So Would You

If his goals got us promoted welcome Ched Evans to the club

this for me is an hard one....Convicted Rapist ...but served his time so does he deserve a second chance

hasnt said sorry ....but then again he is appealing so to say sorry would be an admission of guilt !!!!

convicted on the word of proven liar !!!!! and when i say that  it is on the grounds that she accused both Ched and Clayton of rape....the jury decided she was lieing about Clayton   but took her word for it against Ched !!!

One of the worse crimes to comitt against a fellow human ...would we want someone like that in OUR shirt !!!!!


The above points are playing devils advocate to try get debate  and a sensible debate would be great .....lets try do it without calling and abusing each other

Quoted from Brazilnut

The above points are playing devils advocate to try get debate  and a sensible debate would be great .....lets try do it without calling and abusing each other

Well said.

I personally wouldn't welcome back anyone convicted of that sort of crime. Also he is still on license so I believe so hasn't fully served his sentence.

Would be bad for team morale and also would put some fans off coming to the ground , perhaps losing sponsors too . For those reason it would be a no.

He has served his time and deserves to get his life back together ( Get A job)  Not sure if it should be in football though?

The 'evidence' against Evans was an utter joke. In fact, the evidence against him was exactly the same as that against our former centre back Clayton Macdonald. For one to be found innocent, the other guilty is ridiculous. The alleged victim was on twitter shortly after the incident claiming she was 'going to win big', she had also cried wolf before. Tons of inconsistencies, IMO it should never have gone to trial, never mind led to a conviction.

I'd welcome his signing but he's well out of our league I'm afraid.

This is a very sensitive issue.  We will never know the actual truth their word against hers.  Actually thinking about it this sort of thing could have happened to me when i use to go out on the pull.  Pulling a bird that was drunk and taking me back to her place she could of said things about me and although the only proof would be that we had sex i wouldn't have a leg to stand on.  Oh btw i would never rape anyone and if she said no i would respect that.  

Quoted from 75

The 'evidence' against Evans was an utter joke. In fact, the evidence against him was exactly the same as that against our former centre back Clayton Macdonald. For one to be found innocent, the other guilty is ridiculous. The alleged victim was on twitter shortly after the incident claiming she was 'going to win big', she had also cried wolf before. Tons of inconsistencies, IMO it should never have gone to trial, never mind led to a conviction.

I'd welcome his signing but he's well out of our league I'm afraid.

BP did Clayton stand by Evans as he was there?

I'm sure many will remember, as I do, the negative reaction of some of our fans to a player who signed for us on loan while facing sex charges, of which he was later cleared. While I understood and respected the argument that we should not have signed him while he was facing such charges, I took the view, and still do, that it is for the legal process to take its course and for us as a club to deal with that when necessary and not to try to be judge and jury ourselves.

That is why, for me, the Evans case is very different. While I share some of the misgivings raised here and elsewhere about the safety of his conviction, and as much as I understand offenders should be rehabilitated as part of the criminal justice process, the fact is that he currently remains a convicted rapist. As such, I would not want him representing my club until and unless that conviction was overturned through due legal process. The volume of pressure Sheffield United have been put under over the last few weeks should also serve as a warning.

Quoted from Brazilnut

If his goals got us promoted welcome Ched Evans to the club

this for me is an hard one....Convicted Rapist ...but served his time so does he deserve a second chance

hasnt said sorry ....but then again he is appealing so to say sorry would be an admission of guilt !!!!

convicted on the word of proven liar !!!!! and when i say that  it is on the grounds that she accused both Ched and Clayton of rape....the jury decided she was lieing about Clayton   but took her word for it against Ched !!!

One of the worse crimes to comitt against a fellow human ...would we want someone like that in OUR shirt !!!!!


The above points are playing devils advocate to try get debate  and a sensible debate would be great .....lets try do it without calling and abusing each other

This is a very dubious statement, just because a jury found Clayton not guilty does make her a proven liar, maybe enough doubt to not convict him, if you say this though by the same standard Ched is a proven rapist a notoriously difficult crime to get a conviction.
To you question the answer is no, there is too much baggage with him, already sponsors are leaving sheff utd and he`s not started training yet.  He is a proven sex offender who has thrown away his career and will get very little sympathy here

The problem with this case is did he have her consent,

We excepted Clayton when he played for us,

Did Evans take advantage of her  being in a drunken state,

Or did she see this to make a buck or two,

I do not think any of us can say he is innocent,

Also I do not think any of us can say he was guilty,

Another day in another court the verdict might have been different,

On the football side, he has served his time and why should he be stopped from earing an honest living,

If he was a bricklayer would he be stopped from laying bricks,

Just because he is a footballer why should it be any different,

He will play again but not for us.

Quoted from 75

The 'evidence' against Evans was an utter joke. In fact, the evidence against him was exactly the same as that against our former centre back Clayton Macdonald. For one to be found innocent, the other guilty is ridiculous. The alleged victim was on twitter shortly after the incident claiming she was 'going to win big', she had also cried wolf before. Tons of inconsistencies, IMO it should never have gone to trial, never mind led to a conviction.

I'd welcome his signing but he's well out of our league I'm afraid.

That's just not true. The jury concluded the woman in question consented to sex with Mcdonald but not with Evans who turned up and joined in - the jury decided without any consent. Lots of people seem to have bought into the chedevans.com stuff without actually bothering to check the facts. I'm also unsure why people who've read bits in the media think they're so much better placed to judge his guilt or innocence than a jury which sat through weeks of evidence.

