at all. Perhaps their main aims are to get the club properly set up, some success on the field and will pass the baton on to people with even deeper pockets.

Quoted from NorfolkImp

An interesting thread, as are the replies. I doubt either of us will move from SB/BP anytime soon, but with the upgrading of the Stacey West Stand already in progress, it gives us an advantage in the longer term.

I saw plans for Luton’s new stadium a while back but still no sign of it, and like yourselves, upgrading Kenilworth Road will cost a small fortune that will eat up the Premier League TV income, not to mention players wages if they’re going to have any hope of avoiding relegation.

The Imps look in a good place both on and off the pitch, with top half Tier 3 as good as we can realistically hope for … and I’m content with that.

They have to fund 11 million just for it to comply with the EPL criteria , small change for where they are now but fortunes in terms of where they have come from .

I suppose the only realistic route for Town or Lincoln now without somebody putting their hand in their pocket for 40 or 50 million quid is enabling housing projects out of town ; which don't seem to create a great atmosphere both in and out of the stadium .

I think Lincoln might actually have an outside shot of the play-offs next season, a solid club in what looks a notably weaker league 1, with both the teams going up and the one's imploding who have come down from The Champ making it look a more evenly contested league .

I would stick my neck out and predict that our next ground will form some part of the "Freshney Valley" project, it's a huge development that could quite easily house a football stadium and other retail space on the land between Great Coates & Healing

Rail network already in place, ample space for car parking and a perfect location for visiting supporters being on the A180

Just needs a few intelligent local folk to get together to make it happen, could be great for Grimsby/Cleethorpes and could solve many of the local issues with just the one development, i.e. park and ride into cleethorpes which would solve traffic/parking issues during the summer months, decent conference facilities & wedding venues etc which the town is lacking the list is endless and all extra commercial income for the club

I love Blundell Park especially on a freezing cold Tuesday evening in December to me that is football but i speak to plenty who don't see the old girl like i do and stay away because the facilities are so poor, speculate to accumulate give the fans a bit of quality and you watch the attendances rise  

Quoted from Simon

I would stick my neck out and predict that our next ground will form some part of the "Freshney Valley" project, it's a huge development that could quite easily house a football stadium and other retail space on the land between Great Coates & Healing

Rail network already in place, ample space for car parking and a perfect location for visiting supporters being on the A180

Just needs a few intelligent local folk to get together to make it happen, could be great for Grimsby/Cleethorpes and could solve many of the local issues with just the one development, i.e. park and ride into cleethorpes which would solve traffic/parking issues during the summer months, decent conference facilities & wedding venues etc which the town is lacking the list is endless and all extra commercial income for the club
  

A stadium at Great Coates eh?

Quoted from pizzzza

A stadium at Great Coates eh?

Yeah, funny how things sometimes go full circle

Freshney Valley still has a lot of hoops to jump through to come to fruition so don't hold your breath but it makes sense to have the ground as part of the project, 10-15 years would be my guesstimate

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

I wonder if it is feasible to do a complete rebuild of BP over time?

The benefit is we already have the plot, we can do it over a decade or more and can be working from a new stadium blueprint but done over a time frame we can afford.

The downsides is that the plot might not be big enough, the cost of dismantling the existing stands increases the price and we would have an even more reduced capacity whilst the work is done.

It is a dilemma for sure, but a new stadium seems out of reach otherwise we would all want that I would imagine if it wasn't a boring flat pack design.

In part it will depend on our success on the field - if we did do as well as we hope it would become critical.

Perhaps it is not on the owners agenda at all. Perhaps their main aims are to get the club properly set up, some success on the field and will pass the baton on to people with even deeper pockets.

I've never previously been a fan of this idea, lending my support more to the brand new crisp stadium in some open space with better commutability. Appeals to mine aesthetic eye.

In the last year or so however I do find myself coming back the other way and wondering if redeveloping BP might be a better option. The one thing I see as difficult within that project though - and why I don't think it would be feasible without substantial cost - is the proximity of houses.

Although we wouldn't need towering stands all the way around like the Findus, the whole point would be to build something to cater not just for today but for the future and hopeful success that might be part of said future. The corners will obviously add an awful lot of extra capacity without the need for height.

The bit I can't see though is how the work will be able to take place, without disrupting the season in terms of encroaching on the pitch and with the houses all round. People within the construction industry may easily point out how simple it could be but I can't see past the limited space for construction without impacting the pitch and ability for games to go ahead.

It also just occurred to me that an improved stadium with improved corporate facilities would require increased car parking availability which again I can't see being possible without a number of houses being purchased and knocked down. Obviously not a show-stopper and still possibly cheaper than a brand new stadium but I imagine could be more tricky to achieve.

It certainly does feel we're between a rock and a hard place at the minute. We've had two seasons out of two with the new owners where ST sales have been fantastic and shows the support is out there, yet we'd perhaps be jumping the gun to rush into a brand new stadium. But we can't prove the height of that support given the limitations BP has. It's a nice problem to be in, and better discussing this than discussing how can we get more local football fans into BP to support the club which was more the case pre JS and AP.

Quoted from Mappers

How far off do you think that is ?

I mean is there a point in the short to medium term when the Main stand could be condemned/ not safe to use?

Wouldn‘t have a clue, it`s not my area of expertise. It`s all about safety and as long as it`s deemed safe we can keep going. While the Main is the most obvious potential issue the Osmond is hardly a new stand and will probably attract interest from the safety inspectors as much as the Main.

It`s not just the stand though. The Main has all the changing rooms and other `facilities` and they are woefully out of date. I understand the changing rooms are tiny and just not up to a decent standard (despite sinks being put in for the ladies).

Someone suggested we could knock down BP and rebuild on the same site - the footprint of BP is very small and hemmed in by houses on 3 sides (3 and a bit really). So to increase capacity we would have to build bigger stands and that may not go down well with the residents backing on to the ground. They may also object to the potential increase in traffic and congestion from a bigger ground. And it`s a more expensive option, very few clubs have rebuilt their ground where they were struggling for space - Liverpool took a chunk of Stanley Park, Chelsea had a huge footprint to begin with, Old Tafford has loads of space round it but The Dell, Maine Rd, Bolton (The Old Show Ground!) were all like BP.

Luton is a potential exception as their proposed new ground is slap bang in the town centre but it`s (verbally at least) backed by the council who see it as a focal point for regeneration, very much like the plans we were shown for building a new ground on the old market/flats on Freeman St.

But the owners say a new ground is not on the agenda for the foreseeable future. For their sake, I hope the safety inspectors feel the same way.

Quoted from gtfc_chris

I've never previously been a fan of this idea, lending my support more to the brand new crisp stadium in some open space with better commutability. Appeals to mine aesthetic eye.

In the last year or so however I do find myself coming back the other way and wondering if redeveloping BP might be a better option. The one thing I see as difficult within that project though - and why I don't think it would be feasible without substantial cost - is the proximity of houses.

