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KingstonMariner
July 11, 2019, 2:27pm
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Quoted from rancido



But the MSL&R did build Docks Station and they did it for huge financial reasons. Their main reasons was for the number of people in the area that would use a rail link on a daily basis. The access of the railway to Grimsby ( especially the docks ) was for the hugely lucrative freight business generated by the port. The fishing industry added to this and at it's height in excess of 20 fish trains alone left Grimsby every day of the working week. The later extension to Cleethorpes was built purely for the huge numbers of holiday makers from South Yorkshire that wanted to access the seaside. Now there is no freight at all that leaves Grimsby Docks by rail and I would hardly imagine the possible use of a station on 23 occasions a year would justify the costs incurred. The holiday maker travel to Cleethorpes has reduced greatly in the last 50 years. I remember up to 30 rail excursions coming into Cleethorpes on a Sunday in the summer during the early 1960's. To my knowledge there are none now. Even the MSL&R and its later format the GCR would never have considered such an outlay for such a small return in the case of upgrading Grimsby Docks station and New Clee.


Yes. My point entirely. It was a visionary thing to do. And risky. If they'd just taken the line that we're in the railway business and we''ll only build where there's an established market, they wouldn't have even built the line let alone the dock. When the railway was built, there weren't many people living there to use it! No railway, then no docks, no docks no mass fishing industry. No industry no people to use the railway. If they'd taken decisions purely on the basis of an existing market they wouldn't have bothered extending the line beyond say Donny.

Same with Cleethorpes and the promenade. The prom was built by the railway. They built up their own market by investing in non-railway assets.  It had visitors before the railway, but the railway allowed Cleethorpes to massively expand and the railway financed prom gave people more reason to come.

The Docks station might only be needed for 23 days when football matches are played, but when that whole area is regenerated there's lots of other scope for traffic. If the example of Docks Beers say is followed and other food and drink business open up ...GY and Cleethorpes could become more of a leisure destination. Go by rail.  Leave the car at home.


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Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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marinerdazza
July 11, 2019, 3:17pm
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Quoted from KingstonMariner


Yes. My point entirely. It was a visionary thing to do. And risky. If they'd just taken the line that we're in the railway business and we''ll only build where there's an established market, they wouldn't have even built the line let alone the dock. When the railway was built, there weren't many people living there to use it! No railway, then no docks, no docks no mass fishing industry. No industry no people to use the railway. If they'd taken decisions purely on the basis of an existing market they wouldn't have bothered extending the line beyond say Donny.

Same with Cleethorpes and the promenade. The prom was built by the railway. They built up their own market by investing in non-railway assets.  It had visitors before the railway, but the railway allowed Cleethorpes to massively expand and the railway financed prom gave people more reason to come.

The Docks station might only be needed for 23 days when football matches are played, but when that whole area is regenerated there's lots of other scope for traffic. If the example of Docks Beers say is followed and other food and drink business open up ...GY and Cleethorpes could become more of a leisure destination. Go by rail.  Leave the car at home.


I didn't know any of this. Really interesting. Sad to see Cleethorpes station as it is now. I remember it being rammed in summer. You could barely get a seat on the trans pennine DMUs, or the four coach trains to and from Newark North Gate in the late 70s/early 80s. And don't get me started on the 125 London train. I used it a number of times and it was always packed. Never understood why that was dropped. They keep talking about resurrecting it, but nothing seems to happen.

Anyway, apologies - I seem to have gone off course here.
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jock dock tower
July 11, 2019, 4:08pm
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It was always rammed to the gunnels during the early to mid 70s with hundreds of Town fans on their away day special tickets courtesy of Daz washing up powder. Fantastic, affordable, days out. Before our loonies ruined it by wrecking a couple of specials on the way back from games they were unbeatable days out.


No attempt at ethical or social seduction can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred of the Tory party. So far as I'm concerned they're lower than vermin. Aneurin Bevan.
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Welwynmariner
July 11, 2019, 4:32pm

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Quoted from KingstonMariner


Imagine if their forebears in the MS&LR* had taken the attitude that the businesses of Grimsby and Cleethorpes would benefit from the railway so they could bloody well pay for the thing! The railway company then had the vision to not only build the docks but also the prom at Cleethorpes because both would increase their traffic..

