Baker is everything that is wrong with the Conservative Party so heaven help us all if he somehow gets the nod.
Chair of the European Research Group which understood and never tried to understand anything about Europe. Note the disingenuous naming for the group. Deputy Chair of the Covid Recovery Group which wanted to bypass the government's scientific advisors and was desperate for lockdown to be avoided in December 2020 (thousands of deaths a day and the potential collapse of the health system unimportant, apparently). Doesn't believe in climate change (despite the massed evidence), possibly because he's a born again Christian and many of these type of folk have peculiar views. Regardless, he's a trustee of the Global Warming Policy Foundation, a pretend charity which is secretly funded, almost certainly by big oil in the US from what limited evidence has been uncovered. Needless to say, he favours burning more gas (probably because he thinks God put it there for us to use). Economically, he thinks we should go back to the Gold Standard, which shows he understands even less about the economy than the rest of his party and is as whacky as they come.
On the basis that I want the Tories out at the next election then I'd say Liz Truss for a couple of years should be enough for people to realise a change in party has to happen.
On the basis that I want the Tories out at the next election then I'd say Liz Truss for a couple of years should be enough for people to realise a change in party has to happen.
The only problem is that we'd probably be left with little more than a smoking crater after she'd been in charge for a couple of years. This is the woman in charge of operating our Foreign policy at present:
Relegated from europe, no ministers left, there's only one man to call on to get them back playing proper policies and trade agreements in a 4-4-2 cabinet - Alan Buckley
Asked if he always told the truth when he represented the government on the broadcast rounds, and believed what he had been told by the prime minister, he added: “I trusted what I was being told.
“It turns out some of the things I was told - and I said this quite clearly in Parliament when I made my statement - didn’t turn out to be true.
“Now, I don’t know why someone would have said something to me that wasn’t true. That’s a question for them. But I trusted what I was told.”
TLDR: Javid: ‘I am not a liar but I am thick, I am gullible and I will believe anything anyone tells me’
I think we go for a mid-ranker and show inclusivity for those with speech impediments - it's got to be Woy Hodgson, and his WarWammer experience will be good for the Ukraine situation...
It's now had to be edited as Johnnie Peacock does not want his image used by a party who have cut or stopped so many peoples disability benefit, plus it included footage of convicted murderer Oscar Pistorius.
"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
It's now had to be edited as Johnnie Peacock does not want his image used by a party who have cut or stopped so many peoples disability benefit, plus it included footage of convicted murderer Oscar Pistorius.
Self promotion with little substance and even less research.
Does this Union Jack bollox still fly with the electorate?
There’s not even a least worst option so far - all of them are bad in their own unique way. Just put a respected backbencher in caretaker charge until the next election cause they surely won’t win that. Avoid WWIII is the main target between now and then.
His wife has said she will no longer be a non-dom (i.e. will pay UK tax on more income), but from what has been said (or hasn't been said), they could have an offshore trust set up in a particular way which would mean they could avoid as much as £100 million inheritance tax (at current rates and valuations).
Will be interesting to see if any comment is made on this.
There’s not even a least worst option so far - all of them are bad in their own unique way. Just put a respected backbencher in caretaker charge until the next election cause they surely won’t win that. Avoid WWIII is the main target between now and then.
Can we pay a transfer fee - Jacinda Ardern on a 3-year deal please...
Can we pay a transfer fee - Jacinda Ardern on a 3-year deal please...
Neigh lad!
Authoritarian nutcase will go down in history as the worst New Zealand PM ever. approval rating at an all time low, heading for recession, locked the Country down excessively and obsessively but now begging us Brits to go take a holiday there😂
Authoritarian nutcase will go down in history as the worst New Zealand PM ever. approval rating at an all time low, heading for recession, locked the Country down excessively and obsessively but now begging us Brits to go take a holiday there😂
Unfortunately, she narrowly failed to get cannabis legalised, as the hysterical right waded in with their scare stories, contrary to all proper scientific medical opinion. As Canada has proved, sometimes you just have to act, on the basis of proper scientific expert opinion, and public opinion will follow as the scare stories prove unfounded. Kind of the anthesis of Brexit really.
I worry that we may get another but different kind of nutter to Boris, a more scary one, not just a liar and buffoon. Someone who is actually quite competent in a ruthless and extremist kind of way, like Patel hope she doesn't declare just in case she wins. Then we have the climate change denier backed by a sky-fairy fascist - Braverman and Baker, my word what a pair of nutters.
Unfortunately, she narrowly failed to get cannabis legalised, as the hysterical right waded in with their scare stories, contrary to all proper scientific medical opinion. As Canada has proved, sometimes you just have to act, on the basis of proper scientific expert opinion, and public opinion will follow as the scare stories prove unfounded. Kind of the anthesis of Brexit really.
I worry that we may get another but different kind of nutter to Boris, a more scary one, not just a liar and buffoon. Someone who is actually quite competent in a ruthless and extremist kind of way, like Patel hope she doesn't declare just in case she wins. Then we have the climate change denier backed by a sky-fairy fascist - Braverman and Baker, my word what a pair of nutters.
You say that you worry Limerick if the wrong person gets in, so who exactly is the right person? Or are you on the fishy bully bandwagon just waiting to go for the throat who ever gets, in because they’re a Tory?
You say that you worry Limerick if the wrong person gets in, so who exactly is the right person? Or are you on the fishy bully bandwagon just waiting to go for the throat who ever gets, in because they’re a Tory?
I don't have a pathological hatred of all Tories, but the Conservative party has kicked out most who I would want leader of the country. But Corbyn is almost as culpable for the mess we are in, the Labour party typically engineer a major act of self-harm every so often. They couldn't have actually have better enabled the insertion of a buffoon clown Tory leader if they had tried. Liberals as well, Jo Swinson was away with the fairies. I would have been comfortable with Rory Stewart or even Ken Clarke for a while - actually you can have a Lord as PM can't you - there you go - my candidate preference is Baron Clarke of Nottingham
I get regular e-mails from Quora Digest. I think this may be of interest:-
The Back stabbing Tories. Answered by Edwyn Nicholson Updated Mar 26 Who has been the most competent prime minister of post-war Britain? 🤔🤔🤔🤔
I am going to give a controversial answer for this space
I am going to pick a Labour Prime Minister who would probably (in many ways) be far more at home in the Tory Party of Boris Johnson than in the Labour Party of Kier Starmer.
Clement Attlee.
Created the NHS. Created the modern Welfare State. Introduced planning permission and the modern Listed Buildings System. Introduced Britain's first protected landscapes. Accelerated Decolonisation. Co-founded NATO. Restarted Britain's nuclear weapons programme. Send troops to fight Communism in Korea and Malaysia. Established the Festival of Britain. Kept the UK out of the nascent EU (the ECSC). Look at that list of achievements.
Specifically look at the last five.
What was left-wing then would be considered right-wing by many today.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
I voted tory for many years, never again. The short term fixes again and again. Not one of em can give a straight answer. Most who advocated remain, where given ministerial post then changed tact. TRUSS is a prime example. I totally fail to see how anyone could ever vote for 90% of those vying for PM. They have ruined our country and unless a drastic change occurs this country is fuxxxed for the next lots of years. Brexit has plunged the £ against the $ to its lowest level in years, hence high fuel prices. The rich get richer thanks to Sunak who gave bankers 7billion pound tax breaks. Worried about fuel and food? They aren't, take a look at parliament cheap menu. Have a look at the profits of major industries as they are soaring, so much for trickle down economics.
The biggest bunch of cretins to run or should I say ruin this country that there has even been, and there's been some crap ones.
Utter nonsense about those decisions being inherently right-wing.
We didn't need to restart our nuclear weapons programme. We never stopped developing them and assisted the Yanks with the Manhattan Project a fair amount:
It also ran alongside our development of Nuclear power (plutonium for our bombs was 'secretly' being produced in the civilian reactors at Windscale). We were actually pioneers in the field of Nuclear power, but successive governments shut it down to the extent that we don't have the scientific expertise or manufacturing capacity to build our own power stations any longer.
The Red Peril was a real thing straight after the war - the Soviet Union had destroyed most of the German army to ensure their defeat and the country was still on a major war footing. There was serious concern that the Soviet tanks would just keep rolling across Europe but the existence of nuclear weapons probably helped to stop that, as did the hasty formation of NATO. The proxy wars in Korea and Malaysia (and the later attempts in Vietnam) were intended to stop Communism from spreading.
Festival of Britain - populist, certainly, but not perhaps a bad idea given all that the country had endured during the war years.
Was keeping the UK out of the ECSC a good thing? Dunno, really. We were one of the world's major manufacturing powers back in those days so might have been the correct choice at the time, but I don't really know. We did eventually join the EC, of course, and benefitted from it greatly, especially in the years after the creation of the single market.
Utter nonsense about those decisions being inherently right-wing.
We didn't need to restart our nuclear weapons programme. We never stopped developing them and assisted the Yanks with the Manhattan Project a fair amount:
It also ran alongside our development of Nuclear power (plutonium for our bombs was 'secretly' being produced in the civilian reactors at Windscale). We were actually pioneers in the field of Nuclear power, but successive governments shut it down to the extent that we don't have the scientific expertise or manufacturing capacity to build our own power stations any longer.
The Red Peril was a real thing straight after the war - the Soviet Union had destroyed most of the German army to ensure their defeat and the country was still on a major war footing. There was serious concern that the Soviet tanks would just keep rolling across Europe but the existence of nuclear weapons probably helped to stop that, as did the hasty formation of NATO. The proxy wars in Korea and Malaysia (and the later attempts in Vietnam) were intended to stop Communism from spreading.
Festival of Britain - populist, certainly, but not perhaps a bad idea given all that the country had endured during the war years.
Was keeping the UK out of the ECSC a good thing? Dunno, really. We were one of the world's major manufacturing powers back in those days so might have been the correct choice at the time, but I don't really know. We did eventually join the EC, of course, and benefitted from it greatly, especially in the years after the creation of the single market.
We don't know the full impact of our loss of access to the Single Market yet. A recent Economist article put the damage estimate at 4% of GDP but this could be a big underestimate if there is a huge shift to a green economy and we are outside it, especially if the Single Market introduces a carbon border tariff.
You'd have to think that Braverman ought to have just about peaked with that total. There are a lot of dim Tory MPs, but there surely can't be too many who are seriously dim enough to think she would make a competent PM. Zahawi too much baggage with the current offshore investigations (and questions about offshoring may do for Sunak as well).
Surprised that Hunt was booted at the first round because he always seemed one of the more reasonable candidates. Probably too reasonable for Tory MPs, or perhaps he's just not curried favour with enough of them?
I suppose Tugendhat is the 'reasonable' candidate along with Mordaunt - noticeable that neither has much of a record of doing anything in government so they aren't linked with failure yet.
I think the Tory MPs see any women candidates as potential vote-winners, because they can make a lot of noise about Labour never having a female leader. You'd have to think this is why so many utterly unsuitable female candidates are in the race, despite the fact that Tory MPs have a 4:1 male/female ratio.
It would be interesting to see how the Tory membership voted if given the choice between a white and a non-white candidate. Suspect we might not have the opportunity to find out this time if they try and stitch up Sunak. The fact that the Daily Heil is so much against him indicates something.
Does this Union Jack bollox still fly with the electorate?
Via my parents I've got mainly English, Spanish and Irish blood in me.
I don't identify with one country 100% but have a bit love for all of them. I can understand it though when people are patriots and love their country. Think of the football world cups and the flag waving there. Likewise Frances world cup 1998 win galvanised a nation after tensions with differing cultures and ethnicitys. I saw the same happen when Spain won the world cup in 2010. People that identified as separatists in Catalonia were swept up in temporary collective euphoria after seeing Spain win their first world cup which was good to see.
You'd have to think that Braverman ought to have just about peaked with that total. There are a lot of dim Tory MPs, but there surely can't be too many who are seriously dim enough to think she would make a competent PM. Zahawi too much baggage with the current offshore investigations (and questions about offshoring may do for Sunak as well).
Surprised that Hunt was booted at the first round because he always seemed one of the more reasonable candidates. Probably too reasonable for Tory MPs, or perhaps he's just not curried favour with enough of them?
I suppose Tugendhat is the 'reasonable' candidate along with Mordaunt - noticeable that neither has much of a record of doing anything in government so they aren't linked with failure yet.
I think the Tory MPs see any women candidates as potential vote-winners, because they can make a lot of noise about Labour never having a female leader. You'd have to think this is why so many utterly unsuitable female candidates are in the race, despite the fact that Tory MPs have a 4:1 male/female ratio.
It would be interesting to see how the Tory membership voted if given the choice between a white and a non-white candidate. Suspect we might not have the opportunity to find out this time if they try and stitch up Sunak. The fact that the Daily Heil is so much against him indicates something.
A diverse array of flat-earthers, their new electoral strategy?
Badenoch out (which is good because she's completely nutso), but still looks as though we'll be having another female PM before too long. The fact that Sunak is favourite among MPs counts for nowt with the Tory electorate.
So, a choice of the utterly useless Truss or the utterly invisible Mordaunt. Yeesh.
Meanwhile, in Labour land, Starmer has unilaterally talked Labour out of entering a coalition with any party regardless of the state of the nation at the next election. This, despite the fact that, even with the Tories shitness, it will be almost impossible for gain a majority because of the SNPs domination in Scotland. Minority governments always do really well, don't they, Keir? Pillock.
Badenoch out (which is good because she's completely nutso), but still looks as though we'll be having another female PM before too long. The fact that Sunak is favourite among MPs counts for nowt with the Tory electorate.
So, a choice of the utterly useless Truss or the utterly invisible Mordaunt. Yeesh.
Meanwhile, in Labour land, Starmer has unilaterally talked Labour out of entering a coalition with any party regardless of the state of the nation at the next election. This, despite the fact that, even with the Tories shitness, it will be almost impossible for gain a majority because of the SNPs domination in Scotland. Minority governments always do really well, don't they, Keir? Pillock.
YouGov had a poll out today showing Badenoch would have beaten any of the contenders with the electorate! Though whether that was just Zahawi throwing his weight around to fiddle the polls, I don't know. Wouldn't put it past him.
You say that you worry Limerick if the wrong person gets in, so who exactly is the right person? Or are you on the fishy bully bandwagon just waiting to go for the throat who ever gets, in because they’re a Tory?
Don't be such a snowflake. You’re turning this board WOKE. Ooooh, there are bullies on here (people who disagree with me because I’m wrong). I’m a victim. Cancel the ‘bullies’. 🥲
Don't be such a snowflake. You’re turning this board WOKE. Ooooh, there are bullies on here (people who disagree with me because I’m wrong). I’m a victim. Cancel the ‘bullies’. 🥲
I very much doubt you could bully a blow up doll! Pleased that you finally acknowledge Woke, I will take the credit for breaking you😂
Truss Vs Sunak. It’s like asking if you’d rather be cut in half vertically or horizontally.
I thought Sunak came across better the other night though over Truss in that TV debate more polished I felt.
I do feel some of you leftists on here and Iam neither left or right wing are harsh critics. When Labour get in at some point in the future will be interesting to see whether your as condemning as you have been of some of the right wing MPs. On another note I quite like Keir Starmer and certainly is a improvement over Corbyn. For me comes across as more trustworthy .
I thought Sunak came across better the other night though over Truss in that TV debate more polished I felt.
I do feel some of you leftists on here and Iam neither left or right wing are harsh critics. When Labour get in at some point in the future will be interesting to see whether your as condemning as you have been of some of the right wing MPs. On another note I quite like Keir Starmer and certainly is a improvement over Corbyn. For me comes across as more trustworthy .
I think Starmer's shite as well so i'll obviously be criticising him just as closely as I would any Tory PM, and absolutely laughable you think he's in any way more trustworthy than his predecessor:
Polish is all that Sunak has going for him. Unfortunately, you can't polish a turd, as the saying goes.
I suspect we'll see him coming out with all sorts of shite to try and lovebomb the Tory membership but remains to be seen if they'll buy it or not.
Truss will try to say as little as possible to try and avoid a catastrophic gaffe so I'd expect proxy attacks on Sunak to be made by her supporters.
I still reckon Truss will win it because Sunak has boxed himself in not to cut taxes and, well, she's white.
I always think of the Little Britain sketch with the W.I. members whenever I think about the Tory party membership. I'll be pleasantly surprised if I'm proven wrong and Sunak gets it. He'd be a catastrophe as PM, but so would Truss and I'm not sure there's much to choose who would be worse.
I think Starmer's shite as well so i'll obviously be criticising him just as closely as I would any Tory PM, and absolutely laughable you think he's in any way more trustworthy than his predecessor:
Please, just go one post without firing off a bunch of unfounded rubbish, I beg 🙏
Chris Iam not into all the nitty gritty of who said this and who said that as politics is not something Iam heavily into so Iam unaware that Starmer broke political promises like you mentioned above. Again first I heard of that so appreciate the input .
Iam sure if you nit pick you can find flaws and failed promises with Corbyn as well.
Iam genuinely glad your open to criticize Labour MPs. Refreshing to hear .
I always think of the Little Britain sketch with the W.I. members whenever I think about the Tory party membership. I'll be pleasantly surprised if I'm proven wrong and Sunak gets it. He'd be a catastrophe as PM, but so would Truss and I'm not sure there's much to choose who would be worse.
From a deeper level Maringer I be interested to hear whether you have admired any conservative politicians over say the last 100 years and what would be your top 4 British prime minister's of all time?.
From a deeper level Maringer I be interested to hear whether you have admired any conservative politicians over say the last 100 years and what would be your top 4 British prime minister's of all time?.
Top 4 PMs?
1. Atlee 2. Atlee 3. Atlee 4. Atlee
Achieved more in one term in office than any dozen others you can think of, notably the creation of the welfare state and NHS (though obviously it wasn't a one man show). Leader of the Labour Party and steering policy for 20 years. It's taken the post-1980 Tories and their fellow travellers decades to dismantle the achievements of that Labour administration, but they aren't too far away from it now.
There are certainly honourable Tory MPs - the likes of Rory Stewart, for example. Plenty of others as well. I don't admire any of them, of course, because you'd need to have seriously flawed judgement to join the Conservative Party in the first place. I don't admire many politicians for that matter.
There are certainly honourable Tory MPs - the likes of Rory Stewart, for example. Plenty of others as well. I don't admire any of them, of course, because you'd need to have seriously flawed judgement to join the Conservative Party in the first place. I don't admire many politicians for that matter.
Maringer Iam glad you have acknowledged some good about the Tory's even if it is marginal . I have heard of Atlee before funnily enough from someone on the fishy. And vaguely from a TV documentary. Like stated my knowledge of politics is minimal. I've always been more into boxing ,football ,nature ,tennis and reading autobiographys though not political 😉.
What I would say is I do think you have such a negative judgement of the Tory's which to me don't feel right. I know some Americans who seem genuinely nice people eg love their children,work their nuts off for their family's and do a lot of good to others who dislike the Democrat party immeasurably. Point is people all around the world will have differing views and one view politically I feel will never have all the answers. Having said that on the small part I have read on politics by I think it was a political graduate he did state like I felt is both political ideologies both left and right are flawed to one degree or other albeit he had a slight leaning to the left.
I still reckon Truss will win it because Sunak has boxed himself in not to cut taxes and, well, she's white..
Sometimes Maringer you don’t half surprise me, you’re one of the more intelligent posters on here more often than not putting out a reasoned post, and yet every once in a while you come out with bat excrement crazy posts like this…. Unbelievable 🤯
To try and make sense of this I can only assume that you like a good drink once in a while?
But anyway just to urine on your crazed theory, if the Conservative members are that racist, then why did Kemi Badenoch top the Conservative members poll and YouGov poll?
Achieved more in one term in office than any dozen others you can think of, notably the creation of the welfare state and NHS (though obviously it wasn't a one man show). Leader of the Labour Party and steering policy for 20 years. It's taken the post-1980 Tories and their fellow travellers decades to dismantle the achievements of that Labour administration, but they aren't too far away from it now.
There are certainly honourable Tory MPs - the likes of Rory Stewart, for example. Plenty of others as well. I don't admire any of them, of course, because you'd need to have seriously flawed judgement to join the Conservative Party in the first place. I don't admire many politicians for that matter.
Wow it must of been an heavy session, Attlee did not create the NHS or welfare state this is disingenuous to say the least and you know this as we have done this before. Attlee was a Control freak who’s socialist policy’s (when it suited) ended in disaster for 50 million British people. Nearly 6 years of food rationing longer than the Germans and the French with the promise of more rationing during his last election campaign….no wonder Churchill got back in.
Whilst looking to wade in on the 'best ever prime minister' debate, and wanting to claim Pitt the Younger was a Tory, I got side-tracked looking up some of the older ones. Spencer Perceval stands out, as the only serving PM to be assassinated he's our JFK.
Interesting facts He was the only Prime Minister to be assassinated whilst holding office. The current Conservative MP Henry Bellingham is a direct descendent of the assassin John Bellingham.
Maringer Iam glad you have acknowledged some good about the Tory's even if it is marginal . I have heard of Atlee before funnily enough from someone on the fishy. And vaguely from a TV documentary. Like stated my knowledge of politics is minimal. I've always been more into boxing ,football ,nature ,tennis and reading autobiographys though not political 😉.
What I would say is I do think you have such a negative judgement of the Tory's which to me don't feel right. I know some Americans who seem genuinely nice people eg love their children,work their nuts off for their family's and do a lot of good to others who dislike the Democrat party immeasurably. Point is people all around the world will have differing views and one view politically I feel will never have all the answers. Having said that on the small part I have read on politics by I think it was a political graduate he did state like I felt is both political ideologies both left and right are flawed to one degree or other albeit he had a slight leaning to the left.
