Prepare yourself for big, but possibly short term, job losses. Big companies will hold back spending as they wait to see what happens in next 2/5 years. If they don't spend then some firms will have vastly reduced work which means staff will be let go.
I voted leave though in truth thought it would have swung to remain albeit very tight eg as according to the last polls done before the vote though.Pleased though we are out.More control now about how we govern things
The Pounds value against the dollar has already plummeted.
I love my country and even though I like the idea of an independent UK, I just think it was too scary a prospect (for me)to leave. I just hope my fears don't become a reality, time will tell.
The markets predicted this would happen if the "leave" campaign won the vote, this isn't news at all. They said it would dip but recover soon after. So stop with the Bull as your just clutching at straws. You lost the vote, get over it.
I blocked seeing red ticks years ago so go ahead If I don't reply to you then i didn't read your replies
Enjoy a life of financial instability, you've earned it! Idiot.
You serious ? Look at the pros and cons and then make your mind up.Calling someone a idiot is a bit low.Have a bit of respect and treat people right you peanut
You serious ? Look at the pros and cons and then make your mind up.Calling someone a idiot is a bit low.Have a bit of respect and treat people right you peanut
You serious ? Look at the pros and cons and then make your mind up.Calling someone a idiot is a bit low have a bit of respect and treat people right you peanut
Well at least the eu cant hold us to ransom anymore.
As for job losses scaremongering , its pathetic no one knows exactly what will happen and i was prepared to take a risk to improve our country because in my eyes it cant be any worse.
What pisses me off the most is that basically what we're saying is we think we're better than everyone else, and we both don't need their help, nor do we want to help anyone else. That isn't the British way as far as I'm concerned. I don't identify myself as that person.
I think we're going to find very quickly that the rest of the world doesn't give one excrement about us, and when Scotland re-vote to leave the UK (which is clearly going to happen looking at how they voted to remain in the EU) as well and in fact the whole of the United Kingdom becomes fractured, we'll find ourselves standing very alone.
You mean tighter immigration plus being able to control our borders , better trade deals and not being bent over and shafted up the bottom by the eu in thanks for the billions we send them every year then i look forward to it mal.
I hope that all the referendum news on TV doesn't mean Jeremy Kyle isn't on today or there's going to be a lot of screaming by a large chunk of the brexiters
You mean tighter immigration being able to control our borders , better trade deals and not being bent over and shafted up the bottom by the eu in thanks for the billions we send them every year then i look forward to it mal.
Northern Europe is going to really give a s.hit about stopping migrants now aren't they ? They'll be giving them a cuppa and custard cream for the journey.
We're not out of the EU yet. It will take years before exit can be negotiated, then years to agree new trade deals, then years to reorganise our legal system and recreate the laws and regulations required in a modern country.
As predicted by pretty much everyone with any economic or political insight, this will lead to years of uncertainty and the economic damage to our country during this time will be catastrophic. Recession within a year, almost certainly and that will just be the start.
If you voted leave, have a European holiday booked and haven't already bought your Euros, it has started to cost you already, you pillocks.
So it's goodbye EU, goodbye the Union (Scotland will be independent within a few years) and hello recession. Oh, and perhaps a united Ireland in the not too distant future as they strongly voted remain. The English have abandoned them, so why shouldn't they go, though I reckon the troubles will be in full-swing once again pretty quickly.
More scaremongering maringer based on no truth whatsoever.
How do you know we will have a recession?
We have paved the way for more countries to be free from the rules set by the eu, netherlands and denmark also want to leave so expect more countries to follow us yet again as we set the example of having the balls to do it.
More scaremongering maringer based on no truth whatsoever.
How do you know we will have a recession?
We have paved the way for more countries to be free from the rules set by the eu, netherlands and denmark also want to leave so expect more countries to follow us yet again as we set the example of having the balls to do it.
The future is uncertain. That usually spells recession! The economy isn't exactly booming as it is.
The only reason we've had any sort of a recovery since 2010 is due to the increase in immigration and property prices being pumped up further in the south east by foreign investors. GDP per capita is about the same now as it was in 2008 so that's already 7 years of lost growth. As the collapse in the value of the pound (already down to levels not seen since 1985) has already shown, capital flight is all but inevitable, especially when the continuing property bubble pops. Once the levels of immigration are cut, we'll be facing a skills and labour shortage which will further damage the economy. The fall in the pound means that imports will cost us more immediately. Your supermarket shop will be going up in price very quickly as we are net importers of food. Everything will cost more and don't forget we have a massive current account deficit - this means we import a lot more than we export so general purchases will go up in cost.
All the major economic bodies and well over 90% of economists agree that this vote will damage the economy. Standard economic theory shows that this will damage the economy. Why on earth do you think any different? Haven't you been following the news?
So Farage has admitted the £350m saved going to the NHS isn't actually true.
Why are people surprised? The leave campaign was built on an out an out lie, a lot of people don't even know what on earth they've just voted for.
Both campaigns were built on lies, scares half truths and exaggeration. No one knows what we've voted for but no one knew if we stayed either. Cameron has made dodging questions a art form and people have seen through him . His renegotiation was a joke, both he and Europe mistook how much austerity us affecting working people. With a city's worth of people coming in every year the government have failed to build the houses and invest in the social services to cope and have reaped the reward.
Assuming the EU remains as is (our biggest hope now maybe that it disinergrates) we will need to go back to them to renegotiate our trade deals. That will mean still being part of the single market and the EEA.
1. To be part of that you have to abide by the freedom of movement rules. So you still won't be able to stop or even control immigration anymore than you already do. The leave campaign often held up the likes of Norway and Switzerland as examples of how you can operate outside the EU while maintaining trade deals. Both had to sign up to freedom of movement rules and both have more immigration than the UK.
2. I doubt we will be able to negotiate deals as good as what we had as part of the EU. Why should they let us? We have just withdrawn out membership and taken our money with us. What reason to they have to allow us those same trade deals. They will also now want to make an example of us so it doesn't look like the easy choice is to leave, so the rest of europe is deterred from following suit.
More scaremongering maringer based on no truth whatsoever.
How do you know we will have a recession?
We have paved the way for more countries to be free from the rules set by the eu, netherlands and denmark also want to leave so expect more countries to follow us yet again as we set the example of having the balls to do it.
The pound is at it's lowest since the early 1970's and is falling.
In the first 10 minutes of trading an 122 billion has been written of the value of shares on the stock exchange.
It wasn't scaremongering you were hearing it was warnings.
So Farage has admitted the £350m saved going to the NHS isn't actually true.
Thought that was Boris? Either way they were onto a loser picking that stat, it's become a vague and useless point that sums up the muddled approach from both sides.
Which is odd as there are many EU measures that are equally alarming and true, finding out just a fortnight a go that the EU office is moved once a month every month to Strasbourg, lorries loaded with office paperwork and computers, special trains laid on for all the workers just to do 4 days work in Strasbourg before the lorries are re-loaded and the workers all travel back to Brussels is just one fact that angers and annoys the hell out of normal people and very likely tipped a few into the LEAVE camp. A European party is a sound idea, but what we have in reality in the current EU is an abhorrent, rotten and corrupt service that has driven people away in droves. IN or OUT...neither was a very good solution to the actual problem
Note that the austerity you mention was in no way down to the EU. It was a Tory/coalition policy which began in 2010 and mystifyingly got the Tories elected again in 2015. How the EU gets the blame for this, I don't know.
As I noted the other week in that long thread on the other forum, most of the issues which the Leave campaign were arguing about were actually caused by the policies of our own government! The disconnect between reality and this referendum result is just incredible.
I suppose that's what happens when the bulk of the media is owned by right-wing non-doms and foreign owners - they can push their agenda on the public and the BBC has singularly failed to do its job by failing to point out the disparities in truth and fact between the two campaigns.
I watch European news , other countries have been watching closely. I have just watched Dutch tv , they too want out , Denmark Italy sweden , things aren't all bright and smells of roses over there . We are all in unchartered territory, nobody knows . The EU isn't now what we signed up to and needed reform . This has been a true democratic vote , winners and loosers.
Well at least the eu cant hold us to ransom anymore.
As for job losses scaremongering , its pathetic no one knows exactly what will happen and i was prepared to take a risk to improve our country because in my eyes it cant be any worse.
Isn't is scary that the young generation 18 - 40 voted for 'remain' in majority, but the older generation voted for 'out' in majority ?? The older people have stolen the young generations future ...
However, being a german I am an outsider in this decision, but I fear it was a huge mistake for Britain and for Europe ...
If we want the world to be a better place we need to be working with other countries to make it better, not seperating ourselves from others. To me, this just shows the selfish nature of British society, the fact we had to have everything our own way.
And that comment that our country couldn't get much worse. I cringed at that. Try going to 99% of the other countries in the world and then you might realise how good the British people have got it.
And that comment that our country couldn't get much worse. I cringed at that. Try going to 99% of the other countries in the world and then you might realise how good the British people have got it.
Indeed. Wouldn't the tories love to turn us into America now with prescious little in the way of a safety net and an economy where people are totally at the mercy of corporate fatcats. Low paid workers who voted leave will soon have that turkey voted for Christmas realisation
Note that the austerity you mention was in no way down to the EU. It was a Tory/coalition policy which began in 2010 and mystifyingly got the Tories elected again in 2015. How the EU gets the blame for this, I don't know.
As I noted the other week in that long thread on the other forum, most of the issues which the Leave campaign were arguing about were actually caused by the policies of our own government! The disconnect between reality and this referendum result is just incredible.
I suppose that's what happens when the bulk of the media is owned by right-wing non-doms and foreign owners - they can push their agenda on the public and the BBC has singularly failed to do itsEurope y failing to point out the disparities in truth and fact between the two campaigns.
I am not talking only about the austerity here which has cut services while the population rises but that forced on the southern European countries by the EU . 50 to 60% youth unemployment in Greece, these have to look at moving either here or northern Europe. EU leadership has moved too far to the right and is looking after big business . On the BBC they stopped challenging blatent lies a long time ago, it will probably be Corbyns fault by tomorrow. The remain campaign has lost this election rather than the leave winning it. I am a supporter of EU but it has forgotten its poor and is about business, in theory a better economy means everyone is better off in practice all this cheap labour means it is only bosses who benefit
Codcheeky, you're quite right about the disgraceful behaviour of the EU towards the PIIGS countries, Greece in particular. It is the one thing which led me to doubt which way I would vote the other year.
However, this referendum was about the UK. I'd guess that a tiny fraction of a percentage of voters went Leave due to the actions of the EU in southern Europe. Self-interest should have led us to vote remain, but the electorate hasn't just given themselves both barrels in the foot, they've reloaded and done it again!
I shudder to think what sort of an exit plan we will end up with when you've got a post-truth leadership of the Tories such as the liar Johnson and the idiot Gove. Good Lord, we're going to end up with Fox and IDS back in government again with Farage - someone who has stolen a living from the EU for years - helping to steer the debate. The mind boggles as to how much worse than the already terrible Cameron and Osborne this bunch will end being.
Codcheeky, you're quite right about the disgraceful behaviour of the EU towards the PIIGS countries, Greece in particular. It is the one thing which led me to doubt which way I would vote the other year.
However, this referendum was about the UK. I'd guess that a tiny fraction of a percentage of voters went Leave due to the actions of the EU in southern Europe. Self-interest should have led us to vote remain, but the electorate hasn't just given themselves both barrels in the foot, they've reloaded and done it again!
I shudder to think what sort of an exit plan we will end up with when you've got a post-truth leadership of the Tories such as the liar Johnson and the idiot Gove. Good Lord, we're going to end up with Fox and IDS back in government again with Farage - someone who has stolen a living from the EU for years - helping to steer the debate. The mind boggles as to how much worse than the already terrible Cameron and Osborne this bunch will end being.
My fears too, it has left the country completely divided with a scary bunch of people in power
it looks very much like it's the working classes and northerners who have really voted for this, and unfortunately it's going to be them who suffer first when the the job losses and factory closures start kicking in.
btw - banks already starting to talk about moving staff from the UK and into Europe. that means less payroll taxes and business taxes coming into the coffers. companies will not be making investment decisions, they won't be buying new equipment etc and slowly but surely the economy slows down , jobs are lost, less taxes come in and more is spent on benefits. but at least we won't have immigrants coming in, so that makes it all worth while.hurray!
When I woke my wife up this morning with a cup od tea,
I said " its a double whammy "
We are out and Cameron has resigned
Her reply was " Hooray " !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I fear you don't know the damage you have done for the young people of this country. All we need now is Boris Johnson in charge and we are well and truly fooked. Sad day for me and i'm a little embarrassed that people from my area voted overwhelmingly for xenophobia, when most of them couldn't spell it, never mind know what it means. Bet most of them couldn't point to Brussels on a map.
I fear you don't know the damage you have done for the young people of this country. All we need now is Boris Johnson in charge and we are well and truly fooked. Sad day for me and i'm a little embarrassed that people from my area voted overwhelmingly for xenophobia, when most of them couldn't spell it, never mind know what it means. Bet most of them couldn't point to Brussels on a map.
You are welcome to your opinion Ginny,
In a few years time you will be saying , what a great move it was leaving the EU.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
I wonder how many of these "out" people are thinking 'I f**ked up' although they'll never admit it.
I wonder just how many of these remain guys have just had the carpet pulled out from under themselves unexpectetly. The remain guys seem shocked that this had happened, like they've been living in a dream world fantasy land.
it looks very much like it's the working classes and northerners who have really voted for this, and unfortunately it's going to be them who suffer first when the the job losses and factory closures start kicking in.
btw - banks already starting to talk about moving staff from the UK and into Europe. that means less payroll taxes and business taxes coming into the coffers. companies will not be making investment decisions, they won't be buying new equipment etc and slowly but surely the economy slows down , jobs are lost, less taxes come in and more is spent on benefits. but at least we won't have immigrants coming in, so that makes it all worth while.hurray!
Less jobs, but no more immigration to take the fewer jobs out there. Equals itself out
Not when you haven't got anybody willing to work on the farms, picking the fruit and veg.
Not to mention the fact that there will be fewer jobs available as the economy shrinks in the first place. I really don't think most people have a clue just how precarious the state of our economy is at the moment. Unfortunately, they are likely to find out soon.
I fear you don't know the damage you have done for the young people of this country. All we need now is Boris Johnson in charge and we are well and truly fooked. Sad day for me and i'm a little embarrassed that people from my area voted overwhelmingly for xenophobia, when most of them couldn't spell it, never mind know what it means. Bet most of them couldn't point to Brussels on a map.
Just because you didn't get the result you wanted doesn't mean you should just claim the majority of the people that voted are suffering from xenophobia. I read your kneejerk comments as saying that everyone who voted to Leave is a xenophobe. I find that claim insulting. I know this result has prob shocked, surprised and prob even scared you. Take a deep breath give it a few days for the news to sink in and for the dust to settle, then come back rational and calm.
Not when you haven't got anybody willing to work on the farms, picking the fruit and veg.
Not to mention the fact that there will be fewer jobs available as the economy shrinks in the first place. I really don't think most people have a clue just how precarious the state of our economy is at the moment. Unfortunately, they are likely to find out soon.
If there's nobody to work on the land, farmers will have to offer a decent living wage that brits will do it for, instead of the government handing out tax credits to the underpaid. Yes, prices will go up but the government tax take from wages will go down.
Even with companies like Tesco who's staff make their money up to a living wage by claiming tax credits. And staff wanting a living wage being undercut by EU nationals.
it looks very much like it's the working classes and northerners who have really voted for this, and unfortunately it's going to be them who suffer first when the the job losses and factory closures start kicking in.
btw - banks already starting to talk about moving staff from the UK and into Europe. that means less payroll taxes and business taxes coming into the coffers. companies will not be making investment decisions, they won't be buying new equipment etc and slowly but surely the economy slows down , jobs are lost, less taxes come in and more is spent on benefits. but at least we won't have immigrants coming in, so that makes it all worth while.hurray!
If these big London-based multinational banks are threatening to pull out, let them.
I hope (dream?) we can start manufacturing things in this Country again, with British companies spread across the country instead of London sucking in all the wealth, being held to ransom by London multinationals, and less reliant on cheap imports of trainers from China, cheap imported steel flooding the market etc. Pipe dream? I don't know..
If these big London-based multinational banks are threatening to pull out, let them.
I hope (dream?) we can start manufacturing things in this Country again, with British companies spread across the country instead of London sucking in all the wealth, being held to ransom by London multinationals, and less reliant on cheap imports of trainers from China, cheap imported steel flooding the market etc. Pipe dream? I don't know..
So what sort of things are you going to start making then? the raw materials will be imported for the manufacturing so, with the collapse of the pound, will be 5-10% more expensive than yesterday.you've already mentioned about raising wage levels so the goods that are produced become even more expensive, even before you've added the tariffs that will be imposed by the countries you're trying to sell the goods to. you might not like it but financial services basically keep this country afloat. they start pulling out and we will be in even more trouble than we already are
I will never say this was a good decision, 75%. Say it again 75% of 18-24 years olds, including myself, voted to remain in the EU. This is my future, and we have left through votes of those these decisions wont affect. Its a democracy, but that isnt fair, the young have been well and truly shafted, again!! Its an uncertain time, very worrying, and all i can say is i hope your dam flipping proud of yourselves
If these big London-based multinational banks are threatening to pull out, let them.
I hope (dream?) we can start manufacturing things in this Country again, with British companies spread across the country instead of London sucking in all the wealth, being held to ransom by London multinationals, and less reliant on cheap imports of trainers from China, cheap imported steel flooding the market etc. Pipe dream? I don't know..
The Banks and the staff they employ make a huge contribution to this country's tax take. Even if a couple of them move to Europe or the Far East it will have a big impact on jobs and our ability to deliver services.
I fear it is a pipe dream. Where is all this magic and currently dormant manufacturing going to come from. Why would people invest here rather than in the EU for example? You might get some thriving small businesses which would be great but to fill the hole left by organisations leaving? I'd say that's unlikely.
On a separate point, I wouldn't call all leavers xenophobes. There may be a small minority that are but on the whole I think that people voted because of a specific issue that was close to their hearts, be that immigration, democracy or something else. My issue with this is that most of the ones I spoke to and some on here, were either labouring under false assumptions (or facts) like the £350m lie or had a perception that couldn't be changed by actual facts. There was a huge amount of misinformation spread by both sides which was unhelpful and confused people.
Basically, the politicians on both sides have failed this country, both during the campaign and in the many years before it. We are all likely to suffer some discomfort in the short term and we'll never know whether the world, in the long term, would have been better with us in.
I love my country but right now I'm pretty disillusioned with it. I'm sure when the dust settles things might seem different but for now I feel like we've walked straight into the world's first Idiocracy where experts are replaced with ignorance and lies.
you might not like it but financial services basically keep this country afloat. they start pulling out and we will be in even more trouble than we already are
Also, the most subsidised industry in British history - hundreds of billions of taxpayer's money has been spent propping up the City of London, and tens of billions a year of our money continues to be spent this way. A quick google search will tell you the sums involved, eye-watering.
The City might not like this, but their shiny offices and big salaries are dependent on the state. London benefits from a massive subsidy that the rest of the country can only dream of.
Have a bit of faith in your own country we will be better of you wait and see.
Sore losers?! The decision isnt going to impact on your life is it!! Its going to have the biggest impact on the young who didnt want to leave the EU! Tell me Pete, wheres the right in that? As if it wasnt hard enough to take your first steps on the property ladder, or try build a family with already low wages for young workers, we now suffer the injustice of a decison 3 quarters of young voters didnt vote for. Sore losers no, sufferes oh god yes
Wow, there's a fair bit of shock and rage on this thread. A lot of people who voted for both sides really didn’t see this coming.
The strong Brexit vote in areas that economically have been left behind in the last 30 years (including GY) swung it. This is no coincidence….there is much for the establishment to ponder, especially the Labour Party.
To those who voted leave: politicians have oversold their ability to transform your lives and it will take years for any reforms to take effect. Farage and the nutters around him are definitely not the answer – the future PM and government must focus on unity (48% of people voted not to leave the EU) and good relations with Europe (as distinct from being fixed on an EU federalist fast track) are a must.
To those who voted remain: don’t swallow the hysteria being peddled this morning. I’m surprised that so many are shocked by the result (didn’t you think this outcome might happen?), but in the last few hours I’ve heard a lot Remain people claiming to respect ‘Leave’ voters, only to then lose their rag over the result completely in child-like fashion - not a good look. But it’s good to hear some key Remain voices wanting to play a part in securing a sensible post-Brexit settlement for the UK, this is what's needed.
I voted for Brexit. Six months ago I would have voted differently. But I reluctantly decided that our future wasn’t best served by the status quo - ie. a dysfunctional EU that is beyond reform, hopeless at tackling the major issues of our time, works more in the interests of big business than people and encourages social dumping.
If there's nobody to work on the land, farmers will have to offer a decent living wage that brits will do it for, instead of the government handing out tax credits to the underpaid. Yes, prices will go up but the government tax take from wages will go down.
Even with companies like Tesco who's staff make their money up to a living wage by claiming tax credits. And staff wanting a living wage being undercut by EU nationals.
Quoted from Robocod
Working the land is back breaking work, pay enough wages and you'll get workers locally.
You say these things as if they are EU issues. They aren't they are UK issues. Just because we are no longer part of the EU doesn't mean Tesco will up there wages and seasonal fruit pickers will get a rise. How about those Brits get out and earn their money instead of excepting hand outs from the state, rather than say it doesn't pay enough for me? If you haven't got a job...
Wow, there's a fair bit of shock and rage on this thread. A lot of people who voted for both sides really didn’t see this coming.
The strong Brexit vote in areas that economically have been left behind in the last 30 years (including GY) swung it. This is no coincidence….there is much for the establishment to ponder, especially the Labour Party.
To those who voted leave: politicians have oversold their ability to transform your lives and it will take years for any reforms to take effect. Farage and the nutters around him are definitely not the answer – the future PM and government must focus on unity (48% of people voted not to leave the EU) and good relations with Europe (as distinct from being fixed on an EU federalist fast track) are a must.
To those who voted remain: don’t swallow the hysteria being peddled this morning. I’m surprised that so many are shocked by the result (didn’t you think this outcome might happen?), but in the last few hours I’ve heard a lot Remain people claiming to respect ‘Leave’ voters, only to then lose their rag over the result completely in child-like fashion - not a good look. But it’s good to hear some key Remain voices wanting to play a part in securing a sensible post-Brexit settlement for the UK, this is what's needed.
I voted for Brexit. Six months ago I would have voted differently. But I reluctantly decided that our future wasn’t best served by the status quo - ie. a dysfunctional EU that is beyond reform, hopeless at tackling the major issues of our time, works more in the interests of big business than people and encourages social dumping.
JAMES - this has all the hallmarks of a complete ballsup. there are so many implications that nobody has thought of . take fishing , yeah we can impose our own fishing boundaries, but what if we need to go fishing in other waters? who's going to police our waters? we've only got a couple of patrol boats. who's going do all this fishing? we haven't got a fleet left. what's going to happen to agriculture? Many farmers depend greatly on the CAP. what happens if and when Scotland leaves? What do we do about the border with Eire? What are the implications for Northern Ireland and particularly Gibraltar? How are we going to maintain our position as a financial capital of the world? What happens to the thousands of OAP's living in Spain? What happens to Education, the NHS , social services etc when the inevitable cuts following a recession are imposed?
Again not because of the EU but because of UK goverments.
It's partly because of EU enabling capital and labour to move freely within its boundaries. So manufacturing industry has migrated from the UK to Eastern Europe, where wages are far lower
With horrible timing, the other half's friend was told last week that she is being made redundant. She works in the back office for a major UK travel agency. The company is moving many of its back office functions to Romania, no joke.
I will never say this was a good decision, 75%. Say it again 75% of 18-24 years olds, including myself, voted to remain in the EU. This is my future, and we have left through votes of those these decisions wont affect. Its a democracy, but that isnt fair, the young have been well and truly shafted, again!! Its an uncertain time, very worrying, and all i can say is i hope your dam flipping proud of yourselves
Britain will be back at some point. After Scotland rejoins in a few years time and the EU, which is only a young institution, sorts some of its teething problems out, we'll be back, cap in hand, wanting to join up again. You just need to wait for the Daily Mail generation to die off.
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
You say these things as if they are EU issues. They aren't they are UK issues. Just because we are no longer part of the EU doesn't mean Tesco will up there wages and seasonal fruit pickers will get a rise. How about those Brits get out and earn their money instead of excepting hand outs from the state, rather than say it doesn't pay enough for me? If you haven't got a job...
You're getting perilously close to 'The English won't pick spuds, too lazy' so, as someone who's recently dealt with these matters and has seen first hand how this works and the money/bias involved I'm going to bow out. But for someone who's going around accusing people of ignorance you seem to be wrapped up in your own little ignorant world.
It's partly because of EU enabling capital and labour to move freely within its boundaries. So manufacturing industry has migrated from the UK to Eastern Europe, where wages are far lower
The manufacturing industry was moving from this country long before the EU was even in force.
JAMES - this has all the hallmarks of a complete ballsup. there are so many implications that nobody has thought of . take fishing , yeah we can impose our own fishing boundaries, but what if we need to go fishing in other waters? who's going to police our waters? we've only got a couple of patrol boats. who's going do all this fishing? we haven't got a fleet left. what's going to happen to agriculture? Many farmers depend greatly on the CAP. what happens if and when Scotland leaves? What do we do about the border with Eire? What are the implications for Northern Ireland and particularly Gibraltar? How are we going to maintain our position as a financial capital of the world? What happens to the thousands of OAP's living in Spain? What happens to Education, the NHS , social services etc when the inevitable cuts following a recession are imposed?
It'll take a while to work through. I'm not an expert and won't pretend to have all the answers, but here goes...
Fishing - UK territorial waters would include the bulk of Europe's most productive grounds. Norway and Russia (definitely not allies) manage the Barents Sea well enough between them - sustainable cod quota just under 1 million tonnes last time I looked (20x North Sea). Why do we need to be part of the EU to manage our own fishing grounds? We can work in collaboration with the EU to set quotas in areas like the North Sea. This already happens but it's the EU that negotiates with Norway in the Northern North Sea (for example), not the UK. Reciprocal access agreements would remain. We do have a fleet left and it will grow - the money these days is in catching fish (subject to quota), not processing. The priority is to allow the fleet to survive - hard to do when (for example) the largest fishing effort in the Bristol Channel is by Belgian trawlers, not Welsh, Irish or English. The UK is already responsible for patrolling and enforcing quotas and other regulations within its waters, in accordance with EU rules
Scotland - arguably one of the trickiest issues. SNP got the result they wanted last night to pursue independence. Personally I've never been much bothered about Scottish independence but I recognise others will be
NI - majority still want to be in the UK. Even during the troubles (and pre-EU), access and trade across the border was strong and will continue to be so
Farmers - UK subsidies to replace CAP. Most young farmers voted Brexit - CAP favours the bigger and richer operators, so I'm told
Financial services - massive subsidy, public policy skewed towards it for so long creating massive imbalance in UK economy that has resulted in results like last night. As London Mayor, Boris was fierce in defending the sector and would do so again, but I'm realistic enough to expect some movement towards Frankfurt etc
I could chuck loads of questions back but I'm not angry or into mammary-for-tat. Neither vote in this referendum presents perfect options. I decided that the least bad option was Brexit
Who knew it, turkeys do actually vote for Christmas!
Younger people voted overwhelmingly to remain. And so it looks like the older generations have swung this in Leave's favour due to their latent xenophobia. The people for whom this vote mattered the least have swung it off their own bloated sense of nationalistic self importance. Way to go pops!
