Very Quiet

Its gone very quiet.................


...............someone must know something !

No news is good news.

Far too silent for my liking!!!

Takeover gone very very quiet, no news from Training Camp??

Off-Season is sh1t3

Town released a statement regarding the takeover last week saying that there are non-disclosure agreements in place. Unless you want to watch and try to comprehend interpretive dance performances for news you won’t get none!

Silence is GOLDEN..

Which will happen first, Brexit or Fexit?

Shoot it or boot it (the tyre)...

Plenty of rumours though and it`s the hope that kills you . The media have got Freemo up in lights again today and agin the stadium is mentioned and a huge part of the story. This isn`t going away it`s going to happen I am 100% convinced of that and in itself will rightfully bring the football club much needed outside investment. Sadly we are going to need to exercise patience and given Great Coates,PP etc that`s not an easy pill to digest but it is reality . We will be a Club on the up very soon and unlike many others we are one with genuine potential and a pretty much untapped population to fleece.

Quoted from 1mickylyons

Plenty of rumours though and it`s the hope that kills you . The media have got Freemo up in lights again today and agin the stadium is mentioned and a huge part of the story. This isn`t going away it`s going to happen I am 100% convinced of that and in itself will rightfully bring the football club much needed outside investment. Sadly we are going to need to exercise patience and given Great Coates,PP etc that`s not an easy pill to digest but it is reality . We will be a Club on the up very soon and unlike many others we are one with genuine potential and a pretty much untapped population to fleece.

I'm not sure that's true. We're well supported for the size of the Town, here's a site listing attendance as a percentage of town size [url]https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/league-two-attendances-dons-grimsby-2266318[/url] . We have a bigger area in terms of NE Lincs, but the teams above us also have lots of towns around them without football clubs.

Looking at league 1, we're still doing well.[url]https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/league-one-attendances-sunderland-portsmouth-2295902[/url]

Couple of trialists with town in Cheshire more than likely

Not sure if this has been posted on here already but here is the Freemo plan shown at an open event this week.

[img]https://www.gi-media.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Freeman-plan-1200x600.jpg[/img]

Quoted from pizzzza

Not sure if this has been posted on here already but here is the Freemo plan shown at an open event this week.

[img]https://www.gi-media.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Freeman-plan-1200x600.jpg[/img]

First I've seen of it! Looks good. Let's get it done. Not long now before Twitter goes into meltdown.

Quoted from pen penfras

I'm not sure that's true. We're well supported for the size of the Town, here's a site listing attendance as a percentage of town size [url]https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/league-two-attendances-dons-grimsby-2266318[/url] . We have a bigger area in terms of NE Lincs, but the teams above us also have lots of towns around them without football clubs.

Looking at league 1, we're still doing well.[url]https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/league-one-attendances-sunderland-portsmouth-2295902[/url]

Ok well I give you Burnley for starters. Check the average gate there prior to them hitting the Prem they have a lower catchment area than us but they do a hell of a lot more community work and they have far more competition from neighbouring Clubs.

Quoted from pen penfras

I'm not sure that's true. We're well supported for the size of the Town, here's a site listing attendance as a percentage of town size [url]https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/league-two-attendances-dons-grimsby-2266318[/url] . We have a bigger area in terms of NE Lincs, but the teams above us also have lots of towns around them without football clubs.

Looking at league 1, we're still doing well.[url]https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/league-one-attendances-sunderland-portsmouth-2295902[/url]

Please show me any example of Town really trying to make an effort to get in the untapped support in the last 40 years? I don`t blame Fenty for this in fact I will go even as far to say on his watch Town have done far more than ever to drag bodies in based on what I have seen. Proper marketing people will be involved when the new ground comes and if it`s sold to joe public correctly they wont have an issue filling seats with bodies. Likewise Blundell Park should be seeing SOLD OUT signs in it`s final Season based on the nostalgia we all have for the old girl.

Quoted from pizzzza

Not sure if this has been posted on here already but here is the Freemo plan shown at an open event this week.

[img]https://www.gi-media.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Freeman-plan-1200x600.jpg[/img]

I mean just how bloody brilliant does that look for the Town the people pushing this need applauding and make no mistake the whole Town are behind them it`s at least 25 years overdue the regeneration of that area.Well done

Quoted from pizzzza

Not sure if this has been posted on here already but here is the Freemo plan shown at an open event this week.

[img]https://www.gi-media.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Freeman-plan-1200x600.jpg[/img]

That looks very impressive , I hope I live long enough to see the finished product,

Here's hoping.

Quoted from grimsby pete

That looks very impressive , I hope I live long enough to see the finished product,

Here's hoping.

