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Stadium Developers Set For Formal Planning App

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Caesar
February 9, 2017, 1:48pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from ginnywings


Because we lose money just about every season and are currently in debt to the tune of millions. We don't go bust because the board (mainly JF) make up the shortfall.

I'm also a bit fed up of people going on about conferences and how they can't see there is any need/any significant money from them. Well there is more to it than that and conferences are not the only way to generate income. There are loads of ways if you think about it.

My erudite opinion is: Stop faffing and get the sodomist built.


I get that it is not just the conference venues and just meant that as an example.  If we want to get into specific detail about additional benefits from what I understand they are;

1) Conference venues  (obviously part of it)

2) another larger part is the training pitches that we will be able to hire out making an income of them as well as not needing to hire training pitches ourselves.

3) There will be additional bars, restaurants and other facilities such as gyms that will bring additional income.  

4) We can sell naming rights

5) An increase in match day attendance, an increasing in corporate matchday attendees

6) Increase spend in the stadium itself due to better catering and other supplementary facilities.

If there are other things then please correct me.  However my concerns are

1) I cannot see conference events bringing in all that much.

2) I can see that additional pitches could be rented out for various reasons and training pitches used by us too, but does this have to come with a new stadium, could we not do this anyway?

3) The same argument could apply with the Gym, Is it that likely that we will have that many bars or restaurants that will be successful enough for people to come to on non-matchdays?

4) Naming rights normally cover the cost of building a stadium and provide little income in lower league stadium from what I understand.

5) Possibly more money coming in from corporate match day attendence, but I think except in the very short term I cannot picture a much larger following.  It strikes me that a lot of our cores support has been shaped by adversity and by comparing being a Grimsby fan and going to a place like Blundell Park as opposed to going to the more sanatised environments (which isn't to say that BP couldn't used being cleaned up a lot)

6) I am again somewhat sceptical that people will change having Fish and Chips in Cleethorpes for a burger in the ground in numbers enough to really make the money we are expecting of this move.  

Sorry if I am coming at these arguments later than most and people feel that all my points have been proven to be balderdash before and that there are very solid arguments with clear evidence that I am ignoring.  I am not against the new stadium and possibly slightly more for it than against it, it is just that I used to be convinced that we needed to move, then found myself visiting Colchester's new ground and other places of similar style thinking why the hell do we want to swap an atmospheric Blundell Park for this crap?  As a result now nervously unsure as to whether I am right or not.
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HertsGTFC
February 9, 2017, 1:56pm Report to Moderator

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I have been to a number of "new grounds" and most have been a massive improvement on BP. I did not go to Colchester but was the lack of atmosphere due to them being relegated last term or the environment.

I think your concerns are valid so please give the club and developers some time to attach the detail to each "head line".

The "conference facilities" are usually a rich source of income as they can also be used for amongst other things training venues, recruitment events, corporate exhibitions etc etc ....


"Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style  
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1mickylyons
February 9, 2017, 2:06pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Caesar


I get that it is not just the conference venues and just meant that as an example.  If we want to get into specific detail about additional benefits from what I understand they are;

1) Conference venues  (obviously part of it)

2) another larger part is the training pitches that we will be able to hire out making an income of them as well as not needing to hire training pitches ourselves.

3) There will be additional bars, restaurants and other facilities such as gyms that will bring additional income.  

4) We can sell naming rights

5) An increase in match day attendance, an increasing in corporate matchday attendees

6) Increase spend in the stadium itself due to better catering and other supplementary facilities.

If there are other things then please correct me.  However my concerns are

1) I cannot see conference events bringing in all that much.

2) I can see that additional pitches could be rented out for various reasons and training pitches used by us too, but does this have to come with a new stadium, could we not do this anyway?

3) The same argument could apply with the Gym, Is it that likely that we will have that many bars or restaurants that will be successful enough for people to come to on non-matchdays?