Although we wouldn't need towering stands all the way around like the Findus, the whole point would be to build something to cater not just for today but for the future and hopeful success that might be part of said future. The corners will obviously add an awful lot of extra capacity without the need for height.

The bit I can't see though is how the work will be able to take place, without disrupting the season in terms of encroaching on the pitch and with the houses all round. People within the construction industry may easily point out how simple it could be but I can't see past the limited space for construction without impacting the pitch and ability for games to go ahead.

It also just occurred to me that an improved stadium with improved corporate facilities would require increased car parking availability which again I can't see being possible without a number of houses being purchased and knocked down. Obviously not a show-stopper and still possibly cheaper than a brand new stadium but I imagine could be more tricky to achieve.

It certainly does feel we're between a rock and a hard place at the minute. We've had two seasons out of two with the new owners where ST sales have been fantastic and shows the support is out there, yet we'd perhaps be jumping the gun to rush into a brand new stadium. But we can't prove the height of that support given the limitations BP has. It's a nice problem to be in, and better discussing this than discussing how can we get more local football fans into BP to support the club which was more the case pre JS and AP.

I would be surprised if there was any chance of getting planning permission for new car parking. Planning at the moment generally tries to discourage car use and encourage public transport. Encouraging cars into the area would also increase congestion on match days and no council will legislate for that. The new Everton stadium has almost no car parking.

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

Wouldn‘t have a clue, it`s not my area of expertise. It`s all about safety and as long as it`s deemed safe we can keep going. While the Main is the most obvious potential issue the Osmond is hardly a new stand and will probably attract interest from the safety inspectors as much as the Main.

It`s not just the stand though. The Main has all the changing rooms and other `facilities` and they are woefully out of date. I understand the changing rooms are tiny and just not up to a decent standard (despite sinks being put in for the ladies).

Someone suggested we could knock down BP and rebuild on the same site - the footprint of BP is very small and hemmed in by houses on 3 sides (3 and a bit really). So to increase capacity we would have to build bigger stands and that may not go down well with the residents backing on to the ground. They may also object to the potential increase in traffic and congestion from a bigger ground. And it`s a more expensive option, very few clubs have rebuilt their ground where they were struggling for space - Liverpool took a chunk of Stanley Park, Chelsea had a huge footprint to begin with, Old Tafford has loads of space round it but The Dell, Maine Rd, Bolton (The Old Show Ground!) were all like BP.

Luton is a potential exception as their proposed new ground is slap bang in the town centre but it`s (verbally at least) backed by the council who see it as a focal point for regeneration, very much like the plans we were shown for building a new ground on the old market/flats on Freeman St.

But the owners say a new ground is not on the agenda for the foreseeable future. For their sake, I hope the safety inspectors feel the same way.

Cheers

Quoted from Simon

I would stick my neck out and predict that our next ground will form some part of the "Freshney Valley" project, it's a huge development that could quite easily house a football stadium and other retail space on the land between Great Coates & Healing

Rail network already in place, ample space for car parking and a perfect location for visiting supporters being on the A180

Just needs a few intelligent local folk to get together to make it happen, could be great for Grimsby/Cleethorpes and could solve many of the local issues with just the one development, i.e. park and ride into cleethorpes which would solve traffic/parking issues during the summer months, decent conference facilities & wedding venues etc which the town is lacking the list is endless and all extra commercial income for the club

I love Blundell Park especially on a freezing cold Tuesday evening in December to me that is football but i speak to plenty who don't see the old girl like i do and stay away because the facilities are so poor, speculate to accumulate give the fans a bit of quality and you watch the attendances rise  

I am 100% behind any new stadium, but let’s be honest, there is no money for this and never will be. Even a town fan winning the Euro Millions probably wouldn’t pay the bill.

A new ground is never, ever going to happen. It’s taken me years to realise it, but I believe it’s very likely fact. Gutting.

Quoted from Heisenberg

I am 100% behind any new stadium, but let’s be honest, there is no money for this and never will be. Even a town fan winning the Euro Millions probably wouldn’t pay the bill.

A new ground is never, ever going to happen. It’s taken me years to realise it, but I believe it’s very likely fact. Gutting.

I suppose one step at a time

Has anyone got an update on the new training ground?

I must be in the minority but I’m really not arsed about a new ground, certainly not one stuck out near flipping Great Coates with intercourse all around it.

The owners have been keen to stress the importance of building a community club, a stadium stuck on the edge of town does not say ‘community’. Again, we have people obsessing over increasing parking, surely, in 2023 we should be looking at getting fans and encouraging fans to get to a ground in other ways rather than just encouraging driving.

It seems like everyone went to Brighton, no massive car park there.

I’d imagine that many a discussion has taken place regarding a redevelopment of BP, and whilst some armchair experts seem to obsess over BP being knackered and seem to have some insider made up knowledge about safety certificates etc, I think there’s genuine suggestions probably being made about BP.

The previous owner wasted so much time and money on a Roy of the rovers drawing and seeking planning permission at sites that were beneficial to him that he ignored BP completely because of pig ignorance really. Had he given it a tad more TLC it wouldn’t be half as bad.

Also, if you live on say, Blundell Ave, if the pontoon suddenly doubled in height, I’m not sure that would have any negative effect on either your life or property, and it would be a modern looking building as opposed to what exists now.

Besides, there isn’t the money knocking about so fans would be better thinking about other stuff and talking about the club improving in other aspects because we’re not getting a ground anytime soon.

Is it worth potentially bankrupting a club simply to increase some corporate aspects and because a few precious folk don’t want to sit in an old stadium (these folk seem mythical and I’d imagine don’t got to any games in league 2 other than Donnie away and May be Bradford)…

Short term to put it bluntly we need more seats at BP.
We have less than 200 decent viewing sears available in the home stands after season ticket sales. We have a minimum of 500 walk up fans at weekends and this is before the new owners came in and seats became limited.
I assume they are already but we need to be looking at how we can increase the home capacity for this season. Its a very small risk but if we are doing well we can easily get 7k home fans in most weeks

It’s a genuine question but how many people do we ‘turn away’ each home game?

We heard all last season there were loads being turned away yet it never seemed more than a handful of fans who had a mate of a mate who couldn’t get a ticket…

Short to mid term I'd like to see the Pontoon extended round to the Findus and Main at the same height the Pontoon currently is . This would make a better atmosphere and add around 2k home seats. Next a complete gutting and refurb of the Main stand which whilst not really adding capacity could make 2/300 of the seats more viable to purchase with a ST? . On a smaller scale between Findus  and Osmond a purpose built state of the art disabled stand possibly with more corporate space .The cost would be manageable but its not a quick fix by any means and personally I'd much prefer a new ground Freemo/Docks.

Quoted from aldi_01

It’s a genuine question but how many people do we ‘turn away’ each home game?

