The benign debt

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Weirdly I find myself agreeing with that last sentence, apart from Woods and Rodger.

The point about "backing the manager with funds available" hasn't worked (we are worse off now in every area since Fenty took control) because the investment has been nowhere near enough. We are in the bottom division, and a targetted investment in quality players would make a world of difference to our fortunes. We have never invested in the quality of player needed to win the league, or ever get close even in non league. If the owner wants the prestige and kudos that goes with being a football league chairman (non) then he has to accept he will have to invest his own money in return for football fortune, and to speculate to accumulate.

It is his number one job to find other investment if his personal fortune isn't sufficient to get us moving forwards.      

Yes, Woods and to a lesser extent Rodger are the reasons I said most.

I don't particularly disagree with what you're saying. I disagree with the sentiment that fans (of all clubs) expect somebody to come in and put millions of their own cash into the club like that's a reasonable thing to do. And the idea that there are people who are desperate to come and pour money into a football club that they have no association with baffles me. Anybody that wants to significantly invest in the club to the tune of changing our fortunes isn't going to be put off by £2 million in loans. That's small change compared to what would be needed for the type of investment to achieve what many on here expect. Even if that was a problem, it could be negotiated, deferred, or even remain until a time the club is profitable as currently stands.

2007 had a loss of about £300k, 2009 had a loss of £639k, 2011 had a loss of £936k, 2013 had a loss of £453k. These are huge sums of money at that level, so saying we've never speculated to accumulate isn't true, it's just that the gambles we made didn't pay off. Without a mega rich owner, we ultimately have to live within our means like many other clubs do. I assume the lesson that's been learnt is that investment into a football club doesn't necessarily lead to success. You mention we never got close to winning the conference because of a lack of investment, but look at Forest Green, they spent a fortune and never got close to winning it either. Spending money does not guarantee success.

If we assume there's no investor out there willing to come and chuck money at us, then our income is basically our gate receipts. Currently our average attendance is 71st (9th highest in league 2), so we're slightly underachieving on that measure. In 98/99 when we were close to the playoffs in the championship our average attendance would put us 60th right now. The hard facts are that this club is a lower league 1 / upper league 2 sized club.

I'd love somebody to come along and put a huge amount of money into the club, hopefully bringing success, but unless somebody knows a very rich Grimsby Town supporter, then nobody is going to do that without an ulterior motive. I don't recall it ever happened in the past when we overachieved either.

Quoted from pen penfras

The funds might have been badly spent, but that's more on the manager than the board. The board have largely backed managers with as much money as was available. Most managerial appointments made in the last 15 years were appointing the most popular candidate amongst fans for the job. The manager has then been backed with funds to the point where lack of success has caused significant losses.

Yes the board make these decisions and they have often gone badly, so ultimately they are responsible for the failure. But I don't think there's a large contingent of fans that would have done things hugely different in terms of managerial choices.

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The board haven't backed the manager, they have allocated funds from income generated by the fans and generous benefactors like The Trust and Mike Parker. You make it sound like they're opening their own wallets which is definitely not the case. JF's loan has been static for years and has recently reduced. Pretty much £40m spent on our behalf since we were in the Championship and could have been a lot more if we hadn't fallen from grace.

The last manager that was anywhere near my first choice was Brian Laws. Never shouted for Groves, Rodger, Woods, Bignot, Newell, Buckley III, Slade I or II and there's a lot of other decisions that many fans wouldn't have made over the years and plenty more recently. A bit like saying that nobody could have done any better. Another myth built up over the years to mask failure.

There's a massive chasm in perspective of the past fifteen years between the average fan on the terrace and ones that no longer attend to the ones with closer ties to the board..

Quoted from pen penfras

Yes, Woods and to a lesser extent Rodger are the reasons I said most.

I don't particularly disagree with what you're saying. I disagree with the sentiment that fans (of all clubs) expect somebody to come in and put millions of their own cash into the club like that's a reasonable thing to do. And the idea that there are people who are desperate to come and pour money into a football club that they have no association with baffles me. Anybody that wants to significantly invest in the club to the tune of changing our fortunes isn't going to be put off by £2 million in loans. That's small change compared to what would be needed for the type of investment to achieve what many on here expect. Even if that was a problem, it could be negotiated, deferred, or even remain until a time the club is profitable as currently stands.

