PM

Quoted from Humbercod

You are twisting your argument now to save face it’s just laughable… you said North Korea is not a socialist country!!!
No mention of parallel with the western system until you were helped out😂
Do you know the definition of a Socialist Country?
Let me help you -
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/socialist-countries

Socialist countries are states that have aligned themselves with socialism. There is no criteria or official process for being named a socialist state. All that is required is that a country identifies itself as socialist. This includes nations that claim to be socialists or have constitutions that state that they are based on socialism, even if they do not rigidly follow the economic or political systems associated with socialism, because socialism is still the foundation of their political and economic policy.

At least have the decency to admit you are wrong, and then maybe apologise for being insulting.

North Korea can call themselves whatever they like but they're not socialist. They also call themselves a democratic republic but they blatantly aren't. They've literally got a ruling elite who hoover up virtually all the country's wealth, this is the opposite of socialism. Just like the Nazis claimed to be "National socialists", they weren't remotely socialist. It's just a ploy by dictators to try and get the public on side early doors. Still, you're the genius that tried to claim Hitler was left wing so I think we can treat your opinions with the disdain they deserve.

im convinced your a wind up

no one can be as thick in the head as you

Quoted from mariner91

North Korea can call themselves whatever they like but they're not socialist. They also call themselves a democratic republic but they blatantly aren't. They've literally got a ruling elite who hoover up virtually all the country's wealth, this is the opposite of socialism. Just like the Nazis claimed to be "National socialists", they weren't remotely socialist. It's just a ploy by dictators to try and get the public on side early doors. Still, you're the genius that tried to claim Hitler was left wing so I think we can treat your opinions with the disdain they deserve.

Just for arguments sake then, just so I understand your logic regarding this evil ideology let’s take away the ones whose foundations arose from Marxism, before evolving into other warped interpretations ok so far.
How many of these true socialists country’s the ones that you seem quite defensive about, you know the ones that you want to distance from North Korea can you say are the Country’s we should be aspiring to?

Quoted from Hagrid

im convinced your a wind up

no one can be as thick in the head as you

Back in your box you sexist 🐷

Quoted from Humbercod

Just for arguments sake then, just so I understand your logic regarding this evil ideology let’s take away the ones whose foundations arose from Marxism, before evolving into other warped interpretations ok so far.
How many of these true socialists country’s the ones that you seem quite defensive about, you know the ones that you want to distance from North Korea can you say are the Country’s we should be aspiring to?

The problem we have Humbo is that you can't seem to grasp that Marxism is one extreme end of a spectrum of socialism. You are not intelligent enough to understand the differences between different ideologies and only see an "us" and "them" scenario. With anything on the left being different to your way of thinking and therefore must be evil. I'm not a Marxist, I'm sure many on here wouldn't identify as a Marxist either. Hell, despite what the right wing media have convinced you even Jeremy Corbyn wasn't a Marxist. You trying to lump all forms of socialism together as one "evil" is no different to someone claiming that anything on the right is evil because the Nazis were awful. Is Thatcherism evil because it's the same side of the political spectrum as Nazism?

As for states that we should aspire to then the Nordic Model, particularly that of Norway, would be something that I would be over the moon with. I don't mind having a mixed market economy. But I don't agree with natural monopolies like water companies being run for private gain. They should be run by the state with any profit made put back into investing in infrastructure for the people of the country and not in to dividends for the rich. I don't think the energy market should be private in the UK, particularly when companies like EDF are owned by foreign governments. As a rabid Brexiteer, the thought that your energy bills are paying for French pensions would likely make your head explode. I also don't think that oil and gas for example, which were formed naturally under the country that we all occupy, should be used to make billions of pounds for a small part of society. The money made from exporting and producing them should be used to benefit all of us. Essentially, the state should have a large ownership of key sectors, particularly ones like those mentioned above.