Re him signing I think it's a very complicated subject. I think he should be allowed to resume his career now he's served his time but I personally wouldn't want Town to sign him.

Quoted from Rick12

Truth is any half self respecting women wouldent sexually liase with people unless there in a commited relationship.Says a lot about some women out there.

Well what a load of misogynistic nonsense that is.

I think the problems Sheffield United are experiencing means it would be a major issue.

Clubs are reliant upon income from sponsors. In our case if say, Youngs didnt want their product associated with a club who had signed a convicted rapist and withdrew their sponsorship that would be a big and avoidable loss.

Even if Youngs themselves didnt have concerns the people who buy their products may do. They stop buying and Youngs have to act.

Whatever the rights of wrong of the case the above makes it a no go for me

Quoted from Rick12

Truth is any half self respecting women wouldent sexually liase with people unless there in a commited relationship.Says a lot about some women out there.

Would any self respecting man, or is that different? as a man i have nothing against women who enjoy sex, you are living in the dark ages with morals learnt from a hypocrit church, if you want this type of society you can go live in a muslim country

Quoted from codcheeky

as a man i have nothing against women who enjoy sex

I'm not having too much luck either !

Quoted from Rodley Mariner

Well what a load of misogynistic nonsense that is.

I thought that was a reasonable statement,

Some people have values and some do not,

I do not think this young lady was an innocent in this,

On the other hand Evans has shown what type of man he is,

Point of Law,

If the lady involved was too drunk to consent,

Then surely she was too drunk to say no,

Evans took advantage of that but does that make him a rapist,

The law says yes,

BUT

How come a few minutes earlier she was deemed to be sober enough to say yes to Clayton,

This is certainly not an open and shut case.

My final word on the subject is why even if Evans is guilty why can he not go back to work like any other ex convict.

Quoted from Rodley Mariner

Well what a load of misogynistic nonsense that is.

Know it reflects itself on the man as well(deleted the initial post for which I was to judgmental and harsh on) .But seriously in the line of work Iam in you see it all all the time and the distress it causes on the kids.Unwanted kids who suffer as a result of one night stands .

Quoted from grimsby pete

If the lady involved was too drunk to consent,

Then surely she was too drunk to say no,

Evans took advantage of that but does that make him a rapist,

The law says yes,

If she was too drunk to speak and Evans took advantage of her then you don't think that constitutes rape? Like you say, the law does.

If you advocate the 'served his time' argument then presumably you'd feel the same if we signed a released paedophile?

Quoted from Rick12

Know it reflects itself on the man as well(altered the initial the post for which I was to judgmental on women alone).But seriously in the line of work Iam in you see it all all the time and the distress it causes on the kids.Unwanted kids who suffer as a result of one night stands .

That's a pretty massive generalisation though Rick isn't it?

Is his case any worse than that of Lee Hughes, who got a league club after being released. A life was lost due to his stupidity.

Lee Hughes definitely doesn't show any remorse for what he did. Ched Evans genuinely thinks he's innocent (hence appeals etc). Different argument for me. I'm not sure I'd want Evans at BP.

Quoted from Rodley Mariner

That's a pretty massive generalisation though Rick isn't it?

Fair enough but I feel sex with both parties should be used under the right conditions.

Quoted from LH

Lee Hughes definitely doesn't show any remorse for what he did. Ched Evans genuinely thinks he's innocent (hence appeals etc). Different argument for me. I'm not sure I'd want Evans at BP.

My point is, is that Lee Hughes can do what he did and play football BUT there is this uproar about Ched Evans playing again. While not wanting to make the crime he was found guilty of insignificant, are politicians and sponsors saying that rape is worse than causing somebody's death through severe negligence.

Rape victims live with their ordeal. I would class it as seriously as murder.

Quoted from codcheeky

Would any self respecting man, or is that different? as a man i have nothing against women who enjoy sex, you are living in the dark ages with morals learnt from a hypocrit church, if you want this type of society you can go live in a muslim country

Point taken .Like said to Rodley Mariner though the somewhat hardline view comes from the damage Ive seen it cause amongst teenagers.Love needs to be at the centre of ever childs world without it none of us could  thrive.

I am glad someone has brought up the Lee Hughes situation as a comparison as this is where I am uneasy about this particular example.  There is some controversy because it is a serious sexual offence, and the dominant view seems to be; Evans shouldn't play professional football ever again.  It is serious. And he has been to jail.

So what is the cut off point; what offence or sentence? What about drink driving?  What about manslaughter? Tony Adams? Patrick Kluivert?

If he doesn't play football, can he coach? Manage? Watch? Commentate? Where do you draw the line?

There have been similar many high profile examples; and unless professional football adopts something like american football (see here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League_player_conduct_controversy)
(and maybe they do but nobody is talking about it, so I guess it is disregarded if there is one!), then there'll continue to be confusion and controversy.

My view is that the league should have considered this whilst he was serving his sentence, and tackled the issue for future cases, hoping that there aren't any of this type.

Everyone deserves a second chance. Someone coming out of prison and getting a job and turning their life around is a great example to anyone else who finds themselves in a similar situation.Lee Hughes has done it and his was a much more serious crime IMHO.

On moral reasons, yes, I believe he's served his time, whether the case was questionable or not, I have faith in the system that he has done his time and can/should be integrated back into society. Footballers (for good reason) do not need a police background check.

On business reasons, no way, just look at the circus that follows him now, the turmoil at Sheffield United, I cannot believe they've taken him back in their doors after he broke the law under their employment, he let his club down by even getting into that situation. They've lost sponsors/fans/patrons... It's just not worth it, and right now, if town expressed interest in him I would be concerned about the negative image it would give the club... In a few years, it may be different, but right now it'd be a PR disaster.

