1. How much does the club currently owe John Fenty in the so called benign debt?

2. Why can't this benign debt be converted into shares in full or part?

3. What would be the maximum he could convert without Article 9 forcing him to offer to buy out other shareholders like the trust or MP?

4. Why is there no repayment plan set to reduce the benign debt?

Quoted from Marinerz93

1. How much does the club currently owe John Fenty in the so called benign debt?

2. Why can't this benign debt be converted into shares in full or part?

3. What would be the maximum he could convert without Article 9 forcing him to offer to buy out other shareholders like the trust or MP?

4. Why is there no repayment plan set to reduce the benign debt?

1. 2 million ish
2. he doesnt want to otherwise he loses any chance of getting some money back
3.as above
4. you cant schedule to repay a loan unless you make money...we dont budget to make money....we budget to break even at best or to lose a swallowable amount and then fingers crossed for a football fortune event such as great cup run or unearthing a talent and selling it....


I wonder if the Trust would consider polling its members on whether to divert any monies it makes into repaying the benign debt rather than a youth set up where we dont even play the best players that come through anyway ?

Quoted from Marinerz93

1. How much does the club currently owe John Fenty in the so called benign debt?

2. Why can't this benign debt be converted into shares in full or part?

3. What would be the maximum he could convert without Article 9 forcing him to offer to buy out other shareholders like the trust or MP?

4. Why is there no repayment plan set to reduce the benign debt?

Whilst it's a loan, it's worth what it says. Shares in the club are effectively worth nothing as the club has no value - ie its' assets are worth less than its' debt.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

Whilst it's a loan, it's worth what it says. Shares in the club are effectively worth nothing as the club has no value - ie its' assets are worth less than its' debt.

So therefore if the club when mammaries up, the first in line to cash in any of the assets (Blundell Park, etc) would be debtors i.e those with loans or that GTFC owes money to.  Shareholders would get sweet FA.  Which is why I think he keeps it this way.  

If Fenty was to sell his shares for what was originally paid and cash in his loan, then he will have made money (MP/Trust shares) after 15 years of failure. Unbelievable Jeff!

Does anybody know if the loans are secured or unsecured?

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

So therefore if the club when mammaries up, the first in line to cash in any of the assets (Blundell Park, etc) would be debtors i.e those with loans or that GTFC owes money to.  Shareholders would get sweet FA.  Which is why I think he keeps it this way.  

If Fenty was to sell his shares for what was originally paid and cash in his loan, then he will have made money (MP/Trust shares) after 15 years of failure. Unbelievable Jeff!

According to the accounts, the club's liabilities are 2.5 million (not all to JF) and the assets are worth 1.8 million so the club is effectively bust to the tune of 700k on paper, however this shows a marked improvement as that figure was 1.6 million at the year ending May 31st 2016

Surely it only stops the club going forward. It should be written off.
Any notion of the Trust paying it off should is crazy. The Trust should be saving money in case it ever has to run the club.  

For intercourse sake not again have we not debated this to death

Quoted from Cambs Mariner

Does anybody know if the loans are secured or unsecured?

Quoted from GTFC Accounts

Mr J S Fenty has provided financial guarantees amounting to £325,000. These guarantees, together with his
loans, are secured by way of a debenture, dated 6th July 2007, creating a fixed and floating charge over all of the
company's assets.

Quoted from crusty ole pie

For intercourse sake not again have we not debated this to death

The thread title is fairly clear so I'm struggling to know why you would look at it if you don't like it?

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

[/b]

Thank you for that information.

What an incredibly benevolent gesture it would be if he kindly wrote the loan amount off..

Quoted from Bigdog

What an incredibly benevolent gesture it would be if he kindly wrote the loan amount off..

Only the rich get handouts from Tories.

I agree with that. It would. But also understand why he doesn't. Bottom line is, that loan is there as a loan that will EVENTUALLY be paid back in time. Whether it's in the next 1, 2 5 or 10 years isn't an issue. There's no interest accruing, there's no annual repayment taking away from our meagre playing budget. I don't believe John thinks the loan is putting anyone off investing or buying the club, just that nobody has at the moment. They will, eventually I'm sure. If it takes for John to walk away to do that i think we'll be waiting a while. He's not gonna be around forever but he's here for now.

Quoted from Biccys

I agree with that. It would. But also understand why he doesn't. Bottom line is, that loan is there as a loan that will EVENTUALLY be paid back in time. Whether it's in the next 1, 2 5 or 10 years isn't an issue. There's no interest accruing, there's no annual repayment taking away from our meagre playing budget. I don't believe John thinks the loan is putting anyone off investing or buying the club, just that nobody has at the moment. They will, eventually I'm sure. If it takes for John to walk away to do that i think we'll be waiting a while. He's not gonna be around forever but he's here for now.

I don't think for a minute he'll write it off, I don't think for a minute it makes the club a worthwhile investment and I don't think he understands for a nanosecond how many fans are pi$$ed off with the way the club is run/the poor matchday experience/the devalued product/being taken for granted.

Quoted from Biccys

I agree with that. It would. But also understand why he doesn't. Bottom line is, that loan is there as a loan that will EVENTUALLY be paid back in time. Whether it's in the next 1, 2 5 or 10 years isn't an issue. There's no interest accruing, there's no annual repayment taking away from our meagre playing budget. I don't believe John thinks the loan is putting anyone off investing or buying the club, just that nobody has at the moment. They will, eventually I'm sure. If it takes for John to walk away to do that i think we'll be waiting a while. He's not gonna be around forever but he's here for now.

No fixed repayment plan, but he is slowly paying it back, £200k paid off in the last year's accounts.

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

No fixed repayment plan, but he is slowly paying it back, £200k paid off in the last year's accounts.

Sadly not. That 200k was from a previous, non benign loan.....

Quoted from Biccys

Sadly not. That 200k was from a previous, non benign loan.....

The way I've read it was 313k was paid off of bank loans and 209K of directors loans was paid, and as Fenty is the only one with loans it was his loan that was repaid.  

Pg 13  http://www.extra-gtfc.co.uk/accounts2/accounts/GTFC%20Accounts%202017.pdf

Quoted from 139914

How many times do we need to cover the same ground before everyone gets ‘the plan’.  Let me simplify:-

1.  The club could and should have been taken into administration years ago, but the main creditor didn’t fancy 5p in the pound of his ‘investment’.
2.  If the loans are benign (dormant), why are they secured against the clubs assets?
3.  If the loans are benign, how come £200k was paid back last year when other non-benign debts remained outstanding?

As a question, who authorised repayment of the £200k?  Did the Uber powerful trust board member endorse?

Time you all woke up and faced facts.  The non-chairman’s plan is simple, run the club on an absolute shoestring, each time fortune strikes he takes a bit back.  There will be no investment while he retains control, there will be no ambition while he retains control.  The only thing that’s benign is the club.

I vowed never to set foot in BP again while he remains in charge, if you want to get rid then consider doing the same.  Feed the cancer (with your hard earned cash) and he won’t leave until he’s had his ‘investment’ repaid in full.

I have no time for egotistical megalomaniacs.  The club isn’t dead but it might as well be!

Dembele. Osborne and Jones are the only assets left and they look  like they may be on their way. With his fixed loans he owns Blundell Park and could make some of his money back with a new housing venture. In my opinion he has realised the new stadium isn't going to happen within the near future. He knew the appointment of Slade would divide the fans. He divided it further with the fans forum and then got rid of Kristine. In my opinion he is trying to drive the club down to a level where it is unattractive to purchase (allegedly).

Quoted from Cambs Mariner

Dembele. Osborne and Jones are the only assets left and they look  like they may be on their way. With his fixed loans he owns Blundell Park and could make some of his money back with a new housing venture. In my opinion he has realised the new stadium isn't going to happen within the near future. He knew the appointment of Slade would divide the fans. He divided it further with the fans forum and then got rid of Kristine. In my opinion he is trying to drive the club down to a level where it is unattractive to purchase (allegedly).

Makes sense  :o

Quoted from 139914

How many times do we need to cover the same ground before everyone gets ‘the plan’.  Let me simplify:-

1.  The club could and should have been taken into administration years ago, but the main creditor didn’t fancy 5p in the pound of his ‘investment’.
2. If the loans are benign (dormant), why are they secured against the clubs assets?
3.  If the loans are benign, how come £200k was paid back last year when other non-benign debts remained outstanding?

As a question, who authorised repayment of the £200k?  Did the Uber powerful trust board member endorse?

Time you all woke up and faced facts.  The non-chairman’s plan is simple, run the club on an absolute shoestring, each time fortune strikes he takes a bit back.  There will be no investment while he retains control, there will be no ambition while he retains control.  The only thing that’s benign is the club.

I vowed never to set foot in BP again while he remains in charge, if you want to get rid then consider doing the same.  Feed the cancer (with your hard earned cash) and he won’t leave until he’s had his ‘investment’ repaid in full.