I'm quite happy for high taxation if it means we have good infrastructure, good schooling and a health service that works. You've fallen in to the trap from the right wing media of being convinced that foreigners/socialists/benefit claimants/the EU/transexuals/delete as appropriate are the cause of your misery. But ask yourself why has the economy grown since 2008 yet in real terms the majority of us are far worse off? The rich have become obscenely rich and it's to the detriment of the rest of us. As a socialist, I would like this to be addressed. I have no issue with people working hard and being successful and I invite them to enjoy their wealth. But something is incredibly wrong if we're the seventh biggest economy in the world but have people in full time work relying on food banks to feed themselves. So all I ask is that we rebalance the wealth within the country a bit more, stop the rich evading tax and make sure people are properly remunerated for their labour. Without the working and middle class, everything stops running so why are we only offered crumbs from those that sit at the top table?

Quoted from mariner91

The problem we have Humbo is that you can't seem to grasp that Marxism is one extreme end of a spectrum of socialism. You are not intelligent enough to understand the differences between different ideologies and only see an "us" and "them" scenario. With anything on the left being different to your way of thinking and therefore must be evil. I'm not a Marxist, I'm sure many on here wouldn't identify as a Marxist either. Hell, despite what the right wing media have convinced you even Jeremy Corbyn wasn't a Marxist. You trying to lump all forms of socialism together as one "evil" is no different to someone claiming that anything on the right is evil because the Nazis were awful. Is Thatcherism evil because it's the same side of the political spectrum as Nazism?

As for states that we should aspire to then the Nordic Model, particularly that of Norway, would be something that I would be over the moon with. I don't mind having a mixed market economy. But I don't agree with natural monopolies like water companies being run for private gain. They should be run by the state with any profit made put back into investing in infrastructure for the people of the country and not in to dividends for the rich. I don't think the energy market should be private in the UK, particularly when companies like EDF are owned by foreign governments. As a rabid Brexiteer, the thought that your energy bills are paying for French pensions would likely make your head explode. I also don't think that oil and gas for example, which were formed naturally under the country that we all occupy, should be used to make billions of pounds for a small part of society. The money made from exporting and producing them should be used to benefit all of us. Essentially, the state should have a large ownership of key sectors, particularly ones like those mentioned above.

I'm quite happy for high taxation if it means we have good infrastructure, good schooling and a health service that works. You've fallen in to the trap from the right wing media of being convinced that foreigners/socialists/benefit claimants/the EU/transexuals/delete as appropriate are the cause of your misery. But ask yourself why has the economy grown since 2008 yet in real terms the majority of us are far worse off? The rich have become obscenely rich and it's to the detriment of the rest of us. As a socialist, I would like this to be addressed. I have no issue with people working hard and being successful and I invite them to enjoy their wealth. But something is incredibly wrong if we're the seventh biggest economy in the world but have people in full time work relying on food banks to feed themselves. So all I ask is that we rebalance the wealth within the country a bit more, stop the rich evading tax and make sure people are properly remunerated for their labour. Without the working and middle class, everything stops running so why are we only offered crumbs from those that sit at the top table?

Utter madness you commie.

I much prefer Jacob Rees Mogg telling me to doff my cap and be thankful for my lot.

Quoted from mariner91

The problem we have Humbo is that you can't seem to grasp that Marxism is one extreme end of a spectrum of socialism. You are not intelligent enough to understand the differences between different ideologies and only see an "us" and "them" scenario. With anything on the left being different to your way of thinking and therefore must be evil. I'm not a Marxist, I'm sure many on here wouldn't identify as a Marxist either. Hell, despite what the right wing media have convinced you even Jeremy Corbyn wasn't a Marxist. You trying to lump all forms of socialism together as one "evil" is no different to someone claiming that anything on the right is evil because the Nazis were awful. Is Thatcherism evil because it's the same side of the political spectrum as Nazism?

As for states that we should aspire to then the Nordic Model, particularly that of Norway, would be something that I would be over the moon with. I don't mind having a mixed market economy. But I don't agree with natural monopolies like water companies being run for private gain. They should be run by the state with any profit made put back into investing in infrastructure for the people of the country and not in to dividends for the rich. I don't think the energy market should be private in the UK, particularly when companies like EDF are owned by foreign governments. As a rabid Brexiteer, the thought that your energy bills are paying for French pensions would likely make your head explode. I also don't think that oil and gas for example, which were formed naturally under the country that we all occupy, should be used to make billions of pounds for a small part of society. The money made from exporting and producing them should be used to benefit all of us. Essentially, the state should have a large ownership of key sectors, particularly ones like those mentioned above.