And isn't it funny how a lot of people who voted leave are the same kind of people who make the most commotion when Argentina pipe up about The Falklands or Spain make noises about Gibraltar. Yet now they've left Gibraltar out to dry, seemingly without a care.
Have a bit of faith in your own country we will be better of you wait and see.
Oh well if you say it's going to be alright, despite the overwhelming predictions from experts that it won't be, with no evidence of your own that it will be and no response to the myriad of problems we're going to face which have been articulately put across by more knowledgeable posters on here then that's fine then.
Hagrid was right. The older generation, such as yourself Pete, and I'm not meaning to pick entirely on you but you're the one on this thread who has made a comment which sums it up, have shafted my generation. Your (generations)belief that it will be alright despite the predictions by independent experts that it won't be is so infuriating. It encapsulates the fact that our population is leaning towards an anti-intellectual consensus summed up by Gove when he said we're "fed up of listening to experts". Well if we're not going to listen to the experts then who the fuck are we meant to listen to? How stupid must we look to the rest of the world?! From their neutral, objective stance they've seen us vote against what is commonly thought to be the best way forward which, unfortunately for them, will also impact their economies to some degree.
Your generation had cheap housing, free education, social mobility, an economy on the up and the ability to manufacture things. We've got none of that. We must be the first generation in history that is significantly worse off than the generation that left before. I hope you're all proud. And why have you sold us down the river? Because, and I quote "you can't walk 50 yards in the town without hearing a foreign language", you said that in the discussion further on the other forum. Well bra-fucking-vo, we're all very grateful that your inwards looking, xenophobic attitude came before our future prosperity. The worst thing about the over 65s clinching the Leave win is that you won't even be around to face the consequences for too long and you're all retired so won't have to suffer the hardships it's going to bring as much. Your generation got wealthy off the back of the EU. Before joining our economy was the slowest growing out of the G7 countries, it grew the quickest once we were a member. But that is something you've all denied our generation now.
Both sides in this referendum have been utterly awful. But the amount of lies, fear mongering and xenophobia from the Leave campaign has been disgusting. Even today, I have had people argue with me that we'll have £350 million a week to spend now despite the fact that many independents have shown this to be nowhere near the case. They plastered it on their bus for fuck sake and kept it even when they proved to be liars.
This referendum should have never have taken place. An issue as complex and emotive as this should have been made by the people who are elected to understand the impact a decision could have and are there to make the important decisions for us. It is extremely telling that one of the biggest differences between Remain and Leave voters is level of education and I'm sorry to say it, but that is a downside to democracy; the stupid get as much say as the intelligent. I think it was John Stuart Mill who suggested that the higher educated you are the more weight your vote should carry and certainly with something like this, where a lot of people seem to have literally no clue about the ramifications, it should have been that way.
I saw a post doing the round on social media and it struck a chord because it's very true: "A quick note on the first three tragedies. Firstly, it was the working classes who voted for us to leave because they were economically disregarded and it is they who will suffer most in the short term from the dearth of jobs and investment. They have merely swapped one distant and unreachable elite for another one. Secondly, the younger generation has lost the right live and work in 27 other countries. We will never know the full extent of the lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences we will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by our parents, uncles and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debt of our predecessors. Thirdly and perhaps most signifcantly, we now live in a post-factual democracy. When the facts met the myths they were as useless as bullets bouncing off the bodies of aliens in a HG Wells novel. When Michael Gove said "the British people are sick of experts" he was right. But can anybody tell me the last time a prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism has lead to anything other than bigotry?"
A great and pertinent post from someone who, like myself, will now suffer thanks to other generations. I am fortunate in that the qualification I'm studying for will still enable me to work in many other countries relatively easily should I choose to. The majority are not so lucky.
Scotland will leave now and the UK will break up. That will further impact the economy and be a real ballache to sort out, not to mention expensive. A dark, dark day in our history.
james - i hope you're right but i see all sorts of holes. for example how are you going to afford farming subsidies in a recession? how are you going to police a 200 mile territorial waters fishing zone with 2 or 3 patrol boats? however the scariest thing is that even the experts admit that they don't know what is going to happen. that for politicians and experts is incredible. economists, constitutional experts, politicians can usually give you a cogent argument/case to support their view. now they are completely open in saying they haven't got a clue as to how this is going to pan out.
at the moment the only certainty is that we have uncertainty which is what the markets and business hate. We can also say that if the pound continues at this level then imports will cost more, and remember we have a huge imbalance in this area. that inevitably leads to inflation and that isn't usually good news
I will never say this was a good decision, 75%. Say it again 75% of 18-24 years olds, including myself, voted to remain in the EU. This is my future, and we have left through votes of those these decisions wont affect. Its a democracy, but that isnt fair, the young have been well and truly shafted, again!! Its an uncertain time, very worrying, and all i can say is i hope your dam flipping proud of yourselves
Are you suggesting we have separate age categories for voting or that anyone over the age of 25's view won't count? To many mystic megs around and people can moan all they like but there is nothing you can do about it now.
Are you suggesting we have separate age categories for voting or that anyone over the age of 25's view won't count? To many mystic megs around and people can moan all they like but there is nothing you can do about it now.
Not at all, but in this instance the ones who will suffer most, voted for exactly the opposite. How can that be seen as fair? We have been sold down the river well and truly by older generations who havent given a second thought to the consequences of the decision they've been brainwashed into voting for
Not at all, but in this instance the ones who will suffer most, voted for exactly the opposite. How can that be seen as fair? We have been sold down the river well and truly by older generations who havent given a second thought to the consequences of the decision they've been brainwashed into voting for
i feel for you Hagrid. but don't worry, coz there won't be any immigrants and you can wave your union jack with added pride as you get laid off your job. seriously, i understand your pain; difficult to do but you will have to look at it long term , probably about 10 years. one or two economists did make a case that if we took all the right decisions, and things went our way we might improve on our present level of prosperity in about a decade. i suspect that if things go really titts up the e.u. would probably take us back, even though it would be on worse terms
Now, there seems to be quite a lot of vitriolic comments flying about on these pages at the moment, and also quite a few that could be construed as ageist from our younger posters who seem to think we "know nowt", because we are over fifty. Let me inform you of something. The world and especially the country you enjoy today was not created by this ill thought out an poorly constructed mess we call the EU, it was created by the people of a certain generation who, after the devastation and mess of a war torn Europe helped pull this country up by its bootstraps, with the sheer hard work and commitment to ensure a better world for people like yourselves. You are correct, we didn't have the educational opportunities that you enjoy today, but that wasn't the EU that gave them to you, it was todays elder generation.
Now, we may not have have had those opportunities, or the chance to urinate our student grants up against the Wheatsheif toilet wall, (most of which will never be paid back anyway, because although you may have degrees coming out of your ears, you'll probably end up working in McDonalds for a living so you don't earn the required amount to have to pay it back),but what we do have is usually called an education in the University of Life, which in my reckoning beats all the degrees under the sun , as you will no doubt find out later in life.
So please don't insult the intelligence of the so called "over the hill mob" by inferring that we have made the wrong choice just because the referendum didn't go in your favour. Give us some credit. I can't think of many of the elder generation who took any notice at all of either side with their campaigns drenched in nastiness and scaremongering, we know our own minds you see, we should do, we've lived it, we know what Politicians are like, we take no notice. To end, the old army phrase comes to mind here, "get your knees brown sonny, get some time in". But i don't suppose you will understand that, you see, they don't teach THAT in university.
I've got two kids under the age of 4 and feel genuinely angry at some of the opportunities that have been taken away from them. We've just voted for a deep, long-lasting recession, less rights for workers, massive instability and Boris Johnson for PM. Pete might call me a sore loser but I could call him and many others far worse if I wasn't too polite. One of the saddest things for me is how we've fulfilled our stereotype of the chippy little-Englander with a superiority complex.
Your generation had cheap housing, free education, social mobility, an economy on the up and the ability to manufacture things. We've got none of that. We must be the first generation in history that is significantly worse off than the generation that left before. I hope you're all proud. And why have you sold us down the river? Because, and I quote "you can't walk 50 yards in the town without hearing a foreign language", you said that in the discussion further on the other forum. Well bra-fucking-vo, we're all very grateful that your inwards looking, xenophobic attitude came before our future prosperity. The worst thing about the over 65s clinching the Leave win is that you won't even be around to face the consequences for too long and you're all retired so won't have to suffer the hardships it's going to bring as much. Your generation got wealthy off the back of the EU. Before joining our economy was the slowest growing out of the G7 countries, it grew the quickest once we were a member. But that is something you've all denied our generation now.
. .
Boris went to Eton so you could say he is well educated and knows what he is talking about,
The trouble with being young is you do not know first hand how great this country is,
You said we had everything when we were young ,well that's a laugh,
We got what we worked for and did not have mobile phones, computers and in the early days an inside toilet,
The country had money because we did not give it away to the EU,
When the European Market started it was just for trade and that is why we joined,
BUT
They would not let us in for years turning us down time and time again,
You have nothing to worry about if you have faith in our GREAT country,
Also you said it will not be effecting us old ones, well I do have children, grandchildren and even great grandchildren,
I voted to leave because I honestly thought it would be better for them.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
This country isnt great, theres nothing great about it ffs! All this bullshit make it great again, its never been that! We didnt want or ask for a referendum, it was dumped on us, and our generation will suffer the most
This country isnt great, theres nothing great about it ffs! All this bullshit make it great again, its never been that! We didnt want or ask for a referendum, it was dumped on us, and our generation will suffer the most
Jesus Christ pick your dummy up, anyone would think u was psychic the way you're going on, we had a vote, you lost it, unlucky get over it.. Only time will tell how we will get on after this but i'm absolutely over the moon that we're no longer part of the eu..
Oh well if you say it's going to be alright, despite the overwhelming predictions from experts that it won't be, with no evidence of your own that it will be and no response to the myriad of problems we're going to face which have been articulately put across by more knowledgeable posters on here then that's fine then.
Hagrid was right. The older generation, such as yourself Pete, and I'm not meaning to pick entirely on you but you're the one on this thread who has made a comment which sums it up, have shafted my generation. Your (generations)belief that it will be alright despite the predictions by independent experts that it won't be is so infuriating. It encapsulates the fact that our population is leaning towards an anti-intellectual consensus summed up by Gove when he said we're "fed up of listening to experts". Well if we're not going to listen to the experts then who the fuck are we meant to listen to? How stupid must we look to the rest of the world?! From their neutral, objective stance they've seen us vote against what is commonly thought to be the best way forward which, unfortunately for them, will also impact their economies to some degree.
Your generation had cheap housing, free education, social mobility, an economy on the up and the ability to manufacture things. We've got none of that. We must be the first generation in history that is significantly worse off than the generation that left before. I hope you're all proud. And why have you sold us down the river? Because, and I quote "you can't walk 50 yards in the town without hearing a foreign language", you said that in the discussion further on the other forum. Well bra-fucking-vo, we're all very grateful that your inwards looking, xenophobic attitude came before our future prosperity. The worst thing about the over 65s clinching the Leave win is that you won't even be around to face the consequences for too long and you're all retired so won't have to suffer the hardships it's going to bring as much. Your generation got wealthy off the back of the EU. Before joining our economy was the slowest growing out of the G7 countries, it grew the quickest once we were a member. But that is something you've all denied our generation now.
Both sides in this referendum have been utterly awful. But the amount of lies, fear mongering and xenophobia from the Leave campaign has been disgusting. Even today, I have had people argue with me that we'll have £350 million a week to spend now despite the fact that many independents have shown this to be nowhere near the case. They plastered it on their bus for fuck sake and kept it even when they proved to be liars.
This referendum should have never have taken place. An issue as complex and emotive as this should have been made by the people who are elected to understand the impact a decision could have and are there to make the important decisions for us. It is extremely telling that one of the biggest differences between Remain and Leave voters is level of education and I'm sorry to say it, but that is a downside to democracy; the stupid get as much say as the intelligent. I think it was John Stuart Mill who suggested that the higher educated you are the more weight your vote should carry and certainly with something like this, where a lot of people seem to have literally no clue about the ramifications, it should have been that way.
I saw a post doing the round on social media and it struck a chord because it's very true: "A quick note on the first three tragedies. Firstly, it was the working classes who voted for us to leave because they were economically disregarded and it is they who will suffer most in the short term from the dearth of jobs and investment. They have merely swapped one distant and unreachable elite for another one. Secondly, the younger generation has lost the right live and work in 27 other countries. We will never know the full extent of the lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences we will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by our parents, uncles and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debt of our predecessors. Thirdly and perhaps most signifcantly, we now live in a post-factual democracy. When the facts met the myths they were as useless as bullets bouncing off the bodies of aliens in a HG Wells novel. When Michael Gove said "the British people are sick of experts" he was right. But can anybody tell me the last time a prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism has lead to anything other than bigotry?"
A great and pertinent post from someone who, like myself, will now suffer thanks to other generations. I am fortunate in that the qualification I'm studying for will still enable me to work in many other countries relatively easily should I choose to. The majority are not so lucky.
Scotland will leave now and the UK will break up. That will further impact the economy and be a real ballache to sort out, not to mention expensive. A dark, dark day in our history.
This country isnt great, theres nothing great about it ffs! All this bullshit make it great again, its never been that! We didnt want or ask for a referendum, it was dumped on us, and our generation will suffer the most
Of course this country is great and if you don't think so,
You can always vote to leave.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
Not at all, but in this instance the ones who will suffer most, voted for exactly the opposite. How can that be seen as fair? We have been sold down the river well and truly by older generations who havent given a second thought to the consequences of the decision they've been brainwashed into voting for
The older generation are not as easy fooled as you young ones,
We have grandchildren and great grandchildren to think about,
You forget we know what it is like when we ruled our own country,
We will still trade with the euro countries as well as the rest of the world,
The pound will drop shares will drop,
BUT
They will rise again they always do,
You might even find it easier to get on the property ladder,
Another younger member said you have no chance of getting a council house,
Again you might find it easier now.
Cheer up it might never happen.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
Of course this country is great and if you don't think so,
You can always vote to leave.
Well that is utter nonsense. What will he do? Have a Hagrid referendum? Unless you haven't noticed his ability to move abroad easily just decreased emphatically. One of the opportunities no longer afforded to our generation.
This country isnt great, theres nothing great about it ffs! All this bullshit make it great again, its never been that! We didnt want or ask for a referendum, it was dumped on us, and our generation will suffer the most
I don't know how old you are, but I'm 22 years old. I wanted the referendum. I wanted and voted for us to leave. I feel my generation has the most to gain from leaving. My parents taught me this country was great, and once it may have been. I feel we need to look after ourselves for once, put ourselves 1st. I feel it maybe painful for a while, but hold on, get the right people making the right choices and we'll get there
There where always going to be one side that "Won" and the other side that "Lost". I'm not going to gloat, I can tell your peed off, maybe take a couple of days for the dust to settle? Come back in a few years and if we've ended up still in the excrement (I admit it feels like we're in the excrement right now) you can say you where right and that I screwed the country over.
I don't know how old you are, but I'm 22 years old. I wanted the referendum. I wanted and voted for us to leave. I feel my generation has the most to gain from leaving. My parents taught me this country was great, and once it may have been. I feel we need to look after ourselves for once, put ourselves 1st. I feel it maybe painful for a while, but hold on, get the right people making the right choices and we'll get there
There where always going to be one side that "Won" and the other side that "Lost". I'm not going to gloat, I can tell your peed off, maybe take a couple of days for the dust to settle? Come back in a few years and if we've ended up still in the excrement (I admit it feels like we're in the excrement right now) you can say you where right and that I screwed the country over.
I think that's a fair comment. Emotions have obviously run high today and there is no definitive proof that this will end well or not. Obviously we all have differing opinions as to how well this change will go. I want the UK to be great, I believe there were, and still are, many things of which we should be proud of. However, my greatest pride in this country was always how tolerant we were compared to nearly any other country and today it seems we've voted in a way that shows us in a less favourable light, at least to outsiders. I was talking to my head nurse today who is a Polish lady, who speaks perfect English and has worked for the NHS the entire 8 years she has been here. A nicer lady you couldn't wish to meet and she expressed great sadness at the result of the referendum saying it felt as though the country had voted to reject her and others like her, it was heartbreaking. But democracy, for all it's flaws, is worth persevering with and the people have spoken no matter how much I or others dislike the result. Now we have to move on and try to make the best of the hand we've been dealt.
The older generation are not as easy fooled as you young ones,
We have grandchildren and great grandchildren to think about,
You forget we know what it is like when we ruled our own country,
We will still trade with the euro countries as well as the rest of the world,
The pound will drop shares will drop,
BUT
They will rise again they always do,
You might even find it easier to get on the property ladder,
Another younger member said you have no chance of getting a council house,
Again you might find it easier now.
Cheer up it might never happen.
Pete, to call you hopelessly misguided is probably about as generous as I can manage to be.
I remember when we ruled our own country. Today, yesterday and tomorrow. The EU has not ruled us - most of the regulations the Kippers were complaining about are entirely reasonable and will need to be duplicated pretty much one for one when we go through the long and expensive process of rewriting our laws. The 'red tape' nonsense the Leave campaign has gone on about is just that - nonsense. Once we're out of the single market, the paperwork and regulations required to deal with EU members will more than make up for any difference.
You state with certainty that the value of the pound will rise again as will the value of shares. What makes you think this? Here's a hint: companies often go bust and their shares become worthless. The damage done to our economy by this vote will lead many more companies to fail, costing livelihoods and damaging lives.
Most bizarre of all is the claim it will be easier to get a council house! What planet are you living on? Council houses aren't being built - the current government is even forcing housing associations to sell off their stocks at a discount! The replacement for the current government will be even more cluelessly right-wing than the current bunch Nowhere near enough houses are being built now, with a weaker economy, there will be even less housebuilding as there is neither the will or the way to set up a sensible housing policy. The shares of some of the major UK housebuilders fell 40% this morning which shows what the market thinks of our housing prospects!
The anti-intellectual stance taken by so many Brexiters is just stunning to me. If you're ill, you go and see an expert - a doctor, not some bloke in a pub. If you're building a skyscraper or a bridge, you get engineers to sort it out. With practically every economic and political expert on the planet noting that a Leave vote will be so damaging, I'm baffled that so many millions of voters just disregarded this advice!
Well, you reap what you sow and it won't be long before that brown stuff really hits the fan.
I feel insulted to be accused of screwing things up for Hagrids pre school age group. When you grow up you will realise that through age you get improved powers of rational reasoning. I voted leave for a BETTER life for my children. I think in reality nobody really knows the impact of this vote. I can live with that, at least we will be in control of our own demise if it goes wrong and not some unelected eu commissioner. Lets stop being bad losers and work together for the benefit of this great country of ours and our children.
Boris went to Eton so you could say he is well educated and knows what he is talking about,
The trouble with being young is you do not know first hand how great this country is,
You said we had everything when we were young ,well that's a laugh,
We got what we worked for and did not have mobile phones, computers and in the early days an inside toilet,
The country had money because we did not give it away to the EU,
When the European Market started it was just for trade and that is why we joined,
BUT
They would not let us in for years turning us down time and time again,
You have nothing to worry about if you have faith in our GREAT country,
Also you said it will not be effecting us old ones, well I do have children, grandchildren and even great grandchildren,
I voted to leave because I honestly thought it would be better for them.
Boris is an opportunistic wanker who only 8 years ago was talking about how the EU must admit Turkey sooner rather than later. Weird how he's changed his opinion when the sniff of a chance to take power came about. I couldn't care less where he'd been educated as he's a morality vacuum so his opinion is guff to my mind.
You had far more opportunities than we do today. Regardless of how technology has changed you could buy a house back then for the price of a good mountain bike today. Education was completely free. Social mobility was easier. The economy was on the up. I don't doubt you worked hard but that's irrelevant to the point that even if we work hard now, most of those opportunities are no longer available to us. I will struggle to ever get on the housing market despite training in a profession that has salaries well above the national average. Partly because of the prices and partly because once I qualify I'll already be £90,000 in debt. 50 years ago I'd have graduated debt free and been able to afford a decent house within a year of working.
The country had more money once it joined the EU, that is a historical fact. The growth of the economy grew significantly from the point of joining. I agree that the EU should be mostly trade deals, although some regulations such as guaranteed paid holiday are certainly worth having. However, a remain vote wasn't a vote to stick with the status quo, I doubt you'd find anybody who wanted the EU and it's relationship with the UK to stay as it was. It was deeply flawed and I could certainly see some of the arguments to leaving. However, remaining would have given us the chance to see if we can reform, to see if the EU is capable of evolving for the better with us having a say in how it went forward. If it didn't improve, we could always leave in the future. Now we've left, that's it. It's done, it's irreversible and it's galling that the vast majority of under 50's, and particularly the under 25s voted to stay. We're the ones who will be affected most and we're the ones who didn't want this change. Where is the fairness in that?
I feel insulted to be accused of screwing things up for Hagrids pre school age group. When you grow up you will realise that through age you get improved powers of rational reasoning. I voted leave for a BETTER life for my children. I think in reality nobody really knows the impact of this vote. I can live with that, at least we will be in control of our own demise if it goes wrong and not some unelected eu commissioner. Lets stop being bad losers and work together for the benefit of this great country of ours and our children.
So ignoring the independent experts and voting for us to leave the EU when we don't know the impact is rational reasoning is it?
As for calling people bad losers, how do you expect us to react when our way of life is under threat from something our generation voted against?
Mariner91, what an outstanding couple of posts you've made there. Also, ignore the ones who think they know what's best for you and your generation simply because they're older. That tells you all you need to know about them.
I feel, in a way, those who wanted to remain could have done with showing a little of the passion we have been showing in defeat. However, it was always an easier argument for the Leave campaign. They just had to appeal to peoples unfounded fears on immigration and the lies the Leave campaign told about what they would do with the money.
I don't doubt some people have voted to leave because of valid understandable reasons. However, I have seen far more people stated they voted to leave for the wrong reasons. Reasons from the far right and through misinformation, spread by the leave campaign. Certainly not all and maybe not the majority but enough to have swung the vote which leads me to believe we have left the EU because of ignorance.
So ignoring the independent experts and voting for us to leave the EU when we don't know the impact is rational reasoning is it?
As for calling people bad losers, how do you expect us to react when our way of life is under threat from something our generation voted against?
Or maybe listening to the pro-Exit independent experts and voting with your instinct? There were TWO sides to this, in a Democratic vote.
You have no idea how things will go, what new initiatives can be explored, you just assume you are on the correct side and that a 100% certain rosy future has been denied you and you lash out at anyone who voted the opposite way. It's a shame the same effort wasn't exerted by disgruntled voters when this rotten Government where elected even after we'd had over 4 years to see how awful they were.
You're getting perilously close to 'The English won't pick spuds, too lazy' so, as someone who's recently dealt with these matters and has seen first hand how this works and the money/bias involved I'm going to bow out. But for someone who's going around accusing people of ignorance you seem to be wrapped up in your own little ignorant world.
No, I'm not whatsoever, you just want it to sound that way. You were the one who said "pay enough and get local work", as if the minimum wage is below local work. If it's not minimum wage then it's illegal and should be reported. That is not the fault of the EU, look closer to home for that one.
True, but the EU has helped to accelerate this shift
How? If you think it's because of cheaper wages that would have happened and does happen but to the likes of India, China, Indonesia etc not just because of the EU. At least if it is to other parts of the EU it would help keep more people in whatever country you imply took our manufacturing firms, helping reduce the Leave's campaign's exaggerated immigration issues.
Or maybe listening to the pro-Exit independent experts and voting with your instinct? There were TWO sides to this, in a Democratic vote.
You have no idea how things will go, what new initiatives can be explored, you just assume you are on the correct side and that a 100% certain rosy future has been denied you and you lash out at anyone who voted the opposite way. It's a shame the same effort wasn't exerted by disgruntled voters when this rotten Government where elected even after we'd had over 4 years to see how awful they were.
And exactly who are these pro exit dependent experts robocod? Nigel farage? Mme. le pen? There are NO credible economists who have provided a cogent argument as to how this country could prosper outside the eu. You might call them the establishment but EVERY credible body has said that it will be bad news. You cannot name a single foreign country that thought it was a good idea for us to leave. People outside the uk who gave advice were interfering mates of Cameron who had no right to express an opinion. Let's just deal with one or two facts. The pound has plummeted.that means imports are 5-10% more expensive overnight.we import far more than we export. That means your food your cars your tools your clothes will cost more.that means inflation. You get inflation you get interest rate rises which means your mortgage goes up. That means because wages aren't going up you have less money to spend on anything but food bills mortgage etc. That means you don't spend as much money in the shops, which means the shop lays off staff or closes down. That means more people on the dole, less money coming in tax and more money spent on tax. That means the govt has to put up taxes or cut spending even more to cover the increase in benefit payments. And so it goes on. Recession strikes people get poorer crime goes up. But don't worry we've got rid of the immigrants and the interfering Europeans ,and we can wave our union jacks with pride. You're living in a some sort of sixties dreamworld
True, but the EU has helped to accelerate this shift
The EU merely gives business a chance to remain in Europe. If it didn't go to cheaper countries in Europe it'd end up outside the continent or disappear completely due to far eastern competition.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Or maybe listening to the pro-Exit independent experts and voting with your instinct? There were TWO sides to this, in a Democratic vote.
You have no idea how things will go, what new initiatives can be explored, you just assume you are on the correct side and that a 100% certain rosy future has been denied you and you lash out at anyone who voted the opposite way. It's a shame the same effort wasn't exerted by disgruntled voters when this rotten Government where elected even after we'd had over 4 years to see how awful they were.
Who were? Please, genuinely, give me an example of an independent expert who said leaving would be beneficial, I'm yet to see one.
Boris went to Eton so you could say he is well educated and knows what he is talking about,
The trouble with being young is you do not know first hand how great this country is,
You said we had everything when we were young ,well that's a laugh,
We got what we worked for and did not have mobile phones, computers and in the early days an inside toilet,
The country had money because we did not give it away to the EU,
When the European Market started it was just for trade and that is why we joined,
BUT
They would not let us in for years turning us down time and time again,
You have nothing to worry about if you have faith in our GREAT country,
Also you said it will not be effecting us old ones, well I do have children, grandchildren and even great grandchildren,
I voted to leave because I honestly thought it would be better for them.
Pete for someone of your mature years you can't half be naive. Boris Johnson is very well educated. He knows what he's doing. He's pulled the wool over people's eyes.
He was sitting on the fence 6 months ago. Waiting to see which way he thought people would go, then declared for 'Leave". He's a career politician. An opportunist. A highly ambitious, rich man.
Classic Old Etonian. Like his rival Dave.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Just because you didn't get the result you wanted doesn't mean you should just claim the majority of the people that voted are suffering from xenophobia. I read your kneejerk comments as saying that everyone who voted to Leave is a xenophobe. I find that claim insulting. I know this result has prob shocked, surprised and prob even scared you. Take a deep breath give it a few days for the news to sink in and for the dust to settle, then come back rational and calm.
Where to begin? Firstly, i am rational and calm thank you. I'm of the older generation and have learned through experience that things don't always go the way you had hoped and getting irate about it changes nothing.
Secondly, my comments are not kneejerk as i have thought all along that if we were to leave, it would probably be the immigration issue that would settle it. I read somewhere today that the campaign was supercharged by austerity and immigration and for me those topics should have been just a sideshow to the wider issues.
Thirdly, every single person i know that voted to leave, including members of my family, used the words immigration and independence in their argument and i truly believe that the xenophobes swayed the vote to leave significantly. I never said everyone who voted to leave is a xenophobe; i'm not dumb enough to think that.
Lastly, i am not shocked, nor surprised but am a little scared if the truth be known. Not so much for me but the younger generation. I am sorry that you find my claim insulting but i frankly don't give a fook.
