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 barralad |
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Mariners Trust
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Quite obviously it is simply ridiculous to claim that everyone who voted Leave is "thick". I have a close friend some time poster on here who has a very good degree and is a successful business man who was Leave from the day the referendum was announced. Clearly with the exception of UKIP the debate cut across party political lines. There was the so'-called Lexit group from the left of the Labour party who put across very compelling arguments for Leave none of which bore any resemblence at all to the arguments put forward about immigration from the Right. The issues were massively complex and in reality it was impossible to conclude that either option was 100% right.
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| The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
Joseph Joubert. |
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| Roast Em Bobby |
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Just to be clear - I've not said "everyone", I said enough to swing the balance to exit.
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| Vance Warner |
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In fifty years of voting in every election i have never once been swayed by listening to any politician , in fact most of them are liars anyway, and anyone who is persuaded by what they tell you can't know their own mind. Gut feeling is always best, some you win, some you lose, thats life.
Nice to know our future has been decided by people's gut feelings. |
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| barralad |
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Mariners Trust
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Just to be clear - I've not said "everyone", I said enough to swing the balance to exit.
Fair enough. It wasnt really aimed at you. That's why I didn't quote your post. Unfortunately for the Leave camp there are plenty of bits of video evidence to support your view. Had Remain won then the same level of scrutiny may have been employed by the media and we might have got a shock. I consider myself reasonably intelligent but if I was asked in the street such a question as someone not particularly skilled in getting my point across in public I may come across as a bit daft. |
| The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
Joseph Joubert. |
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| barralad |
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Mariners Trust
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There's a lot of sore losers on here today,
Mal you think its going to be all doom and gloom,
Well that's another lie you were fed,
Have a bit of faith in your own country we will be better of you wait and see.
It's not really about sore losers though is it? Whoever negotiates our exit from the E.U. should do so knowing that in the great scheme of things the majority for Leave was pretty small. This country will do better post-Brexit if there is some evidence of unity. Had the vote gone the other way there would have been an equal amount of biaching. I heard Farage live on telly on Thursday night when he thought that the vote was lost (about 11.30 p.m.) that it was because the Government had extended the deadline for registration by 48 hours! Then we had the ridiculous conspiracy theory regarding pens and pencils.... |
| The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
Joseph Joubert. |
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| Marinerz93 |
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It's interesting you state you voted out because democracy and unelected bureaucrats.
Brussels works like this: the (unelected) commission, headed by 28 (now 27) commissioners appointed by the member states, proposes laws, in areas where national governments allow them to. To come into force, these must then be approved by majorities in both the council of ministers, made up of (mostly elected) EU ministers, and parliament (elected).
The term bureaucratic is interesting too. EU has 55,000 civil servants, the UK has 440,000.
Democratic” can be defined in different ways. The EU looks less democratic than most countries, for example. But some might also say a country with a hereditary monarchy, an unelected upper house and a parliamentary majority based on 35% of the popular vote is not very democratic either.
Maybe we aren't as democratic as you believe.
You are right about the power of big corporations controling things of course. It's an interesting question if those corporations will now have more control over a small, possibly isolated, island rather an entire multinational bloc.
At the end of the day, if you voted to leave on those issues. I have no complaint against you. I can't argue your points are wrong, only time will tell us. Your arguments seem reasoned and that you look into the reasons. I disagree with you but I can understand your frustrations.
I think what most of the remain camp believe is that the vote to leave was swung by people voting to leave because of the wrong reasons. Whether that was because of xenophobic reasons (I have seen this first hand so I know it exists). People believing the clear lies the Leave camp put up as their main campaign points (£350 million on the NHS, the backtracking they are already doing on immigration or the promise to immediately enact article 50) or the protest vote from under funded area (this is successive governments fault not the EU's).
This leaves us with a sense of frustration and feeling cheated. Also, I think there is a little guilt there that most of the passion from the Remain campaign has only come out once defeated. The Leave campaign had this passion in abundance during the campaign.
I have no argument with someone like yourself who has looked at the issues and decided there own mind on reason. Unfortunately, I've heard far too many people give very unreasoned arguments.
