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golfer
November 28, 2019, 10:44pm Report to Moderator
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What's all this about ?
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Rik e B
November 28, 2019, 10:47pm Report to Moderator

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Whys this been moved here?

Haven't we had enough of this?

Grimsby is about to turn blue for the first time in 74 years I'm sure.
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moosey_club
November 29, 2019, 9:54am Report to Moderator
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hmmmm...well Cleethorpes has been Conservative for as long as i can remember...and i think Grimsby's Labour stronghold has been diminishing year on year, blame that on Labour themselves, while they considered it a "safe" seat they just let Austin Mitchell sit there year after year...whilst he was rebelling against his own party it seemed to me he ignored his own voters.
Certainly can recall him choosing to abstain rather than vote and actually represent the people on some big key issues.

Has Melanie Onn done any better for the Town, represented us any better ? Genuine question.

I think on the surface the choosing of Melanie Onn by Labour upset some people , it did seem as though Labour thought the seat was safe enough to insert a female to up their female MP quota rather than on her own merits , where better to do this than "safe" Grimsby ...as Austin was alleged to have said....something about an alcoholic paedo could retain the seat.  Again that just slaps the voters in the face.

Labour will only have themseves to blame if they let the town slip away from the grip they have held. Onn needs to be all over the town raising her profile, Farage has done his campaigning/stirring .....where is the defending champion ? Is she thinking she is in a comfy chair and doesnt really need to bother ?


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KingstonMariner
November 29, 2019, 1:09pm Report to Moderator
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Cleethorpes has a brief spell (maybe a decade) with a Labour MP (Shona McIsaac) under Blair.

I think it’s a bit unfair to compare Onn’s campaigning with Nigel Falange. Nige did what, one brief appearance at BP that got a lot of publicity because he is a national figure appearing in Brexit Heartland.

Also at the end of the day, it’s one seat. No sitting government with a safe majority is going to take much notice. Hull gets more attention because it’s got 3 seats (excluding the surrounding areas).

I don’t ever remember Grimsby getting a good deal under Heath, Thatcher, Major, Cameron, May. In fact the town was shafted by all of them (apart from May who didn’t get a chance to shaft it). The worst that Labour did to Grimsby when in power was ignore it.


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
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Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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Black_and_White_Bear
November 29, 2019, 2:29pm Report to Moderator

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Nobody will get a good deal if that commie loving, terrorist supporting tw@t Corbyn gets in.  In his interview the other night he refused 4 times to apologise to the Jews too, just kept repeating some old twaddle.  I despise that man, and hope he rots in hell, the sooner the better.  I will vote for the Raving Monster Looney party rather than him.


STABILIS
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grimsby pete
November 29, 2019, 3:13pm Report to Moderator

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If Labour wanted to make a  splash with Melanie Onn they would get loads of publicity if,

They hired Mcmenemy's  did a photo shoot with Melanie  wearing Towns shirt with " Grimsby Onn Board "

She will look a lot better in a shirt than Farage  

The publicity might even make the local press.


                           Over 33 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
                           65 Years following the Town
                            Ian Holloway's  Black and White Army.
                                                UTMM

 
                            
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golfer
November 29, 2019, 4:47pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from KingstonMariner
Cleethorpes has a brief spell (maybe a decade) with a Labour MP (Shona McIsaac) under Blair.



I don’t ever remember Grimsby getting a good deal under Heath, Thatcher, Major, Cameron, May. In fact the town was shafted by all of them (apart from May who didn’t get a chance to shaft it). .



Think you missed Blair and Brown off your list- I know it's a silly question but are you a remainer labour supporter by any chance-give us a clue    
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lew chaterleys lover
November 29, 2019, 5:18pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from golfer



Think you missed Blair and Brown off your list- I know it's a silly question but are you a remainer labour supporter by any chance-give us a clue    


It is nigh on impossible to have any conversation with any of them as they always, but always revert to Labour is great, the Tories are evil, worse than vermin and have not done anything for anybody, ever.

It is absolutely risible, by any sensible measure to put the Labour party on such a pedestal whilst denigrating the Tories.

Even todays Labour party is riddled with racism, will not respect nor would implement the result of a democratic national vote when they promised to respect the result, and cannot seem to understand why lots of leave voting seats in the north and midlands are in danger of going blue.

They no longer represent the normal working man and woman of this country, seemingly preferring the Islington social set wringing their hands at every percieved injustice on the planet and see no bounds to immigration which is making life difficult for some.

They have a hopeless leader, and an even worse front bench. The only time since the early 70's they had any electoral success was when Blair created "new" Labour and made them look more like the Conservative party.

Yes I am right wing in my views, but I can see mistakes on all sides, and never take anything any politician says on face value, and like all sides to be given a fair hearing; some of these Labour supporting posters are beyond the pale with their cult like devotion.
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KingstonMariner
November 30, 2019, 12:29am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from golfer



Think you missed Blair and Brown off your list- I know it's a silly question but are you a remainer labour supporter by any chance-give us a clue    


Yes it is a stupid question. But that’s normal for Brexiteers who still support the Tories despite living  in poor towns shafted by the Tories.

What’s even more stupid is you quoted me, deliberately cutting out my mention of the Labour years in power, then ask about it.

Or maybe you’re just parodying thick illegitimates?


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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KingstonMariner
November 30, 2019, 12:36am Report to Moderator
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It is nigh on impossible to have any conversation with any of them as they always, but always revert to Labour is great, the Tories are evil, worse than vermin and have not done anything for anybody, ever.

It is absolutely risible, by any sensible measure to put the Labour party on such a pedestal whilst denigrating the Tories.

Even todays Labour party is riddled with racism, will not respect nor would implement the result of a democratic national vote when they promised to respect the result, and cannot seem to understand why lots of leave voting seats in the north and midlands are in danger of going blue.

They no longer represent the normal working man and woman of this country, seemingly preferring the Islington social set wringing their hands at every percieved injustice on the planet and see no bounds to immigration which is making life difficult for some.