Not at all, but in this instance the ones who will suffer most, voted for exactly the opposite. How can that be seen as fair? We have been sold down the river well and truly by older generations who havent given a second thought to the consequences of the decision they've been brainwashed into voting for
Why are you just blaming the older generation, there's plenty of young people that have voted leave aswell, and don't u think for a second that the older (more experienced) generation have done what they've done for the sake of there children/grandchildren? I know i have, i'm 33 and i voted out for the sake of my 11 year old boy and my 5 year old girl, i definitely think they will have a better future now we're out of the eu... So please get off your angry high horse..
This is 1979 all over again. The unions shot the Labour movement in the foot with strikes against wage caps, allowing the Tories in (backed by lots of working class voters) who promptly emasculated the unions, and manufacturing.
This time the working class has committed suicide. The poorest are the ones who'll suffer the most. Everything Maringer and Forza have said is correct.
And it's goodbye to the UK. It'll be down to the one kingdom of England (with the principality of Wales) now. So what the SNP and the IRA have failed to achieve, Nige and Boris have done for them. Far from making Britain great again, it's going to kill Britain off as a united country.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Oh well if you say it's going to be alright, despite the overwhelming predictions from experts that it won't be, with no evidence of your own that it will be and no response to the myriad of problems we're going to face which have been articulately put across by more knowledgeable posters on here then that's fine then.
Hagrid was right. The older generation, such as yourself Pete, and I'm not meaning to pick entirely on you but you're the one on this thread who has made a comment which sums it up, have shafted my generation. Your (generations)belief that it will be alright despite the predictions by independent experts that it won't be is so infuriating. It encapsulates the fact that our population is leaning towards an anti-intellectual consensus summed up by Gove when he said we're "fed up of listening to experts". Well if we're not going to listen to the experts then who the fuck are we meant to listen to? How stupid must we look to the rest of the world?! From their neutral, objective stance they've seen us vote against what is commonly thought to be the best way forward which, unfortunately for them, will also impact their economies to some degree.
Your generation had cheap housing, free education, social mobility, an economy on the up and the ability to manufacture things. We've got none of that. We must be the first generation in history that is significantly worse off than the generation that left before. I hope you're all proud. And why have you sold us down the river? Because, and I quote "you can't walk 50 yards in the town without hearing a foreign language", you said that in the discussion further on the other forum. Well bra-fucking-vo, we're all very grateful that your inwards looking, xenophobic attitude came before our future prosperity. The worst thing about the over 65s clinching the Leave win is that you won't even be around to face the consequences for too long and you're all retired so won't have to suffer the hardships it's going to bring as much. Your generation got wealthy off the back of the EU. Before joining our economy was the slowest growing out of the G7 countries, it grew the quickest once we were a member. But that is something you've all denied our generation now.
Both sides in this referendum have been utterly awful. But the amount of lies, fear mongering and xenophobia from the Leave campaign has been disgusting. Even today, I have had people argue with me that we'll have £350 million a week to spend now despite the fact that many independents have shown this to be nowhere near the case. They plastered it on their bus for fuck sake and kept it even when they proved to be liars.
This referendum should have never have taken place. An issue as complex and emotive as this should have been made by the people who are elected to understand the impact a decision could have and are there to make the important decisions for us. It is extremely telling that one of the biggest differences between Remain and Leave voters is level of education and I'm sorry to say it, but that is a downside to democracy; the stupid get as much say as the intelligent. I think it was John Stuart Mill who suggested that the higher educated you are the more weight your vote should carry and certainly with something like this, where a lot of people seem to have literally no clue about the ramifications, it should have been that way.
I saw a post doing the round on social media and it struck a chord because it's very true: "A quick note on the first three tragedies. Firstly, it was the working classes who voted for us to leave because they were economically disregarded and it is they who will suffer most in the short term from the dearth of jobs and investment. They have merely swapped one distant and unreachable elite for another one. Secondly, the younger generation has lost the right live and work in 27 other countries. We will never know the full extent of the lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences we will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by our parents, uncles and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debt of our predecessors. Thirdly and perhaps most signifcantly, we now live in a post-factual democracy. When the facts met the myths they were as useless as bullets bouncing off the bodies of aliens in a HG Wells novel. When Michael Gove said "the British people are sick of experts" he was right. But can anybody tell me the last time a prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism has lead to anything other than bigotry?"
A great and pertinent post from someone who, like myself, will now suffer thanks to other generations. I am fortunate in that the qualification I'm studying for will still enable me to work in many other countries relatively easily should I choose to. The majority are not so lucky.
Scotland will leave now and the UK will break up. That will further impact the economy and be a real ballache to sort out, not to mention expensive. A dark, dark day in our history.
Probably the best post I have ever read on this board(poojahs rant was comedy gold ) I am 52 but I am so angry because it didn't need to be like this. Now the generations younger than me are going to have to deal with the consequence of this vote for years. And you are right yours is the first generation for god knows how long that is going to be poorer than their parents. And for what? For control over borders, that will let in the self same people because we still need foreigners to pick our veg, to build our houses and to be our carers. And we can proclaim that at least Europe doesn't dictate to us when in reality our industry will still have to obey all their rules and diktats in order to sell to them. You couldn't make it up
Why are you just blaming the older generation, there's plenty of young people that have voted leave aswell, and don't u think for a second that the older (more experienced) generation have done what they've done for the sake of there children/grandchildren? I know i have, i'm 33 and i voted out for the sake of my 11 year old boy and my 5 year old girl, i definitely think they will have a better future now we're out of the eu... So please get off your angry high horse..
75%, as i stated earlier- if you bother to read other posts- of 18-24 year olds VOTED REMAIN. Yet we will bear the brunt of others decision making? You can say 25% voted to leave, but i can assure you, speak to many people in that age bracket, and you near enough get the same answer. Worry that our views have been ignored yet again, and insecurity about any future for ourselves and potential families
It's not like Pete to be easily swayed though is it? If remain had have won he'd no doubt telling us that's what he really wanted to happen and supporting the EU in a few weeks.
75%, as i stated earlier- if you bother to read other posts- of 18-24 year olds VOTED REMAIN. Yet we will bear the brunt of others decision making? You can say 25% voted to leave, but i can assure you, speak to many people in that age bracket, and you near enough get the same answer. Worry that our views have been ignored yet again, and insecurity about any future for ourselves and potential families
Ok so why are u bashing/slating the older generation saying that it wont have any affect on them? Do you not think that they have done this for there kids and grand children?
Ok so why are u bashing/slating the older generation saying that it wont have any affect on them? Do you not think that they have done this for there kids and grand children?
Because it wont to the extent that it will hit my generation, i would be embarrased if my parents voted for us to leave the EU knowing what situation they would put there son in for the next god knows 7-8 years. We will agree to disagree on this, i cant at this moment in time see a single positive from the decision and unfortunately theres nothing we can do to change it now. Have to get on with it and suffer the inevitable consequences
It's not like Pete to be easily swayed though is it? If remain had have won he'd no doubt telling us that's what he really wanted to happen and supporting the EU in a few weeks.
I am getting a bit fed up of your comments LH
Either stop replying to my posts or come and meet me in person at a match,
So we can discuss our differences over a pint ,
As Friends ?
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
Ok so why are u bashing/slating the older generation saying that it wont have any affect on them? Do you not think that they have done this for there kids and grand children?
I am decidedly part of the 'older generation' and this ridiculous leave vote has done absolutely fuckall for my lad or his children, quite the opposite in fact, my investments for him and his girls lost £7500 before breakfast this morning.
Any oldies who really cared about the next two generations would have voted remain, not just for financial reasons but for jobs, growth, stability et al
On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries
Well the usual patronising pessimistic suspects are all out in force on here today I see, but Ginny the resident liberal biggot has once again overstepped the mark with your disgracefull xenophobic accusations!!! do you realise how bitter you are? Screaming racist when a nation wants to govern itself and control immigration doesn't work anymore.
immigration was not top of my list for wanting out but I can understand why communities who have been heavily affected by it would vote for this reason, just look at Boston who had the highest percentage of leave votes tells its own story.
As for the economy there will be a bit of a rattle but it's not even been as bad as I expected, I see the FTSE finished the week where it started so doom merchant Maringer can stop wetting his pants, I will agree a recession is likely but this has been on the cards for whichever the outcome and Maringer knows this.
As for another Scottish referendum forget it oil now down from$100 to $45 a barrel, and will the people actually want to join a failing Union?
Good to see the the Germans French Australia USA and the Canadians have come out already and they all want to trade with us so we will be fine, the people have voted for a free country we are in control of our own destiny now we should all rejoice, once again thank you to all the people who voted and gave us our independence back.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
For all you people expecting immigration to fall, Nigel Evans has just been on Radio 5 and when asked if and how much immigration would fall, he just kept repeating they will 'control it'. So after they dropped the idea of spending a big chink of the savings on the NHS, they are now back-peddling on immigration.
You've been duped.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Suzanne Evans writes- A Prime Minister resigned. The £ plummeted. The FTSE 100 lost significant ground. But then the £ rallied past February levels, and the FTSE closed on a weekly high: 2.4% up on last Friday, its best performance in 4 months. President Obama decided we wouldn't be at the 'back of the queue' after all and that our 'special relationship' was still strong. The French President confirmed the Le Touquet agreement would stay in place. The President of the European Commission stated Brexit negations would be 'orderly' and stressed the UK would continue to be a 'close partner' of the EU. A big bank denied reports it would shift 2,000 staff overseas. The CBI, vehemently anti-Brexit during the referendum campaign, stated British business was resilient and would adapt. Several countries outside the EU stated they wished to begin bi-lateral trade talks with the UK immediately. If this was the predicted apocalypse, well, it was a very British one. It was all over by teatime. Not a bad first day of freedom.
The next step will be when the new points system is implemented, you'll find that instead of east European immigrants coming in for a 2 or 3 quid an hour less, there'll be immigrants from Africa and Asia who will work for 50% of the previous level.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Suzanne Evans writes- A Prime Minister resigned. The £ plummeted. The FTSE 100 lost significant ground. But then the £ rallied past February levels, and the FTSE closed on a weekly high: 2.4% up on last Friday, its best performance in 4 months. President Obama decided we wouldn't be at the 'back of the queue' after all and that our 'special relationship' was still strong. The French President confirmed the Le Touquet agreement would stay in place. The President of the European Commission stated Brexit negations would be 'orderly' and stressed the UK would continue to be a 'close partner' of the EU. A big bank denied reports it would shift 2,000 staff overseas. The CBI, vehemently anti-Brexit during the referendum campaign, stated British business was resilient and would adapt. Several countries outside the EU stated they wished to begin bi-lateral trade talks with the UK immediately. If this was the predicted apocalypse, well, it was a very British one. It was all over by teatime. Not a bad first day of freedom.
You can pick any point on a graph to suit your argument Jay. But it's still down on yesterday's high (on the back of expectations of a Remain win).
Feb was a particularly low point for the pound. if you picked May, your argument wouldn't work.
Was it Obama said about Britain not being back of the queue today?
Morgan Stanley, the bank in question said "There will be at least a period of two years before an actual exit takes place, so there will be time to implement any changes required to adjust our business to the new environment. Morgan Stanley will continue to monitor developments very closely and will adapt accordingly while prioritising the interests of our clients, our shareholders and our employees," (quoted in the Independent). Now that sounds to me like they're saying, the door is very much open on relocating operations.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
I'll try if you want a serious answer. All models being put up as an example of how Britain should be in terms of trade and immigration. Norway, Switzerland etc all have Freedom of movement in place the EU won't make a deal without tariffs without it. Hope that helps
The way things where was untenable to a lot in the uk. when time served joiners are undercut by a man with a hammer from poland by 50% what do you do? I can go to my local Wickes and there 50+ people waiting outside for a days work for however much you want to pay them Why would the British working class welcome this?
For me voting leave wasn't just about immigration it was about democracy, you know that democracy that was taken from us without our consent. The democracy that holds to account Politicians and makes them abide by the rules and if they don't they are voted out or in the case of the expenses scandal, imprisonment. You can't do this to un-elected bureaucrats who splash our cash on what they want. There is no accountability, you can't remove them or take them to court and you certainly don't know where the money has gone.
Lobbyists run the EU, big corporations run the EU, the EU is just a front.
Some of you have short memories, because of the EU quotas cost hundreds of people their jobs on the fish docks, some two or more times over, as quotas cut deeper and deeper and fish merchant after fish merchant went to the wall. I saw first hand how the EU robbed hundreds of Grimsby lads jobs because I was one of them. It was great of the EU though to allow other countries to fish our waters and then graciously allow us buy the fish we used to catch. I, like many, had to move away to find work. It also makes it easy for lazy politicians to blame the EU and do nothing.
The EU has funded more companies to relocate from the UK than to it, costing UK jobs.
What is the problem with an Australian type immigration control, at least we can either refuse entry or remove rapists, murderers and pedophiles, something we can't do under the EU. Immigration is good for the country but only if you let in the right people with the skills you are short of.
Aren't you a little bit curious as to why no leaders of the EU countries made a real effort to sway British voters to remain, only Obama's threat of you'll be at the back of the line. Aren't you curious why the EU didn't explain how it works, it's values and why there is 5 presidents.
Which ever way the vote may have gone, there was always going to be repercussions, you take few knocks and then you get up again. The EU has big plans that don't involve your say, a bit like it is now.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
Just to play devils advocate for a moment.talking to a very pro exit man in my village local tonight.he did make the very valid point that this decision hurts Europe as much as it hurts us. His scenario is that a deal will be stitched up behind closed doors on a mutually beneficial, and saleable, agreement whereby we can have the panacea of leaving but everything else, in reality, remains the same. Have to say that is what Europe does best I.e. Realpolitik. Whilst I am hurting and scared and angry I have to admit that we are where we are and we have to make the best of a very bad job, us Brits generally are at our best when our backs are against the wall and we have this British is best attitude. We just have to hope this comes to the fore and we can muddle our way through this crisis, in the same sort of way we used our ingenuity and doggedness to come through a far worse scenario 75 years ago. As Emily thorn berry said tonight the brexiteers have led us into the middle of a very dark wood and when we have asked how we get out of the wood they've just shrugged their shoulders and said dunno.lets hope our British bulldog, never say die outlook finds us the safe path out
What I don't like about the remain camp is that they think people who voted leave are some kind of idiots or thick, we have a right to vote how we see fit, it's a democracy isn't it??
What I don't like about the remain camp is that they think people who voted leave are some kind of idiots or thick, we have a right to vote how we see fit, it's a democracy isn't it??
Of course not all leave voters are thick, just as not all remain voters are geniuses (I had to check how to spell that).
However, the trends at the bottom of this link are quite unbelievable. The graphs showing qualifications in particular show a clear divide. Having qualifications doesn't guarantee intelligence but it's as good a measure as any other.
Everyone is entitled to vote in a referendum but it's very frustrating as a remain voter to speak to people who have no concept of the wider issues involved. That's a massive fault of the remain campaign.
I think I could have stomaced Brexit if there had been a clear plan on the table we were voting for. That way the uncertainty would have been minimised. What we have is nothing short of disgusting. No plan, no clue, no prospects.
I think what we will end up with is going to be very similar to what we have now without the vote to in the eu parliament. Very clever Britain. Think about it. We want to be in the single market but that needs us to comply to EU product regulations and standards. We can't leave the freedom of movement area with out dismantling the common travel area.
Tell me people who voted leave what happens now? What do you want?We'll now have 3 years of economic problems. What will we get for it. We can't do what we want because the EU won't let us. Spain have got a bargaining chip in Gibraltar, France have Calais. Can you really foresee us coming out of negotiations better than how we are now.
The older generation did have it better than today's with jobs. There was full employment people can't deny otherwise. I recently had an interview. I got to the last 2 people from over 300 applicants after a 6 month process. The company told me to apply for another job as they were keen on hiring me. I apply and get rejected at the first stage. I now have to spend more time in education and face trying to get a job in a recession next year. Thanks people who voted leave.
Of course not all leave voters are thick, just as not all remain voters are geniuses (I had to check how to spell that).
However, the trends at the bottom of this link are quite unbelievable. The graphs showing qualifications in particular show a clear divide. Having qualifications doesn't guarantee intelligence but it's as good a measure as any other.
Everyone is entitled to vote in a referendum but it's very frustrating as a remain voter to speak to people who have no concept of the wider issues involved. That's a massive fault of the remain campaign.
To be fair that is a good graph and a interesting one at that.I read a fair few broadsheets citing the reasons for and against of remaining in the EU and watched all the tv debates but what tipped it for me was the immigration problem which has been a massive problem in recent years and was the concern of many others as well.Had the government had more control of this Iam sure me and many others would have voted to remain
Everyone is entitled to vote in a referendum but it's very frustrating as a remain voter to speak to people who have no concept of the wider issues involved. That's a massive fault of the remain campaign.
That's very true and I share the same frustrations, but it's always been that way, and I've always been irritated by it. People have voted based on slogans since recorded history began, Tony Blair perfected the Sound Byte around the time 24-hour news came along and since then we've always had leaders who look and sound good rather than are just clever (like Gordon Brown). Unfortunately, millions of (mainly older) people are influenced by tabloid papers which exaggerate events and stories to suit their agenda.
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
Of course not all leave voters are thick, just as not all remain voters are geniuses (I had to check how to spell that).
However, the trends at the bottom of this link are quite unbelievable. The graphs showing qualifications in particular show a clear divide. Having qualifications doesn't guarantee intelligence but it's as good a measure as any other.
Everyone is entitled to vote in a referendum but it's very frustrating as a remain voter to speak to people who have no concept of the wider issues involved. That's a massive fault of the remain campaign.
The remain could of handled the build up to the referendum so much better though couldn't they? they were caught out a few times with lying and over exaggerating /scaremongering (just look at George Osborne for example) people have had enough and the people voted in numbers to leave, it's alright saying "we are going into the unknown" but let's face it things were not looking rosy being in the EU was it? Now other countries seem to want out too - what a coincidence!
The remain could of handled the build up to the referendum so much better though couldn't they? they were caught out a few times with lying and over exaggerating /scaremongering (just look at George Osborne for example) people have had enough and the people voted in numbers to leave, it's alright saying "we are going into the unknown" but let's face it things were not looking rosy being in the EU was it? Now other countries seem to want out too - what a coincidence!
5th largest economy in the world is pretty rosy to me. People's frustration with inequality in this country seems to have been taken out on the EU rather than our own government. My only hope is that now the Tories will have nothing to hide behind and the right wing press will have to focus on them a bit more.
As for other countries wanting out I presume you're talking about a minority of right wing voters in those countries. So far we've delighted Le Pen, Iran and Russia. Nice one.
That's very true and I share the same frustrations, but it's always been that way, and I've always been irritated by it. People have voted base up slogans since recorded history began, Tony Blair perfected the Sound Byte around the time 24-hour news came along and since then we've always had leaders who look and sound good rather than are just clever (like Gordon Brown). Unfortunately, millions of (mainly older) people are influenced by tabloid papers which exaggerate events and stories to suit their agenda.
Interestingly enough Liverpool voted remain unlike many other areas with a similar demographic. Is it a coincidence that they don't sell The S*n there?
The remain could of handled the build up to the referendum so much better though couldn't they? they were caught out a few times with lying and over exaggerating /scaremongering (just look at George Osborne for example) people have had enough and the people voted in numbers to leave, it's alright saying "we are going into the unknown" but let's face it things were not looking rosy being in the EU was it? Now other countries seem to want out too - what a coincidence!
There's no two ways about it, the official remain campaign could have done better explaining the key facts and what would happen. But a lot of people weren't listening (any sensible independent advice was shouted down as "establishment scaremongering", but when the other side came out with bollox they were prepared to ignore it).
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
And exactly who are these pro exit dependent experts robocod? Nigel farage? Mme. le pen? There are NO credible economists who have provided a cogent argument as to how this country could prosper outside the eu. You might call them the establishment but EVERY credible body has said that it will be bad news. You cannot name a single foreign country that thought it was a good idea for us to leave. People outside the uk who gave advice were interfering mates of Cameron who had no right to express an opinion. Let's just deal with one or two facts. The pound has plummeted.that means imports are 5-10% more expensive overnight.we import far more than we export. That means your food your cars your tools your clothes will cost more.that means inflation. You get inflation you get interest rate rises which means your mortgage goes up. That means because wages aren't going up you have less money to spend on anything but food bills mortgage etc. That means you don't spend as much money in the shops, which means the shop lays off staff or closes down. That means more people on the dole, less money coming in tax and more money spent on tax. That means the govt has to put up taxes or cut spending even more to cover the increase in benefit payments. And so it goes on. Recession strikes people get poorer crime goes up. But don't worry we've got rid of the immigrants and the interfering Europeans ,and we can wave our union jacks with pride. You're living in a some sort of sixties dreamworld
I read "And exactly who are these pro exit dependent experts robocod? Nigel farage? Mme. le pen? " and read no more. DO NOT put me in the same camp as Farage, Johnson, Gove etc. There are MANY more Exit groups, just because it was hijacked by Boris and Nigel does NOT meab we all toed their line. It just shows the approach of many Pro EU voters was just as lazy and uninterested in the real core arguments as afflicted the anti-EU voters.
I despair at the whole thing, one bunch of self-made experts who base their views on what they heard on the telly against the other bunch who did the same.
The older generation did have it better than today's with jobs. There was full employment people can't deny otherwise. I recently had an interview. I got to the last 2 people from over 300 applicants after a 6 month process. The company told me to apply for another job as they were keen on hiring me. I apply and get rejected at the first stage. I now have to spend more time in education and face trying to get a job in a recession next year. Thanks people who voted leave.
That's not true is it ?
Why do you think there are so many exiles on this board,
Why did we leave Grimsby the place of our birth and the area we grew up in and loved because we did not like the place ?
No most of us left because there was no work in Grimsby,
Being shafted by the Icelandics threw thousands out of work.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
I'm interested to know what the brexiteers on here, who cite immigration as the biggest issue, expect to happen.
Do you expect that the EU nationals currently living in this country will be asked to go home? Do you expect that british nationals living in the EU will be asked to come home? Do you expect that immigration will be brought down to less than 100K/year?
Wouldn't surprise me if lots of the expats living in Europe voted for leave as well! They'd be utterly insane to do so, but there is no accounting for human nature and lack of thinking.
I'm interested to know what the brexiteers on here, who cite immigration as the biggest issue, expect to happen.
Do you expect that the EU nationals currently living in this country will be asked to go home? Do you expect that british nationals living in the EU will be asked to come home? Do you expect that immigration will be brought down to less than 100K/year?
Be so ironic if we swapped all the mainly young, working migrants from the EU for a load of retirees who really do clog up our NHS
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
And going back to Chris's point earlier, I do strongly believe that a high proportion of the people who voted out are extremely thick people who based their decision on lies and untruths. I saw loads of it peddled on facebook by family and friends who I personally know are as thick as pigshit. The hysteria on polling day that there was an M15 conspiracy to rig the vote was typical of the mentality and level of education of many. My work colleague worked in a voting station and said 75% of the people where coming in and insisting on having a pen rather than a pencil 'coz it'll be rubbed out and changed otherwise'.
I don't begrudge any person who voted out if they genuinely looked into it carefully and decided based on a reasonable judgement. What I find infuriating is that the difference in votes was less than 2 million and I am certain that there were more than 2 million fuckwits who voted out on the basis if lies.
I read "And exactly who are these pro exit dependent experts robocod? Nigel farage? Mme. le pen? " and read no more. DO NOT put me in the same camp as Farage, Johnson, Gove etc. There are MANY more Exit groups, just because it was hijacked by Boris and Nigel does NOT meab we all toed their line. It just shows the approach of many Pro EU voters was just as lazy and uninterested in the real core arguments as afflicted the anti-EU voters.
I despair at the whole thing, one bunch of self-made experts who base their views on what they heard on the telly against the other bunch who did the same
Sorry robocod but that's rubbish. I'v studied politics and economics so don't try and make me out to be some sort of Neanderthal. I actually wouldn't have been that unhappy with a brexit if I could've read a coherent economic plan devised by a renowned economist or an economic body .there isn't one and there isn't a single organisation or government who thought us leaving was a good idea. As I said on another post the brexiteers have led us into the middle of a dark forest and nobody has a clue as to the way out
Regarding the movements in the stock market, it may be useful to not just look at the FTSE 100 which is comprised of mostly multinational companies which happen to have their headquarters in this country. The FTSE 100 bounced back a bit following the initial flurry of trading as it so often does.
It is actually the FTSE 250 which might be a better indication as to the market's view of implications of the vote as this is the next biggest 150 companies, most of which are based in the UK alone. This remains over 7% down and is a good bit lower than at the time of last year's election.
I have to admit that I didn't watch too much of the coverage in the build up to the vote, but the only academic economist I remember seeing interviewed who supported the Leave campaign was the uber-Tory and arch-Eurosceptic Patrick Minford. He's about as right-wing as they come in the economics field - a massively pro (completely) free trade Thatcherite and a big supporter of Milton Friedman whose trickle-down nonsense has basically screwed us all over since the 1980s and has been thoroughly discredited in recent years. Other than that, I can't think of a single economic body, either academic or business-based, which thinks that Brexit will be anything but disastrous.
Be so ironic if we swapped all the mainly young, working migrants from the EU for a load of retirees who really do clog up our NHS
What a grand and noble statement from the so called Fishy intelligencia, Bordering on ageism, once again another comment from a younger generation with total lack of respect for their elders. You will get progressively older as do all of us, and with that comes infirmities, i hope for your sake and others, there will still be a NHS there for you when you become a "retiree" .
Good God, hasn't there been enough bitterness during the referendum campaign without creating more after it. I can well understand the disappointment from those who voted remain, I've been disappointed in the past with election results, thats democracy, but i haven't slagged off people who voted the other way.
In fifty years of voting in every election i have never once been swayed by listening to any politician , in fact most of them are liars anyway, and anyone who is persuaded by what they tell you can't know their own mind. Gut feeling is always best, some you win, some you lose, thats life.
No one knows what will happen now, we didn't forty years ago when we were shanghaied into joining what was then the Common market, we certainly didn't know it would turn into the beurocratic and no doubt corrupt organisation it is today. Someone posted earlier that we should have stayed and left it to those we elected to re -negotiate, well, they haven't been able to do so in forty years so it was never going to happen in the next forty.
I could go on and on but i won't. Stop being so bloody nasty and bitter toward those that didn't vote the way YOU wanted, (there are over a million and and quarter of us) and were not all stupid, and were not all old.
And going back to Chris's point earlier, I do strongly believe that a high proportion of the people who voted out are extremely thick people who based their decision on lies and untruths. I saw loads of it peddled on facebook by family and friends who I personally know are as thick as pigshit. The hysteria on polling day that there was an M15 conspiracy to rig the vote was typical of the mentality and level of education of many. My work colleague worked in a voting station and said 75% of the people where coming in and insisting on having a pen rather than a pencil 'coz it'll be rubbed out and changed otherwise'.
I don't begrudge any person who voted out if they genuinely looked into it carefully and decided based on a reasonable judgement. What I find infuriating is that the difference in votes was less than 2 million and I am certain that there were more than 2 million fuckwits who voted out on the basis if lies.
My feelings exactly. I have 2 nephews who voted out and they haven't got a clue about the issues outside of immigration. Their only knowledge of Europe is getting drunk in Magaluf.
Some of the doom merchants on here are doing their best to get business, helped by the media of course.
The only proof that leaving was the right move will be in years to come. There is going to be a 2 year process to leave with most of what is in place staying in place. Germany and France already stating they want to do business, as predicted and why wouldn't they, we are their biggest market, tariffs being offset against lower corporation tax.