We heard all last season there were loads being turned away yet it never seemed more than a handful of fans who had a mate of a mate who couldn’t get a ticket…

I`m an exile. I couldn`t get a ticket for a home game last year other than with a restricted view and I couldn`t get 2 together for me and my wife. So I didn`t go.

With modern building technology, I suspect it would be possible to build a much better stand in the footprint of the Findus, wider, with more seats (and a better view if the posts were removed) and facilities better suited for corporate/office stuff. Same goes for the Main Stand, of course.

Other than the cost, the big issue is what to do with the fans while these things are being built. You can't build a stand in a couple of months so, at current levels of attendance, somebody would have to miss out for a while.

Quoted from aldi_01

I must be in the minority but I’m really not arsed about a new ground, certainly not one stuck out near flipping Great Coates with intercourse all around it.

The owners have been keen to stress the importance of building a community club, a stadium stuck on the edge of town does not say ‘community’. Again, we have people obsessing over increasing parking, surely, in 2023 we should be looking at getting fans and encouraging fans to get to a ground in other ways rather than just encouraging driving.

It seems like everyone went to Brighton, no massive car park there.

I’d imagine that many a discussion has taken place regarding a redevelopment of BP, and whilst some armchair experts seem to obsess over BP being knackered and seem to have some insider made up knowledge about safety certificates etc, I think there’s genuine suggestions probably being made about BP.

The previous owner wasted so much time and money on a Roy of the rovers drawing and seeking planning permission at sites that were beneficial to him that he ignored BP completely because of pig ignorance really. Had he given it a tad more TLC it wouldn’t be half as bad.

Also, if you live on say, Blundell Ave, if the pontoon suddenly doubled in height, I’m not sure that would have any negative effect on either your life or property, and it would be a modern looking building as opposed to what exists now.

Besides, there isn’t the money knocking about so fans would be better thinking about other stuff and talking about the club improving in other aspects because we’re not getting a ground anytime soon.

Is it worth potentially bankrupting a club simply to increase some corporate aspects and because a few precious folk don’t want to sit in an old stadium (these folk seem mythical and I’d imagine don’t got to any games in league 2 other than Donnie away and May be Bradford)…

Your comments about armchair experts and having insider knowledge about safety certificates feels like a dig at me and that`s fine, it`s all about opinions.

I started the post saying I wasn`t an expert and you hardly need insider knowledge to suggest safety certificates may be an issue for the oldest (all wooden) stand still in use at a senior football ground.

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

I would be surprised if there was any chance of getting planning permission for new car parking. Planning at the moment generally tries to discourage car use and encourage public transport. Encouraging cars into the area would also increase congestion on match days and no council will legislate for that. The new Everton stadium has almost no car parking.

I agree entirely about the parking. Fashionable thinking changes all the time - at one time out of town stadia was all the rage, with the car parks seemingly the most important thing. Now it is the complete opposite with planners desperate to reduce car journeys.

This adds to the benefit of perhaps improving BP over time, as it seems it is less of a hindrance in not requiring a massive plot. If we can get any form of decent stadium on that site for playing the matches and an improved corporate presence then that might be OK in the longer term.

A rebuild with clever options to get the fans to the ground might be a plan, but as someone said we are between a rock and a hard place whatever we do.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

I agree entirely about the parking. Fashionable thinking changes all the time - at one time out of town stadia was all the rage, with the car parks seemingly the most important thing. Now it is the complete opposite with planners desperate to reduce car journeys.

This adds to the benefit of perhaps improving BP over time, as it seems it is less of a hindrance in not requiring a massive plot. If we can get any form of decent stadium on that site for playing the matches and an improved corporate presence then that might be OK in the longer term.

A rebuild with clever options to get the fans to the ground might be a plan, but as someone said we are between a rock and a hard place whatever we do.

Agreed although I struggle to see thinking about car journeys changing in the foreseeable future, the whole of society is trying to wean itself off them. A number of clubs run very good park and ride schemes from car parks some distance from the ground but that's quite expensive to run for the club.

The other thing that counts against out of town developments is the death of bricks and mortar retail. A lot of new grounds were tied to retail developments (as was the original Gt Coates plan) but the big shops are reluctant to get into that unless they're in a guaranteed spot for footfall etc

I was a big fan of the Freeman St proposal because it seemed to tick a lot of boxes but it appears that it was as much a pipe dream as some of the other schemes imagined during the dark days of the previous regime.

Rebuilding BP is possible, Brentford's new ground was built on a very small parcel of land, but it's the balance between the added expense of that and the cost of a new piece of land with easier access and far fewer restrictions. And the loss of income to the club while chunks of the ground are closed off for building.

And finally, I don't know anything about this but, the council has not been helpful to the club over the years and I can't imagine that the planning committee would be supportive of the disruption that rebuilding BP would cause. Especially if some of the club's neighbours (aka voters) started kicking off about it.

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

Agreed although I struggle to see thinking about car journeys changing in the foreseeable future, the whole of society is trying to wean itself off them. A number of clubs run very good park and ride schemes from car parks some distance from the ground but that's quite expensive to run for the club.

The other thing that counts against out of town developments is the death of bricks and mortar retail. A lot of new grounds were tied to retail developments (as was the original Gt Coates plan) but the big shops are reluctant to get into that unless they're in a guaranteed spot for footfall etc

I was a big fan of the Freeman St proposal because it seemed to tick a lot of boxes but it appears that it was as much a pipe dream as some of the other schemes imagined during the dark days of the previous regime.

Rebuilding BP is possible, Brentford's new ground was built on a very small parcel of land, but it's the balance between the added expense of that and the cost of a new piece of land with easier access and far fewer restrictions. And the loss of income to the club while chunks of the ground are closed off for building.

And finally, I don't know anything about this but, the council has not been helpful to the club over the years and I can't imagine that the planning committee would be supportive of the disruption that rebuilding BP would cause. Especially if some of the club's neighbours (aka voters) started kicking off about it.

Like we say, betwixt a rock and a hard place!

Quoted from aldi_01

It’s a genuine question but how many people do we ‘turn away’ each home game?

We heard all last season there were loads being turned away yet it never seemed more than a handful of fans who had a mate of a mate who couldn’t get a ticket…

What's your dataset to make that conclusion?

There's a number of people here who discuss and debate the ticket situation, many of whom are ST holders so the information wouldn't apply. In a town coupled with surrounding areas of population somewhere in the region of 120,000, it's not possible to fully quantify how many fans we're missing out on based on knowing a very small proportion of them.

The only distinguishing words you've used are 'being turned away'. The club can't/don't/won't turn people away. People are either able to get a ticket because it's available or they're not. The point many of the posters here raise is how many are not turning up because when they look at what is available on the ticketing portal it is a singular ticket here or a row of tickets right at the back of the main stand?

The Osmond has been open and more often than not it hasn't sold out and suggests we don't need to do much to expand. But again, there's a void of knowledge and information as to whether people are choosing not to sit in there for whatever reasons.