They have a hopeless leader, and an even worse front bench. The only time since the early 70's they had any electoral success was when Blair created "new" Labour and made them look more like the Conservative party.

Yes I am right wing in my views, but I can see mistakes on all sides, and never take anything any politician says on face value, and like all sides to be given a fair hearing; some of these Labour supporting posters are beyond the pale with their cult like devotion.


You say all that with absolutely no evidence of my views on Labour. You’re not just reading between the lines, you’re writing between them. A complete fantasy!

Really you’re a sad quixotic fornicator.


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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chaos33
November 30, 2019, 8:52pm Report to Moderator
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Nobody will get a good deal if that commie loving, terrorist supporting tw@t Corbyn gets in.  In his interview the other night he refused 4 times to apologise to the Jews too, just kept repeating some old twaddle.  I despise that man, and hope he rots in hell, the sooner the better.  I will vote for the Raving Monster Looney party rather than him.


Sit tight and enjoy the Etonian liars coming soon then.
As Paul Weller once said: “the public gets what the public wants”. Hope you don’t need public services any time soon. Or the NHS. Or safety from convicted terrorists. .


"You should do what you love while you can"
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Marinerz93
November 30, 2019, 9:10pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from chaos33


Sit tight and enjoy the Etonian liars coming soon then.
As Paul Weller once said: “the public gets what the public wants”. Hope you don’t need public services any time soon. Or the NHS. Or safety from convicted terrorists. .


Was it convicted terrorists who blew up London buses and tube and went on a stabbing spree and hit and run, was it convicted terrorists who run over the army lad and kill him in the street.

Labour cut funding the forces , and defence on a massive scale over every year they were in power, that effects the ability of special operations based in the UK and over seas, and the intelligence our services gather.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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chaos33
November 30, 2019, 9:26pm Report to Moderator
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Err...yeah it was a convicted terrorist who went on a stabbing spree yesterday. Have the tories reinstated that funding for the forces then? Do we have our forces personnel patrol the streets normally, just in case the (Tory) government have freed a terrorist on licence half way through his sentence?
I love it - ‘Johnson calls for an end to early release of terrorists’ say the media - yet another example of campaigning against his own party and hoping that people might not notice.
I’ll not make the obvious points about hoping that the NHS - in the worst state it’s ever been in thanks to ACTUAL MORAL AND FINANCIAL DECISIONS of this Tory government can cope with injuries to innocent citizens. By the way, the state of the NHS is a total national disgrace and completely the fault of the Tories, rather like the brexit mess, and these are indisputable facts. Astonishingly, the public seem to want them to carry on, so....
Toot toot - here come the tories on the brexit train, bringing the dividend to share. This country is about to hit very dark times. Unless of course you’ve got lots of money.


"You should do what you love while you can"
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barralad
November 30, 2019, 9:29pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from moosey_club
hmmmm...well Cleethorpes has been Conservative for as long as i can remember...and i think Grimsby's Labour stronghold has been diminishing year on year, blame that on Labour themselves, while they considered it a "safe" seat they just let Austin Mitchell sit there year after year...whilst he was rebelling against his own party it seemed to me he ignored his own voters.
Certainly can recall him choosing to abstain rather than vote and actually represent the people on some big key issues.

Has Melanie Onn done any better for the Town, represented us any better ? Genuine question.

I think on the surface the choosing of Melanie Onn by Labour upset some people , it did seem as though Labour thought the seat was safe enough to insert a female to up their female MP quota rather than on her own merits , where better to do this than "safe" Grimsby ...as Austin was alleged to have said....something about an alcoholic paedo could retain the seat.  Again that just slaps the voters in the face.

Labour will only have themseves to blame if they let the town slip away from the grip they have held. Onn needs to be all over the town raising her profile, Farage has done his campaigning/stirring .....where is the defending champion ? Is she thinking she is in a comfy chair and doesnt really need to bother ?


Well perhaps unsurprisingly you would expect me to offer up an alternative view. I'm actively involved in her campaign and have been for the other two elections she has contested.
I think there is some truth in the view about Labour when Mitchell was in his later years of being Grimsby's M.P. A lot of the local activists thought he should have gone before the 2010 election but he stayed and as a result Labour only got in by the skin of our teeth. Austin was a publicist for the town-of that there is no doubt but the jokes did wear a little thin. In truth the majority had been dropping from its high point in 1997.
It is true that Melanie Onn was elected from a short list of women only. I cannot say I was happy with the process but she showed in 2015 that a. she was markedly different to Austin and b. that she knew how to campaign to win what was in 2015 a three way marginal. I might be a bit biased   but she works bloody hard. People think that as an M.P. she is an extension of local government when the things that she can do are way different to the powers local authorities have. You ask what has she done for Grimsby? It's a fair question. Firstly, and this isn't an excuse, but for her entire parliamentary career she has been in opposition. She has however done a lot. She has spoken regularly in the House about police cuts and their effect on our area. She spoke as a shadow housing minister about the scandal of absentee landlords and bad landlords and has drawn attention to the number of empty houses in the town. Her work on the domestic abuse bill will help a lot of residents of this town. She has been a powerful advocate (along with Vickers to be entirely fair) for the wind industry and has lobbied for Grimsby to be considered the capital of renewable wind energy. I'm not saying that others wouldn't be able to do it but the place for talking to the people who have the money is Parliament. The fact that Grimsby was the first town to be considered for the towns fund suggests that she (and Vickers) are pretty good at it. She also lobbied for the town to get money from the coastal regeneration fund-successfully. She has supported the WASPI women from the launch of their campaign.
The other side to an M.Ps job is representing individual constituents. In 2018 her office won the award for best parliamentary office in the country. There is a very long list of people she has helped with major problems caused by various government agencies.
If it were needed 2015 and 2017 showed her that she cannot just sit back like some M.P.s can around the country (safe Tory and Labour seats). You ask about whether she is out and about "raising her profile". All I can tell you from experience is that she IS out-every day on multiple sessions. The trouble for the electorate is that the short length of a campaign and the size of a constituency mean that it just isn't possible to get to see everyone-the dark nights don't help and Labour do not canvass on winter evenings.
Not by you I hasten to say but the biggest misinformation being spread is about her attitude to Brexit. She doesn't deny that she campaigned and voted to Remain. To my mind it is impossible for anyone who campaigned for either side before the Referendum to be criticised. Since the result she has set about trying to establish how best to get Brexit "done" for the residents of this town. From the week after the result she was engaged with employers to understand what they wanted from Brexit. She voted to trigger Article 50 to get the process underway. The 2017 election saw her re-elected on a platform of supporting a Leave agreement that didn't make her constituents worse off. Since then she has:- resigned from her shadow ministerial job so that she could vote AGAINST the motion to hold a second referendum; she conducted her own widely available poll of constituents to check that a couple of years down the line that the feeling of the town was still for Brexit and of course latterly was one of the 19 Labour M.P.s who voted for Boris's deal-a decision which has seen her subjected to some pretty disgusting abuse.
Everything I've said is factual and can be checked.
Opinion wise obviously I'll be voting for her because I believe that she has the best interests of her home town at heart and that I've seen nothing from her rivals this time to make me think that they will do a better job of looking after the parliamentary business interests of this town.