Some of the claims on here are very chicken little esq, with some of the whining hilarious. Job losses because we leave the EU, we have had thousands of job losses because of the EU, with EU funding relocating businesses to other countries with our money.
You don't look how someone treats you to judge them, you look at how they treat others. If the EU is so great why did it treat Greece the way it did.
Small businesses are the backbone of this country, at least they can now breathe easier.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
And going back to Chris's point earlier, I do strongly believe that a high proportion of the people who voted out are extremely thick people who based their decision on lies and untruths..
Its basic common sense as well. Immigration wasnt properly controlled under government in recent years and many people had had enough amongst other things.Now were out there is better chance of this being better controlled. This has nothing to do with academia or elitist intelligent values amongst some eg Iam cleverer than you its about basic common sense eg to many people had come into a small island in a relativly short period of time. Likewise David Attenborough cites the wider problems of overpopulation in the world which affects the very fabric of the planet in which we live in.Its not just a numbers issue in the UK but a worldwide wide one as well .To many people in parts of the world which affects the sustainability of that area in which they live in
For me voting leave wasn't just about immigration it was about democracy, you know that democracy that was taken from us without our consent. The democracy that holds to account Politicians and makes them abide by the rules and if they don't they are voted out or in the case of the expenses scandal, imprisonment. You can't do this to un-elected bureaucrats who splash our cash on what they want. There is no accountability, you can't remove them or take them to court and you certainly don't know where the money has gone.
Lobbyists run the EU, big corporations run the EU, the EU is just a front.
Some of you have short memories, because of the EU quotas cost hundreds of people their jobs on the fish docks, some two or more times over, as quotas cut deeper and deeper and fish merchant after fish merchant went to the wall. I saw first hand how the EU robbed hundreds of Grimsby lads jobs because I was one of them. It was great of the EU though to allow other countries to fish our waters and then graciously allow us buy the fish we used to catch. I, like many, had to move away to find work. It also makes it easy for lazy politicians to blame the EU and do nothing.
The EU has funded more companies to relocate from the UK than to it, costing UK jobs.
What is the problem with an Australian type immigration control, at least we can either refuse entry or remove rapists, murderers and pedophiles, something we can't do under the EU. Immigration is good for the country but only if you let in the right people with the skills you are short of.
Aren't you a little bit curious as to why no leaders of the EU countries made a real effort to sway British voters to remain, only Obama's threat of you'll be at the back of the line. Aren't you curious why the EU didn't explain how it works, it's values and why there is 5 presidents.
Which ever way the vote may have gone, there was always going to be repercussions, you take few knocks and then you get up again. The EU has big plans that don't involve your say, a bit like it is now.
It's interesting you state you voted out because democracy and unelected bureaucrats.
Brussels works like this: the (unelected) commission, headed by 28 (now 27) commissioners appointed by the member states, proposes laws, in areas where national governments allow them to. To come into force, these must then be approved by majorities in both the council of ministers, made up of (mostly elected) EU ministers, and parliament (elected).
The term bureaucratic is interesting too. EU has 55,000 civil servants, the UK has 440,000.
Democratic” can be defined in different ways. The EU looks less democratic than most countries, for example. But some might also say a country with a hereditary monarchy, an unelected upper house and a parliamentary majority based on 35% of the popular vote is not very democratic either.
Maybe we aren't as democratic as you believe.
You are right about the power of big corporations controling things of course. It's an interesting question if those corporations will now have more control over a small, possibly isolated, island rather an entire multinational bloc.
At the end of the day, if you voted to leave on those issues. I have no complaint against you. I can't argue your points are wrong, only time will tell us. Your arguments seem reasoned and that you look into the reasons. I disagree with you but I can understand your frustrations.
I think what most of the remain camp believe is that the vote to leave was swung by people voting to leave because of the wrong reasons. Whether that was because of xenophobic reasons (I have seen this first hand so I know it exists). People believing the clear lies the Leave camp put up as their main campaign points (£350 million on the NHS, the backtracking they are already doing on immigration or the promise to immediately enact article 50) or the protest vote from under funded area (this is successive governments fault not the EU's).
This leaves us with a sense of frustration and feeling cheated. Also, I think there is a little guilt there that most of the passion from the Remain campaign has only come out once defeated. The Leave campaign had this passion in abundance during the campaign.
I have no argument with someone like yourself who has looked at the issues and decided there own mind on reason. Unfortunately, I've heard far too many people give very unreasoned arguments.
I'm in my forties,working class and i have been to uni. I started at the beginning being 60/40 LEAVE and after listening to all the arguments ended up being 100% LEAVE. The EU is facing 'three crises at once': the economic crisis, which has seen a bailout of Greece and deleterious growth across southern European countries; the migration crisis, which has caused the suspension of the Schengen arrangement; and the security crisis, in which major attacks in Brussels and Paris have claimed hundreds of lives. In each and every case, the EU is showing that it cannot solve these problems. It simply does not have the solutions, and people are getting fed up with it. Only time will tell if i made the right choice, but in my mind the 'status-quo' just wasn't good enough.
First of all I didn't vote in the end. Peoples first reaction seems to be to raise an eyebrow or mock you for not voting. They'll say things like every vote matters. For me it is a very complex issue and could see lots of arguments for both sides and could never get my head fully around all the facts (which I think alot of people and both sides were the same but felt strong towards one direction so went with it) Now I see alot of remain voters complaining that leavers didn't know what they were doing, while some in their complaining accidentally revealing that they don't understand what they are talking about either.
Two views that have suprised me or opened my mind to other issues though that i've heard since we have voted to leave that might make some people think on here.
The first was my step dad who lives in france was speaking to a young latvian who told him that in latvia there is major problems due to very high numbers of young people from their country leaving to seek opportunities in france germany and the uk. So rather than either thinking in fear about migration from these eastern countries turning up on our doorstep, or how great a multicultural society in places like london is for us and how much those migrants contribute to OUR society, think about how latvia and other similiar countries now are apparantly losing their ability to develop while places like berlin thrive. Not really a view to whether we are better in or out of the EU but more a look into some of the problems that the EU could be causing.
The other one that suprised me was my brother who holds more socialist types of views, actually voted brexit, but i've not had time to properly discuss it with him yet, but his views sounding alternative and interesting. So its not just all the same types of people who voted to leave.
Im annoyed by people signing a petition for another referendum, alot of the people into that sort of thing seem less the voices of reason and more the 'Im an entitled uni student and I think im more politically intellegent than most while not being able to empathise or see things from anyone elses point of view', Sweeping generalisation but its one from twitter which you see alot of that even when there isn't a referendum.
And going back to Chris's point earlier, I do strongly believe that a high proportion of the people who voted out are extremely thick people who based their decision on lies and untruths. I saw loads of it peddled on facebook by family and friends who I personally know are as thick as pigshit. The hysteria on polling day that there was an M15 conspiracy to rig the vote was typical of the mentality and level of education of many. My work colleague worked in a voting station and said 75% of the people where coming in and insisting on having a pen rather than a pencil 'coz it'll be rubbed out and changed otherwise'.
I don't begrudge any person who voted out if they genuinely looked into it carefully and decided based on a reasonable judgement. What I find infuriating is that the difference in votes was less than 2 million and I am certain that there were more than 2 million fuckwits who voted out on the basis if lies.
Gotta be extremely thick to post a comment like that.
Gotta be extremely thick to post a comment like that.
Not really, I'll introduce you to my Mum if you like - who is currently promoting the idea of Farage as Prime Minister on facebook. Alternatively I could send you facebook links to friends who have been re-posting untrue right wing (racist) propaganda for the last 3 months - with comments alongside such as 'nuff said'.
I'm interested to know what the brexiteers on here, who cite immigration as the biggest issue, expect to happen.
Do you expect that the EU nationals currently living in this country will be asked to go home? No
Do you expect that british nationals living in the EU will be asked to come home? No
Do you expect that immigration will be brought down to less than 100K/year? Yes
The idea is to control future immigration upon our needs , If we want fruit pickers they will be allowed in,
You might have to clean your own car soon though,
Thanks for the response. So, if the only way we can get a free trade deal with the EU is to allow free movement of people you will be pretty disappointed I take it? Also don't you think less than 100K is unrealistic given we already take in around 150K non EU nationals - which is controlled by us already?
Its basic common sense as well. Immigration wasnt properly controlled under government in recent years and many people had had enough amongst other things.Now were out there is better chance of this being better controlled. This has nothing to do with academia or elitist intelligent values amongst some eg Iam cleverer than you its about basic common sense eg to many people had come into a small island in a relativly short period of time. Likewise David Attenborough cites the wider problems of overpopulation in the world which affects the very fabric of the planet in which we live in.Its not just a numbers issue in the UK but a worldwide wide one as well .To many people in parts of the world which affects the sustainability of that area in which they live in
Quite obviously it is simply ridiculous to claim that everyone who voted Leave is "thick". I have a close friend some time poster on here who has a very good degree and is a successful business man who was Leave from the day the referendum was announced. Clearly with the exception of UKIP the debate cut across party political lines. There was the so'-called Lexit group from the left of the Labour party who put across very compelling arguments for Leave none of which bore any resemblence at all to the arguments put forward about immigration from the Right. The issues were massively complex and in reality it was impossible to conclude that either option was 100% right.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
In fifty years of voting in every election i have never once been swayed by listening to any politician , in fact most of them are liars anyway, and anyone who is persuaded by what they tell you can't know their own mind. Gut feeling is always best, some you win, some you lose, thats life.
Nice to know our future has been decided by people's gut feelings.
Just to be clear - I've not said "everyone", I said enough to swing the balance to exit.
Fair enough. It wasnt really aimed at you. That's why I didn't quote your post. Unfortunately for the Leave camp there are plenty of bits of video evidence to support your view. Had Remain won then the same level of scrutiny may have been employed by the media and we might have got a shock. I consider myself reasonably intelligent but if I was asked in the street such a question as someone not particularly skilled in getting my point across in public I may come across as a bit daft.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
Have a bit of faith in your own country we will be better of you wait and see.
It's not really about sore losers though is it? Whoever negotiates our exit from the E.U. should do so knowing that in the great scheme of things the majority for Leave was pretty small. This country will do better post-Brexit if there is some evidence of unity. Had the vote gone the other way there would have been an equal amount of biaching. I heard Farage live on telly on Thursday night when he thought that the vote was lost (about 11.30 p.m.) that it was because the Government had extended the deadline for registration by 48 hours! Then we had the ridiculous conspiracy theory regarding pens and pencils....
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
It's interesting you state you voted out because democracy and unelected bureaucrats.
Brussels works like this: the (unelected) commission, headed by 28 (now 27) commissioners appointed by the member states, proposes laws, in areas where national governments allow them to. To come into force, these must then be approved by majorities in both the council of ministers, made up of (mostly elected) EU ministers, and parliament (elected).
The term bureaucratic is interesting too. EU has 55,000 civil servants, the UK has 440,000.
Democratic” can be defined in different ways. The EU looks less democratic than most countries, for example. But some might also say a country with a hereditary monarchy, an unelected upper house and a parliamentary majority based on 35% of the popular vote is not very democratic either.
Maybe we aren't as democratic as you believe.
You are right about the power of big corporations controling things of course. It's an interesting question if those corporations will now have more control over a small, possibly isolated, island rather an entire multinational bloc.
At the end of the day, if you voted to leave on those issues. I have no complaint against you. I can't argue your points are wrong, only time will tell us. Your arguments seem reasoned and that you look into the reasons. I disagree with you but I can understand your frustrations.
I think what most of the remain camp believe is that the vote to leave was swung by people voting to leave because of the wrong reasons. Whether that was because of xenophobic reasons (I have seen this first hand so I know it exists). People believing the clear lies the Leave camp put up as their main campaign points (£350 million on the NHS, the backtracking they are already doing on immigration or the promise to immediately enact article 50) or the protest vote from under funded area (this is successive governments fault not the EU's).
This leaves us with a sense of frustration and feeling cheated. Also, I think there is a little guilt there that most of the passion from the Remain campaign has only come out once defeated. The Leave campaign had this passion in abundance during the campaign.
I have no argument with someone like yourself who has looked at the issues and decided there own mind on reason. Unfortunately, I've heard far too many people give very unreasoned arguments.
Fair comments MarinerMal, however, we are one of the most under represented countries by population, for every 800,000 Uk citizens we have 1 MEP, for Ireland it is 400,000 = 1 MEP, and Malta if I remember rightly for every one Malta citizens is worth 12 UK citizens for MEP's, that is grossly undemocratic.
The lobbyists control in Brussels is vast, 2nd only to Washington, we of course get lobbying in the UK but we also have accountability. So it is public if 3 major corporations get together to make a road map that suits their business with our money.
Civil servants, we have the MOD, pensions office, it would be more interesting if you had posted how many civil servants working in legislation. How many of that 55,000 are British. As for the house of Lords, I've never liked that but it has been changed by Government and is accountable. The Queen has no power but the debate whether she is value for money is for another time.
The NHS point is also a good one to bring up, how much does Germany, France, and a host of other countries claim off our NHS compared to what we claim off theirs, the figures are an eye opener to how much we are being fleeced. The amount of medical tourists is figure that would shock people.
I fully agree that every government has left large areas of the north to rot, the EU exacerbated that issue by forcing a policy were thousands of low skilled workers mop up the remaining work.
You are right again that many people have made their mind up by which way they voted, this was on both sides not just leave. The debates leading up to the vote were extremely poor by both sides.
We are the first to leave, how we get treated will open people's eyes to how the EU unelected bureaucrats act, the EU didn't even try to keep us in.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
Quite obviously it is simply ridiculous to claim that everyone who voted Leave is "thick". I have a close friend some time poster on here who has a very good degree and is a successful business man who was Leave from the day the referendum was announced. Clearly with the exception of UKIP the debate cut across party political lines. There was the so'-called Lexit group from the left of the Labour party who put across very compelling arguments for Leave none of which bore any resemblence at all to the arguments put forward about immigration from the Right. The issues were massively complex and in reality it was impossible to conclude that either option was 100% right.
You also got a friend on here who voted out who is thick, me
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
It's just sheer arrogance by those on the remain side on here to say that those who voted leave are thick and easily led, how pathetic and sad to see such bitterness a classic case of clutching at straws to try and justify losing a democratic vote.
I wonder just how many of the 48% that lost the vote had voted IN because of fear and lies? The establishment threw everything at us including the kitchen sink we had listen to scare story after scare story. My work manager for example told me he was edging to vote for out until Osbourne threatened us with the brexit budget!
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
I'm not going to say Leave voters are thick. As people say they come from a wide cross section of people.
What I will say though is that the referendum was flawed whoever won. First off its a vastly complex issue that I don't understand. I've done a lot of research on the topic and my girlfriend is incredibly knowledgeable about the EU and I still don't know the different chambers etc. I also think the vote has been influenced by dodgy stats and issues that aren't actually anything to do with the EU such as a protest vote against the lack of investment in the north east and East Midlands.
Finally I think both leave and remain should have given a clear propostion (similar to a manifesto) of what people were voting for. Remain had this partly with Cameron's negotiation. I honestly think that in 3 years when people realise what they have voted for they will regret. There is no going back. Once we are out we can't get back in ever. This not a general election were if a government f**ks up we vote in the other guys to sort the mess out.
Not really, I'll introduce you to my Mum if you like - who is currently promoting the idea of Farage as Prime Minister on facebook. Alternatively I could send you facebook links to friends who have been re-posting untrue right wing (racist) propaganda for the last 3 months - with comments alongside such as 'nuff said'.
Obviously you couldn't have helped having a Mum like that but i think you could be a little choosier about your friends. I do agree with you on one point, Farage is an odious human being who plays on peoples fears. Thanks for the offer about Facebook but i think ill pass on that one, i don't really want to read crap like what people are having for their tea. In the mean time, Clam Down Dear!!!
It's just sheer arrogance by those on the remain side on here to say that those who voted leave are thick and easily led, how pathetic and sad to see such bitterness a classic case of clutching at straws to try and justify losing a democratic vote.
I wonder just how many of the 48% that lost the vote had voted IN because of fear and lies? The establishment threw everything at us including the kitchen sink we had listen to scare story after scare story. My work manager for example told me he was edging to vote for out until Osbourne threatened us with the brexit budget!
I'm afraid its shear ignorance on your part. You are still saying "we had to listen to scare story after scare story" you know the ones:
The Scottish will look to split from us We won't get free trade and free movement of people Financial Instability for the next 5 years and very high likelihood of everyday costs going through the roof
Of course none of these are looking very likely are they? Certainly not as likely as being invaded by Turks and Albanians and all our women being raped or 350m extra a week for the NHS
I'm afraid its shear ignorance on your part. You are still saying "we had to listen to scare story after scare story" you know the ones:
The Scottish will look to split from us We won't get free trade and free movement of people Financial Instability for the next 5 years and very high likelihood of everyday costs going through the roof
Of course none of these are looking very likely are they? Certainly not as likely as being invaded by Turks and Albanians and all our women being raped or 350m extra a week for the NHS
Unless you can explain how the EU and how the 5 presidents work, who they are, we are all ignorant. Scare stories on both sides, the British public have been let down by politicians yet again regardless of what side you voted for. Instead of targeting those who failed us, it is easier for most to turn on each other.
An independent Scotland could be forced to join the euro, accept Schengen and lose the rebate. They will not get the current deal because that's for Britain, their deal would be far worse, a population of 5.2 million compared with England's population of 53 million, and Welsh 3 million. Scotland won't be the fish they think they are. Greece has a population of 11 million and look how they were treated. An independent Scotland would see thousands lose their jobs, UK government pensions offices in Glasgow would have to be moved to England, Military bases either shut down or handed over, and Trident moved to England. This would leave Scottish airspace and seas unprotected with the Russians flying / sailing / submerged in and out as they please.
The Irish issue can easily be solved, allow the free movement of people but if you come to the mainland you need a passport / visa.
Surely one woman raped by someone who doesn't deserve to be here is one too many.
We will trade with the world, and as most are forgetting join back with our commonwealth friends and family who by the way have said they are waiting to trade with us, the list doesn't end there, South Korea and many others speaking up.
We will be able to allow into our country with an Australian / Canadian immigration policy that suits our needs not the agenda of faceless policy / regulation bureaucrats.
Financial instability, we have had many recessions and recovered, the last big one in case you forgot was due to the banks and finance sector.
The EU is becoming more federalised, it's wants it's own army, it wants to tax EU citizens through giving you an EU tax code. The EU is the biggest threat to peace, it wants to front up to Russia because the EU wants to be taken seriously. The EU is a bully with it's threats and the way it acts. Just look at their tactics now Brexit is just a day old.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
Unless you can explain how the EU and how the 5 presidents work, who they are, we are all ignorant. Scare stories on both sides, the British public have been let down by politicians yet again regardless of what side you voted for. Instead of targeting those who failed us, it is easier for most to turn on each other.
An independent Scotland could be forced to join the euro, accept Schengen and lose the rebate. They will not get the current deal because that's for Britain, their deal would be far worse, a population of 5.2 million compared with England's population of 53 million, and Welsh 3 million. Scotland won't be the fish they think they are. Greece has a population of 11 million and look how they were treated. An independent Scotland would see thousands lose their jobs, UK government pensions offices in Glasgow would have to be moved to England, Military bases either shut down or handed over, and Trident moved to England. This would leave Scottish airspace and seas unprotected with the Russians flying / sailing / submerged in and out as they please.
The Irish issue can easily be solved, allow the free movement of people but if you come to the mainland you need a passport / visa.
Surely one woman raped by someone who doesn't deserve to be here is one too many.
We will trade with the world, and as most are forgetting join back with our commonwealth friends and family who by the way have said they are waiting to trade with us, the list doesn't end there, South Korea and many others speaking up.
We will be able to allow into our country with an Australian / Canadian immigration policy that suits our needs not the agenda of faceless policy / regulation bureaucrats.
Financial instability, we have had many recessions and recovered, the last big one in case you forgot was due to the banks and finance sector.
The EU is becoming more federalised, it's wants it's own army, it wants to tax EU citizens through giving you an EU tax code. The EU is the biggest threat to peace, it wants to front up to Russia because the EU wants to be taken seriously. The EU is a bully with it's threats and the way it acts. Just look at their tactics now Brexit is just a day old.
I couldn't disagree more with your post which I guess sums up the predicament we're all in.
Unless you can explain how the EU and how the 5 presidents work, who they are, we are all ignorant - maybe we don't know all the inner workings of the EU so we did some research about what independent experts said.
The Irish issue can easily be solved - history suggests different.
Surely one woman raped by someone who doesn't deserve to be here is one too many- wow just wow
Financial instability, we have had many recessions and recovered, the last big one in case you forgot was due to the banks and finance sector - countries may recover but plenty of people don't
The EU is the biggest threat to peace - take a History lesson.
The point I was making is that the scaremongering from remain was mostly (not all I admit) realistic genuine concerns whereas the scaremongering from the remain camp was largely not in the slightest bit genuine and a lot of people, mostly the not very bright ones, voted out on the basis of incorrect facts. How anyone can honestly dispute that this is the case is beyond me and is kidding themselves - there is plenty of evidence to back it up,
Anyway, I'll give up on this thread for now and look forward to that prosperous and exciting new world that you predict.
What a grand and noble statement from the so called Fishy intelligencia, Bordering on ageism, once again another comment from a younger generation with total lack of respect for their elders. You will get progressively older as do all of us, and with that comes infirmities, i hope for your sake and others, there will still be a NHS there for you when you become a "retiree" .
Good God, hasn't there been enough bitterness during the referendum campaign without creating more after it. I can well understand the disappointment from those who voted remain, I've been disappointed in the past with election results, thats democracy, but i haven't slagged off people who voted the other way.
In fifty years of voting in every election i have never once been swayed by listening to any politician , in fact most of them are liars anyway, and anyone who is persuaded by what they tell you can't know their own mind. Gut feeling is always best, some you win, some you lose, thats life.
No one knows what will happen now, we didn't forty years ago when we were shanghaied into joining what was then the Common market, we certainly didn't know it would turn into the beurocratic and no doubt corrupt organisation it is today. Someone posted earlier that we should have stayed and left it to those we elected to re -negotiate, well, they haven't been able to do so in forty years so it was never going to happen in the next forty.
I could go on and on but i won't. Stop being so bloody nasty and bitter toward those that didn't vote the way YOU wanted, (there are over a million and and quarter of us) and were not all stupid, and were not all old.
It wasn't intended as ageist, just the reality that we have around 2 million mainly young migrants here and approximately the same number of Brits enjoying life abroad in Europe, many of them retired. It's obvious which group are more likely to need the resources of the NHS, so I was merely pointing out the irony of driving away the first group and being forced to accept the second. I wasn't having a dig at the old at all, just pointing our the absurdity of the claim that our NHS would be better off without the migrants.
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
I couldn't disagree more with your post which I guess sums up the predicament we're all in.
Unless you can explain how the EU and how the 5 presidents work, who they are, we are all ignorant - maybe we don't know all the inner workings of the EU so we did some research about what independent experts said.
The Irish issue can easily be solved - history suggests different.
Surely one woman raped by someone who doesn't deserve to be here is one too many- wow just wow
Financial instability, we have had many recessions and recovered, the last big one in case you forgot was due to the banks and finance sector - countries may recover but plenty of people don't
The EU is the biggest threat to peace - take a History lesson.
What did your independent experts say how the EU works and why there are 5 presidents.
The Irish issue is over border control points with leaving the EU, my solution with free movement but passport control into mainland, so there wouldn't be any tension. The claim previously being Ireland would descend into civil war should check points be brought in. What you are talking about isn't anything to do with Brexit but historical sectarianism.
Care to expand on your wow comment, I thought filtering out rapists, murderers and pedophiles is a good way to protect our citizens.
The best way to avoid mistakes is to look to the past. I did and Germany springs to mind, increased federalism, an army that did what it was told and millions dead. In case you don't keep up to date with current affairs, the EU wants an army so that it will be taken seriously, it wants to challenge Russia. It will struggle to do that once £10 billion a year is removed from it's coffers.
Fair comment about people maybe not recovering, some don't and some prosper. I will say this, I believe that with controlled immigration there will be more low skilled jobs available and if we can't fill those positions then an Australian type control will bring in who we need. Finding work in the UK is harder than it has ever been and with 300,000 more each year it will only get harder.
The EU failed at controlling refugees, once a person claims they are a refugee, they must be processed at the country they turn up in, not wander around to get the best benefits. The EU crippled Greece causing riots and a depression that the US would struggle to get out of.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
Anyway, I'll give up on this thread for now and look forward to that prosperous and exciting new world that you predict.
And so you should, be positive. Economists today have been saying that there will be a dawning realisation that everything has changed and nothing has changed. For the vast majority of UK companies it will be a case of business as usual on Monday. This isn’t the death of capitalism – companies have been through more severe tests in the past and many have passed with flying colours. A report commissioned by Woodford Investment Management found that Brexit was unlikely to have a significant economic effect – positive or negative - over the long term. In the meantime trade will continue – German car manufacturers will still want to sell cars here, and UK businesses will still export to Europe. It is in nobody’s interest not to negotiate good trade agreements during this period. In the meantime monetary policy is likely to remain supportive, with a rise in interest rates off the table for the foreseeable future and potentially even more quantitative easing from the Bank of England.
I'm in my forties,working class and i have been to uni. I started at the beginning being 60/40 LEAVE and after listening to all the arguments ended up being 100% LEAVE. The EU is facing 'three crises at once': the economic crisis, which has seen a bailout of Greece and deleterious growth across southern European countries; the migration crisis, which has caused the suspension of the Schengen arrangement; and the security crisis, in which major attacks in Brussels and Paris have claimed hundreds of lives. In each and every case, the EU is showing that it cannot solve these problems. It simply does not have the solutions, and people are getting fed up with it. Only time will tell if i made the right choice, but in my mind the 'status-quo' just wasn't good enough.
I cannot see that these crises are going to go away because we are outside of the EU. The economic crisis remains, and it's not gone away more, this country still lives way beyond its means (http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/), like most of the so-called developed world, and all our economies will remain intertwined - I think Japan dropped 9% on the day after Brexit, more than us! Greece obviously affected the Eurozone more than us, but we haven't washed our hands of it by any means. As usual, everyone buries their head in the sand about the national debt - even the tories haven't managed to stop it increasing, and the chances of doing so look very bleak now (http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/unitedkingdom).
The migration crisis originates outside the EU, migrants are still going to present themselves to every country including us, people will still want to get in the UK, and we'll still have to accept some. The British actually did more to cause this crisis in Iraq and Syria where many of them come from as we invaded it when the rest of the EU countries were opposed to it.
The terror attacks we've had to suffer too and the terrorists aren't going to go away because we don't belong to the EU any more. If we do anything as a result of their actions then they have succeeded. Once again you could argue we're more to blame than the other European countries in the first place for the existence of Isis which has gone on to inspire disaffected young people around the world, and will continue to do so for some while
Yeah the EU can't solve these problems but it wasn't designed to, it's primarily set up as an economic union to facilitate trade. The UK government won't be able to solve them either, unless this country becomes a self-contained bubble that never interacts with the outside world.
I think leaving the EU will turn out to be as disastrous a decision as that to invade Iraq in 2003, a knee-jerk reaction to a massively exaggerated problem, with no plan as to what happens afterwards, and years of fallout and ensuing problems.
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
Frankly, the result and myriad of implications absolutely terrify me.
I voted remain. But the name calling, finger pointing and fighting is not going to help anyone. Those of us on the losing side have to respect the decision and get on with it.
One good thing to come out of this. For some years I thought that democracy in this country was a myth. This result at least shows that the system isn't quite as rotten as I thought it was.
Extricating us from this is going to be an absolute flipping nightmare.