Couple of points on the highlighted section.
Firstly, if you can't see how the Tories are purposefully turning this country more right wing and divisive, whilst slowly but surely plundering the nations wealth to the detriment of 99% of the population, then they have done their job and there is no hope of change.
Secondly, the Americans have been at this right wing propaganda thing longer than we have and have convinced a large swathe of their population that anything other than being a Republican is un- American and is verging on being a communist. They have the flag shagging down pat and their citizens think it's normal to work loads of hours with virtually no holidays and no welfare state to speak of should it all go mammaries up for them and they can't work any more, or they become ill.
We are rapidly heading in the same direction as them.
Firstly, if you can't see how the Tories are purposefully turning this country more right wing and divisive, whilst slowly but surely plundering the nations wealth to the detriment of 99% of the population, then they have done their job and there is no hope of change.
Secondly, the Americans have been at this right wing propaganda thing longer than we have and have convinced a large swathe of their population that anything other than being a Republican is un- American and is verging on being a communist. They have the flag shagging down pat and their citizens think it's normal to work loads of hours with virtually no holidays and no welfare state to speak of should it all go mammaries up for them and they can't work any more, or they become ill.
We are rapidly heading in the same direction as them.
Flag shaggers, right wing propaganda but no Gammon! Have you heard that the Democrats are now in charge over there?… wonder how it’s going for them?
Here’s an idea maybe sleepy Joe and his party could introduce a welfare state and paid holidays? Or maybe even a version of our NHS😂
Flag shaggers, right wing propaganda but no Gammon! Have you heard that the Democrats are now in charge over there?… wonder how it’s going for them?
Here’s an idea maybe sleepy Joe and his party could introduce a welfare state and paid holidays? Or maybe even a version of our NHS😂
Really? Fake news isn't it?
I'm sure it'll only be a blip while the right wing media on that side of the pond set about destroying him. Even they couldn't put a spin on the last lunatic they had in charge.
Starmer is a boring mammary and has already backtracked on several pledges.
He's not a patch on Corbyn, but he won't get the same treatment by the right wing press because he's not as big a threat to the Tories.
Unless he accepts that he needs to work in a coalition, I can't see him ever becoming PM.
The reason we ended up with a buffoon prime minister that's wrecked this country is that the Labour leader was Corbyn. Only Corbyn could have delivered the buffoon puppet to the ERG so perfectly to deliver the hard brexit that we didn't vote for...
The only reason we ended with even having a brexit vote that we didn't need is because the Labour party chose Ed Milliband instead of the probable election-winning choice of David Milliband.
I've supported the Labour Party all my adult life, but they just feck it up time and time again. I don't blame the Tories, that is like blaming foxes for burrowing into a chicken coup and gorging themselves, I blame the Labour Party. I don't even blame the Liberals for 2010, Cameron chucked them a social liberal bone and they took it, Brown could have set out a strong social liberal agenda to work with them on, but he managed to feck that up.
Best PM in my lifetime - Blair, worst - Blair - only one lie (of significance), but such a massive one...
Best PM that never was Robin Cook...he would have either won in 2010, or, as a social libertarian, worked well with the Liberals.
Say what you will about Frankie Boyle but I reckon he’s pretty perceptive judging by this summing up.
…But he proved to be an equal opportunity misanthrope, aiming barbs at both the left and the right.
He called the current Conservative government "incompetent fascists". "Because we live in a dying political system, it throws up politicians who look like they're dying," he continued, comparing US President Joe Biden to "a laptop that's on 4%". "And if they're not dying, they're people like [Labour leader] Keir Starmer who look like they were never alive... If he ran at a pigeon it wouldn't move."
Brilliant!
“I know writers who use subtext and they’re all cowards.” –Garth Marenghi
Say what you will about Frankie Boyle but I reckon he’s pretty perceptive judging by this summing up.
…But he proved to be an equal opportunity misanthrope, aiming barbs at both the left and the right.
He called the current Conservative government "incompetent fascists". "Because we live in a dying political system, it throws up politicians who look like they're dying," he continued, comparing US President Joe Biden to "a laptop that's on 4%".
I think Frankie Boyle is wrong on branding conservatives fascists though. Again you can't stereotype. There's good people on the left and the right of the political divide and people that put others down immeasurably who are ardent leftists(as they do on the right as well).I always remember this history teacher to give you a example who was very self righteous as he was a staunch Labour member . Thing is it wasn't long ago but he put others down based on their appearance eg big boned ,ginger hair , physical attractiveness etc . It's just like racism eg people can't help their physical characteristics eg skin tone colour and shouldn't be made to feel bad about it.
Lot of hypocrisy about in today's often fallen world.
I think Frankie Boyle is wrong on branding conservatives fascists though. Again you can't stereotype. There's good people on the left and the right of the political divide and people that put others down immeasurably who are ardent leftists(as they do on the right as well).I always remember this history teacher to give you a example who was very self righteous as he was a staunch Labour member . Thing is it wasn't long ago but he put others down based on their appearance eg big boned ,ginger hair , physical attractiveness etc . It's just like racism eg people can't help their physical characteristics eg skin tone colour and shouldn't be made to feel bad about it.
Lot of hypocrisy about in today's often fallen world.
Jesus wept!
It was a bit of humour ffs!!
“I know writers who use subtext and they’re all cowards.” –Garth Marenghi
I think Frankie Boyle is wrong on branding conservatives fascists though. Again you can't stereotype. There's good people on the left and the right of the political divide and people that put others down immeasurably who are ardent leftists(as they do on the right as well).I always remember this history teacher to give you a example who was very self righteous as he was a staunch Labour member . Thing is it wasn't long ago but he put others down based on their appearance eg big boned ,ginger hair , physical attractiveness etc . It's just like racism eg people can't help their physical characteristics eg skin tone colour and shouldn't be made to feel bad about it.
Lot of hypocrisy about in today's often fallen world.
This is very true Rick, there will never be a one fits all ideology. You will never please all of the people all of the time. This is what Blair seemed to understand by moving along more to the centre ground. Only problem being it felt like a poor compromise where no matter which side of the fence you stood, you still felt a little bit cheated. Being somewhat right of centre I’m naturally disappointed the Torys are trundling along this social Democrat path but it seems the safe bet, and there’s no doubt in my mind that if Starmer ever got into no.10 nothing would change in the grand scheme of things. It’s funny because the Lefty socialists who like to be portrayed as tolerant and caring continue to have this extreme element just like we witness on here at times who have this depraved hatred towards any right wing political party especially the Torys, even though history proves that the country has been at its most successful under a capitalist government.
Regarding the Tories drift to the right since 2010 (which has only accelerated since Brexit), if you compare the current situation with Umberto Eco's list of 14 features of fascism, you'll see that many of them now exist in the UK.
Here's an interesting analysis of how speech in the House of Commons since then has shifted in recent years to reflect these traits:
I'm not claiming this is a scientific analysis but a useful representation of how the language used in parliament has changed and where this is leading.
It’s funny because the Lefty socialists who like to be portrayed as tolerant and caring continue to have this extreme element just like we witness on here at times who have this depraved hatred towards any right wing political party especially the Torys, even though history proves that the country has been at its most successful under a capitalist government.
Yes at times on here it does feel like a political battleground.
Having said that none of us have all the answers to life's complexity's though Humbercod 🙂😉.
Regarding the Tories drift to the right since 2010 (which has only has shifted
I'm not claiming this is a scientific analysis but a useful representation of how the language used in parliament has changed and where this is leading.
From another deeper level Maringer it will be interesting to see the state of our country politically in 500 years and worldwide?.
The way things are going, probably under the sea or on fire.
🙂.
You touch on a valid point though . People that have lived a long time in their homelands are having to move due to rising sea levels. Similarly having been to the Maldives for one it would be a shame if these beautiful islands in the Indian Ocean disappear due to rising seas as is scientific predictions in the next 50- 100 years
Yes at times on here it does feel like a political battleground. Possibly because the leftist element on here are jealous as there not in power at the moment 😉.
Having said that none of us have all the answers to life's complexity's though Humbercod 🙂😉.
Chaos that was a tongue in cheek comment .With hindsight I should not of posted it. Now deleted.
Point is this forum especially this non football thread is heavily leftist. Politics by nature is divisive. You go around the world and start talking politics and it can lead to fights in certain areas eg left v right or right v left . We all have a difference of opinion and noone is completely right all the time.
Regarding the Tories drift to the right since 2010 (which has only accelerated since Brexit), if you compare the current situation with Umberto Eco's list of 14 features of fascism, you'll see that many of them now exist in the UK.
Here's an interesting analysis of how speech in the House of Commons since then has shifted in recent years to reflect these traits:
I'm not claiming this is a scientific analysis but a useful representation of how the language used in parliament has changed and where this is leading.
What an utter pile of left wing biased shite, I stopped reading at…The utterance of ‘Great Britain’ in the House has also almost quadrupled in that time.FFS
Yes at times on here it does feel like a political battleground. Possibly because a small percentage of the leftist element on here are jealous as there not in power at the moment 😉.
Rick, you’re a little bit above Humbo on the ‘nitwit’ scale, but at times it feels like it’s not that much of a gap. First of all….it’s ‘they’re’, not ‘there’.
To say that the pigeon-holed ‘lefties’ (note Humbo, to help you with Key stage one literacy, not ‘lefty’s) or ‘bullies’ or whatever some, virtue signalling, wokey snowflake tripe is being spouted by Humbo, are ‘jealous’ about not ‘being in charge’, is almost as childish and dim as it is nonsensical.
Rick, you’re a little bit above Humbo on the ‘nitwit’ scale, but at times it feels like it’s not that much of a gap. First of all….it’s ‘they’re’, not ‘there’.
To say that the pigeon-holed ‘lefties’ (note Humbo, to help you with Key stage one literacy, not ‘lefty’s) or ‘bullies’ or whatever some, virtue signalling, wokey snowflake tripe is being spouted by Humbo, are ‘jealous’ about not ‘being in charge’, is almost as childish and dim as it is nonsensical.
Chaos the truth is it was a flippant comment as I was quite down yesterday and Iam not going to go into the reasons why and with hindsight I maybe should not of posted it eg "leftists being jealous that there not in power". But I can rebound it back at you. The way some of the leftist element on here think their party is the be all and end all needs some readdressing. Surely you must see some problems with aspects of left wing agenda and it isnt the holy grail to solving humanitys problems. As for my spelling mistake yes thanks for pointing it out but if we start nitpicking other people's faults we can find flaws with anyone.
As for the nitwit comment I doubt you are perfect as is anyone so it's all relative. I can call you one as well or far worse but choose not to. People need to build bridges not barrier's.
As for Humbercod I do feel he is ganged upon sometimes on here by the mob mentality which I don't like to see. Surely respect is the way to go albeit it works both ways .
Chaos the truth is it was a flippant comment as I was quite down yesterday and Iam not going to go into the reasons why and with hindsight I maybe should not of posted it eg "leftists being jealous that there not in power". But I can rebound it back at you. The way some of the leftist element on here think their party is the be all and end all needs some readdressing. Surely you must see some problems with aspects of left wing agenda and it isnt the holy grail to solving humanitys problems. As for my spelling mistake yes thanks for pointing it out but if we start nitpicking other people's faults we can find flaws with anyone.
As for the nitwit comment I doubt you are perfect as is anyone so it's all relative. I can call you one as well or far worse but choose not to. People need to build bridges not barrier's.
As for Humbercod I do feel he is ganged upon sometimes on here by the mob mentality which I don't like to see. Surely respect is the way to go albeit it works both ways .
I don't think that the 'lefties' have this view at all, I know I don't, but the Tories have been in power for 12 years and the country is in a far worse state now than it was when they took over. They are constantly infighting and changing leaders, yet some people like yourself think that we somehow have to justify our beliefs that the average Joe would be far better off under a socialist government.
No, the Labour party isn't perfect, far from it, but myself and others think there's a better way. You talk about building bridges, not barriers. Well the Tories bar progress and social mobility like no party I have ever seen. They are totally in it for themselves and their kind.
Also, you don't have to stick up for Humbercod, He holds his own, even if he is totally wrong most of the time.
I don't think that the 'lefties' have this view at all, I know I don't, but the Tories have been in power for 12 years and the country is in a far worse state now than it was when they took over. They are constantly infighting and changing leaders, yet some people like yourself think that we somehow have to justify our beliefs that the average Joe would be far better off under a socialist government.
No, the Labour party isn't perfect, far from it, but myself and others think there's a better way.
Also, you don't have to stick up for Humbercod, He holds his own, even if he is totally wrong most of the time.
Ginny appreciate your response and overall I like the tone of your message. Apologies if I go a bit heavy on here sometimes. Truth be told things happen in life which fills you with anger especially when your vulnerable as a kid and teenager. I've realised it's a choice you have. You can fight back for the better or it will destroy you if you let it.
Rick, without being rude I don’t think you have any clue what socialism is. I believe you have fallen for the right wing media trick of making people believe that anyone that wants to tax the wealthy so that the poor in society get more help is essentially Trotsky.
Socialism has become a dirty word when in fact the NHS, a beloved institution (admittedly with it’s faults but that’s a separate issue), is socialism in action.
The Nordic models of high taxation but then having services and schooling and infrastructure that works really well isn’t a bad thing is it?
Rick, without being rude I don’t think you have any clue what socialism is. I believe you have fallen for the right wing media trick of making people believe that anyone that wants to tax the wealthy so that the poor in society get more help is essentially Trotsky.
Socialism has become a dirty word when in fact the NHS, a beloved institution (admittedly with it’s faults but that’s a separate issue), is socialism in action.
The Nordic models of high taxation but then having services and schooling and infrastructure that works really well isn’t a bad thing is it?
Thanks for the politics information Mariner. From the little I know on politics though at this moment all I can say is I think there is good and bad to both party's both left and right but taken to the extreme both are dangerous.
Ultimately I want a prime minister that governs this country to have integrity . I know that is impossible as the perfect person will never exist but certainly the one that at least genuinely trys the most to stand up and deliver on creating a better society for all.
Thanks for the politics information Mariner. From the little I know on politics though at this moment all I can say is I think there is good and bad to both party's both left and right but taken to the extreme both are dangerous.
Ultimately I want a prime minister that governs this country to have integrity . I know that is impossible as the perfect person will never exist but certainly the one that at least genuinely trys the most to stand up and deliver on creating a better society for all.
I think we all want that. The problem is that virtually nobody left in the Tory party has any integrity left. Particularly the ones who have been so closely aligned with Johnson.
I think we all want that. The problem is that virtually nobody left in the Tory party has any integrity left. Particularly the ones who have been so closely aligned with Johnson.
Both Sunak and Truss have been in Government for years but are quite happy to trash everything they have defended for years, anyone would think Sunak hadn’t been chancellor for the past few years and Truss has already been well over promoted as foreign secretary. The Tories have made a big mistake in not getting someone not poisoned by the crooked squatter in no.10 in the race. They have no policies or plan except the plan to stay in power, the debate for them is more about who would defeat Labour in the next election rather than what would be the best for the country now. They have been in power 12 years every problem is now their legacy, they can no longer blame what other parties might have done, they have a record of failure after failure, a cost of living crisis, record crime rates, high inflation, rising interest rates, a National debt over three times that when they came to power, massive health waiting lists and a worry if an ambulance will turn up in an emergency. Johnson has made the country a laughing stock abroad, a clown without the grace or honour to stand down for his deputy despite being kicked out in disgrace by his own Party.
Rick, without being rude I don’t think you have any clue what socialism is. I believe you have fallen for the right wing media trick of making people believe that anyone that wants to tax the wealthy so that the poor in society get more help is essentially Trotsky.
Socialism has become a dirty word when in fact the NHS, a beloved institution (admittedly with it’s faults but that’s a separate issue), is socialism in action.
The Nordic models of high taxation but then having services and schooling and infrastructure that works really well isn’t a bad thing is it?
Patronising and rude kind of go hand in hand but hey ho small steps. I don’t think he even mentioned Socialism did he? Unless being a Labour supporter now means you’re a socialist…which makes no sense unless all those red wall voters that gave Bois is massive majority are all socialists.
I’m not being funny and not after an argument but Socialism is a dirty word as far as the millions that have and continue to suffer from it. I can understand the appeal of a world without the super rich owning everything and the rest of us all getting an equal share, a world without poverty, no homeless etc, but truth is and I have to say sadly.. this is pure fantasy.
Since the beginning of humanity there has always been those at the top of the food chain, Socialism would not change any of this. Just take look at North Korea or Cuba to a lesser extent, all the wealth is owned by the few at the top whilst the people are left poor and miserable but hey at least they’re all equal.
As for the NHS being a beloved institution…. Talk about trickery.
Patronising and rude kind of go hand in hand but hey ho small steps. I don’t think he even mentioned Socialism did he? Unless being a Labour supporter now means you’re a socialist…which makes no sense unless all those red wall voters that gave Bois is massive majority are all socialists.
I’m not being funny and not after an argument but Socialism is a dirty word as far as the millions that have and continue to suffer from it. I can understand the appeal of a world without the super rich owning everything and the rest of us all getting an equal share, a world without poverty, no homeless etc, but truth is and I have to say sadly.. this is pure fantasy.
Since the beginning of humanity there has always been those at the top of the food chain, Socialism would not change any of this. Just take look at North Korea or Cuba to a lesser extent, all the wealth is owned by the few at the top whilst the people are left poor and miserable but hey at least they’re all equal.
As for the NHS being a beloved institution…. Talk about trickery.
We established long ago that you have zero idea what you're talking about so not really surprised by this reply completely misunderstanding what socialism is once again. North Korea is not a socialist country, the fact you think it is is laughably dumb.
Patronising and rude kind of go hand in hand but hey ho small steps. I don’t think he even mentioned Socialism did he? Unless being a Labour supporter now means you’re a socialist…which makes no sense unless all those red wall voters that gave Bois is massive majority are all socialists.
I’m not being funny and not after an argument but Socialism is a dirty word as far as the millions that have and continue to suffer from it. I can understand the appeal of a world without the super rich owning everything and the rest of us all getting an equal share, a world without poverty, no homeless etc, but truth is and I have to say sadly.. this is pure fantasy.
Since the beginning of humanity there has always been those at the top of the food chain, Socialism would not change any of this. Just take look at North Korea or Cuba to a lesser extent, all the wealth is owned by the few at the top whilst the people are left poor and miserable but hey at least they’re all equal.
As for the NHS being a beloved institution…. Talk about trickery.
Someone else who clearly has no idea what social democracy is all about.
The right wing press have done a fantastic job, much as it pains me to say.
We established long ago that you have zero idea what you're talking about so not really surprised by this reply completely misunderstanding what socialism is once again. North Korea is not a socialist country, the fact you think it is is laughably dumb.
Someone else who clearly has no idea what social democracy is all about.
The right wing press have done a fantastic job, much as it pains me to say.
An amazing job, the most successful British sales enterprise of the last 12 years perhaps ever...
Product negatives - tens of thousands of staff vacancies in the NHS and overall vacancies at the highest ever recorded level, massive delays at our borders and airports, a custom border dividing our country, food costs 6% higher than they otherwise would be whilst our produce rots in the fields, exclusion from the Erasmus programme for our young people, we are about to lose access to billions of £ of research funding from the Horizon Europe, plummeting trade with the biggest single market collective of democratic nation-states and over 5% reduction in GDP as a result (latest Economist estimate).
Positives - more powerful vacuum cleaners, a few tinpot trade deals, fewer drunk polish youths hanging around our town centres, we can blame the French for more things, we have taken back control of something (but not quite sure what).
What a superb sales job they have done for the ERG product.
I think the ‘take back control’ notion is the one aspect so exposed as an utter fabrication. Ask those thousands of Brits stuck at Dover if they feel they’re now more or less in control of our borders! The idea that borders have 2 sides, and that an end to ‘freedom of movement’ also means an end to YOUR freedom of movement seems to have upset some sadly duped by Brexit lies. This seems to be infuriating brexiteers now, blaming France or the EU for being forced to treat us like any other third country. Liars sold you this skipfire and client journalists in the Mail are still gaslighting you over it - calling it EU red tape or some other patent guff.
I’ve said this before but this is where Britain is now - we have cancelled our membership of the golf club, but still expect to play there for free, and then moan at the club’s management for not letting us do that!!
Still….fewer electrical checks, poorer employment rights, lower standards of food hygiene etc etc….all a massive dividend of Brexit. Jesus!
I think the ‘take back control’ notion is the one aspect so exposed as an utter fabrication. Ask those thousands of Brits stuck at Dover if they feel they’re now more or less in control of our borders! The idea that borders have 2 sides, and that an end to ‘freedom of movement’ also means an end to YOUR freedom of movement seems to have upset some sadly duped by Brexit lies. This seems to be infuriating brexiteers now, blaming France or the EU for being forced to treat us like any other third country. Liars sold you this skipfire and client journalists in the Mail are still gaslighting you over it - calling it EU red tape or some other patent guff.
I’ve said this before but this is where Britain is now - we have cancelled our membership of the golf club, but still expect to play there for free, and then moan at the club’s management for not letting us do that!!
Still….fewer electrical checks, poorer employment rights, lower standards of food hygiene etc etc….all a massive dividend of Brexit. Jesus!
The UK has e-gates for EU citizens. Allowing them fast access to the UK. The EU don’t have e-gates for UK passengers! And the French male masturbators like to be difficult as way of punishment. My advice for what must be a majority of remainers stuck at Dover 😂 go somewhere like Portugal they’re being more than welcome despite Brexit 😀 https://www.mediacentre.gatwickairport.com/press-releases/all/22-04-28_portugal-e-gates.aspx
It's a kleptocratic autocracy adherent to the concept of Juche, a deeply confused ideology based around the achievement North Korean self-reliance, which has very little to do with the ideas of Marxism-Leninism it was supposedly derived from. Hope this helps and sorry if it's too nuanced for you to handle.