I'm quite happy for high taxation if it means we have good infrastructure, good schooling and a health service that works. You've fallen in to the trap from the right wing media of being convinced that foreigners/socialists/benefit claimants/the EU/transexuals/delete as appropriate are the cause of your misery. But ask yourself why has the economy grown since 2008 yet in real terms the majority of us are far worse off? The rich have become obscenely rich and it's to the detriment of the rest of us. As a socialist, I would like this to be addressed. I have no issue with people working hard and being successful and I invite them to enjoy their wealth. But something is incredibly wrong if we're the seventh biggest economy in the world but have people in full time work relying on food banks to feed themselves. So all I ask is that we rebalance the wealth within the country a bit more, stop the rich evading tax and make sure people are properly remunerated for their labour. Without the working and middle class, everything stops running so why are we only offered crumbs from those that sit at the top table?

First of all insults aside that’s fair response you have made some good points, but I still feel all you have done is strip done a fact to suite your argument. Just to recap you told Rick and Myself that we don’t have a clue what socialism is… correct?

I’m sure anybody with a passing interest in politics would have a basic understanding of the fundamentals of socialism, a quick Google check would certainly clarify the basics. Rick commented on a hypothetical socialist government not being the answer to the Country’s woes, now judging previous socialist governments this was a more than fair comment to be honest but you let your arrogance get the better.

I had the audacity to call North Korea a socialist Country but it doesn’t matter if their history stems from socialism, they identify as socialists or they characterise as socialists because You say not!  But this is where your arrogance falls flat as socialism especially modern socialism your talking about has so many different meanings and interpretations, which is why I asked you to tell me the socialist countries we should be striving to be, but obviously you couldn’t answer this as by your own logic there are no Socialist country’s anymore in the true sense anyway.

Which leads me on to the Nordic Country’s where your post started to make much more sense, now i’d looked into these models years ago and wasn’t in favour of mixing capitalism with socialism back then I would need to go over it all again to form a solid opinion but I liked a lot of what you said apart from the state having large ownership, you’ve got to admit anything the state owns and runs usually ends up a disaster throw in the unions holding them to ransom every few years and it’s a case of rinse and repeat. I think part ownership is the only way forward.

For the record I don’t live in misery you can speak for yourself and I certainly don’t blame those you’ve mentioned this is just stereotyping straight from the Guardian except maybe the EU (joke) if you are. I don’t think it will come as a surprise when I say that I certainly don’t want to pay high taxes, I want to live in a low tax economy with a great health care and schools, have money to enjoy life and give all the children in the country a decent life that’s what I want and  we can afford to do this but socialism is not the answer and yes we will never agree, but Its my belief that we need a real conservative government with real conservative policys not these Tory idiots. Yes the wealth gap needs to close on a massive scale I agree its totally obscene, just hearing British Gas latest profits today made me feel sick, on the day we get told more increases in our fuel bills as well.

Quoted from Humbercod

First of all insults aside that’s fair response you have made some good points, but I still feel all you have done is strip done a fact to suite your argument. Just to recap you told Rick and Myself that we don’t have a clue what socialism is… correct?

I’m sure anybody with a passing interest in politics would have a basic understanding of the fundamentals of socialism, a quick Google check would certainly clarify the basics. Rick commented on a hypothetical socialist government not being the answer to the Country’s woes, now judging previous socialist governments this was a more than fair comment to be honest but you let your arrogance get the better.

I had the audacity to call North Korea a socialist Country but it doesn’t matter if their history stems from socialism, they identify as socialists or they characterise as socialists because You say not!  But this is where your arrogance falls flat as socialism especially modern socialism your talking about has so many different meanings and interpretations, which is why I asked you to tell me the socialist countries we should be striving to be, but obviously you couldn’t answer this as by your own logic there are no Socialist country’s anymore in the true sense anyway.