I have no time for egotistical megalomaniacs.  The club isn’t dead but it might as well be!

The highlighted bit is a very good point.

Quoted from 139914

How many times do we need to cover the same ground before everyone gets ‘the plan’.  Let me simplify:-

1.  The club could and should have been taken into administration years ago, but the main creditor didn’t fancy 5p in the pound of his ‘investment’.
2.  If the loans are benign (dormant), why are they secured against the clubs assets?
3.  If the loans are benign, how come £200k was paid back last year when other non-benign debts remained outstanding?

As a question, who authorised repayment of the £200k?  Did the Uber powerful trust board member endorse?

Time you all woke up and faced facts.  The non-chairman’s plan is simple, run the club on an absolute shoestring, each time fortune strikes he takes a bit back.  There will be no investment while he retains control, there will be no ambition while he retains control.  The only thing that’s benign is the club.

I vowed never to set foot in BP again while he remains in charge, if you want to get rid then consider doing the same.  Feed the cancer (with your hard earned cash) and he won’t leave until he’s had his ‘investment’ repaid in full.

I have no time for egotistical megalomaniacs.  The club isn’t dead but it might as well be!

I don't really understand how you on one hand criticise for having loans that have no repayment schedule, therefore don't affect the playing budget, and on the other hand criticise that the budget is too small even though we budget to break even or lose a small amount of money as mentioned earlier in the thread. Increasing the budget would mean increasing the loan debt and then there'd be more complaining.

Sure, a higher budget might bring more success on the field which in turn brings in more fans and money, but that is no way guaranteed. Looking back, you can see large losses in unsuccessful seasons which must have meant a high budget.

Quoted from pen penfras

I don't really understand how you on one hand criticise for having loans that have no repayment schedule, therefore don't affect the playing budget, and on the other hand criticise that the budget is too small even though we budget to break even or lose a small amount of money as mentioned earlier in the thread. Increasing the budget would mean increasing the loan debt and then there'd be more complaining.

Sure, a higher budget might bring more success on the field which in turn brings in more fans and money, but that is no way guaranteed. Looking back, you can see large losses in unsuccessful seasons which must have meant a high budget.

In seasons where we signed journeymen such as Sweeney, Conlon et al - bit like Hooper & Dixon.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

The thread title is fairly clear so I'm struggling to know why you would look at it if you don't like it?

Though relevant It has to be recognized that this is going over old ground in reality.

Maybe Marinez should just cut through the periphery and ask getyourfactstraight? od should he now be know as debtyourfactsstraight  ;)

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Though relevant It has to be recognized that this is going over old ground in reality.

Maybe Marinez should just cut through the periphery and ask getyourfactstraight? od should he now be know as debtyourfactsstraight  ;)

I thought it was getyourfactsright (GYFR)! This thread should have been titled debtyourfactsright.

I agree it's going over old ground but the facts have changed a little since the publication of the last set of accounts.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

I thought it was getyourfactsright (GYFR)! This thread should have been titled debtyourfactsright.

I agree it's going over old ground but the facts have changed a little since the publication of the last set of accounts.

Like you say in reality the shares are only worth the value the seller places on them rather than a quoted figure, JF has an interest to attach a price to these "magic beans".  

Quoted from pen penfras

I don't really understand how you on one hand criticise for having loans that have no repayment schedule, therefore don't affect the playing budget, and on the other hand criticise that the budget is too small even though we budget to break even or lose a small amount of money as mentioned earlier in the thread. Increasing the budget would mean increasing the loan debt and then there'd be more complaining.

Sure, a higher budget might bring more success on the field which in turn brings in more fans and money, but that is no way guaranteed. Looking back, you can see large losses in unsuccessful seasons which must have meant a high budget.

Or poor management perhaps?

One thing that puzzles me is that when JF puts cash into the club, it's a loan. However, the trust put money in and it goes into a black hole. They don't even get shares in return.

Also, if I won the lottery, I'd buy Town and expect to lose millions in the process. Anyone putting money into Town or any debt ridden lower league club, would know it's not an investment, it's basically just burning your cash. JF expecting to get his money back is a joke. Using it to hold us to ransom is really poor form, particularly when his mis-management cost us millions by being out of the league.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Though relevant It has to be recognized that this is going over old ground in reality.

Maybe Marinez should just cut through the periphery and ask getyourfactstraight? od should he now be know as debtyourfactsstraight  ;)

No point in sending him a PM you will just get abuse if he can't / won't answer your questions

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Though relevant It has to be recognized that this is going over old ground in reality.

Maybe Marinez should just cut through the periphery and ask getyourfactstraight? od should he now be know as debtyourfactsstraight  ;)

I've had a few chats via pm messaging which I have kept off here and all he says basically it's my opinion and to stop going over old ground, the old ground stuff that hasn't been cleared up by the way just forgotten or buried. He won't answer anything that will portray him in a bad light or put the spotlight on how he has managed things.

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

Only the rich get handouts from Tories.

FFS why do you have to drag politics into it ! Also , as a point of interest, the last long term Labour PM , Tony Blair, certainly feathered his nest while in office, quit while the going was good and has amassed quite a sizeable property portfolio whilst still claiming to be some kind of socialist!

Quoted from MuddyWaters

In seasons where we signed journeymen such as Sweeney, Conlon et al - bit like Hooper & Dixon.

The funds might have been badly spent, but that's more on the manager than the board. The board have largely backed managers with as much money as was available. Most managerial appointments made in the last 15 years were appointing the most popular candidate amongst fans for the job. The manager has then been backed with funds to the point where lack of success has caused significant losses.

Yes the board make these decisions and they have often gone badly, so ultimately they are responsible for the failure. But I don't think there's a large contingent of fans that would have done things hugely different in terms of managerial choices.

Quoted from rancido

FFS why do you have to drag politics into it ! Also , as a point of interest, the last long term Labour PM , Tony Blair, certainly feathered his nest while in office, quit while the going was good and has amassed quite a sizeable property portfolio whilst still claiming to be some kind of socialist!

I love the way you act annoyed by my politicisation of a post by using a political argument, to make the post even more political.  All politicians are corrupt whether blue, yellow, red etc. So i couldn't give 2 hoots about Tony Blair the war criminal or him claiming to be a socialist. However original post still stands.

Quoted from rancido

FFS why do you have to drag politics into it ! Also , as a point of interest, the last long term Labour PM , Tony Blair, certainly feathered his nest while in office, quit while the going was good and has amassed quite a sizeable property portfolio whilst still claiming to be some kind of socialist!

I agree that Fenty's loans have little to do with his politics, but this must be the first time anybody has ever accused Blair of being a socialist! He was a centre-right social democrat, nothing more, nothing less.

No indication of him feathering his nest when he was in power but he's certainly stuck his nose into the trough in since then. Just like pretty much every former PM, in fact. Around a third of MPs are landlords, some in a big way, so it's not surprising that no government since Thatcher broke everything has done anything serious in the way of fixing our housing market.

Quoted from pen penfras

The funds might have been badly spent, but that's more on the manager than the board. The board have largely backed managers with as much money as was available. Most managerial appointments made in the last 15 years were appointing the most popular candidate amongst fans for the job. The manager has then been backed with funds to the point where lack of success has caused significant losses.

Yes the board make these decisions and they have often gone badly, so ultimately they are responsible for the failure. But I don't think there's a large contingent of fans that would have done things hugely different in terms of managerial choices.

So The Fishy does run GTFC then! No wonder we get the blame for everything. Wow!

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

I love the way you act annoyed by my politicisation of a post by using a political argument, to make the post even more political.  All politicians are corrupt whether blue, yellow, red etc. So i couldn't give 2 hoots about Tony Blair the war criminal or him claiming to be a socialist. However original post still stands.

I was merely trying to balance the  argument for both parties and I did try to qualify it by saying " as a point of interest ". But I still can't see the connection between JF being a Tory councillor and his benign debt.

Because a lot of this financial business is way over my head I do have a question though. If Mr Fenty loaned the club "X" amount, he I assume does not get paid any interest on this figure, so over time due to inflation his money loaned to the. Club in real terms is worth less. So if he had just put his money into a bank he would be better off.

Quoted from Gaffer58

Because a lot of this financial business is way over my head I do have a question though. If Mr Fenty loaned the club "X" amount, he I assume does not get paid any interest on this figure, so over time due to inflation his money loaned to the Club in real terms is worth less. So if he had just put his money into a bank he would be better off.

With the pathetic interest rates lately, then yes he would be slightly better off. That sort of money would more likely be invested and likely to have gone up more than inflation assuming it wasn't badly invested.

Quoted from Gaffer58

Because a lot of this financial business is way over my head I do have a question though. If Mr Fenty loaned the club "X" amount, he I assume does not get paid any interest on this figure, so over time due to inflation his money loaned to the. Club in real terms is worth less. So if he had just put his money into a bank he would be better off.