I will wager you need hang around for 3-4 years to see that more or less completed Pete .I expect work to start early next year in terms of actual buildings going up ,I may be wrong but thought I read the new YMCA would be getting started early next year?

Quoted from 1mickylyons

I will wager you need hang around for 3-4 years to see that more or less completed Pete .I expect work to start early next year in terms of actual buildings going up ,I may be wrong but thought I read the new YMCA would be getting started early next year?

That would make me 75 mate, I think ( hope ) I might be able to manage that.

Quoted from 1mickylyons

I will wager you need hang around for 3-4 years to see that more or less completed Pete .I expect work to start early next year in terms of actual buildings going up ,I may be wrong but thought I read the new YMCA would be getting started early next year?

If this development takes as long as everything else that happens around here you can take that dash out from between the 3 -4 years .

Quoted from pen penfras

I'm not sure that's true. We're well supported for the size of the Town, here's a site listing attendance as a percentage of town size [url]https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/league-two-attendances-dons-grimsby-2266318[/url] . We have a bigger area in terms of NE Lincs, but the teams above us also have lots of towns around them without football clubs.

Looking at league 1, we're still doing well.[url]https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/league-one-attendances-sunderland-portsmouth-2295902[/url]

The population of Cleethorpes should be included as we are two towns merged in effect.

Quoted from grimsby pete

That would make me 75 mate, I think ( hope ) I might be able to manage that.

I'm 80 Pete so let's hang on in there

Quoted from 1mickylyons

Ok well I give you Burnley for starters. Check the average gate there prior to them hitting the Prem they have a lower catchment area than us but they do a hell of a lot more community work and they have far more competition from neighbouring Clubs.

Burnley has a huge population around it, although a lot more competition as you say. But my point wasn't that we can't do better, it was that we're actually already well supported compared to most teams that are at our level and where we want to be. Doesn't mean it can't be better, but there isn't likely to be a large untapped population when only a few clubs are doing much better. And most of those were performing significantly better on the pitch.

About 10 years ago I worked in Castleford and had to travel around the area to other small towns including Featherstone. It's proper rugby league heartland.

Anyone who has been to Featherstone will know it's about the size of Louth. Castleford is the same size as Cleethorpes in terms of population. But on match days it seems everyone in the town goes to their games.

In a world where you can't ignore football, it doesn't really register with the folk of Castleford and Featherstone (and Wakefield, and a few other places). Rugby League is just something you get behind and play if you grow up there. Football's a laugh; rugby league is the real stuff.

People often look down their noses at places like Castleford - you know, mining towns fallen on hard times; proper working class areas, but I admire their spirit and it does remind me of home - we lost our industry, just as they did. We have a lot in common.

Castleford and Featherstone are the cornerstones of their communities. They are everything, and they're everywhere. Kids just want to go to matches, and play, and the clubs involve them. Their allegiance is locked in as early as possible and that's it - the clubs have got them for life.

They're not after glory. They could go and support Leeds, or Wigan, but they don't because their local club is part of their identity. Admittedly, RL and football aren't directly comparable, but despite being such small places they have this incredible ability to galvanise the towns and bring in the crowds, even if there's no glory to be had - and I think there's a lot we can learn from that.

I see no car parking facilities.

Quoted from Grim74

The population of Cleethorpes should be included as we are two towns merged in effect.

Agreed, but I looked at the teams above us and Crewe have Nantwich, Winsford and a few other towns around them. Tranmere have the whole of the Wirral. Carlisle have a huge area with few clubs around. The same argument could be made for those.

Quoted from Grim74

The population of Cleethorpes should be included as we are two towns merged in effect.

Not if you ask people who consider themselves 'Owls' before Mariners.  I'll let this one go, one day.......

Quoted from barrattstandman

I see no car parking facilities.

Would you want to leave your car anywhere near Freeman Street

Quoted from pen penfras

Agreed, but I looked at the teams above us and Crewe have Nantwich, Winsford and a few other towns around them. Tranmere have the whole of the Wirral. Carlisle have a huge area with few clubs around. The same argument could be made for those.

Give over. Prenton Park is 6 miles from Anfield and Goodison Park. Two of the biggest clubs in the country. The closest ground of a team worth talking about to Blundell Park is Scunny's which is almost 30 miles. There's no way you can possibly compare the potential catchment area for Tranmere and Town.

As for the Crewe comparison, Nantwich is about the same size as Louth and Winsford is smaller than Cleethorpes. You can try and spin it all you like but the board should be doing better with the catchment area and size of population that Town have. North East Lincolnshire alone has a population of 160,000 and the east coast of Lincolnshire is much closer to Grimsby than any other FL club, if done right that area should be entirely Town supporting. Added on to that teams like Tranmere and Crewe are close to some of the biggest clubs in the country, the nearest Premier League team to Town is Sheffield United which is 70 miles away and let's be honest, they'll only be there for one season.