I have an inferiority complex-It's not a very good one though.
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barralad
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Quoted from Marinerz93


Was it convicted terrorists who blew up London buses and tube and went on a stabbing spree and hit and run, was it convicted terrorists who run over the army lad and kill him in the street.

Labour cut funding the forces , and defence on a massive scale over every year they were in power, that effects the ability of special operations based in the UK and over seas, and the intelligence our services gather.


Mate I haven't got the figures to hand for defence spending but I'm pretty sure that if Labour did cut the defence budget that the current government have inflicted far deeper cuts and continue to do so. I read that we have an aircraft carrier that, because of the current incumbent government's bungling doesn't have any aircraft for its decks. Now I have NO military background but even you must be wondering whether this is actually a good idea. My own view is that the events of the illegal war Blair waged in Afghanistan/Iraq polarised opposition and maybe should have been seen as a possible consequence.



I have an inferiority complex-It's not a very good one though.
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Chrisblor
November 30, 2019, 11:21pm Report to Moderator

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You Johnson lovers seen this website? (created by Conservative leaning journalist Peter Oborne before you start whining about it being some left wing stitch up) - https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

You're being taken for a ride by a self interested posh boy who wouldn't give the tiniest excrement about you. Don't fall for it.


gary jones
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mariner91
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It is nigh on impossible to have any conversation with any of them as they always, but always revert to Labour is great, the Tories are evil, worse than vermin and have not done anything for anybody, ever.

It is absolutely risible, by any sensible measure to put the Labour party on such a pedestal whilst denigrating the Tories.

Even todays Labour party is riddled with racism, will not respect nor would implement the result of a democratic national vote when they promised to respect the result, and cannot seem to understand why lots of leave voting seats in the north and midlands are in danger of going blue.

They no longer represent the normal working man and woman of this country, seemingly preferring the Islington social set wringing their hands at every percieved injustice on the planet and see no bounds to immigration which is making life difficult for some.

They have a hopeless leader, and an even worse front bench. The only time since the early 70's they had any electoral success was when Blair created "new" Labour and made them look more like the Conservative party.

Yes I am right wing in my views, but I can see mistakes on all sides, and never take anything any politician says on face value, and like all sides to be given a fair hearing; some of these Labour supporting posters are beyond the pale with their cult like devotion.


As you are so abhorred by anti-semitism, and of course the Tories are too, would you care to comment on the statue they unveiled this week of a Nazi sympathiser who once said the Nazis were the ‘solution’ to the ‘worldwide problem with Judaism’?


Grimsby till I die.
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lew chaterleys lover
December 1, 2019, 10:59am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from mariner91


As you are so abhorred by anti-semitism, and of course the Tories are too, would you care to comment on the statue they unveiled this week of a Nazi sympathiser who once said the Nazis were the ‘solution’ to the ‘worldwide problem with Judaism’?


Nancy Astor? Good God that was in the 1930's. I think the statue commemorated Astor becoming our first woman MP.
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lew chaterleys lover
December 1, 2019, 10:59am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from KingstonMariner


You say all that with absolutely no evidence of my views on Labour. You’re not just reading between the lines, you’re writing between them. A complete fantasy!

Really you’re a sad quixotic fornicator.


Language Timothy!
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mariner91
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Oh so anti-semitism is fine if it was a while back then? And it’s not a big issue if you achieved something else in your life whilst being a horrible racist? Hypocrite.


Grimsby till I die.
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lew chaterleys lover
December 1, 2019, 12:01pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from mariner91
Oh so anti-semitism is fine if it was a while back then? And it’s not a big issue if you achieved something else in your life whilst being a horrible racist? Hypocrite.


You asked me to comment on it which I did.

I merely pointed out the facts that it was a very long time ago,when we are discussing the current racism in the Labour party, and the statue was unveiled because she was our first female MP.

I made no inference whatsoever of the interpretation you have put on it.

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lew chaterleys lover
December 1, 2019, 12:07pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Chrisblor
You Johnson lovers seen this website? (created by Conservative leaning journalist Peter Oborne before you start whining about it being some left wing stitch up) - https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

You're being taken for a ride by a self interested posh boy who wouldn't give the tiniest excrement about you. Don't fall for it.


Its a good job for you we can't trawl through endless hours of Corbyn footage through the years.Corbyn went to prep school, and was brought up in Yew Tree manor house, and is sometimes called the poshest man in politics. A real man of the people.
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mariner91
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You asked me to comment on it which I did.