Fair comments MarinerMal, however, we are one of the most under represented countries by population, for every 800,000 Uk citizens we have 1 MEP, for Ireland it is 400,000 = 1 MEP, and Malta if I remember rightly for every one Malta citizens is worth 12 UK citizens for MEP's, that is grossly undemocratic. The lobbyists control in Brussels is vast, 2nd only to Washington, we of course get lobbying in the UK but we also have accountability. So it is public if 3 major corporations get together to make a road map that suits their business with our money. Civil servants, we have the MOD, pensions office, it would be more interesting if you had posted how many civil servants working in legislation. How many of that 55,000 are British. As for the house of Lords, I've never liked that but it has been changed by Government and is accountable. The Queen has no power but the debate whether she is value for money is for another time. The NHS point is also a good one to bring up, how much does Germany, France, and a host of other countries claim off our NHS compared to what we claim off theirs, the figures are an eye opener to how much we are being fleeced. The amount of medical tourists is figure that would shock people. I fully agree that every government has left large areas of the north to rot, the EU exacerbated that issue by forcing a policy were thousands of low skilled workers mop up the remaining work. You are right again that many people have made their mind up by which way they voted, this was on both sides not just leave. The debates leading up to the vote were extremely poor by both sides. We are the first to leave, how we get treated will open people's eyes to how the EU unelected bureaucrats act, the EU didn't even try to keep us in. |
| Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock. |
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| grimsby pete |
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Quite obviously it is simply ridiculous to claim that everyone who voted Leave is "thick". I have a close friend some time poster on here who has a very good degree and is a successful business man who was Leave from the day the referendum was announced. Clearly with the exception of UKIP the debate cut across party political lines. There was the so'-called Lexit group from the left of the Labour party who put across very compelling arguments for Leave none of which bore any resemblence at all to the arguments put forward about immigration from the Right. The issues were massively complex and in reality it was impossible to conclude that either option was 100% right.
You also got a friend on here who voted out who is thick, me  |
| Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
68 Years following the Town
Life member of Trust
First game April 1955
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| Grim74 |
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It's just sheer arrogance by those on the remain side on here to say that those who voted leave are thick and easily led, how pathetic and sad to see
such bitterness a classic case of clutching at straws to try and justify losing a democratic vote.
I wonder just how many of the 48% that lost the vote had voted IN because of fear and lies?
The establishment threw everything at us including the kitchen sink we had listen to scare story after scare story.
My work manager for example told me he was edging to vote for out until Osbourne threatened us with the brexit budget!
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| Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour. |
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| Bawmariner |
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I'm not going to say Leave voters are thick. As people say they come from a wide cross section of people.
What I will say though is that the referendum was flawed whoever won. First off its a vastly complex issue that I don't understand. I've done a lot of research on the topic and my girlfriend is incredibly knowledgeable about the EU and I still don't know the different chambers etc. I also think the vote has been influenced by dodgy stats and issues that aren't actually anything to do with the EU such as a protest vote against the lack of investment in the north east and East Midlands.
Finally I think both leave and remain should have given a clear propostion (similar to a manifesto) of what people were voting for. Remain had this partly with Cameron's negotiation. I honestly think that in 3 years when people realise what they have voted for they will regret. There is no going back. Once we are out we can't get back in ever. This not a general election were if a government f**ks up we vote in the other guys to sort the mess out.
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| Perkins |
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Fine Wine Drinker Posts: 1,412
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Not really, I'll introduce you to my Mum if you like - who is currently promoting the idea of Farage as Prime Minister on facebook. Alternatively I could send you facebook links to friends who have been re-posting untrue right wing (racist) propaganda for the last 3 months - with comments alongside such as 'nuff said'.
Obviously you couldn't have helped having a Mum like that but i think you could be a little choosier about your friends. I do agree with you on one point, Farage is an odious human being who plays on peoples fears. Thanks for the offer about Facebook but i think ill pass on that one, i don't really want to read crap like what people are having for their tea. In the mean time, Clam Down Dear!!! |
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barralad
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