Quoted from barrattstandman

I see no car parking facilities.

Get the train to the redeveloped Grimsby Docks station or there are loads of buses down Cleethorpes Road and Freemo. Not encouraging everyone to drive there is a good thing in my opinion.

You'd think we could get 8-9000 (it would be nice) if we were in the top half, add a few thousand more for championship plus the extra away following. But we don't. Normally 5500 in the championship, give or take a thousand. Some good entertainment/football in the 90s
I live 100mile away so seldom go to home games but judging by gates over the last 30years, people aren't interested
You could almost give the tickets away, and we have done in the past, and we'd struggle to sell more tickets

1995 A good time to be a town fan. Big game i remember against Charlton to decide who would go top -
Att 6800

Off subject and im too young to remember but ref a pic of a newspaper cutting from the 80s when Lineker played for Leicester in the first div. They only had 10k to a game against a wolves. 30k now and I'd imagine most are season tickets. Everton v villa 15k. Birmingham 9k. That was top flight, and it was standing

A new stadium can work wonders. Donny's attendances more than doubled their first season in the new one, as did Huddersfields'. People will come if the product is right. Still love BP though, that'll never die.

Quoted from nightrider

You'd think we could get 8-9000 (it would be nice) if we were in the top half, add a few thousand more for championship plus the extra away following. But we don't. Normally 5500 in the championship, give or take a thousand. Some good entertainment/football in the 90s
I live 100mile away so seldom go to home games but judging by gates over the last 30years, people aren't interested
You could almost give the tickets away, and we have done in the past, and we'd struggle to sell more tickets

but the club fail to to even try and capitalise when the going gets good, sit on their laurels and therefore its easy to stay away when the times are hard....since our first trips to Wembley in 98 we have immediately lost / failed to retain the 10's of thousands of supporters that went to those games.....
our eventual return to the League was met with long delays on releasing season tickets....which eventually came out after we had announced some of the best loved players had left and oh yes...the prices were going up !!  Thats just one example.

Quoted from moosey_club

but the club fail to to even try and capitalise when the going gets good, sit on their laurels and therefore its easy to stay away when the times are hard....since our first trips to Wembley in 98 we have immediately lost / failed to retain the 10's of thousands of supporters that went to those games.....
our eventual return to the League was met with long delays on releasing season tickets....which eventually came out after we had announced some of the best loved players had left and oh yes...the prices were going up !!  Thats just one example.

There are lots of factors that impact attendances at BP.  With all the major industries either in decline or disappeared over the last 20 years (the fishing industry, Findus, Birds Eye, KP Foods, Ciba-Geigy, Courtaulds, Tioxide, just a few that spring to mind). These companies employed thousands, sadly the younger generation, have to move out of the town to find employment, thats why we have a good following at away games, exiles, scattered all over the country.
Watching football in no longer a working man's game, the aveage family is being priced out,  football in this country, is killing the game, or should I say the Premiership and player's AGENTS. Foreign Manager's moaning in the Premiership they play too many games, wanting a winter break and no replays in the league cup and now after the fourth round in the FA cup there are no replays, so less chance for the lower teams to make a bit of money from replays.
Then there is BP, it has the oldest stand in the football league, which has to be maintained, which will cost the club.  The club has tried to move, however we have the most backward thinking council in the entire country, which has stopped the club moving forward.
Had we moved to Great Coates, we would have had more modern facilities, less maintenance costs, which might allowed a bigger player budget.
Grimsby will always have the diehard element, that will always support the club, through what ever.
Until their is substantial investment in the town, whoever is at the helm, will struggle.
One thing for sure, is come the first game of this season, I will at there, because, I am Grimsby until I die.

UTM.

Quoted from The Yard Dog

There are lots of factors that impact attendances at BP.  With all the major industries either in decline or disappeared over the last 20 years (the fishing industry, Findus, Birds Eye, KP Foods, Ciba-Geigy, Courtaulds, Tioxide, just a few that spring to mind). These companies employed thousands, sadly the younger generation, have to move out of the town to find employment, thats why we have a good following at away games, exiles, scattered all over the country.
Watching football in no longer a working man's game, the aveage family is being priced out,  football in this country, is killing the game, or should I say the Premiership and player's AGENTS. Foreign Manager's moaning in the Premiership they play too many games, wanting a winter break and no replays in the league cup and now after the fourth round in the FA cup there are no replays, so less chance for the lower teams to make a bit of money from replays.
Then there is BP, it has the oldest stand in the football league, which has to be maintained, which will cost the club.  The club has tried to move, however we have the most backward thinking council in the entire country, which has stopped the club moving forward.
Had we moved to Great Coates, we would have had more modern facilities, less maintenance costs, which might allowed a bigger player budget.
Grimsby will always have the diehard element, that will always support the club, through what ever.
Until their is substantial investment in the town, whoever is at the helm, will struggle.
One thing for sure, is come the first game of this season, I will at there, because, I am Grimsby until I die.