The UK has e-gates for EU citizens. Allowing them fast access to the UK. The EU don’t have e-gates for UK passengers! And the French male masturbators like to be difficult as way of punishment. My advice for what must be a majority of remainers stuck at Dover 😂 go somewhere like Portugal they’re being more than welcome despite Brexit 😀 https://www.mediacentre.gatwickairport.com/press-releases/all/22-04-28_portugal-e-gates.aspx
Remainders stuck at Dover?! You clot.
Ah, the delights of the ‘self con’/confirmation bias phenomena.
It's a kleptocratic autocracy adherent to the concept of Juche, a deeply confused ideology based around the achievement North Korean self-reliance, which has very little to do with the ideas of Marxism-Leninism it was supposedly derived from. Hope this helps and sorry if it's too nuanced for you to handle.
Why don’t you climb out of his bottom and let him answer for himself! Juche stems from the same evils it’s just been tweaked to make it more abhorrent.
The UK has e-gates for EU citizens. Allowing them fast access to the UK. The EU don’t have e-gates for UK passengers! And the French male masturbators like to be difficult as way of punishment. My advice for what must be a majority of remainers stuck at Dover 😂 go somewhere like Portugal they’re being more than welcome despite Brexit 😀 https://www.mediacentre.gatwickairport.com/press-releases/all/22-04-28_portugal-e-gates.aspx
Well, if 52% of the population voted to leave, then it's fair to say that 52% of those stuck at Dover aren't remainers, but of course you know that.
Methinks that you are just on a wind up now, because nobody can be that dim.
Why don’t you climb out of his bottom and let him answer for himself! Juche stems from the same evils it’s just been tweaked to make it more abhorrent.
You are unbelievably dim. If you think there’s any parallels between the North Korean system and the socialism seen in Western and Northern European countries then you’re not worth replying to. Might as well lump anyone who’s slightly right of centre in with the Nazis by that logic.
Looks like my decision to add Humbo to my Fishy blocklist (population: him) remains a good one. Must surely be trolling from some of those inane quotes.
Well, if 52% of the population voted to leave, then it's fair to say that 52% of those stuck at Dover aren't remainers, but of course you know that.
Methinks that you are just on a wind up now, because nobody can be that dim.
Or can they?
The English remain voting areas were predominantly London and the South🤯 I doubt there would be to many middle class Grimsby remain voters in their luxury motor homes stuck down there!
You are unbelievably dim. If you think there’s any parallels between the North Korean system and the socialism seen in Western and Northern European countries then you’re not worth replying to. Might as well lump anyone who’s slightly right of centre in with the Nazis by that logic.
You are twisting your argument now to save face it’s just laughable… you said North Korea is not a socialist country!!! No mention of parallel with the western system until you were helped out😂 Do you know the definition of a Socialist Country? Let me help you - https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/socialist-countries
Socialist countries are states that have aligned themselves with socialism. There is no criteria or official process for being named a socialist state. All that is required is that a country identifies itself as socialist. This includes nations that claim to be socialists or have constitutions that state that they are based on socialism, even if they do not rigidly follow the economic or political systems associated with socialism, because socialism is still the foundation of their political and economic policy.
At least have the decency to admit you are wrong, and then maybe apologise for being insulting.
Looks like my decision to add Humbo to my Fishy blocklist (population: him) remains a good one. Must surely be trolling from some of those inane quotes.
Another joker … stop pretending it’s cringingly obvious you still read my posts 😂
You are twisting your argument now to save face it’s just laughable… you said North Korea is not a socialist country!!! No mention of parallel with the western system until you were helped out😂 Do you know the definition of a Socialist Country? Let me help you - https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/socialist-countries
Socialist countries are states that have aligned themselves with socialism. There is no criteria or official process for being named a socialist state. All that is required is that a country identifies itself as socialist. This includes nations that claim to be socialists or have constitutions that state that they are based on socialism, even if they do not rigidly follow the economic or political systems associated with socialism, because socialism is still the foundation of their political and economic policy.
At least have the decency to admit you are wrong, and then maybe apologise for being insulting.
North Korea can call themselves whatever they like but they're not socialist. They also call themselves a democratic republic but they blatantly aren't. They've literally got a ruling elite who hoover up virtually all the country's wealth, this is the opposite of socialism. Just like the Nazis claimed to be "National socialists", they weren't remotely socialist. It's just a ploy by dictators to try and get the public on side early doors. Still, you're the genius that tried to claim Hitler was left wing so I think we can treat your opinions with the disdain they deserve.
North Korea can call themselves whatever they like but they're not socialist. They also call themselves a democratic republic but they blatantly aren't. They've literally got a ruling elite who hoover up virtually all the country's wealth, this is the opposite of socialism. Just like the Nazis claimed to be "National socialists", they weren't remotely socialist. It's just a ploy by dictators to try and get the public on side early doors. Still, you're the genius that tried to claim Hitler was left wing so I think we can treat your opinions with the disdain they deserve.
Just for arguments sake then, just so I understand your logic regarding this evil ideology let’s take away the ones whose foundations arose from Marxism, before evolving into other warped interpretations ok so far. How many of these true socialists country’s the ones that you seem quite defensive about, you know the ones that you want to distance from North Korea can you say are the Country’s we should be aspiring to?
Just for arguments sake then, just so I understand your logic regarding this evil ideology let’s take away the ones whose foundations arose from Marxism, before evolving into other warped interpretations ok so far. How many of these true socialists country’s the ones that you seem quite defensive about, you know the ones that you want to distance from North Korea can you say are the Country’s we should be aspiring to?
The problem we have Humbo is that you can't seem to grasp that Marxism is one extreme end of a spectrum of socialism. You are not intelligent enough to understand the differences between different ideologies and only see an "us" and "them" scenario. With anything on the left being different to your way of thinking and therefore must be evil. I'm not a Marxist, I'm sure many on here wouldn't identify as a Marxist either. Hell, despite what the right wing media have convinced you even Jeremy Corbyn wasn't a Marxist. You trying to lump all forms of socialism together as one "evil" is no different to someone claiming that anything on the right is evil because the Nazis were awful. Is Thatcherism evil because it's the same side of the political spectrum as Nazism?
As for states that we should aspire to then the Nordic Model, particularly that of Norway, would be something that I would be over the moon with. I don't mind having a mixed market economy. But I don't agree with natural monopolies like water companies being run for private gain. They should be run by the state with any profit made put back into investing in infrastructure for the people of the country and not in to dividends for the rich. I don't think the energy market should be private in the UK, particularly when companies like EDF are owned by foreign governments. As a rabid Brexiteer, the thought that your energy bills are paying for French pensions would likely make your head explode. I also don't think that oil and gas for example, which were formed naturally under the country that we all occupy, should be used to make billions of pounds for a small part of society. The money made from exporting and producing them should be used to benefit all of us. Essentially, the state should have a large ownership of key sectors, particularly ones like those mentioned above.
I'm quite happy for high taxation if it means we have good infrastructure, good schooling and a health service that works. You've fallen in to the trap from the right wing media of being convinced that foreigners/socialists/benefit claimants/the EU/transexuals/delete as appropriate are the cause of your misery. But ask yourself why has the economy grown since 2008 yet in real terms the majority of us are far worse off? The rich have become obscenely rich and it's to the detriment of the rest of us. As a socialist, I would like this to be addressed. I have no issue with people working hard and being successful and I invite them to enjoy their wealth. But something is incredibly wrong if we're the seventh biggest economy in the world but have people in full time work relying on food banks to feed themselves. So all I ask is that we rebalance the wealth within the country a bit more, stop the rich evading tax and make sure people are properly remunerated for their labour. Without the working and middle class, everything stops running so why are we only offered crumbs from those that sit at the top table?
The problem we have Humbo is that you can't seem to grasp that Marxism is one extreme end of a spectrum of socialism. You are not intelligent enough to understand the differences between different ideologies and only see an "us" and "them" scenario. With anything on the left being different to your way of thinking and therefore must be evil. I'm not a Marxist, I'm sure many on here wouldn't identify as a Marxist either. Hell, despite what the right wing media have convinced you even Jeremy Corbyn wasn't a Marxist. You trying to lump all forms of socialism together as one "evil" is no different to someone claiming that anything on the right is evil because the Nazis were awful. Is Thatcherism evil because it's the same side of the political spectrum as Nazism?
As for states that we should aspire to then the Nordic Model, particularly that of Norway, would be something that I would be over the moon with. I don't mind having a mixed market economy. But I don't agree with natural monopolies like water companies being run for private gain. They should be run by the state with any profit made put back into investing in infrastructure for the people of the country and not in to dividends for the rich. I don't think the energy market should be private in the UK, particularly when companies like EDF are owned by foreign governments. As a rabid Brexiteer, the thought that your energy bills are paying for French pensions would likely make your head explode. I also don't think that oil and gas for example, which were formed naturally under the country that we all occupy, should be used to make billions of pounds for a small part of society. The money made from exporting and producing them should be used to benefit all of us. Essentially, the state should have a large ownership of key sectors, particularly ones like those mentioned above.
I'm quite happy for high taxation if it means we have good infrastructure, good schooling and a health service that works. You've fallen in to the trap from the right wing media of being convinced that foreigners/socialists/benefit claimants/the EU/transexuals/delete as appropriate are the cause of your misery. But ask yourself why has the economy grown since 2008 yet in real terms the majority of us are far worse off? The rich have become obscenely rich and it's to the detriment of the rest of us. As a socialist, I would like this to be addressed. I have no issue with people working hard and being successful and I invite them to enjoy their wealth. But something is incredibly wrong if we're the seventh biggest economy in the world but have people in full time work relying on food banks to feed themselves. So all I ask is that we rebalance the wealth within the country a bit more, stop the rich evading tax and make sure people are properly remunerated for their labour. Without the working and middle class, everything stops running so why are we only offered crumbs from those that sit at the top table?
Utter madness you commie.
I much prefer Jacob Rees Mogg telling me to doff my cap and be thankful for my lot.
The problem we have Humbo is that you can't seem to grasp that Marxism is one extreme end of a spectrum of socialism. You are not intelligent enough to understand the differences between different ideologies and only see an "us" and "them" scenario. With anything on the left being different to your way of thinking and therefore must be evil. I'm not a Marxist, I'm sure many on here wouldn't identify as a Marxist either. Hell, despite what the right wing media have convinced you even Jeremy Corbyn wasn't a Marxist. You trying to lump all forms of socialism together as one "evil" is no different to someone claiming that anything on the right is evil because the Nazis were awful. Is Thatcherism evil because it's the same side of the political spectrum as Nazism?
As for states that we should aspire to then the Nordic Model, particularly that of Norway, would be something that I would be over the moon with. I don't mind having a mixed market economy. But I don't agree with natural monopolies like water companies being run for private gain. They should be run by the state with any profit made put back into investing in infrastructure for the people of the country and not in to dividends for the rich. I don't think the energy market should be private in the UK, particularly when companies like EDF are owned by foreign governments. As a rabid Brexiteer, the thought that your energy bills are paying for French pensions would likely make your head explode. I also don't think that oil and gas for example, which were formed naturally under the country that we all occupy, should be used to make billions of pounds for a small part of society. The money made from exporting and producing them should be used to benefit all of us. Essentially, the state should have a large ownership of key sectors, particularly ones like those mentioned above.
I'm quite happy for high taxation if it means we have good infrastructure, good schooling and a health service that works. You've fallen in to the trap from the right wing media of being convinced that foreigners/socialists/benefit claimants/the EU/transexuals/delete as appropriate are the cause of your misery. But ask yourself why has the economy grown since 2008 yet in real terms the majority of us are far worse off? The rich have become obscenely rich and it's to the detriment of the rest of us. As a socialist, I would like this to be addressed. I have no issue with people working hard and being successful and I invite them to enjoy their wealth. But something is incredibly wrong if we're the seventh biggest economy in the world but have people in full time work relying on food banks to feed themselves. So all I ask is that we rebalance the wealth within the country a bit more, stop the rich evading tax and make sure people are properly remunerated for their labour. Without the working and middle class, everything stops running so why are we only offered crumbs from those that sit at the top table?
First of all insults aside that’s fair response you have made some good points, but I still feel all you have done is strip done a fact to suite your argument. Just to recap you told Rick and Myself that we don’t have a clue what socialism is… correct?
I’m sure anybody with a passing interest in politics would have a basic understanding of the fundamentals of socialism, a quick Google check would certainly clarify the basics. Rick commented on a hypothetical socialist government not being the answer to the Country’s woes, now judging previous socialist governments this was a more than fair comment to be honest but you let your arrogance get the better.
I had the audacity to call North Korea a socialist Country but it doesn’t matter if their history stems from socialism, they identify as socialists or they characterise as socialists because You say not! But this is where your arrogance falls flat as socialism especially modern socialism your talking about has so many different meanings and interpretations, which is why I asked you to tell me the socialist countries we should be striving to be, but obviously you couldn’t answer this as by your own logic there are no Socialist country’s anymore in the true sense anyway.
Which leads me on to the Nordic Country’s where your post started to make much more sense, now i’d looked into these models years ago and wasn’t in favour of mixing capitalism with socialism back then I would need to go over it all again to form a solid opinion but I liked a lot of what you said apart from the state having large ownership, you’ve got to admit anything the state owns and runs usually ends up a disaster throw in the unions holding them to ransom every few years and it’s a case of rinse and repeat. I think part ownership is the only way forward.
For the record I don’t live in misery you can speak for yourself and I certainly don’t blame those you’ve mentioned this is just stereotyping straight from the Guardian except maybe the EU (joke) if you are. I don’t think it will come as a surprise when I say that I certainly don’t want to pay high taxes, I want to live in a low tax economy with a great health care and schools, have money to enjoy life and give all the children in the country a decent life that’s what I want and we can afford to do this but socialism is not the answer and yes we will never agree, but Its my belief that we need a real conservative government with real conservative policys not these Tory idiots. Yes the wealth gap needs to close on a massive scale I agree its totally obscene, just hearing British Gas latest profits today made me feel sick, on the day we get told more increases in our fuel bills as well.
First of all insults aside that’s fair response you have made some good points, but I still feel all you have done is strip done a fact to suite your argument. Just to recap you told Rick and Myself that we don’t have a clue what socialism is… correct?
I’m sure anybody with a passing interest in politics would have a basic understanding of the fundamentals of socialism, a quick Google check would certainly clarify the basics. Rick commented on a hypothetical socialist government not being the answer to the Country’s woes, now judging previous socialist governments this was a more than fair comment to be honest but you let your arrogance get the better.
I had the audacity to call North Korea a socialist Country but it doesn’t matter if their history stems from socialism, they identify as socialists or they characterise as socialists because You say not! But this is where your arrogance falls flat as socialism especially modern socialism your talking about has so many different meanings and interpretations, which is why I asked you to tell me the socialist countries we should be striving to be, but obviously you couldn’t answer this as by your own logic there are no Socialist country’s anymore in the true sense anyway.
Which leads me on to the Nordic Country’s where your post started to make much more sense, now i’d looked into these models years ago and wasn’t in favour of mixing capitalism with socialism back then I would need to go over it all again to form a solid opinion but I liked a lot of what you said apart from the state having large ownership, you’ve got to admit anything the state owns and runs usually ends up a disaster throw in the unions holding them to ransom every few years and it’s a case of rinse and repeat. I think part ownership is the only way forward.
For the record I don’t live in misery you can speak for yourself and I certainly don’t blame those you’ve mentioned this is just stereotyping straight from the Guardian except maybe the EU (joke) if you are. I don’t think it will come as a surprise when I say that I certainly don’t want to pay high taxes, I want to live in a low tax economy with a great health care and schools, have money to enjoy life and give all the children in the country a decent life that’s what I want and we can afford to do this but socialism is not the answer and yes we will never agree, but Its my belief that we need a real conservative government with real conservative policys not these Tory idiots. Yes the wealth gap needs to close on a massive scale I agree its totally obscene, just hearing British Gas latest profits today made me feel sick, on the day we get told more increases in our fuel bills as well.
I still don't believe you actually understand what socialism is. You have had your opinions shaped and warped so much by the right wing press who try to bastardise the word socialism in the public's mind to suit their own agenda. Having a welfare state is socialism. Having a free at the point of use health service not paid for by insurance is socialism. I would be astonished if anyone on here would argue that these things should be scrapped completely so in essence, everyone agrees to a greater or lesser extent with some aspects of socialism. You even agreed that the wealth gap needs closing but how do you expect to do that without protecting the rights of workers and without implementing policies to stop big corporations, like Centrica, from profiteering? The conservative policies of the 80s helped some of the general public by (wrongly IMO) selling off council housing for cheap etc but there's nothing left to sell. Everything is already in the hands of massive companies or the richest in society and they're not in the business of sharing or limiting their own profits. Unfortunately the current economic system means money makes more money so when capitalism is left completely unchecked the end game is that ultimately the wealth is pooled in a small amount of peoples' pockets.
I gave you examples of democratic socialist states that are more prosperous and far better functioning that the UK but you chose to not count that because it doesn't suit your agenda. Chrisblor explained, far more eloquently than I could, why you really can't classify North Korea as a socialist state but you chose to just insult him most probably because you don't understand it enough to discuss it in any other way. I couldn't care less how they define themselves as they also call themselves a democratic republic despite having one of the most autocratic regimes on planet Earth. I could go in to how Juche is supposedly based on Marxist-Leninism (it's not in practice but it claims to be) which is a more extreme version of Marxism to the point that it's essentially what most people would recognise as communism but there's no point as you don't do nuance. Equally, the former soviet Bloc was mainly composed of authoritarian socialist states which unless I'm mistaken is not something that any "leftie" on here or in British politics has called for at any point. Once again, it is your twisted and extreme personal view of what socialism is that clouds your opinion. A view of socialism that has been deliberately distorted by the predominantly right wing British press because god forbid a more left leaning government may get in to power and the owners of such publications could be forced to pay the tax they've been dodging for the last 20 years or more.
It won't surprise you to learn that I disagree that previous socialist governments haven't helped the country. There was less poverty, shorter waiting times and far less crime in 2008 than there was now. That isn't to say that the Labour government didn't make mistakes because they did. Furthermore, the Iraq war was completely deplorable and I hope one day the architects of it are held to account for the damage it caused. But by virtually any metric the country was in a better place then than it is now. And for the love of God, please don't try to claim that our government was the cause of the GLOBAL FINANCIAL CRISIS (hint: the clue is in the name). Frankly if you still believe that myth peddled by the Daily Mail et al. then you're beyond hope.
I also don't agree that everything state run doesn't work. Our railways are an expensive mess and have been for a number of years. Many of the European rail networks are run by state owned companies and are cheaper, more efficient and faster. Any profits made go back in to the public purse or in to upgrading the rail infrastructure and making rail travel cheaper which is exactly how it should be in my opinion. As always examples of where the Tory obsession with privatising everything is to the detriment of our own people but other countries benefit are easy to come by , Abellio, who run East Midlands Railway, is owned 100% by the Dutch government. The profits made by over charging British people will be used to improve the Dutch railways which is so effective and efficient that it's the third busiest rail structure in the world. So who has won from this monstrosity? As always with Tory policy, it isn't the great British public.
We've had 12 years of progressively right wing policies and the country is in a complete mess. If you're happy allowing the rich and powerful to profit further whilst the rest of us see worsening standards of living and poorer public services then that's up to you. But myself and others on here would prefer a change because frankly it couldn't get much worse than the path we're headed down.
The problem we have Humbo is that you can't seem to grasp that Marxism is one extreme end of a spectrum of socialism. You are not intelligent enough to understand the differences between different ideologies and only see an "us" and "them" scenario. With anything on the left being different to your way of thinking and therefore must be evil. I'm not a Marxist, I'm sure many on here wouldn't identify as a Marxist either. Hell, despite what the right wing media have convinced you even Jeremy Corbyn wasn't a Marxist. You trying to lump all forms of socialism together as one "evil" is no different to someone claiming that anything on the right is evil because the Nazis were awful. Is Thatcherism evil because it's the same side of the political spectrum as Nazism?
As for states that we should aspire to then the Nordic Model, particularly that of Norway, would be something that I would be over the moon with. I don't mind having a mixed market economy. But I don't agree with natural monopolies like water companies being run for private gain. They should be run by the state with any profit made put back into investing in infrastructure for the people of the country and not in to dividends for the rich. I don't think the energy market should be private in the UK, particularly when companies like EDF are owned by foreign governments. As a rabid Brexiteer, the thought that your energy bills are paying for French pensions would likely make your head explode. I also don't think that oil and gas for example, which were formed naturally under the country that we all occupy, should be used to make billions of pounds for a small part of society. The money made from exporting and producing them should be used to benefit all of us. Essentially, the state should have a large ownership of key sectors, particularly ones like those mentioned above.
I'm quite happy for high taxation if it means we have good infrastructure, good schooling and a health service that works. You've fallen in to the trap from the right wing media of being convinced that foreigners/socialists/benefit claimants/the EU/transexuals/delete as appropriate are the cause of your misery. But ask yourself why has the economy grown since 2008 yet in real terms the majority of us are far worse off? The rich have become obscenely rich and it's to the detriment of the rest of us. As a socialist, I would like this to be addressed. I have no issue with people working hard and being successful and I invite them to enjoy their wealth. But something is incredibly wrong if we're the seventh biggest economy in the world but have people in full time work relying on food banks to feed themselves. So all I ask is that we rebalance the wealth within the country a bit more, stop the rich evading tax and make sure people are properly remunerated for their labour. Without the working and middle class, everything stops running so why are we only offered crumbs from those that sit at the top table?