Correct.

If only he could get shed loads of shares free of charge to make his investment worthwhile...

So what are the shares worth, do they go up and down in value and can they be bought.

Quoted from pen penfras

The funds might have been badly spent, but that's more on the manager than the board. The board have largely backed managers with as much money as was available. Most managerial appointments made in the last 15 years were appointing the most popular candidate amongst fans for the job. The manager has then been backed with funds to the point where lack of success has caused significant losses.

Yes the board make these decisions and they have often gone badly, so ultimately they are responsible for the failure. But I don't think there's a large contingent of fans that would have done things hugely different in terms of managerial choices.

I don't recall there being too many fans happy with Neil Woods' appointment and I seem to remember us being quite underwhelmed when Graham Roger got the job too after Slade left us after Cardiff

Quoted from FishOutOfWater

I don't recall there being too many fans happy with Neil Woods' appointment and I seem to remember us being quite underwhelmed when Graham Roger got the job too after Slade left us after Cardiff

I think there were a fair number not happy with Slade's re-appointment.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Like you say in reality the shares are only worth the value the seller places on them rather than a quoted figure, JF has an interest to attach a price to these "magic beans".  

The shares are only worth the price the BUYER puts on them. If no buyers are prepared to put a price on them when the seller wants to sell then the shares are worthless.

Quoted from Gaffer58

So what are the shares worth, do they go up and down in value and can they be bought.

The shares aren't really worth anything right now. Yes, they do go up and down in value, but investing in a football club to make a profit is very unlikely to happen. Unless somebody comes along and wants to buy 100% of the club, then there's unlikely to be any financial value to a small holding of shares.

You can buy new shares from the club at £100 per share along with a shareholders certificate. This is a means of funding the club, plus you also get to own a small part of your club and the right attend the AGM meeting to ask questions of the board. It is something that is a good thing to feel a bigger part of the club, but not something you should do in the hope of making a profit.

http://www.extra-gtfc.co.uk/acatalog/Commerative-Share-Certificate.html

Quoted from Gaffer58

So what are the shares worth, do they go up and down in value and can they be bought.

The shares aren't worth anything unless you own a controlling interest. They will become of any value if someone wants to buy them to assume control. Until such time, they are worth a percentage of what GTFC is worth, which on paper is zero.

Quoted from pen penfras

With the pathetic interest rates lately, then yes he would be slightly better off. That sort of money would more likely be invested and likely to have gone up more than inflation assuming it wasn't badly invested.

How much would it cost to get backroom access when Town play at Wembley or beat higher placed teams in cup competitions and be lofted on to peoples shoulders at Bournemouth, somethings money can't buy but it can put you in a position where you reap those sorts of rewards. There are pro's and cons to being a money man, some just want the pro stuff and not suffer the consequences of the cons.

Quoted from 139914

How many times do we need to cover the same ground before everyone gets ‘the plan’.  Let me simplify:-

1.  The club could and should have been taken into administration years ago, but the main creditor didn’t fancy 5p in the pound of his ‘investment’.
2.  If the loans are benign (dormant), why are they secured against the clubs assets?
3.  If the loans are benign, how come £200k was paid back last year when other non-benign debts remained outstanding?

As a question, who authorised repayment of the £200k?  Did the Uber powerful trust board member endorse?

Time you all woke up and faced facts.  The non-chairman’s plan is simple, run the club on an absolute shoestring, each time fortune strikes he takes a bit back.  There will be no investment while he retains control, there will be no ambition while he retains control.  The only thing that’s benign is the club.

I vowed never to set foot in BP again while he remains in charge, if you want to get rid then consider doing the same.  Feed the cancer (with your hard earned cash) and he won’t leave until he’s had his ‘investment’ repaid in full.

I have no time for egotistical megalomaniacs.  The club isn’t dead but it might as well be!

I think most of us know the score with the non chairman; I urged him to invest in the team and the facilities in a post earlier today but I know I am p****g in the wind really. Like you say he has no intention of investing, he is just going through the motions in the hope football fortune strikes to let him get his money back over time.

Where I disagree is in the support for the club. It is my club, not his, and I will always support the team by going to the games. I will have a good moan (usually on here!) but I never let a chairman or manager influence my decision to go. All club employees/owners are temporary ,although some more stubborn than others but things will sort themselves out whether I attend or not.

I do wish we could find a way of getting him his money back so he can move on, and let us have a new start. I wonder if he would accept tenner a week and push off lol  

Quoted from pen penfras

The funds might have been badly spent, but that's more on the manager than the board. The board have largely backed managers with as much money as was available. Most managerial appointments made in the last 15 years were appointing the most popular candidate amongst fans for the job. The manager has then been backed with funds to the point where lack of success has caused significant losses.

Yes the board make these decisions and they have often gone badly, so ultimately they are responsible for the failure. But I don't think there's a large contingent of fans that would have done things hugely different in terms of managerial choices.

Weirdly I find myself agreeing with that last sentence, apart from Woods and Rodger.

The point about "backing the manager with funds available" hasn't worked (we are worse off now in every area since Fenty took control) because the investment has been nowhere near enough. We are in the bottom division, and a targetted investment in quality players would make a world of difference to our fortunes. We have never invested in the quality of player needed to win the league, or ever get close even in non league. If the owner wants the prestige and kudos that goes with being a football league chairman (non) then he has to accept he will have to invest his own money in return for football fortune, and to speculate to accumulate.

It is his number one job to find other investment if his personal fortune isn't sufficient to get us moving forwards.      

Quoted from pen penfras

The shares aren't really worth anything right now. Yes, they do go up and down in value, but investing in a football club to make a profit is very unlikely to happen. Unless somebody comes along and wants to buy 100% of the club, then there's unlikely to be any financial value to a small holding of shares.

You can buy new shares from the club at £100 per share along with a shareholders certificate. This is a means of funding the club, plus you also get to own a small part of your club and the right attend the AGM meeting to ask questions of the board. It is something that is a good thing to feel a bigger part of the club, but not something you should do in the hope of making a profit.

http://www.extra-gtfc.co.uk/acatalog/Commerative-Share-Certificate.html

£100 shares for £125, robbing fornicators!!! I bet Fenty didn't have to pay 25% premium.

Quoted from pen penfras

The funds might have been badly spent, but that's more on the manager than the board. The board have largely backed managers with as much money as was available. Most managerial appointments made in the last 15 years were appointing the most popular candidate amongst fans for the job. The manager has then been backed with funds to the point where lack of success has caused significant losses.

Yes the board make these decisions and they have often gone badly, so ultimately they are responsible for the failure. But I don't think there's a large contingent of fans that would have done things hugely different in terms of managerial choices.

Have to disagree with this particularly in the cases of Rodger, Woods, Bignot and Slade II. As fans we don't have the inside information JF has access to. With proper due diligence I'm sure we wouldn't have backed the appointments of Newell or Rob Scott either.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Weirdly I find myself agreeing with that last sentence, apart from Woods and Rodger.

The point about "backing the manager with funds available" hasn't worked (we are worse off now in every area since Fenty took control) because the investment has been nowhere near enough. We are in the bottom division, and a targetted investment in quality players would make a world of difference to our fortunes. We have never invested in the quality of player needed to win the league, or ever get close even in non league. If the owner wants the prestige and kudos that goes with being a football league chairman (non) then he has to accept he will have to invest his own money in return for football fortune, and to speculate to accumulate.

It is his number one job to find other investment if his personal fortune isn't sufficient to get us moving forwards.      

Yes, Woods and to a lesser extent Rodger are the reasons I said most.

I don't particularly disagree with what you're saying. I disagree with the sentiment that fans (of all clubs) expect somebody to come in and put millions of their own cash into the club like that's a reasonable thing to do. And the idea that there are people who are desperate to come and pour money into a football club that they have no association with baffles me. Anybody that wants to significantly invest in the club to the tune of changing our fortunes isn't going to be put off by £2 million in loans. That's small change compared to what would be needed for the type of investment to achieve what many on here expect. Even if that was a problem, it could be negotiated, deferred, or even remain until a time the club is profitable as currently stands.

2007 had a loss of about £300k, 2009 had a loss of £639k, 2011 had a loss of £936k, 2013 had a loss of £453k. These are huge sums of money at that level, so saying we've never speculated to accumulate isn't true, it's just that the gambles we made didn't pay off. Without a mega rich owner, we ultimately have to live within our means like many other clubs do. I assume the lesson that's been learnt is that investment into a football club doesn't necessarily lead to success. You mention we never got close to winning the conference because of a lack of investment, but look at Forest Green, they spent a fortune and never got close to winning it either. Spending money does not guarantee success.