UTM.

Most of that applies to other northern towns.

Quoted from Garth

I'm 80 Pete so let's hang on in there

I will do my best Garth if we are still here when the new ground opens we will have to have a drink together in the posh new bar to celebrate

Quoted from grimsby pete

I will do my best Garth if we are still here when the new ground opens we will have to have a drink together in the posh new bar to celebrate

The posh new bar called FENTY'S  

Quoted from promotion plaice

The posh new bar called FENTY'S  

There used to be a fishy table in the Imp where I met a few posters in the past so maybe we could get one in the new bar   PP .

Quoted from nightrider

You'd think we could get 8-9000 (it would be nice) if we were in the top half, add a few thousand more for championship plus the extra away following. But we don't. Normally 5500 in the championship, give or take a thousand. Some good entertainment/football in the 90s
I live 100mile away so seldom go to home games but judging by gates over the last 30years, people aren't interested
You could almost give the tickets away, and we have done in the past, and we'd struggle to sell more tickets

1995 A good time to be a town fan. Big game i remember against Charlton to decide who would go top -
Att 6800

Off subject and im too young to remember but ref a pic of a newspaper cutting from the 80s when Lineker played for Leicester in the first div. They only had 10k to a game against a wolves. 30k now and I'd imagine most are season tickets. Everton v villa 15k. Birmingham 9k. That was top flight, and it was standing

Check out crowds at Rotherham, Chesterfield as well as Donny as mentioned above, before they moved. Town get more in now than any of those three did in their old grounds. Also you've mentioned Charlton above - check their crowd at the old Valley in the early 80s - I saw Town win their in a second division game in front of 4k. Town haven't had the bounce in home crowds that many (most) clubs have because Blundell Park is the problem - it is just not acceptable to many people who would watch live sport and still has the spectre of violence in the streets around the ground for local derbies. Some will still remember Leeds  / Stoke / Wednesday  / Blades...BP was just not a nice place to bring kids to a game on many occasions.

Quoted from grimsby pete

I will do my best Garth if we are still here when the new ground opens we will have to have a drink together in the posh new bar to celebrate

See you there in five years time

It appears the Freemen still plan to knock down all the houses on Thesiger Walk. I guess that won't be too much of a problem if the homes are not privately owned.

As for car parking, there's around 100 spaces on Garibaldi Street for a start. Orwell Street. Railway Street. Perhaps an arrangement could be made with the Ice House on Victor Street. I don't know if Asda and Tesco would introduce parking charges for customers. You could leave your vehicle in Freshney Place and get a bus to the stadium.

Quoted from pen penfras

Agreed, but I looked at the teams above us and Crewe have Nantwich, Winsford and a few other towns around them. Tranmere have the whole of the Wirral. Carlisle have a huge area with few clubs around. The same argument could be made for those.

Your point does have some validity but when I first started watching Town buses of supporters came in fromallover Lincs we pulled in support from Rasen,Louth,Horncastle,Mablethorpe,Skegness,Caistor,Barton I bet that`s now dwindled to a handful of fans. The people are out there the 15k that have followed Town to Wembley numerous times prove that it`s retaining them that`s the problem and in Towns case based on the FGR Wembley game they struggle to retain any of those extras.

One of the biggest myths on this site is that because we took x number to Wembley then we should get these supporters to home games blah blah.  There are Town fans all over the country and all over the world.  For a play off game at Wembley, many of those fans will travel from far and wide to be there.  However, we aren’t all going to make a home game on a Saturday afternoon or Tuesday evening.  

[/b]

Quoted from LondonMariner43

One of the biggest myths on this site is that because we took x number to Wembley then we should get these supporters to home games blah blah.  There are Town fans all over the country and all over the world.  For a play off game at Wembley, many of those fans will travel from far and wide to be there.  [b]However, we aren’t all going to make a home game on a Saturday afternoon or Tuesday evening.  

But lots of local families could. Sadly, ticket options and lacklustre fan engagement keep us in the slow lane. Too much reliance on old codgers like me travelling from afar. The hinterland should be the focus.