Great post mate, but wasted on Humbo, who’s opinions are all fixed, finished and flawed.
Bizarre how you seem to claim Socialism as something only you understand. Once again take it back to its fundamentals Socialism is Socialism, an autocratic belief system based on envy and class warfare, the state owns everything including you. I don’t think you are the socialist that you claim, I would say you’re more a Social Democrat that subconsciously accepts the need for a form of capitalism for the greater good, but you seem to pick and choose struggling with the word interpretation, take the welfare state for example you claim this is explicably Socialism in action, it’s absolutely not there are many forms of the welfare state incorporated around the world regardless of economic ideology’s and by all accounts it was created by a capitalist! And as for a free at the point of service healthcare system… again not socialism in action! Take a look around the world there are not many places I can think of in a western society where healthcare isn’t classed as free at the point of service, and the mass majority that do have nothing to do with socialism. The NHS is obviously different with socialist means and principles which has led it to become the busted flush that it is. I’ve just recovered from a knee operation carried out at St Hughes exceptional service, I’d dread to think how long I’d be waiting to have it done at Diana Prince of Wales I would scrap the NHS in a heartbeat.
I’m not surprised that your now claiming Blair’s government was socialist and you call me a wind up merchant😂 go back and have a look at the Wilson and Callaghan governments if you really want to see socialism in action😬
Bizarre how you seem to claim Socialism as something only you understand. Once again take it back to its fundamentals Socialism is Socialism, an autocratic belief system based on envy and class warfare, the state owns everything including you. I don’t think you are the socialist that you claim, I would say you’re more a Social Democrat that subconsciously accepts the need for a form of capitalism for the greater good, but you seem to pick and choose struggling with the word interpretation, take the welfare state for example you claim this is explicably Socialism in action, it’s absolutely not there are many forms of the welfare state incorporated around the world regardless of economic ideology’s and by all accounts it was created by a capitalist! And as for a free at the point of service healthcare system… again not socialism in action! Take a look around the world there are not many places I can think of in a western society where healthcare isn’t classed as free at the point of service, and the mass majority that do have nothing to do with socialism. The NHS is obviously different with socialist means and principles which has led it to become the busted flush that it is. I’ve just recovered from a knee operation carried out at St Hughes exceptional service, I’d dread to think how long I’d be waiting to have it done at Diana Prince of Wales I would scrap the NHS in a heartbeat.
I’m not surprised that your now claiming Blair’s government was socialist and you call me a wind up merchant😂 go back and have a look at the Wilson and Callaghan governments if you really want to see socialism in action😬
You really are a caricature of modern society, only working to extremes where one side has to be 100% right and the other 100% wrong. Too opinionated and unwilling to learn or change those opinions despite being woefully ignorant on a whole host of topics. You're a human Twitter.
But the bit I've highlighted shows you genuinely have no idea what you're talking about and are trying to use words you don't understand. Autocracy is where one man/woman alone has absolute power over everything. If one man or ruler has absolute power and, if we take North Korea as an example, hordes the wealth for themselves and the ruling elite, then how is that social ownership of the means of production? It isn't. It is literally the opposite. You literally have no clue what some words mean.
Norway used their large oil reserves to create the Government Pension Fund of Norway, the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world. They now enjoy very low levels of poverty, great infrastructure, great education and it is classed as one of the happiest places to live in the world. The UK allowed the profit from oil and other industries to go in to private pockets and as such, the vast majority of the population has seen no benefit from the natural resources and products of the country they're part of. I'm not saying Norway is a solely socialist country and at no point have I said that. It has a democratic socialist political system in a mixed market economy which is where I would want the UK to move to. I accept (not subconsciously) that the state owning and running absolutely everything is not a good thing and that private ownership and business can help to speed up innovation and potentially drive down prices in some markets. But as a democratic socialist, I believe that the rights, working conditions and pay of the workers need to be protected by the state ahead of companies making profits. It's a flawed system if train companies (as a topical example) can continue to pay out large dividends to shareholders and large bonuses to CEOs but the people actually doing the work are becoming poorer in real terms because their pay isn't increased in line with inflation.
Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, you are unable to deal with subtlety and are unable to understand that a desire to move the UK political and economic system further left does not mean that I want the state to own everything.
A very good response, and a view which mirrors my own. I think in Jason’s first interview when he took over he used the phrase “a softer form of capitalism”.
Bizarre how you seem to claim Socialism as something only you understand. Once again take it back to its fundamentals Socialism is Socialism, an autocratic belief system based on envy and class warfare, the state owns everything including you. I don’t think you are the socialist that you claim, I would say you’re more a Social Democrat that subconsciously accepts the need for a form of capitalism for the greater good, but you seem to pick and choose struggling with the word interpretation, take the welfare state for example you claim this is explicably Socialism in action, it’s absolutely not there are many forms of the welfare state incorporated around the world regardless of economic ideology’s and by all accounts it was created by a capitalist! And as for a free at the point of service healthcare system… again not socialism in action! Take a look around the world there are not many places I can think of in a western society where healthcare isn’t classed as free at the point of service, and the mass majority that do have nothing to do with socialism. The NHS is obviously different with socialist means and principles which has led it to become the busted flush that it is. I’ve just recovered from a knee operation carried out at St Hughes exceptional service, I’d dread to think how long I’d be waiting to have it done at Diana Prince of Wales I would scrap the NHS in a heartbeat.
I’m not surprised that your now claiming Blair’s government was socialist and you call me a wind up merchant😂 go back and have a look at the Wilson and Callaghan governments if you really want to see socialism in action😬
No, socialism is where businesses, public services and the wider economy ("the means of production") are owned by society, the general public, you and me, so we're the ones who benefit from the value being produced. You've just had socialism and social democracy explained to you, ignored it and then again applied your warped and incorrect interpretation of it to the rest of your post.
By its nature socialism cannot be autocratic - an autocracy is where all the power in society is concentrated in the hands of one person (like in North Korea, which as mariner91 explained above isn't remotely socialist even if they may claim to be). Norway absolutely is an example of democratic socialism in action, take their North Sea Oil fund for example, where they've used the enormous wealth generated from selling oil to fund public spending (over 20% of their annual government spending comes directly from proceeds generated from the fund - https://web.archive.org/web/20.....-with-its-oil-money/). This is what we mean when we talk about socialism (imagine if Thatcher had done this with our North Seal Oil rather than wasting all the proceeds on tax cuts), not a bunch of mad dictators who claim to be socialist on the surface but are very obviously anything but.
Yet again you've chosen to witter on about things you have no idea about. There are absolutely loads of places in Western society where healthcare isn't free at the point of use (look at how many people go bankrupt in America because they're being charged tens / hundreds of thousands of dollars after an unexpected hospital stay without having had medical insurance). The NHS isn't on it's bottom because it's based on a socialist funding model, it's on it's bottom because the amount of money per capita being spent on it by the Conservative government has been reduced significantly over their 12 years in government, combined with increasing demand due to demographic shifts meaning there are now many more elderly people in the UK needing treatment than there were 10-20 years ago, owing to high birth rates in the 1950s and 60s:
If NHS funding had been sustained in real terms by the Conservative government then waiting times and staffing levels wouldn't be as poor as they currently are. They do this so they can point to underperformance to convince dimwits the NHS doesn't work, and needs further parts sold off or contracted out to parasitic private healthcare companies. Farming out healthcare services to private providers doesn't increase efficiency though - those companies will be seeking a profit. Under free market capitalism this supposedly happens because of competition causing competing businesses to innovate. Private healthcare isn't a free market thought, it's a monopoly meaning those providers have no incentive to make their business more efficient because there isn't any competition for them, so they simply cut corners to save money and make a bigger profit for their shareholders and in turn provide a worse service for patients than they'd have received under the NHS if they'd spent the same amount of money providing the service themselves.
You just can't understand nuance, it's mad. It's pretty obvious that New Labour on the whole were absolutely not a socialist government. Yes, there were some minor pieces of redistributive policy, but on the whole it was simply capitalism as usual with a few bits of socialist tinkering around the edges under Blair and Brown (intercourse me, imaging thinking saddling the NHS with loads of unaffordable PFI contracts they're still handcuffed to now is anything but capitalism on steroids). Anyway I don't even know why i've bothered writing all this, it's very clear you're a total lost cause and no amount of rational explanation is going to shift any of the right wing propaganda wedged in your skull.
edit: lmao needn't have bothered in the first place since mariner91's basically written the exact same post while i was writing this one
You really are a caricature of modern society, only working to extremes where one side has to be 100% right and the other 100% wrong. Too opinionated and unwilling to learn or change those opinions despite being woefully ignorant on a whole host of topics. You're a human Twitter.
But the bit I've highlighted shows you genuinely have no idea what you're talking about and are trying to use words you don't understand. Autocracy is where one man/woman alone has absolute power over everything.
So was Venezuela and Cuba never run by an Autocrat then? What about Xi Jinping a self appointed Autocrat or maybe these socialist by definition country’s are not socialist country’s🙄
No, socialism is where businesses, public services and the wider economy ("the means of production") are owned by society, the general public, you and me, so we're the ones who benefit from the value being produced. You've just had socialism and social democracy explained to you, ignored it and then again applied your warped and incorrect interpretation of it to the rest of your post.
By its nature socialism cannot be autocratic - an autocracy is where all the power in society is concentrated in the hands of one person (like in North Korea, which as mariner91 explained above isn't remotely socialist even if they may claim to be). Norway absolutely is an example of democratic socialism in action, take their North Sea Oil fund for example, where they've used the enormous wealth generated from selling oil to fund public spending (over 20% of their annual government spending comes directly from proceeds generated from the fund - https://web.archive.org/web/20.....-with-its-oil-money/). This is what we mean when we talk about socialism (imagine if Thatcher had done this with our North Seal Oil rather than wasting all the proceeds on tax cuts), not a bunch of mad dictators who claim to be socialist on the surface but are very obviously anything but.
Yet again you've chosen to witter on about things you have no idea about. There are absolutely loads of places in Western society where healthcare isn't free at the point of use (look at how many people go bankrupt in America because they're being charged tens / hundreds of thousands of dollars after an unexpected hospital stay without having had medical insurance). The NHS isn't on it's bottom because it's based on a socialist funding model, it's on it's bottom because the amount of money per capita being spent on it by the Conservative government has been reduced significantly over their 12 years in government, combined with increasing demand due to demographic shifts meaning there are now many more elderly people in the UK needing treatment than there were 10-20 years ago, owing to high birth rates in the 1950s and 60s:
If NHS funding had been sustained in real terms by the Conservative government then waiting times and staffing levels wouldn't be as poor as they currently are. They do this so they can point to underperformance to convince dimwits the NHS doesn't work, and needs further parts sold off or contracted out to parasitic private healthcare companies. Farming out healthcare services to private providers doesn't increase efficiency though - those companies will be seeking a profit. Under free market capitalism this supposedly happens because of competition causing competing businesses to innovate. Private healthcare isn't a free market thought, it's a monopoly meaning those providers have no incentive to make their business more efficient because there isn't any competition for them, so they simply cut corners to save money and make a bigger profit for their shareholders and in turn provide a worse service for patients than they'd have received under the NHS if they'd spent the same amount of money providing the service themselves.
You just can't understand nuance, it's mad. It's pretty obvious that New Labour on the whole were absolutely not a socialist government. Yes, there were some minor pieces of redistributive policy, but on the whole it was simply capitalism as usual with a few bits of socialist tinkering around the edges under Blair and Brown (intercourse me, imaging thinking saddling the NHS with loads of unaffordable PFI contracts they're still handcuffed to now is anything but capitalism on steroids). Anyway I don't even know why i've bothered writing all this, it's very clear you're a total lost cause and no amount of rational explanation is going to shift any of the right wing propaganda wedged in your skull.
edit: lmao needn't have bothered in the first place since mariner91's basically written the exact same post while i was writing this one
He certainly did and an equally good read it was too, maybe you can enlighten him with regards to the Blair government though instead of me, nothing subtle about this - “It won't surprise you to learn that I disagree that previous socialist governments haven't helped the country. There was less poverty, shorter waiting times and far less crime in 2008 than there was now”
As I say good post although I am intrigued as to all these places in western society where healthcare isn’t free? I noticed you used the USA which is strange because everyone knows what a mess their system is and no one would want that.
He certainly did and an equally good read it was too, maybe you can enlighten him with regards to the Blair government though instead of me, nothing subtle about this - “It won't surprise you to learn that I disagree that previous socialist governments haven't helped the country. There was less poverty, shorter waiting times and far less crime in 2008 than there was now”
As I say good post although I am intrigued as to all these places in western society where healthcare isn’t free? I noticed you used the USA which is strange because everyone knows what a mess their system is and no one would want that.
The US health system is a mess because of rampant capitalism and greed.
Americans make up 5% of the worlds population, yet take 50% of the worlds prescription drugs. It's just mind boggling the figures that are involved and of course, there are people sat back raking in untold wealth from this system.
We will go down this route as the Government of the day hate the NHS but will never say so as they know it would cause outrage among the voters. Won't stop them though as they will do it with stealth by the back door. They will and are running the NHS down to the point where they will say that only the private sector can save it.
Unfortunately, you and others like you will fall for it. You already are judging by your praise for a private hospital and your disparaging remarks about the NHS.
Like Chrisblor, I really don't know why I am even trying to put forward an argument for social democracy to someone who has no concept of anything other than their blinkered I'm alright Jack views.
He certainly did and an equally good read it was too, maybe you can enlighten him with regards to the Blair government though instead of me, nothing subtle about this - “It won't surprise you to learn that I disagree that previous socialist governments haven't helped the country. There was less poverty, shorter waiting times and far less crime in 2008 than there was now”
As I say good post although I am intrigued as to all these places in western society where healthcare isn’t free? I noticed you used the USA which is strange because everyone knows what a mess their system is and no one would want that.
You do not think the Tories want a similar system to the US ? There is money to be made in health, the greedy want their share of the pie. I have no truck with Blair and how he funded it but he and Brown got waiting lists right down, the Tories do not care about the sick and needy, to them they are the malingerous and greedy. We are becoming a country without compassion. Thatchers legacy
The US health system is a mess because of rampant capitalism and greed.
Americans make up 5% of the worlds population, yet take 50% of the worlds prescription drugs. It's just mind boggling the figures that are involved and of course, there are people sat back raking in untold wealth from this system.
We will go down this route as the Government of the day hate the NHS but will never say so as they know it would cause outrage among the voters. Won't stop them though as they will do it with stealth by the back door. They will and are running the NHS down to the point where they will say that only the private sector can save it.
Unfortunately, you and others like you will fall for it. You already are judging by your praise for a private hospital and your disparaging remarks about the NHS.
Like Chrisblor, I really don't know why I am even trying to put forward an argument for social democracy to someone who has no concept of anything other than their blinkered I'm alright Jack views.
So much confusion going here Ginny I don’t know where to start, but here goes… I am not and have never advocated an American health system! No one has been arguing as far as I’m aware for the pros and cons of social democracy! If you are that interested then go back a few pages and read the argument if you want to call it that, with regards to Socialism and this has led to even more confusion I hope to put to bed.
For the record I stand by my view that a country that aligns itself with socialism and identifys as socialism is a socialist country! The very credible world population review goes even further to say there is no criteria or official process for being named a socialist state… I even forwarded the link! Even Investopedia another very credible resource lists North Korea not only as a socialist country but as a Marxist-Leninist socialist economy.
Now it doesn’t matter how much Mariner and his chums kick and scream that this is not socialism they are still defined as socialist States. They can argue and post about public ownership of the means of production blah blah blah.. but they are talking about socialism in it purest form totally hypothetical, we know that no country as ever adopted full socialism in its entirety and this has caused the confusion.
I will just add that the closest any country got to full socialism was the Soviet Union, and guess what they ended up with an Autocrat..fancy that! which seems to be the running theme because every full on socialist regime that springs to mind ends up going the same way.
So much confusion going here Ginny I don’t know where to start, but here goes… I am not and have never advocated an American health system! No one has been arguing as far as I’m aware for the pros and cons of social democracy! If you are that interested then go back a few pages and read the argument if you want to call it that, with regards to Socialism and this has led to even more confusion I hope to put to bed.
For the record I stand by my view that a country that aligns itself with socialism and identifys as socialism is a socialist country! The very credible world population review goes even further to say there is no criteria or official process for being named a socialist state… I even forwarded the link! Even Investopedia another very credible resource lists North Korea not only as a socialist country but as a Marxist-Leninist socialist economy.
Now it doesn’t matter how much Mariner and his chums kick and scream that this is not socialism they are still defined as socialist States. They can argue and post about public ownership of the means of production blah blah blah.. but they are talking about socialism in it purest form totally hypothetical, we know that no country as ever adopted full socialism in its entirety and this has caused the confusion.
I will just add that the closest any country got to full socialism was the Soviet Union, and guess what they ended up with an Autocrat..fancy that! which seems to be the running theme because every full on socialist regime that springs to mind ends up going the same way.
The thought of you "putting confusion to bed" is hilarious, you are the most confused and befuddled poster on this forum. Marxist-Leninism is COMMUNISM. The clue is in the name, as Lenin was a self-identified communist. Furthermore, Marx's most famous work was "The COMMUNIST manifesto". It is an extreme far left political ideology right at the far end of the political spectrum of socialism which, as far as I can read on this forum, nobody supports or wants. It is what the right wing press want to make people believe all socialism is so that they see socialism as a dirty word. Evidently they've done a very comprehensive job on a particular section of society.
China is not an autocracy. Xi Jinping has engineered a position where his power is fairly entrenched but he does not make all the decisions alone like Kim Jong-Un They are run by the CCP (Chinese COMMUNIST Party) in an an authoritarian one party state. But even then have been nothing like a true socialist state for at least two decades now allowing free market policies to help them undercut other countries in manufacturing. At the same time as growing their economy enormously, it also exploited their working class making the ruling class and those higher in society fabulously rich at their expense. Hardly pure socialism at work. Equally, Fidel Castro was a Leninist who implemented a planned economy. That is still at one extreme end of the spectrum of socialism (communism) which you can't seem to grasp.
Chavez was an autocrat who tried to implement a socialist system. But just because one country has a crackpot dictator (although he was actually elected democratically multiple times) who makes a complete shitshow of running the country does not mean that fundamentally socialism is an "autocratic belief system". Autocracy and socialism clash as has been explained to you by multiple people. Again you use words you don't fully understand because you don't actually really understand much of what you write about. I suppose you can argue that would-be tyrants use populist socialist rhetoric to gather support from the working class and military in order to gain power and then abuse that power once in place but that is a separate argument which I feel certain you aren't capable of making coherently.
This whole discussion came about because I suggested Rick12 didn't properly understand what socialism is and has had his views clouded by what he reads and hears from the right wing press. If anything you've proved what a good job they have done because you seem totally incapable of understanding what a twisted and distorted view you have despite it being spelled out for you. I suppose if I were to be kind I could agree that you understand very vaguely what one extreme version of socialism is but then equally you're still claiming North Korea to be socialist which is ludicrous and so loses you any credibility. You're either a very, very good WUM or one of the most close-minded and simple people I've ever come across. I sincerely hope it's the former but I fear it's the latter and because of that there's really no point engaging in these discussions any more.
The thought of you "putting confusion to bed" is hilarious, you are the most confused and befuddled poster on this forum. Marxist-Leninism is COMMUNISM. The clue is in the name, as Lenin was a self-identified communist. Furthermore, Marx's most famous work was "The COMMUNIST manifesto". It is an extreme far left political ideology right at the far end of the political spectrum of socialism which, as far as I can read on this forum, nobody supports or wants. It is what the right wing press want to make people believe all socialism is so that they see socialism as a dirty word. Evidently they've done a very comprehensive job on a particular section of society.
Talk about going off on a tangent we didn’t even discuss (and I don’t want to thanks) communism v socialism! What’s hilarious is that you’re not even arguing with me now, the paragraph you highlighted is from 2 highly respected and credible sources, I mean come on man talk about being stubborn, you’re the comical Ali of the fishy😂
Quoted Text
China is not an autocracy. Xi Jinping has engineered a position where his power is fairly entrenched but he does not make all the decisions alone like Kim Jong-Un They are run by the CCP (Chinese COMMUNIST Party) in an an authoritarian one party state. But even then have been nothing like a true socialist state for at least two decades now allowing free market policies to help them undercut other countries in manufacturing. At the same time as growing their economy enormously, it also exploited their working class making the ruling class and those higher in society fabulously rich at their expense. Hardly pure socialism at work. Equally, Fidel Castro was a Leninist who implemented a planned economy. That is still at one extreme end of the spectrum of socialism (communism) which you can't seem to grasp.
I didn’t even say that China was an autocracy! But I love how YOU say it isn’t (I really hope you’re not a school teacher) I think it would do you the world of good if you could gain an understanding of the word interpretation!
Quoted Text
Chavez was an autocrat who tried to implement a socialist system. But just because one country has a crackpot dictator (although he was actually elected democratically multiple times) who makes a complete shitshow of running the country does not mean that fundamentally socialism is an "autocratic belief system". Autocracy and socialism clash as has been explained to you by multiple people. Again you use words you don't fully understand because you don't actually really understand much of what you write about. I suppose you can argue that would-be tyrants use populist socialist rhetoric to gather support from the working class and military in order to gain power and then abuse that power once in place but that is a separate argument which I feel certain you aren't capable of making coherently.