And I still don't think Boris ever expected to win.
Frankly, the result and myriad of implications absolutely terrify me.
I voted remain. But the name calling, finger pointing and fighting is not going to help anyone. Those of us on the losing side have to respect the decision and get on with it.
One good thing to come out of this. For some years I thought that democracy in this country was a myth. This result at least shows that the system isn't quite as rotten as I thought it was.
Extricating us from this is going to be an absolute flipping nightmare.
And I still don't think Boris ever expected to win.
Pretty much how I feel about the whole issue.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
And I still don't think Boris ever expected to win.
I don't think Cameron ever expected to lose. He gave us this referendum to pacify his own eurosceptics and UKIP, expecting to win 60/40, and putting the subject to bed once and for all. His renegotiations amounted to nothing, and the EU gave him nothing in return. Boris and Gove rebelled, and from thereon in he was always on a losing battle.
I don't think Cameron ever expected to lose. He gave us this referendum to pacify his own eurosceptics and UKIP, expecting to win 60/40, and putting the subject to bed once and for all. His renegotiations amounted to nothing, and the EU gave him nothing in return. Boris and Gove rebelled, and from thereon in he was always on a losing battle.
The truth is if Cameron had any doubts at all of losing,
He would not have given us the vote in the first place.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
I'm afraid its shear ignorance on your part. You are still saying "we had to listen to scare story after scare story" you know the ones:
The Scottish will look to split from us How is this a scare story bye bye
We won't get free trade and free movement of people we don't won't free movement of people
Financial Instability for the next 5 years and very high likelihood of everyday costs going through the roof Blatant scaremongering
I was thinking more -
Joe Cox death was because of brexit
The destruction of western pollitical civilisation
Europe risks war and genocide
Calais migrant camps to move to UK
Back of the queue for a trade deal with the USA
House prices will collapse
Leaving EU membership will cost £3000 to each UK household
The CBI claim of £100 billion loss to our economy and a loss of a million jobs (CBI u-turned yesterday saying we will prosper 😂)
And the Brexit budget!! to name just a few
Even Jimmy Krankie warned project fear may backfire
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
Can't the Queen just veto the whole thing? She's spent 64 years and agreed to everything, she must have tempted for once in her life to actually be a head of state and not a paper pusher.
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
Regarding Cameron not expecting to lose, let's not forget that the referendum was only on the table because he never thought he would win a majority in the election last year. He made the offer to get the backing of the Eurosceptic side of his party under the assumption that the best he could hope for was a coalition which would have vetoed any such referendum. In the event, he was hoisted by his own petard.
His inept attempts at politicking for short term political gain have left the whole nation as well as Europe in turmoil and will see the end of the Union. In future years, he'll surely be seen as one of the most inept Prime Ministers the country has seen. Unless Boris takes over the reins, of course as you can only imagine how bad a PM that devious, self-serving, dishonest sack of shite would be.
Can't the Queen just veto the whole thing? She's spent 64 years and agreed to everything, she must have tempted for once in her life to actually be a head of state and not a paper pusher.
A Commonwealth Realm is a country which has The Queen as its Monarch. The Queen is Head of State (Queen) of 15 Commonwealth realms in addition to the UK. She is also Head of the Commonwealth itself, a voluntary association of 53 independent countries. From Australia to Antigua, Canada to Cameroon, the Commonwealth is a remarkable international organisation, spanning every geographical region, religion and culture. It exists to foster international co-operation and trade links between people all over the world
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
Seems to be a couple of ideas emerging. One is that MPs will block us leaving the single market on the basis that the referendum ok'd us leaving the eu but it didn't specify the single market. This would leave us with a Norway type arrangement, out of the eu but still bound by its rules and the obligation to freedom of movement. The other is that there will be a special deal for us to become a sort of associate member, sort of in but not really in. The this is based on the notion that the politics of mutual necessity will kick in I.e.the French and Germans need to trade with us as much as we trade with them so the trade deals will be done quite quickly and they won't take as long as other deals because we already have much of the eu law already ingrained in our law. Basically what is proposed is exactly what we had before but we don't have any influence over eu policy but do have that ultimate prize of being able to say we aren't in Europe and don't do what the eu tell us coz we're British and independent. You couldn't make it up..... Where's ffs when you need him?
Seems to be a couple of ideas emerging. One is that MPs will block us leaving the single market on the basis that the referendum ok'd us leaving the eu but it didn't specify the single market. This would leave us with a Norway type arrangement, out of the eu but still bound by its rules and the obligation to freedom of movement. The other is that there will be a special deal for us to become a sort of associate member, sort of in but not really in. The this is based on the notion that the politics of mutual necessity will kick in I.e.the French and Germans need to trade with us as much as we trade with them so the trade deals will be done quite quickly and they won't take as long as other deals because we already have much of the eu law already ingrained in our law. Basically what is proposed is exactly what we had before but we don't have any influence over eu policy but do have that ultimate prize of being able to say we aren't in Europe and don't do what the eu tell us coz we're British and independent. You couldn't make it up..... Where's ffs when you need him?
It was a ridiculously simple question: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?" for a many-headed beast like the EU!
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
It was a ridiculously simple question: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?" for a many-headed beast like the EU!
Well in a funny sort of way it does give our politicians a certain amount of wriggle room. Certainly going to concentrate the great minds of Europe and the U.K. As to how best to work this out
Yeh i've seen alot of interesting opinions and options coming from economists from here and other countries on the news, none of it sounding too scary, its going to be an interesting time
meanwhile on twitter its remain voters still going on and on and on about not getting their way, and patronisingly going on about this petition asking leave voters to sign it treating them like stupid children who've wet themselves
Yeh i've seen alot of interesting opinions and options coming from economists from here and other countries on the news, none of it sounding too scary, its going to be an interesting time
meanwhile on twitter its remain voters still going on and on and on about not getting their way, and patronisingly going on about this petition asking leave voters to sign it treating them like stupid children who've wet themselves
We have a referendum that did not go the way the remain wanted,
So they all sign up for another vote,
This time they win , just,
So the out group sign up for another vote,
This goes on for years,
In the end the EU says just fook off.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
Yeh i've seen alot of interesting opinions and options coming from economists from here and other countries on the news, none of it sounding too scary, its going to be an interesting time
meanwhile on twitter its remain voters still going on and on and on about not getting their way, and patronisingly going on about this petition asking leave voters to sign it treating them like stupid children who've wet themselves
I see this must be straight out of the 6th form common room an anti democracy petition what a bunch of sad losers these leftys only want democracy if it suits them and the funny thing is the majority signing the petition are not even British.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
Seems to be a couple of ideas emerging. One is that MPs will block us leaving the single market on the basis that the referendum ok'd us leaving the eu but it didn't specify the single market. This would leave us with a Norway type arrangement, out of the eu but still bound by its rules and the obligation to freedom of movement. The other is that there will be a special deal for us to become a sort of associate member, sort of in but not really in. The this is based on the notion that the politics of mutual necessity will kick in I.e.the French and Germans need to trade with us as much as we trade with them so the trade deals will be done quite quickly and they won't take as long as other deals because we already have much of the eu law already ingrained in our law. Basically what is proposed is exactly what we had before but we don't have any influence over eu policy but do have that ultimate prize of being able to say we aren't in Europe and don't do what the eu tell us coz we're British and independent. You couldn't make it up..... Where's ffs when you need him?
It is far from over and it will go one or two ways, the vote will be pulled by various means or we will get free and some sectors of EU will try and make an example of us. If it isn't resolved within the 2 years we will revert to WTO which means tariff's, the Germans and French have already said they want it to go smoothly with the vast amount of business we do with them it makes sense.
What people are worried over is the constant threats, we used to trade with the common wealth of 53 countries with very few problems, that was stopped by the EU doing the deals for us, a limiting bureaucratic faceless deals done behind closed doors which we have no say. We can do deals with Africa meaning they can prosper and not rely on aid all the time. The EU is insular and backward and some people seem happy with the way things are without knowing what is going on and are quite happy to leave the tap on whilst being on a water meter, talking about wastage here in the EU.
It's to be expected that what ever side lost accusations and demeaning of people was going to happen. Typical cat calls of little Englander, bigot, xenophobe, thick, racist etc etc. I would rather be called all those than a traitor, someone who doesn't care that an unelected entity can ruin towns and cities in this country with regulations and policies that suit big corporations who are already fat with cash. Wait till your world is touch by their policies and see how your views change over night. The money men and unelected decision makers don't know who you are and don't care, you are tax fodder, open your wallet whilst they take what they want. For every penny they take out of our country that is a penny that could be spend here on our services, our needs.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
What pisses me off the most is that basically what we're saying is we think we're better than everyone else, and we both don't need their help, nor do we want to help anyone else. That isn't the British way as far as I'm concerned. I don't identify myself as that person.
I think we're going to find very quickly that the rest of the world doesn't give one excrement about us, and when Scotland re-vote to leave the UK (which is clearly going to happen looking at how they voted to remain in the EU) as well and in fact the whole of the United Kingdom becomes fractured, we'll find ourselves standing very alone.
Scotland flipping off wont be bad as due to the funding they receive from the UK treasury they get more spent per person than us in England as well as having free benefits that the rest of us have to pay for.
Who knew it, turkeys do actually vote for Christmas!
Younger people voted overwhelmingly to remain. And so it looks like the older generations have swung this in Leave's favour due to their latent xenophobia. The people for whom this vote mattered the least have swung it off their own bloated sense of nationalistic self importance. Way to go pops!
And isn't it funny how a lot of people who voted leave are the same kind of people who make the most commotion when Argentina pipe up about The Falklands or Spain make noises about Gibraltar. Yet now they've left Gibraltar out to dry, seemingly without a care.
Oh and goodbye United Kingdom.
What a great day.
As one who may be classed as an older voter may I say why don't you intercourse right off, I have as much right to vote as anyone else did, you sad loser.
It was actually setup by an "out" voter that expected us to remain in, what an absolute numpty!
Beat me to it neilo. To be fair though it is reputed that it was launched well before the referendum. What is done is done. All parties should be addressing how to minimise the effect of such a decision on the population as a whole.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
I see this must be straight out of the 6th form common room an anti democracy petition what a bunch of sad losers these leftys only want democracy if it suits them and the funny thing is the majority signing the petition are not even British.
I've stated my belief in democracy elsewhere. It's a pity you haven't yet grasped that the whole E.U. debate cut across party lines and redefined political debate in this country. It may have escaped your notice but we currently have a U.K. government with a majority (which if I'm correct in remembering you celebrated just over 12 months ago) which whatever I think about it are the ONLY people who can move the decoupling from Europe forward. Perhaps you should leave Labour to its own civil war and look to your mates on the right.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
Seems to be a couple of ideas emerging. One is that MPs will block us leaving the single market on the basis that the referendum ok'd us leaving the eu but it didn't specify the single market. This would leave us with a Norway type arrangement, out of the eu but still bound by its rules and the obligation to freedom of movement. The other is that there will be a special deal for us to become a sort of associate member, sort of in but not really in. The this is based on the notion that the politics of mutual necessity will kick in I.e.the French and Germans need to trade with us as much as we trade with them so the trade deals will be done quite quickly and they won't take as long as other deals because we already have much of the eu law already ingrained in our law. Basically what is proposed is exactly what we had before but we don't have any influence over eu policy but do have that ultimate prize of being able to say we aren't in Europe and don't do what the eu tell us coz we're British and independent. You couldn't make it up..... Where's ffs when you need him?
But what did you expect?! Cameron specifically said just that in one of the TV debates, to give ourselves a decent chance of taking part in trade deals we still need to keep hold of the European market somehow. But people were so caught up on immigration lies, the Turkey lies and the £350m lies, that they didn't bother to actually read up on the actual facts. Because those things suited a lot of people's views.
What they've voted for is obeying by the majority of laws people wanted out of originally, only this time we've lost the security we gained with it and the seat on the table having votes on these very laws (we lost a tiny fraction of votes on that table by the way)
This whole saga has made me ashamed to be British at times, the pure casual racism of people is astonishing. The amount of people who based their views on Brexit based on their views of immigrants is absolutely horrifying to see. Even more so that so many people came out in support of Brexit and have been sold a total lie by a bafoon who saw it as a way into number 10 and a xenophobic pillock.
I've asked people many times this week why the voted out, the paying into the EU and immigration are at the top of the list (in fact I'm still to hear a different reason) both have which have since been conceded as total bullshit. People are so blinded by their bigotry that they've no idea what the hell they even voted for.
I've asked people many times this week why the voted out, the paying into the EU and immigration are at the top of the list (in fact I'm still to hear a different reason) both have which have since been conceded as total bullshit. People are so blinded by their bigotry that they've no idea what the hell they even voted for.
But what did you expect?! Cameron specifically said just that in one of the TV debates, to give ourselves a decent chance of taking part in trade deals we still need to keep hold of the European market somehow. But people were so caught up on immigration lies, the Turkey lies and the £350m lies, that they didn't bother to actually read up on the actual facts. Because those things suited a lot of people's views.
What they've voted for is obeying by the majority of laws people wanted out of originally, only this time we've lost the security we gained with it and the seat on the table having votes on these very laws (we lost a tiny fraction of votes on that table by the way)
This whole saga has made me ashamed to be British at times, the pure casual racism of people is astonishing. The amount of people who based their views on Brexit based on their views of immigrants is absolutely horrifying to see. Even more so that so many people came out in support of Brexit and have been sold a total lie by a bafoon who saw it as a way into number 10 and a xenophobic pillock.
I've asked people many times this week why the voted out, the paying into the EU and immigration are at the top of the list (in fact I'm still to hear a different reason) both have which have since been conceded as total bullshit. People are so blinded by their bigotry that they've no idea what the hell they even voted for.
Just because people said immigration it does not make them racist,
My wife is half Danish and I am 25% German but we both voted out,
If over the last 20 years the Labour then the Cons/Libs governments had built enough council and low cost housing,
Invested in the NHS sufficient enough to cope for all the extra numbers coming in ,
The remain side might have won,
People not getting adequate housing and long waits to see a doctor persuaded most to vote out,
One young lady on the box the other day said she had been on the housing list for years,
BUT
When some new council houses were built near her they was given to immigrants who had only been in the country a short while,
All the extra numbers are clogging up the system, not the immigrants fault,
Just the last few governments lack of forward planning,
So please do not call us racists.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
One thing I believe is that if it does go to pot and the Government is forced to make cuts it should be pensions and winter fuel allowance should be first to face cuts - I don't see why young people should have to pay for the decisions of the old.
All the extra numbers are clogging up the system, not the immigrants fault,
Just the last few governments lack of forward planning,
So please do not call us racists.
Parts of the UK now Pete resemble Poland .Its been a case of to much to soon and even Labour didnt anticipate the numbers that would come in when Blair opened up the floodgates
One thing I believe is that if it does go to pot and the Government is forced to make cuts it should be pensions and winter fuel allowance should be first to face cuts - I don't see why young people should have to pay for the decisions of the old.
Yes kill the old ones off and have another referendum.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
Just because people said immigration it does not make them racist,
My wife is half Danish and I am 25% German but we both voted out,
If over the last 20 years the Labour then the Cons/Libs governments had built enough council and low cost housing,
Invested in the NHS sufficient enough to cope for all the extra numbers coming in ,
The remain side might have won,
People not getting adequate housing and long waits to see a doctor persuaded most to vote out,
One young lady on the box the other day said she had been on the housing list for years,
BUT
When some new council houses were built near her they was given to immigrants who had only been in the country a short while,
All the extra numbers are clogging up the system, not the immigrants fault,
Just the last few governments lack of forward planning,
So please do not call us racists.
But this is the point. I have every sympathy with working class folk and people in areas affected by the social pressures that migration has brought being angry at the lack of infrastructure in place. I can completely sympathise with their plight, it is hard and the immigration doesn't make it any easier. However, voting out of the EU, in my opinion, was not the place to make that anger heard. Westminster needs shaking up, too long have both major parties abandoned large areas of the North in particular and not invested properly in housing, the NHS, schools and replacing lost industries.
But leaving the EU will not lead to an increase in investment, it will almost certainly lead to a decrease in construction. And the migrants won't go away, they'll still be here working and we might well see an increase in immigration before we formally leave as young people from countries like Romania try to get here before the gate is shut. So the social pressures will be the same, if not worse, but we'll have less tax returns if the economy goes into recession, which seems more than possible. Added to that is the loss of EU regeneration money and it could become a lot, lot worse before it gets any better.
I've yet to hear a valid reason for staying, what don't some of you understand about democracy.
Faceless bureaucrats run the EU, they make decisions by corporations lobbying them, making up regulations and deciding where the money goes. This is not democracy, you can't vote these people out or take them to court. Have any of you seen their own private shopping center, a shopping center that the public can't use. The EU is systematically destroying all countries within the EU, Merkal being the worst culprit and Greece being the prime example. The EU is heading for something far worse than the old communist Russia, it wants and army to bring to bear pressure on the Russians.
The common wealth have already stated that they want to do business with us, that's 53 countries which is double the the size of the EU.
Enjoy the video below, comforting words from our American cousins, maybe help some of the chicken little's calm down.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
The common wealth have already stated that they want to do business with us, that's 53 countries which is double the the size of the EU.
Are you taking the piss? Double the size of the EU?! Two of those countries have a population size comfortably smaller than Louth. 9 of them have populations smaller than Grimsby and Cleethorpes and 26 of them have populations smaller than Birmingham. 18 of these countries are smaller than the smallest EU member.
Not to mention one fifth of them are in Oceania which is a mere 9000 miles away and out of those 10 countries only three of them have populations bigger than 500,000. I'm sure we'll be getting loads of business from there.
Are you taking the piss? Double the size of the EU?! Two of those countries have a population size comfortably smaller than Louth. 9 of them have populations smaller than Grimsby and Cleethorpes and 26 of them have populations smaller than Birmingham.
Not to mention one fifth of them are in Oceania which is a mere 9000 miles away and out of those 10 countries only three of them have populations bigger than 500,000. I'm sure we'll be getting loads of business from there.
We did plenty of business with the common wealth before and there was no horrendous red tape, a much more cost effective way to do business.
The population of EU is under 750 million, population of Common Wealth is = find out and let me know.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
We did plenty of business with the common wealth before and there was no horrendous red tape, a much more cost effective way to do business.
The population of EU is under 750 million, population of Common Wealth is = find out and let me know.
Well no excrement sherlock it's bigger as it includes India but some of them are among the poorest countries in the world. Zambia has a population size roughly equivalent to that of the Netherlands but it has an economy less than 10% of the Netherlands. I know who I'd rather be trading with especially when one is just across a small stretch of water and the other is in the southern hemisphere.
Are you taking the piss? Double the size of the EU?! Two of those countries have a population size comfortably smaller than Louth. 9 of them have populations smaller than Grimsby and Cleethorpes and 26 of them have populations smaller than Birmingham. 18 of these countries are smaller than the smallest EU member.
Not to mention one fifth of them are in Oceania which is a mere 9000 miles away and out of those 10 countries only three of them have populations bigger than 500,000. I'm sure we'll be getting loads of business from there.
Lmfao.please don't let logic get in the way of a good rant. I was going to reply to his previous post but gave up as it as obviously a waste of time .he is obviously a very angry person having flailed against the eu, big business, rich people, the government, the council, civil servants et al. The referendum was a catalyst for every angry person to give a kick into the bollox of anyone and aeveryone in authority they felt deserved it. The eu was just the target, didn't matter if they weren't in the least bit responsible for the woe hat he voter was moaning about. Anyway we are where we are. We now just have to hope that we con our way out of this using the single market slight of hand and hope the morons are too busy waving their union jacks and singing rule Britannia to realise they've Beene shafted
Not to mention one fifth of them are in Oceania which is a mere 9000 miles away and out of those 10 countries only three of them have populations bigger than 500,000. I'm sure we'll be getting loads of business from there.
The important number here is GDP. Even with the UK included the commonwealths GDP per capita is is only $4500 which, if it was a nation, would make it the 132nd poorest nation in the world.
Reading these posts it is clear to me that the expression often used by G.W. Bush " soft bigotry of low expectations " applies to a lot of "remain " voters. These are my views in the politest possible way. Let,s try to think positive and show a bit of " British Bulldog " spirit. " Look on the bright side of life " instead of talking us down. Imagine Paul Hurst telling his team 5 minutes before a game against Man. Utd. " You are all crap "
The important number here is GDP. Even with the UK included the commonwealths GDP per capita is is only $4500 which, if it was a nation, would make it the 132nd poorest nation in the world.
Exactly. If the EU was a country it would have the highest GDP or second highest depending on your source. Not to mention generally countries trade more with closer countries for obvious reasons.
I've yet to hear a valid reason for staying, what don't some of you understand about democracy.
Well remaining part of the European single market is one. That must be worth something as even the Leave campaign wants to remain part of it. Unfortunately, if they do, it seems they will have to accept freedom of movement rules putting the issues of immigration a Leave vote was meant to solve, back on the table.
As I've stated previously, I understand your frustrations with how the EU is run and have no problem with your reasons for voting to leave. The EU has plenty wrong with it. I personally believed, when weighing up Leave to Remaining, we were better of Remaining because IMO the EU helped more than hindered us. As part of the EU we could still have lobbie for change and if you listen to some of the things said coming from Germany it seems this may well be very much on the cards now. Whether that will be the changes you seek remains to be seen.
However, it may well turn out a good decision, no can say it will or won't, we have to wait and see.
The frustration that still remains is the feeling people voted on sound bites from the Leave Campaign. £350 million to the NHS, controlling our borders and stopping immigration. Both have been backtracked on since.
So even if Leaving ends up being the correct choice I dont think we made that choice on the right criteria.
I've yet to hear a valid reason for staying, what don't some of you understand about democracy.
Faceless bureaucrats run the EU, they make decisions by corporations lobbying them, making up regulations and deciding where the money goes. This is not democracy, you can't vote these people out or take them to court. Have any of you seen their own private shopping center, a shopping center that the public can't use. The EU is systematically destroying all countries within the EU, Merkal being the worst culprit and Greece being the prime example. The EU is heading for something far worse than the old communist Russia, it wants and army to bring to bear pressure on the Russians.
The common wealth have already stated that they want to do business with us, that's 53 countries which is double the the size of the EU.
Enjoy the video below, comforting words from our American cousins, maybe help some of the chicken little's calm down.
So, you only understand democracy if you voted to leave? Thanks, that's obviously where I went wrong with voting remain. Damn!
Can't believe people think we can swap our trading partners right on our doorstep for our former colonies the other side of the world, and not notice any difference. If there is any hope of maintaining our standard of living then we have to at very least remain part of the single market,
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
I've yet to hear a valid reason for staying, what don't some of you understand about democracy.
Faceless bureaucrats run the EU, they make decisions by corporations lobbying them, making up regulations and deciding where the money goes. This is not democracy, you can't vote these people out or take them to court. Have any of you seen their own private shopping center, a shopping center that the public can't use. The EU is systematically destroying all countries within the EU, Merkal being the worst culprit and Greece being the prime example. The EU is heading for something far worse than the old communist Russia, it wants and army to bring to bear pressure on the Russians.
The common wealth have already stated that they want to do business with us, that's 53 countries which is double the the size of the EU.
Enjoy the video below, comforting words from our American cousins, maybe help some of the chicken little's calm down.
Not bothered watching the video but I can't recall a single decision by one of these "faceless bureaucrats" that has even vaguely bothered me. Incidentally the UK government has thousands of faceless, unelected bureaucrats too. We get one vote every five years for an MP, and one for a MEP, now we'll lose one of those votes and Europe will go on making decisions which affect us without us having any say.
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
Can't believe people think we can swap our trading partners right on our doorstep for our former colonies the other side of the world, and not notice any difference. If there is any hope of maintaining our standard of living then we have to at very least remain part of the single market,
Yeah but you clearly have no understanding of democracy. People who do know that we can start trading exponentially more with India and countries that are poorer but equally far away and that will comfortably make us wealthier .
Never mind the fact we currently do more than 4x as much trade with the Netherlands for example who are literally on our doorstep, we'll be going back to the glory days of the Empire.
Can't believe people think we can swap our trading partners right on our doorstep for our former colonies the other side of the world, and not notice any difference. If there is any hope of maintaining our standard of living then we have to at very least remain part of the single market,
A deal will be done Rob because we BUY more from the EU then we sell,
It will hurt them more than us, already Germany have said we should not fall out and remain friends,
Also we do a lot of trade wit China that could be greatly increased,
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
A deal will be done Rob because we BUY more from the EU then we sell,
It will hurt them more than us, already Germany have said we should not fall out and remain friends,
Also we do a lot of trade wit China that could be greatly increased,
Yes a deal will be done providing we sign up to freedom of movement. Then the main reason why a lot of people voted to leave will still be there... immigration!
Yes a deal will be done providing we sign up to freedom of movement. Then the main reason why a lot of people voted to leave will still be there... immigration!
There should be a new referendum with three choices when the new deal is reached:
1, Remain as we are now 2. Accept the new deal 3. Reject the new deal
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
Yes a deal will be done providing we sign up to freedom of movement. Then the main reason why a lot of people voted to leave will still be there... immigration!
No Rob a deal will be done without having to agree to free movement.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
A deal will be done Rob because we BUY more from the EU then we sell,
It will hurt them more than us, already Germany have said we should not fall out and remain friends,
Also we do a lot of trade wit China that could be greatly increased,
About 5% of our trade is with China and about 35% of that trade is exporting cars to them. Given that their economy has slowed down some what there might not be sufficient demand for them to greatly increase the number of cars from us so it's by no means certain that trade will "greatly increase".
I've given it some time before posting because I wanted to respond in a polite and measured way. Obviously, I'm very disappointed in the result but I won't rehash the arguments again. I think the tone in general after the result has been as toxic on both sides as it was before (not on here but in the wider populace). There have been a lot of claims of xenophobia and stupidity thrown around which is unfair and unhelpful. People like M93 have clearly done their research and made an informed decision which I respect even if I fundamentally disagree with their conclusions. Similarly, a tiny minority of the out voters have seen this as a green light to abuse our fellow UK citizens, which is abhorrent.
So how do we make progress? Personally, I'd like the powers that be to ignore the referendum and continue with business as usual. Sadly that's not going to happen so I think we need to sort a deal asap. Hopefully, some informal negotiations can be entered into ahead of any triggering of Article 50 but I don't see that happening. Therefore, we need a leadership team in place as soon as possible but hopefully not with Boris at the helm. I think we need a leader who can unite the country (or at least the Tories) and try and heal the divisions that have been created (or probably more accurately exposed). We also need a strong effective opposition either under Corbyn or someone else who again can try and unite their party. If the politicians drag their heels, the uncertainty will only make things worse.
As an indication of how real that threat is, one of my concerns prior to the vote was around a transfer of jobs abroad. That is sadly proving to be the case as a number of my clients are already looking into moving their head offices into the EU. I appreciate that some of you will say good riddance, but these are companies that employ a good number of people and pay significant amounts of tax in the UK.
We're heading into the unknown, and I hope the Leave camp are right that things will be better. My concern, as it has always been, is that they might not be.
One thing I believe is that if it does go to pot and the Government is forced to make cuts it should be pensions and winter fuel allowance should be first to face cuts - I don't see why young people should have to pay for the decisions of the old.
You really are a nincompoop, I know plenty of young people at our place of work that voted to leave.
As for pensions those that are receiving them will have likely paid N.I. contributions for probably 50 years so will be entitled to them no matter what your small mind believes.
No Rob a deal will be done without having to agree to free movement.
No it won't. The reason why is because the EU know that if they give us this deal then another handful of countries will look to exit and get the same deal. Obviously they are not going to do this because their agenda is to keep the EU together. They are ultimately more interested in keeping the EU together than keeping German Car Manufacturers happy.