* Manchester, Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway.


That was part of what was called "Railway mania" at the time and railways were built without any economic assessment or appraisal of likely demand. Frequently competing and duplicating lines were built like from London to Cambridge (which still runs from Kings Cross and Liverpool Street) It was the result of rampant and unregulated capitalism as much as visionary thinking.

When Beeching came along it was all slashed and burned although there had been plenty of piecemeal closures before that. Horncastle and Woodhall Spa had lost their lines in the 1950s for example.
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KingstonMariner
July 11, 2019, 11:28pm
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Quoted from Welwynmariner


That was part of what was called "Railway mania" at the time and railways were built without any economic assessment or appraisal of likely demand. Frequently competing and duplicating lines were built like from London to Cambridge (which still runs from Kings Cross and Liverpool Street) It was the result of rampant and unregulated capitalism as much as visionary thinking.

When Beeching came along it was all slashed and burned although there had been plenty of piecemeal closures before that. Horncastle and Woodhall Spa had lost their lines in the 1950s for example.


That's as may be (and I agree there was duplication and no cross-city lines in London) but the infrastructure is still in place in many parts of the country. Like Blundell Park. So the original investment has paid off many times over. If they'd taken the penny-pinching accountants approach there'd be nothing but marsh, fields and a few villages in NE Lincs today.

Beaching's axe actually killed off some of the larger lines as well as the branch lines, because he cut off some of the feeds into the 'ecosystem'. Without the branchlines the bigger lines suffered too. If you're gonna get the bus or drive because the line from Camberwick Green to Trumpton had closed, you may as well stay in it all the way to Chigley.

I heard about a line in the Lothian region that re-opened the other year because more people are commuting in to Edingburgh and the road traffic is bad.


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KingstonMariner
July 11, 2019, 11:33pm
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Quoted from marinerdazza


I didn't know any of this. Really interesting. Sad to see Cleethorpes station as it is now. I remember it being rammed in summer. You could barely get a seat on the trans pennine DMUs, or the four coach trains to and from Newark North Gate in the late 70s/early 80s. And don't get me started on the 125 London train. I used it a number of times and it was always packed. Never understood why that was dropped. They keep talking about resurrecting it, but nothing seems to happen.

Anyway, apologies - I seem to have gone off course here.


There's a couple of books by a bloke called Alan Dowling (think he was chief librarian at Grimsby) on the development of Grimsby and Cleethorpes respectively. The attitude of the landowners in the different parts of the aera made a significant difference according to Dolwing. Not very complementary to the Freemen of the 1800s. Fascinating read if you're a bit of a history geek.


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Welwynmariner
July 12, 2019, 2:53pm

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Quoted from KingstonMariner


That's as may be (and I agree there was duplication and no cross-city lines in London) but the infrastructure is still in place in many parts of the country. Like Blundell Park. So the original investment has paid off many times over. If they'd taken the penny-pinching accountants approach there'd be nothing but marsh, fields and a few villages in NE Lincs today.

Beaching's axe actually killed off some of the larger lines as well as the branch lines, because he cut off some of the feeds into the 'ecosystem'. Without the branchlines the bigger lines suffered too. If you're gonna get the bus or drive because the line from Camberwick Green to Trumpton had closed, you may as well stay in it all the way to Chigley.

I heard about a line in the Lothian region that re-opened the other year because more people are commuting in to Edingburgh and the road traffic is bad.


That's a bit of an air-brushing of history. Remember that the "mania" was about ordinary people putting their money into these projects in the way that people invest in buy to let housing these days.

Because of the lack of financial scrutiny (accountant's penny pinching) many railway companies never made money and soon went bust taking their investors money with them (remember these were your and my great great grandparents). Then they were bought up for a song by the big railway companies and integrated into their networks. At the time it was a big scandal and even in the 1870's there were calls for the nationalisation of the railway industry because of this out of control capitalism.

So I think it's a fallacy that the original investment paid off many times over because many if not most of the people who put money in lost it.