2007 had a loss of about £300k, 2009 had a loss of £639k, 2011 had a loss of £936k, 2013 had a loss of £453k. These are huge sums of money at that level, so saying we've never speculated to accumulate isn't true, it's just that the gambles we made didn't pay off. Without a mega rich owner, we ultimately have to live within our means like many other clubs do. I assume the lesson that's been learnt is that investment into a football club doesn't necessarily lead to success. You mention we never got close to winning the conference because of a lack of investment, but look at Forest Green, they spent a fortune and never got close to winning it either. Spending money does not guarantee success.

If we assume there's no investor out there willing to come and chuck money at us, then our income is basically our gate receipts. Currently our average attendance is 71st (9th highest in league 2), so we're slightly underachieving on that measure. In 98/99 when we were close to the playoffs in the championship our average attendance would put us 60th right now. The hard facts are that this club is a lower league 1 / upper league 2 sized club.

I'd love somebody to come along and put a huge amount of money into the club, hopefully bringing success, but unless somebody knows a very rich Grimsby Town supporter, then nobody is going to do that without an ulterior motive. I don't recall it ever happened in the past when we overachieved either.

A couple of quick questions for you Pen Penfras..

It is obvious that the past fifteen years have been the worst sustained period in the club's history,  It has cost the club a lot of money, a lot of credibility to its standing in the league ladder, lost plenty of fans along the way, not kept up with the advancement of other similar sized clubs and put its loyal supporters through a lot of pain and anguish. For a person to be in control of all the major decision making, do you think that there should be some pecuniary cost to that individual or do you think he should have a free go and get his money back?

If there was a person or body who had a proven track record of running a football club successfully but didn't have any cash to invest. Would you prefer JF to step aside and let them get on with it or him to carry on as he is now?

You're kidding yourself if you think the £2m isn't a stumbling block of some kind as the club isn't even worth that. Even morally, it's an unmerited reward/refund for failure in performance..

At this moment I'd be happy to be a lower L1/upper L2 club.

Quoted from pen penfras

Yes, Woods and to a lesser extent Rodger are the reasons I said most.

I don't particularly disagree with what you're saying. I disagree with the sentiment that fans (of all clubs) expect somebody to come in and put millions of their own cash into the club like that's a reasonable thing to do. And the idea that there are people who are desperate to come and pour money into a football club that they have no association with baffles me. Anybody that wants to significantly invest in the club to the tune of changing our fortunes isn't going to be put off by £2 million in loans. That's small change compared to what would be needed for the type of investment to achieve what many on here expect. Even if that was a problem, it could be negotiated, deferred, or even remain until a time the club is profitable as currently stands.

Wharton at Scunny put £500k in over a decade ago and that saw them fly up to the Championship from the bottom of league 2, Fenty hires cheap and from what previous people have said negotiations breaking down over £50 a week petrol money tells a bigger story about getting good players to sign.

2007 had a loss of about £300k, 2009 had a loss of £639k, 2011 had a loss of £936k, 2013 had a loss of £453k. These are huge sums of money at that level, so saying we've never speculated to accumulate isn't true, it's just that the gambles we made didn't pay off. Without a mega rich owner, we ultimately have to live within our means like many other clubs do. I assume the lesson that's been learnt is that investment into a football club doesn't necessarily lead to success. You mention we never got close to winning the conference because of a lack of investment, but look at Forest Green, they spent a fortune and never got close to winning it either. Spending money does not guarantee success.

How many managers and players did Fenty have to pay off and bring in those seasons were we lost money.

If we assume there's no investor out there willing to come and chuck money at us, then our income is basically our gate receipts. Currently our average attendance is 71st (9th highest in league 2), so we're slightly underachieving on that measure. In 98/99 when we were close to the playoffs in the championship our average attendance would put us 60th right now. The hard facts are that this club is a lower league 1 / upper league 2 sized club.