The question is - how could he play for any club without causing a problem? Even if his appeal succeeds, even if all the sponsors and patrons come back and agree to him playing, he will be the target of supporters from other clubs and possibly opponents on the field.

My advice to him would be to go abroad to play for at least a couple of seasons while the heat dies off.

Quoted from Rodley Mariner

If she was too drunk to speak and Evans took advantage of her then you don't think that constitutes rape? Like you say, the law does.

If you advocate the 'served his time' argument then presumably you'd feel the same if we signed a released paedophile?

No what I said was if she could not speak how could she say yes to Clayton.?

I also said he would not play for us.

Good player, did the crime served his time end of, give the guy a chance to get his life back if its possible, not here though it would break us

Give him five year's hard labour in the Conference North

Quoted from 75

The 'evidence' against Evans was an utter joke. In fact, the evidence against him was exactly the same as that against our former centre back Clayton Macdonald. For one to be found innocent, the other guilty is ridiculous. The alleged victim was on twitter shortly after the incident claiming she was 'going to win big', she had also cried wolf before. Tons of inconsistencies, IMO it should never have gone to trial, never mind led to a conviction.

I'd welcome his signing but he's well out of our league I'm afraid.

On what basis can you make from that assumption? From what it appears as the court have rules is that she consented to Clayton (who she went back with) and then Ched Evans turns up out of nowhere and thinks he's entitled to do what he wants.

Clearly he's been convicted for a reason and it isn't as straightforward as you are suggesting.

Quoted from davmariner

On what basis can you make from that assumption? From what it appears as the court have rules is that she consented to Clayton (who she went back with) and then Ched Evans turns up out of nowhere and thinks he's entitled to do what he wants.

Clearly he's been convicted for a reason and it isn't as straightforward as you are suggesting.

As far as I know Clayton has always stuck up for Evans and he was there,

Only two people know the truth and they both disagree.

Quoted from LH

Rape victims live with their ordeal. I would class it as seriously as murder.

The family of the man Lee Hughes killed live with the fact their relative was needlessly killed and that he could potentially have been saved had Hughes reported the accident. I do find it fascinating how the country seems to be much more against Evans returning to football to Hughes. Neither have shown remorse (Hughes is a member, Evans claims innocence still) for their heinous crimes yet unless I'm very much mistaken there wasn't this furor around Hughes playing again. Hughes' selfish, stupid and cowardly actions caused a man to lose his life. It wasn't murder but if he wasn't such a twit the man might have survived so it's not far off, how is Evans' crime worse?

For the record, I wouldn't want either of them at Town. Hughes because he's a terrible human being and Evans because of the media circus surrounding him. Though I do believe he has as much right to resume his career as Hughes has been given.

Quoted from mariner91

The family of the man Lee Hughes killed live with the fact their relative was needlessly killed and that he could potentially have been saved had Hughes reported the accident. I do find it fascinating how the country seems to be much more against Evans returning to football to Hughes. Neither have shown remorse (Hughes is a member, Evans claims innocence still) for their heinous crimes yet unless I'm very much mistaken there wasn't this furor around Hughes playing again. Hughes' selfish, stupid and cowardly actions caused a man to lose his life. It wasn't murder but if he wasn't such a twit the man might have survived so it's not far off, how is Evans' crime worse?

For the record, I wouldn't want either of them at Town. Hughes because he's a terrible human being and Evans because of the media circus surrounding him. Though I do believe he has as much right to resume his career as Hughes has been given.

I wasn't disagreeing. Two crimes as serious as each other with as many victims and consequences. I didn't want to say manslaughter was as serious because it is not a deliberate act hence the different charge. Death by dangerous driving can be ambiguous too as you could drive 1,000,000 miles in your lifetime as safe as when you pass your test and make a huge error of judgment and land in jail. Obviously there is a difference once there is alcohol/drugs involved.

Quoted from LH

I wasn't disagreeing. Two crimes as serious as each other with as many victims and consequences. I didn't want to say manslaughter was as serious because it is not a deliberate act hence the different charge. Death by dangerous driving can be ambiguous too as you could drive 1,000,000 miles in your lifetime as safe as when you pass your test and make a huge error of judgment and land in jail. Obviously there is a difference once there is alcohol/drugs involved.

Fair enough. I accept that death by dangerous driving has a broad spectrum of ambiguity, I have a friend who served time for death by dangerous driving. He wasn't a particularly bad driver normally but cut a corner at speed because he was in a rush and killed someone. He felt dreadful about it, apologised to the family of the victim at his trial, pleaded guilty and served his time. But in the case of Hughes, he fled the scene most probably to escape a breath test (though this can't be proven) as he had previously been in trouble for this. So not only was he criminally negligible with his driving (bad enough on it's own) but he let another man die rather than face the consequences of his actions and potentially lose his licence. Absolute scumbag. Which is why I find it so fascinating that people are okay with him coming back but not Evans. A lot of the arguments against Evans are that he'd be a role model and I agree you wouldn't want your child idolising a convicted rapist. But I certainly wouldn't want a child of mine idolising a man who let another man die because he'd rather save his own skin and then shows no remorse for his actions.

It's the nature of Evans conviction that seems to be the issue. I wouldn't welcome him, nor would I welcome Lee Hughes and I certainly don't envy Sheffield United at present, they won't do right whichever way they go. If Ched Evans did a job that had less profile then I'm not sure there would be all this kerfuffle. It's a pretty sad situation on many levels that didn't need the likes of Jess Ennis and Charlie Webster to get involved.