4) Naming rights normally cover the cost of building a stadium and provide little income in lower league stadium from what I understand.

5) Possibly more money coming in from corporate match day attendence, but I think except in the very short term I cannot picture a much larger following.  It strikes me that a lot of our cores support has been shaped by adversity and by comparing being a Grimsby fan and going to a place like Blundell Park as opposed to going to the more sanatised environments (which isn't to say that BP couldn't used being cleaned up a lot)

6) I am again somewhat sceptical that people will change having Fish and Chips in Cleethorpes for a burger in the ground in numbers enough to really make the money we are expecting of this move.  

Sorry if I am coming at these arguments later than most and people feel that all my points have been proven to be balderdash before and that there are very solid arguments with clear evidence that I am ignoring.  I am not against the new stadium and possibly slightly more for it than against it, it is just that I used to be convinced that we needed to move, then found myself visiting Colchester's new ground and other places of similar style thinking why the hell do we want to swap an atmospheric Blundell Park for this crap?  As a result now nervously unsure as to whether I am right or not.


I think with all due respect the right thing to do as a fan is look at comparable Clubs that are localish who have moved and have they seen an increase in average home attendances? On that check out for example Hull,Hudds,Donny,Scunny,Chesterfield and look at last 5 years at old ground versus first 5 years in new.Taking Hull first I think Boothferry Park was on restricted capacity of around 10k when they left and the KC has seen regular 20k or full capacity gates.The point being had Hull have made the Prem wilst being at BP they would have lost out on more than 50% revenue generated from ticket sales.I don't have the stats to back me up but pretty sure the other 4 Clubs are all pretty much 25-50% UP on what they used to be Scunny and Donny used to get gates of 2-2500 Chesterfield sub 4k and Hudds around 8k? Donny this Season had the facility to accommodate with ease over 4k travelling fans if they wanted to bring 4k to the reverse fixture we can`t reciprocate this ground is long overdue and it`s a must if we are to progress.BP is a fantastic and homely ground but it`s long had it`s day and should have been replaced in or around 1998.
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Caesar
February 9, 2017, 2:45pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from 1mickylyons


I think with all due respect the right thing to do as a fan is look at comparable Clubs that are localish who have moved and have they seen an increase in average home attendances? On that check out for example Hull,Hudds,Donny,Scunny,Chesterfield and look at last 5 years at old ground versus first 5 years in new.Taking Hull first I think Boothferry Park was on restricted capacity of around 10k when they left and the KC has seen regular 20k or full capacity gates.The point being had Hull have made the Prem wilst being at BP they would have lost out on more than 50% revenue generated from ticket sales.I don't have the stats to back me up but pretty sure the other 4 Clubs are all pretty much 25-50% UP on what they used to be Scunny and Donny used to get gates of 2-2500 Chesterfield sub 4k and Hudds around 8k? Donny this Season had the facility to accommodate with ease over 4k travelling fans if they wanted to bring 4k to the reverse fixture we can`t reciprocate this ground is long overdue and it`s a must if we are to progress.BP is a fantastic and homely ground but it`s long had it`s day and should have been replaced in or around 1998.


I always think of Hull can be considered as something of an anomaly in terms of what happened with them, a lot of other things seemed to fall into place for them that led to a very quick rise, stadium was possibly part of that but think they can be considered as an outlier, in exactly the same way Darlington got completely destroyed by their foolish move is an outlier and should not be used as a knee-jerk argument against a move.  Maybe I am just being pessemistic here but I cannot imagine Town playing in the Prem at any point in the near future so guess I am not quite seeing that but get your point that they certainly would of massively lost out if they had not been able to milk the premier league wannabe fans that came to them.