Quoted from promotion plaice

The posh new bar called FENTY'S  

Looking forward to running up my benign tab at this bar

Quoted from LondonMariner43

One of the biggest myths on this site is that because we took x number to Wembley then we should get these supporters to home games blah blah.  There are Town fans all over the country and all over the world.  For a play off game at Wembley, many of those fans will travel from far and wide to be there.  However, we aren’t all going to make a home game on a Saturday afternoon or Tuesday evening.  

I suggest you look at how many people travelled from Grimsby area itself for the games and it would be well in excess of 10k so more than double our average home gate. The failure to retain a chunk of that support is a failing whatever way you look at it . Those other supporters who travelled from far and wide you mention is obviously a much more difficult challenge.

We have a lot of fans who pick and choose, and make late decisions, on whether they want to go to a match. I'm not having a go, or accusing anyone of being fair weather fans. It's just a fact.

We have 3,000 season ticket holders, maybe 1,000 more who go regularly when they can, but beyond that, well, it's up for grabs.

A home game on a Saturday should be something that everyone goes to because they always have. Force of habit. Part of their routine. In an ideal world for the club, it should be 'yeah, of course I'm going to the match! Why wouldn't I?'

Sadly, I think the club have, over the last decade or two, given the fans plenty of reasons not to go. So now we need to start converting those fair weather fans into core fans. We've let things drift for too long.

I grew up thinking I'd always be part of that core 3,000. But I moved away, and now I'm an exile. I could make more matches than the ones I do attend, but I fell out of that habitual routine a while ago.

Maybe the club will never be able to truly re-convert the likes of me again. Perhaps they should focus on the next generation and lock them in somehow. Might take another decade to repair the damage that's been done over the last two.

Build it and they will come !

The thing about living in town is that after every game, the number of people that constantly ask me about the game, and the club in general. There is a lot of interest in the club from fans that don't go anymore but are genuinely interested and would always wish us well and still say they are fans.

Problem is turning that latent support into fans through the turnstiles. Ask why they don't go and you get a lot of different answers but generally because of where we are and once they stop going it's very difficult to get them back again.

Quoted from Sir Matt Tease

Build it and they will come !

This.

It's a chicken and egg situation a lot of fans will only go to the big games for whatever reason

A successful side will bring in the fans but the club needs to bring in better players to climb up the leagues, they can only do that if we have the resources to bring them in so we need the fans to come so we have the resources to improve.

The other way is to bring in younger players from within if they are good enough plus have a nice new stadium that fans feel comfortable in and enjoy the experience.

Hopefully within a few years we will not only have a new stadium plenty of talented youths forcing their way into the 1st team but much higher gates so we can attract better players.

Simple don't you think ?  

Quoted from mimma

The thing about living in town is that after every game, the number of people that constantly ask me about the game, and the club in general. There is a lot of interest in the club from fans that don't go anymore but are genuinely interested and would always wish us well and still say they are fans.

Problem is turning that latent support into fans through the turnstiles. Ask why they don't go and you get a lot of different answers but generally because of where we are and once they stop going it's very difficult to get them back again.

This in buckets is also my experience I speak with dozens of lapsed Town fans who have stopped for dozens of reasons but the most obvious they are simply out the habit.

Parking...access from meggies etc accessible if the station is still in use. Even the likes of maybe having a sort of park and ride from new clee station to docks station.

Support...there are many that find it too expensive so would have to pick and choose games. With a new ground, we also have a blank canvas. Ask the fans, you know, the people that matter, where certain ends should be (where to put away fans/new pontoon/family section etc) this way, offers could be applied to certain areas. A non static stadium is a must.

Would players prefer to play in a new stadium or train on good facilities?

Good facilities reduce injuries etc so any new stadium needs to include leading facilities or out facilities need upgrading first.

Good facilities bring in better players. Any potential new signings have a look at the club first before committing themselves. One look around our facilities and the first offer they get from another club with anything like decent facilities and they're gone
It's the same scenario which loan players. A club that want to loan out one of their starlets take a look and think we're not risking his development there thank you very much.

Could be significant.. Tom Shutes has just retweeted a few good luck messages re the takeover..

https://twitter.com/thstas

Also encouraging.. the content of the tweets he has retweeted..

I read that as nothing more than applying a bit of pressure in a kind of ‘I’m the people’s choice of steward for the club [and not a steward in a hi vis jacket sense]’ 😉

I'm not sure if Network Rail would be keen to build a new footbridge at a station with just one platform. There's a pedestrian walkway within the nearby Cleethorpes Road flyover.

Quoted from White_shorts

I'm not sure if Network Rail would be keen to build a new footbridge at a station with just one platform. There's a pedestrian walkway within the nearby Cleethorpes Road flyover.