There should be a new referendum with three choices when the new deal is reached:
1, Remain as we are now 2. Accept the new deal 3. Reject the new deal
Do an Irish deal ? Keep having a vote until the minority win ? Sounds fair to me ! We all eventually have at least 1 win. Brilliant. We could bring this rule into football If we are winning at 90 minutes blow the whistle if not have a replay.
One thing I believe is that if it does go to pot and the Government is forced to make cuts it should be pensions and winter fuel allowance should be first to face cuts - I don't see why young people should have to pay for the decisions of the old.
This is why we only have grownups in charge and teachers are normally a little cleverer than the children they teach. Go sit on the naughty step.
Its you who is living in dream world if you think we have come out the EU and the few benefits it gives us,
To then say , I know we came out because we wanted to control immigration only to agree to except free movement,,
What have you been drinking or are you not old enough to drink ?
Cheers
Not sure if you've been watching the news but most politicians are saying remaining in the single market is the most important issue even if that means that immigration cannot be controlled. Most people are taking about an emergency break which I may be wrong but I thought this was already in place as a member of the EU.
At the end of the day unless we impose passport controls between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK we don't have a chance of stopping freedom of movement. I can't see that going down well in N.Ireland especially when they voted to remain part of the EU.
One thing people never seem to mention is that our contributions to the EU are making places like Romania a more developed country. Therefore as living standards converge there is less demand to emigrate to the UK. People talk about Poland but it is a fairly developed country today. In fact parts of Western Poland are becoming better off than parts of East Germany as people are choosing to invest in Poland due to higher growth rates.
Well no excrement sherlock it's bigger as it includes India but some of them are among the poorest countries in the world. Zambia has a population size roughly equivalent to that of the Netherlands but it has an economy less than 10% of the Netherlands. I know who I'd rather be trading with especially when one is just across a small stretch of water and the other is in the southern hemisphere.
If I'm Sherlock then you must be Watson, I know furniture company that buys wooden furniture from India at a fraction of the cost it can get it from the EU, a deal with poor countries lifts more than few out of poverty and in turn that country relies less on aid. We also used to buy all sorts of products and food from the common wealth, they have suffered because of the EU.
Try thinking outside the box, remainers are so narrow minded, trading with the world is like shopping at a supermarket, if your happy with the corner shop and it's limited and pricey stock you'll never know the difference unless you venture further than the end of the street.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
If I'm Sherlock then you must be Watson, I know furniture company that buys wooden furniture from India at a fraction of the cost it can get it from the EU, a deal with poor countries lifts more than few out of poverty and in turn that country relies less on aid. We also used to buy all sorts of products and food from the common wealth, they have suffered because of the EU.
Try thinking outside the box, remainers are so narrow minded, trading with the world is like shopping at a supermarket, if your happy with the corner shop and it's limited and pricey stock you'll never know the difference unless you venture further than the end of the street.
Sorry you don't know what you are on about. One of the reasons Africa has performed so poorly economically is due to trade with former colonial countries instead of trading among themselves. You talk about cheap wood from India. Do you think this industry is sustainable, do you think the local population makes a lot from cheap wood?
By trading with these countries we import cheap primary products (eg. wood, coffee etc.) which have highly fluctuating prices meaning that there is a huge amount of uncertainty within their economy which deters investment. In return the wealthy of the less developed country simply import manufactured goods meaning that the country never develops a manufacturing industry (how China developed) as they can't compete.
If I'm Sherlock then you must be Watson, I know furniture company that buys wooden furniture from India at a fraction of the cost it can get it from the EU, a deal with poor countries lifts more than few out of poverty and in turn that country relies less on aid.
And tough crap to any British furniture makers, I suppose.
Regarding trade with Commonwealth countries, there certainly is plenty still (loads of beans and baby corn from Kenya, for example), but the main point is that they are all very far away. If we need to buy things other than foodstuffs, we're generally buying them from EU countries which are on our doorstep. We're not going to be buying much in the way of technology and hardware from the commonwealth.
But if boris johnson gets his hands on 10 downing street then god help us.
Has politics ever been in such a bad way boris johnson and jeremy corbyn are actually embarrasing for our country.
Its sad to think our country has no one who could really take it forward into the modern era and arguably the most important next few years in history and this decision has to be made in 3 months. Frightening really.
I'm sorry, Boris as PM? No way. He's as two faced, tell the public what he thinks they want to hear as they come. Even as a leave voter, I belive Boris jumped on the Leave campaign bandwagon for his own polictical advantage beliving that if the vote was close or leave won he could use it to maneuver into being PM. His buffoon eccentricity of an image I'm sure is carefully managed for he is a very sly intelligent bloke. But then politics nowadays is more about image than substance.
Sorry you don't know what you are on about. One of the reasons Africa has performed so poorly economically is due to trade with former colonial countries instead of trading among themselves. You talk about cheap wood from India. Do you think this industry is sustainable, do you think the local population makes a lot from cheap wood?
By trading with these countries we import cheap primary products (eg. wood, coffee etc.) which have highly fluctuating prices meaning that there is a huge amount of uncertainty within their economy which deters investment. In return the wealthy of the less developed country simply import manufactured goods meaning that the country never develops a manufacturing industry (how China developed) as they can't compete.
Any industry is sustainable if it is managed properly, the prospect of constant employment rather than no employment means the local population will thrive rather than fester.
If something is constant and selling, it will attract investors. It's a crazy situation were we have investment in India and investment by India in the UK but we can't trade.
We can't trade with Canada because Romania and Bulgaria want free movement so we are prevented from trading because of a 3rd party, how is that right.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
I would never call a remainer dumb, the referendum should have been a lot clearer and maybe I should have worded my posts better, come at it from a different angle. As a remainer do you want federalism, were the EU runs everything including money, laws, trade deals, armed forces to the point we are absorbed completely and become a province within the EU.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
Any industry is sustainable if it is managed properly, the prospect of constant employment rather than no employment means the local population will thrive rather than fester.
If something is constant and selling, it will attract investors. It's a crazy situation were we have investment in India and investment by India in the UK but we can't trade.
We can't trade with Canada because Romania and Bulgaria want free movement so we are prevented from trading because of a 3rd party, how is that right.
We can trade we just have tarrifs on trade made. The problems in these countries are vastly more complex than just getting the right manager. India has started to sort it's self out but still has a massively inflexible labour market. Not mention it is still quite protectionist with high tariffs. These countries generally don't want free trade. I'm moving away a bit from Brexit but you say all it needs is good management but what if your well managed business is destroyed by civil war, your workforce is constantly absent due to illness, your government taxes profit heavily so he can redistribute to keep himself in power. We are better off trading with Europe because the risk is significantly less.
Don't forget that because of European legislation we have the same product standards for all products meaning that we can export all goods easily. On the other hand the US won't accept French cheese. It's not just the EU that has crazy regulations.
We can trade we just have tarrifs on trade made. The problems in these countries are vastly more complex than just getting the right manager. India has started to sort it's self out but still has a massively inflexible labour market. Not mention it is still quite protectionist with high tariffs. These countries generally don't want free trade. I'm moving away a bit from Brexit but you say all it needs is good management but what if your well managed business is destroyed by civil war, your workforce is constantly absent due to illness, your government taxes profit heavily so he can redistribute to keep himself in power. We are better off trading with Europe because the risk is significantly less.
Don't forget that because of European legislation we have the same product standards for all products meaning that we can export all goods easily. On the other hand the US won't accept French cheese. It's not just the EU that has crazy regulations.
The EU is the most protectionist of all, some of those standards shouldn't be standards because they limit companies as to how they move and package goods. Americans don't like seeling kinder eggs to kids but will more than happily sell them a gun
I believe we should be able to trade with the world, that can be Europe too but on our terms, I don't want our political system to become part of the EU. I don't want 3rd parties holding up the deals we could develop. I don't want our Forces absorbed into an EU army, I don't want us to join the euro, all of these will come to fruition because that is the plan.
Thank you for a reasoned debate.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
Brussels says EU citizens to carry on with free movement in Europe including Britain, non negotiable. All going well this brexit isn't it?
EU showing it's true colours and flexing, I was surprised to find out that the EU was the plan B of the Germans towards the end of WWII. Still if you don't think we have enough rapists, murderers and pedophiles the sort of people an Australian type passport would control you could always pick fault with Brexit.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
EU showing it's true colours and flexing, I was surprised to find out that the EU was the plan B of the Germans towards the end of WWII. Still if you don't think we have enough rapists, murderers and pedophiles the sort of people an Australian type passport would control you could always pick fault with Brexit.
I'm sure I read somewhere that Australian immigration has gone up since the introduction of their much talked about scheme.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
There are lots of different classes of visa that you can apply for in Australia, all with different criteria. Which ever one you apply for, you still have to fill out forms and follow due process and pay the appropriate fees. Your application will then be assessed and only approved if you have satisfied the authorities.
So, it is Australia's choice if they want to increase immigration. It would be very easy for them to change the rules and decrease immigration.
I have been through this process myself, so have first hand experience.
Brussels says EU citizens to carry on with free movement in Europe including Britain, non negotiable. All going well this brexit isn't it?
The EU starting to crack they cannot bully us anymore France are signalling today Britain could have a trade deal and control its borders!! Oh and look the FTSE 100 rose again making up all the losses from last week.... Armageddon we was told.... Bullshit they tried to feed us, but only 15 million cowards swallowed it.👍🏼
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
But the fact remains that one of the main reasons people voted out was johnny foreigners having free movement to our country, so all a bit pointless really.
Well, these incomers can always staff all these new hospitals that are going to be built, oh wait...............
But the fact remains that one of the main reasons people voted out was johnny foreigners having free movement to our country, so all a bit pointless really.
Well, these incomers can always staff all these new hospitals that are going to be built, oh wait...............
We have not even started talks yet,
Come back in two years when we are further down the road,
Then you might have something to gloat about,
BUT
I think you will be saying , its going well now after a slow start,
A bit like watching Town .
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
But the fact remains that one of the main reasons people voted out was johnny foreigners having free movement to our country, so all a bit pointless really.
Well, these incomers can always staff all these new hospitals that are going to be built, oh wait...............
I'm sure the government is well aware that whoever becomes PM having any kind of free movement is non negotiable as per the democratic vote.
The vote leave campaigners should apologise for that slogan your referring and could of been misleading to some, but I think even if the leave campaign had said that out of the money we claw back from the EU for example, we will pledge 20 million of that a week to the NHS.....1 billion a year!! then I'm sure this would of been an equal winner.
As for the slogan on the bus to be fair needing stand out big letters there is only so much you can write " we send the EU £350 MILLION a week, lets fund the NHS instead " Is acceptable in the context in my opinion.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
As for the slogan on the bus to be fair needing stand out big letters there is only so much you can write " we send the EU £350 MILLION a week, lets fund the NHS instead " Is acceptable in the context in my opinion.
Not if you have no intention of increasing funding to the NHS.
As an aside, it may not be more money that the NHS needs. I think it was Shoreham Hospital that introduced an Emergency Ward which cut waiting times in A&E and massively reduced bed blocking. Whilst you can't apply a one size fits all approach, innovative thinking will help hugely. As will more investment in home and elderly care (two areas that have foolishly been cut). That said, any party that proposes reducing the headline NHS budget would get hammered by the electorate.
From a semantic point of view the main problem with the magic £350m is the word "send". If they'd been a bit cleverer, the claims of mis-leading the public could have been hugely reduced. Apparently, on the day of the vote 47% of voters believed that number to be true (according to the Media show on Radio 4 yesterday).
With an ever-aging population, we most certainly do need to spend more on the NHS - a lot more.
Nothing wrong with attempting to innovate and develop new policies to assist in this matter, but it's spending that is required. The NHS is on the brink of collapse now, because of cuts or more precisely, a reduction on the increase in spending. Here's what the King's Fund thinks about it:
This never-before seen historical reduction in spending isn't just by chance and isn't just to attempt to cut the deficit. It is a political decision to try and run the NHS into the ground so the Tory government can say, "Look, it's not sustainable - we need to privatise".
(P.S. Please, no claptrap about the cost to the NHS of immigrants. As has been noted in the past, immigrants are mostly of working age and therefore cost much less per capita than our general aging population. The taxes they pay help to fund the NHS and many of work there as well. I have a Polish dentist who has NHS patients. This deliberate running down of the NHS towards failure ought to be debated elsewhere as it really a separate topic to this thread).
I'm sure I read somewhere that Australian immigration has gone up since the introduction of their much talked about scheme.
Must be the deal they have with the EU oh hang on
Australia immigration is regulated, they need more, they let more in after they have had security and back ground checks. Nothing wrong with increased immigration if required by said country on that basis.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
The EU starting to crack they cannot bully us anymore France are signalling today Britain could have a trade deal and control its borders!! Oh and look the FTSE 100 rose again making up all the losses from last week.... Armageddon we was told.... Bullshit they tried to feed us, but only 15 million cowards swallowed it.👍🏼
The pound dropping is a boost to the FTSE 100. The FTSE 250 on the other hand relies more on the performance of the pound and is still 7.7% below pre-Brexit levels.
Another drop in the pound today as well, following Carney's announcement that an interest rate cut is on the cards to try and stimulate the economy following the referendum vote.
Much of the recovery in the FTSE 100 some people are quacking on about is down to the devaluation of the pound. Should help the multinationals but not good for the man on the street as imports become more expensive.
A pity we don't produce anything much worth selling these days as the lower rate should be good for exporters.
The pound dropping is a boost to the FTSE 100. The FTSE 250 on the other hand relies more on the performance of the pound and is still 7.7% below pre-Brexit levels.
Maybe you should be careful what you swallow.
Actually recouped most of its losses since referendum sorry to disappoint.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
Another drop in the pound today as well, following Carney's announcement that an interest rate cut is on the cards to try and stimulate the economy following the referendum vote.
Much of the recovery in the FTSE 100 some people are quacking on about is down to the devaluation of the pound. Should help the multinationals but not good for the man on the street as imports become more expensive.
A pity we don't produce anything much worth selling these days as the lower rate should be good for exporters.
Carney once again talking our country down to cause panic he should be sacked.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
No. It's basic economic orthodoxy. In uncertain times with a slowing economy, cut interest rates to try and stimulate the economy by getting people to spend. Bear in mind that the interest rates are set by the MPC which is theoretically, at least, independent of the government. It has been policy for a couple of years now to give forward guidance of where they expect interest rates to go so nothing new to see here.
When there is change there will always be fluctuations in the market place,
Its very early days yet , things will settle down,
Then when we are out we will prove it was the right thing to do,
Relax and enjoy the ride, things will get better.
The old saying applies here Pete.
If you're not panicking, you haven't appreciated the seriousness of the situation.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
When there is change there will always be fluctuations in the market place,
Its very early days yet , things will settle down,
Then when we are out we will prove it was the right thing to do,
Relax and enjoy the ride, things will get better.
There will always be sad people hoping we fail just to say we told you so, why people can't just except the democratic decision and get behind our great Country even on here there seems to be one or two who just cannot wait to post the slightest negative bit of news, you will notice these doom merchants never say anything positive that's been reported it really is sad, yes we are in for a bumpy ride no doubt but why can they not see the bigger picture?
A sovereign and secure nation with the ability to control its borders trading globally with an ever increasing world share of the economy, let's live in hope and not fear lets shout out how great our Country is and will continue to be, its actually not racist to be patriotic and back your Country as some lefty ares wipe tabloids would insinuate.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
Maybe you wouldn't mind listing the 'lefty arsewipe tabloids' please. The Mirror do you mean? The rest of the tabloids are filthy Tory and it's mostly them doing the scaremongering and talking down so let's have this right.
Maybe you wouldn't mind listing the 'lefty arsewipe tabloids' please. The Mirror do you mean? The rest of the tabloids are filthy Tory and it's mostly them doing the scaremongering and talking down so let's have this right.
Ok broadsheets as well then smart bottom, you know the ones, the poisonous ones you will find in every teachers staff room in schools and university's up and down the country.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
Ah, you mean the broadsheet which has called on it's readers to vote for the LibDems in the past two elections and has spent months posting endless disingenuous hit pieces against the Labour Party leader? That one?
The LibDems certainly haven't been very lefty over the past 6 or so years and enabled the Tories to wreak havoc in the last parliament.
Ok broadsheets as well then smart bottom, you know the ones, the poisonous ones you will find in every teachers staff room in schools and university's up and down the country.
Cobblers. As usual. You've just gone back on your point, and, in actual fact, there aren't any 'arsewipe lefty' newspapers, tabloid or broadsheet.
I suspect you mean The Guardian, who have just been indulging in critical Corbyn pieces.
Ah, you mean the broadsheet which has called on it's readers to vote for the LibDems in the past two elections and has spent months posting endless disingenuous hit pieces against the Labour Party leader? That one?
The LibDems certainly haven't been very lefty over the past 6 or so years and enabled the Tories to wreak havoc in the last parliament.
This is the Lib Dems who are now trading on the position that they'll apply for Britain to rejoin the EU if elected, which of course, means begging the bureaucrats to let us back in, waiting at the back of the queue and most importantly, joining the Eurozone (which is going very well isn't it) and taking the Euro as currency. Good Luck with getting that one past the British public Mr Farron.
I'm already starting to feel the effects of this decision. A company i use to buy tools and machinery from have withdrawn all the offers they had on a brand of machinery from Switzerland and have raised prices by 9%. This is happening with other brands too and they predict they could be as high as 20% dearer by next summer. It's happening with timber too and will put my overheads up considerably. I have a fixed price contract with a customer and am having to bear the extra cost. Cheers!
I'm already starting to feel the effects of this decision. A company i use to buy tools and machinery from have withdrawn all the offers they had on a brand of machinery from Switzerland and have raised prices by 9%. This is happening with other brands too and they predict they could be as high as 20% dearer by next summer. It's happening with timber too and will put my overheads up considerably. I have a fixed price contract with a customer and am having to bear the extra cost. Cheers!
Switzerland is not even in the EU sounds like they are just profiteering after the decision, so shop elsewhere that's the beauty of Capitalism and think about the bigger picture and stop bleating, most people are accepting the correct decision now and getting on with it, in a couple of years this country will be flourishing.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
I don't think the "we want our country back" brigade really thought through the implications of what they were voting for.
I did read on the BBC news website though, that the government have had requests for trade deals from several non EU countries, so hopefully good things will come of this. Doesn't help you in the short term though Ginnywings, and I hope things get better for you sooner rather than later!
Switzerland is not even in the EU sounds like they are just profiteering after the decision, so shop elsewhere that's the beauty of Capitalism and think about the bigger picture and stop bleating, most people are accepting the correct decision now and getting on with it, in a couple of years this country will be flourishing.
Cheers for the advice and letting me know Switzerland is not in the EU as i had absolutely no idea. I shall now stop bleating and happily stump up the extra cash, safe in the knowledge that the "correct decision" was made.
I'm already starting to feel the effects of this decision. A company i use to buy tools and machinery from have withdrawn all the offers they had on a brand of machinery from Switzerland and have raised prices by 9%. This is happening with other brands too and they predict they could be as high as 20% dearer by next summer. It's happening with timber too and will put my overheads up considerably. I have a fixed price contract with a customer and am having to bear the extra cost. Cheers!
What company is this and what tools and machinery are you talking about?
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
Bear in mind that the pound has devalued around 10 percent against the Swiss Franc since the referendum. That's ginny's increase in costs explained away straight off.
As has been noted in the past, the UK has been importing lots of hardware/tools for many years now as we don't manufacture things in the way we once did. If you can only buy certain things from European manufacturers, you'll have to continue to do so, regardless of the cost.
I was about to invest in a new table saw from these people. They are owned by the Walter Meier Group based in Zurich. They are not the only company doing this and are not profiteering as Grim states with his usual lack of knowledge. They sell a lot of machinery in this country and don't want to raise prices to their own detriment.
I also buy a lot of Birch plywood which comes from the Baltic states and have been told that once this years production comes through the market, the prices will probably start rising and it's already an expensive item. I buy powdered paint from America too which may well go the same way.
I was about to invest in a new table saw from these people. They are owned by the Walter Meier Group based in Zurich. They are not the only company doing this and are not profiteering as Grim states with his usual lack of knowledge. They sell a lot of machinery in this country and don't want to raise prices to their own detriment.
I also buy a lot of Birch plywood which comes from the Baltic states and have been told that once this years production comes through the market, the prices will probably start rising and it's already an expensive item. I buy powdered paint from America too which may well go the same way.
What price were you looking at for the table saw, jet table saw looks good but sawstop have a better rating so it would interesting what price range you are looking at.
As for tools, I find the market is becoming more level when it comes to gas and electrical tools, so it might be a case of going to a tools fair when you get chance or going online to get either what you want trialing other woodworking tools. I know as a gas and electrical engineer that people prefer the tools that suit them, fit nicely in the hand and give you a better grip. Sometimes you have to sacrifice that cosmetic look for something more practical.
It is a consumers market, there are deals out there and you should always shop around for the best deals offers, you could always ask for discount / free delivery. By not selling the tools, machinery and other products at a competitive price these companies are hurting themselves.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
I'd already done all my research and Jet are the best for the money, as attested by many people on a woodwork group i'm a member of. Not heard of sawstop but the point is that most of the better machinery producers are not British, so the prices are going to be higher whatever way i go. Another saw i was looking at has just risen from £739.00 to £810.00 in the last week. They are probably made in China or similar and re-badged over here.
Tools and machinery are items not purchased very often and the rises are a one off hit. It's the other stuff like plywood and sundries that are going to have the long term impact on me if prices go up and stay up.
Some people i know in the industry are already reporting price rises across the board of between 5% and 13% on purchases, depending on what they are buying.
Pete, it's mostly because the Pound has devalued against the Euro and all other major currencies. Everything you buy from Europe will now cost around 10 to 15% more than it did a month ago just because of the change in the exchange rate. As Ginny notes, if you're importing stuff from Europe - timber, chipboard and the like - you're inevitably going to be out of pocket. In most cases, there isn't likely to be a UK equivalent in terms of quality and price - why would there need to be when we were part of the free market?
That's not the only worry - with expectations of a weaker economy and the uncertainties surrounding the future, British companies will be less likely to invest which will further weaken things - a self-fulfilling prophecy, really. The devaluation of the pound may mean that foreign companies now look to acquire British ones (as with the sale of ARM to Japanese firm Softbank today), but there is no guarantee that foreign owners will invest here in the way that Softbank apparently plan to do.
We are also now a country that runs on a service economy and banking. We don't produce stuff like we used to once and put all our eggs on one financial basket. I have to buy foreign machinery as there is no British equivalent. Even companies that sell stuff under a British banner have it made somewhere else and just re-badge it. We also gave our land over to farming and don't produce timber and derivative products like we should. Most of the tree growing was of poor trees of totally the wrong type because it was a tax dodge for the rich and famous. The timber is now only good for firewood and costs more to harvest than it is worth.
People say that leaving the EU will make us a great nation again but it was the Tories that destroyed most of our manufacturing base in the first place and now they have overseen a coup to get us out while they happily sit back and play the markets. They don't care if the exchange rate goes up or down as they will still make money either way on the stock market. I'm not confident that leaving the EU will turn out to be any better than what we had but hey ho, we are out and that's democracy for you. Time to move on methinks.
We are also now a country that runs on a service economy and banking. We don't produce stuff like we used to once and put all our eggs on one financial basket. I have to buy foreign machinery as there is no British equivalent. Even companies that sell stuff under a British banner have it made somewhere else and just re-badge it. We also gave our land over to farming and don't produce timber and derivative products like we should. Most of the tree growing was of poor trees of totally the wrong type because it was a tax dodge for the rich and famous. The timber is now only good for firewood and costs more to harvest than it is worth.
People say that leaving the EU will make us a great nation again but it was the Tories that destroyed most of our manufacturing base in the first place and now they have overseen a coup to get us out while they happily sit back and play the markets. They don't care if the exchange rate goes up or down as they will still make money either way on the stock market. I'm not confident that leaving the EU will turn out to be any better than what we had but hey ho, we are out and that's democracy for you. Time to move on methinks.
Best post in all 30 pages for me. Spot on fella.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
Pete, it's mostly because the Pound has devalued against the Euro and all other major currencies. Everything you buy from Europe will now cost around 10 to 15% more than it did a month ago just because of the change in the exchange rate. As Ginny notes, if you're importing stuff from Europe - timber, chipboard and the like - you're inevitably going to be out of pocket. In most cases, there isn't likely to be a UK equivalent in terms of quality and price - why would there need to be when we were part of the free market?
That's not the only worry - with expectations of a weaker economy and the uncertainties surrounding the future, British companies will be less likely to invest which will further weaken things - a self-fulfilling prophecy, really. The devaluation of the pound may mean that foreign companies now look to acquire British ones (as with the sale of ARM to Japanese firm Softbank today), but there is no guarantee that foreign owners will invest here in the way that Softbank apparently plan to do.
The pound has been falling for 100 years! In July 2014 the £1 was worth $1.70 In 2007 -the £1 was worth $2.10 In the 1950s £1 was worth $4
The economy is once again contracting, nothing to do with brexit.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
Exchange rates tend to go up and down for various different reasons, but the reason for the recent big drop in the pound is clearly down to the referendum result. With the uncertainty this has caused, it seems very unlikely to me that any recover in this value will occur. We're already a lot lower than before 2008 because of our economy's reliance on the finance sector, so it wouldn't surprise me to see further falls, especially if we enter recession again as forecast by many.
I can't see the valuation going back up unless the Euro zone falls to pieces and I reckon that isn't likely for the immediate future. The ECB will do all they can to support it. Of course, if the Eurozone enters recession itself, it will drag us down with them.
Things looking pretty bleak from my perspective. I reckon all the financial analysts and economists have called this one right.
The recession has been on the cards for a few years now the way China and the USA are heading, our own economy has been slowing for 2 years as the Uk deficit shows and we have had a decline in foreign investment during this period but this has absolutely nothing to do with the referendum, but no doubt when, not if we hit this recession people will want to blame brexit.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
Exchange rates tend to go up and down for various different reasons, but the reason for the recent big drop in the pound is clearly down to the referendum result. With the uncertainty this has caused, it seems very unlikely to me that any recover in this value will occur. We're already a lot lower than before 2008 because of our economy's reliance on the finance sector, so it wouldn't surprise me to see further falls, especially if we enter recession again as forecast by many.
I can't see the valuation going back up unless the Euro zone falls to pieces and I reckon that isn't likely for the immediate future. The ECB will do all they can to support it. Of course, if the Eurozone enters recession itself, it will drag us down with them.
Things looking pretty bleak from my perspective. I reckon all the financial analysts and economists have called this one right.
ECB, administers monetary policy of the Eurozone, how did it help Greece. Did you watch Mark Blyth: The AthensLive Interview video I posted before.
This is just a short clip for a taster.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
I've not had the chance to watch your video but I'm guessing it's about the ECB interventions in Greece - I know that the ECB, as part of the Troika, royally shafted the Greeks. Completely anti-democratic and pretty disgusting.
However, this was back in the era before they woke up and realised they needed to start QE to shore up the rest of the Eurozone. I think their general policy will now be more 'sensible' and akin to what we've seen in the UK and US, though I doubt they will help out the PIIGS countries at all.
Whether QE at currently operated is a good or a bad thing is a different matter, but it certainly shores up the economy in the shorter term.
I've not had the chance to watch your video but I'm guessing it's about the ECB interventions in Greece - I know that the ECB, as part of the Troika, royally shafted the Greeks. Completely anti-democratic and pretty disgusting.
However, this was back in the era before they woke up and realised they needed to start QE to shore up the rest of the Eurozone. I think their general policy will now be more 'sensible' and akin to what we've seen in the UK and US, though I doubt they will help out the PIIGS countries at all.