Unless you questioned every person in Grimsby, Cleethorpes and surrounding areas and took very targeted information it can never be proven either way. Limited ticket availability in the home ends supports the view that we're outgrowing BP and need to take measures to increase our capacity. The fact we're not selling out the overflow area when the Osmond is open supports the view that we can still get a few more in yet.

This was another topic of debate last season but if the club announced the attendance on tickets sold (which can be referenced to the online ticketing portal) this would probably show a different picture to the spins of the turnstile approach. Take both and we'd answer a third debate about what percentage of ticket holders are not attending per game.

Personally I think we have to have immediate ideas and plans to increase capacity. We're all looking at these last two years and how much change is happening in terms of outlook and engagement with fans. The data is conclusive that we've twice hit record ST sales and so our match going fanbase is increasing, without question. If we have a good season, dare I say it get promoted, that trend will only continue and possibly intensify and we need to be ready to capitalise on people willing to get behind the club whilst we can because there's always a risk that the bubble could burst.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Like we say, betwixt a rock and a hard place!

Maybe we should talk to Scunny about a ground share in (say) Brigg? They sell GP (if they actually own it), we sell BP and we build a brand new 18000 seat stadium. They'd only have to open one stand for a home game.

I'M JOKING!!!

Great post Chris.  The overflow in the Osmond is an interesting point, how often have we sold or got close to selling that out when we've had the option to dip into it.

There's a lot of presumptions that we're having to make when it comes to our capacity, our tickets sold vs bums on seats and demand that isn't/can't be met.

Without wanting to dampen any enthusiasm for this coming season, last season was largely a hard watch.  You take the cup run out of it and it was dull as ditchwater, especially at home.  Yet we continually did or got very close to selling all available tickets.  What's it going to be like when we're entertaining and/or winning lots of games?  

Similarish number of season tickets sold with yet another presumption that the approx. 20% non-renewal rate/new uptake is a case of exiles buying in panic dropping off with the uptake coming from those closer to the ground (and more likely to go to more games).  Logic suggests that those 1,000 new ST holders will largely come from those who wanted to walk-up last season and ended up getting the excrement seats dotted about here, there and everywhere.  So our actual bums on seats might not increase that much.  But again, you add into the equation that we hope to have a better season and I'm not so sure.

I think we need to accept that a new stadium isn't happening, not without one of two things happening first.  1) Someone finds £60million down the back of the sofa that they're happy to throw at a 12,000 purpose built stadium.  2) The costs associated with building a 12,000 purpose built stadium absolutely collapse.  Scenario 1 isn't going to happen.  If scenario 2 happens I suspect the wider knock on would rule us out of any such move anyway.  That means we're at BP, or at least the footprint, of BP for a long, long time.

Essential we make the most of what we can.  Redevelopment is an option and I seem to think that very early in the tenure of 1878 Pettit noted that (or Stockwood referenced it) an area of his expertise is utilising limited space in such situations like this.  To my limited knowledge we don't have anyone frequent this board who's got that level of insight, skills or experience.  It could well be that it's not unfeasible to do some very clever and creative adjustments to turn BP into something very sustainable for the future.

What I do know is that redevelopment doesn't happen overnight.  Nor in the course of a summer.  Any redeveloping or rebuilding of individual stands will take time and it will have to done bit-by-bit.  The costs for this will still be exceptionally high.  Playing crudely with figures but if we decided to rebuild the Main Stand, for example, that's a quarter of your capacity gone for a season.  Now of course once that's rebuilt you would hope that it holds a good portion more, so when you come onto rebuild, lets say, the Pontoon the reduction is a lower percentage of your capacity.  By the time you come to the final stand, it's comparatively minimal to first phase.  

But to start off with, whichever stand we redevelop first, we would be left with about 6,000 capacity as a maximum.  Our recent bar is there or there abouts anyway.  Last season it was felt that if it the gate dipped below 6,000 it was a low gate. As we strive to improve, I think need to stick to that as a minimum.  If we do redevelop, I would hope that some sort of temp seating is in place where possible to reduce the number of lost seats.

When it comes to a corporate offer, we're not even as good as inadequate.  The staff do their best with what they've got but they're swimming against a rip-tide.  Again, if redevelopment happens then the first 'new' stand needs to have the flagship corporate functions in there so we can play catch-up as soon as possible.

I would genuinely love to know what 1878's thoughts and plans are on the future in terms of how we navigate this very tough position.  Fully appreciate they're near certain to not share that for the time.

Crazy idea - rip down the Findus, expand it outwards into the car park, make it wider so it goes to the Ponny and the Osmond, stick some huge sparkly new changing rooms at basement level on that side with a basement car park for the club officials and then have a stonking great hospitality set up, along with club shop and more food/drink outlets across ground floor and 2nd (or even a third tier!). Solves the changing room issues, the corporate issues, the land issues (maybe) and creates more seats in general. All the money making bits taken care of in this 1st phase means it can pay itself off quicker and then allow a rebuild of the next stand in turn etc

Bring on the red crosses!

Quoted from diehardmariner

Great post Chris.  The overflow in the Osmond is an interesting point, how often have we sold or got close to selling that out when we've had the option to dip into it.

There's a lot of presumptions that we're having to make when it comes to our capacity, our tickets sold vs seats on bums and demand that isn't/can't be met.

Without wanting to dampen any enthusiasm for this coming season, last season was largely a hard watch.  You take the cup run out of it and it was dull as ditchwater, especially at home.  Yet we continually did or got very close to selling all available tickets.  What's it going to be like when we're entertaining and/or winning lots of games?  

Similarish number of season tickets sold with yet another presumption that the approx. 20% non-renewal rate/new uptake is a case of exiles buying in panic dropping off with the uptake coming from those closer to the ground (and more likely to go to more games).  Logic suggests that those 1,000 new ST holders will largely come from those who wanted to walk-up last season and ended up getting the excrement seats dotted about here, there and everywhere.  So our actual bums on seats might not increase that much.  But again, you add into the equation that we hope to have a better season and I'm not so sure.

I think we need to accept that a new stadium isn't happening, not without one of two things happening first.  1) Someone finds £60million down the back of the sofa that they're happy to throw at a 12,000 purpose built stadium.  2) The costs associated with building a 12,000 purpose built stadium absolutely collapse.  Scenario 1 isn't going to happen.  If scenario 2 happens I suspect the wider knock on would rule us out of any such move anyway.  That means we're at BP, or at least the footprint, of BP for a long, long time.

Essential we make the most of what we can.  Redevelopment is an option and I seem to think that very early in the tenure of 1878 Pettit noted that (or Stockwood referenced it) an area of his expertise is utilising limited space in such situations like this.  To my limited knowledge we don't have anyone frequent this board who's got that level of insight, skills or experience.  It could well be that it's not unfeasible to do some very clever and creative adjustments to turn BP into something very sustainable for the future.