If we assume there's no investor out there willing to come and chuck money at us, then our income is basically our gate receipts. Currently our average attendance is 71st (9th highest in league 2), so we're slightly underachieving on that measure. In 98/99 when we were close to the playoffs in the championship our average attendance would put us 60th right now. The hard facts are that this club is a lower league 1 / upper league 2 sized club.

I'd love somebody to come along and put a huge amount of money into the club, hopefully bringing success, but unless somebody knows a very rich Grimsby Town supporter, then nobody is going to do that without an ulterior motive. I don't recall it ever happened in the past when we overachieved either.

Quoted from pen penfras

The funds might have been badly spent, but that's more on the manager than the board. The board have largely backed managers with as much money as was available. Most managerial appointments made in the last 15 years were appointing the most popular candidate amongst fans for the job. The manager has then been backed with funds to the point where lack of success has caused significant losses.

Yes the board make these decisions and they have often gone badly, so ultimately they are responsible for the failure. But I don't think there's a large contingent of fans that would have done things hugely different in terms of managerial choices.

.

The board haven't backed the manager, they have allocated funds from income generated by the fans and generous benefactors like The Trust and Mike Parker. You make it sound like they're opening their own wallets which is definitely not the case. JF's loan has been static for years and has recently reduced. Pretty much £40m spent on our behalf since we were in the Championship and could have been a lot more if we hadn't fallen from grace.

The last manager that was anywhere near my first choice was Brian Laws. Never shouted for Groves, Rodger, Woods, Bignot, Newell, Buckley III, Slade I or II and there's a lot of other decisions that many fans wouldn't have made over the years and plenty more recently. A bit like saying that nobody could have done any better. Another myth built up over the years to mask failure.

There's a massive chasm in perspective of the past fifteen years between the average fan on the terrace and ones that no longer attend to the ones with closer ties to the board..

Quoted from pen penfras

Yes, Woods and to a lesser extent Rodger are the reasons I said most.

I don't particularly disagree with what you're saying. I disagree with the sentiment that fans (of all clubs) expect somebody to come in and put millions of their own cash into the club like that's a reasonable thing to do. And the idea that there are people who are desperate to come and pour money into a football club that they have no association with baffles me. Anybody that wants to significantly invest in the club to the tune of changing our fortunes isn't going to be put off by £2 million in loans. That's small change compared to what would be needed for the type of investment to achieve what many on here expect. Even if that was a problem, it could be negotiated, deferred, or even remain until a time the club is profitable as currently stands.

2007 had a loss of about £300k, 2009 had a loss of £639k, 2011 had a loss of £936k, 2013 had a loss of £453k. These are huge sums of money at that level, so saying we've never speculated to accumulate isn't true, it's just that the gambles we made didn't pay off. Without a mega rich owner, we ultimately have to live within our means like many other clubs do. I assume the lesson that's been learnt is that investment into a football club doesn't necessarily lead to success. You mention we never got close to winning the conference because of a lack of investment, but look at Forest Green, they spent a fortune and never got close to winning it either. Spending money does not guarantee success.

If we assume there's no investor out there willing to come and chuck money at us, then our income is basically our gate receipts. Currently our average attendance is 71st (9th highest in league 2), so we're slightly underachieving on that measure. In 98/99 when we were close to the playoffs in the championship our average attendance would put us 60th right now. The hard facts are that this club is a lower league 1 / upper league 2 sized club.

I'd love somebody to come along and put a huge amount of money into the club, hopefully bringing success, but unless somebody knows a very rich Grimsby Town supporter, then nobody is going to do that without an ulterior motive. I don't recall it ever happened in the past when we overachieved either.

A couple of quick questions for you Pen Penfras..

It is obvious that the past fifteen years have been the worst sustained period in the club's history,  It has cost the club a lot of money, a lot of credibility to its standing in the league ladder, lost plenty of fans along the way, not kept up with the advancement of other similar sized clubs and put its loyal supporters through a lot of pain and anguish. For a person to be in control of all the major decision making, do you think that there should be some pecuniary cost to that individual or do you think he should have a free go and get his money back?

If there was a person or body who had a proven track record of running a football club successfully but didn't have any cash to invest. Would you prefer JF to step aside and let them get on with it or him to carry on as he is now?

You're kidding yourself if you think the £2m isn't a stumbling block of some kind as the club isn't even worth that. Even morally, it's an unmerited reward/refund for failure in performance..

At this moment I'd be happy to be a lower L1/upper L2 club.

Quoted from pen penfras

Yes, Woods and to a lesser extent Rodger are the reasons I said most.

I don't particularly disagree with what you're saying. I disagree with the sentiment that fans (of all clubs) expect somebody to come in and put millions of their own cash into the club like that's a reasonable thing to do. And the idea that there are people who are desperate to come and pour money into a football club that they have no association with baffles me. Anybody that wants to significantly invest in the club to the tune of changing our fortunes isn't going to be put off by £2 million in loans. That's small change compared to what would be needed for the type of investment to achieve what many on here expect. Even if that was a problem, it could be negotiated, deferred, or even remain until a time the club is profitable as currently stands.

Wharton at Scunny put £500k in over a decade ago and that saw them fly up to the Championship from the bottom of league 2, Fenty hires cheap and from what previous people have said negotiations breaking down over £50 a week petrol money tells a bigger story about getting good players to sign.

2007 had a loss of about £300k, 2009 had a loss of £639k, 2011 had a loss of £936k, 2013 had a loss of £453k. These are huge sums of money at that level, so saying we've never speculated to accumulate isn't true, it's just that the gambles we made didn't pay off. Without a mega rich owner, we ultimately have to live within our means like many other clubs do. I assume the lesson that's been learnt is that investment into a football club doesn't necessarily lead to success. You mention we never got close to winning the conference because of a lack of investment, but look at Forest Green, they spent a fortune and never got close to winning it either. Spending money does not guarantee success.

How many managers and players did Fenty have to pay off and bring in those seasons were we lost money.

If we assume there's no investor out there willing to come and chuck money at us, then our income is basically our gate receipts. Currently our average attendance is 71st (9th highest in league 2), so we're slightly underachieving on that measure. In 98/99 when we were close to the playoffs in the championship our average attendance would put us 60th right now. The hard facts are that this club is a lower league 1 / upper league 2 sized club.

We are easily a lower half Championship to top half league 1 team, give us a new stadium and a team to be proud of.

I'd love somebody to come along and put a huge amount of money into the club, hopefully bringing success, but unless somebody knows a very rich Grimsby Town supporter, then nobody is going to do that without an ulterior motive. I don't recall it ever happened in the past when we overachieved either.

Sound bite sounds like a fentys inner circle, let me remind you Mike Parker opened his investment in Town with £500k worth of shares followed by an agreed another £500k worth of shares, not loans, so bascially MP put in £1 million in one season before he left due to being let down by broken promises where as Fenty has put £2.5 million in over 13 years just for comparison. The Mullens came in and within a year they'd gone.

The benign debt needs to be removed to move Town forward, as long as that debt remains we are not attractive to investors and going nowhere but hanging around mid-table league 2.

Quoted from Bigdog

.

The board haven't backed the manager, they have allocated funds from income generated by the fans and generous benefactors like The Trust and Mike Parker. You make it sound like they're opening their own wallets which is definitely not the case. JF's loan has been static for years and has recently reduced. Pretty much £40m spent on our behalf since we were in the Championship and could have been a lot more if we hadn't fallen from grace.

The last manager that was anywhere near my first choice was Brian Laws. Never shouted for Groves, Rodger, Woods, Bignot, Newell, Buckley III, Slade I or II and there's a lot of other decisions that many fans wouldn't have made over the years and plenty more recently. A bit like saying that nobody could have done any better. Another myth built up over the years to mask failure.

There's a massive chasm in perspective of the past fifteen years between the average fan on the terrace and ones with closer ties to the board..

Wasn't Mike Parker on the Board? It's ok expecting anybody on the board to open their wallets to fund the club but I can't think of a single board member during my time of supporting town ( 52 years ) who has donated money to club. Also wasn't Woods the choice of Mike Parker and not JF ?

Quoted from rancido

Wasn't Mike Parker on the Board? It's ok expecting anybody on the board to open their wallets to fund the club but I can't think of a single board member during my time of supporting town ( 52 years ) who has donated money to club. Also wasn't Woods the choice of Mike Parker and not JF ?

That is correct in my understanding of the timeline but MP had left the board before Woods got his war chest for the following season which the agreed £500k extra shares from MP and Fenty were to put in for the next season, we know that MP honoured his pledge and the board including Fenty allowed those extra shares but all of a sudden article 9 was called, Fenty resigned then gobbled up the £200k worth of trust shares to gain control again, what happened to Fentys part of the agreed £500k? and how much did Woods get in the end of what was set up for.

Something that is described as "benign" means it is not harmful.

How is this debt not harmful to the club !

Can we just call it a debt.