Rape is obviously a terrible terrible crime but having read this

"The trial took place at the Crown Court at Caernarfon in April 2012 before Judge Merfyn Hughes QC and a jury. Evans and McDonald admitted to having sex with the woman, but both denied raping her.[13] Counsel for the prosecution, John Philpotts, stated that the victim, a 19-year-old waitress, was too intoxicated to have consented.[14][15] The court heard that the victim had woken up naked and confused in a double bed with her clothes on the floor and no memory of the incident.[16] Samples taken from the victim at the time showed no alcohol, although the Crown claimed this was due to "elimination".[17] The samples showed traces of cocaine and cannabis, although she denied taking the drugs on the night of the incident.[18] She had drunk two glasses of wine, four double vodkas with lemonade, and a shot of sambuca.[18] As a result, she told police she "felt tipsy but not out of control".[19] The victim claimed to have almost no memory of what happened between leaving a dancing session with friends and waking up the following morning, leading her to believe that her drink had been spiked.[18] The defence stated both men had sex with the woman separately and with her consent, while the prosecution submitted that the pair "targeted" her for sex after she "literally stumbled across their path" and demonstrated herself to be too intoxicated to consent. Two friends of the men were also alleged to have watched and attempted to record the act through a window.[20]"

I feel like the evidence seemed to show that she'd gotten herself into a state where she was completely intoxicated despite saying otherwise, and though it would be wrong for someone to take advantage of that and that would be a crime, I feel like its less of a crime and possibly even a grey area if they had been drinking themselves in a way because if she can be absolved of the responsbility of who she slept with and her lack of judgement why can't they somewhat. I feel like im hashing this but my point is the way the media is treating it and everyone commenting on it like it was a violent crime and it was just what probably happens frequently at clubs every weekend, i've seen girls pushing away men and then kissing them later that night, if they had a better judgement then yeh its a crime but not as serious of a crime as people make out imo seems like a bit of a witch hunt

Im sure they were all under the influence of alcohol and im sure we've  all acted like an idiot when drunk but that doesn't  mean its right if one was to force himself onto someone without consent if that's what happened.  I don't know the full facts but I'm sure it was a stupid mistake that will stay with him for the rest of his life and im sure he won't put himself in that situation again especially whilst he was with someone.  I do think he deserves a second chance especially in something he enjoys and were his talents lie.  Im not sure if he served his full sentence but he did go to jail and as far as im concerned did the/some time.  Paedophiles tend to re-offend im sure Evans will not.  People are making him out to be a monster but the only people who know the answer are those in that room.

Believe it or not someone has just asked the very question on question time.

Am I right in understanding that she has never actually made any accusation of rape?

Quoted from WHYWONTYOULETMESIGNUP

Rape is obviously a terrible terrible crime but having read this

"The trial took place at the Crown Court at Caernarfon in April 2012 before Judge Merfyn Hughes QC and a jury. Evans and McDonald admitted to having sex with the woman, but both denied raping her.[13] Counsel for the prosecution, John Philpotts, stated that the victim, a 19-year-old waitress, was too intoxicated to have consented.[14][15] The court heard that the victim had woken up naked and confused in a double bed with her clothes on the floor and no memory of the incident.[16] Samples taken from the victim at the time showed no alcohol, although the Crown claimed this was due to "elimination".[17] The samples showed traces of cocaine and cannabis, although she denied taking the drugs on the night of the incident.[18] She had drunk two glasses of wine, four double vodkas with lemonade, and a shot of sambuca.[18] As a result, she told police she "felt tipsy but not out of control".[19] The victim claimed to have almost no memory of what happened between leaving a dancing session with friends and waking up the following morning, leading her to believe that her drink had been spiked.[18] The defence stated both men had sex with the woman separately and with her consent, while the prosecution submitted that the pair "targeted" her for sex after she "literally stumbled across their path" and demonstrated herself to be too intoxicated to consent. Two friends of the men were also alleged to have watched and attempted to record the act through a window.[20]"

I feel like the evidence seemed to show that she'd gotten herself into a state where she was completely intoxicated despite saying otherwise, and though it would be wrong for someone to take advantage of that and that would be a crime, I feel like its less of a crime and possibly even a grey area if they had been drinking themselves in a way because if she can be absolved of the responsbility of who she slept with and her lack of judgement why can't they somewhat. I feel like im hashing this but my point is the way the media is treating it and everyone commenting on it like it was a violent crime and it was just what probably happens frequently at clubs every weekend, i've seen girls pushing away men and then kissing them later that night, if they had a better judgement then yeh its a crime but not as serious of a crime as people make out imo seems like a bit of a witch hunt

So someone else could have spike her drink and Evans and McDonald were in the wrong place at the wrong time and got the flack for it. So many strange comments in that statement one min she says she was drunk then the prosecution say she was targeted by stumbling across their path and woke up confused but samples dhow mo alcohol....now im confused.