Which leads me on to the Nordic Country’s where your post started to make much more sense, now i’d looked into these models years ago and wasn’t in favour of mixing capitalism with socialism back then I would need to go over it all again to form a solid opinion but I liked a lot of what you said apart from the state having large ownership, you’ve got to admit anything the state owns and runs usually ends up a disaster throw in the unions holding them to ransom every few years and it’s a case of rinse and repeat. I think part ownership is the only way forward.

For the record I don’t live in misery you can speak for yourself and I certainly don’t blame those you’ve mentioned this is just stereotyping straight from the Guardian except maybe the EU (joke) if you are. I don’t think it will come as a surprise when I say that I certainly don’t want to pay high taxes, I want to live in a low tax economy with a great health care and schools, have money to enjoy life and give all the children in the country a decent life that’s what I want and  we can afford to do this but socialism is not the answer and yes we will never agree, but Its my belief that we need a real conservative government with real conservative policys not these Tory idiots. Yes the wealth gap needs to close on a massive scale I agree its totally obscene, just hearing British Gas latest profits today made me feel sick, on the day we get told more increases in our fuel bills as well.

I still don't believe you actually understand what socialism is. You have had your opinions shaped and warped so much by the right wing press who try to bastardise the word socialism in the public's mind to suit their own agenda. Having a welfare state is socialism. Having a free at the point of use health service not paid for by insurance is socialism. I would be astonished if anyone on here would argue that these things should be scrapped completely so in essence, everyone agrees to a greater or lesser extent with some aspects of socialism. You even agreed that the wealth gap needs closing but how do you expect to do that without protecting the rights of workers and without implementing policies to stop big corporations, like Centrica, from profiteering? The conservative policies of the 80s helped some of the general public by (wrongly IMO) selling off council housing for cheap etc but there's nothing left to sell. Everything is already in the hands of massive companies or the richest in society and they're not in the business of sharing or limiting their own profits. Unfortunately the current economic system means money makes more money so when capitalism is left completely unchecked  the end game is that ultimately the wealth is pooled in a small amount of peoples' pockets.

I gave you examples of democratic socialist states that are more prosperous and far better functioning that the UK but you chose to not count that because it doesn't suit your agenda. Chrisblor explained, far more eloquently than I could, why you really can't classify North Korea as a socialist state but you chose to just insult him most probably because you don't understand it enough to discuss it in any other way. I couldn't care less how they define themselves as they also call themselves a democratic republic despite having one of the most autocratic regimes on planet Earth. I could go in to how Juche is supposedly based on Marxist-Leninism (it's not in practice but it claims to be) which is a more extreme version of Marxism to the point that it's essentially what most people would recognise as communism but there's no point as you don't do nuance. Equally, the former soviet Bloc was mainly composed of authoritarian socialist states which unless I'm mistaken is not something that any "leftie" on here or in British politics has called for at any point. Once again, it is your twisted and extreme personal view of what socialism is that clouds your opinion. A view of socialism that has been deliberately distorted by the predominantly right wing British press because god forbid a more left leaning government may get in to power and the owners of such publications could be forced to pay the tax they've been dodging for the last 20 years or more.

It won't surprise you to learn that I disagree that previous socialist governments haven't helped the country. There was less poverty, shorter waiting times and far less crime in 2008 than there was now. That isn't to say that the Labour government didn't make mistakes because they did. Furthermore, the Iraq war was completely deplorable and I hope one day the architects of it are held to account for the damage it caused. But by virtually any metric the country was in a better place then than it is now. And for the love of God, please don't try to claim that our government was the cause of the GLOBAL FINANCIAL CRISIS (hint: the clue is in the name). Frankly if you still believe that myth peddled by the Daily Mail et al. then you're beyond hope.

I also don't agree that everything state run doesn't work. Our railways are an expensive mess and have been for a number of years. Many of the European rail networks are run by state owned companies and are cheaper, more efficient and faster. Any profits made go back in to the public purse or in to upgrading the rail infrastructure and making rail travel cheaper which is exactly how it should be in my opinion. As always examples of where the Tory obsession with privatising everything is to the detriment of our own people but other countries benefit are easy to come by , Abellio, who run East Midlands Railway, is owned 100% by the Dutch government. The profits made by over charging British people will be used to improve the Dutch railways which is so effective and efficient that it's the third busiest rail structure in the world. So who has won from this monstrosity? As always with Tory policy, it isn't the great British public.