I doubt very much if Network Rail will pay for any station refurbishment at either Docks Station or New Clee. When the Great Coates site was being discussed they wanted the club to pay for Great Coates station to be updated so I doubt very much if their position will change for the two stations in question.

Quoted from rancido

I doubt very much if Network Rail will pay for any station refurbishment at either Docks Station or New Clee. When the Great Coates site was being discussed they wanted the club to pay for Great Coates station to be updated so I doubt very much if their position will change for the two stations in question.

Imagine if their forebears in the MS&LR* had taken the attitude that the businesses of Grimsby and Cleethorpes would benefit from the railway so they could bloody well pay for the thing! The railway company then had the vision to not only build the docks but also the prom at Cleethorpes because both would increase their traffic..

* Manchester, Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Imagine if their forebears in the MS&LR* had taken the attitude that the businesses of Grimsby and Cleethorpes would benefit from the railway so they could bloody well pay for the thing! The railway company then had the vision to not only build the docks but also the prom at Cleethorpes because both would increase their traffic..

* Manchester, Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway.

But the MSL&R did build Docks Station and they did it for huge financial reasons. Their main reasons was for the number of people in the area that would use a rail link on a daily basis. The access of the railway to Grimsby ( especially the docks ) was for the hugely lucrative freight business generated by the port. The fishing industry added to this and at it's height in excess of 20 fish trains alone left Grimsby every day of the working week. The later extension to Cleethorpes was built purely for the huge numbers of holiday makers from South Yorkshire that wanted to access the seaside. Now there is no freight at all that leaves Grimsby Docks by rail and I would hardly imagine the possible use of a station on 23 occasions a year would justify the costs incurred. The holiday maker travel to Cleethorpes has reduced greatly in the last 50 years. I remember up to 30 rail excursions coming into Cleethorpes on a Sunday in the summer during the early 1960's. To my knowledge there are none now. Even the MSL&R and its later format the GCR would never have considered such an outlay for such a small return in the case of upgrading Grimsby Docks station and New Clee.

Quoted from rancido

But the MSL&R did build Docks Station and they did it for huge financial reasons. Their main reasons was for the number of people in the area that would use a rail link on a daily basis. The access of the railway to Grimsby ( especially the docks ) was for the hugely lucrative freight business generated by the port. The fishing industry added to this and at it's height in excess of 20 fish trains alone left Grimsby every day of the working week. The later extension to Cleethorpes was built purely for the huge numbers of holiday makers from South Yorkshire that wanted to access the seaside. Now there is no freight at all that leaves Grimsby Docks by rail and I would hardly imagine the possible use of a station on 23 occasions a year would justify the costs incurred. The holiday maker travel to Cleethorpes has reduced greatly in the last 50 years. I remember up to 30 rail excursions coming into Cleethorpes on a Sunday in the summer during the early 1960's. To my knowledge there are none now. Even the MSL&R and its later format the GCR would never have considered such an outlay for such a small return in the case of upgrading Grimsby Docks station and New Clee.

Yes. My point entirely. It was a visionary thing to do. And risky. If they'd just taken the line that we're in the railway business and we''ll only build where there's an established market, they wouldn't have even built the line let alone the dock. When the railway was built, there weren't many people living there to use it! No railway, then no docks, no docks no mass fishing industry. No industry no people to use the railway. If they'd taken decisions purely on the basis of an existing market they wouldn't have bothered extending the line beyond say Donny.

Same with Cleethorpes and the promenade. The prom was built by the railway. They built up their own market by investing in non-railway assets.  It had visitors before the railway, but the railway allowed Cleethorpes to massively expand and the railway financed prom gave people more reason to come.

The Docks station might only be needed for 23 days when football matches are played, but when that whole area is regenerated there's lots of other scope for traffic. If the example of Docks Beers say is followed and other food and drink business open up ...GY and Cleethorpes could become more of a leisure destination. Go by rail.  Leave the car at home.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Yes. My point entirely. It was a visionary thing to do. And risky. If they'd just taken the line that we're in the railway business and we''ll only build where there's an established market, they wouldn't have even built the line let alone the dock. When the railway was built, there weren't many people living there to use it! No railway, then no docks, no docks no mass fishing industry. No industry no people to use the railway. If they'd taken decisions purely on the basis of an existing market they wouldn't have bothered extending the line beyond say Donny.

Same with Cleethorpes and the promenade. The prom was built by the railway. They built up their own market by investing in non-railway assets.  It had visitors before the railway, but the railway allowed Cleethorpes to massively expand and the railway financed prom gave people more reason to come.