Quoted from WHYWONTYOULETMESIGNUP

Rape is obviously a terrible terrible crime but having read this

"The trial took place at the Crown Court at Caernarfon in April 2012 before Judge Merfyn Hughes QC and a jury. Evans and McDonald admitted to having sex with the woman, but both denied raping her.[13] Counsel for the prosecution, John Philpotts, stated that the victim, a 19-year-old waitress, was too intoxicated to have consented.[14][15] The court heard that the victim had woken up naked and confused in a double bed with her clothes on the floor and no memory of the incident.[16] Samples taken from the victim at the time showed no alcohol, although the Crown claimed this was due to "elimination".[17] The samples showed traces of cocaine and cannabis, although she denied taking the drugs on the night of the incident.[18] She had drunk two glasses of wine, four double vodkas with lemonade, and a shot of sambuca.[18] As a result, she told police she "felt tipsy but not out of control".[19] The victim claimed to have almost no memory of what happened between leaving a dancing session with friends and waking up the following morning, leading her to believe that her drink had been spiked.[18] The defence stated both men had sex with the woman separately and with her consent, while the prosecution submitted that the pair "targeted" her for sex after she "literally stumbled across their path" and demonstrated herself to be too intoxicated to consent. Two friends of the men were also alleged to have watched and attempted to record the act through a window.[20]"

Source?

If I recall correctly from reading stuff before, Evans hadn't been drinking. Didn't he drive around to meet McDonald and the girl at the room? Either way, it was a pretty distasteful way to behave even if you don't think it was criminal. Evans may claim he was innocent of rape but ultimately he went to prison because of his own dubious actions so he only has himself to blame. If anything, he's incredibly lucky that his missus has stood by him despite the fact he went behind her back for random sex with a stranger.

A few years ago (well, probably 6 or 7), when walking home from a night out in Clee in the early hours, I encountered a lass who was so ridiculously drunk that she could barely stand and was falling around all over the place. What did I do? Well, I certainly didn't think, 'Here's the chance for an easy shag'! She wasn't in any fit state to look after herself so, instead, I tried to help her get home. Admittedly, this was without success as she was so drunk she couldn't tell me where she lived - I spent five minutes half-leading/half-carrying her to the marketplace trying to find some coppers to hand her off to, but she then disappeared off back into one of the pubs as I was trying to find one! Hope she managed to get home OK somehow.

As for the Evans case, on the plus side, perhaps his prison sentence has led to some young footballers realising they can't get away with everything despite the fact that they are young, wealthy and privileged.

Quoted from LH

Rape victims live with their ordeal. I would class it as seriously as murder.

Then that's my point. Family members have to live with the shocking, untimely death of their father/brother. Why is Ched Evans being treat worse than Lee Hughes if it's considered a similar crime, in case of seriousness.
The way how it is being treat is that it appears to be ok to take somebody's life and play football but not be found guilty of rape and play football. Both crimes are serious and maybe should be treat equally.

None of us are in any position to second guess what happened. The fact is a court found him guilty. I would not want I'm at our club, the fallout would be unbearable. Neither would I want Hughes at this club.

I am not suggesting I would want him here, just to clear things up, I'm just putting the argument for him playing football again.

I don't know enough about the case to want to take a guess at whether or not he is guilty.

However, I do think that Sheff Utd are in a position where they can see their Patrons leaving and making a stand, trying to force the club not to re-sign him but at the same time, I bet there are many other clubs waiting in the wings ready with a contract offer.

The world has changed.

Nobody batted an eyelid when we signed Croft. He did time for driving while disqualified, and perverting the course of justice don't forget. There were a few murmurs when we signed previously jailed Liam Hearn but now it seems unlikely we, or any other club, would sign someone who has been in jail. Not sure whether that's progress or not. I agree that those crimes were very different from Ched's but all had the potential to cause harm and ruin people's lives.

Quoted from WHYWONTYOULETMESIGNUP

Rape is obviously a terrible terrible crime but having read this


I feel like the evidence seemed to show that she'd gotten herself into a state where she was completely intoxicated despite saying otherwise, and though it would be wrong for someone to take advantage of that and that would be a crime, I feel like its less of a crime and possibly even a grey area if they had been drinking themselves in a way because if she can be absolved of the responsbility of who she slept with and her lack of judgement why can't they somewhat. I feel like im hashing this but my point is the way the media is treating it and everyone commenting on it like it was a violent crime and it was just what probably happens frequently at clubs every weekend, i've seen girls pushing away men and then kissing them later that night, if they had a better judgement then yeh its a crime but not as serious of a crime as people make out imo seems like a bit of a witch hunt

Good post and raises some valid points. Ive read a load of football autobiographies and the one that stands out when reading your above post is Roy Keanes and I think Gazzas.Women are paid by the press to create a story eg sexually advance on men and then kiss and tell in the Sunday papers. As was the case with some footballers and fair play to them they regret the advances of these women and then the women create a scene for the purpose of selling a story and it appears in the Sunday papers. With hindsight though the pair looking at the above evidence probably did take advantage of this women but on a broader level shows the problems that comes with the territory of being a pro footballer

Quoted from WHYWONTYOULETMESIGNUP

Rape is obviously a terrible terrible crime but having read this

"The trial took place at the Crown Court at Caernarfon in April 2012 before Judge Merfyn Hughes QC and a jury. Evans and McDonald admitted to having sex with the woman, but both denied raping her.[13] Counsel for the prosecution, John Philpotts, stated that the victim, a 19-year-old waitress, was too intoxicated to have consented.[14][15] The court heard that the victim had woken up naked and confused in a double bed with her clothes on the floor and no memory of the incident.[16] Samples taken from the victim at the time showed no alcohol, although the Crown claimed this was due to "elimination".[17] The samples showed traces of cocaine and cannabis, although she denied taking the drugs on the night of the incident.[18] She had drunk two glasses of wine, four double vodkas with lemonade, and a shot of sambuca.[18] As a result, she told police she "felt tipsy but not out of control".[19] The victim claimed to have almost no memory of what happened between leaving a dancing session with friends and waking up the following morning, leading her to believe that her drink had been spiked.[18] The defence stated both men had sex with the woman separately and with her consent, while the prosecution submitted that the pair "targeted" her for sex after she "literally stumbled across their path" and demonstrated herself to be too intoxicated to consent. Two friends of the men were also alleged to have watched and attempted to record the act through a window.[20]"