I merely pointed out the facts that it was a very long time ago,when we are discussing the current racism in the Labour party, and the statue was unveiled because she was our first female MP.

I made no inference whatsoever of the interpretation you have put on it.



And, of course, had it been Jeremy Corbyn unveiling the statue of someone who declared the nazis were the ‘solution’ to the ‘worldwide problem with Judaism’ you wouldn’t have passed comment on it or used it as a stick to beat him with.

Happy to use supposed racism in a party or from an individual as an issue when it suits your narrative and only then. Conveniently forgetting the rampant Islamophobia in the Conservative party, the Windrush scandal, the ‘hostile environment’, their support for Viktor Orbán who is an actual anti-Semite and numerous deplorable comments by Johnson himself. Plus many others. Either racism is a big issue for you in which case you’ll speak out against the perpetrators whichever side of the political spectrum they sit on. Or it isn’t and it’s lazy, unfounded rhetoric you use because you’re too stupid and lazy to find reasons to denigrate Labour other than what the populist, right wing press tell you. You’re beyond contempt.


Grimsby till I die.
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lew chaterleys lover
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Quoted from mariner91


And, of course, had it been Jeremy Corbyn unveiling the statue of someone who declared the nazis were the ‘solution’ to the ‘worldwide problem with Judaism’ you wouldn’t have passed comment on it or used it as a stick to beat him with.

Happy to use supposed racism in a party or from an individual as an issue when it suits your narrative and only then. Conveniently forgetting the rampant Islamophobia in the Conservative party, the Windrush scandal, the ‘hostile environment’, their support for Viktor Orbán who is an actual anti-Semite and numerous deplorable comments by Johnson himself. Plus many others. Either racism is a big issue for you in which case you’ll speak out against the perpetrators whichever side of the political spectrum they sit on. Or it isn’t and it’s lazy, unfounded rhetoric you use because you’re too stupid and lazy to find reasons to denigrate Labour other than what the populist, right wing press tell you. You’re beyond contempt.


I am quite happy to condemn racism from whatever quarter. What on earth gave you the idea I wouldn't?
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barralad
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It is nigh on impossible to have any conversation with any of them as they always, but always revert to Labour is great, the Tories are evil, worse than vermin and have not done anything for anybody, ever.

It is absolutely risible, by any sensible measure to put the Labour party on such a pedestal whilst denigrating the Tories.

Even todays Labour party is riddled with racism, will not respect nor would implement the result of a democratic national vote when they promised to respect the result, and cannot seem to understand why lots of leave voting seats in the north and midlands are in danger of going blue.

They no longer represent the normal working man and woman of this country, seemingly preferring the Islington social set wringing their hands at every percieved injustice on the planet and see no bounds to immigration which is making life difficult for some.

They have a hopeless leader, and an even worse front bench. The only time since the early 70's they had any electoral success was when Blair created "new" Labour and made them look more like the Conservative party.

Yes I am right wing in my views, but I can see mistakes on all sides, and never take anything any politician says on face value, and like all sides to be given a fair hearing; some of these Labour supporting posters are beyond the pale with their cult like devotion.


This stance on Brexit interests me greatly.

The 2017 G.E. was notable for BOTH main parties saying they would uphold the result of the Referendum. The Labour manifesto talked about about ensuring that any deal did not compromise working conditions and wouldn't make people worse off. As a non-Tory voter I'm not privy (and cannot be bothered to look) at what THEY said they would do although it surely had to say that they would legislate to leave the E.U. May had put all of her eggs in the dubious basket of trying to get a comfortable majority in the 2017 election. She knew she needed it because she couldn't control the hard right of her party for whom anything other than a clean break wasn't going to be enough.  What she didn't reckon with was her innate inability to campaign to achieve that aim. It is well recorded that at the start of the 2017 campaign the Tories had a 20% lead...what could possibly go wrong? It took until late 2018 for the Tories to get their acts together and produce "something" that could at least be debated. The deal negotiated by May was put to parliament and was soundly rejected. Since that very moment Labour have been accused of stopping Brexit. Even in 2018 it wouldn't have been possible for that deal to fail had May convinced her own party to back the deal. Simple mathematics suggests that having paid the DUP vast sums of money for their support their Brexit votes plus those of the party in government would have been enough to get her deal over the line. I actually had someone say to me that Labour should have backed May's deal-a deal that over 100 of her own M.P.s elected in 2017 on the platform of leaving the E.U. with a deal-voted against. It really does beg the question that why should Labour support a deal that many on the Government benches were against. I actually "get" that people are p1ssed off with Labour's stance but those same people find no criticism of the very Tories who had far more control over the outcome of the debate. Shows how utterly broken the country's political system is.


I have an inferiority complex-It's not a very good one though.
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chaos33
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It’s a great post Ian and absolutely correct.


"You should do what you love while you can"
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lew chaterleys lover
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Quoted from barralad


This stance on Brexit interests me greatly.

The 2017 G.E. was notable for BOTH main parties saying they would uphold the result of the Referendum. The Labour manifesto talked about about ensuring that any deal did not compromise working conditions and wouldn't make people worse off. As a non-Tory voter I'm not privy (and cannot be bothered to look) at what THEY said they would do although it surely had to say that they would legislate to leave the E.U. May had put all of her eggs in the dubious basket of trying to get a comfortable majority in the 2017 election. She knew she needed it because she couldn't control the hard right of her party for whom anything other than a clean break wasn't going to be enough.  What she didn't reckon with was her innate inability to campaign to achieve that aim. It is well recorded that at the start of the 2017 campaign the Tories had a 20% lead...what could possibly go wrong? It took until late 2018 for the Tories to get their acts together and produce "something" that could at least be debated. The deal negotiated by May was put to parliament and was soundly rejected. Since that very moment Labour have been accused of stopping Brexit. Even in 2018 it wouldn't have been possible for that deal to fail had May convinced her own party to back the deal. Simple mathematics suggests that having paid the DUP vast sums of money for their support their Brexit votes plus those of the party in government would have been enough to get her deal over the line. I actually had someone say to me that Labour should have backed May's deal-a deal that over 100 of her own M.P.s elected in 2017 on the platform of leaving the E.U. with a deal-voted against. It really does beg the question that why should Labour support a deal that many on the Government benches were against. I actually "get" that people are p1ssed off with Labour's stance but those same people find no criticism of the very Tories who had far more control over the outcome of the debate. Shows how utterly broken the country's political system is.