Ah…Fundamentally!! there’s the key maybe there is some hope for you after all, so can you now finally accept that a country like Venezuela an autocracy under Chavez was defined as a socialist state?
Quoted Text
]This whole discussion came about because I suggested Rick12 didn't properly understand what socialism is and has had his views clouded by what he reads and hears from the right wing press. If anything you've proved what a good job they have done because you seem totally incapable of understanding what a twisted and distorted view you have despite it being spelled out for you. I suppose if I were to be kind I could agree that you understand very vaguely what one extreme version of socialism is but then equally you're still claiming North Korea to be socialist which is ludicrous and so loses you any credibility. You're either a very, very good WUM or one of the most close-minded and simple people I've ever come across. I sincerely hope it's the former but I fear it's the latter and because of that there's really no point engaging in these discussions any more.
Again you arrogance is staggering! Do you even know anything about Rick personally to patronise him in such way? Yes I am claiming North Korea to be a socialist state because that’s how they define themselves, and this is how they have become to be universally recognised, fundamentally obviously not but fundamentally we have never had a socialist country.
The UK after the war was socialist and this is still an acceptable term to use even though by your own logic not fundamentally, not in the true meaning of the term anyway, you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.
I didn’t even say that China was an autocracy! But I love how YOU say it isn’t (I really hope you’re not a school teacher) I think it would do you the world of good if you could gain an understanding of the word interpretation!
So was Venezuela and Cuba never run by an Autocrat then? What about Xi Jinping a self appointed Autocrat or maybe these socialist by definition country’s are not socialist country’s🙄
You genuinely do not know what words mean. Literally all of your arguments have been taken apart by various people and you spout nonsensical gibberish in return using words you don’t understand and contradicting yourself regularly. I sincerely hope you’re on a wind up because nobody can be this stupid. I’m really not going to waste any more time on this, I’d get a more reasoned and knowledgable discussion if I were to debate the merits of grammar schools with the dog.
You genuinely do not know what words mean. Literally all of your arguments have been taken apart by various people and you spout nonsensical gibberish in return using words you don’t understand and contradicting yourself regularly. I sincerely hope you’re on a wind up because nobody can be this stupid. I’m really not going to waste any more time on this, I’d get a more reasoned and knowledgable discussion if I were to debate the merits of grammar schools with the dog.
I will take this as your white Flag thanks for the entertainment😂
Who do we think will be or who do we want out of who is left in the running?
It'll be Truss, the poundshop Maggie Thatcher.
Scarily though, she will take the country even further to the right than we are now. Either that or we will all die in a nuclear fireball.
She is just like Boris in many ways. Changing her views and her politics as and when it suits her progression. Her Dad is a socialist I read somewhere, and she started off as a Lib Dem and committed remainer.
Having had a long conversation with someone from Foreign Office the other day, I'm desperately hoping there is another major feck up in her campaign and Sunak becomes prime minister. How can I be desperate for that to happen? Surely, it's a case of biding the time with Truss and we'll get a Lab-Lib government in a couple of years. Well from what I heard, the shitshow hasn't even properly started yet. In some ways LT is competent - she reads the briefing papers, whereas Boris read feck all, and she also has supreme (but utterly misplaced) self-confidence. But her instincts are totally wrong (Boris's are actually sometimes right), her judgment is awry and policy will be bonkers (as per today's fiasco). The combination at PM is quite scary and my friend is in that place; he thinks Sunak has absolutely no chance and we are in for a complete wrecking ball in No 10...
Having had a long conversation with someone from Foreign Office the other day, I'm desperately hoping there is another major feck up in her campaign and Sunak becomes prime minister.
There's aspects to Sunak I really like . Someone was telling me the other day they were discussing his religious views on the radio station LBC and I liked what I heard. Despite some of his failings ( applies to all politicians) I like the fact he is a practising Hindu.
As a omnist ( someone who thinks all religions have truth to them but none have it spot on but believes in something divine)from experiences in life people who have genuine faith is always a bonus in this often fallen world.
I don’t think you need a 1st in PPE from Oxford to see that poor people in poor areas are being robbed to hand money to rich people in to areas.
Gas bills of £500 a month to give to shareholders at BP and Shell making billions in profit every quarter. Mega, multi-billion-pound contracts for public services outsourced companies via corrupt channels. People paid poverty wages, topped up by the tax payer, while the govt and huge companies hollow out employment protections and working conditions.
I don’t think you need a 1st in PPE from Oxford to see that poor people in poor areas are being robbed to hand money to rich people in to areas.
Yes but just because someone is a Tory I wouldn't automatically stereotype them as taking money from the poor to give to the rich . I note Liz Truss has aired different viewpoints to Sunak and if she wins the race to be the next pm I hope she delivers :
A Truss campaign source said: "Levelling up isn't about pitting one area of the country against another, or laying dividing lines between urban v rural, towns v cities.
"It is about unleashing growth and making sure every individual has the chance to thrive. Liz has a plan to create an aspiration nation based on equality of opportunity, and will deliver it in a conservative way."
Yes but just because someone is a Tory I wouldn't automatically stereotype them as taking money from the poor to give to the rich . I note Liz Truss has aired different viewpoints to Sunak and if she wins the race to be the next pm I hope she delivers :
A Truss campaign source said: "Levelling up isn't about pitting one area of the country against another, or laying dividing lines between urban v rural, towns v cities.
"It is about unleashing growth and making sure every individual has the chance to thrive. Liz has a plan to create an aspiration nation based on equality of opportunity, and will deliver it in a conservative way."
My 19-month-old daughter has more common sense than you. Please don’t vote.
My 19-month-old daughter has more common sense than you. Please don’t vote.
And I've often thought the same about you and probably more Ska Face . Streetwise I think your found wanting and had you gone into certain areas I think you would of been ripped apart.
Edit Iam no Tory or labour voter as you know but just want the best person in the job to help everyone albeit now it's either Truss or Sunak .In the future that could well be a labour prime minister in the next election.
Sunak and his wife and her family have aggressively avoided tax whilst racking up vast fortunes and I've just seen a video of him boasting about diverting funding from poor inner city areas to places like Tunbridge Wells. He says he's a man of God though so that's the important thing.
And I've often thought the same about you and probably more Ska Face . Streetwise I think your found wanting and had you gone into certain areas I think you would of been ripped apart.
Edit Iam no Tory or labour voter as you know but just want the best person in the job to help everyone albeit now it's either Truss or Sunak .In the future that could well be a labour prime minister in the next election.
Come on Rick….
Would ‘have’ Could have Should have
Would’ve Could’ve Should’ve
‘Of’ is not a verb.
And Liz Truss, is, if you do just half an hour’s research, ostensibly dense.
I know Chaos. When I saw the leaked video on Sunak today distributing wealth unfairly it was uncomfortable viewing and not the type of thing you want to hear from a possible future pm. He has his good points Iam sure though.
Sunak and his wife and her family have aggressively avoided tax whilst racking up vast fortunes and I've just seen a video of him boasting about diverting funding from poor inner city areas to places like Tunbridge Wells. He says he's a man of God though so that's the important thing.
I admit actions speak louder than words. We all sin though albeit some more than others.
If Jesus was here now, I'm pretty sure he'd describe the Tory Party leadership candidates as a 'Bunch of girl privates'. If the bible is to believed (ha!), Jesus wasn't a fan of money lenders or the rich, so I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be in favour of these politicians whose only aim in life is to ensure that the wealth keeps getting transferred ever-upwards.
Anyhow, the big problem at present isn't just the cluelessness of either of the candidates for PM, we also have to deal with the ineptitude of the Bank of England (wholly independent clownshoes) along with the 'opposition' who appear to have decided that George Osborne should be their economic guru, apparently. Keir 'no magic money tree economics' Starmer needs to learn some basic flipping economics. And start to oppose, or do, well, anything.
Enjoy the coming recession, lads (and lasses). It's going to be much worse than it needs to be because of any random combination of those mentioned in the rest of this post. They are all culpable.
And I've often thought the same about you and probably more Ska Face . Streetwise I think your found wanting and had you gone into certain areas I think you would of been ripped apart.
Edit Iam no Tory or labour voter as you know but just want the best person in the job to help everyone albeit now it's either Truss or Sunak .In the future that could well be a labour prime minister in the next election.
If Jesus was here now, I'm pretty sure he'd describe the Tory Party leadership candidates as a 'Bunch of girl privates'. If the bible is to believed (ha!), Jesus wasn't a fan of money lenders or the rich, so I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be in favour of these politicians whose only aim in life is to ensure that the wealth keeps getting transferred ever-upwards.
Anyhow, the big problem at present isn't just the cluelessness of either of the candidates for PM, we also have to deal with the ineptitude of the Bank of England (wholly independent clownshoes) along with the 'opposition' who appear to have decided that George Osborne should be their economic guru, apparently. Keir 'no magic money tree economics' Starmer needs to learn some basic flipping economics. And start to oppose, or do, well, anything.
Enjoy the coming recession, lads (and lasses). It's going to be much worse than it needs to be because of any random combination of those mentioned in the rest of this post. They are all culpable.
I believe you refer to Mark17 v 12. “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s" when asked about taxation and as far as I know Jesus did not support any political party. The truth in the Holy Bible comes out time and time again and all you have to do is recognise it. I believe a verse goes something like ' They have eyes but cannot see', but at least your comments about money lenders are correct.
Welcome to the fold of believers in the Holy Bible.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Mariner I've known people who have come from very tough backgrounds and have been shaped accordingly. I don't want to knock Ska Face but he often gives it out without any clue of people's backgrounds. In this life it's about trying to help others not put them down. We all have flaws that someone can find . I see some good in him but wish he wasn't so condescending at times.
As for being ripped apart I mean some people don't like arrogance, sarcasm and wouldn't stand for it. People I've known and worked with have come from very disadvantaged backgrounds eg mother is a alcoholic/ drug addict and the father they have never knew. Their personalities often have been dented and there is a lot of hurt and anger there. We all on this journey of life together . Ultimately we're all flawed people to some degree or another.
I don't want to go to deep here as it's hard to put into words unless you have experienced something directly often negative from a early age and growing up.
This world can be a cruel mean place(often it's dog eat dog).
It's why I think having hope is key in this often fallen world. In the end you can't give up the good fight and always have to try to make this a better world for everyone. We're all connected in the web of life.
Just realised that the circus is nearly over ....well....about to close and pack up before the new ringmaster moves it to Downing St...
Just seen a quick snippet on local news that has our local m.p's in opposite camps , Vickers behind Sunak and Nici behind Truss....doesn't fill me with confidence in the candidates that our own m.ps can't agree on one they think is best. Would have preferred a united opinion on who is best choice for us locally from our two m.ps
2023/24 DLWDDWDLLLWDLLLLWDDDWDLLWLDLLDWDDWLLDWLWLWL but not NLN 😁 2022/23LDWDWWDWLLDWWDLLLDLWLLWLWLLWDDLDWWDDDLLWDWLWLW 2021/22 WDWWWWDLWWWWLLLWLLDLWLLWWDWWWLWDLWWDWWWDLWD play offs WWW Promoted 🥳 2020/21 LLDWWLDLDWLWLLLDLWLLDLLDLLLWLLLDDDDWDDDLWLWLWL .. hello darkness my old friend 2019/20 WDLDWWLDLWWLLLDLDLDLDDWWDLLWDDWWL WLLW - ended 2018/19 LWDDLLLLLLWWDWLLLWDWLWWWWLLLLWWWWDLLLDDLLDLWLW Hello Scunny
Truss will apparently have a comprehensive energy plan in place 'within a week' if she gets the job. If it only takes a week, why hasn't she already made a plan and told us all about it? And why do I have a premonition that her plan involves British Cheese in some capacity.....
I know we live in an age of perpetual Tory and right wing press gaslighting, but people have got eyes and ears. Liz Truss has already shown herself, on dozens of occasions, to be a political and intellectual dunce. That’s not an opinion, it’s just observation. She’s uninformed, vapid, evasive, slightly absurd,unprincipled, inarticulate….etc etc
Anyone would be an improvement on Boris Johnson, who has burned this country to the ground, but this is not going to go well. Add that to the fact that this is possibly the hardest time in this nation’s history to be PM and you’re looking at a very short window of time before everyone can see, if they can’t already, that Liz Truss is way, way, way out of her depth and that if this is the best ‘talent’ that the Tories have to offer in terms of credentials, we are off to hell in a hand cart. It’s very obvious to me, that Liz Truss’ career should really not have seen her promoted beyond the level of an assistant manager at a local branch of Primark. At a f***ing push.
It’s amazing how far you can get in the Tory party if you’re willing to forego any pride, dignity or values that you once held. If you unswervingly toe the party line you can get right to the top despite being a complete air head.
Imagine the belly laughter all around the world when this news breaks. Johnson and now this dithering Thatcher cosplay wannabe is going to burn the rotting corpse of our reputation. The Russians will be fuming. If I was Putin I’d ask for my money back.
The other predictable thing from all this is Truss will come in an almost instantly freeze the energy cap as a popularity booster. Obviously after the energy companies have profited significantly and ordinary people have stressed for weeks over it.
Truss will need to do a lot more than that. The announced price cap for October is unaffordable for millions. Even if it was rolled back to the April price cap levels, millions will still struggle to pay given the high inflation and the increase in interest rates. Not to mention the businesses whose energy prices aren't capped which will just go under straight away without government support. If they are left to fail, we'll be seeing an even worse recession than is already on the cards which would mean even more job losses.
In fact, our only chance is if she does the exact opposite of whatever her first instinct is when encountering any sort of an issue.
I saw the report earlier that Priti Patel had resigned as Home Secretary and thought that this might perhaps be one silver lining to the cloud. And then I saw that Suella Braverman is expected to take over the role. intercourse me, we're doomed.
I know we live in an age of perpetual Tory and right wing press gaslighting, but people have got eyes and ears. Liz Truss has already shown herself, on dozens of occasions, to be a political and intellectual dunce. That’s not an opinion, it’s just observation. She’s uninformed, vapid, evasive, slightly absurd,unprincipled, inarticulate….etc etc
Anyone would be an improvement on Boris Johnson, who has burned this country to the ground, but this is not going to go well. Add that to the fact that this is possibly the hardest time in this nation’s history to be PM and you’re looking at a very short window of time before everyone can see, if they can’t already, that Liz Truss is way, way, way out of her depth and that if this is the best ‘talent’ that the Tories have to offer in terms of credentials, we are off to hell in a hand cart. It’s very obvious to me, that Liz Truss’ career should really not have seen her promoted beyond the level of an assistant manager at a local branch of Primark. At a f***ing push.
But she was brilliant in the hustings - she has great political talents of persuasion as long as she's speaking to very comfortably off pensioners, well some of them, about 0.2% of the population of the UK. Thankfully she can now govern properly with the strong backing of the 0.2% because we are out of the undemocratic grip of the European Union. Pensioners fecked our young people with Brexit and these few old farts are just finishing the job.
Some nasty stuff on here, sadly no surprise. Whatever your thoughts on Liz Truss and her new cabinet we really need this to work! And yet let’s be honest the majority on here will be hoping she fails miserably..warped mentality 😕
Some nasty stuff on here, sadly no surprise. Whatever your thoughts on Liz Truss and her new cabinet we really need this to work! And yet let’s be honest the majority on here will be hoping she fails miserably..warped mentality 😕
I don't think anyone genuinely wishes that she fails, it's more that we've seen a light at the end of this partygate/bozza tunnel ....but it's actually a train. Being driven by a moron, and weighed down by all these profits the energy companies are making that 'aren't a bad thing'. If we send her to meet Xi Jinping he'll assume it's a setup for a hidden camera show not a serious G7 leader.
Some nasty stuff on here, sadly no surprise. Whatever your thoughts on Liz Truss and her new cabinet we really need this to work! And yet let’s be honest the majority on here will be hoping she fails miserably..warped mentality 😕
I hope she succeeds, her record, and her campaign to be leader leave big doubts though, frightened to be questioned by the BBC even though this was agreed and she let her rival have a grilling is cowardly and classless. More of the same 12 years of Tories and counting a PM elected by around 80, 000 votes. And if she fails the same will happen again and we all pretend they had nothing to do with the screw ups of the previous government of which they were part of. Johnson was a national embarrassment and clearly was never fit to be PM let’s hope Truss is better, when you look at the talent available for ministerial position she will struggle, there has never been a worse more devious bunch of chancers
Praised the previous guy for all his good work, than told us how she was going to fix everything that was wrong. If the previous incumbent did such a good job, there would be nothing to fix.
It's the same old same old. "We will get the economy moving" "We will breed a high wage economy" (no sniggering at the back there) "We will sort out the NHS and build more hospitals" etc etc...
Exactly the same as the last one said, and the one before and the one before that. Only they never do.
She'll cut taxes, hammer the trade unions and working people, the rich will carry on getting richer and we can look forward to the next useless tosser to come along and say the same old guff again.
They’ve had twelve years and copulated it royally. The others aren’t much better. We had an alternative and everyone excrement their pants because they believe everything Sharon says on Facebook…
We all need it to work but sadly, nobody believes it…
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
Interesting article (from the right-wing Spectator):
In her first Prime Minister’s Questions, Liz Truss said that before she was anything else she was ‘on the side of people who work hard and do the right thing’. In response, Keir Starmer showed that Labour’s first task was to make clear that she was nothing of the sort.
And I suspect he will have the easier time of it. For a Prime Minister to portray herself as the faithful friend of Big Oil is – how to put this politely? – a ‘brave strategy’ at the best of times. It looks terrible when fuel prices and the national debt are in a race to see which can inflate the fastest.
As I wrote on these pages a few days ago, Labour will regroup after losing the sitting target of Boris Johnson. It will attack Truss for being in the pocket of big business and for taking risks with the nation's finances. The opposition’s mingling of critiques from the left and right would not normally hang together. However, they make sense in the crisis of 2022.
Starmer began by pointing to the unconfirmed Treasury estimate that fuel companies will make £170 billion excess profits over the next two years. Why should they be allowed to keep money Vladimir Putin has effectively gifted them when working families suffer?
When pollsters last asked the question in May, 63 per cent of respondents supported a windfall tax – including a majority of Conservative voters. I suspect more would today. The money for the astonishing subsidies we must find to hold fuel costs down has to come from somewhere, why shouldn’t the energy giants pay their share?
For all her admirable support for Ukrainian resistance to Russian imperialism, Truss and an influential section of Conservative opinion still does not understand that we are at war with Putin. It may be an economic rather than a shooting war, but it is war nevertheless, and no wartime prime minister ought to have the slightest hesitation in requiring contributions from powerful conglomerates engaged in unvarnished profiteering.
It is foolish to make predictions on the first full day in the office of a new Prime Minister, but you can guess how Truss will suffer if she does not change course. Unlike Johnson in the covid crisis, she will not be able to count on the opposition endorsing her policy. Whatever other troubles he faced during the pandemic, the last prime minister did not have to worry about Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the SNP going for the fundamentals of his lockdown strategy in news broadcast after news broadcast, day after day.
Truss will be exposed. She will find herself under constant attack by rivals delivering a simple populist message: don’t make working people pay big business’s bills.
Now I don’t doubt Conservative readers nodded along to her response in the Commons that Labour just wanted to raise taxes, as it always did.
The charge may once have had force, but it doesn’t wash today. Under Truss’s plans, voters will have to pay for the cost of the subsidies one way or another – either directly through higher taxes or indirectly through jacked-up fuel bills. The question is not should there be higher taxes, but who should be taxed.
Nor do I imagine that all the businesses staring at incredible rises in their costs think it is somehow ‘anti-business’ for Labour to suggest that the energy companies should be required to pay back profits they have made at the expense of everyone else
Then we come to the money markets. They are not remotely concerned about the danger of windfall taxes deterring investment. What could push us from an inflation crisis into a full-scale financial crisis is their belief that the government is losing control of borrowing. Truss looks as if she is ready to confirm their fears. She is proposing to fund fuel subsidies with borrowing and then fund tax cuts with borrowing, in particular by failing to go ahead with a corporation tax rise proposed by the former chancellor Rishi Sunak.
Add in the new administration’s reckless willingness to risk a trade war with the European Union over Northern Ireland, and we could soon be at the stage where the financial markets would prefer a Labour to a Conservative government. Don’t raise your eyebrows too high. Advisers to Rachel Reeves, the shadow chancellor, are claiming that significant sections of British business already do.
As I said, it is churlish and foolish to damn a new Prime Minister on her first full day in office. But her defence of the beneficiaries of Putin’s war, her careless unwillingness to protect the public finances, and her indifference to the burdens the crisis has played on the majority of voters suggest that she has already made a monumental blunder.
Interesting article (from the right-wing Spectator):
In her first Prime Minister’s Questions, Liz Truss said that before she was anything else she was ‘on the side of people who work hard and do the right thing’. In response, Keir Starmer showed that Labour’s first task was to make clear that she was nothing of the sort.
And I suspect he will have the easier time of it. For a Prime Minister to portray herself as the faithful friend of Big Oil is – how to put this politely? – a ‘brave strategy’ at the best of times. It looks terrible when fuel prices and the national debt are in a race to see which can inflate the fastest.
As I wrote on these pages a few days ago, Labour will regroup after losing the sitting target of Boris Johnson. It will attack Truss for being in the pocket of big business and for taking risks with the nation's finances. The opposition’s mingling of critiques from the left and right would not normally hang together. However, they make sense in the crisis of 2022.
Starmer began by pointing to the unconfirmed Treasury estimate that fuel companies will make £170 billion excess profits over the next two years. Why should they be allowed to keep money Vladimir Putin has effectively gifted them when working families suffer?