The Docks station might only be needed for 23 days when football matches are played, but when that whole area is regenerated there's lots of other scope for traffic. If the example of Docks Beers say is followed and other food and drink business open up ...GY and Cleethorpes could become more of a leisure destination. Go by rail.  Leave the car at home.

I didn't know any of this. Really interesting. Sad to see Cleethorpes station as it is now. I remember it being rammed in summer. You could barely get a seat on the trans pennine DMUs, or the four coach trains to and from Newark North Gate in the late 70s/early 80s. And don't get me started on the 125 London train. I used it a number of times and it was always packed. Never understood why that was dropped. They keep talking about resurrecting it, but nothing seems to happen.

Anyway, apologies - I seem to have gone off course here.

It was always rammed to the gunnels during the early to mid 70s with hundreds of Town fans on their away day special tickets courtesy of Daz washing up powder. Fantastic, affordable, days out. Before our loonies ruined it by wrecking a couple of specials on the way back from games they were unbeatable days out.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Imagine if their forebears in the MS&LR* had taken the attitude that the businesses of Grimsby and Cleethorpes would benefit from the railway so they could bloody well pay for the thing! The railway company then had the vision to not only build the docks but also the prom at Cleethorpes because both would increase their traffic..

* Manchester, Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway.

That was part of what was called "Railway mania" at the time and railways were built without any economic assessment or appraisal of likely demand. Frequently competing and duplicating lines were built like from London to Cambridge (which still runs from Kings Cross and Liverpool Street) It was the result of rampant and unregulated capitalism as much as visionary thinking.

When Beeching came along it was all slashed and burned although there had been plenty of piecemeal closures before that. Horncastle and Woodhall Spa had lost their lines in the 1950s for example.

Quoted from Welwynmariner

That was part of what was called "Railway mania" at the time and railways were built without any economic assessment or appraisal of likely demand. Frequently competing and duplicating lines were built like from London to Cambridge (which still runs from Kings Cross and Liverpool Street) It was the result of rampant and unregulated capitalism as much as visionary thinking.

When Beeching came along it was all slashed and burned although there had been plenty of piecemeal closures before that. Horncastle and Woodhall Spa had lost their lines in the 1950s for example.

That's as may be (and I agree there was duplication and no cross-city lines in London) but the infrastructure is still in place in many parts of the country. Like Blundell Park. So the original investment has paid off many times over. If they'd taken the penny-pinching accountants approach there'd be nothing but marsh, fields and a few villages in NE Lincs today.

Beaching's axe actually killed off some of the larger lines as well as the branch lines, because he cut off some of the feeds into the 'ecosystem'. Without the branchlines the bigger lines suffered too. If you're gonna get the bus or drive because the line from Camberwick Green to Trumpton had closed, you may as well stay in it all the way to Chigley.

I heard about a line in the Lothian region that re-opened the other year because more people are commuting in to Edingburgh and the road traffic is bad.

Quoted from marinerdazza

I didn't know any of this. Really interesting. Sad to see Cleethorpes station as it is now. I remember it being rammed in summer. You could barely get a seat on the trans pennine DMUs, or the four coach trains to and from Newark North Gate in the late 70s/early 80s. And don't get me started on the 125 London train. I used it a number of times and it was always packed. Never understood why that was dropped. They keep talking about resurrecting it, but nothing seems to happen.

Anyway, apologies - I seem to have gone off course here.

There's a couple of books by a bloke called Alan Dowling (think he was chief librarian at Grimsby) on the development of Grimsby and Cleethorpes respectively. The attitude of the landowners in the different parts of the aera made a significant difference according to Dolwing. Not very complementary to the Freemen of the 1800s. Fascinating read if you're a bit of a history geek.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

That's as may be (and I agree there was duplication and no cross-city lines in London) but the infrastructure is still in place in many parts of the country. Like Blundell Park. So the original investment has paid off many times over. If they'd taken the penny-pinching accountants approach there'd be nothing but marsh, fields and a few villages in NE Lincs today.

Beaching's axe actually killed off some of the larger lines as well as the branch lines, because he cut off some of the feeds into the 'ecosystem'. Without the branchlines the bigger lines suffered too. If you're gonna get the bus or drive because the line from Camberwick Green to Trumpton had closed, you may as well stay in it all the way to Chigley.

I heard about a line in the Lothian region that re-opened the other year because more people are commuting in to Edingburgh and the road traffic is bad.

That's a bit of an air-brushing of history. Remember that the "mania" was about ordinary people putting their money into these projects in the way that people invest in buy to let housing these days.

Because of the lack of financial scrutiny (accountant's penny pinching) many railway companies never made money and soon went bust taking their investors money with them (remember these were your and my great great grandparents). Then they were bought up for a song by the big railway companies and integrated into their networks. At the time it was a big scandal and even in the 1870's there were calls for the nationalisation of the railway industry because of this out of control capitalism.