What I do know is that redevelopment doesn't happen overnight.  Nor in the course of a summer.  Any redeveloping or rebuilding of individual stands will take time and it will have to done bit-by-bit.  The costs for this will still be exceptionally high.  Playing crudely with figures but if we decided to rebuild the Main Stand, for example, that's a quarter of your capacity gone for a season.  Now of course once that's rebuilt you would hope that it holds a good portion more, so when you come onto rebuild, lets say, the Pontoon the reduction is a lower percentage of your capacity.  By the time you come to the final stand, it's comparatively minimal to first phase.  

But to start off with, whichever stand we redevelop first, we would be left with about 6,000 capacity as a maximum.  Our recent bar is there or there abouts anyway.  Last season it was felt that if it the gate dipped below 6,000 it was a low gate. As we strive to improve, I think need to stick to that as a minimum.  If we do redevelop, I would hope that some sort of temp seating is in place where possible to reduce the number of lost seats.

When it comes to a corporate offer, we're not even as good as inadequate.  The staff do their best with what they've got but they're swimming against a rip-tide.  Again, if redevelopment happens then the first 'new' stand needs to have the flagship corporate functions in there so we can play catch-up as soon as possible.

I would genuinely love to know what 1878's thoughts and plans are on the future in terms of how we navigate this very tough position.  Fully appreciate they're near certain to not share that for the time.

Good post. Temp seats in the Constitutional and Imperial Ave corners could go a fair way to offsetting the loss of seats if The Main was redeveloped and then The Main would be ready for whatever was going to happen on the other side of the ground.

Another option could be safe standing and that would offer us a lot more capacity.

Quoted from aldi_01

It’s a genuine question but how many people do we ‘turn away’ each home game?

We heard all last season there were loads being turned away yet it never seemed more than a handful of fans who had a mate of a mate who couldn’t get a ticket…

Several times I couldn't get tickets with my brother or a mate (depending who I was coming with) so we didn't bother.

There are a lot that won't go because of poor views , my dad and brother went to the first couple but after being situated behind a post one game and back of the main another ,said they would not bother unless they got better seats .

It does not take a lot for the less hardcore fans to have an excuse to 'leave it ' without an easy yes .

Quoted from OddShapedBalls

Crazy idea - rip down the Findus, expand it outwards into the car park, make it wider so it goes to the Ponny and the Osmond, stick some huge sparkly new changing rooms at basement level on that side with a basement car park for the club officials and then have a stonking great hospitality set up, along with club shop and more food/drink outlets across ground floor and 2nd (or even a third tier!). Solves the changing room issues, the corporate issues, the land issues (maybe) and creates more seats in general. All the money making bits taken care of in this 1st phase means it can pay itself off quicker and then allow a rebuild of the next stand in turn etc

Bring on the red crosses!

Crazy idea or not that car park indeed gives us scope to do all sorts? Obviously, an architect could look at the entire footprint of BP and come up with something really special and in the order it should be tackled, and lets hope next season goes as well as we hope to get the ground and what we can do with it up the agenda.

What a thrill it would be to see some workable plans in place for an improved BP or new stadium, whichever is likely to happen first.

We have issues with the UF, never mind the oldest wooden stand in the country   This stand is likely to be nearly full every game.  The congestion around the Trust bar, refreshments area is potentially dangerous.  Everyone going through 1 set of double doors.

Luton are building a new £10 million stand, replacing an old stand.  They want to do this and have it in place for the start of the coming season.

No idea how or if they can do this. Maybe lessons for us in the future?

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

Rebuilding BP is possible, Brentford's new ground was built on a very small parcel of land, but it's the balance between the added expense of that and the cost of a new piece of land with easier access and far fewer restrictions. And the loss of income to the club while chunks of the ground are closed off for building.

Brentford is certainly the best example of a fine new stadium built on a very sub-optimal piece of land, and in many ways is a modern interpretation of old school grounds like Blundell Park.

I've said previously that you could not build a new ground of meaningful size on the site of BP without purchasing and razing at least some of the surrounding houses, which has significant cost-implications and complexities associated with it, not to mention is morrally questionable (see Liverpool's expansion of Anfield). However, I superimposed Brentford's community over the boundaries of Blundell Park (including parking spaces), at scale, and it's perhaps not as far out as I had thought. Brentford's ground holds 17,250, so could you realistically build something similar in style of between 12,000 and 14,000? Probably, with the requisite architectural skill and a concession or two over the odd quirky design element (the likes of which Brentford's stadium isn't completely without).

[img]https://i.ibb.co/DpWqVJL/bfc-stad.png[/img]
Interesting though this is, the only real hurdle it solves is that it removes the need to find a new site. The bigger challenges of planning permission and much more pertinently finance would still loom just as large. It would perhaps offer the option of doing things in more modular fashion which may ease (or at least spread) the financial burden, but that comes with it's own headaches and risks (how do you accommodate the lost capacity in the interim, what if it never gets finished?).

But it is at least an option. How long is the realistic shelf life of the Main Stand and the Osmond? In their current guise, you'd imagine less than a decade. Even with some significant material improvements to their fundamental structures, is it realistic that they are hosting fans in 2043? I very much doubt it.

There are some monumental financial hurdles to climb amidst an unpredictable economic landscape, but as someone who has tended to pour cold water on the chances of a new ground (in any form), the steady rate at which the club is now moving forward at least gives me a modicum of hope that it could happen at some point in the foreseeable future. Not in the next 5 years, but somewhere in the window of 5 to 15 years, I feel we might just see something come to fruition.

Quoted from OddShapedBalls

Crazy idea - rip down the Findus, expand it outwards into the car park, make it wider so it goes to the Ponny and the Osmond, stick some huge sparkly new changing rooms at basement level on that side with a basement car park for the club officials and then have a stonking great hospitality set up, along with club shop and more food/drink outlets across ground floor and 2nd (or even a third tier!). Solves the changing room issues, the corporate issues, the land issues (maybe) and creates more seats in general. All the money making bits taken care of in this 1st phase means it can pay itself off quicker and then allow a rebuild of the next stand in turn etc

Bring on the red crosses!

I think some of that might be a little bit crazy but not totally unheard of. I'm sure Monaco have a car park underneath their stadium.

The part I like is ensuring the more functional and 'in-need' improvements would be done first in this hypothetical redevelopment of BP. It's nothing short of common sense when written or said out loud, but in truth I'd not really considered at which point the corporate side or anything like that was factored in, more simply - get some more seats and make it look nice.

If you said that we'd need to sacrifice some houses to redevelop BP but with minimal disruption, I think you'd be looking at the end few houses near the Findus to extend the length of the pitch. Sorry if you happen to live there, but its for the greater good!  

As you suggested, I think that then gives you the chance to nearly double the capacity of that stand. Creative planners would no doubt be able to figure out how to merge the new and old into one seamless piece with increased corporate etc if you didn't simply knock it down and build again.