When pollsters last asked the question in May, 63 per cent of respondents supported a windfall tax – including a majority of Conservative voters. I suspect more would today. The money for the astonishing subsidies we must find to hold fuel costs down has to come from somewhere, why shouldn’t the energy giants pay their share?
For all her admirable support for Ukrainian resistance to Russian imperialism, Truss and an influential section of Conservative opinion still does not understand that we are at war with Putin. It may be an economic rather than a shooting war, but it is war nevertheless, and no wartime prime minister ought to have the slightest hesitation in requiring contributions from powerful conglomerates engaged in unvarnished profiteering.
It is foolish to make predictions on the first full day in the office of a new Prime Minister, but you can guess how Truss will suffer if she does not change course. Unlike Johnson in the covid crisis, she will not be able to count on the opposition endorsing her policy. Whatever other troubles he faced during the pandemic, the last prime minister did not have to worry about Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the SNP going for the fundamentals of his lockdown strategy in news broadcast after news broadcast, day after day.
Truss will be exposed. She will find herself under constant attack by rivals delivering a simple populist message: don’t make working people pay big business’s bills.
Now I don’t doubt Conservative readers nodded along to her response in the Commons that Labour just wanted to raise taxes, as it always did.
The charge may once have had force, but it doesn’t wash today. Under Truss’s plans, voters will have to pay for the cost of the subsidies one way or another – either directly through higher taxes or indirectly through jacked-up fuel bills. The question is not should there be higher taxes, but who should be taxed.
Nor do I imagine that all the businesses staring at incredible rises in their costs think it is somehow ‘anti-business’ for Labour to suggest that the energy companies should be required to pay back profits they have made at the expense of everyone else
Then we come to the money markets. They are not remotely concerned about the danger of windfall taxes deterring investment. What could push us from an inflation crisis into a full-scale financial crisis is their belief that the government is losing control of borrowing. Truss looks as if she is ready to confirm their fears. She is proposing to fund fuel subsidies with borrowing and then fund tax cuts with borrowing, in particular by failing to go ahead with a corporation tax rise proposed by the former chancellor Rishi Sunak.
Add in the new administration’s reckless willingness to risk a trade war with the European Union over Northern Ireland, and we could soon be at the stage where the financial markets would prefer a Labour to a Conservative government. Don’t raise your eyebrows too high. Advisers to Rachel Reeves, the shadow chancellor, are claiming that significant sections of British business already do.
As I said, it is churlish and foolish to damn a new Prime Minister on her first full day in office. But her defence of the beneficiaries of Putin’s war, her careless unwillingness to protect the public finances, and her indifference to the burdens the crisis has played on the majority of voters suggest that she has already made a monumental blunder.
What I would say is that it was the best PMQ’s since 2019 - and exactly like PMQ’s is supposed to be - composed, articulate questions that receive actual answers (some direct and some indirect) and an ideological debate, maybe with a little theatre thrown in. All we had with Johnson was deflection, bogus claims and lies…a refusal to answer anything, shouting and no actual debate or accountability. Absolutely good riddance to that sh1t show as it was patently ruinous and ugly I thought both leaders did well yesterday and I also thought it was classy of Starmer to approach her at the end to congratulate her and there was a warm body language between them with a pat of thanks from Truss - a dignified spectacle.
The plans to borrow money instead of a windfall tax to help people with this cost of energy crisis is going to backfire economically long term and politically short term.
Unsurprisingly, Truss appears to have selected the most expensive and wasteful option to fund capping energy prices. No windfall tax on the oil companies who are raking it in simply because of market conditions? Inexcusable. Perhaps something to do with her time working for Shell? Oh, not to mention the fact that her advisors are from the right-wing think tanks which don't disclose who funds them (i.e. it's probably the oil companies).
A worthwhile investment for the oil companies, bunging a few tens of millions at these 'think tanks' over the years which will now reap them tens of billions back.
I can't believe someone has actually quoted Richard Murphy as a credible source.
And I can't believe you've posted an ad hominem attack rather than a rebuttal of anything written in the link. If you've got something worthwhile to say, please put in a bit of effort.
Got ya. Only worthwhile contributions are those who accept your sources as indisputably correct.
I'll take note.
Not really that though is it. You haven’t said anything that adds to the discussion apart from a passive aggressive opening sweep disparaging someone referencing some info. Tell us what you think and we can talk about it
Fair enough. Just to clarify then- my thoughts are that I think the entire output of Richard Murphy adds nothing to this debate, in a similar way that pronouncements from David Icke add nothing when discussing who holds power in the world. Thus my original surprise that he was being quoted as a serious source.
Right. So all you’ve got is to restate your dismissive original point but in a slightly longer way, without any explanation of why you’re doing that, what you personally think and why, or, any alternative or better sources of theoretical, or political or social or scientific info.
I see the energy price freeze is going to be funded by borrowing and not a windfall tax, so basically, the power companies can carry on raking it in and any "shortfall" they have in their huge profits will be paid for by us.
Well you couldn't get any more Tory than that.
Mind you, Labour can't be trusted with the economy as only people with money know how to manage it. That's right, isn't it? Thank fook the Labour Party isn't in government, or we'd be really screwed.
I see the energy price freeze is going to be funded by borrowing and not a windfall tax, so basically, the power companies can carry on raking it in and any "shortfall" they have in their huge profits will be paid for by us.
Well you couldn't get any more Tory than that.
Mind you, Labour can't be trusted with the economy as only people with money know how to manage it. That's right, isn't it? Thank fook the Labour Party isn't in government, or we'd be really screwed.
But it is going to be funded by tax rises. Just not tax rises on big oil and gas or the pensions of the wealthy old farts that voted for Liz Truss. It will funded by "tax" rises, in future energy costs, on young working people, on nurses and other health workers, on young police officers and other emergency service staff, on top of their student loans costs - yes nurses and police have to have degrees these days, and "tax" rises for all our young working people. Of course, it is they that will have to pay the tax to clean up the shite from our rivers and beaches and the billions it will take to make up for years of under-investment by private water companies.
Truss said yesterday Labour are the party of tax rises, yes they are are - the fair taxes on windfall profits of big oil. The bills of privatised monopolistic utility companies and other essential services are still taxes - just highly regressive ones, whereby the poorest pay the biggest proportion of their income on them.
It looks like Liz is the only person in the country who isn’t in the Anti-Growth Coalition. Her own separate club (members: 1) is the shïttest outside of DN15.
It looks like Liz is the only person in the country who isn’t in the Anti-Growth Coalition. Her own separate club (members: 1) is the shïttest outside of DN15.
But if she is U-turning and raising corporation tax then doesn't she become an end of level boss of the Anti-Growth Coalition?
Maybe she'll cross the floor and rejoin the Lib Dems.
"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
It’s embarrassing enough to sack your chancellor and effectively your running mate after a month in charge but to call him back on a transatlantic flight from a meeting of all of his international collegaues to sack him is another level embarrassing.
Another U-turn planned for today I see, if you keep U-turning long enough does it become a roundabout?
Or maybe it's getting spicy and she's going to start sacking people......if we fill the cabinet with cameras and treat it like the big brother house maybe we can sell the TV rights off for enough money to cover the pensions fiasco?
I knew she'd be useless, but this is beyond anything I ever imagined.
The problem is that the bar has been set so low in politics, that almost anyone has a shot of being PM now. Maybe a football style fit and proper test should be introduced for future leaders. That's if anyone fit and proper can be found to administer such a system.
I suspect she will be eased aside and someone appointed to oversee their demise like Michael Howard was last time they imploded. Said person will be chosen and put in place by MP's, bypassing the party members, who clearly chose someone who most benefitted them, rather than the party and the country. After all, she only got 50 votes from her fellow MP's in the first round of voting last time, but somehow managed to become leader, despite only 14% backing at the outset.
The Tories know their goose is cooked and will try to keep their impending election defeat as small as possible.
How much longer can they honestly go on without calling an election.
They can't call one now as they would be annihilated at the polls. They will hang around until they have repaired some of the damage to have a fighting chance.
Truss wont make it to next election, whenever that is. Doubt she will make it to xmas. She's toast.
It's worrying times, the Tories have been an absolute mess since the referendum and it sums up the state of politics in this country that they didn't lose the last election. Starmer isn't the most popular with the electorate, rightly or wrongly, due to his position at the CPS when Saville was investigated.
Part of me still thinks the Tories would get the most seats and a chance to form a coalition. Labour needs Scotland and Sturgeon is too popular up there.
How much longer can they honestly go on without calling an election.
Turkeys don't vote for Christmas and tory MP's will want to hang on to their salaries and perks as long as they can; knowing they'll be jobless come the next election
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Turkeys don't vote for Christmas and tory MP's will want to hang on to their salaries and perks as long as they can; knowing they'll be jobless come the next election
Turkeys do vote for Tories though!
Just one week without the Tory party flipping something up would be nice.
It's worrying times, the Tories have been an absolute mess since the referendum and it sums up the state of politics in this country that they didn't lose the last election. Starmer isn't the most popular with the electorate, rightly or wrongly, due to his position at the CPS when Saville was investigated.
Part of me still thinks the Tories would get the most seats and a chance to form a coalition. Labour needs Scotland and Sturgeon is too popular up there.
You are literally the only person other than Boris Johnson who has ever mentioned that. There are many valid reasons he isn’t overly popular but this isn’t even close to being one.
It's worrying times, the Tories have been an absolute mess since the referendum and it sums up the state of politics in this country that they didn't lose the last election. Starmer isn't the most popular with the electorate, rightly or wrongly, due to his position at the CPS when Saville was investigated.
Part of me still thinks the Tories would get the most seats and a chance to form a coalition. Labour needs Scotland and Sturgeon is too popular up there.
Sturgeon isn't as popular as she once was and Starmer is gaining ground in Scotland.
Starmer is a watered down Tory, just as Blair was, but if he can get into No 10 with a large majority and get PR over the line, then politics in this country would be much better going forward.
Starmer is a watered down Tory, just as Blair was, but if he can get into No 10 with a large majority and get PR over the line, then politics in this country would be much better going forward.
There’s absolutely no chance, if the polls are correct, that Labour will go for PR in their first term.
The PR pledge needs clarifying (admittedly it only got passed by the Conference a fortnight or so ago) but it has potential to be an effective vote winner. PR has to be the way forward or we’ll be at the mercy of the 1922 comittee again at some point in the next 15/20 years. The abolition of the Lords is interesting too.
Votes passed by delegates at conference aren’t binding, so there’s no way Starmer will touch PR given that FPTP will put him in the big seat.
He’ll offer little and deliver less. Even this much feted GB Energy Firm pledge has turned out to be little more than a vehicle for putting public money in private hands.
Unfortunately, with Rachel Reeves in No. 11, we'll see Osbornomics Mk. II. There Is No Alternative, we'll be told. She's bloody clueless as we saw back during Miliband's leadership. Another PPE-er and former banker who is fundamentally Labour in name only and would have been much more comfortable in blue during the era before the Tories went absolutely batshit.
There's surely no way they can be worse than the Tory shitshow which has been ongoing for so many years, but I'm not convinced they will be better enough to actually make a difference to the way the economy is heading.
Hope I'm wrong, but I won't hold my breath...
We won't get PR, not a chance. Unless I've misread Starmer, he'll get a whopping big majority and do very little with it. Tinkering around the edges, probably achieving less than we saw during the New Labour era and they wasted their mandate to do so much more. There is much more to rebuild now even than after the Thatcher era, but it will be a tougher environment in which to take power (no more oil money to fall back on) and I doubt Starmer and his clique have the courage to take the necessary bold action required.
New leader early next week Will not be one of recent contenders will be a resurrected ‘safe pair of hands ‘ who is still relatively well regarded to effectively act as caretaker before inevitable general election loss . Appointed to stop meltdown in gilt market which will start again 8.00am Monday morning. Candidates 1 Winston Churchill 2 William Hague Can’t think of anybody else who fits that description
The problem is…..not only is she incompetent and way, way, way out of her depth (she’d be struggling to ascend beyond the level of sales assistant at Primark), but that, every time she opens her mouth, she makes things even worse; so appalling is her inarticulacy, hesitance and weapons-grade stupidity.
Some nasty stuff on here, sadly no surprise. Whatever your thoughts on Liz Truss and her new cabinet we really need this to work! And yet let’s be honest the majority on here will be hoping she fails miserably..warped mentality 😕
She has been worse than even the most pessimistic on here thought, her chancellor has gone her Home Secretary is being ignored because she is completely out of her depth and her health Secretary is a laughing stock, nearly everyone in the country except hedge fund managers, bankers and big oil companies are worse off. She has been a disaster and absolutely indefensible
Seems that Jeremy Hunt is essentially the PM now and the policies that Truss was elected for one month ago by a handful of Conservative members have all been reversed leading to a new age of austerity to appease 'the markets'. Growth, growth, growth eh? What a shower.
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"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
Yep, a man that has fought and lost 2 leadership contests and is as far away from Truss as you can get politically inside the same party, is now the de facto PM.
Truss is now merely a figurehead, a month into her tenure.
They desperately want her gone but to do so would bring more calls for a general election; something even some Tories are now admitting is needed, so they can regroup with a period in opposition. Problem being that if they do it now, they will be so obliterated that they may not recover for a decade, if at all.
I had to laugh at John Redwood, a Truss supporter, who said that she needs to get some of the "talent" in the party into her cabinet.
[quote=799]Yep, a man that has fought and lost 2 leadership contests and is as far away from Truss as you can get politically inside the same party, is now the de facto PM.
Truss is now merely a figurehead, a month into her tenure.
They desperately want her gone but to do so would bring more calls for a general election; something even some Tories are now admitting is needed, so they can regroup with a period in opposition. Problem being that if they do it now, they will be so obliterated that they may not recover for a decade, if at all.
I had to laugh at John Redwood, a Truss supporter, who said that she needs to get some of the "talent" in the party into her cabinet.
What fooking talent?/quote]
It's so they can make a film about this summer - Four Chancellors and Funeral...
At some point there will be a documentary made about how this country managed to completely wreck the NHS while all these idiots cared about was Brexit and creating some kind of post-brexit tax haven. There are 47,000 nursing vacancies and 10,000 doctor vacancies at the moment and social care has collapsed in some part of the country. I've witnessed it first-hand over the last few weeks and it's only going to get worse - far worse. Our kids will wonder why we did it, why did we vote like Turkeys for Christmas?
I know we all said she'd make us a laughing stock, but when even the supposedly unbiased BBC has articles about how we're a blydi laughing stock you know it's irreversible :
One UK diplomat told me: "We are a laughing-stock. People come up to me and ask: 'What is going on in your country?' There is a grim fascination in it all. But when I want to talk about substance, they just say, "let's wait until things have settled down and there's a plan.'"
Foreign diplomats and ministers say they miss the role the UK used to play on the world stage, saying they long to see what some describe as "the Britain of old", that provided a calm, steady presence on the world stage.
Britain was in the past seen by diplomats as one of those countries that followed due process and the rule of law and tended to be on the sensible side of any argument.
One European foreign minister told me this weekend: "Wake up Britain! The world is on fire. We need you."
Tory MP's are very, very soon going to have to make a decision on their future.
They either give a resounding vote of no confidence in Truss and push for a General Election, knowing they can (probably falsely) campaign on the grounds of 'hey, I went against my party line because it was the right thing to do'. That might give them a chance, if only a smidgen, at the voting booth of keeping their gravy train seat.
Or they can bury their heads in the sand for the next two years, knowing full well that they'll have absolutely no chance of keeping their seats in 2024.
If I was a careerist Tory MP, I would be screaming loud and clear my vote of no confidence, then campaigning to high heaven on it at the polls. Be it as a Tory or an independent candidate, either way distancing myself as much as possible from this shower.
Future generations will look back in absolute disbelief that this man was soundly beat in a GE by Boris flipping Johnson!
I don’t think they will though. I think they will look back and see him as the leader of the opposition, holding the balance of power with Tory rebels, that failed to stop a hard Brexit and allowed BJ to get a thumping majority to take us out of the EU, EEA and customs union. He is just as deluded as Truss. The largest most successful and least unequal economy in the world is the EEA collective. The quality of life indices top 10 has only one non EEA country in it - New Zealand which has more sheep than people. For all the nice things he talked about in that video are completely undeliverable and unaffordable with the economic hit of being outside the EEA.
Yeah, but at least we can look forward to higher energy bills after April. Brilliant. Just what we all need.
Ominous how Hunt's comments are foreshadowing cuts to public services. These fornicators are determined to stick us deep into recession and we'll be told that we can't afford to look after the nation's health without assistance from those lovely American insurance companies...
Hunt, of course, was very much heading us in that direction during his term as Health Secretary so he'll be full steam ahead with that now.
Another round of austerity it is then. Us plebs will be the ones to pay for the fook ups as usual.
The help for energy bills after April is to be targeted toward the poorest apparently, so if you have more than 2 bob in the bank, expect your energy bills to soar, while the energy companies keep on paying huge dividends to their shareholders.
Hunt can then finish what he started and privatise the NHS.
I knew Truss would be useless but the levels she’s achieved are astounding. Truly astounding.
Hurtling towards recession, austerity and a man who is opposed to the very notion of a public health care system, mainly because he can become extremely rich from a privatised health care world is now in complete control of the country’s finances…I mean what could possibly go wrong.
I’m not even sure Truss will see the week out…although I think about it and believe she is a great foil for the disgrace that Hunt will be as chancellor…
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
When Truss goes then new PM could appoint a new chancellor and that would make it 5 chancellors in less than a year. Fiscal policy, monetary policy budgets what a joke. They haven't got a clue what to do, nor how to help the poor and needy, fix the NHS, transportation, etc. but they know how to keep the rich happy.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Another round of austerity it is then. Us plebs will be the ones to pay for the fook ups as usual.
The help for energy bills after April is to be targeted toward the poorest apparently, so if you have more than 2 bob in the bank, expect your energy bills to soar, while the energy companies keep on paying huge dividends to their shareholders.
Hunt can then finish what he started and privatise the NHS.
As scary as the prospect of Hunt steering the economy and then steering the country is, I just can't see it. Not for any real length of time anyway.
Truss is dead in the water. The Tories can't realistically get rid of her and go back to the membership for a new leader/PM, it's too lengthy and the confidence in such method is non-existent. Any new leadership will have to come from MP's votes. Sunak would be best placed to win that but I think he's too smart to even run for it. It's an unrecoverable position in the short-term for any Tory.
Sunak's only 42, if he's smart enough he'll sit in the background and ridding himself of as much of the blame as possible, it's career suicide to associate yourself with anything coming out of Tory HQ at the minute. If he plays the long game he could be PM within 10 years easily. Labour will get a free hit for the first 4-5 years after any election, I dare say the smell of this administration will be strong enough to keep Labour in power for a second term too.
I don't think Hunt will be voted in by his fellow MP's. He might be seen as a safe pair of hands in comparison to Truss but he's failed twice in leadership contests, he's largely unpopular with the electorate and his attitude towards the NHS could well be a crucial factor in any general election.
My money would be on Ben Wallace, largely under the radar but liked in the party - in no small part thanks to his role in the Ukraine crisis. Sensible enough to distance himself from both Boris at the right time and by keeping his cards close to this chest with regards running.
Whoever gets it will only be keeping it warm for a short time though. If we get to 2023 with a Tory Government I'll be very surprised.
What that would mean for you, me and everyone else in the real world is anyone's guess. I'd hope that a Labour regime would bring about a true keynesianism approach to the economy. Creating stimulus through investment, we're going to borrowing for a flipping long time so we might as well spend it smartly. Tax cuts at the level where people will spend it, hopefully because they'll have money thanks to the creation of wealth through investment. If done right, the infrastructure of the country will be significantly improved as a result too. Protecting of current public services and re-nationalising of others would be a good move also.
Jeez, I think there needs to be a turnstile fitted on the Tory side of the house.
Another pathetic individual comes and goes and the favourite to take over is none other than Grant Shapps, who as Transport Secretary came up with the world beating idea of making cyclists have registration plates and insurance and be subject to speed limits, just like cars.
The simple solution of course would be more cycle lanes, but fook that, they cost money.
Grant Shapps is a petrol head and owns several expensive cars.
As ridiculous it is to bring back Grant ‘pyramid selling under an alias’ Schapps, I am delighted to see the back of hateful Suella Braverman, who made the spiteful bully Pritti Patel look like Florence f*cking Nightingale. What a load of utter, unhinged, baneful b0llocks she talks, with that ludicrous ‘topper yesterday. Sounded like Humbercod! When will this hideous bin fire burn out ?
They were going to remove the whip from dissenters for tonight’s vote, changed their mind at the last minute because they wouldn’t get the numbers and the Chief Whip has now resigned. She’ll be gone tomorrow.
The two local MP's voted for fracking as expected even though fracking would be outlawed in the conservatives manifesto. Absolute non entities & doing zero for the local area. Truss abstained ,total embarrassment.
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
The whole lot’s falling apart tonight, VERY amusing.
It's fooking hilarious.
Puts me in mind of that Steve Coogan sketch where he is desperately trying to get back on TV, pitching ever more ridiculous ideas for programmes. Monkey tennis?
They are hanging by a thread and trying everything they can to cling on to power.
It shows what a complete lack of respect they have for us voters, we are below them. Dont give a toss for us and all they care about is their own position
Another new day dawns for the government. I wonder how many sackings and resignations will happen and the ultimate, will Truss resign or be sacked by her fellow tories.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
At some stage, the shitshow will have to end, but it's difficult to see how that will happen. I don't think Truss has the wherewithal to defenestrate herself - she'll surely hang around cosplaying PM and achieving nothing just as she did when she was pretending to be Foreign Secretary. The fact that the incumbents of the two most senior ministerial roles below PM have both gone due to incompetence in just a handful of weeks would normally be enough for any PM to resign but as Johnson showed, this current batch of Tories are about 95% brass neck and just don't give a excrement about the norms. The gutless sheep of the parliamentary party such as Vickers and the appalling careerists like Nici who shouldn't be near Parliament will never do the right thing so our only hope is that the 1922 committee change the rules so somebody marginally less useless can 'take over'.