We are easily a lower half Championship to top half league 1 team, give us a new stadium and a team to be proud of.

I'd love somebody to come along and put a huge amount of money into the club, hopefully bringing success, but unless somebody knows a very rich Grimsby Town supporter, then nobody is going to do that without an ulterior motive. I don't recall it ever happened in the past when we overachieved either.

Sound bite sounds like a fentys inner circle, let me remind you Mike Parker opened his investment in Town with £500k worth of shares followed by an agreed another £500k worth of shares, not loans, so bascially MP put in £1 million in one season before he left due to being let down by broken promises where as Fenty has put £2.5 million in over 13 years just for comparison. The Mullens came in and within a year they'd gone.

The benign debt needs to be removed to move Town forward, as long as that debt remains we are not attractive to investors and going nowhere but hanging around mid-table league 2.

Quoted from Bigdog

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The board haven't backed the manager, they have allocated funds from income generated by the fans and generous benefactors like The Trust and Mike Parker. You make it sound like they're opening their own wallets which is definitely not the case. JF's loan has been static for years and has recently reduced. Pretty much £40m spent on our behalf since we were in the Championship and could have been a lot more if we hadn't fallen from grace.

The last manager that was anywhere near my first choice was Brian Laws. Never shouted for Groves, Rodger, Woods, Bignot, Newell, Buckley III, Slade I or II and there's a lot of other decisions that many fans wouldn't have made over the years and plenty more recently. A bit like saying that nobody could have done any better. Another myth built up over the years to mask failure.

There's a massive chasm in perspective of the past fifteen years between the average fan on the terrace and ones with closer ties to the board..

Wasn't Mike Parker on the Board? It's ok expecting anybody on the board to open their wallets to fund the club but I can't think of a single board member during my time of supporting town ( 52 years ) who has donated money to club. Also wasn't Woods the choice of Mike Parker and not JF ?

Quoted from rancido

Wasn't Mike Parker on the Board? It's ok expecting anybody on the board to open their wallets to fund the club but I can't think of a single board member during my time of supporting town ( 52 years ) who has donated money to club. Also wasn't Woods the choice of Mike Parker and not JF ?

That is correct in my understanding of the timeline but MP had left the board before Woods got his war chest for the following season which the agreed £500k extra shares from MP and Fenty were to put in for the next season, we know that MP honoured his pledge and the board including Fenty allowed those extra shares but all of a sudden article 9 was called, Fenty resigned then gobbled up the £200k worth of trust shares to gain control again, what happened to Fentys part of the agreed £500k? and how much did Woods get in the end of what was set up for.

Something that is described as "benign" means it is not harmful.

How is this debt not harmful to the club !

Can we just call it a debt.

This thread just underlines the problem.

There are a dwindling number of people like pen penfras, who believe that JF has done OK and should continue in his role without investing further, and a growing majority (on here!) who believe that the £2 million debt is a millstone round the club's neck preventing external investment.

Point is, if you continue to do what you are doing, you'll continue to get what you've got. With our current set-up, Fenty & his stooges are just looking to survive. They rate the stadium, as the get-out clause, as only a 70% possibility and have appointed a manager whose methods are, to say the least, pragmatic.

Without the debt and without the conservatism within the boardroom, we may have an opportunity not just to attract external investment, but also to attract back the fans who have abandoned the club because of the poor matchday experience.

Unfortunately, the boardroom looks like a dictatorship where no-one is going to do anything to upset the equilibrium. Sad times.

Quoted from Bigdog

Recent history..

Lee Mullen
Mariners Trust
Mike Parker

and being fair John Fenty (the shares he paid for)

Buying a significant amount of shares is like a donation in real terms..

But prior to the last 10 years can you name any other Board members or Chairmen who have donated large sums or even mediocre ones to the club? None of the big names who have been involved with the club - FA Would, Paddy Hamilton, Dudley Ramsden or even Peter Furneaux ever gave the club money and Ramsden would have ruined the club to get his loan back ( allegedly ) .