The other local clubs I suppose are interesting examples in terms of their attendence (will have a dig around to see if I can find their attendence stats if I can find time)  if they are around that figure that is impressive if they are maintaining it to be fair, however looking at their league positions since the moves I don't think either club have progressed much beyond where they were, indeed Chesterfield are now in real trouble and the Scunts are maintaining a promotion push out of an indulgent owner funding a club well beyond their crowds/  

The away following we can accommodate is a fair point, while I don't envisage us being in the Prem I could see us in the Champ getting decent away crowds and always the possibility of the cup draw. I don't think we have actually had a problem with it selling out yet though and would be surprised if we do this season tbh though would be happy to be proved wrong on this.  I guess the question would be is it worth it for those few occasions?  It probably is with the other factors but would like to see more evidence to be certain to be honest.  

As regards atmosphere at Colchester Herts Part of it may of been the mood around the place, but having studied in Colchester I was alarmed at just how out of town it was, I mean the station is on the outskirts of the town anyway, but you had to get a bus driving you further away from the town centre to a flat plain of land next to the A12 that made watching a game of football seem like the most soulless activity imaginable that a nice seat and clean toilets could not come close to compensating for.  

Plus am happy to give the club time to put the evidence all there and to be honest generally trust them as they have invested so much time and effort into the move I honestly believe they are convinced and that it is not a vanity project.  I am just aware that sometimes when you convince yourself that something is the only solution that after a while you ignore any problems or evidence contrary to your chosen solution.
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TheRonRaffertyFanClub
February 9, 2017, 2:57pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from 1mickylyons


I think with all due respect the right thing to do as a fan is look at comparable Clubs that are localish who have moved and have they seen an increase in average home attendances? On that check out for example Hull,Hudds,Donny,Scunny,Chesterfield and look at last 5 years at old ground versus first 5 years in new.Taking Hull first I think Boothferry Park was on restricted capacity of around 10k when they left and the KC has seen regular 20k or full capacity gates.The point being had Hull have made the Prem wilst being at BP they would have lost out on more than 50% revenue generated from ticket sales.I don't have the stats to back me up but pretty sure the other 4 Clubs are all pretty much 25-50% UP on what they used to be Scunny and Donny used to get gates of 2-2500 Chesterfield sub 4k and Hudds around 8k? Donny this Season had the facility to accommodate with ease over 4k travelling fans if they wanted to bring 4k to the reverse fixture we can`t reciprocate this ground is long overdue and it`s a must if we are to progress.BP is a fantastic and homely ground but it`s long had it`s day and should have been replaced in or around 1998.


The clubs you mention Mickey have something else in common. At or around the time of the new ground they were taken over and/or heavily injected with cash. None of them had to think about developer income to the extent that we do with the Town ground. But even so this is all pretty irrelevant, just like our desire to have something new and shiny and long overdue for our club.

In the end it won't be possible income streams or gate receipts that decide this proposal, it will be the houses and all the other stuff the developers want to profit from if they were to build it. Sentiment will not come into it. Money will be the key.


Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
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WOZOFGRIMSBY
February 9, 2017, 3:02pm Report to Moderator

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I have to agree with what my old mate Micky has put above. The opportunity for change will be strange to a lot of people, and nobody likes change. The club need to be able to encourage home AND away support. That cannot be done at BP. That means income streams such as catering can be developed/improved. And am sure there are visiting supporters that have vowed never to return BP because of the view!

Personally I would've liked to see at least 1 double/triple tier stand to remove that 'identikit' feel. But, am Willing to leave it to the professionals as long as they consult the fans.


on our way
We're on our way
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We're on our way

How do we get there
Through bloody inept management of a football club that's how
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Cloudy
February 9, 2017, 3:03pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Caesar

I am not against the new stadium and possibly slightly more for it than against it, it is just that I used to be convinced that we needed to move, then found myself visiting Colchester's new ground and other places of similar style thinking why the hell do we want to swap an atmospheric Blundell Park for this crap?  As a result now nervously unsure as to whether I am right or not.


Atmospheric Blundell Park??