Obviously, what is actually needed is a General Election but I don't think there will be enough Tory MPs willing to put the needs of the country ahead of their own party or careers (when have they ever?), so a vote of no confidence in the chamber won't happen.
These scumbags are just playing at it, they think it’s a playground, not a government.
If you look at the bullying, aside from it being abhorrent, I’m also worried about the strength of someone that allows themselves to be bullied by Walter the Softy…
But in all seriousness, it’s disgraceful and we truly are a laughing stock. Even the most staunch, blind tory can see this is a joke, a disgrace and a true shambles…
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
Oh, and now Peston is reporting that the fracking confidence vote that we were told last night wasn't a confidence vote, actually was a confidence vote, despite the fact that a minister said it wasn't one in Parliament.
So any Tory who abstained will get a slap on the wrist. Perhaps this will inspire them to boot the shambolic government out? Nah, doubt it. Turkeys, Christmas and all that.
From what I gather, the 1922 committee have set the bar at 33%. If a third of Tory MP's, about 120, lodge letters of no confidence, instead of the usual 15%, then they will change the rules so she can be ousted.
That clip I posted of Charles Walker does indicate that there are some Tory MP's willing to stand up and be counted, but I suspect that as he is leaving Parliament at the next election, he has nothing to lose.
I did have a wry smile when he mentioned that MP's are now fearing for their jobs and whether they will be able to pay their mortgages should they be booted out of office. Welcome to our world mate.
From what I gather, the 1922 committee have set the bar at 33%. If a third of Tory MP's, about 120, lodge letters of no confidence, instead of the usual 15%, then they will change the rules so she can be ousted.
That clip I posted of Charles Walker does indicate that there are some Tory MP's willing to stand up and be counted, but I suspect that as he is leaving Parliament at the next election, he has nothing to lose.
I did have a wry smile when he mentioned that MP's are now fearing for their jobs and whether they will be able to pay their mortgages should they be booted out of office. Welcome to our world mate.
i saw our local MP in town a few days ago, i now take pleasure in the fact that when a GE is coming, she will be out on her bottom.
From what I gather, the 1922 committee have set the bar at 33%. If a third of Tory MP's, about 120, lodge letters of no confidence, instead of the usual 15%, then they will change the rules so she can be ousted.
That clip I posted of Charles Walker does indicate that there are some Tory MP's willing to stand up and be counted, but I suspect that as he is leaving Parliament at the next election, he has nothing to lose.
I did have a wry smile when he mentioned that MP's are now fearing for their jobs and whether they will be able to pay their mortgages should they be booted out of office. Welcome to our world mate.
13 publicly calling for her resignation so far. Needs a big jump for the 1922 committee threshold, but there will be a natural tipping point where even the useless sheep like Vickers and Nici end up putting letters.
Oh, and now Peston is reporting that the fracking confidence vote that we were told last night wasn't a confidence vote, actually was a confidence vote, despite the fact that a minister said it wasn't one in Parliament.
So any Tory who abstained will get a slap on the wrist. Perhaps this will inspire them to boot the shambolic government out? Nah, doubt it. Turkeys, Christmas and all that.
This farce is only further compounded by Truss abstaining on what was a vote of confidence in her. You quite literally couldn't make it up. If you wanted to see what satire on a massive cocktail of drugs looks like, it would still be well below the bar now set.
No. 10 is claiming that she did vote by passing through the lobby, but didn't scan the electronic tag to indicate she had. Whether this is the truth or not, I don't know.
It's great entertainment, until you remember that they're playing games with lives of people. All this preening, posturing and peacocking they're doing with each other is amazing to watch from afar. I laughed like a bloody drain at Braverman's meltdown the other day.
But ultimately they're sleep-walking us into a very, very disturbing and scary winter of severe discontent. With every minute that passes by with them holding onto any power, the situation becomes darker.
I said a few days ago that I reckon Labour get a free spin of the next 5 years because this administration is so utterly useless that people won't forgive them. But I know think you're talking generations before the Conservatives can be viewed as slightly credible. The Lib Dem cozying up to the Tories in 2010 all but destroyed them. They lost 85% of their seats at the next GE as a result of that and still haven't recovered. The damage to the Tories could be completely unrecoverable.
No. 10 is claiming that she did vote by passing through the lobby, but didn't scan the electronic tag to indicate she had. Whether this is the truth or not, I don't know.
Saw that. Maybe it's just me, but I'd have thought that if you were faced with a vote that's questioning you and your existence in that role, you would bloody make sure you scanned the tag and then double checked, then once more for good measure. I'm also pretty sure that Rees-Mogg and the other cretins that were dragging people into the No lobby would have made sure of it too.
Or they could just be following the trend of the last 12 years and just pedaling out utter lies and being so arrogant to think anyone would see through it.
Well at least Dorries is now realising their must be a General Election...
Oh, just after Boris is offered the PM job again and another leadership election is held.
This is the bloke who started all the chaos and the flipping idiotic Tory membership who voted for Truss in the first place.
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She is so, so loyal to Boris.
The sooner we get a GE the better now. We should get 2 terms of Labour which would give me some reassurance about the kind of world my children become adults in.
Starmer’s announced to the TUC this morning that it’ll be austerity 2.0 and working people are going to have to shoulder another financial collapse in the name of “sound finances”, so maybe there’ll be a GE after all now that Captial’s B Team are suitably neutered.
So we've got the likes of Lia Nici and Martin Vickers, literally the most useless people on the planet, deciding who leads our country into the most challenging period it has faced for generations.
Truss Resigns Surely, surely, they have to call an election.
I think they are going to try ride it out, however tumultuous, until as close to December 2024 as possible.
Calling an election means they lose inside information for their banker mates, their associates on Tufton Street and for those cling ons like Vickers and Nici, they lose their livelihood. A landslide defeat is inevitable now; it is just a case of when we get the chance to inflict it.
The only chance we have of getting a snap election under next weeks leader is if they feel that their constituency seat is secure. They may then decide to let an election flush out the dead wood and begin trying to mount some form of credible opposition.
But I don't think that will happen, it is just a case of how chaotic things will be under our third PM of the year and waiting until 2024.
Looking at the others I agree with you. However, who would want the job knowing that you will lose the next election, something you wouldn't want on your CV?
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
The markets seem to be ok with Hunt at the moment so I think the PM will be someone likely to retain Hunt as chancellor.
.
This is the true state of the shitshow. The country is completely reliant on the reaction of 'the markets' to each and every announcement made by the current government. Capitalism eh?
"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
This is the true state of the shitshow. The country is completely reliant on the reaction of 'the markets' to each and every announcement made by the current government. Capitalism eh?
Windfall tax on big oil to fund the energy price cap is one quick fix. The other big black hole is social care now the NI rise has gone. I've always thought Capital Gains Tax should be tweaked to fund that. At the moment "house farmers" make ten of thousands untaxed and more per year using the - buy house, says its main residence - refurb and sell, and the profit is not taxed. Also the main residence has a £1 million nil rate threshold for Inheritance Tax, hundreds of thousands can accumulate to a family tax-free. Governments have shied away from creating Daily Wail headlines about taxing peoples homes I expect. At the moment though, a millionaire dies of a heart attack and the kids get a windfall tax-free from their house. A parent in a modest 3 bed semi in Cleethorpes contracts dementia and their kids lose everything save the last £25k to care costs.
Windfall tax on excess profits is a must and a no brainer. I would consider a financial transaction tax of 5p in the pound as well. Of course, if we’d not brexited, we’d have had plenty to pay for the COL crisis with money left over. 5% cuts to GDP every year have left a huge cut to national revenue. Anyone who knows anything about economics knows that imposing economic sanctions on yourself is a hideous act of self harm. The people who sold you lies about the impact of leaving the biggest free trade area in the world have caused this, and most are afraid to admit it and talk about it.
I’m quite concerned that there’s enough low grade 2019 entrant MPs to get enough votes to surpass the 100 vote threshold and then enough doddery morons in the wider party to vote Johnson back in.
I’m quite concerned that there’s enough low grade 2019 entrant MPs to get enough votes to surpass the 100 vote threshold and then enough doddery morons in the wider party to vote Johnson back in.
If he gets on the ballot I'm pretty sure he'll win. But quite a lot of talk that a lot of Tory MP's who don't support him would then quit the party and go independent. It could actually still get worse for them yet.
He could be re-elected and then have a whole new set of scandals from November and his standards committee hearing and then where do we find ourselves. There won’t be 40ish Conservative MPs resigning the whip to collapse the government unfortuntely.
Just imagine needing to instill a sense of stability in a country and a governing political party and seeing the solution being bringing back the leader who resigned a couple of months ago in disgrace after 50+ members of his government resigned which in turn lead to a replacement who tanked the country and was the shortest lasting PM ever. And if he does become PM again it will be at the same time as he stands in front of parliamentary enquiry into whether he lied to parliament or not.
Them 100,000 tory members who elected Liz Truss will be frothing at the mouth with delight at the thought of getting the chance to re-elect Boris Johnson.
"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
I'm actually feeling quite nostalgic about Theresa May at the moment. And David Cameron was a decent bloke really. John Major was great - must have been because he likes cricket alot. I've erased the one before that from my mind, but Ted Heath was an absolute stalwart, great jazz as well - or maybe that's a different Ted Heath...
I'm actually feeling quite nostalgic about Theresa May at the moment. And David Cameron was a decent bloke really. John Major was great - must have been because he likes cricket alot. I've erased the one before that from my mind, but Ted Heath was an absolute stalwart, great jazz as well - or maybe that's a different Ted Heath...
Cameron started all this sh1te by trying to unite the Tories over Europe. It all went t1ts up from there and they are even more fractured than ever.
He then dropped it in the lap of the useless Theresa May and did a runner. We have been paying for it ever since. Apart from the rich 1 per cent that is. They are raking it in.
And Boris? Fiddling while Rome burns and getting paid big bucks for speaking engagements whilst still supposedly in office. Conspicuous by his absence as usual, but if there is a sniff of getting back in No 10, he will magically reappear.
Cameron started all this sh1te by trying to unite the Tories over Europe. It all went t1ts up from there and they are even more fractured than ever.
He then dropped it in the lap of the useless Theresa May and did a runner. We have been paying for it ever since. Apart from the rich 1 per cent that is. They are raking it in.
And Boris? Fiddling while Rome burns and getting paid big bucks for speaking engagements whilst still supposedly in office. Conspicuous by his absence as usual, but if there is a sniff of getting back in No 10, he will magically reappear.
Yes, of course it was a facetious post and he is a cnute, the other point though, is that it's all relative isn't it, he less of a cnute than Boris, and in terms of Tories, the cnuteness of them decreases as you go back in time. Apart of the unmentionable one...
Lia Nici Now saying on BBC news, My Constituents never wanted Boris to go
lying, self serving, boris noshing disgrace
The Lincoln MP is peddling the same message it seems. It's going to be him I think. If it is, I hope a few rogues start to leave the party and begin to force a GE.
Cameron wasn't less of a girl private than Johnson. He was just a very slightly different sort of girl private. More polished but still an entitled, vacuous girl private.
I think some people on here are misunderestimating how forgetful the electorate is.
I don't know how anybody can forget that it was against the law to mourn your dead, he then ignored it, the law he put into effect so that he could have a party or 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Lia Nici Now saying on BBC news, My Constituents never wanted Boris to go
lying, self serving, boris noshing disgrace
Just logged on here to say the same thing..."constituents in Grimsby overwhelmingly want Boris back " ...... fck off....this Town better wake up at the next opportunity and march her and her cronies out flat on their faces.
2023/24 DLWDDWDLLLWDLLLLWDDDWDLLWLDLLDWDDWLLDWLWLWL but not NLN 😁 2022/23LDWDWWDWLLDWWDLLLDLWLLWLWLLWDDLDWWDDDLLWDWLWLW 2021/22 WDWWWWDLWWWWLLLWLLDLWLLWWDWWWLWDLWWDWWWDLWD play offs WWW Promoted 🥳 2020/21 LLDWWLDLDWLWLLLDLWLLDLLDLLLWLLLDDDDWDDDLWLWLWL .. hello darkness my old friend 2019/20 WDLDWWLDLWWLLLDLDLDLDDWWDLLWDDWWL WLLW - ended 2018/19 LWDDLLLLLLWWDWLLLWDWLWWWWLLLLWWWWDLLLDDLLDLWLW Hello Scunny
Just logged on here to say the same thing..."constituents in Grimsby overwhelmingly want Boris back " ...... fck off....this Town better wake up at the next opportunity and march her and her cronies out flat on their faces.
She would have to actually speak to the constituents of Grimsby to form that opinion.
I think I hate her more than Thatcher and I never thought I would say that about any politician.
Cameron wasn't less of a girl private than Johnson. He was just a very slightly different sort of girl private. More polished but still an entitled, vacuous girl private.
Aye, another one of the Bullingdon Club along with Boris.
That famous photo of those two and 8 other overprivileged twonks, preening in their ridiculous coat tails just about sums up everything that is wrong in society.
Aye, another one of the Bullingdon Club along with Boris.
That famous photo of those two and 8 other overprivileged twonks, preening in their ridiculous coat tails just about sums up everything that is wrong in society.
Boils my p1ss.
Pig flipping bullingdon bully…
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
And that's exactly why I generally stay away from the political threads on here.
I would never normally stoop to personal insults, but for me Boris and his ilk are fair game.
The things he has done and the contempt he has shown women, Muslims, people of colour, the working classes etc means he deserves no respect whatsoever.
You can always have a go at defending him and your decision to vote for him if you like. All views welcome.
Out of Johnson Mordaunt and Sunak, certainly Mordaunt or Sunak will be the least worst option, certainly better than Johnson and Truss, but admittedly that is an extremely low bar.
"Firstly, I could have walked this leadership contest. I'd have flippingdrunk the next General Election as well. But to be honest I've decided I can't be arsed with it all".
It sums up Bojo that his supporters have been saying he’s changed, is contrite and has learnt his lessons; yet it appears he’s lied to them and everyone else that he had the necessary 100 nominations.
The guy just can’t tell the truth.
Sorry state of affairs that the coronation of slimeball Sunak almost feels like a release (albeit a rubbish release, like an Ed Sheeran Greatest Hits album).
Democracy, what democracy! We have a population of about 67 million people but only 100k+ were allowed to vote in the last PM election and they cocked it up with Truss. Now democracy has 357 tory MPs who will decide who will govern.
What an entire shambles. We need an election for the country to decide, not an elite few who do not represent the entire country as the 650 seats in parliament represent the entire country.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Democracy, what democracy! We have a population of about 67 million people but only 100k+ were allowed to vote in the last PM election and they cocked it up with Truss. Now democracy has 357 tory MPs who will decide who will govern.
What an entire shambles. We need an election for the country to decide, not an elite few who do not represent the entire country as the 650 seats in parliament represent the entire country.
But you don't vote for a person, you vote for a party and it's up to them who leads that party. This is one of the problems with the voting system as it becomes about the personality of the leader and not the views and policies that his/her party represent.
The mostly right-wing press love this because it's easier to destroy a person than it is a party.
The last election became about Boris v Corbyn and it was easy to tell you that Corbyn was an antisemitic, terrorist sympathiser and lefty socialist who would destroy the country and the economy, when in fact, he is a fairly boring social democrat who had a proper and fair manifesto and was backed by the party membership which had swelled to around 600,000. The other issue of course being about Brexit, which Boris jumped all over despite being quite happy to back the remain campaign had that been seen as more of a vote winner. At no point did the press tell you about Boris being a liar, cheat, racist and philanderer who would do and say anything to get elected. He also found that magic money tree that they had used to mock Labour's plans.
So, here we are, with the Tories in a shambolic state, the country in a mess and the economy tanked. Brexit didn't bring the sunlit uplands you were promised. Levelling up was a myth and we are back to austerity 2.0.
I'm actually laughing at people such as yourself who fell for all the guff and are now complaining that you want a general election. Didn't go according to plan, did it?
I want a general election myself, but it won't happen because all the Tories care about and all they have EVER cared about, is themselves and being in power. They are not going to give that up by calling a GE in which they would get annihilated.
So now we will have the oily and clean-cut Sunak, who is richer than the King, telling us how we will have to bear the brunt of their fook ups.
But you don't vote for a person, you vote for a party and it's up to them who leads that party. This is one of the problems with the voting system as it becomes about the personality of the leader and not the views and policies that his/her party represent.
The mostly right-wing press love this because it's easier to destroy a person than it is a party.
The last election became about Boris v Corbyn and it was easy to tell you that Corbyn was an antisemitic, terrorist sympathiser and lefty socialist who would destroy the country and the economy, when in fact, he is a fairly boring social democrat who had a proper and fair manifesto and was backed by the party membership which had swelled to around 600,000. The other issue of course being about Brexit, which Boris jumped all over despite being quite happy to back the remain campaign had that been seen as more of a vote winner. At no point did the press tell you about Boris being a liar, cheat, racist and philanderer who would do and say anything to get elected. He also found that magic money tree that they had used to mock Labour's plans.
So, here we are, with the Tories in a shambolic state, the country in a mess and the economy tanked. Brexit didn't bring the sunlit uplands you were promised. Levelling up was a myth and we are back to austerity 2.0.
I'm actually laughing at people such as yourself who fell for all the guff and are now complaining that you want a general election. Didn't go according to plan, did it?
I want a general election myself, but it won't happen because all the Tories care about and all they have EVER cared about, is themselves and being in power. They are not going to give that up by calling a GE in which they would get annihilated.
So now we will have the oily and clean-cut Sunak, who is richer than the King, telling us how we will have to bear the brunt of their fook ups.
It is not a matter of falling for guff but the fact that what parties put in their manifesto is not legally binding. If it were legally binding then the promises would have to be acted upon and the 'guff ' would not appear. As you know I have already said I voted for Brexit and if Corbyn had said this I would have voted for Labour.
Sadly I learnt today that we are still paying into the EU
"But in July 2022, the government's own estimate put the bill higher, at £42.5bn. It says the increase is due to the most recent valuation of the UK's obligation for EU pensions." [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/51110096 ].
Exit to me means you leave and shut the door. This did not happen. If it was stated that exit would have to have conditions attached to it then I would not have voted that way.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Have you ever decided to cancel a phone contract mid-way through because you fancied a change? If so, you'll have known in advance that you would have to pay what was due on the remainder of the contract.
It was the same with leaving the EU. We were signed up as full members which known costs factored in (and known benefits), and it was necessary to negotiate our way out of our promises. The fact that Brexiteers may have lied and blustered about we would have to pay or that we could simply refuse to pay is neither here nor there. They were, unsurprisingly, not being honest. If we'd withdrawn unilaterally and not paid our dues, it would have been the hardest possible of Brexits which would have damaged our economy even more than has been the case.
Since you mentioned Brexit, how well do you think that is going? As Mark Carney pointed out the other day, before Brexit, the UK economy was 90% the size of the German economy. Now, it is 70% of the size. That's some going in just a short amount of time.
Also, I notice that the latest is that the government is planning to pass a law to repeal and replace all legislation passed while we were members of the EU. 2,400 laws to be rewritten (or some perhaps abandoned) by the end of 2023:
It's simply not possible in the timescale or resources available. Given the libertarian bent of the Brexiteers who are currently in government, I suspect that the laws protecting workers rights and environmental protections will be weakened at the very least. Who knows what other sort of crazy crap they will come up with before the public finally get the opportunity to turf them out of office? Government ministers can quite literally just create new laws to replace the old ones and put whatever they like in them, given the powers they have allocated themselves to deal with the Brexit process. Look at this government. Do you really trust them to do anything right at the moment?
As for the new PM, it's looking like a stitch up to ensure that Sunak gets in unopposed. They obviously don't want to give the Tory members the chance to pick someone a bit paler once again. It is even less democratic than the process which gave the job to Truss! They've completely changed the rules of their contest to fix it. Crazy stuff.
Brexit itself was a stitch up, I know that 52% is a majority but we aren't talking shares in GTFC here we're talking a union of nations that's in the G7. I was frankly amazed at the time (and still am) that a threshold of say, 65-70% wasn't required to actually trigger anything. As always, a small cabal of the elite made huge profits off the results of the vote I'm guessing.
It is not a matter of falling for guff but the fact that what parties put in their manifesto is not legally binding. If it were legally binding then the promises would have to be acted upon and the 'guff ' would not appear. As you know I have already said I voted for Brexit and if Corbyn had said this I would have voted for Labour.
Sadly I learnt today that we are still paying into the EU
"But in July 2022, the government's own estimate put the bill higher, at £42.5bn. It says the increase is due to the most recent valuation of the UK's obligation for EU pensions." [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/51110096 ].
Exit to me means you leave and shut the door. This did not happen. If it was stated that exit would have to have conditions attached to it then I would not have voted that way.
How could you possibly have thought there wouldn't have been consequences to leaving the EU? Even just financial ones. The UK was legally in agreement to fund lots of projects over the coming years and you can't just welch on these deals without breaking international law. You can't exit anything, even at a personal level, without there being conditions attached so why on earth did you believe there would be an instant clean break from a political, economical and supply chain union that had been built up over the last 40 years?!
