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 Zmariner |
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So, in other words, PH put a crap squad together last summer, less a couple of individuals. He proceeded to get us into the lower third of the league, paid the price in getting sacked and we now expect DA , with a limited transfer window, to turn things around and " make a silk purse out of a sows ear".
Exactly my point, DA deserves criticism for his lack of flexibility in approach but this squad is poor and Paul Hurst has had a nightmare. I think PH is a good manager, on this occasion he screwed up badly in recruitment and DA has to find a way to keep us up. He needs to be pragmatic as we have been pitiful at home in recent weeks |
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 Poojah |
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I think PH is a good manager, on this occasion he screwed up badly in recruitment
This is a very simple observation, and equally one that’s very hard to argue against, and yet there are so many questions to unpack from it. We know a lot about Paul Hurst as a manager. 468 of his 723 games of his managerial career were in the Town dugout. That’s a lot of football. Yes, we know his foibles, but we also know what he was reliably good at. And one of those things, in general, was recruitment. We can point to some iffiness in the 2021 January window, but it’s never easy when you’re doing that kind of distressed business (as we are now, incidentally). If you were to go through all of his signings for Town, there will be overwhelmingly more in the “outstanding” and “very good” columns than the “awful” and “very bad” ones. And let’s not forget some of the fantastic players he brought to the club even during the much maligned Fenty-era. The Hurst / Fenty XI is still a side we’d all pay to watch, I’m sure. He managed to build the promotion winning squad of 21/22 almost entirely from scratch. Only Clifton, Waterfall, McKeown and Scannell weren’t his signings, and most of them were made following our relegation. Even when things started to get sticky that season, he managed to pluck the likes of Cropper, Maguire-Drew, Holohan and Dieseruvwe out of absolutely nowhere, and look how vital each and every one of them were in that play-off campaign. Those play-offs marked a perfect end to an imperfect season, but Hurst’s recruitment that year was impeccable and profoundly prescient. To then build a squad capable of playing League Two football again in the space of less than 5 weeks; a squad that would go on to record its highest league finish in 17 years as well as our greatest cup run since 1939 (and arguably even greater in terms of over-performance) deserves immense credit. Yes, those transfer windows were at times frustrating, and the football at home was often not a great watch, but those achievements are cast iron facts. Then you get to this summer. He had every advantage over the previous year by far. More money. More time. A significant restoration of the club’s reputation. A larger back room team, replete with recruitment specialist, and data coming out of his árse. But then what happens? It’s a complete disaster. Yes, there are positives. Rose and Conteh have proven themselves. Eisa, too, has had his moments. But as a collective, it’s such a remarkable backwards step it’s hard to wrap your head around. Artell’s own recent struggles with the players at his disposal also rather serves to underline that the issue wasn’t so much Hurst’s inability to get the most from the squad, but the squad itself. The macro question is why this happened, but there are so many potential variables it’s hard to know where to start. Had Hurst simply just lost the plot? Or is there something deeper going on? - Was he asked / told to alter his approach in order to switch to a seemingly more attractive style of play? - Did he have some degree of recruitment responsibility taken away from him? - Was there an over reliance on data (or just the use of flawed data that led to the wrong conclusions)? - Was the budget actually not as big as we might anticipate, because of work that had to be done elsewhere (e.g. vital ground improvements)? - Did Hurst take his eye off the ball after being approached by Shrewsbury in the summer (as alluded to by some Shrews fans last week)? - Was it a combination of the above, or some other conspiracy theory? I’ll be completely honest; I wasn’t so much excited by the signings we made back in the summer, but rather the manner we went about it. Hurst seemed to be getting his primary targets, quickly, and the squad was largely there by mid-July. If they were good enough for him, they were good enough me. Jon Nolan taught me never to doubt the man. Only this time I should have doubted him, in hindsight. But it still doesn’t make sense to me. There are just so many unknowns between the lines of the question “how did the normally so reliable Paul Hurst get it so catastrophically wrong?”. For all of the apparent ITK types currently frequenting the forum, I don’t think I’ve seen an attempt to articulately explain it. |
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| Mappers |
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This is a very simple observation, and equally one that’s very hard to argue against, and yet there are so many questions to unpack from it.
We know a lot about Paul Hurst as a manager. 468 of his 723 games of his managerial career were in the Town dugout. That’s a lot of football. Yes, we know his foibles, but we also know what he was reliably good at.