Thank you for your reply, which was a pleasant change from the usual barage of insults hurtling the way of anybody with more of a right wing outlook.

Regarding your substantive point, I am disappointed that more MP's of all parties did not honour their manifesto pledges of leaving the EU. It is certainly true that the Conservative party had a lot of MP's that campaigned for remain, voted for remain and opposed leaving the EU whilst in Parliament, contrary to the manifesto pledge and the referendum result.

On the other side of the coin, a lot of Conservative leave MP's did not vote for Mays deal because it was BRINO

Where we differ more is that the labour party has never been (despite their manfesto pledge) keen to leave. Their version of leaving is not really leaving at all, and if they get their way on a second referendum the choice would be remain versus just about remain.

The Conservative party have made a mess of everything Brexit related, once they put Mrs May in charge, no one can dispute that.

However the people do now have a choice at this election. Vote for a Conservative majority which will ensure we leave on the 31st January and then get a trading arrangement agreed, or vote Labour which will give us a second referendum with a choice of remain and er, remain.
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Chrisblor
December 2, 2019, 10:11pm Report to Moderator

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Its a good job for you we can't trawl through endless hours of Corbyn footage through the years.Corbyn went to prep school, and was brought up in Yew Tree manor house, and is sometimes called the poshest man in politics. A real man of the people.


What would your thoughts be if a prime ministerial candidate in this election had suggested they'd been censored by the New York Times because it was 'a Jewish owned paper' and later went on to claim we should 'Give Iran the bomb', just out of interest?


gary jones
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lew chaterleys lover
December 2, 2019, 10:47pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Chrisblor


What would your thoughts be if a prime ministerial candidate in this election had suggested they'd been censored by the New York Times because it was 'a Jewish owned paper' and later went on to claim we should 'Give Iran the bomb', just out of interest?


Oh look, a squirrel.  
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grimsby pete
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What Labour say they will do in government and what they actually do are two different things.

If they kept all the promises they would stay in government would they not ?I

Corbyn coming out with more freebies every day a third off rail fares and free transport for under 16.

If I believed him I would vote for him but like thousands of others I cant.


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Chrisblor
December 3, 2019, 12:21am Report to Moderator

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Oh look, a squirrel.  


Oh look, a massive hypocrite who is only bothered about anti-semitism and alleged terrorist sympathies when it suits.


gary jones
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Chrisblor
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Quoted from grimsby pete
What Labour say they will do in government and what they actually do are two different things.

If they kept all the promises they would stay in government would they not ?I

Corbyn coming out with more freebies every day a third off rail fares and free transport for under 16.

If I believed him I would vote for him but like thousands of others I cant.


Labour aren't in government and haven't been for nearly a decade. But yeah cool, vote for the party led by a serial liar which is responsible for this appalling state of affairs then:

Tweet 1200927491134820353 will appear here...


By the way, those "freebies" are not free at all and actually paid for by our taxes. They are entirely affordable and what the people of this country deserve (instead of more tax breaks for businesses paying poverty wages topped up by working tax credits).


gary jones
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Maringer
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It's a strange viewpoint, Pete.

You don't believe Labour can carry out the policies they are announcing, even though various posted have pointed out that most of them are in effect in many other Western democracies.

On the other hand, we know that the Tories won't carry out many of the policies they are announcing because either 1) they aren't possible or 2) they are in their manifesto. Once in power the Tories have shown that they pretty much ignore any policy which doesn't help their wealthy backers and they also seem to inevitably magic up one or two other damaging policies which weren't in the manifesto in the first place!
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Roast Em Bobby
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I find it odd that people have been brainwashed by the right-wing press that Labour's spending plans of £80 billion a year are outlandish - especially given how obvious it is to everyone that public services are at breaking point. As I've said before on here, these figures are lower than France, Scandinavian countries and a smidgen above Germany. Funny how the Torys managed to find £375 billion for the banks through quantitative easing without being branded irresponsible..

I was listening to an IFS expert on NHS spending the other day and he said that the the NHS requires a 3.4% increase year on year just to maintain the status quo. The Tory's have pledged 3.1%, Libs 3.8% and Labour 4.1%. So the NHS will go further down hill under the Conservatives, which will be a shame for the elder generation voting blue to "get brexit done". Which of course is itself a complete lie - as nobody of sane mind believes a trade deal can be done in 1 year.


The most fundamental fact is that there is a trade-off between the ability to determine our own rules and access to foreign markets. This fact of life isn’t applicable just to the EU but to any advanced free trade agreement. If you take a purist position on sovereignty, we won’t get advanced trade deals, we will trade less and we will be poorer.
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Chrisblor
December 3, 2019, 1:06pm Report to Moderator

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Hilariously we'd end up borrowing more under the Tories spending plans than under Labour if we end up crashing out the EU with no deal at the end of 2020 (which is incredibly likely considering 11 months isn't anywhere near long enough to negotiate a comprehensive trade deal with them):



gary jones
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LH
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The ‘Labour are lying about what they’d do when they get in power - I trust Boris Johnson to be honest and deliver’ school of thought is hilarious, depressing and terrifying all at once.
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Roast Em Bobby
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Quoted from LH
The ‘Labour are lying about what they’d do when they get in power - I trust Boris Johnson to be honest and deliver’ school of thought is hilarious, depressing and terrifying all at once.