This thread just underlines the problem.

There are a dwindling number of people like pen penfras, who believe that JF has done OK and should continue in his role without investing further, and a growing majority (on here!) who believe that the £2 million debt is a millstone round the club's neck preventing external investment.

Point is, if you continue to do what you are doing, you'll continue to get what you've got. With our current set-up, Fenty & his stooges are just looking to survive. They rate the stadium, as the get-out clause, as only a 70% possibility and have appointed a manager whose methods are, to say the least, pragmatic.

Without the debt and without the conservatism within the boardroom, we may have an opportunity not just to attract external investment, but also to attract back the fans who have abandoned the club because of the poor matchday experience.

Unfortunately, the boardroom looks like a dictatorship where no-one is going to do anything to upset the equilibrium. Sad times.

Quoted from Bigdog

Recent history..

Lee Mullen
Mariners Trust
Mike Parker

and being fair John Fenty (the shares he paid for)

Buying a significant amount of shares is like a donation in real terms..

But prior to the last 10 years can you name any other Board members or Chairmen who have donated large sums or even mediocre ones to the club? None of the big names who have been involved with the club - FA Would, Paddy Hamilton, Dudley Ramsden or even Peter Furneaux ever gave the club money and Ramsden would have ruined the club to get his loan back ( allegedly ) .

Quoted from Marinerz93

That is correct in my understanding of the timeline but MP had left the board before Woods got his war chest for the following season which the agreed £500k extra shares from MP and Fenty were to put in for the next season, we know that MP honoured his pledge and the board including Fenty allowed those extra shares but all of a sudden article 9 was called, Fenty resigned then gobbled up the £200k worth of trust shares to gain control again, what happened to Fentys part of the agreed £500k? and how much did Woods get in the end of what was set up for.

I dont think this is correct as I think Mike Parker resigned off the board and went on TV the day the club offered the managers job to the Darlington manager and assistant at the time ( sorry cant remember his name), They then turned the club down as they where not happy with the state of the board room,  Woods had already gone and interviews had been done well before MP left,

edit Neil Woods was sacked on the 22nd Feb 2011 and Mike Parker resigned off the board 1st march 2011

I do wish people would stop saying we need new investors when, in fact, it's new benefactors we're apparently looking for.

Nobody seriously invests in a smallish football club as there's no chance of a return on your investment. If we want a new and improved sugar daddy, we should just say so.

Quoted from Maringer

I do wish people would stop saying we need new investors when, in fact, it's new benefactors we're apparently looking for.

Nobody seriously invests in a smallish football club as there's no chance of a return on your investment. If we want a new and improved sugar daddy, we should just say so.

Bang on!

Quoted from rancido

Wasn't Mike Parker on the Board? It's ok expecting anybody on the board to open their wallets to fund the club but I can't think of a single board member during my time of supporting town ( 52 years ) who has donated money to club. Also wasn't Woods the choice of Mike Parker and not JF ?

Don't forget the big difference between Parker and Fenty was that Parker's money bought shares, Fenty's was debt. Parker's money was effectively a one-off donation (given that no one would sensibly expect shares in a club like Town to give them a payback), Fenty's was a loan which has to be repaid. I know what i'd rather see.

If Parker had turned out to be a numpty who made crap decisions and had a terrible relationship with all and sundry he'd be easier to get rid of. With Fenty we can't get rid without the risk he'd take his bat home. And if you don't think that's likely, thats not an opinion shared by all those people who voted to give him £200,00 worth of shares.

Quoted from Maringer

I do wish people would stop saying we need new investors when, in fact, it's new benefactors we're apparently looking for.

Nobody seriously invests in a smallish football club as there's no chance of a return on your investment. If we want a new and improved sugar daddy, we should just say so.

Mike Parker was a benefactor - John Fenty is not. A benefactor would not have the club in its' current financial stranglehold.

Quoted from Maringer

I do wish people would stop saying we need new investors when, in fact, it's new benefactors we're apparently looking for.

Nobody seriously invests in a smallish football club as there's no chance of a return on your investment. If we want a new and improved sugar daddy, we should just say so.

I think investment covers more than cash. For his "investment" John Fenty has accrued great kudos. He is one of a very select few that is chairman (non) of a football league club. He has high and extensive local exposure that money cannot buy. It no doubt helped his political ambitions and he has had the priceless excitement of being carried shoulder high from the pitch at Bournemouth after losing to our relegation candidates but being saved by other results. He so learned from this experience that we went down to non league the very next season.

I agree we need a benefactor though - someone or a consortium with the brains and money to direct operations without looking for personal glory.

Quoted from cleethorpes_mariner

I dont think this is correct as I think Mike Parker resigned off the board and went on TV the day the club offered the managers job to the Darlington manager and assistant at the time ( sorry cant remember his name), They then turned the club down as they where not happy with the state of the board room,  Woods had already gone and interviews had been done well before MP left,

edit Neil Woods was sacked on the 22nd Feb 2011 and Mike Parker resigned off the board 1st march 2011

Good timeline Cleethorpes Mariner. Darlington Manager at the time, was it Cooper?

“We are easily a lower half Championship to top half league 1 team”

Lost track of all the bollox on this but whoever said the bit above is deluded...... what do you base this on?

Quoted from HertsGTFC

“We are easily a lower half Championship to top half league 1 team”

Lost track of all the bollox on this but whoever said the bit above is deluded...... what do you base this on?

I base it on our history you obviously base your lack of belief on what we can achieve as you are happy with John Fenty's ambitions, I remember when this Town had a fighting spirit, the under dog giving it to the bigger clubs, some people are happy with being bottom feeders some believe we are better than that.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

“We are easily a lower half Championship to top half league 1 team”

Lost track of all the bollox on this but whoever said the bit above is deluded...... what do you base this on?

Agreed...... we are a mid table league 1 team in my mind (nothing wrong with that)

But whose to say we couldn't punch above our weight again.......you've only got to look at the Scunts

Quoted from HertsGTFC

“We are easily a lower half Championship to top half league 1 team”

Lost track of all the bollox on this but whoever said the bit above is deluded...... what do you base this on?

Of course we are - easily. We have done it before and will do it again. Burton? Scunthorpe? Doncaster? and even Swansea and Bournemouth.

Our club has been run appallingly for so many years we have forgotten what we used to be like.

Edit - Shrewsbury?? Think about that - Shrewsbury which is about as exciting in football terms as...

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Of course we are - easily. We have done it before and will do it again. Burton? Scunthorpe? Doncaster? and even Swansea and Bournemouth.

Our club has been run appallingly for so many years we have forgotten what we used to be like.

Edit - Shrewsbury?? Think about that - Shrewsbury which is about as exciting in football terms as...

[img]https://i.imgur.com/wWrpMja.jpg[/img]

Quoted from Marinerz93

I base it on our history you obviously base your lack of belief on what we can achieve as you are happy with John Fenty's ambitions, I remember when this Town had a fighting spirit, the under dog giving it to the bigger clubs, some people are happy with being bottom feeders some believe we are better than that.

I remember when we where like that too and I want better. Rather then telling me what I believe read a few recent posts and you'll see that I am unhappy with the lack of ambition. If you base where you think you sit on history then Aston Villa are a great FA cup winning side and Coventry City are top flight material. History counts for nothing in sport

The only reason we need a sugar daddy, as it's been called, is to dismount Fenty and to get rid of his loans.  We don't don't need someone with millions to throw away, we need someone who knows how to run a business without alienating the customers and engaging the local businesses to get involved.  We should be looking to make money by selling players and not cut a loss every year.  We don't need millions piling into the club (ignoring the new stadium as GTFC aren't going to pay for that), we just need to live within our means.  If our means is league two then so be it.  

You just have to look towards Accrington Stanley to see a club that is efficient with its money and considering the size of their fanbase (no disrespect meant) they do bloody well for themselves. Scunthorpe with a similar fan base to our has survived and thrived at a higher level than us for far too long, without millions being pumped in until Swann came along.

This is a rough idea which I haven't looked too deep into and shoot me down if I'm speaking shite, but here goes.  Fenty has 43% (I believe, I can't be arsed to research the actual, but it's around there) of the shares, so, therefore, we only need to have 44% to gain a majority without having to offer to buy everyone else out. (Article 9?), So if everyone clubs together their shares, Trust (14%), Mike Parker (22%), The Mullens (6%) fans 5% (completely made up), then all we need is a competent board to run the show. We soon see how "benign" these loans are.

So simple eh, or maybe not.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

I remember when we where like that too and I want better. Rather then telling me what I believe read a few recent posts and you'll see that I am unhappy with the lack of ambition. If you base where you think you sit on history then Aston Villa are a great FA cup winning side and Coventry City are top flight material. History counts for nothing in sport

So you are saying that Aston Villa will never win the FA cup again and that Coventry will never grace the top flight, on what grounds, the same grounds you believe Town will never be a bottom half Championship or top half League 1 team. History counts for one thing, what you are able to achieve as history often repeats itself. We dropped out of the league before getting back in, who knows what the future holds, belief in what we can achieve is what drives us.