I feel like the evidence seemed to show that she'd gotten herself into a state where she was completely intoxicated despite saying otherwise, and though it would be wrong for someone to take advantage of that and that would be a crime, I feel like its less of a crime and possibly even a grey area if they had been drinking themselves in a way because if she can be absolved of the responsbility of who she slept with and her lack of judgement why can't they somewhat. I feel like im hashing this but my point is the way the media is treating it and everyone commenting on it like it was a violent crime and it was just what probably happens frequently at clubs every weekend, i've seen girls pushing away men and then kissing them later that night, if they had a better judgement then yeh its a crime but not as serious of a crime as people make out imo seems like a bit of a witch hunt

This has been lifted straight off Wikipedia, a site which anyone can edit and contribute to. Given the campaign backing Evans and his supporters, I would not take anything other than actual court transcripts as reliable evidence.

You cannot lift things of Wikipedia, there´s a reason why it´s not accepted as a valid source in the academic world. Not saying it´s all false, I´m saying it´s not reliable enough to know if it is or not.

Quoted from Codswede

Am I right in understanding that she has never actually made any accusation of rape?

Yeh she initially reported a lost or stolen handbag, she had no memory of anything other than waking up naked there, police must have told her she'd been raped, despite having no memory of it she was the sole witness and only form of evidence, she received a compensation fee afterwards, pretty sure those are the facts, if Evans' crime was that he turned up later to join in then I would agree that it is a crime, but Let's be honest it's quite unlikely a rich footballer with a girlfriend would answer a call from another footballer to go have sex with a completely hammered or unconscious woman, it was proven her drinks hadn't been spiked Aswell after saying she'd drank less than usual, there's got to be more too it in my opinion with the outcome still possibly being a crime or not, but reading the comments of people
Talking about it on Twitter 90% of people haven't got a clue about the case whatsoever and have just heard the word rape when really in my opinion rape should be classed as a forceful act and what they did was take advantage.

Also now people saying there's a problem with misogyny in football which is a joke

Quoted from MarinerWY

This has been lifted straight off Wikipedia, a site which anyone can edit and contribute to. Given the campaign backing Evans and his supporters, I would not take anything other than actual court transcripts as reliable evidence.

You cannot lift things of Wikipedia, there´s a reason why it´s not accepted as a valid source in the academic world. Not saying it´s all false, I´m saying it´s not reliable enough to know if it is or not.

I read about it from other sources at the time the verdict was made, was just the quickest source to quote from

Quoted from WHYWONTYOULETMESIGNUP

I read about it from other sources at the time the verdict was made, was just the quickest source to quote from

The point is I´m not sure it should be quoted as a source, seeing as it is edited and contributed to by anyone who wants to do so. We know there is a well organised campaign in support of Ched Evans, so I really would take a chunk of text from Wikipedia as having no credible value at all.

Fair enough

I agree with those that say it would cause too many problems ,so whatever the moral issues and everyone will have their own views on those I think most clubs will steer clear for now. A clubs name should still mean something and be worth protecting even if the media storm wasn't likely to be so negative.Obviously if he overturns the judgement it becomes another issue,he still showed poor decision making.

Quoted from psgmariner

The world has changed.

Nobody batted an eyelid when we signed Croft. He did time for driving while disqualified, and perverting the course of justice don't forget. There were a few murmurs when we signed previously jailed Liam Hearn but now it seems unlikely we, or any other club, would sign someone who has been in jail. Not sure whether that's progress or not. I agree that those crimes were very different from Ched's but all had the potential to cause harm and ruin people's lives.

Best post of the whole thread IMO.

How 80's sees it...(not often I get into these questions !)

A lot more is made of "role models" we see on TV every day than many years ago.
Bigger they are, more important they become !
All you need to do is get Question Time up on Iplayer and count how many times the panel say "Role model" (I counted 9 !)

I think good behaviour of staff and players is always very important to every club at every level for many reasons.
And agree sponsors certainly see this as an important factor as it will obviously affect them if it affects their product.

But why are "role models" suddenly a lot more important than they were say 50 years ago (in arguably more "moral" times) ?
Are we really to believe fans didn't have their own heroes or favourite footballers way back in the 30's when crowds were far bigger ?

Instead of worshipping the big TV £ multi-million (sports) celebs, just imagine what would happen if communities had their OWN role models like LOCAL footballers... (ideally Shaun Pearson IMO )

OMG suddenly Beckham's new hair cut isn't pulling in £million pounds profit of sales cos they've all turned off the telly FOLLOWING THEIR OWN LOCAL TEAMS ! (and the GTFC sticker idea looks better every day ! )

I'm not condoning Evans or saying he doesn't deserve to show remorse for anything (tbh I haven't a clue about the case !)

But do think "image" (especially on TV) has a lot more to do with money (and tbf ALL clubs need to attract more money) these days.

As a self confessed "role model" herself, whether Jessica Ennis's image would suffer if Ched Evans returned I don't know but it wouldn't suprise me at all.

So I'm not saying being a role model isn't important or a good example doesn't need to be set.
But I don't buy this "role model" malarkey is primarily based on "morals" when there are those who have (partly/fully) paid their due to society and perhaps deserve a 2nd chance..