Will stop at this point because the mind runs away and I get all excited about something that is highly unlikely inside the next 10 years. I suppose for the moment what we hope is that the team keep doing well, the demand keeps increasing as does the pressure to do something.

Quoted from gtfc_chris

If you said that we'd need to sacrifice some houses to redevelop BP but with minimal disruption, I think you'd be looking at the end few houses near the Findus to extend the length of the pitch. Sorry if you happen to live there, but its for the greater good!  

The greater good...

Quoted from Poojah

Brentford is certainly the best example of a fine new stadium built on a very sub-optimal piece of land, and in many ways is a modern interpretation of old school grounds like Blundell Park.

I've said previously that you could not build a new ground of meaningful size on the site of BP without purchasing and razing at least some of the surrounding houses, which has significant cost-implications and complexities associated with it, not to mention is morrally questionable (see Liverpool's expansion of Anfield). However, I superimposed Brentford's community over the boundaries of Blundell Park (including parking spaces), at scale, and it's perhaps not as far out as I had thought. Brentford's ground holds 17,250, so could you realistically build something similar in style of between 12,000 and 14,000? Probably, with the requisite architectural skill and a concession or two over the odd quirky design element (the likes of which Brentford's stadium isn't completely without).

[img]https://i.ibb.co/DpWqVJL/bfc-stad.png[/img]
Interesting though this is, the only real hurdle it solves is that it removes the need to find a new site. The bigger challenges of planning permission and much more pertinently finance would still loom just as large. It would perhaps offer the option of doing things in more modular fashion which may ease (or at least spread) the financial burden, but that comes with it's own headaches and risks (how do you accommodate the lost capacity in the interim, what if it never gets finished?).

But it is at least an option. How long is the realistic shelf life of the Main Stand and the Osmond? In their current guise, you'd imagine less than a decade. Even with some significant material improvements to their fundamental structures, is it realistic that they are hosting fans in 2043? I very much doubt it.

There are some monumental financial hurdles to climb amidst an unpredictable economic landscape, but as someone who has tended to pour cold water on the chances of a new ground (in any form), the steady rate at which the club is now moving forward at least gives me a modicum of hope that it could happen at some point in the foreseeable future. Not in the next 5 years, but somewhere in the window of 5 to 15 years, I feel we might just see something come to fruition.

Chelsea have an underground car park for staff and players, it's literally under the pitch.

Quoted from Heswall Mariner

Tony Butcher - as always - has come up with an excellent article on Cod Almighty.
Can't download onto here but well worth a read on his insight into the finances of 3 clubs in our sphere.

It is no doubt an unpopular opinion, but the conclusion of this article is totally flawed, saying that the solution is to keep finding people to inject more equity into the club and to run the club at a loss every year.  That means that if new investors can't be found, the club has to painfully cut its costs (ie reduce the squad and/ or the quality of the squad) and experience a rapid drop down the leagues.

There are only two reasons people will invest in a club like GTFC.  Either they love the club and/ or they think they will make a financial return.  They won't make a financial return if the club never becomes financially sustainable and there's only a limited number of high wealth people who support Town.

The current owners aren't mega wealthy but are willing to invest to turn the club around and help it become sustainable and I'm sure they will do that, hopefully taking us to a higher level along the way.  However, they don't fall into the 'more money than sense' category who will splurge for a short while, lose interest and leave the club on its knees.

I think we do also need to consider the impact of future sea level rises - though that's true of the whole flipping town! How high will the sea defences need to be built in the new few decades?

Quoted from Maringer

I think we do also need to consider the impact of future sea level rises - though that's true of the whole flipping town! How high will the sea defences need to be built in the new few decades?

Our teacher told us confidently in 1960 that Grimsby would be under water by 1970. Scared me to death it did!

Quoted from LondonMariner43

It is no doubt an unpopular opinion, but the conclusion of this article is totally flawed, saying that the solution is to keep finding people to inject more equity into the club and to run the club at a loss every year.  That means that if new investors can't be found, the club has to painfully cut its costs (ie reduce the squad and/ or the quality of the squad) and experience a rapid drop down the leagues.

There are only two reasons people will invest in a club like GTFC.  Either they love the club and/ or they think they will make a financial return.  They won't make a financial return if the club never becomes financially sustainable and there's only a limited number of high wealth people who support Town.

The current owners aren't mega wealthy but are willing to invest to turn the club around and help it become sustainable and I'm sure they will do that, hopefully taking us to a higher level along the way.  However, they don't fall into the 'more money than sense' category who will splurge for a short while, lose interest and leave the club on its knees.

Christ we just had 20 years of somebody trying  to run the club at at relatively break even model (albeit badly ).

Unfortunately in the modern game ,as it is now , to compete even at league 2 level needs a decent amount of investment ; otherwise you get left behind /relegated the majority of the time .

I think Petit and Stockwood hope better regulation will improve things but time will tell.

I wrote an article on the subject of BP's capacity last season — basically saying 'seats sold' is the figure we should be looking at, not 'attendances'.

JS kept saying they weren't looking at expanding BP because we weren't selling out. We don't sell out, if you look at attendances. We're always way short of the 9,000 capacity BP has (according to DC).

But a fair portion of that 9,000 will never be sold because of the restricted views. I'd rather not go, than pay and see half the pitch.

And then there are those who buy seats i.e. season ticket holders, and don't show up. Generally speaking, across the board at every club, 8-10% of seats sold don't get sat in because of illness, weddings, stag/hen dos, birthdays, holidays, work, etc.

That's why our 'sell-outs' usually come in at somewhere around 7,600.

And the problem here is one that's already been pointed out on this thread by various people. After STH, the remaining tickets available are dotted about. A few hundred will have decent views, but they're not together — so someone like me, who lives away and can only make half a dozen home matches, can't get 3 or 4 tickets together (because when I do make it back, I want to make a proper day of it and go with friends, etc).

I think we absolutely must look at increasing BP's capacity today. We can't keen spurning energy and wasting money on a new ground.

I'm not an expert - I'll leave that to the likes of AP - but the initial outlay of filling in the corners, adding another 1k onto the capacity, creating more options where groups of fans can attend together, is going to generate more revenue on match days.

Surely that's got to be an ambition? We've got to start doing something, otherwise we're missing out on bigger attendances. There's no doubt in my mind that had our capacity been bigger last season, our average attendance would have been greater than it was.

Can never prove this, of course, but I'd have gone to more matches, as would many others by the sounds of it. So, in short, we are turning away fans. Not in a calculated way, but in an incidental way.

Yeh I honestly can’t believe this isn’t something they had lined up & ready to go immediately at the point it looked like STs would be hitting similar numbers to last year.

Maybe they have? Who knows. Would be ridiculous if they’re still umming & aahing over it at this point though.

Quoted from ska face

Yeh I honestly can’t believe this isn’t something they had lined up & ready to go immediately at the point it looked like STs would be hitting similar numbers to last year.