There are various examples of re-opened lines following the Beeching closures. One is the line from Coventry to Nuneaton through Bedworth that goes up by the Ricoh arena. When I lived in Bedworth in 1983/84 there was talk about re-opening a line and that happened in the late 1980's and was extended to Kenilworth and on to Leamington Spa. Another is the re-opening of the Marylebone line after Aylesbury and into Oxford through the new Oxford North station. It's also planned to re-open the Oxford to Cambridge cross country line which Beeching closed and that's happening in stages. Unfortunately housing estates have been built in some places and part of the old track is now used by the Mullard telescope.

Unfortunately I can't see the Grimsby to Boston and Peterborough line through Louth being re-opened.
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KingstonMariner
July 12, 2019, 4:16pm
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Quoted from Welwynmariner


That's a bit of an air-brushing of history. Remember that the "mania" was about ordinary people putting their money into these projects in the way that people invest in buy to let housing these days.

Because of the lack of financial scrutiny (accountant's penny pinching) many railway companies never made money and soon went bust taking their investors money with them (remember these were your and my great great grandparents). Then they were bought up for a song by the big railway companies and integrated into their networks. At the time it was a big scandal and even in the 1870's there were calls for the nationalisation of the railway industry because of this out of control capitalism.

So I think it's a fallacy that the original investment paid off many times over because many if not most of the people who put money in lost it.

There are various examples of re-opened lines following the Beeching closures. One is the line from Coventry to Nuneaton through Bedworth that goes up by the Ricoh arena. When I lived in Bedworth in 1983/84 there was talk about re-opening a line and that happened in the late 1980's and was extended to Kenilworth and on to Leamington Spa. Another is the re-opening of the Marylebone line after Aylesbury and into Oxford through the new Oxford North station. It's also planned to re-open the Oxford to Cambridge cross country line which Beeching closed and that's happening in stages. Unfortunately housing estates have been built in some places and part of the old track is now used by the Mullard telescope.

Unfortunately I can't see the Grimsby to Boston and Peterborough line through Louth being re-opened.


Glad you’re concerned about what my ancestors probably didn’t spend their money on (knowing what I do about how poor they were).

But the fact is, without that recklessness Grimsby and Cleethorpes would most likely have remained villages, and we wouldn’t be arguing about rail infrastructure. And that infrastructure is still there in NELincs, so despite any changes in ownership it seems to have been a success as an investment. I’d say my great great grandparents and all their descendants did well out of it.


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Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
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Welwynmariner
July 12, 2019, 4:50pm

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Quite possibly they were impoverished precisely because they did invest in railways?

But I agree that railways are a "good thing" and we're all better off for having them. It's just that it came about as a result of some frenzied entrepreneurial capitalism rather than some inspired vision of the future.
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TheRonRaffertyFanClub
July 12, 2019, 5:39pm
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The Mucky Slow and Late (MS&L) was a well established railway business in the 1840s and built the docks and railway for a two way trade - fish in, coal out. In fact until the late 19th century the town ended more or less at what is now Humber Street because the area from Holme Hill onwards was largely Marsh. Hence we get East Marsh, West Marsh, Over The Marsh and so on. Grimsby Docks station did not really serve the docks much, its name is a description of where it was built. Trade to and from the docks was loaded directly on the docks. Grimsby Town station was built in 1848 when it was at the centre of the old town, the population grew around Central Market and on to Riby Square and Cleethorpe Road so there was a demand for a station there. The original Royal Hotel was also built then. I think Patricia Hodge’s family worked there.

A lot of the East Marsh was pretty much a slum even as it was built. No decent foundations, soaking wet land and Orwell Street, Strand Street and down Freeman Street was full of cheap spec building. But it was still better than the most of the Central Market area around Middle Court and Burgess Street.

A lot of this history was lost with the building of the flyover and Many younger Grimbarians will not remember that Riby Square was THE place everyone knew. It was full of fine buildings now lost and a thriving commercial trade, not always legitimate!  Dock Station was a busy place right into the 1950s.

The line was extended to Cleethorpes in 1863 but there was no actual station or prom until 1884, ten years after the Pier. The line was originally for local use but the MS&L saw that seaside resorts were the coming thing. A number of hotels sprang up along Grimsby Road mainly at the bottom of Isaacs Hill opposite what is now the Memorial Hall, and then along the sea front. The land along from Park Street was cheap and that brought about the infill of terraced housing and a low cost ground at Blundell Park.


"Ah but I was so much older then, I’m younger than that now.” Bob Dylan, My Back Pages
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