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

The only reason we need a sugar daddy, as it's been called, is to dismount Fenty and to get rid of his loans.  We don't don't need someone with millions to throw away, we need someone who knows how to run a business without alienating the customers and engaging the local businesses to engage.  We should be looking to make money by selling players and not cut a loss every year.  We don't need millions piling into the club (ignoring the new stadium as GTFC aren't going to pay for that), we just need to live within our means.  If our means is league two then so be it.  

You just have to look towards Accrington Stanley to see a club that is efficient with its money and considering the size of their fanbase (no disrespect meant) they do bloody well for themselves. Scunthorpe with a similar fan base to our has survived and thrived at a higher level than us for far too long, without millions being pumped in until Swann came along.

This is a rough idea which I haven't look too deep into and shoot me down if I'm speaking shite, but here goes.  Fenty has 43% (I believe, I can't be arsed to research the actual, but it's around there) of the shares, so, therefore, we only need to have 43% to gain a majority without having to offer to buy everyone else out. (Article 9?), So if everyone clubs together their shares, Trust (14%), Mike Parker (22%), The Mullens (6%) fans 5% (completely made up), then all we need is a competent board to run the show. We soon see how "benign" these loans are.

So simple eh, or maybe not.

I'm too drunk and tired to analyse that properly, but it looks worthy of further study.

Actually, whilst it'd mean Fenty could be out voted by other shareholders, he's still the effective owner of the club because of his loans which are secured against the assets of the club. So effectively he's got us stitched up.

Nice one John.

This man will hold our club back forever, he's crumbled us to the ground and continue to do so, its desperate needs that this bloke is out the club for good, id even take us dropping to non league again to get him out and start again. I thought that when the trust was started it was to oppose against the likes of fenty and co (coffin dodgers) but look how quite easily he took the trusts money. He's like a modern day Mr Burns.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

I'm too drunk and tired to analyse that properly, but it looks worthy of further study.

Actually, whilst it'd mean Fenty could be out voted by other shareholders, he's still the effective owner of the club because of his loans which are secured against the assets of the club. So effectively he's got us stitched up.

Nice one John.

Quoted from GTFC

Grimsby Town Football Club is owned by its shareholders.

The company is considered to be controlled by Mr J S Fenty by reason of his shareholdings and financial commitment to the company.

  

Fenty's loan doesn't attribute to ownership, they are the same as a bank loan, secured against the clubs assets but without interest being charged and a repayment plan.  We do run the risk of Fenty throwing all his toys out of the pram, and recalling his loans, but I'm not sure he could do it in one lump sum and we would have to agree to a payment plan.  Would he really ask for all the 2 million in one go, risking the club to go into administration, not what fan would do that?

I'm sure I'm missing something which means I'm talking shite.  

These are the kind of discussions the Trust should be having, draw up a 5-10 plan and run a campaign to get everyone involved, Op Promotion has shown what can be achieved.  Does the Trust have an objective? What's their long-term goal?

Quoted from Bigdog

.

The board haven't backed the manager, they have allocated funds from income generated by the fans and generous benefactors like The Trust and Mike Parker. You make it sound like they're opening their own wallets which is definitely not the case. JF's loan has been static for years and has recently reduced. Pretty much £40m spent on our behalf since we were in the Championship and could have been a lot more if we hadn't fallen from grace.

The last manager that was anywhere near my first choice was Brian Laws. Never shouted for Groves, Rodger, Woods, Bignot, Newell, Buckley III, Slade I or II and there's a lot of other decisions that many fans wouldn't have made over the years and plenty more recently. A bit like saying that nobody could have done any better. Another myth built up over the years to mask failure.

Allocating a budget that is above the means of the club is backing the manager. How can it possibly be viewed as anything else? It often hasn't resulted in any success which is my point. Spending money does not guarantee success. There's a lot of factors that have to go your way to be successful and no small part is luck.

You can't punch above your weight eternally. If on the field success isn't met with a rise in match day income to keep you at that level, then you need a benefactor. The only one we've ever had is MP and he quickly realised that this football business isn't as easy as put money in and get success, then scarpered. I'm also fairly sure JF put a lot of money into the club under a share issue at some point (to pay off the tax bill?), but I can't find any articles that list specific numbers. Is that not funding the club?

Those managers wouldn't be everybody's first choice, but Groves, Newell, Buckley III and in particular Bignot were very well received appointments. Saying the board should do due dilligence is true, but what does that entail? Buckley and Newell had previous successes before we appointed them. Bignot spoke like a footballing genius and there are lots of articles saying how brilliant he was for Birmingham ladies and Solihull Moors. These people often speak very well publicly, so it's fair to assume they speak very well under interview conditions too.

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

  

Fenty's loan doesn't attribute to ownership, they are the same as a bank loan, secured against the clubs assets but without interest being charged and a repayment plan.  We do run the risk of Fenty throwing all his toys out of the pram, and recalling his loans, but I'm not sure he could do it in one lump sum and we would have to agree to a payment plan.  Would he really ask for all the 2 million in one go, risking the club to go into administration, not what fan would do that?

I'm sure I'm missing something which means I'm talking shite.  

These are the kind of discussions the Trust should be having, draw up a 5-10 plan and run a campaign to get everyone involved, Op Promotion has shown what can be achieved.  Does the Trust have an objective? What's their long-term goal?

Let's put the caveat in first - I admire the Trust and what it has achieved since it started. However the vote that handed back the shares to JSF basically undermined any authority that the Trust was likely to have. Yes, the Trust has a seat on the board, but to what effect? What authority has the Trust now got to formulate a plan for the future of GTFC? - JSF has all the aces and I'm sure he'll play them when he sees fit - not when the fans or the Trust tell him to.

In the same way that administration was probably avoided a number of seasons back - see earlier post - if he was to call his loans back in at any time he could probably expect the same kind of return, if that. Time for someone / some group to start seriously consider looking at making either the right noises for a takeover / buy out or call the boards bluff on the matter surely? Can't keep moaning about this ad infinitum without some coherent plan.

Quoted from Bigdog

A couple of quick questions for you Pen Penfras..

It is obvious that the past fifteen years have been the worst sustained period in the club's history,  It has cost the club a lot of money, a lot of credibility to its standing in the league ladder, lost plenty of fans along the way, not kept up with the advancement of other similar sized clubs and put its loyal supporters through a lot of pain and anguish. For a person to be in control of all the major decision making, do you think that there should be some pecuniary cost to that individual or do you think he should have a free go and get his money back?

If there was a person or body who had a proven track record of running a football club successfully but didn't have any cash to invest. Would you prefer JF to step aside and let them get on with it or him to carry on as he is now?

You're kidding yourself if you think the £2m isn't a stumbling block of some kind as the club isn't even worth that. Even morally, it's an unmerited reward/refund for failure in performance..

As I just said, he did put money in through a share issue and isn't getting all his money back. I don't expect anybody to put millions into our football club, I want a self sufficient club that doesn't need to rely on somebody funding us and potentially pulling the carpet out at any point and leaving us screwed. I highly doubt he'll get back all his loans too.

Yes, I think it's time for a change. The current atmosphere is counterproductive. This atmosphere must filter through to the players and affect performances. I doubt the board still want to be here and read the abuse they get. We have somebody in John Elsom who was on the board and is now something like club president who has previous experience of running a football club. I'd be very happy to see more experienced people on the board that can help run the club and move it forwards. I'm sure the board would be happy with this too.

I'm not saying that £2 million isn't a stumbling block. I'm saying there's nobody out there willing to put that sort of money in. So the best that's going to happen is a change in personnel running the club, not a change in philosophy of how the club is being run. A change of owner/board will appease the disgruntled fans in the short term but, with the over reactions I'm seeing on social media and here, the good grace won't last long if on the pitch success isn't achieved within a couple of years. Even if the new owner put a lot of personal wealth in.

I think that there's an element in truth in every one of the recent ten posts or so.

In our present form with a deluded owner, a dinosaur of a manager, dwindling home gates and talented players not seeming like they want to play for us, I can't see too many teams in the Football League that we're head and shoulders above in status currently. That's the reality. How we have got to this position is well documented and how we are stuck in this position is well documented. Our club has been dumbed down so much over the past decade or so to match one person's ability and pocket, and yes, it looks like we will be a bottom feeder without radical change. I hate that thought, but it's me being practical.

It's also right that we could be a decent League One club pushing for the holy grail of Championship football. Would we need a new stadium or a massive influx of cash. Not necessarily on both counts. Lincoln look like they're going to do it with £350k extra investment, appointing the right manager and treating their fans as paying customers. Shrewsbury look like they're close to our holy grail by giving a decent manager the right backing and environment with gates that would be less than ours if we were in their position.