This just goes to show why the vote was so stupid in the first place. Giving an arbitrary choice of yes or no to being in the EU without any studies or options for what leaving would look like was idiotic in the extreme. This gave Vote Leave the opportunity to lie and play on people's prejudices and ignorance. They gleefully did this getting some to believe in the baloney about £350 million a week for the NHS and all the rest of it whilst knowing that others would let their inherent nationalistic instincts sway their vote. Frankly if you believed people like Jacob Rees-Mogg, Nigel Farage and Boris Effing Johnson then you're naive at best.
The EU is far from perfect and there is/was a genuine question to be asked about what it was turning in to with too much German and French influence. The issues with immigration were down to successive governments not investing in the necessary infrastructure to cater for a large influx of foreign nationals to certain areas like Boston which meant local services started to suffer. I can totally understand why people didn't like this but the media did a fantastic job of blaming this on the EU itself when it was something that our own governments should have sorted. However, without a proper plan in place and some actual experts looking at the best way to implement leaving should it be voted for then for the time being at least we would have been far better served being in the club and trying to change it from within rather than leaving in a huff and hurting ourselves far more than them in the process. Brexit will go down as the biggest act of self-harm a nation has ever done to itself.
It is not a matter of falling for guff but the fact that what parties put in their manifesto is not legally binding. If it were legally binding then the promises would have to be acted upon and the 'guff ' would not appear. As you know I have already said I voted for Brexit and if Corbyn had said this I would have voted for Labour.
Sadly I learnt today that we are still paying into the EU
"But in July 2022, the government's own estimate put the bill higher, at £42.5bn. It says the increase is due to the most recent valuation of the UK's obligation for EU pensions." [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/51110096 ].
Exit to me means you leave and shut the door. This did not happen. If it was stated that exit would have to have conditions attached to it then I would not have voted that way.
The financial settlement, or “divorce bill” was one of the main talking points around Brexit for about 5 years. Were you on another planet at the time?
It was always going to be Sunak. The Tories are making sure it's him because they can't afford any more fook ups. I suspect any opposition to him was gently leaned on by the grandees "for the good of the party".
When covid was around and Sunak was to the fore, I remember saying that he would be PM one day. He has that certain appeal the voters like, and it doesn't matter if he divides the party and the members, because they are now desperately in damage limitation mode. I expect their ratings will steadily climb over the coming weeks and months, and even if they lose the next election, it won't be the annihilation that it would be if they were to go to the country now.
The Tories are ruthless and successful for a reason.
So we have a new PM who has lost a two horse race with the idiotic Liz Truss because the Tories couldn’t find anyone else worthy enough to challenge him?
It's a good job we've got somebody entirely new in to clean up the mess made by the last government, eh? And the one before that. And the one before that. And the one before that.
I suppose he's at least not likely to be getting backhanders or being 'gifted' holidays in the way that Johnson was. He's got plenty of homes to go on holiday to, so can visit one of those instead.
So we have a new PM who has lost a two horse race with the idiotic Liz Truss because the Tories couldn’t find anyone else worthy enough to challenge him?
He actually did better than Truss with the MP's, but the crazy members went for Truss as she promised big tax cuts and clamping down on the unions, which appealed to the selfish fookers.
How could you possibly have thought there wouldn't have been consequences to leaving the EU? Even just financial ones. The UK was legally in agreement to fund lots of projects over the coming years and you can't just welch on these deals without breaking international law. You can't exit anything, even at a personal level, without there being conditions attached so why on earth did you believe there would be an instant clean break from a political, economical and supply chain union that had been built up over the last 40 years?!
This just goes to show why the vote was so stupid in the first place. Giving an arbitrary choice of yes or no to being in the EU without any studies or options for what leaving would look like was idiotic in the extreme. This gave Vote Leave the opportunity to lie and play on people's prejudices and ignorance. They gleefully did this getting some to believe in the baloney about £350 million a week for the NHS and all the rest of it whilst knowing that others would let their inherent nationalistic instincts sway their vote. Frankly if you believed people like Jacob Rees-Mogg, Nigel Farage and Boris Effing Johnson then you're naive at best.
The EU is far from perfect and there is/was a genuine question to be asked about what it was turning in to with too much German and French influence. The issues with immigration were down to successive governments not investing in the necessary infrastructure to cater for a large influx of foreign nationals to certain areas like Boston which meant local services started to suffer. I can totally understand why people didn't like this but the media did a fantastic job of blaming this on the EU itself when it was something that our own governments should have sorted. However, without a proper plan in place and some actual experts looking at the best way to implement leaving should it be voted for then for the time being at least we would have been far better served being in the club and trying to change it from within rather than leaving in a huff and hurting ourselves far more than them in the process. Brexit will go down as the biggest act of self-harm a nation has ever done to itself.
One of the main points of the EU was freedom of movement. The French blockaded Calais many times and still do. I seem to remember wine lakes British Lamb lorries being ransacked and roads blockaded by French farmers.
Then there was the small matter of the EU accounts not being signed of !
Any of these is a breach of contract and we would not have welched on any deals.
What we need is for politicians to stand up for Britain and not succumb to the EU. These last few weeks have shown the level our politicians have dropped to. 3 PMs, 4 Chancellors, is it 4 or 5 Home Secs etc. Looking back 12 years of tory rule, 13 years labour, 18 years tory and where are we? Up to our necks in debt, NHS dysfunctional, Police are not fit for purpose, no decent transport infrastructure, social care on life support, I could go on.
Both red and blue have had the opportunity to do something positive and failed and you worry about commitment to the EU. It is a commitment to this nation you should want. A better place for the young, old and disabled to live in with full employment. Surely this better than paying a bureaucrats pension in Brussels.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Always someone else’s fault isn’t it? When you had the opportunity in 2019 to vote for policies which could have addressed all of those things you’ve mentioned, what did you do?
Always someone else’s fault isn’t it? When you had the opportunity in 2019 to vote for policies which could have addressed all of those things you’ve mentioned, what did you do?
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Unfortunately, when I voted for both Blair and Brown they both failed, miserably.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Given that Brown lost the only election he stood in as PM, not sure what you’re on about. Even then, if you can’t see the difference between Blair and Corbyn, I think you’re WELL beyond help.
Bear in mind that the size of the EU bureaucracy is absolutely tiny in the grand scheme of things. About 60,000 employees to operate the whole organisation. In comparison, the civil service in the UK alone has over half a million employees!
The Brexiteers railing against expense of EU bureaucracy were talking shite and most of them, you would assume, knew this was the case.
I just don’t think there are any politicians about who can do off the cuff comments AND scripted media briefing. You’d hope the PMs might be slightly better at the off the cuff stuff though I think - they’re the face of the country, parliament and party here and around the world. Johnson was actually quite good at at least looking fairly confident at blagging it.
Given that Brown lost the only election he stood in as PM, not sure what you’re on about. Even then, if you can’t see the difference between Blair and Corbyn, I think you’re WELL beyond help.
So what help can you offer?
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
He actually did better than Truss with the MP's, but the crazy members went for Truss as she promised big tax cuts and clamping down on the unions, which appealed to the selfish fookers.
Taking aside the politics and their ideological beliefs, Sunak somehow managed to campaign by far the worst. He came across absolutely appallingly in that mini-campaign when it really mattered. He failed to relate to the quite defined membership, somehow even less so than than the crazy mad-eyed approach of Truss.
He's in by a technical default following a default really. There's literally no-one else left and he's far from the chosen one. He's going to make choices that will be universally disliked, by all but the right-wing press/boot lickers. The approach and lack of warmth he displayed in the summer will make it even more difficult for the wider electorate to stomach.
If we get to a GE, which I'm still holding out for (probably with less hope each day!), I can't see him having any appeal to the vast majority. It flipping baffles me as to how, but Johnson somehow managed to appeal to some people. I can't say the same of Sunak. His predictions regards Truss' economic policy will buy him some time with the public, but I get the feeling he and his advisors seem to think they can get away without engagement. I know he's not officially PM yet but this morning they wheeled Victoria Atkins out on the Today programme and she seemed genuinely surprised when pressed on a question of what he was going to do.
Sunak has already ruled out a GE, so that's not going to happen.
I get the impression that he has become the new Theresa May. They are in total disarray and have dropped a steaming pile of crap into his lap, knowing he's on a hiding to nothing and they are probably going to lose the next election anyway, whatever happens.
I think the others who harbour ambitions to be PM will keep their powder dry until the political landscape is not as fraught for them as it is now.
Jacob Rees Moggo saying that he no longer believes Rishi Sunak is a socialist in a desperate attempt to stay in the cabinet. All these tory whoppers have absolute bonkers, paranoid ideas of what qualifies as socialism verging on Donald Trump saying that Sleepy Joe is a leftist commie member of ANTIFA.
"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
With an horrendous winter ahead of us, I wouldn't rule out Tory MP's scrambling about to appease their electorate - knowing full well that even with two years of sitting pretty to go, they could well be sitting ducks ahead of 2025.
There's so much for him, or whoever came in, to fall over on. As above, he'll get a little bit of time and room but not a lot. His initial speech was poor, harping on about previous 'success' rather than focusing on what he's going to do. Paying tribute to both Truss and Johnson will grate on people. He asked to be judged on actions rather than words, yet offered nothing as to what he's going to do. Instead it's easier to say we're still struggling from Covid, Putin's war etc. etc.
He's got to get the economy back on something that resembles a steady ground again. Most likely he'll introduce tax cuts, further ones. That'll go down like a lead balloon, more so when he introduces tax cuts for his mates in the city.
He'll have to cut public spending, at a time when public services need more investment and support than ever. He's facing a revolting NHS at a time when he'll have to cut their funding to meet his economic goals. That's not going to work favourably for him.
Prices are going up and up across the board, with no indication of slowing down. It's still mild weather wise and most people haven't quite felt the impact of energy price increases. Within a month the mercury drops and people put the heating on, soon switching it off when they realise how much extra it costs. There will be a kick in point and a realisation for a lot of people of how horrible it's going to get, at the minute the vast majority of people aren't experiencing it - we're almost sleepwalking into it. The moment that happens, the backlash happens.
If nothing else, the last few months have highlighted just how fickle these Tory MP's are in who they back, don't support or just stab in the back. They'll happily throw anyone under the bus to suit their own needs.
Completely agree on the timing. He's absolutely 2022's version of May. But who's the Boris Johnson waiting in the wings to save the day having stirred the pot? Shapps? Hunt? Johnson, again?
In the words of Rocky Balboa - 'it ain't over till it's over'..... we still have the whole saga of how much tax Sunak and his missus may or may not have allegedly avoided/evaded over the years and the truth of their offshore wealth, and what fingers they have in which pies via that wealth. if you've got his kind of personal fortune why would you want to be PM of the current excrement show? genuine care for the UK? Ego? Vanity? or so you can turn several hundred million into several billion by enforcing policies that facilitate that? I couldn't possibly comment personally.
I've been expecting an expose/leak on Sunak to appear for ages, I thought it would come in the first tory leadership race but evidently not. I'm guessing we'll have a few weeks of stability and then it'll come out before christmas, I mean which paper won't want to run the title 'new year, new pm?' or it's being kept dry for just before the next general election maybe.
Jacob Rees Moggo saying that he no longer believes Rishi Sunak is a socialist in a desperate attempt to stay in the cabinet. All these tory whoppers have absolute bonkers, paranoid ideas of what qualifies as socialism verging on Donald Trump saying that Sleepy Joe is a leftist commie member of ANTIFA.
He's on record saying he wouldn't serve in a Sunak cabinet, and that it's unlikely Sunak would ask him anyway.
Bet he changes his mind if asked, the odious fooker.
It’s good that he’s contacted the devolved leaders on his first day. Truss didn’t bother at all. The cynic I am would suggest it’s lipservice but I hope he’s genuinely wanting to rebuild the partnerships. He probably wants to get on the phone to NI tomorrow morning! It goes without saying he’d contact Biden (or maybe he called him Jim Bedin on the phone) and now Zelenskyy.
The Parliamentary Conservative party is obviously low on quality currently so we can’t expect miracles in a reshuffle but flipping hell.
Same excrement, incompetent failures getting the jobs they’ve already had and copulated up…Sunak might be a little more together than Truss, Christ, even a hamster had more about them than Truss but anyone fooled by these idiots still most certainly needs to give their head a wobble…
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
I was pleased to hear Sunak promising a return of integrity to government. It lasted a couple of hours until he reappointed a Home Secretary who resigned in disgrace 6 days before.
I initially thought a Sunak led Tory government would probably manage to limp on for 2 years before a crushing defeat at a late 2024 election. But nothing has changed. This government will collapse. It’s just a matter of when and how much damage is done to our country and our reputation in the mean time.
Watching the BBC news this morning and there are people saying he's a decent chap, intelligent chap and seeming generally positive about Sunak.
Do these people never learn? They shouldn't be allowed a vote, the fuckwits.
You know how the BBC is forced to work now. They go out and ask 20 people what they think about Sunak. 18 are negative about him and 2 positive and the BBC show 2 of each for fear of being called impartial.
People shouldn’t blame the BBC. They should blame the people who have engineered the environment that causes the BBC to have to operate in that way.
Williamson back in the cabinet? Sunak is really flipping well trolling the universe with that move.
Same excrement, different day.
And that's the thing that arguably annoys me the most, the sheer arrogance of it all. To think that they can just get away with bringing back people like Braverman when she left in disgrace.
This whole shitshow should be held in contempt and hung out to dry, yet instead we have idiots saying he seems a decent bloke - the same people who insisted that Boris was 'doing his best'.
If anyone honestly thinks Sunak or any of his cronies has their best interests and the best interests of this country at heart, they need their head testing.
The Suella Braverman appointment is an absolute scandal. Sunak will be forced to sack her. And when he does his own reputation will be in absolute tatters and any authority and mandate he has as Prime Minister will be gone.
The Suella Braverman appointment is an absolute scandal. Sunak will be forced to sack her. And when he does his own reputation will be in absolute tatters and any authority and mandate he has as Prime Minister will be gone.
Will he fúck. By who?!
The Tory party are clinging on for dear life so nobody’s interested in rocking that particular boat, and the mainstream press have spent the last 2 days manufacturing the idea that Sunak represents something in the way of stability and “grown up politics”.
The Tory party are clinging on for dear life so nobody’s interested in rocking that particular boat, and the mainstream press have spent the last 2 days manufacturing the idea that Sunak represents something in the way of stability and “grown up politics”.
Trust me. I was the only one on here that said straight away that the Chris Pincher scandal would finish Johnson.
There will be massive scrutiny in the re-appointment of Braverman. It will have to go to the cabinet office and the evidence against Braverman is damning and her version of events at the time were clearly dishonest. She’s an absolute disgrace.
The “more moderate” types of the Tory MPs who like to call themselves “one nation conservatives” will put him under massive pressure and Sunak will have to sack her.
It appears he has been forced into this by Braverman threatening to back Johnson if Sunak didn’t promise her the Home Office. It makes him look extremely weak before he’s even started the job.
The Government are delaying the 31 Oct fiscal statement announcement by two weeks so Sunak can get ‘under the bonnet’ of the nations finances.
The only time that guy has ever looked under a bonnet is when he opened up the back of his mate’s Porsche 911 thinking that’s where the boot was.
It’s just more nonsense spouted by over paid folk in jobs they’re incapable of doing…he’s been the flipping chancellor…if he needs to get under the bonnet to figure stuff out he’s just admitting that he’s useless.
The fact he reappointed Braverman means he’s copulated…
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
It’s just more nonsense spouted by over paid folk in jobs they’re incapable of doing…he’s been the flipping chancellor…if he needs to get under the bonnet to figure stuff out he’s just admitting that he’s useless.
The fact he reappointed Braverman means he’s copulated…
Yeah, totally agree. Sunak is finished before he’s even started.
The true facts around what Suella Braverman did are in the public domain thanks to the Times.
Sunak has gambled that he couldn’t be PM without Braverman’s backing. But by doing so his own reputation is in tatters and this will ultimately finish him off and lead to the collapse of the Tory adminstration.
And don’t get me started on him trotting out Boris Johnson’s deranged greatest hits at PMQs.
Braverman will be gone by PMQs next week. They’ll obviously try and dress it up as a resignation because she has become a distraction. But we all know the truth.
The Pincher scandal was one of many, many things that contributed towards the downfall of Johnson. Considering the Tory party failed consistently to uphold ethics and standards, I'm not sure there's much weight in their sudden u-turn on morals when it became convenient.
The tide was turning against Johnson, by-election defeats meant the writing was on the wall and as thick as they are the MP's could see where it was heading. They used it as a means to get rid of Johnson in order to try and save their own skins.
The decision to re-appoint Braverman is absolutely disgraceful. But if it proves to be on that will bite Sunak depends on how the public react to it, or more importantly how the MP's feel it will impact on their ability to stay in power. At the minute he's getting a free ride, largely because he's 'new' and just how terrible Truss was on everything.
I don't believe, but I would like to be wrong, that Braverman's return to Government will be the start of the end for him. I think that happens when the public masses get a stark reality check how hard this winter is going to be.
Yvette Cooper comes across so well in that clip. She is lucid, intelligent and forthright, unlike anyone we have seen from the Tories lately.
The stick insect Braverman is a disgusting human being who is there to keep up a culture war and distract from the coming austerity. She will do and say things that get reported in the press and give the cretins something to gnash their teeth about. Immigration will be back to the fore.
I don't believe, but I would like to be wrong, that Braverman's return to Government will be the start of the end for him. I think that happens when the public masses get a stark reality check how hard this winter is going to be.
I reckon this delayed budget has the potential to really engulf the government and restart the infighting, especially if the pension triple lock is cut. That'll absolutely enrage the tory core support base.
"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
More like they need an extra 2 weeks to shift personal money into the companies that are going to go up in value when the budget comes out, and remove money from the ones that will lose out. Allegedly.
More like they need an extra 2 weeks to shift personal money into the companies that are going to go up in value when the budget comes out, and remove money from the ones that will lose out. Allegedly.
You mean like Bravermans mate working as an unofficial advisor at the Home Office? Ya know, profiteering from the insider knowledge he’s been getting access to but shouldn’t have…
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
You mean like Bravermans mate working as an unofficial advisor at the Home Office? Ya know, profiteering from the insider knowledge he’s been getting access to but shouldn’t have…
I reckon this delayed budget has the potential to really engulf the government and restart the infighting, especially if the pension triple lock is cut. That'll absolutely enrage the tory core support base.
Good point. I suspect there's enough arrogance in Sunak's mob that they think they can get away with it too.
If they do away with the triple lock it would be like pulling the cork out of a boat riddle with woodworm. The boat would sink and take the tories with it.
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Yvette Cooper comes across so well in that clip. She is lucid, intelligent and forthright, unlike anyone we have seen from the Tories lately.
The stick insect Braverman is a disgusting human being who is there to keep up a culture war and distract from the coming austerity. She will do and say things that get reported in the press and give the cretins something to gnash their teeth about. Immigration will be back to the fore.
Braverman is one of the scariest politicians I've known I've ever known to get one of the big cabinet posts. Closest we have ever had to a nazi in power.
Today the UN has said we are staring at failure to limit warming to 1.5 degrees whilst Shell declares £8 billion profits for the quarter, and the Lancet publishes a paper showing that the health impact of climate change is already hitting. As well as a foreigner and gay hater we have climate change flat earther at Home Sec.
Didn't they already abandon the triple lock last year?
Yes. I told Vickers who replied. His answer was that It wouldn't be fair to the rest of the population to have such an increase for pensioners. Sunak then raised the minimum wage by a higher % than the pensioners got, which to them was fair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
Braverman is one of the scariest politicians I've known I've ever known to get one of the big cabinet posts. Closest we have ever had to a nazi in power.
Today the UN has said we are staring at failure to limit warming to 1.5 degrees whilst Shell declares £8 billion profits for the quarter, and the Lancet publishes a paper showing that the health impact of climate change is already hitting. As well as a foreigner and gay hater we have climate change flat earther at Home Sec.
Who apparently now needs ‘training’ from MI5 on e-mail security and what is appropriate to share in terms of information security. FFS, the Home Secretary?!?! Any civil servant or admin worker in a local council knows what’s right and wrong on this. You f*ck up? You are out! The highest post in the land in terms of national security and she apparently doesn’t know what she’s doing, or rather, like the rest of these Tory cnuts, she just doesn’t bother to follow the rules. It’s utterly appalling that this babbling racist and security liability has a cabinet post, and was restored to her position after a grave breach of the ministerial code and a compromise of the safety and integrity of the nation. I do despise Braverman. I think she’s an arrogant, bigoted, hateful person. Sunak talked about wanting integrity, professionalism and accountability, and trashed his own principles just to get her and the far right on side within 1 hour!! As everyday passes, the Conservatives deliver blow after blow after blow to our stability, security, economy, international status, and, what’s worse, they go on with this daily/weekly psychodrama whilst hard working, honest British people suffer unspeakable pressure and anxiety. There’s no governing. There’s no plan. Just a pathetic limping from crisis to crisis, and the saving of individual skin and reaction to the latest appalling transgression. The worst collection of people we’ve had representing and governing this nation by a trillion miles.
The Braverman worries me and to be honest, I’m aware I sound like a stuck record but the the moment Sunak reappointed her ensured he lost whatever the small amount of credibility he had left…
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
The Braverman worries me and to be honest, I’m aware I sound like a stuck record but the the moment Sunak reappointed her ensured he lost whatever the small amount of credibility he had left…
Perhaps in 44 days of chaos the only thing Truss got right was sacking the dangerously inept Braverman. It’s a little ironic that Sunak’s “new” cabinet of integrity has this odious woman back as Home Secretary despite worries from MI5. She is currently in hiding, hoping to shamelessly ride it out while other ministers are sent out to destroy what is left of their own reputations in trying to defend her.
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