Whether QE at currently operated is a good or a bad thing is a different matter, but it certainly shores up the economy in the shorter term.
They shafted the Greeks for a reason and Mark Blyth explains it very well. I would like your opinion of the original athens live interview, I'm a novice when it come to finance but how he puts it across confirms to me that getting out of the EU was the right move in the long term. This is someone who grew up on British welfare and through hard work, made it to the top, he sees the big picture and doesn't mince his words which is very refreshing.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
The recession has been on the cards for a few years now the way China and the USA are heading, our own economy has been slowing for 2 years as the Uk deficit shows and we have had a decline in foreign investment during this period but this has absolutely nothing to do with the referendum, but no doubt when, not if we hit this recession people will want to blame brexit.
When really they should just blame free market capitalism.
UK growth forecasts revised down by almost 1% due to Brexit. I suppose that has nothing to do with us leaving Europe either and "would have happened anyway".
UK growth forecasts revised down by almost 1% due to Brexit. I suppose that has nothing to do with us leaving Europe either and "would have happened anyway".
Been reading the Guardian by any chance? The world economy has being slowing down for 4 years and forecasts globally are also down so no surprise our own growth forecasts are down 🙄
But what you are Failing to mention Conveniently, is that the IMF are now admitting they got their brexit predictions wrong, or more than likely they were just lying to us. You have also failed to mention the IMF are now saying the Uk economy is going to grow stronger than France and Germany,!!! Shall we blame that on Brexit😂😂😂
I despise people like you who continually talk our great country down, if you don't like living in a free, soon to be independent Country (thanks to the 17.5m loyalists) then clear off and let the people who believe in our Country to carry on making it great.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
Seeing as the financial Armageddon didn't materialise I would of thought that the sell out gutless remainers would of been hiding away for a few years, but not our Ginnygimp, just when most of the stubborn section of remainers are now starting to wake up and except Brexit, we have old Ginnygimp come out of the woodwork and try and spin a positive news story into yet another Brexit scare story WTF!
The back peddling by these so called forecasters is pretty amusing now, who could possibly forget the doomsday warnings that Brexit would bring from Osbourne and his mates at the IMF, it doesn't surprise me why so many people voted for remain with scare story's like this. I spoke to a landlord on Bentley street today (you know who I am now if you come on here) and he told me he only voted remain because of the scare story's and that he now feels a bit of an idiot, I imagine he feels like he probably let his country down but he did say how happy he was now with the result.
Anyway these muppets at the IMFare now saying the British economy will grow faster than France Germany and Italy over the next two years, and that we the UK are still on target to be the second fastest growing economy in the G7 behind the USA!!! So after all the bullshit we was fed from the establishment things are not looking to bad, especially when you take into account we now have Nations all over the world queuing up to trade with us once we get shut of the scourge of the EU.
So all positive stuff so far you might think 🙂 but not as far as the treacherous "I want to be ruled by our corrupt EU masters" Ginster is concerned, he wants to pick out the little fact that our (forecasted ) growth for next year will be down on predictions...... Erm yes along with everybody else but still growing faster!
So Ginny time put your dummy back in and get over losing the referendum, it's time you excepted the fact we are leaving the EU whether you and your Guardian like it or not.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
Methinks you doth protest too much. Almost as if you are trying to convince yourself as well as others.
I actually heard it on the radio news. I don't read newspapers because they are as full of excrement as you are. If anyone "conveniently forgets to mention facts", then that would be you. You may well despise me but i don't much care what you think you arrogant sharp object.
Always with the bile and insults. Time to bow out.
Seeing as the financial Armageddon didn't materialise I would of thought that the sell out gutless remainers would of been hiding away for a few years, but not our Ginnygimp, just when most of the stubborn section of remainers are now starting to wake up and except Brexit, we have old Ginnygimp come out of the woodwork and try and spin a positive news story into yet another Brexit scare story WTF!
The back peddling by these so called forecasters is pretty amusing now, who could possibly forget the doomsday warnings that Brexit would bring from Osbourne and his mates at the IMF, it doesn't surprise me why so many people voted for remain with scare story's like this. I spoke to a landlord on Bentley street today (you know who I am now if you come on here) and he told me he only voted remain because of the scare story's and that he now feels a bit of an idiot, I imagine he feels like he probably let his country down but he did say how happy he was now with the result.
Anyway these muppets at the IMFare now saying the British economy will grow faster than France Germany and Italy over the next two years, and that we the UK are still on target to be the second fastest growing economy in the G7 behind the USA!!! So after all the bullshit we was fed from the establishment things are not looking to bad, especially when you take into account we now have Nations all over the world queuing up to trade with us once we get shut of the scourge of the EU.
So all positive stuff so far you might think 🙂 but not as far as the treacherous "I want to be ruled by our corrupt EU masters" Ginster is concerned, he wants to pick out the little fact that our (forecasted ) growth for next year will be down on predictions...... Erm yes along with everybody else but still growing faster!
So Ginny time put your dummy back in and get over losing the referendum, it's time you excepted the fact we are leaving the EU whether you and your Guardian like it or not.
Classy as always. The antidote to the argument that leavers aren't racist, hate-filled cretins. I know that they're not all but........
Classy as always. The antidote to the argument that leavers aren't racist, hate-filled cretins. I know that they're not all but........
Hello Rodley has Ginny opened your crypt? Nice Input on the debate as usual.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
Seeing as the financial Armageddon didn't materialise I would of thought that the sell out gutless remainers would of been hiding away for a few years, but not our Ginnygimp, just when most of the stubborn section of remainers are now starting to wake up and except Brexit, we have old Ginnygimp come out of the woodwork and try and spin a positive news story into yet another Brexit scare story WTF!
The back peddling by these so called forecasters is pretty amusing now, who could possibly forget the doomsday warnings that Brexit would bring from Osbourne and his mates at the IMF, it doesn't surprise me why so many people voted for remain with scare story's like this. I spoke to a landlord on Bentley street today (you know who I am now if you come on here) and he told me he only voted remain because of the scare story's and that he now feels a bit of an idiot, I imagine he feels like he probably let his country down but he did say how happy he was now with the result.
Anyway these muppets at the IMFare now saying the British economy will grow faster than France Germany and Italy over the next two years, and that we the UK are still on target to be the second fastest growing economy in the G7 behind the USA!!! So after all the bullshit we was fed from the establishment things are not looking to bad, especially when you take into account we now have Nations all over the world queuing up to trade with us once we get shut of the scourge of the EU.
So all positive stuff so far you might think 🙂 but not as far as the treacherous "I want to be ruled by our corrupt EU masters" Ginster is concerned, he wants to pick out the little fact that our (forecasted ) growth for next year will be down on predictions...... Erm yes along with everybody else but still growing faster!
So Ginny time put your dummy back in and get over losing the referendum, it's time you excepted the fact we are leaving the EU whether you and your Guardian like it or not.
Ginny has been effected as explained with the tools and materials he needs for work. He has offered up honest debate and non of us are really experts in what will come. We all get our information from different sources and the EU has effected some more than others as it did with the fish quotas in the 80's.
The news coming out of the EU that countries will be forced to take refugees and fined (estimated £250K for each one refused) if they don't may shock people but what may shock them more it is estimated that there will double the amount coming this year than last year.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
Methinks you doth protest too much. Almost as if you are trying to convince yourself as well as others.
I actually heard it on the radio news. I don't read newspapers because they are as full of excrement as you are. If anyone "conveniently forgets to mention facts", then that would be you. You may well despise me but i don't much care what you think you arrogant sharp object.
Always with the bile and insults. Time to bow out.
When your losing the debate to me you normally go to your default mode and call me a xenophobe but to run away I didn't expect.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
Ginny has been effected as explained with the tools and materials he needs for work. He has offered up honest debate and non of us are really experts in what will come. We all get our information from different sources and the EU has effected some more than others as it did with the fish quotas in the 80's.
The news coming out of the EU that countries will be forced to take refugees and fined (estimated £250K for each one refused) if they don't may shock people but what may shock them more it is estimated that there will double the amount coming this year than last year.
If this is true then all the more reason for us to be getting the hell out of the EU dictatorship. As for the likes of Ginny I'd take what he says with a pinch of salt, hes a doom merchant who comes on here with the slightest snippet of negative Brexit news I really don't know what he's trying to achieve by this, brexit means Brexit.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
The IMF have cut their estimates for growth in our economy by 0.9%. That is a cut in their estimates, not an increase.
Here's what their chief analyst actually said:
Quoted Text
“The first half of 2016 revealed some promising signs – stronger than expected growth in the euro area and Japan, as well as a partial recovery in commodity prices that helped several emerging and developing economies."
“As of 22 June [the day before the referendum], we were therefore prepared to upgrade our 2016-17 global growth projections slightly. But Brexit has thrown a spanner in the works.”
Their original view was that the world economy was likely to be weaker than some signs recent might indicate, hence the 'improvement' in their forecast. They note that the resilience of the markets after the referendum, in their view, means that the gloomier forecasts are less likely to occur, but that doesn't mean that there hasn't been damage done.
At the moment, we're treading water until Article 50 is enacted, but don't be surprised to see the world economy wobble once again once it eventually is. I'm still guessing we'll be seeing a recession in the next year or two as the world economy is in a crap state in general.
The next big potential upset would be if Trump were somehow to win the US Presidency. The markets will excrement the bed if that occurs, as should any sensible person.
ECB, administers monetary policy of the Eurozone, how did it help Greece. Did you watch Mark Blyth: The AthensLive Interview video I posted before.
I've heard of his book (never read it, mind) and I'm in agreement with his views that the Eurozone is currently being operated to benefit the Germans (and the French), at the expense of the PIIGS countries. You can't have a currency union without a fiscal union and you need to have transfers between the states to balance things out in the way that they do in the USA. California, for example, pays huge amounts more to the federal government than it receives back. Perversely, the deep red Republican states hate the federal government over there with a passion, even though they receive much more from it than is taken in taxes!
The need for a fiscal union to save the Euro is already apparent to most economists and there have been one or two noises which indicate that the ECB are beginning to realise that they can't go on with their current policies. Whether this will ultimately stop the collapse of the Euro is doubtful, time will tell.
However, the Eurozone is not the EU and membership of the Euro was not required to enjoy the economic benefits of a single market. Whether or not the single market aspect of the EU could continue to exist after a Euro collapse remains to be seen (though it existed before the Euro).
Blyth is completely correct (unsurprisingly as it is his speciality) that austerity across Europe is the problem. It has clearly failed to achieve its aims, has no support in economic theory or practice, yet those in government continue to impose it. Other than the immigration question, most of the economic issues people voting Leave blamed on the EU were actually those imposed by the government's policies! Absolutely nuts.
I've heard of his book (never read it, mind) and I'm in agreement with his views that the Eurozone is currently being operated to benefit the Germans (and the French), at the expense of the PIIGS countries. You can't have a currency union without a fiscal union and you need to have transfers between the states to balance things out in the way that they do in the USA. California, for example, pays huge amounts more to the federal government than it receives back. Perversely, the deep red Republican states hate the federal government over there with a passion, even though they receive much more from it than is taken in taxes!
The need for a fiscal union to save the Euro is already apparent to most economists and there have been one or two noises which indicate that the ECB are beginning to realise that they can't go on with their current policies. Whether this will ultimately stop the collapse of the Euro is doubtful, time will tell.
However, the Eurozone is not the EU and membership of the Euro was not required to enjoy the economic benefits of a single market. Whether or not the single market aspect of the EU could continue to exist after a Euro collapse remains to be seen (though it existed before the Euro).
Blyth is completely correct (unsurprisingly as it is his speciality) that austerity across Europe is the problem. It has clearly failed to achieve its aims, has no support in economic theory or practice, yet those in government continue to impose it. Other than the immigration question, most of the economic issues people voting Leave blamed on the EU were actually those imposed by the government's policies! Absolutely nuts.
The point he made about Scotland was an eye opener as well. The EU has allowed politicians to shift blame when things go wrong, it has been easy to blame the EU for their failings.
Also respected Economist Bernard Connolly says E.U. is Dangerous & "Explicitly Anti-Democratic" He states that he predicted a economic crash 5 years ago because of how the EU and British banks have been doing business.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
I've heard of his book (never read it, mind) and I'm in agreement with his views that the Eurozone is currently being operated to benefit the Germans (and the French), at the expense of the PIIGS countries. You can't have a currency union without a fiscal union and you need to have transfers between the states to balance things out in the way that they do in the USA. California, for example, pays huge amounts more to the federal government than it receives back. Perversely, the deep red Republican states hate the federal government over there with a passion, even though they receive much more from it than is taken in taxes!
The need for a fiscal union to save the Euro is already apparent to most economists and there have been one or two noises which indicate that the ECB are beginning to realise that they can't go on with their current policies. Whether this will ultimately stop the collapse of the Euro is doubtful, time will tell.
However, the Eurozone is not the EU and membership of the Euro was not required to enjoy the economic benefits of a single market. Whether or not the single market aspect of the EU could continue to exist after a Euro collapse remains to be seen (though it existed before the Euro).
Blyth is completely correct (unsurprisingly as it is his speciality) that austerity across Europe is the problem. It has clearly failed to achieve its aims, has no support in economic theory or practice, yet those in government continue to impose it. Other than the immigration question, most of the economic issues people voting Leave blamed on the EU were actually those imposed by the government's policies! Absolutely nuts.
Seeing as the financial Armageddon didn't materialise I would of thought that the sell out gutless remainers would of been hiding away for a few years, but not our Ginnygimp, just when most of the stubborn section of remainers are now starting to wake up and except Brexit, we have old Ginnygimp come out of the woodwork and try and spin a positive news story into yet another Brexit scare story WTF!
The back peddling by these so called forecasters is pretty amusing now, who could possibly forget the doomsday warnings that Brexit would bring from Osbourne and his mates at the IMF, it doesn't surprise me why so many people voted for remain with scare story's like this. I spoke to a landlord on Bentley street today (you know who I am now if you come on here) and he told me he only voted remain because of the scare story's and that he now feels a bit of an idiot, I imagine he feels like he probably let his country down but he did say how happy he was now with the result.
Anyway these muppets at the IMFare now saying the British economy will grow faster than France Germany and Italy over the next two years, and that we the UK are still on target to be the second fastest growing economy in the G7 behind the USA!!! So after all the bullshit we was fed from the establishment things are not looking to bad, especially when you take into account we now have Nations all over the world queuing up to trade with us once we get shut of the scourge of the EU.
So all positive stuff so far you might think 🙂 but not as far as the treacherous "I want to be ruled by our corrupt EU masters" Ginster is concerned, he wants to pick out the little fact that our (forecasted ) growth for next year will be down on predictions...... Erm yes along with everybody else but still growing faster!
So Ginny time put your dummy back in and get over losing the referendum, it's time you excepted the fact we are leaving the EU whether you and your Guardian like it or not.
You're an adult and you're actually calling him names because he has a different view to you! Ginnygimp?!
Just a little point...but it's 'would have' (or would've), not 'would of'. You couldn't 'of' done anything. Of is not a verb.
You're an adult and you're actually calling him names because he has a different view to you! Ginnygimp?!
Just a little point...but it's 'would have' (or would've), not 'would of'. You couldn't 'of' done anything. Of is not a verb.
Didn't expect to come on here and get a petty English lesson from you, thanks.
But in doing so you do sound just like another bitter remainer who has lost the debate.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
Didn't expect to come on here and get a petty English lesson from you, thanks.
But in doing so you do sound just like another bitter remainer who has lost the debate.
If you're as proud of this great country as you claim, you should at least have the decency to have a good grasp of your own language. Chaos missed you mixing excepting with accepting too, two very different words.
If you're as proud of this great country as you claim, you should at least have the decency to have a good grasp of your own language. Chaos missed you mixing excepting with accepting too, two very different words.
Quite pathetic and sad to attack a man for his poor grammer😄 what kind of liberal lefty are you.
I'm sure I could troll through all your post and find spelling mistakes but that would make me saddo, and who really gives a intercourse anyway It's only working class footy forum after all get a life.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
Blah blah black lesbian BBC blah blah sore losers blah blah libtard agenda blah blah prove anything with facts.
There you go Grim 74 - saved you the trouble of posting.
Cheers but only more pessimistic excrement from the voice of doom not to be taken serious.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
The news coming out of the EU that countries will be forced to take refugees and fined (estimated £250K for each one refused) if they don't may shock people but what may shock them more it is estimated that there will double the amount coming this year than last year.
If this is true then all the more reason for us to be getting the hell out of the EU dictatorship. As for the likes of Ginny I'd take what he says with a pinch of salt, hes a doom merchant who comes on here with the slightest snippet of negative Brexit news I really don't know what he's trying to achieve by this, brexit means Brexit.
It's been mentioned previously ( in the FT so who knows what validity it has...I assume they have reputable sources )
They report € 250,000 not £ 250,000 but if all the merchants of doom have it right, there'll soon be parity between the two currencies won't there?
I have no particular leaning on this "debate" about whether leaving was the right thing to do or not; as a moderate who could have chosen either way on the day though, I'd argue that the mainstream media do seem to have an agenda that is trying to impress on the general public that Brexit was a bad thing.
It may well prove to be, but (in my opinion) the more negativity there is the greater the chances of an economic downturn.
Confidence in what has taken place and also going forward might be a better message and could turn out to be a self fulfilling prophesy but I question whether that would suit the editors and their proprietors
One thing's for sure...I don't see the general public are going to benefit that much either way.
Out or in....it'll probably be the same as it ever was with our day to day lives just carrying on as they more or less always have. I'm sure we will adjust to whatever the new equilibrium is
The fact that the vote went in favour of Brexit is merely coincidental...as long as us Britain's plebs are left to infighting, it just means the establishment can carry on greedily looking out for themselves
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Agree with what you are saying we need more confidence and optimism from our financial institutions which is why I would sack Mark Carney immediately, ecery time he opens his pessimist gob the pound seems to fall and don't forget Carney was another one from the establishment predicting brexit Armageddon.
We also need to hear more from the MSM (forget the Guardian only 300 people read it daily) and all the political party's need to come on board and accept the decision, to be fair the goverment are saying the right things which is encouraging because confidence will breed the growth into the economy.
I thing I'd probably agree if we are talking finances that the average pleb would be no worse either way, but one thing for sure Brexit would tax the mega rich like the hypocritical Richard Brandsons and Bob geldoffs of this world, which is why they were so against and why they are demanding a second referendum.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Agree with what you are saying we need more confidence and optimism from our financial institutions which is why I would sack Mark Carney immediately, ecery time he opens his pessimist gob the pound seems to fall and don't forget Carney was another one from the establishment predicting brexit Armageddon.
We also need to hear more from the MSM (forget the Guardian only 300 people read it daily) and all the political party's need to come on board and accept the decision, to be fair the goverment are saying the right things which is encouraging because confidence will breed the growth into the economy.
I thing I'd probably agree if we are talking finances that the average pleb would be no worse either way, but one thing for sure Brexit would tax the mega rich like the hypocritical Richard Brandsons and Bob geldoffs of this world, which is why they were so against and why they are demanding a second referendum.
I don't normally reply to your stuff but I'm intrigued by the assertion about brexit taxing the mega rich? What exactly does that mean cos I've never seen a Tory government tax any mega rich.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
Cheers but only more pessimistic excrement from the voice of doom not to be taken serious.
Yeah, the 650-odd companies responding to the PMI survey and reporting the downturn they have witnessed over the last month are clearly just making it up as part of a massive conspiracy.
Could be a one-month dip, I suppose, but doesn't seem overly likely to me.
I don't normally reply to your stuff but I'm intrigued by the assertion about brexit taxing the mega rich? What exactly does that mean cos I've never seen a Tory government tax any mega rich.
Just to clarify I implied brexit would be more taxing for the rich, I didn't mention anything about the Tory goverment taxing the rich, even though the top 1% here are already now paying more than ever a quarter of all income in fact, but that's another story.
The rich business owners and banks you know the ones that crashed the economy clearly wanted us to remain simply because the EU helps big businesses to pay lower wages and avoid tax its that simple. Almost all big business and banks have public relation firms in brussels now, this is to keep their dominance and corruption in check whilst keeping small business out.
And as for the champagne super rich socialists, they must be dreading getting rid of their Albanian gardeners, Polish nanny's, and Latvian house keepers. This could even mean employing local people to look after their mansions while they are away living in LA, but even worse for them it could now mean them paying an actual living wage.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
Who exactly are the 'champagne super rich socialists'? Are your posted views actually real? Are these the same people that run the 'scumbag lefty media' that you mentioned before, and who don't actually exist?
Who exactly are the 'champagne super rich socialists'? Are your posted views actually real? Are these the same people that run the 'scumbag lefty media' that you mentioned before, and who don't actually exist?
Keep taking the pills, you know the ones I'm talking about the preaching lefties like Geldoff, Cumberbach, Brandson, Thompson, Rawlings, Martin, Law, Church, etc, etc, etc, stinking hypocrites who don't live in the real world, the people that will never have to wait days to see a doctor, not worry about enforced immigration in their community, won't have to worry about school places or classroom numbers for their children, etc, etc, etc,
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
Just to clarify I implied brexit would be more taxing for the rich, I didn't mention anything about the Tory goverment taxing the rich, even though the top 1% here are already now paying more than ever a quarter of all income in fact, but that's another story.
The rich business owners and banks you know the ones that crashed the economy clearly wanted us to remain simply because the EU helps big businesses to pay lower wages and avoid tax its that simple. Almost all big business and banks have public relation firms in brussels now, this is to keep their dominance and corruption in check whilst keeping small business out.
And as for the champagne super rich socialists, they must be dreading getting rid of their Albanian gardeners, Polish nanny's, and Latvian house keepers. This could even mean employing local people to look after their mansions while they are away living in LA, but even worse for them it could now mean them paying an actual living wage.
I work in a University (a prestigious, highly ranked, Russell Group member before you start suggesting all we offer is BA Media Studies degrees taught by lazy left-wing 'academics'). Since the referendum result our Vice Chancellor has sent a number of worrying e-mails to staff suggesting the University is now in a precarious financial position, has recently lost out on funding for EU supported research projects due to the uncertainty we now face, and has hinted at redundancies as a method to reduce costs. For reference, the following articles offer further detail on how Brexit has already negatively impacted the University sector:
Just wondering how all this allays with your idea that we're better off outside of the EU. For reference, Universities currently contribute 2.8% of the UK's GDP, and International Students who will mostly be affected by Brexit presently provide a net benefit of £2.3 billion to our economy each year (and before you start complaining about them supposedly using our public services - this figure already accounts for that cost). How does sabotaging all this make us better off as a country?
Would like to hear the reasons behind anyone giving my previous post a cross. What is your argument for that?
Sadly I fear you are in for a long wait for a reply. Unless of course someone wants to take you to task for "running down our great country". Deeply worrying times...
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
I work in a University (a prestigious, highly ranked, Russell Group member before you start suggesting all we offer is BA Media Studies degrees taught by lazy left-wing 'academics'). Since the referendum result our Vice Chancellor has sent a number of worrying e-mails to staff suggesting the University is now in a precarious financial position, has recently lost out on funding for EU supported research projects due to the uncertainty we now face, and has hinted at redundancies as a method to reduce costs. For reference, the following articles offer further detail on how Brexit has already negatively impacted the University sector:
Just wondering how all this allays with your idea that we're better off outside of the EU. For reference, Universities currently contribute 2.8% of the UK's GDP, and International Students who will mostly be affected by Brexit presently provide a net benefit of £2.3 billion to our economy each year (and before you start complaining about them supposedly using our public services - this figure already accounts for that cost). How does sabotaging all this make us better off as a country?
What are the going wages for professors and the like. My daughter has just completed a psychology degree and we know the cost will be with her for decades. Her professor did next to nothing and offered or gave minimal support. There seems to be a lot of money going into Universities.
EU funding shouldn't drop off until we have left the EU when it has already been stated on the debates that money would be available once we have left.
Maybe find out how the Scots can get free degrees and others on the continent and work towards that. How did we ever get by before the EU.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
I work in a University (a prestigious, highly ranked, Russell Group member before you start suggesting all we offer is BA Media Studies degrees taught by lazy left-wing 'academics'). Since the referendum result our Vice Chancellor has sent a number of worrying e-mails to staff suggesting the University is now in a precarious financial position, has recently lost out on funding for EU supported research projects due to the uncertainty we now face, and has hinted at redundancies as a method to reduce costs. For reference, the following articles offer further detail on how Brexit has already negatively impacted the University sector:
Just wondering how all this allays with your idea that we're better off outside of the EU. For reference, Universities currently contribute 2.8% of the UK's GDP, and International Students who will mostly be affected by Brexit presently provide a net benefit of £2.3 billion to our economy each year (and before you start complaining about them supposedly using our public services - this figure already accounts for that cost). How does sabotaging all this make us better off as a country?
Are you trying to wind me up with links to the Guardian??? Thank social media that that scare mongering, liberal lefty, hand wringing, pandering piece of excrement rag is going out of business.
Foreign students are cueing up to get to our university's in fact you could double the fees and they would still be cueing up what's the problem?
And finally how many times..... EU funded means it's not the EU's money! it's our bloody money to start with.
I would suggest you tell your brain washing libtard vice chancellor to stop spouting excrement and embrace the joy of being free from a corrupt federal state, Brexit means Brexit.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
Are you trying to wind me up with links to the Guardian??? Thank social media that that scare mongering, liberal lefty, hand wringing, pandering piece of excrement rag is going out of business.
Foreign students are cueing up to get to our university's in fact you could double the fees and they would still be cueing up what's the problem?
And finally how many times..... EU funded means it's not the EU's money! it's our bloody money to start with.
I would suggest you tell your brain washing libtard vice chancellor to stop spouting excrement and embrace the joy of being free from a corrupt federal state, Brexit means Brexit.
Are you trying to wind me up with links to the Guardian??? Thank social media that that scare mongering, liberal lefty, hand wringing, pandering piece of excrement rag is going out of business.
Foreign students are cueing up to get to our university's in fact you could double the fees and they would still be cueing up what's the problem?
And finally how many times..... EU funded means it's not the EU's money! it's our bloody money to start with.
I would suggest you tell your brain washing libtard vice chancellor to stop spouting excrement and embrace the joy of being free from a corrupt federal state, Brexit means Brexit.
All three of the articles I posted offer tangible examples of how Brexit has already begun to impact the University sector. You can't handwave the effects away simply because they're published in newspaper that doesn't follow your own political allegiance. As someone who works directly with International Students I can assure you that they certainly aren't 'cueing up' to study here and much like domestic students they are sensitive to increases in fees. In recent years the Government has increased the costs and financial requirements for obtaining a student visa, and now mandates an additional 'Immigration Health Surcharge' payment of £150 a year before letting non-EU students into the country. The last couple of years have seen overall non-EU student application figures stagnate as the growth in Chinese applicants year on year has started to stall, and numbers coming to study here from India have totally collapsed by well over 50% since 2011 (source). Before the referendum Universities were already reporting a combined fall of 1% in non-EU applications (source), and anecdotally within my own institution we've noticed a further drop off in applications compared to last year since the Brexit result was confirmed.
This is all worrying because the numbers of students going abroad across the whole globe is increasing each year. Competitor nations such as Australia, Canada and the USA are taking proactive steps (like simplifying student visa requirements) to make it easier for overseas students to come and study in their Universities. All of those countries are seeing continued growth in International student recruitment, while domestically we're seeing applications from overseas applicants stagnate. Brexit will clearly further exacerbate this situation which is why our Vice Chancellor has started warning of cuts to staff costs. Just now I've found that two of my co-workers are being let go at the end of September - the first time we've ever not renewed fixed term contracts in the 5 years I've worked here. They're both hard-working and incredibly competent colleagues - losing them due to the financial uncertainty we face as a result of Brexit is distressing, and will make my own role more challenging. I'm sure they'll be delighted if I tell them the VC was 'spouting excrement' now that they're facing the jobcentre.