And one of those things, in general, was recruitment. We can point to some iffiness in the 2022 January window, but it’s never easy when you’re doing that kind of distressed business (as we are now, incidentally). If you were to go through all of his signings for Town, there will be overwhelmingly more in the “outstanding” and “very good” columns than the “awful” and “very bad” ones. And let’s not forget some of the fantastic players he brought to the club even during the much maligned Fenty-era. The Hurst / Fenty XI is still a side we’d all pay to watch, I’m sure.
He managed to build the promotion winning squad of 21/22 almost entirely from scratch. Only Clifton, Waterfall, McKeown weren’t his signings, and most of them were made following our relegation. Even when things started to get sticky that season, he managed to pluck the likes of Cropper, Maguire-Drew, Holohan and Dieseruvwe out of absolutely nowhere, and look how vital each and every one of them were in that play-off campaign. Those play-offs marked a perfect end to an imperfect season, but Hurst’s recruitment that year was impeccable and profoundly prescient.
To then build a squad capable of playing League Two football again in the space of less than 5 weeks; a squad that would go on to record its highest league finish in 17 years as well as our greatest cup run since 1939 (and arguably even greater in terms of over-performance) deserves immense credit. Yes, those transfer windows were at times frustrating, and the football at home was often not a great watch, but those achievements are cast iron facts.
Then you get to this summer. He had every advantage over the previous year by far. More money. More time. A significant restoration of the club’s reputation. A larger back room team, replete with recruitment specialist, and data coming out of his árse.
But then what happens? It’s a complete disaster. Yes, there are positives. Rose and Conteh have proven themselves. Eisa, too, has had his moments. But as a collective, it’s such a remarkable backwards step it’s hard to wrap your head around. Artell’s own recent struggles with the players at his disposal also rather serve to underline that the issue wasn’t so much Hurst’s inability to get the most from the squad, but the squad itself.
The macro question is why this happened, but there are so many potential variables it’s hard to know where to start. Had Hurst simply just lost the plot? Or is there something deeper going on?
- Was he asked / told to alter his approach in order to switch to a seemingly more attractive style of play? That's what I wondered - it went from 'the football side is down to the manager ' to 'we want to do it the Grimsby way ' and have an identity in 6 months
- Did he have some degree of recruitment responsibility taken away from him? Don't think so , if so only a minimal amount of players
- Was there an over reliance on data (or just the use of flawed data that led to the wrong conclusions)? No IMO because most of the recruits were 'Hursts' players barring Conteh and maybe 1 or 2 others - data was irrelevant .
- Was the budget actually not as big as we might anticipate, because of work that had to be done elsewhere (e.g. vital ground improvements)? Possibly
- Did Hurst take his eye off the ball after being approached by Shrewsbury in the summer (as alluded to by some Shrews fans last week)? No IMO
- Was it a combination of the above, or other conspiracy theory?
No cospiracy theory here , I think he's a better manager with less resource and maybe the thinking /allignment of what direction the board wanted to take the playing style didn't match well with Hurst's style of football . Although I thought we started the season relatvely well in terms of the football we played , he tried to revert to type (albeit with more technical players who were not capable of Hurstball ) , which didn't work . I think if he had stuck with it as the start of the season we may have fared better .The goalkeeper recruitment was strange .
I’ll be completely honest; I wasn’t so much excited by the signings we made back in the summer, but rather the manner we went about it. Hurst seemed to be getting his primary targets, quickly, and the squad was largely there by mid-July. If they were good enough for him, they were good enough me. Jon Nolan taught me never to doubt the man.
Only this time I should have doubted him, in hindsight. But it still doesn’t make sense to me. There are just so many unknowns between the lines of the question “how did the normal so reliable Paul Hurst get it so catastrophically wrong?”. For all of the apparent ITK types currently frequenting the forum, I don’t think I’ve seen an attempt to articulately explain it.
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| male private Nale |
| January 29, 2024, 11:26pm |
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| It Bites |
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This is a very simple observation, and equally one that’s very hard to argue against, and yet there are so many questions to unpack from it.
We know a lot about Paul Hurst as a manager. 468 of his 723 games of his managerial career were in the Town dugout. That’s a lot of football. Yes, we know his foibles, but we also know what he was reliably good at.
And one of those things, in general, was recruitment. We can point to some iffiness in the 2021 January window, but it’s never easy when you’re doing that kind of distressed business (as we are now, incidentally). If you were to go through all of his signings for Town, there will be overwhelmingly more in the “outstanding” and “very good” columns than the “awful” and “very bad” ones. And let’s not forget some of the fantastic players he brought to the club even during the much maligned Fenty-era. The Hurst / Fenty XI is still a side we’d all pay to watch, I’m sure.