It really is insane isn’t it. I really can’t work out how so many people seem to think this when there is so much evidence to the contrary. Whatever is thrown at Corbyn then. Nine times out of ten Boris has done a hundred times worse, and it’s all on public record.



The most fundamental fact is that there is a trade-off between the ability to determine our own rules and access to foreign markets. This fact of life isn’t applicable just to the EU but to any advanced free trade agreement. If you take a purist position on sovereignty, we won’t get advanced trade deals, we will trade less and we will be poorer.
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Chrisblor
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Not sure why anyone would be remotely scared about the prospect of someone like this as Prime Minister:

Tweet 1201845937292922882 will appear here...



gary jones
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grimsby pete
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If Labour are so good for so many why have they not been in power for longer than they have ?

Also you can not be brainwashed by the tory press if you don't read it.


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Roast Em Bobby
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What would you say are your main sources for keeping up with current affairs?


The most fundamental fact is that there is a trade-off between the ability to determine our own rules and access to foreign markets. This fact of life isn’t applicable just to the EU but to any advanced free trade agreement. If you take a purist position on sovereignty, we won’t get advanced trade deals, we will trade less and we will be poorer.
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Roast Em Bobby
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What would you say are your main sources for keeping up with current affairs?


The most fundamental fact is that there is a trade-off between the ability to determine our own rules and access to foreign markets. This fact of life isn’t applicable just to the EU but to any advanced free trade agreement. If you take a purist position on sovereignty, we won’t get advanced trade deals, we will trade less and we will be poorer.
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lew chaterleys lover
December 3, 2019, 7:59pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Chrisblor


Oh look, a massive hypocrite who is only bothered about anti-semitism and alleged terrorist sympathies when it suits.


It was a squirrel though, wasn't it?

Did you see that Channel 4 piece about "Labour" voters in the north of England? The one where they interviewed them asking their voting intentions after years of voting Labour? It was brutal. All of them refused to vote for Corbyn, because they are ashamed of him. They were voting for Boris instead. None of your graphs, charts or unqualified support is going to convince them.

Not only did he not support their democratic decision to vote leave, he is seen as a weak and untrustworthy man, who promises the earth but has no chance of delivering it.

These are lifelong Labour voters remember.
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lew chaterleys lover
December 3, 2019, 8:09pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Chrisblor
Not sure why anyone would be remotely scared about the prospect of someone like this as Prime Minister:

Tweet 1201845937292922882 will appear here...



Yes, its a mystery, no doubt. Perhaps they look at his past actions and don't believe him.
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mariner91
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It was a squirrel though, wasn't it?

Did you see that Channel 4 piece about "Labour" voters in the north of England? The one where they interviewed them asking their voting intentions after years of voting Labour? It was brutal. All of them refused to vote for Corbyn, because they are ashamed of him. They were voting for Boris instead. None of your graphs, charts or unqualified support is going to convince them.

Not only did he not support their democratic decision to vote leave, he is seen as a weak and untrustworthy man, who promises the earth but has no chance of delivering it.

These are lifelong Labour voters remember.


Which shows you the power of the right wing media. Johnson can't even bring himself to be interviewed by Andrew Neil because he's so weak. He has lied on record about just about everything, he's literally lost jobs because he lies. But keep lapping it up, keep licking those boots clean.


Grimsby till I die.
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mariner91
December 3, 2019, 8:15pm Report to Moderator
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Yes, its a mystery, no doubt. Perhaps they look at his past actions and don't believe him.


You're a quite impressive specimen in many respects. On one hand, you harp on about people's past records and their "racism" without ever actually offering any evidence of it. Yet on the other hand you keep supporting Boris Johnson. A man who has lied on record, been racist on record, been homophobic on record and very likely has been bought and influenced by Russian money. If you want to support Johnson because you support his policies then that's your prerogative. But spare us the bullshit that it's because Corbyn is such a terrible human being. You're a hypocrite.


Grimsby till I die.
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lew chaterleys lover
December 3, 2019, 8:30pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from mariner91


You're a quite impressive specimen in many respects. On one hand, you harp on about people's past records and their "racism" without ever actually offering any evidence of it. Yet on the other hand you keep supporting Boris Johnson. A man who has lied on record, been racist on record, been homophobic on record and very likely has been bought and influenced by Russian money. If you want to support Johnson because you support his policies then that's your prerogative. But spare us the bullshit that it's because Corbyn is such a terrible human being. You're a hypocrite.


Thank you for your kind words.

Perhaps the one fly in your ointment is that I will be amongst the majority of voters in the forthcoming election, whilst you will be in the minority.

I have enjoyed interrupting your left-wing love fest on here - it seems to have come as a shock to you all  that you are in fact in the minority of the voting public.

Being a democrat, as well as an evil Tory/Brexit supporitng hypocrite    means I will respect what the voters decide.
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Roast Em Bobby
December 3, 2019, 8:50pm Report to Moderator
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I think the left wingers among us are all fully aware the idiots are winning, and that we are wasting our breath trying to convince anyone to change their mind. It's at the stage now that Boris could literally say he's introducing a policy to make everyone work 7 days a week and the public would turn a blind eye in order to "get brexit done". I've still yet to hear one single indisputable benefit that brexit is going to bring people, but hey ho.


The most fundamental fact is that there is a trade-off between the ability to determine our own rules and access to foreign markets. This fact of life isn’t applicable just to the EU but to any advanced free trade agreement. If you take a purist position on sovereignty, we won’t get advanced trade deals, we will trade less and we will be poorer.
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mariner91
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Thank you for your kind words.

Perhaps the one fly in your ointment is that I will be amongst the majority of voters in the forthcoming election, whilst you will be in the minority.

I have enjoyed interrupting your left-wing love fest on here - it seems to have come as a shock to you all  that you are in fact in the minority of the voting public.

Being a democrat, as well as an evil Tory/Brexit supporitng hypocrite    means I will respect what the voters decide.


You will more than likely be in the majority. I hope that comforts you should you need any medical care later in life and find you can't get it.