So I think it's a fallacy that the original investment paid off many times over because many if not most of the people who put money in lost it.

There are various examples of re-opened lines following the Beeching closures. One is the line from Coventry to Nuneaton through Bedworth that goes up by the Ricoh arena. When I lived in Bedworth in 1983/84 there was talk about re-opening a line and that happened in the late 1980's and was extended to Kenilworth and on to Leamington Spa. Another is the re-opening of the Marylebone line after Aylesbury and into Oxford through the new Oxford North station. It's also planned to re-open the Oxford to Cambridge cross country line which Beeching closed and that's happening in stages. Unfortunately housing estates have been built in some places and part of the old track is now used by the Mullard telescope.

Unfortunately I can't see the Grimsby to Boston and Peterborough line through Louth being re-opened.

Quoted from Welwynmariner

That's a bit of an air-brushing of history. Remember that the "mania" was about ordinary people putting their money into these projects in the way that people invest in buy to let housing these days.

Because of the lack of financial scrutiny (accountant's penny pinching) many railway companies never made money and soon went bust taking their investors money with them (remember these were your and my great great grandparents). Then they were bought up for a song by the big railway companies and integrated into their networks. At the time it was a big scandal and even in the 1870's there were calls for the nationalisation of the railway industry because of this out of control capitalism.

So I think it's a fallacy that the original investment paid off many times over because many if not most of the people who put money in lost it.

There are various examples of re-opened lines following the Beeching closures. One is the line from Coventry to Nuneaton through Bedworth that goes up by the Ricoh arena. When I lived in Bedworth in 1983/84 there was talk about re-opening a line and that happened in the late 1980's and was extended to Kenilworth and on to Leamington Spa. Another is the re-opening of the Marylebone line after Aylesbury and into Oxford through the new Oxford North station. It's also planned to re-open the Oxford to Cambridge cross country line which Beeching closed and that's happening in stages. Unfortunately housing estates have been built in some places and part of the old track is now used by the Mullard telescope.

Unfortunately I can't see the Grimsby to Boston and Peterborough line through Louth being re-opened.

Glad you’re concerned about what my ancestors probably didn’t spend their money on (knowing what I do about how poor they were).

But the fact is, without that recklessness Grimsby and Cleethorpes would most likely have remained villages, and we wouldn’t be arguing about rail infrastructure. And that infrastructure is still there in NELincs, so despite any changes in ownership it seems to have been a success as an investment. I’d say my great great grandparents and all their descendants did well out of it.

Quite possibly they were impoverished precisely because they did invest in railways?

But I agree that railways are a "good thing" and we're all better off for having them. It's just that it came about as a result of some frenzied entrepreneurial capitalism rather than some inspired vision of the future.

The Mucky Slow and Late (MS&L) was a well established railway business in the 1840s and built the docks and railway for a two way trade - fish in, coal out. In fact until the late 19th century the town ended more or less at what is now Humber Street because the area from Holme Hill onwards was largely Marsh. Hence we get East Marsh, West Marsh, Over The Marsh and so on. Grimsby Docks station did not really serve the docks much, its name is a description of where it was built. Trade to and from the docks was loaded directly on the docks. Grimsby Town station was built in 1848 when it was at the centre of the old town, the population grew around Central Market and on to Riby Square and Cleethorpe Road so there was a demand for a station there. The original Royal Hotel was also built then. I think Patricia Hodge’s family worked there.

A lot of the East Marsh was pretty much a slum even as it was built. No decent foundations, soaking wet land and Orwell Street, Strand Street and down Freeman Street was full of cheap spec building. But it was still better than the most of the Central Market area around Middle Court and Burgess Street.

A lot of this history was lost with the building of the flyover and Many younger Grimbarians will not remember that Riby Square was THE place everyone knew. It was full of fine buildings now lost and a thriving commercial trade, not always legitimate!  Dock Station was a busy place right into the 1950s.

The line was extended to Cleethorpes in 1863 but there was no actual station or prom until 1884, ten years after the Pier. The line was originally for local use but the MS&L saw that seaside resorts were the coming thing. A number of hotels sprang up along Grimsby Road mainly at the bottom of Isaacs Hill opposite what is now the Memorial Hall, and then along the sea front. The land along from Park Street was cheap and that brought about the infill of terraced housing and a low cost ground at Blundell Park.

Wow, kudos for the historical insight there 👌🏻

Some photos and stories in this bit of Bygones.

[url]https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/nostalgia/disgusting-scenes-at-rats-nest-490920[/url]