He managed to build the promotion winning squad of 21/22 almost entirely from scratch. Only Clifton, Waterfall, McKeown weren’t his signings, and most of them were made following our relegation. Even when things started to get sticky that season, he managed to pluck the likes of Cropper, Maguire-Drew, Holohan and Dieseruvwe out of absolutely nowhere, and look how vital each and every one of them were in that play-off campaign. Those play-offs marked a perfect end to an imperfect season, but Hurst’s recruitment that year was impeccable and profoundly prescient.
To then build a squad capable of playing League Two football again in the space of less than 5 weeks; a squad that would go on to record its highest league finish in 17 years as well as our greatest cup run since 1939 (and arguably even greater in terms of over-performance) deserves immense credit. Yes, those transfer windows were at times frustrating, and the football at home was often not a great watch, but those achievements are cast iron facts.
Then you get to this summer. He had every advantage over the previous year by far. More money. More time. A significant restoration of the club’s reputation. A larger back room team, replete with recruitment specialist, and data coming out of his árse.
But then what happens? It’s a complete disaster. Yes, there are positives. Rose and Conteh have proven themselves. Eisa, too, has had his moments. But as a collective, it’s such a remarkable backwards step it’s hard to wrap your head around. Artell’s own recent struggles with the players at his disposal also rather serve to underline that the issue wasn’t so much Hurst’s inability to get the most from the squad, but the squad itself.
The macro question is why this happened, but there are so many potential variables it’s hard to know where to start. Had Hurst simply just lost the plot? Or is there something deeper going on?
- Was he asked / told to alter his approach in order to switch to a seemingly more attractive style of play?
- Did he have some degree of recruitment responsibility taken away from him?
- Was there an over reliance on data (or just the use of flawed data that led to the wrong conclusions)?
- Was the budget actually not as big as we might anticipate, because of work that had to be done elsewhere (e.g. vital ground improvements)?
- Did Hurst take his eye off the ball after being approached by Shrewsbury in the summer (as alluded to by some Shrews fans last week)?
- Was it a combination of the above, or other conspiracy theory?
I’ll be completely honest; I wasn’t so much excited by the signings we made back in the summer, but rather the manner we went about it. Hurst seemed to be getting his primary targets, quickly, and the squad was largely there by mid-July. If they were good enough for him, they were good enough me. Jon Nolan taught me never to doubt the man.
Only this time I should have doubted him, in hindsight. But it still doesn’t make sense to me. There are just so many unknowns between the lines of the question “how did the normal so reliable Paul Hurst get it so catastrophically wrong?”. For all of the apparent ITK types currently frequenting the forum, I don’t think I’ve seen an attempt to articulately explain it.
Great post btw . I agree something is wrong behind the scenes for PH to intercourse up so bad in a window . A relegated GK and Defender was never the best place to build a team from . Eisa is lazy and Gnoua and Ainley ( GWS) seemed like panick additions . I don’t think there is much money available for the team and I also think the owners won’t be devastated if we go down ? |
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He came here with his eyes wide open, he wasn't thinking another promotion push was on the cards but his contract was decent and he was home every night.
Fast forward 6 months, he will soon be commuting on his own daily and he has been at loggerheads with coaches over what is expected of him that he isn't already doing.
Its like any other contractor in the UK when the job gets excrement you look put the feelers out.
Really? You seem to be heavily ITK, perhaps you could tell us who we are going to sign before the end of the window too? |
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| diehardmariner |
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It's not based on insight but more observational. The only thing I could possibly suggest occurred for Hurst to get it so wrong was that he was caught in a crossroads between his style and the style 1878 wanted.
I don't think it's a secret that the summer remit for Hurst was to change tact. Go for a brand of football that would be our trademark moving forward. That's his job card. Fine, most jobs have them. This is what we expect, crack on and we'll monitor the progress.
Great, so he's got his objective and he sets about bringing in players who will fit that approach. In some instances working with Joe Hutchinson, Conteh for example. But he doesn't go all in on it. He reverts to type. He wanted Mullarkey before so he goes back for him too. He's worked with Eisa and liked him, he goes back for him. Just two examples, do they fit this new approach we had. Conteh did, I think Rose did (although he's just one of those players that will have sat on everyone's radar), early on in the season I thought Rodgers did because he looked calm as hell on the ball (Christ, that feels a long time ago!).
But this mismatch left an awful balance. With the exception of the first handful of games it's looked disjointed ever since, now with hindsight I think perhaps it was more a case that everyone else was still finding their feet too. Hurst always built his teams some crucial elements; stability, shape and trust. Within that he would have the odd maverick type. Your Scott Neilson, Jordan Maguire-Drew and now Abo Eisa. Players with a big of magic in their boots who he could and at times would indulge enough to warrant their lack of stability, shape and trust.