Grimsby till I die.
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LH
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‘I’m voting this way because everyone else is.’ That seems logical and fool proof.
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lew chaterleys lover
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Quoted from mariner91


You will more than likely be in the majority. I hope that comforts you should you need any medical care later in life and find you can't get it.


I think this is one of the reasons you will be in the minority, and have been for years. These scare stories are not working; I have needed the NHS all through my 65 years, most of which have been under Conservative governments. No sign yet of it being sold off, no sign yet of it not being free at the point of use, even though they (the Tories) have had decades to do something evil with it that you lot keep harping on about.

Perhaps they would prefer it to radically altered, but then real politics kicks in and they know they would be out of power for a very long time if they dared try it.

  
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grimsby pete
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Quoted from Roast Em Bobby
What would you say are your main sources for keeping up with current affairs?


I listen to the politicians themselves both Cons and Labour plus the minor parties,

BUT

I suppose you are going to say all the tv channels are tory .


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Chrisblor
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I think this is one of the reasons you will be in the minority, and have been for years. These scare stories are not working; I have needed the NHS all through my 65 years, most of which have been under Conservative governments. No sign yet of it being sold off, no sign yet of it not being free at the point of use, even though they (the Tories) have had decades to do something evil with it that you lot keep harping on about.

Perhaps they would prefer it to radically altered, but then real politics kicks in and they know they would be out of power for a very long time if they dared try it.

  


I'd rather I didn't have to pay for it after you've kicked the bucket.

And yes the media is dominated by conservatives? Seems pretty obvious that.



gary jones
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Roast Em Bobby
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Not at all. Genuinely interested to understand how you form your views - that’s all.


The most fundamental fact is that there is a trade-off between the ability to determine our own rules and access to foreign markets. This fact of life isn’t applicable just to the EU but to any advanced free trade agreement. If you take a purist position on sovereignty, we won’t get advanced trade deals, we will trade less and we will be poorer.
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Roast Em Bobby
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I think this is one of the reasons you will be in the minority, and have been for years. These scare stories are not working; I have needed the NHS all through my 65 years, most of which have been under Conservative governments. No sign yet of it being sold off, no sign yet of it not being free at the point of use, even though they (the Tories) have had decades to do something evil with it that you lot keep harping on about.

Perhaps they would prefer it to radically altered, but then real politics kicks in and they know they would be out of power for a very long time if they dared try it.

  


There are plenty of signs of it being sold off. FFS do your homework before spouting such rubbish.
https://fullfact.org/health/NHS-privatisation/


The most fundamental fact is that there is a trade-off between the ability to determine our own rules and access to foreign markets. This fact of life isn’t applicable just to the EU but to any advanced free trade agreement. If you take a purist position on sovereignty, we won’t get advanced trade deals, we will trade less and we will be poorer.
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Bawmariner
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I think this is one of the reasons you will be in the minority, and have been for years. These scare stories are not working; I have needed the NHS all through my 65 years, most of which have been under Conservative governments. No sign yet of it being sold off, no sign yet of it not being free at the point of use, even though they (the Tories) have had decades to do something evil with it that you lot keep harping on about.

Perhaps they would prefer it to radically altered, but then real politics kicks in and they know they would be out of power for a very long time if they dared try it.

  


Can I correct you on the point that left wing voters were in the minority in the last election. They were actually in the majority with the combined total of labour, the libs, SNP, Plaid and Greens being around 52%. Unfortunately, our stupid electoral system interprets this as an outright win for pretty much only right wing party in Great Britain.

And the NHS is in a mess already. A 4 week wait for an appointment in Manchester is the norm. I generally just try to make do and avoid going which, considering I have ongoing health issues, is hardly ideal.
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lew chaterleys lover
December 4, 2019, 10:57am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Bawmariner


Can I correct you on the point that left wing voters were in the minority in the last election. They were actually in the majority with the combined total of labour, the libs, SNP, Plaid and Greens being around 52%. Unfortunately, our stupid electoral system interprets this as an outright win for pretty much only right wing party in Great Britain.

And the NHS is in a mess already. A 4 week wait for an appointment in Manchester is the norm. I generally just try to make do and avoid going which, considering I have ongoing health issues, is hardly ideal.


Well my post centred on the two main parties who are ever likely to form a government, but I accept your point.

Regarding the waiting times - is an ever growing population, with a lot more older people needing a lot more care and medical provision having an impact in your area?  
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lew chaterleys lover
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Quoted from Roast Em Bobby


There are plenty of signs of it being sold off. FFS do your homework before spouting such rubbish.
https://fullfact.org/health/NHS-privatisation/


I have just given you 65 years worth of homework, but you don't accept it which is fair enough. The scare stories about the NHS being "sold off" have been going on for years.
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lew chaterleys lover
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I'd rather I didn't have to pay for it after you've kicked the bucket.

And yes the media is dominated by conservatives? Seems pretty obvious that.



You have such a lovely way with words...

As a matter of interest, do you think the BBC is right wing?
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LH
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You have such a lovely way with words...

As a matter of interest, do you think the BBC is right wing?


The BBC is well balanced to both sides. The comedy programmes are more than half the time dominated by left wing comics but the news and current affairs programmes are outrageously biased to the right and particularly favour the Tories.
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Chrisblor
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You have such a lovely way with words...

As a matter of interest, do you think the BBC is right wing?


I'm more interested in ensuring vulnerable and sick people avoid suffering under another 5 years of tory government than decorum m8.

On the BBC, with regards to its current affairs coverage, yes clearly. Peter Oborne agrees with me:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/03/election-coverage-bbc-tories


gary jones
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lew chaterleys lover
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Quoted from Chrisblor


I'm more interested in ensuring vulnerable and sick people avoid suffering under another 5 years of tory government than decorum m8.