We know that we are being held back and scarily now seem to be regressing again by the lack of talent in one man's will to run a football club. JF is like one of those successful actresses that decides one day she wants to become a singer. She spends years and years releasing album after album, firing producer after producer, berating any fan who doesn't think she's got the sweetest sounding voice and still wonders why she's not a chart topping artist but is still prepared to prove everyone wrong when the stark truth is that she should have packed it in years ago and accepted that she was just a great actress.

Anyone got a fish factory for sale and take a benign loan as a deposit?

At any point did I use the word “never”? belief only gets you so far in football these days I’m afraid.

History actually counts for what you have achieved that’s why it’s termed as history.

Can history repeat itself in football terms? Yes definitely it does most seasons with a handful of wealthy clubs and some seasons with the less wealthy but rarely with the poorest.

Other than history nobody has yet to answer why we can consider ourselves “lower half of the championship top of league 1” level. I’d love us to be there but we’re not.

Before you come back with “what your saying is” as it’s a very tiresome phrase  I’ll be clear on what I’m saying whether people like it or not,

Do I like the current apathy? No

Do I want rid of the board? Nothing personal but if they persist in the way they operate which is delivering apathy yes?

Do I want us to play better football and win more? Yes

Do I believe we can hound Fenty out ? No

Can we ever have “fan ownership” at GTFC? I doubt it as we can’t even sing the same songs at the same time at some games

Do I believe endless threads about the same topics will support the point above? No, but those who want to be engratiated by their peer groups by posting stuff that’s “down with the kids” knock yourselves out, post what you like it’s a free country and we all need to respect that

Do I think the current non chairman has been the reason for our decline? Not completely but for all the good he’s done he’s done many things to self harm the club

Do I want rid of Slade - No but I am not convinced by him or Wilco

Do I think Slade has bought badly? I’m not sure what he had at his disposal but currently it’s definitely more duffers than diamonds

Do I think Osborne is playing a game to get a move ? I suspect so but hope I’m wrong

Do I think Jones is doing the same ? No

Do I think Hurst was decent and Bignot mental? Yes

Do we need to be lucky in the window? Definitely!

Do I think the club could move forward to better things? Yes of course but sadly only with more money being pumped in a change of ideas, complete unity, better players and a manager who is not just a safe pair of hands and a new stadium that’s not located on fantasy island!

I think that’s my current position on most of the endless tired and over worked topics a small amount of posters on here continually seem to drag out when they are bored with watching Jeremy Kyle and Hones Under The Hammer in a morning

Clear enough for you?

Quoted from Bigdog

I think that there's an element in truth in every one of the recent ten posts or so.

In our present form with a deluded owner, a dinosaur of a manager, dwindling home gates and talented players not seeming like they want to play for us, I can't see too many teams in the Football League that we're head and shoulders above in status currently. That's the reality. How we have got to this position is well documented and how we are stuck in this position is well documented. Our club has been dumbed down so much over the past decade or so to match one person's ability and pocket, and yes, it looks like we will be a bottom feeder without radical change. I hate that thought, but it's me being practical.

It's also right that we could be a decent League One club pushing for the holy grail of Championship football. Would we need a new stadium or a massive influx of cash. Not necessarily on both counts. Lincoln look like they're going to do it with £350k extra investment, appointing the right manager and treating their fans as paying customers. Shrewsbury look like they're close to our holy grail by giving a decent manager the right backing and environment with gates that would be less than ours if we were in their position.

We know that we are being held back and scarily now seem to be regressing again by the lack of talent in one man's will to run a football club. JF is like one of those successful actresses that decides one day she wants to become a singer. She spends years and years releasing album after album, firing producer after producer, berating any fan who doesn't think she's got the sweetest sounding voice and still wonders why she's not a chart topping artist but is still prepared to prove everyone wrong when the stark truth is that she should have packed it in years ago and accepted that she was just a great actress.

Anyone got a fish factory for sale and take a benign loan as a deposit?

I never thought I would see the non-chairman being compared to a successful actress.

Quoted from pen penfras

As I just said, he did put money in through a share issue and isn't getting all his money back. I don't expect anybody to put millions into our football club, I want a self sufficient club that doesn't need to rely on somebody funding us and potentially pulling the carpet out at any point and leaving us screwed. I highly doubt he'll get back all his loans too.

Yes, I think it's time for a change. The current atmosphere is counterproductive. This atmosphere must filter through to the players and affect performances. I doubt the board still want to be here and read the abuse they get. We have somebody in John Elsom who was on the board and is now something like club president who has previous experience of running a football club. I'd be very happy to see more experienced people on the board that can help run the club and move it forwards. I'm sure the board would be happy with this too.

I'm not saying that £2 million isn't a stumbling block. I'm saying there's nobody out there willing to put that sort of money in. So the best that's going to happen is a change in personnel running the club, not a change in philosophy of how the club is being run. A change of owner/board will appease the disgruntled fans in the short term but, with the over reactions I'm seeing on social media and here, the good grace won't last long if on the pitch success isn't achieved within a couple of years. Even if the new owner put a lot of personal wealth in.

Thank you for replying.

I agree with pretty much everything you say apart from a change in personnel should result in a change of philosophy, because that is what is needed. And also it's a common misconception that GTFC fans haven't got patience, dropping from the Championship, hanging around in the bottom tier for a few seasons and five years in non league and they still went to the bottom of the well in patience for OP. We can't base everything on the feelings and outpourings of the past eighteen months or so, because it's been a period when long standing tethers have been stretched to a magnified breaking point. I'm sure a fresh start would be given a considerable amount of patience and goodwill by the majority..

“And also it's a common misconception that GTFC fans haven't got patience, dropping from the Championship, hanging around in the bottom tier for a few seasons and five years in non league and they still went to the bottom of the well in patience for OP. We can't base everything on the feelings and outpourings of the past eighteen months or so, because it's been a period when long standing tethers have been stretched to a magnified breaking point. I'm sure a fresh start would be given a considerable amount of patience and goodwill by the majority..”

Great point!

The size of our club and the location of Grimsby and how much the area has been dragged down over the years, realistically we can't expect to be anywhere near the championship. We're a bog standard league 2 club who like 16+ others dream of a promotion to league 1. For me I'd be happy to sit around the top half of league 2 and show we're trying for those play offs even if we fail every year providing we are being entertained and giving it a go. The football in patches can be decent. The first 10 minutes of Accrington was exactly what I want from the club,  but for 70+ minutes of a game. Get the ball down and play football.
In regards to all this off the pitch stuff, I'm not sure what I believe but aslong as town don't get into anymore debt and don't go into administration I'd be happy (providing proper football is played). Maybe I'm not looking at the bigger picture, obviously I'd love success at my club but to what expense? A new stadium 9/10 is the beginning of things moving forward and progressing, but will that ever happen?

Quoted from HertsGTFC

At any point did I use the word “never”? belief only gets you so far in football these days I’m afraid.

History actually counts for what you have achieved that’s why it’s termed as history.

Can history repeat itself in football terms? Yes definitely it does most seasons with a handful of wealthy clubs and some seasons with the less wealthy but rarely with the poorest.

Other than history nobody has yet to answer why we can consider ourselves “lower half of the championship top of league 1” level. I’d love us to be there but we’re not.

Before you come back with “what your saying is” as it’s a very tiresome phrase  I’ll be clear on what I’m saying whether people like it or not,

Do I like the current apathy? No

Do I want rid of the board? Nothing personal but if they persist in the way they operate which is delivering apathy yes?

Do I want us to play better football and win more? Yes

Do I believe we can hound Fenty out ? No

Can we ever have “fan ownership” at GTFC? I doubt it as we can’t even sing the same songs at the same time at some games

Do I believe endless threads about the same topics will support the point above? No, but those who want to be engratiated by their peer groups by posting stuff that’s “down with the kids” knock yourselves out, post what you like it’s a free country and we all need to respect that

Do I think the current non chairman has been the reason for our decline? Not completely but for all the good he’s done he’s done many things to self harm the club

Do I want rid of Slade - No but I am not convinced by him or Wilco

Do I think Slade has bought badly? I’m not sure what he had at his disposal but currently it’s definitely more duffers than diamonds

Do I think Osborne is playing a game to get a move ? I suspect so but hope I’m wrong

Do I think Jones is doing the same ? No

Do I think Hurst was decent and Bignot mental? Yes

Do we need to be lucky in the window? Definitely!

Do I think the club could move forward to better things? Yes of course but sadly only with more money being pumped in a change of ideas, complete unity, better players and a manager who is not just a safe pair of hands and a new stadium that’s not located on fantasy island!

I think that’s my current position on most of the endless tired and over worked topics a small amount of posters on here continually seem to drag out when they are bored with watching Jeremy Kyle and Hones Under The Hammer in a morning

Clear enough for you?