We've had 12 years of progressively right wing policies and the country is in a complete  mess. If you're happy allowing the rich and powerful to profit further whilst the rest of us see worsening standards of living and poorer public services then that's up to you. But myself and others on here would prefer a change because frankly it couldn't get much worse than the path we're headed down.

Quoted from mariner91

The problem we have Humbo is that you can't seem to grasp that Marxism is one extreme end of a spectrum of socialism. You are not intelligent enough to understand the differences between different ideologies and only see an "us" and "them" scenario. With anything on the left being different to your way of thinking and therefore must be evil. I'm not a Marxist, I'm sure many on here wouldn't identify as a Marxist either. Hell, despite what the right wing media have convinced you even Jeremy Corbyn wasn't a Marxist. You trying to lump all forms of socialism together as one "evil" is no different to someone claiming that anything on the right is evil because the Nazis were awful. Is Thatcherism evil because it's the same side of the political spectrum as Nazism?

As for states that we should aspire to then the Nordic Model, particularly that of Norway, would be something that I would be over the moon with. I don't mind having a mixed market economy. But I don't agree with natural monopolies like water companies being run for private gain. They should be run by the state with any profit made put back into investing in infrastructure for the people of the country and not in to dividends for the rich. I don't think the energy market should be private in the UK, particularly when companies like EDF are owned by foreign governments. As a rabid Brexiteer, the thought that your energy bills are paying for French pensions would likely make your head explode. I also don't think that oil and gas for example, which were formed naturally under the country that we all occupy, should be used to make billions of pounds for a small part of society. The money made from exporting and producing them should be used to benefit all of us. Essentially, the state should have a large ownership of key sectors, particularly ones like those mentioned above.

I'm quite happy for high taxation if it means we have good infrastructure, good schooling and a health service that works. You've fallen in to the trap from the right wing media of being convinced that foreigners/socialists/benefit claimants/the EU/transexuals/delete as appropriate are the cause of your misery. But ask yourself why has the economy grown since 2008 yet in real terms the majority of us are far worse off? The rich have become obscenely rich and it's to the detriment of the rest of us. As a socialist, I would like this to be addressed. I have no issue with people working hard and being successful and I invite them to enjoy their wealth. But something is incredibly wrong if we're the seventh biggest economy in the world but have people in full time work relying on food banks to feed themselves. So all I ask is that we rebalance the wealth within the country a bit more, stop the rich evading tax and make sure people are properly remunerated for their labour. Without the working and middle class, everything stops running so why are we only offered crumbs from those that sit at the top table?

Great post mate, but wasted on Humbo, who’s opinions are all fixed, finished and flawed.

Bizarre how you seem to claim Socialism as something only you understand. Once again take it back to its fundamentals Socialism is Socialism, an autocratic belief system based on envy and class warfare, the state owns everything including you.
I don’t think you are the socialist that you claim, I would say you’re more a Social Democrat that subconsciously accepts the need for a form of capitalism for the greater good, but you seem to pick and choose struggling with the word interpretation, take the welfare state for example you claim this is explicably Socialism in action, it’s absolutely not there are many forms of the welfare state incorporated around the world regardless of economic ideology’s and by all accounts it was created by a capitalist!
And as for a free at the point of service healthcare system… again not socialism in action! Take a look around the world there are not many places I can think of in a western society where healthcare isn’t classed as free at the point of service, and the mass majority that do have nothing to do with socialism. The NHS is obviously different with socialist means and principles which has led it to become the busted flush that it is. I’ve just recovered from a knee operation carried out at St Hughes exceptional service,  I’d dread to think how long I’d be waiting to have it done at Diana Prince of Wales I would scrap the NHS in a heartbeat.

I’m not surprised that your now claiming Blair’s government was socialist and you call me a wind up merchant😂 go back and have a  look at the Wilson and Callaghan governments if you really want to see socialism in action😬