On the BBC, with regards to its current affairs coverage, yes clearly. Peter Oborne agrees with me:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/03/election-coverage-bbc-tories


Do you genuinely think the champagne socialist Labour party, with some on its hypocritical front bench sending their kids to private school whilst not wishing others to have the privilege, is a good antidote to the Conservative party?

The labour party which is about as far removed as it is possible to get from the average working man, with its obsession with every lost cause? A party which is controlled by Momentum via Seamus Milne and has a wish list which it will never be able to implement, and is led by a man who has spent a lifetime backing every anti British campaign going, and was only nominated for the leadership by Margaret Beckett for a bit of diversity who immediately regretted her decision?

The party whose leader who is despised by large sections of his own MP's, has alienated huge swathes of it's once core vote with its obsession with "isms" and refusal to accept the result of the referendum in any meaningful sense - you think Labour is the answer?  *

I know you do, and respect where it is due. Perhaps you might try, just a weeny bit, to understand why I don't.

As regards Peter Oborne, then his comments are drowned out by any number of columnists and voters who think otherwise.

*Yes, I have got all this info from a biased right wing media and yes I am lying/hypocritical/stupid/pathetic/a specimen/tory boot licker/about to kick the bucket (delete as appropriate or leave them all in)  

I will call it a day now on this thread as it is pointless continuing to go round in circles, and as I have said many times I will leave it to the voters good sense to decide the country's future.

Good luck.
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Chrisblor
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Tin foil hat dribble all that.


gary jones
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Maringer
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Regarding the NHS, I've made a few posts about how the Tories have quite consciously underfunded it and massively so, since 2010. Please do take the time to read them.

Also, check the following link for facts about the current status of NHS:

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/12/03/the-nhs-some-facts/

Given this indisputable information, please let us know quite why you are quite so happy with the Tory stewardship of the service. If you're 65, I'm afraid you'll most likely be needing to use it a lot more in future years so I find your lack of interest in what has (not) been done quite remarkable.
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The NHS really isn't safe under the Tories. Look what will happen locally:



Source / Methodology here: https://nhscuts.org.uk/about


gary jones
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It’s only Labour that are ‘riddled’ with anti-semitism and it isn’t a problem for the party that unveiled a statue celebrating a Nazi sympathiser; https://amp.theguardian.com/po.....tter_impression=true


Grimsby till I die.
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I'll attempt to avoid anything too partisan here (and probably fail).  I've taken a very active interest in politics over the years, and I can't remember a time when there has been such a dearth of decent politicians on all sides.  I can't see a single party that looks to have sufficient competence to govern the country.

There are a few gems lurking in there but for every Starmer there at least 3 Raabs or McDonnells.  Even the SNP have proved to be pretty useless with the NHS in Scotland.  I fear we'll have 5 more years of the Tories, Brexit, more cuts and a tanking economy.  That said, I think they'll be a bit of a dead cat bounce when we actually leave as there is a tiny modicum of certainty.  

So what's the solution?  God knows, but I'd like to see actual experts more involved in the decision making process (and not Richard Murphy, sorry Maringer much as I enjoy your posts generally).  I also think we need serious electoral reform, but again what that looks like is anybody's guess.   It certainly doesn't look like AV in my view but would PR work?  I've never been a fan but it might be dare I say it more democratic.  Plus we might end up in a Belgian situation where they had no Government for 2 years and everything just worked.      
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I'd be happy with a Single Transferable Vote system of electoral reform. You get most of the benefits of a PR system but with the constituency link retained, which is vital in my opinion.  


gary jones
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Quoted from Town Monkey
Even the SNP have proved to be pretty useless with the NHS in Scotland.


Erm, NHS Scotland outperforms the NHS in the rest of the UK:

https://www.businessforscotland.com/scotlands-nhs-outperforms-the-rest-of-the-uk-heres-why/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45790051

I wish we had those hopeless SNPers running NHS England as poorly.

Murphy, for all his ego, is spot on with most things about the economy (hopelessly wrong about Nuclear energy, however) and my view is that MMT as a description of how money actually works in a modern economy is correct, as QE has shown.

We do have 'experts' involved in the decision-making processes in government. Unfortunately, they are the 'experts' who rotate in and out of the various right-wing/libertarian think tanks who refuse to reveal which particular billionaire fund them and whose research always seems to show that the government can do no right and business can do no wrong. Despite the vast amount of evidence to the contrary. HMRC is staffed with people rotating in and out of the big four accountancy firms so any tax legislation has more holes than Swiss cheese - some would say, by design. Not that the government cares about collecting tax as their defunding of HMRC shows (and this was true in the Blair era, though to a lesser degree).

Electoral reform would be a good start so I do hope that we end up with a hung parliament and a Labour/SNP/FibDem coalition which agrees to a move from FPTP. The polls aren't showing good signs for the Labour Party, but there is certainly something fishy going on with some of them. Not sure if it is the bias of those with landlines and not, but YouGov in particular has had some very unusual results - the two leadership debates between Corbyn and Johnson, for example. Every other poll indicates Corbyn was considered the 'winner' of both but YouGov seem to think Johnson did better and this is the only one reported in the media.

That's just opinions, however and it's not just YouGov. For voter intention, Survation seems to think that there is a swing of 13.5% from Labour to Conservative in London! Really? Labour battered the Tories in London in 2017. Something doesn't add up here.

You'd also have to be blind to not notice how the vox pops selected by the BBC, ITV and Sky in the northern towns always find people who would normally vote for Labour but are moving to the Tories, yet never seem to speak to anyone who is sticking with Labour. Even in areas with high leave votes, the chances of them not speaking to hardly anybody who voted remain or plans to vote Labour seems unlikely. I suppose it could just be that the editors have told the reporters to go out and get a certain sort of responses, but very strange all the same.
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Ahhh I must say that this thread has restored my faith somewhat. Please get out there and try and persuade your fellow Grimbarians that turkeys don't have to vote for Christmas, inspite of what the Bernard Matthews media keep feeding them!
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