Maybe they have? Who knows. Would be ridiculous if they’re still umming & aahing over it at this point though.

Yep, temp seats in the corners look like a winner to me but I have no idea of costs and the hoops you probably have to jump through. It can't be that much though or Fenty would never have done it.

Maybe temp seats is the fabled marquee signing that's due to happen before the start of the season.

Stockwood to pull back a massive white sheet off the old green seats between two of the stands ahead of the Hull friendly, the shape giving away the content in the same way a badly wrapped bicycle does on Christmas morning.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Maybe temp seats is the fabled marquee signing that's due to happen before the start of the season.

Stockwood to pull back a massive white sheet off the old green seats between two of the stands ahead of the Hull friendly, the shape giving away the content in the same way a badly wrapped bicycle does on Christmas morning.

And 1500 people looking disappointed and saying 'but we wanted a striker...'

"They've only scored 4 in 29 at FakeFest at the Meridian Showground."

Will anyone in the lower leagues sell out their grounds when the new TV package for league clubs starts in a season or 2. Isn’t there a proposal that all games will be televised but will be pay to view. If this is correct apart from your absolute hard core of fans who must be at the game I can see the majority watching from home, especially on a cold wet Tuesday night in December.

Quoted from diehardmariner

"They've only scored 4 in 29 at FakeFest at the Meridian Showground."

Boo, no league experience

Quoted from OddShapedBalls

Crazy idea - rip down the Findus, expand it outwards into the car park, make it wider so it goes to the Ponny and the Osmond, stick some huge sparkly new changing rooms at basement level on that side with a basement car park for the club officials and then have a stonking great hospitality set up, along with club shop and more food/drink outlets across ground floor and 2nd (or even a third tier!). Solves the changing room issues, the corporate issues, the land issues (maybe) and creates more seats in general. All the money making bits taken care of in this 1st phase means it can pay itself off quicker and then allow a rebuild of the next stand in turn etc

Bring on the red crosses!

Between Blundell Avenue & Neville Street there are 20 houses, at an inflated price of £100,000 per property thats a huge parcel of land for two million pounds. Could build an amazing stand on there to redevelop the main stand to give us everything we need capacity wise, in time develop the Osmond stand and eventually fill in the pontoon corners

Quoted from Simon

Between Blundell Avenue & Neville Street there are 20 houses, at an inflated price of £100,000 per property thats a huge parcel of land for two million pounds. Could build an amazing stand on there to redevelop the main stand to give us everything we need capacity wise, in time develop the Osmond stand and eventually fill in the pontoon corners

All it needs is 20 people to give up their family homes. And planning permission to flatten them.

Quoted from Gaffer58

Will anyone in the lower leagues sell out their grounds when the new TV package for league clubs starts in a season or 2. Isn’t there a proposal that all games will be televised but will be pay to view. If this is correct apart from your absolute hard core of fans who must be at the game I can see the majority watching from home, especially on a cold wet Tuesday night in December.

By which theory football attendances in this country would be decreasing as more and more football is available on TV.

However...

[img]https://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/nav/grattnengleague.gif[/img]

https://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/nav/attnengleague.htm

We're now at post-WWII levels of average attendances across the top four divisions of the English game, despite having more TV on offer than ever before.  In the fourth tier it's at levels last seen consistently in the late 1950's, again absolutely sod all on offer on the box then, both in terms of football in general.

Football is an anomaly.  Despite an ever growing and increasingly saturated entertainment market, with increased demands on our wallets and attention, attendances at football games continue to grow.  

I think once the new deal comes in it might have the potential to impact on the odd Tuesday night game in shite November conditions.  But the majority of games won't be affected at all, if anything it's gaining more exposure for the game (at all levels) which seems to be helping in increasing gate receipts.

Like many others, I have accepted that we will not move from BP unless a sugar daddy appears. So we are left with the redevelopment of BP. which will take money and time.

Given that 1878 have said the main development is the new training ground, I think we will have to wait longer than we think for the redevelopment of BP.

Quoted from DB

Like many others, I have accepted that we will not move from BP unless a sugar daddy appears. So we are left with the redevelopment of BP. which will take money and time.

Given that 1878 have said the main development is the new training ground, I think we will have to wait longer than we think for the redevelopment of BP.

Probably we will but we will need extra seats in the meantime, and even if we know the direction of travel it would be exciting.

The only substantial changes I have seen in 60 years is the Findus stand being built and the change to all seater.

Well overdue a revamp!

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Probably we will but we will need extra seats in the meantime, and even if we know the direction of travel it would be exciting.

The only substantial changes I have seen in 60 years is the Findus stand being built and the change to all seater.

Well overdue a revamp!

Meanwhile in Nottingham…

https://twitter.com/Official_NCFC/status/1677384435111436292

Quoted from Poojah

Meanwhile in Nottingham…

https://twitter.com/Official_NCFC/status/1677384435111436292

Imagine the day when the announcements in the Pontoon don’t sound like they are being delivered underwater.

Quoted from aldi_01

I


I’d imagine that many a discussion has taken place regarding a redevelopment of BP, and whilst some armchair experts seem to obsess over BP being knackered and seem to have some insider made up knowledge about safety certificates etc, I think there’s genuine suggestions probably being made about BP.

I don't think you need to be an armchair expert or have made up insider knowledge to know BP is a bit knackered, the main stand in particular- stockwood is on record as having said its been assessed and HAS to have 300k spent on it, there's no choice. That sounds like a safety certificate issue to me, or maybe EFL standards that have to be reached, which is effectively the same thing.

We can only go on for so long tarting up the main stand - at some point we have to either move or, much more likely, rebuild it.

Quoted from toontown

I don't think you need to be an armchair expert or have made up insider knowledge to know BP is a bit knackered, the main stand in particular- stockwood is on record as having said its been assessed and HAS to have 300k spent on it, there's no choice. That sounds like a safety certificate issue to me, or maybe EFL standards that have to be reached, which is effectively the same thing.

We can only go on for so long tarting up the main stand - at some point we have to either move or, much more likely, rebuild it.

you say it HAS to be done but the club decided not to do it in the end and I presume they still got the certificate,

Quoted from Rob_in_Grimsby

you say it HAS to be done but the club decided not to do it in the end and I presume they still got the certificate,

Let's hope that means they have a longer term plan for it then in the pipeline.

Quoted from Gaffer58

Will anyone in the lower leagues sell out their grounds when the new TV package for league clubs starts in a season or 2. Isn’t there a proposal that all games will be televised but will be pay to view. If this is correct apart from your absolute hard core of fans who must be at the game I can see the majority watching from home, especially on a cold wet Tuesday night in December.

Let's be honest. It doesn't take a genius to be able to do that now *for free.

Quoted from Poojah

Brentford is certainly the best example of a fine new stadium built on a very sub-optimal piece of land, and in many ways is a modern interpretation of old school grounds like Blundell Park.