It's also farcical that you're still parroting that rubbish about the money we're currently sending to the EU being repurposed for domestic spending. Farage and Boris rowed back on most of those claims within hours of the Brexit result being announced - do you really think science and research funding is going to be high up the spending list of an increasingly austere Conservative Government? Give me a break - you're an utter clown.
What are the going wages for professors and the like. My daughter has just completed a psychology degree and we know the cost will be with her for decades. Her professor did next to nothing and offered or gave minimal support. There seems to be a lot of money going into Universities.
EU funding shouldn't drop off until we have left the EU when it has already been stated on the debates that money would be available once we have left.
Maybe find out how the Scots can get free degrees and others on the continent and work towards that. How did we ever get by before the EU.
EU funding is already dropping off because much of that funding is offered for long-term projects and understandably partner institutions in Europe are unwilling to work with researchers from UK Universities since it could result in a situation where funding is reduced or lost once we boot ourselves out of the EU.
In my own institution the starting Professorial salary is about £57k, however not all undergraduate modules are delivered by professors as the majority of their roles are research based. Most teaching at undergrad level is delivered by 'Lecturers' (40k a year), 'Teaching Associates' (29k a year) and even PhD students on casual contracts (£10 an hour or so). Across the University sector we've seen a real terms decline in pay of 14.5% since 2009, so while you might see headlines about Vice Chancellors receiving giant pay rises, that's certainly not the case for the majority of professional and academic staff responsible for teaching and looking after university students. In terms of teaching, students at Universities are expected to carry out their own independent learning. Professors and other teaching staff are not there to promote rote learning for students to regurgitate in exams - they are there to guide students through the course and provide office hours to assist students who need extra support.
Ire about 'value for money' due to the scandalous increase in fees over the last two decades should be directed towards the political establishment (Labour, Tories & Lib Dems), not Universities, since they're the ones responsible for pulling up the free Higher Education ladder.
And again to the red-cross brigade, please at least offer a response to my detailed and sourced posts if you find something about them distasteful. I'm VERY interested to hear what you think is so wrong about what I've written.
As a final point, if anyone's that bothered about where the funding for our Universities comes from you can take a look as this very recently released Universities UK report which contains lots of easy to understand infographics - http://www.universitiesuk.ac.u.....unding-explained.pdf
I work in a University (a prestigious, highly ranked, Russell Group member before you start suggesting all we offer is BA Media Studies degrees taught by lazy left-wing 'academics'). Since the referendum result our Vice Chancellor has sent a number of worrying e-mails to staff suggesting the University is now in a precarious financial position, has recently lost out on funding for EU supported research projects due to the uncertainty we now face, and has hinted at redundancies as a method to reduce costs. For reference, the following articles offer further detail on how Brexit has already negatively impacted the University sector:
Just wondering how all this allays with your idea that we're better off outside of the EU. For reference, Universities currently contribute 2.8% of the UK's GDP, and International Students who will mostly be affected by Brexit presently provide a net benefit of £2.3 billion to our economy each year (and before you start complaining about them supposedly using our public services - this figure already accounts for that cost). How does sabotaging all this make us better off as a country?
I would be interested to know how you have lost out to EU funding when we will still be members of the EU for at least two more years.
Ire about 'value for money' due to the scandalous increase in fees over the last two decades should be directed towards the political establishment (Labour, Tories & Lib Dems), not Universities, since they're the ones responsible for pulling up the free Higher Education ladder.
And let's not forget that the MPs of every political stripe who voted through the tuition fees legislation pretty much all received free University education themselves, with some of them no doubt also receiving grants to pay their living expenses at the time.
I didn't pay a penny in fees at University and was lucky enough to leave with practically no debt (working through the holidays helped me here). I was debt free following my first full pay packet after University.
My wife, on the other hand, left with tens of thousands in debt, just because she studied a decade later than me. Similarly, her younger sisters have an enormous debt burden hanging over them.
The anti-intellectual bullshite loved by so many of those who voted Leave really beggars belief.
But we've got our country back! Not sure where we've got it back from though.
The research funding issue is a real worry for me. One of the main ways that we'll be able to succeed post Brexit is by investing in our scientific and technology talent, and harnessing their discoveries. This down turn in funding was predictable but at least GSK has said they will continue to invest in the UK for research. We need to attract more organisations like this to try and replace the investment we'll lose out on and a result of Brexit. I'm sure we'll have conflicting views on that but R&D tax breaks are definitely something we need to keep. I also don't object to a low CT rate if businesses are creating well paid jobs in the UK.
In answer to Chaos' question, I reckon I must be a Libtard. I read the Guardian, have a degree and think experts should be listened to.
In recent years the Government has increased the costs and financial requirements for obtaining a student visa, and now mandates an additional 'Immigration Health Surcharge' payment of £150 a year before letting non-EU students into the country. The last couple of years have seen overall non-EU student application figures stagnate as the growth in Chinese applicants year on year has started to stall, and numbers coming to study here from India have totally collapsed by well over 50% since 2011 (source). Before the referendum Universities were already reporting a combined fall of 1% in non-EU applications (source), and anecdotally within my own institution we've noticed a further drop off in applications compared to last year since the Brexit result was confirmed.
Doesn't this all contradict your blameiming of Brexit in these reports that state numbers have been in decline for a few years now? And what about the restrictions on current non EU students in order to mitigate the effect of having open door to all students within the EU it's about time we had a fairer system which allows university's to choose students on potential not passports.
Quoted Text
It's also farcical that you're still parroting that rubbish about the money we're currently sending to the EU being repurposed for domestic spending.
We pay more to the EU then we get back fact! Leaving would allow us to not only match but increase the amount given to universities.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
Doesn't this all contradict your blameiming of Brexit in these reports that state numbers have been in decline for a few years now? And what about the restrictions on current non EU students in order to mitigate the effect of having open door to all students within the EU it's about time we had a fairer system which allows university's to choose students on potential not passports.
No it doesn't contradict anything. I quite clearly said in an earlier post that there's been growth in the number of International Students coming to the UK to study, however this growth had been slowing in recent years due to the Government making it harder and more expensive to obtain a visa to study in the UK combined with this country's generally abhorrent attitude towards immigrants. This does not mean numbers of overseas students coming to study here have been in decline before the referendum. Meanwhile, other competitor countries who have made it easier for International students to study there have continued to see increased growth in the number of International students arriving. Clearly Brexit is going to have a further negative impact on International students coming to study in the UK which will likely result in applications from overseas students starting to fall as preliminary surveys suggest 47% of international students would find the UK a less attractive destination for study as a result of Brexit (source).
Suggesting restrictions on the number of overseas students coming here is ridiculous. Like I previously stated, they currently contribute billions to our economy while only costing us a fraction of that in their use of public services. In London alone they provide £2.8 billion a year to our GDP, while only costing us £540 million, a net economic benefit of £2.3 billion (source). In Sheffield a similar study found International students contributed a net benefit of £97.9 million to GDP (source). Why would you impose limits on the number of students coming here to study when the economic benefits they provide us with massively outweigh the cost they impose on the country as immigrants?
Finally, Universities regularly reject applications from International Students on economic grounds. My University makes offers based on a student's academic ability and English language skills. If a student does not meet our stringent entry requirements, they will not be allowed to buy their way in. I don't imagine you're an expert on Tier 4 Student Visas, but if you were you'd realise we already have a strict student immigration policy which only permits students to come and study at British Universities on academic grounds. Why not read how it works yourself - http://www.ukcisa.org.uk/Infor.....ity-and-requirements
We pay more to the EU then we get back fact! Leaving would allow us to not only match but increase the amount given to universities.
There is no chance this Government will increase funding to Universities as a result of leaving the EU. That money has already been promised to about 20 other things, and in any case the slump in economic growth caused by Brexit will likely wipe out the supposed £8 billion a year we'll 'save' from leaving Europe.
But yeah it's all fine isn't it that we've trashed our economy and some of the most lucrative sectors of our economy cos we've GOT OUR COUNTRY BACK right lads?
No it doesn't contradict anything. I quite clearly said in an earlier post that there's been growth in the number of International Students coming to the UK to study, however this growth had been slowing in recent years due to the Government making it harder and more expensive to obtain a visa to study in the UK combined with this country's generally abhorrent attitude towards immigrants. This does not mean numbers of overseas students coming to study here have been in decline before the referendum. Meanwhile, other competitor countries who have made it easier for International students to study there have continued to see increased growth in the number of International students arriving. Clearly Brexit is going to have a further negative impact on International students coming to study in the UK which will likely result in applications from overseas students starting to fall as preliminary surveys suggest 47% of international students would find the UK a less attractive destination for study as a result of Brexit (source).
Suggesting restrictions on the number of overseas students coming here is ridiculous. Like I previously stated, they currently contribute billions to our economy while only costing us a fraction of that in their use of public services. In London alone they provide £2.8 billion a year to our GDP, while only costing us £540 million, a net economic benefit of £2.3 billion (source). In Sheffield a similar study found International students contributed a net benefit of £97.9 million to GDP (source). Why would you impose limits on the number of students coming here to study when the economic benefits they provide us with massively outweigh the cost they impose on the country as immigrants?
Finally, Universities regularly reject applications from International Students on economic grounds. My University makes offers based on a student's academic ability and English language skills. If a student does not meet our stringent entry requirements, they will not be allowed to buy their way in. I don't imagine you're an expert on Tier 4 Student Visas, but if you were you'd realise we already have a strict student immigration policy which only permits students to come and study at British Universities on academic grounds. Why not read how it works yourself - http://www.ukcisa.org.uk/Infor.....ity-and-requirements
There is no chance this Government will increase funding to Universities as a result of leaving the EU. That money has already been promised to about 20 other things, and in any case the slump in economic growth caused by Brexit will likely wipe out the supposed £8 billion a year we'll 'save' from leaving Europe.
But yeah it's all fine isn't it that we've trashed our economy and some of the most lucrative sectors of our economy cos we've GOT OUR COUNTRY BACK right lads?
What are you talking about I never suggested restrictions on overseas students at all coming here, I was pointing out the fact that we currently have a system where we have non EU students at a disadvantage when applying for a university place. Maybe a cynic would think that we have made it harder for the non EU students in order to accommodate the open door freedom of movement for all students within the EU, well now we can end this discrimination and have fair and equal fees across the board thanks to the Brexit vote.
And whilst we are talking about fees dont you think it's time we enforced these EU students to actually pay their debts as they currently owe a staggering £1.3billion in British student loans, which has risen from £958million last year, I believe its time custodial sentences where handed out as a deterrent I'm sure £1.3 billion would help to keep our university's ticking over.
The slump in economic growth 😂😂 sorry to urine on your bonfire I know it hurts hearing all the good positives news regarding Brexit but the economic facts from the ONS show that growth as shot up.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
EU funding is already dropping off because much of that funding is offered for long-term projects and understandably partner institutions in Europe are unwilling to work with researchers from UK Universities since it could result in a situation where funding is reduced or lost once we boot ourselves out of the EU.
In my own institution the starting Professorial salary is about £57k, however not all undergraduate modules are delivered by professors as the majority of their roles are research based. Most teaching at undergrad level is delivered by 'Lecturers' (40k a year), 'Teaching Associates' (29k a year) and even PhD students on casual contracts (£10 an hour or so). Across the University sector we've seen a real terms decline in pay of 14.5% since 2009, so while you might see headlines about Vice Chancellors receiving giant pay rises, that's certainly not the case for the majority of professional and academic staff responsible for teaching and looking after university students. In terms of teaching, students at Universities are expected to carry out their own independent learning. Professors and other teaching staff are not there to promote rote learning for students to regurgitate in exams - they are there to guide students through the course and provide office hours to assist students who need extra support.
Ire about 'value for money' due to the scandalous increase in fees over the last two decades should be directed towards the political establishment (Labour, Tories & Lib Dems), not Universities, since they're the ones responsible for pulling up the free Higher Education ladder.
So in effect, the money has dropped out of long term research projects funded by the EU which gets that money from the UK. What you need to do is petition the UK government to redirect the funding you lost by taking that cost out of the money we pay to the EU on a daily basis.
The wage structure you list is one reason you are losing money starting at £57K, lecturers on £40K, I was offered a teaching role at a college, as I am trained to train adults, for about £20K on a zero hour contract, I can understand an increase of maybe £10k on that at a push but £40K.
What is a Teaching Associate? as teaching assistants in schools are on between £10-15K.
I understand the role of student at Uni and that most of the work is self study and research. My daughter rarely needed any help or guidance, it was the professor who was the issue. His instructions were vague and he overloaded her work compared to the others. When he gave a lecture my daughter and others asked questions to clarify the direction of research and he belittled them in front of everyone. On another occasion he made a flippant remark that upset her.
In my eyes he didn't act professionally and from what my daughter says about Professors and the like they think they are something special, and paid well above what they are worth. Value for money, you are paying for Premiership and getting non league. My daughter got a 2.1 and was a few points off a first, with proper guidance and instructions she would have got a first.
Government at the time was the one who pulled up the free education ladder but it is the Universities who are charging the max amount when they didn't need to. Also those fees are going up again, pricing out those who don't qualify for benefits.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
I don't disagree with you about the standard of teaching in Universities although it's been a while since I was there. To me the salaries seem quite low actually for someone with that level of knowledge and experience.
I doubt the government will have the money to underpin the research which will be a shame as I stated earlier. If the economy contracts in the short term, the money we pay to the EU will be pretty much gone anyway and I suspect they'll have bigger problems. In the longer term who knows but a short term fall off of funding could lead to some of the top professors moving abroad.
So in effect, the money has dropped out of long term research projects funded by the EU which gets that money from the UK. What you need to do is petition the UK government to redirect the funding you lost by taking that cost out of the money we pay to the EU on a daily basis.
The wage structure you list is one reason you are losing money starting at £57K, lecturers on £40K, I was offered a teaching role at a college, as I am trained to train adults, for about £20K on a zero hour contract, I can understand an increase of maybe £10k on that at a push but £40K.
What is a Teaching Associate? as teaching assistants in schools are on between £10-15K.
I understand the role of student at Uni and that most of the work is self study and research. My daughter rarely needed any help or guidance, it was the professor who was the issue. His instructions were vague and he overloaded her work compared to the others. When he gave a lecture my daughter and others asked questions to clarify the direction of research and he belittled them in front of everyone. On another occasion he made a flippant remark that upset her.
In my eyes he didn't act professionally and from what my daughter says about Professors and the like they think they are something special, and paid well above what they are worth. Value for money, you are paying for Premiership and getting non league. My daughter got a 2.1 and was a few points off a first, with proper guidance and instructions she would have got a first.
Government at the time was the one who pulled up the free education ladder but it is the Universities who are charging the max amount when they didn't need to. Also those fees are going up again, pricing out those who don't qualify for benefits.
The money we send to the EU will be re-directed into things like the NHS and offering tax breaks to companies to try and get them to stay here after we invoke article 50. Right now approximately £800m a year is provided by the EU to Universities for research (for reference our own Government spends £5.2 billion a year on research). Of course Universities constantly lobby Government for more research funding, but the Tories aren't going to say 'oh here's an extra £800m a year to make up for all that money you've lost now we've left the EU'.
My University is not 'losing money' (yet anyway - Brexit may change that), in recent years it has been making a comfortable annual surplus. It has however hugely slashed staff costs from approximately 60% of it's gross income five years ago to 52% today. The money saved on staffing has been spent on large capital projects (new buildings / campus infrastructure) and a similar trend has occurred across the whole sector. Academic staff in Universities are experts in their fields and incredibly experienced - their pay reflects this and I'm not sure why you feel they are overpaid. A Teaching Associate delivers Undergraduate level seminars / tutorials / lectures etc - far beyond the scope of a school teaching assistant.
I'm sorry to hear your daughter had a bad experience with her Professor. It's likely too late now, but there are recognised complaint channels for students to complain about the conduct of University staff. If your daughter was specifically required to carry out extra work and belittled in front of an audience I can't see why a complaint wouldn't have been upheld. In terms of their value, professors are remunerated based on the money they bring in to Universities through their research, like I said earlier teaching only forms a small part of their job.
Universities at the end of the day are businesses and will charge students as much as they are allowed to by the Government. Yes, the current system is unfair to poorer students, and the grants and loans now available are very poor indeed. Most Universities do however offer busaries to applicants from low-income households, but it's really up to the Government to restructure the way Higher Education is funded if they want to make degree level study more accessible to all.
The slump in economic growth 😂😂 sorry to urine on your bonfire I know it hurts hearing all the good positives news regarding Brexit but the economic facts from the ONS show that growth as shot up.
Well that's not actually true. The economy grew in the months leading up to the referendum. But the amount of growth slowed in May compared to March and April, possibly due to uncertainty caused by the referendum but there is no way to be certain. You can crow about how great the economy is now when we get the figures for June, July and August in late September, if it has grown that is. We'll see, fingers crossed it does cause no matter what you voted for, nobody wants a recession!
The money we send to the EU will be re-directed into things like the NHS and offering tax breaks to companies to try and get them to stay here after we invoke article 50. Right now approximately £800m a year is provided by the EU to Universities for research (for reference our own Government spends £5.2 billion a year on research). Of course Universities constantly lobby Government for more research funding, but the Tories aren't going to say 'oh here's an extra £800m a year to make up for all that money you've lost now we've left the EU'.
My University is not 'losing money' (yet anyway - Brexit may change that), in recent years it has been making a comfortable annual surplus. It has however hugely slashed staff costs from approximately 60% of it's gross income five years ago to 52% today. The money saved on staffing has been spent on large capital projects (new buildings / campus infrastructure) and a similar trend has occurred across the whole sector. Academic staff in Universities are experts in their fields and incredibly experienced - their pay reflects this and I'm not sure why you feel they are overpaid. A Teaching Associate delivers Undergraduate level seminars / tutorials / lectures etc - far beyond the scope of a school teaching assistant.
I'm sorry to hear your daughter had a bad experience with her Professor. It's likely too late now, but there are recognised complaint channels for students to complain about the conduct of University staff. If your daughter was specifically required to carry out extra work and belittled in front of an audience I can't see why a complaint wouldn't have been upheld. In terms of their value, professors are remunerated based on the money they bring in to Universities through their research, like I said earlier teaching only forms a small part of their job.
Universities at the end of the day are businesses and will charge students as much as they are allowed to by the Government. Yes, the current system is unfair to poorer students, and the grants and loans now available are very poor indeed. Most Universities do however offer busaries to applicants from low-income households, but it's really up to the Government to restructure the way Higher Education is funded if they want to make degree level study more accessible to all.
1. It was stated in the debates Universities would still get the funding because the money wouldn't be going through a 3rd party to then come back.
2. My daughter and others complained officially but it seems they value the professors more than the students. I know there are some great professors but the standard should be the best not what suits their ego or time.
3. No doubt some of them are experts but there are many experts, the draw isn't teaching or guiding students it is on their research and then courting funding, touring, students are 3rd or 4th in line. I mentioned time above because they spend more time on their own research and in some cases getting the students to do their work for them by telling them what they have to do their dissertations on. The gravy train doesn't stop there, professors going on seminars say to Belgium for a week, taking a phd student or two all paid for by the University, giving a 20 minute speech then having the rest of the week as a jolly. I'm sure there are plenty of other extravagant stuff that you are keeping under your hat.
4. Universities are businesses you say, and will charge as much as they are allowed, this really says it all doesn't it.
5. Bursaries are only available to low income houses, it gets you when you earn just above that level and depending where you do your degree depends on the cost of living. My daughter in Hull didn't need hardly any extra help but my son living in London, it was a nightmare.
Maybe I am cynical because of my daughter and her friends experience.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
Well that's not actually true. The economy grew in the months leading up to the referendum. But the amount of growth slowed in May compared to March and April, possibly due to uncertainty caused by the referendum but there is no way to be certain. You can crow about how great the economy is now when we get the figures for June, July and August in late September, if it has grown that is. We'll see, fingers crossed it does cause no matter what you voted for, nobody wants a recession!
To say I am crowing about how great the economy is post brexit is unfair, ever since the Referendum result although ecstatic I have managed to stay quiet to a degree. Check my earlier posts Immediately after the result, and you will see that I never came on this forum to gloat and rub it in to the remainers on here.
When I have posted about my Brexit delight it has only been in response to the doom mongers and their constant negativity, most have gone very quite now to be fair except to gloat over any scraps of bad news now and then.
I never did believe in the scare story's from the establishment but I did expect some turmoil, and I will agree we are not out of the woods for a few years, but can I ask all considering is it now wrong to defend my decision a decision I was so passionate for?
And is it wrong to now be encouraged when as it stands we are hearing about unemployment being down, wages are up, retails sales up, and UK borrowing slowing, exports up, the FTSE 100 up the FTSE 250 at a near record high, and we hear about countries that are queuing up to do trade deals with us, and not a day goes by without the announcement of a major investment in the UK. This doesn't sound to me apocalypse Brexit but the remainers don't want to acknowledges it.
I spoke to numerous people during the referendum and what made me proud was that there were some people out there, even though fearing the worse with being told they could possibly lose their jobs etc, the still voted for Brexit out of principle for the good of the Country.
And then on the other side of the coin I come on here to hear a bleating lefty remainer worried about his EU financed university, because other universities around the world have caught them up and are now sounding like they are offering a better service.... Well that's global capitalism and it will soon be time to compete when we get out the stinking EU, and just maybe even offer a better chance for more of our own students to attend.
He sounds like someone owning a coffee shop on the high street for a number of years, and then someone else comes along and opens another coffee shop but selling a better product at a cheaper price, and then starting to moan when you lose your customers FFS.
I beg to differ when You say no one wants a recession because sadly I believe there is many out there who would love, just love to see a recession just to prove themselves right. But as I say we are not there yet and there are still ups and downs to come, I did even predict a recession myself early this year regardless how the vote went but I am now more optimistic then ever that we will pull through this, and become Once again one of the great trading nations in charge of own destiny.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
You've completely misrepresented my argument (no surprises there since you've previously shown yourself totally incapable of comprehending every piece of evidence I've presented).
British Universities are not being outperformed by those in other countries. 18 of the top 100 Universities in the World are in the UK. Only the US has more in the top 100 with 30 (source). We comfortably have the best performing Universities in the entire World when you take into the relatively small size of our country and population. Students are choosing to go elsewhere due to the British Government making it harder and more expensive to obtain a visa (source), and more will now head to Australia, Canada and America due to the uncertainty caused by Brexit. I posted evidence to show 47% of International Students felt that Brexit has made the UK a less attractive study destination, but again you've chosen to totally ignore that - http://monitor.icef.com/2016/05/brexit-discourage-international-students-choosing-uk/
Clearly we are living in a post-fact society where people are happy to ignore evidence and reject the views of experts simply because they feel they're right. God help us.
You've completely misrepresented my argument (no surprises there since you've previously shown yourself totally incapable of comprehending every piece of evidence I've presented).
British Universities are not being outperformed by those in other countries. 18 of the top 100 Universities in the World are in the UK. Only the US has more in the top 100 with 30 (source). We comfortably have the best performing Universities in the entire World when you take into the relatively small size of our country and population. Students are choosing to go elsewhere due to the British Government making it harder and more expensive to obtain a visa (source), and more will now head to Australia, Canada and America due to the uncertainty caused by Brexit. I posted evidence to show 47% of International Students felt that Brexit has made the UK a less attractive study destination, but again you've chosen to totally ignore that - http://monitor.icef.com/2016/05/brexit-discourage-international-students-choosing-uk/
Clearly we are living in a post-fact society where people are happy to ignore evidence and reject the views of experts simply because they feel they're right. God help us.
So to clarify you are telling me that you have been losing non EU foreign students over the last few years because of the discriminatory increased costs to them, (in my opinion to encourage open door EU students) and these students are now going elsewhere in the world. You also say you have lost out on EU funding even though we are still part of the European Union, but you think we are still better off being in this Union and you put the blame for the university's financial difficulties solely on the Brexit vote. Can you honestly not see the problem with this?
Are you seriously basing a poll carried out by a biased organisation as factual evidence! I've heard better evidence from creationists 😂 You have already said our university's are the best in the world so do you really expect me to believe a rich Indian or Chinese student will give a excrement, that we are not ruled by the corrupt EU anymore it's total BS.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
So to clarify you are telling me that you have been losing non EU foreign students over the last few years because of the discriminatory increased costs to them, (in my opinion to encourage open door EU students) and these students are now going elsewhere in the world. You also say you have lost out on EU funding even though we are still part of the European Union, but you think we are still better off being in this Union and you put the blame for the university's financial difficulties solely on the Brexit vote. Can you honestly not see the problem with this?
Are you seriously basing a poll carried out by a biased organisation as factual evidence! I've heard better evidence from creationists 😂 You have already said our university's are the best in the world so do you really expect me to believe a rich Indian or Chinese student will give a excrement, that we are not ruled by the corrupt EU anymore it's total BS.
If they were training to be a doctor or a dentist then potentially they might as it's yet to be seen how leaving the EU will affect where the qualification is automatically accepted. Currently the degree allows you to automatically qualify for any EU country, may not be the case any more and could end up like the USA where if you have a dentist or doctors degree from the UK you have to pass further exams and even do more studying in the case of Dentistry in order to qualify there.
As far as the funding part goes, a lot of university funding will be going towards research. This is funding that isn't guaranteed year on year like the farmer's subsidies but will need to be applied for, often with two or more universities making a joint application as they're studying the same thing. If other universities undertaking the same research fear that the UK won't be eligible for the funding in two years (research can take years) which could compromise the study then they might choose to apply with other universities not based in the UK.
3. No doubt some of them are experts but there are many experts, the draw isn't teaching or guiding students it is on their research and then courting funding, touring, students are 3rd or 4th in line. I mentioned time above because they spend more time on their own research and in some cases getting the students to do their work for them by telling them what they have to do their dissertations on. The gravy train doesn't stop there, professors going on seminars say to Belgium for a week, taking a phd student or two all paid for by the University, giving a 20 minute speech then having the rest of the week as a jolly. I'm sure there are plenty of other extravagant stuff that you are keeping under your hat.
Maybe I am cynical because of my daughter and her friends experience.
Totally untrue from my experience (I graduated last year). Never once heard of or had first hand experience of a member of staff related to my course not giving their all to helping the students. They were always there to help as far was as possible, and you have to remember that unviersity is not like school or college where you are spoon fed the information, you have to be a lot more independent. Ultimately it seems your daughter was unlucky and had a bad experience with a lecturer, but I agree the cynic is coming out in you because there will always be a few bad eggs in any profession but you can't tarnish everyone with the same brush.
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Grimsby2012
GrimRob
If I don't reply to you then i didn't read your replies 
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Sadly that's not going to happen so I think we need to sort a deal asap. Hopefully, some informal negotiations can be entered into ahead of any triggering of Article 50 but I don't see that happening. Therefore, we need a leadership team in place as soon as possible but hopefully not with Boris at the helm. I think we need a leader who can unite the country (or at least the Tories) and try and heal the divisions that have been created (or probably more accurately exposed). We also need a strong effective opposition either under Corbyn or someone else who again can try and unite their party. If the politicians drag their heels, the uncertainty will only make things worse.
even on here there seems to be one or two who just cannot wait to post the slightest negative bit of news, you will notice these doom merchants never say anything positive that's been reported it really is sad, yes we are in for a bumpy ride no doubt but why can they not see the bigger picture?
) growth for next year will be down on predictions...... Erm yes along with everybody else but still growing faster!