And tbh, I'm unsure whether Nick Clegg has upstanding moral virtues similar to those of a saint either after student tuition fees.
If the same thing happens to a player at Sheffield FC next week will we see him again on the 6 o clock news ?
Somehow I doubt it...

As Kirsty Williams (Lib Dem) suggested HERSELF on QT, it won't be politicians or Ched Evans who decides, it'll be the sponsors and the big money in football.

Fair play to her, at least being a nice lady she can admit it...

Tbf everyone's a role as am i to my children.

Quoted from 2578

she was fair game that night

Sickening

Quoted from Meza

Tbf everyone's a role as am i to my children.

You're right, you are Meza !

Never said role models weren't important - they are.

More a case of how you define them ?
I'd rather have a role model as a Town player than a Big Prem star.
Why ? Cos while he's in a Town shirt he's a hero (if he does well) for serving MY club.
Should I not care just cos he's not got as much natural ability as say John Terry ?
I mean look at Macca (John McDermott I mean) and how many appearances he notched up.

Maybe there's also a dividing line between "football" and private life ?
George Best for example - great player and icon but overdid the booze.
Alex Higgins - my icon too but same thing + violent.
Old teacher of mine said Higgins was a violent boozer so wasn't someone to admire - he got well cross at me !
I insisted (!) it was ONLY his snooker on the table that made him a hero.

Did I think he was a role model for his private life ? No.
Did I think he was a nice person and someone to look up to as a person ? No.

But put it this way, I'm not gonna start ignoring genius on the green baize just cos of that, sorry I'm not.
And there are no "football clubs" in snooker.

Depends what's important to YOU I suppose. (both maybe)
Just saying "personal life" gets looked at a lot more than it used to.

It's all a "grey area" of individual preference anyway cos ultimately it boils down to the choices of those buying the product. (or not !)

Would most probably be a total media nightmare anyway...
So regretfully (and unfortunately) it's a no from me too.

Quoted from 2578

Just calm yourself down old rodders, let's put things into perspective on here, The way he's being condemned on here you would think he was the kind of psycho hiding down a passageway with a balaclava on his head and a knife in his hand waiting for her.
Having read the evidence I strongly believe he is innocent and I believe he will eventually be found not guilty, I hope you will be man enough to come on here and apologise when this will happen.

What on earth would I have to apologise for?

Quoted from 2578

Just calm yourself down old rodders, let's put things into perspective on here, The way he's being condemned on here you would think he was the kind of psycho hiding down a passageway with a balaclava on his head and a knife in his hand waiting for her.
Having read the evidence I strongly believe he is innocent and I believe he will eventually be found not guilty, I hope you will be man enough to come on here and apologise when this will happen.

The perspective surely is that with Evans we are not at the situation where he is suffering trial by media-before his actual trial. He has been found guilty under the world renowned British justice system of a particularly nasty crime against the person. The condemnation comes for that reason.  Am I right in thinking that he has already appealed once and that was overturned? I haven't read the evidence because my opinion on the case holds no water at all. The jury listened to the evidence including the evidence of the victim and their view was that he was guilty and, as far as the law is concerned that is all that matters. I strongly suspect that if he is eventually found innocent it will almost certainly be due to new evidence coming to light. Presumably at that point his legal team may have some apologising to do....

I've removed a number of posts from this thread as they are totally inappropriate within the context of this site.

Quoted from Theimperialcoroner

I've removed a number of posts from this thread as they are totally inappropriate within the context of this site.

I thought I was going mad....

Quoted from barralad

I thought I was going mad....

Actually.......

Quoted from BIGChris

Actually.......

Christ on a Bike-does a bloody alarm go off when I post something?

" The way he's being condemned on here you would think he was the kind of psycho hiding down a passageway with a balaclava on his head and a knife in his hand waiting for her."

I always thought that was Dave Beasant back in the day ...The Beast in a Balaclava..

Quoted from Theimperialcoroner

I've removed a number of posts from this thread as they are totally inappropriate within the context of this site.

That's 2 things started by the same poster within two days. Is there any follow-up to this? Personally despite finding the poster a horrible individual, I would let it stand - not one for censoring things, I have a huge amount of optimism in that the rest of the forum can prove that said poster's statements are bigoted and without any factual basis. But to simply remove the posts and pretend nothing has happened? Are you therefore:

1. Not tolerating discriminatory posts and removing those users who, like Gim74 persist in posts like these?
or
2. Trying to avoid any "out of acceptability" upset there is on The Fishy. Which to me sounds disingenuous, like you care about some legal reprecusions etc. rather than the morality of the horrendous excrement this individual is posting?

Because for me you either choose one or the other. Either you don't tolerate discriminatory posts, and warn the users that persisit, or you leave the Fishy crowd to dress them down and allow the majority to post a bunch of easily constructed arguments as to why the numptee's hate filled excrement is without reason or sense.

Personally I'm well on the side of free speech. Let em post and let those that disagree show exactly why, and difuse thier arguments. But it's all a bit weird what's happening now, if you're going to continually delete posts in a stand against racism etc. you need to reaffirm in it a forum consititution and ban the persistant offenders.

What now? We repeat every time the geezer posts? Let him post. He's a racist, rape-defending vile individual. But we can also deal with that ourselves, and I've enough faith that 99% of posters on here see what he is without the need for removed posts.

Quoted from MarinerWY

That's 2 things started by the same poster within two days. Is there any follow-up to this? Personally despite finding the poster a horrible individual, I would let it stand - not one for censoring things, I have a huge amount of optimism in that the rest of the forum can prove that said poster's statements are bigoted and without any factual basis. But to simply remove the posts and pretend nothing has happened?