I can't claim to be down with the kids but I'm pretty sure they don't spend their time debating the ins and outs of benign loans.

Gosh you have to dispair, why are people starting to talk this club down.

Just because one guy leant against a snooker table and said we overachieved before he took it on does not mean we have not been  (considerably) underachieving for the last 15 years.  Talk about trying to shape your place in history. I'd equate the JF years with what I'd call the lost decades.

Quoted from Swansea_Mariner

Gosh you have to dispair, why are people starting to talk this club down.

Just because one guy leant against a snooker table and said we overachieved before he took it on does not mean we have not been  (considerably) underachieving for the last 15 years.  Talk about trying to shape your place in history. I'd equate the JF years with what I'd call the lost decades.

I'm not talking the club down - just the way it's been run.

I'm proud to be a Mariner - always will be.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

I'm not talking the club down - just the way it's been run.

I'm proud to be a Mariner - always will be.

I wasn't specifically referring to you, but there are definitely views that we are at our level and should just accept that. We should be doing better.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Can we ever have “fan ownership” at GTFC? I doubt it as we can’t even sing the same songs at the same time at some games

I'm going to make an assumption here so apologies in advance if I assume wrong. I've picked on your post, but I've also seen this point raised across Fishy, Fb and Twitter, ie, "the fans can't agree how can they run a club?"  When you talk about not being able to sing the same songs at the same time, I read that as fans are not in agreement.  EVERY single town fan is united by one simple goal which is to be successful, where the differences arise is "what is success?" and "How do we achieve it? I want to achieve A, by doing B and C, and you want to achieve X by doing Y and Z. Who's right and who's wrong? irrelevant really. If the whole of the board was made up of people who wanted to achieve ABC, then the club would do this, whether it was good for the club or not. If you were also on the board, you could say why this was a bad idea and we might come to an agreement that D,E,F was the correct route and best for the club.  So you need people with differing opinions who are not just going to be yes men, which I believe we've currently got.

Just on the Fishy, there are some successful people who know how to run businesses, there'll be experts in  PR, Marketing, etc, it doesn't matter, whether they can agree on the little things but it could and can work.

I hope this makes sense.

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

I'm going to make an assumption here so apologies in advance if I assume wrong. I've picked on your post, but I've also seen this point raised across Fishy, Fb and Twitter, ie, "the fans can't agree how can they run a club?"  When you talk about not being able to sing the same songs at the same time, I read that as fans are not in agreement.  EVERY single town fan is united by one simple goal which is to be successful, where the differences arise is "what is success?" and "How do we achieve it? I want to achieve A, by doing B and C, and you want to achieve X by doing Y and Z. Who's right and who's wrong? irrelevant really. If the whole of the board was made up of people who wanted to achieve ABC, then the club would do this, whether it was good for the club or not. If you were also on the board, you could say why this was a bad idea and we might come to an agreement that D,E,F was the correct route and best for the club.  So you need people with differing opinions who are not just going to be yes men, which I believe we've currently got.

Just on the Fishy, there are some successful people who know how to run businesses, there'll be experts in  PR, Marketing, etc, it doesn't matter, whether they can agree on the little things but it could and can work.

I hope this makes sense.

Newport are a great example of a club taken over by a Supporters Trust. I know one of the directors and he's really enthusiastic about how far they have come in the two years since they took over by working as a team using each other's strengths in various areas.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

At any point did I use the word “never”? belief only gets you so far in football these days I’m afraid.

History actually counts for what you have achieved that’s why it’s termed as history.

Can history repeat itself in football terms? Yes definitely it does most seasons with a handful of wealthy clubs and some seasons with the less wealthy but rarely with the poorest.

Other than history nobody has yet to answer why we can consider ourselves “lower half of the championship top of league 1” level. I’d love us to be there but we’re not.

Before you come back with “what your saying is” as it’s a very tiresome phrase  I’ll be clear on what I’m saying whether people like it or not,

Do I like the current apathy? No

Do I want rid of the board? Nothing personal but if they persist in the way they operate which is delivering apathy yes?

Do I want us to play better football and win more? Yes

Do I believe we can hound Fenty out ? No

Can we ever have “fan ownership” at GTFC? I doubt it as we can’t even sing the same songs at the same time at some games

Do I believe endless threads about the same topics will support the point above? No, but those who want to be engratiated by their peer groups by posting stuff that’s “down with the kids” knock yourselves out, post what you like it’s a free country and we all need to respect that

Do I think the current non chairman has been the reason for our decline? Not completely but for all the good he’s done he’s done many things to self harm the club

Do I want rid of Slade - No but I am not convinced by him or Wilco

Do I think Slade has bought badly? I’m not sure what he had at his disposal but currently it’s definitely more duffers than diamonds

Do I think Osborne is playing a game to get a move ? I suspect so but hope I’m wrong

Do I think Jones is doing the same ? No

Do I think Hurst was decent and Bignot mental? Yes

Do we need to be lucky in the window? Definitely!

Do I think the club could move forward to better things? Yes of course but sadly only with more money being pumped in a change of ideas, complete unity, better players and a manager who is not just a safe pair of hands and a new stadium that’s not located on fantasy island!

I think that’s my current position on most of the endless tired and over worked topics a small amount of posters on here continually seem to drag out when they are bored with watching Jeremy Kyle and Hones Under The Hammer in a morning

Clear enough for you?

I rarely watch TV, work all day and on the fishy all night  ;), if you are tired of endless and over worked topics, do what anyone with a bit of grey matter would do and don't read them, titles often give away the topic or can't you help yourself replying, being all pro JF, to your post I don't need to go on a silly rant, just one word Scunthorpe.

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

I'm going to make an assumption here so apologies in advance if I assume wrong. I've picked on your post, but I've also seen this point raised across Fishy, Fb and Twitter, ie, "the fans can't agree how can they run a club?"  When you talk about not being able to sing the same songs at the same time, I read that as fans are not in agreement.  EVERY single town fan is united by one simple goal which is to be successful, where the differences arise is "what is success?" and "How do we achieve it? I want to achieve A, by doing B and C, and you want to achieve X by doing Y and Z. Who's right and who's wrong? irrelevant really. If the whole of the board was made up of people who wanted to achieve ABC, then the club would do this, whether it was good for the club or not. If you were also on the board, you could say why this was a bad idea and we might come to an agreement that D,E,F was the correct route and best for the club.  So you need people with differing opinions who are not just going to be yes men, which I believe we've currently got.

Just on the Fishy, there are some successful people who know how to run businesses, there'll be experts in  PR, Marketing, etc, it doesn't matter, whether they can agree on the little things but it could and can work.

I hope this makes sense.

Fair post that mate.

Quoted from Marinerz93

I rarely watch TV, work all day and on the fishy all night  ;), if you are tired of endless and over worked topics, do what anyone with a bit of grey matter would do and don't read them, titles often give awatitles often give away the topicy the topic or can't you help yourself replying, being all pro JF, to your post I don't need to go on a silly rant, just one word Scunthorpe.

Where am I being “all pro JF” ?

“titles often give away the topic” not the first time you’ve used that line recently with a poster who doesn’t align with your views.

I’ll assume another response where you put words in someone’s mouth are attach a stupid picture.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Where am I being “all pro JF” ?

“titles often give away the topic” not the first time you’ve used that line recently with a poster who doesn’t align with your views.

I’ll assume another response where you put words in someone’s mouth are attach a stupid picture.

Maybe I have used the line "titles often give away the topic" before, I know I am not the only one to have stated the obvious to you or someone else who is pro Fenty and can't help themselves whine and blubber about a thread only to continually post on that thread, you obviously can't help yourself because you pop up time and time again defending Fenty then complain about the thread, or try and water down what we are capable of or should be achieving to suit you mates ambition.

Leon is a good lad and did you read his post afterwards or just trying justify your view is the only view, a bit like your mate who you always stick up for.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/MsUPztw.gif[/img]

I know we seem to keep comparing ourselves against scunny but over the last few years I cannot believe they have had a sufficient income from gates, tv and transfers to break even, in fact apart from the premier 99% of clubs are losing money every year. So do all these other clubs have a generous non chairman that loans them the money for nowt or do they borrow from the bank.

[quote=347]

Maybe I have used the line "titles often give away the topic" before, I know I am not the only one to have stated the obvious to you or someone else who is pro Fenty and can't help themselves whine and blubber about a thread only to continually post on that thread, you obviously can't help yourself because you pop up time and time again defending Fenty then complain about the thread, or try and water down what we are capable of or should be achieving to suit you mates ambition.

Leon is a good lad and did you read his post afterwards or just trying justify your view is the only view, a bit like your mate who you always stick up for.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/MsUPztw.gif[/img][/

Who is my “mate” read back my posts you’ll see I am critical of the current apathy.