It lost most of its atmosphere years ago
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TheRonRaffertyFanClub
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Quoted from Cloudy


Atmospheric Blundell Park??

It lost most of its atmosphere years ago


Compared to days of old with standing room only that is certainly true. Whether BP as all seater is more atmospheric than a new ground is possibly a bit more debatable but probably true.

Talking to a friend who is a Norwich season ticket holder, I told him the trauma there was over Town's new ground. His response was he was pleased Norwich didn't have the problem because he had yet to go to any new ground that had the same atmosphere as its predecessor. One example was Bolton, another was Leicester. Both Burnden Park and Filbert Street were what you would call "cosy" and had great presence from the crowd. It's not the size of the crowd alone that makes for the atmosphere, the ground also contributes.


Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
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HertsGTFC
February 9, 2017, 3:36pm Report to Moderator

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Compared to days of old with standing room only that is certainly true. Whether BP as all seater is more atmospheric than a new ground is possibly a bit more debatable but probably true.

Talking to a friend who is a Norwich season ticket holder, I told him the trauma there was over Town's new ground. His response was he was pleased Norwich didn't have the problem because he had yet to go to any new ground that had the same atmosphere as its predecessor. One example was Bolton, another was Leicester. Both Burnden Park and Filbert Street were what you would call "cosy" and had great presence from the crowd. It's not the size of the crowd alone that makes for the atmosphere, the ground also contributes.


I see the point above but what do the Bolton & Leicester fans think? It's easy to get an impression when you visits once a season or once in a blue moon.



"Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style  
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Swansea_Mariner
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Quoted from Caesar


I always think of Hull can be considered as something of an anomaly in terms of what happened with them, a lot of other things seemed to fall into place for them that led to a very quick rise, stadium was possibly part of that but think they can be considered as an outlier, in exactly the same way Darlington got completely destroyed by their foolish move is an outlier and should not be used as a knee-jerk argument against a move.  Maybe I am just being pessemistic here but I cannot imagine Town playing in the Prem at any point in the near future so guess I am not quite seeing that but get your point that they certainly would of massively lost out if they had not been able to milk the premier league wannabe fans that came to them.

The other local clubs I suppose are interesting examples in terms of their attendence (will have a dig around to see if I can find their attendence stats if I can find time)  if they are around that figure that is impressive if they are maintaining it to be fair, however looking at their league positions since the moves I don't think either club have progressed much beyond where they were, indeed Chesterfield are now in real trouble and the Scunts are maintaining a promotion push out of an indulgent owner funding a club well beyond their crowds/  

The away following we can accommodate is a fair point, while I don't envisage us being in the Prem I could see us in the Champ getting decent away crowds and always the possibility of the cup draw. I don't think we have actually had a problem with it selling out yet though and would be surprised if we do this season tbh though would be happy to be proved wrong on this.  I guess the question would be is it worth it for those few occasions?  It probably is with the other factors but would like to see more evidence to be certain to be honest.  

As regards atmosphere at Colchester Herts Part of it may of been the mood around the place, but having studied in Colchester I was alarmed at just how out of town it was, I mean the station is on the outskirts of the town anyway, but you had to get a bus driving you further away from the town centre to a flat plain of land next to the A12 that made watching a game of football seem like the most soulless activity imaginable that a nice seat and clean toilets could not come close to compensating for.  

Plus am happy to give the club time to put the evidence all there and to be honest generally trust them as they have invested so much time and effort into the move I honestly believe they are convinced and that it is not a vanity project.  I am just aware that sometimes when you convince yourself that something is the only solution that after a while you ignore any problems or evidence contrary to your chosen solution.


Darlington are the anomaly not hull. Thier stadium was hindered by the capacity being limited due to planning regulations, so they built a 25k stadium but were only allowed 10k max attendance.

Any number of stadia could be quoted as leading to increased attendances, close to where I live Swansea's  attendances literally  doubled overnight.
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