The individual in question can't post any more

Was it Wayne or Rattray again?

Isn't that's what the 'Report' button is used for.  to report users that they don't like the post etc?

Too many discussions on here turn into "who shouts the loudest wins" IMO.
I've been guilty of it myself but would suggest the mainstream media are the worst culprits of all.

I seem to remember Sheff Utd mentioned something about not bowing to "mob justice".  
Many will draw on their own conclusions (i.e. guesses) to draw conclusions (also guesses) about others.
Whether they're correct or not (as already seen with e.g. judicial miscarriages of justice) is another matter.
In any case some may be willing to forgive (after serving a sentence) and some won't.

Quoted from Codswede

I cannot believe they've taken him back in their doors after he broke the law under their employment

Maybe Sheff Utd don't think he's guilty ? Or have forgiven him for putting himself into the situation ?
In any case, ultimately it's THEIR choice what to do now.

Quoted from GrimRob

Everyone deserves a second chance. Someone coming out of prison and getting a job and turning their life around is a great example to anyone else who finds themselves in a similar situation.Lee Hughes has done it and his was a much more serious crime IMHO.

Agree with you Rob.
For me, guilty or not (and like I said have NO idea about the case) he's served his time anyway - already paid the penalty as it were.

Can fully appreciate and understand you and your fellow mods actions BTW Rob.
And thanks again for all your hard work and a great site, it's been a privilege and a pleasure.
However regretfully, I'll be sending you a request to close my 'New fishy' account.
Main reason being I don't fancy any future possibility of being dressed down if I offer opinions others don't agree with.
And who knows what I may be accused of if do.
From that perspective I have sympathy with others who may occasionally feel the same.

Obviously it's entirely my own decision and choice.
But for me, there's little point remaining if I just feel comfortable with it all.
Not that I'll be passing any comments under any psedonym on any other GTFC / Grimsby related on-line platform in the future either.
(or that I have in the past for that matter)
Except perhaps the OS for the occasional match report. (though seems pretty dead these days anyway !)

Thankyou to Mr Fenty, fans, Mariners Trust & all the fishy itself for continuing to steer the GTFC ship, helping keep it afloat and on the right course.

Fingers crossed for promotion,
Best wishes to all & GOOD LUCK !!!

Up The Mariners.
80's.

It's a shame you will not be posting anymore 80's I quite enjoy reading your posts, i maybe not agree with everything you post but I feel you are a good contributor to the fishy and have made some excellent points over the years.

Hope you do come back mate.

Thanks I really appreciate that !

Nothing against the fishy or anyone else, it's just me.

Have sent you a PM requesting my account closure Les / Rob...
So if you could I'd appreciate it.
Thankyou.

Just sent you and Les an e-mail too.
I'll log out....

Looking forward to your team for Saturday's game, 80s

They're often wrong anyway, don't think you're missing out on much.

Are you there Rob ?

Yep have tried to remove "80sglory" user myself.
Says "Only administrators may delete users on this forum."

If you could let me know the situation I'd appreciate it.

Better than the match this!

Wow.  Please be true to your word 80s.  You've managed to take a serious thread about a serious moral dilemma and turn the focus on yourself. Incredible.

In true 80s fashion, it's a long winded process to leave the fishy.  

Mods have disappeared...

At the end of the day....
I can guarantee 100% it won't be ME posting after I log out (by no later than 4am tomorrow morning).

Rob / mods...
I kindly and strongly suggest you
1) reply to me on here (or by email)
2) close the "80sglory" account asap and just ditch it please.

I'm not that happy about the prospect of my account being "regenerated" and being used by someone else.
I do have screenshots.

If you're concerned then god know why you should be.
Footballs not the be all and end all.
Certainly not the most important thing in life anyway.
I can do without all the wasted time, hassle and day in day out rudeness too.
Only came back to try and help anyway !  
Not taking credit but when I returned we were in the shtook and now we're back on track.
So arguably my work is done...
Please ?

Quoted from LH

In true 80s fashion, it's a long winded process to leave the fishy.  

Maybe you should blame the mods then.
I can see they're online.

Hagrid you there mate ?

Only Rob has the power to delete an account.

Hallelujah !
Thanks Les.
Is he online do you know ?

Oh I see he's not.
I saw he was before.

Funny I'm leaving and still getting red crosses anyway.

Why not just log out and let Rob deal with it later?

Are you back now Rob ?

Thanks for answering Les, was just about to.

I'd just like some reply from Rob that he will close my account and not re-use 80sglory. (and very much doubt it would be of any use to anyone anyway)
If that's not too much to ask of course...

Quoted from 120797

Not taking credit but when I returned we were in the shtook and now we're back on track.
So arguably my work is done...
Please ?

80's please tell me you're not actually crediting yourself with the reversal of our fortunes?

As I said, I'm not taking credit for the reversal of our fortunes.

Quoted from mariner91

80's please tell me you're not actually crediting yourself with the reversal of our fortunes?

Ignore him and cut off the oxygen of attention on which he thrives.

I'm struggling with why there's the outcry there has been over Evans but not about Lee Hughes. That struck me today when I read CA's diary. As serious as rape is, is it worse than killing someone? Doesn't ruining the lives of Hughes victims family count for as much?

Also, setting aside whether the sentence he's served is enough, Evans has done the time so shouldn't he be rehabilitated? I understand the commercial points Big Chris made, but purely on principle should someone be written off for the rest of his life?