I've said previously that you could not build a new ground of meaningful size on the site of BP without purchasing and razing at least some of the surrounding houses, which has significant cost-implications and complexities associated with it, not to mention is morrally questionable (see Liverpool's expansion of Anfield). However, I superimposed Brentford's community over the boundaries of Blundell Park (including parking spaces), at scale, and it's perhaps not as far out as I had thought. Brentford's ground holds 17,250, so could you realistically build something similar in style of between 12,000 and 14,000? Probably, with the requisite architectural skill and a concession or two over the odd quirky design element (the likes of which Brentford's stadium isn't completely without).

[img]https://i.ibb.co/DpWqVJL/bfc-stad.png[/img]
Interesting though this is, the only real hurdle it solves is that it removes the need to find a new site. The bigger challenges of planning permission and much more pertinently finance would still loom just as large. It would perhaps offer the option of doing things in more modular fashion which may ease (or at least spread) the financial burden, but that comes with it's own headaches and risks (how do you accommodate the lost capacity in the interim, what if it never gets finished?).

But it is at least an option. How long is the realistic shelf life of the Main Stand and the Osmond? In their current guise, you'd imagine less than a decade. Even with some significant material improvements to their fundamental structures, is it realistic that they are hosting fans in 2043? I very much doubt it.

There are some monumental financial hurdles to climb amidst an unpredictable economic landscape, but as someone who has tended to pour cold water on the chances of a new ground (in any form), the steady rate at which the club is now moving forward at least gives me a modicum of hope that it could happen at some point in the foreseeable future. Not in the next 5 years, but somewhere in the window of 5 to 15 years, I feel we might just see something come to fruition.

I'm not an architect, but know that they are innovative people.  If I let my creative side out of its box, I can imagine the steelwork frame for a new stand being erected around the main stand before / during the season (not match days obviously), leaving the old stand intact and usable for the season.  At the end of the season there would be over three months available to demolish the old stand, and fit out the seating in the new stand.

I don't know if this approach would be feasible, but could be worth taking a look at?

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

All it needs is 20 people to give up their family homes. And planning permission to flatten them.

Would snap your hand off market value plus 20%

Quoted from pizzzza

The greater good...

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few

Quoted from Rob_in_Grimsby

you say it HAS to be done but the club decided not to do it in the end and I presume they still got the certificate,

I stand corrected but I thought they said it had to be done just they were hoping they could delay it for a bit. I believe they mentioned the possible monies from the negotiations with premier league and the expectation some of this might be reserved for submissions for ground improvements and similar.

Quoted from Captain Sensible

I'm not an architect, but know that they are innovative people.  If I let my creative side out of its box, I can imagine the steelwork frame for a new stand being erected around the main stand before / during the season (not match days obviously), leaving the old stand intact and usable for the season.  At the end of the season there would be over three months available to demolish the old stand, and fit out the seating in the new stand.

I don't know if this approach would be feasible, but could be worth taking a look at?

They’ve done pretty much just that with the two recently expanded stands at Anfield, but there they were able to build the frame of the expansion behind and eventually over the existing structure before completing the remainder of the works in the closed season (Liverpool are due to play their first few games away from home to allow them extra time to complete the work).

They were only able to do that having bought up the houses originally behind the stands, with some controversy about they tactics used in order to do so. Even then, and with Liverpool’s resources, it was a lengthy exercise.

Assuming we didn’t intend to do that, you could only build upon the existing footprint of the Pontoon, Main and Osmond Stands, meaning each stand would have to be demolished first (and I’m not sure whether you could demolish the Main Stand and Osmond at different intervals given they are essentially the same, very old structure).

You could do something as you describe with the Findus stand though, if you build atop the existing car park. That would enable you to build something akin to Brentford’s South Stand, only with a more pronounced / elongated drop in roofline and seating profile.

[img]https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article22628626.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/0_AGP_MDM_030920BRENTFORD_020JPG.jpg[/img]
[img]https://resources.evertonfc.com/photo-resources/2021/11/26/a7ea0234-bdc3-4044-8271-81634d2ca11e/GettyImages-1342448504.jpg?width=800&height=450[/img]
[img]https://i.ibb.co/DpWqVJL/bfc-stad.png[/img]

Quoted from Madeleymariner

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few

Unfortunately, the voices of the few will crank up when they discover Guatemalan purple striped glow in the dark albino furred three headed sea woodlice in their back garden!

Quoted from Poojah

They’ve done pretty much just that with the two recently expanded stands at Anfield, but there they were able to build the frame of the expansion behind and eventually over the existing structure before completing the remainder of the works in the closed season (Liverpool are due to play their first few games away from home to allow them extra time to complete the work).

They were only able to do that having bought up the houses originally behind the stands, with some controversy about they tactics used in order to do so. Even then, and with Liverpool’s resources, it was a lengthy exercise.

Assuming we didn’t intend to do that, you could only build upon the existing footprint of the Pontoon, Main and Osmond Stands, meaning each stand would have to be demolished first (and I’m not sure whether you could demolish the Main Stand and Osmond at different intervals given they are essentially the same, very old structure).

You could do something as you describe with the Findus stand though, if you build atop the existing car park. That would enable you to build something akin to Brentford’s South Stand, only with a more pronounced / elongated drop in roofline and seating profile.

[img]https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article22628626.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/0_AGP_MDM_030920BRENTFORD_020JPG.jpg[/img]
[img]https://resources.evertonfc.com/photo-resources/2021/11/26/a7ea0234-bdc3-4044-8271-81634d2ca11e/GettyImages-1342448504.jpg?width=800&height=450[/img]
[img]https://i.ibb.co/DpWqVJL/bfc-stad.png[/img]

That's interesting thank you.  I didn't know about Liverpool.  I thought I was probably spouting nonsense!  

Quoted from Captain Sensible

That's interesting thank you.  I didn't know about Liverpool.  I thought I was probably spouting nonsense!  

Not at all mate, sound thinking. Here’s a photo of the Anfield Road end before, during and (almost) after construction, for reference:

[img]https://i2-prod.liverpoolecho.co.uk/incoming/article12429271.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/Liverpool-FC-Anfield-stadium-in-2010.jpg[/img]
[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQHEyPTWI7TzDyXRRckZv-9t1b0SMWYWPG5OA&usqp=CAU[/img]
[img]https://cdn-vox--cdn-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/wVftzJ4ByIAOgVdr44f1lNjlPqM=/0x0:1440x960/1400x933/filters:focal(605x365:835x595):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/71168852/AFR_Truss_Lift_7.0.jpg[/img]
[img]https://backend.liverpoolfc.com/sites/default/files/styles/xl/public/acquiadam/2023-03/anfield-road-update-09032023-4.jpg?itok=WjGUJgWJ[/img]
[img]https://i2-prod.liverpoolecho.co.uk/incoming/article27141854.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/0_LFC.jpg[/img]

As is probably obvious, the houses toward the front and right of the original image were bought up and razed to the ground to facilitate the expansion.