This season he went against that total approach, but worst of all he didn't commit to a particular style with his recruitment. It's left us wanting in key areas. The numbers are telling that the preferred back four under Hurst (and probably Artell) is Mullarkey, Glennon, Rodgers and Maher. Yet there isn't a proper defender amongst them, Maher the most likely to take that mantle. Not a chance in hell that a Paul Hurst approach leaves you in that position.
Hurst will rightly get the daggers for his recruitment last summer, which on an individual basis I agree with Mikey that wasn't that bad. Rose was a fine addition, Conteh has made us money (and will make us more), Vernam I'm sure will come good, Eisa would normally have served as that maverick type... but collectively it's looking more and more a disaster. But I think there has to be a glance towards 1878 for enforcing an approach under a manager who perhaps wasn't best placed to do it. Of course it would have been absurd to part company with Hurst last summer. But it might have proved more sensible to take this change of approach with an evolution as opposed to revolution way.
This all said, I think I've seen enough under Artell to suggest that the vast majority of these players can play in a more fluid style, especially when going forward. It's the cutting out of stupid mistakes rather than anything that needs sorting. We've cut out the majority of those awful and incredibly basic defending errors in the last month and we've picked up a lot more points, sit comfortably in mid-table and are clamouring for a bit more of this style of play Artell wants to enforce.
Two changes in defence and I think we're a different beast altogether.
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| Maringer |
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Ultimately, the game on Saturday was terrible, but it took two awful pieces of defending from one player to gift them the goals. If we'd eked out a goalless draw or even nicked an undeserved winner, there would be a lot less catastrophising on the board, even with the appalling performance.
I've always had my reservations about Glennon Mk. II because of his lack of pace, even though he can be a decent player going forward, but he certainly seems to have the odd game (or spell) where his defending is utterly terrible. Saturday, a case in point as he simply got on the wrong side of the player for no apparent reason for the first goal then was a weak as urine (and in the wrong position) for the second.
I can't really think of an occasion where we've had such poor/unreliable defenders in both full-back positions for a very long time. You wouldn't have thought that Hurst would have got us into this position with those signings!
If the bloke from Gillingham does sign, you'd think that will help the defence to some degree because Mullarkey doesn't look like a natural defender to me, but we'll need to see Glennon hit some reasonable form defensively if he is going to remain first choice.
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| Mayaman |
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We were flying quite high at the beginning with Hurt's recruited players. If we had managed games better we could have held onto three points instead of going home with one or nowt. Even with the freefall, we wouldn't be looking over our shoulder now. The defenders have tried to play out of the back and somehow forgotten the basics. Surely, a fullback has to stop the ball coming into the box. We've let in so many soft goals - and that must demoralise the team. we even let lowly Slough put three past us. It's quite sad that I was so excited about this season but now just want to get through it.
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| ska face |
| January 30, 2024, 10:23am |
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I think Hurst generally overestimated his own ability to change the mindset and such a large group of players who had been recent failures elsewhere, based on the belief that they had some technical ability.
Eastwood - never done anything at 27 years old apart from making a string of catastrophic errors for a Rochdale side that were relegated to the conference last year. Persisted with him as no.1 until the day he got sacked
Rodgers - starting centre half at Accrington who finished second bottom of L1 last year
Mullarkey - relegated with Rochdale last year, only just crept over 100 matches total this season at age 28.
Glennon - not fancied by struggling Barrow, inconsistent last year
Vernam - noted chronic, less than 150 appearances at age 26/27 and mainly off the bench. Comes in - chronic.
Pyke - not fancied anywhere he’s been, inconsistent in every positions, never managed more than 5 or 6 in a season despite being signed as a centre forward
Ganouha/Wilson/Ainley all signed to play as part of this interchangeable lineup behind the striker. All inconsistent or injury prone to a certain extent.
That’s a lot of people to bring in and suddenly decide that you can change how they approach the game, turn them into a bunch of consistent, reliable winners when for most of their recent careers they have been inconsistent, unreliable losers. Might sound harsh but those are the facts.
Think he left himself too much to do and once you get into a habit of being not very good, and surrounded by players who are the same, it’s hard to drag yourself out of it.
There’s only Rose, Conteh and Eisa who have achieved anything close to the level which might’ve been expected of them.
Suppose you might make this argument about any of the players we bring in, that they’re inconsistent, but I don’t think we’ve ever set up a back 5 comprised entirely of people like that.
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