I can sympathise with the peaceful protesters but those scenes of violence and vandalism by the minority in London yesterday were out of order, it's lucky someone didn't receive life threatening injuries or even killed.
Then there's the total lack of social distancing that could cost more lives.
When Leeds trainer Les Cocker was once told Norman Hunter had broken a leg, he asked: “Whose is it?”
I think whilst the protestors may have some valid points none of the points are valid enough to protest in the middle of a pandemic. Better ways to make points at the minute (like black out Tuesday the other day). The rioters are nothing to do with the protest. This sort of person always appears at large London demos to cause bother/discredit the cause. Any football fan will tell you that the police at least contribute to disorder starting too and that will be no different in this circumstance.
It's been a contentious statue for a long time now and often daubed in graffiti. It should've already been removed really and maybe housed in a museum and not in a city centre as a memorial. Bizarrely Priti Patel reckons the toppling of the statue of a slave trader has distracted from the cause.
"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
A fitting end for a statue of a slaver given what they would do in the Atlantic to the slaves who wouldn’t last the journey. I hope they keep it submerged.
Maybe if you were a black person who has endured racism throughout your life then you would feel differently.
If I was black I’d probably consider the fact that I’m more likely to die if I contract Covid than other races and definitely not go out in a crowd during the pandemic!
I’d also like to say how sad it is that I’ve seen many people associated with our club wanting to go out on Saturday in Cleethorpes to ‘protect the war memorials’/counter protest our own BLM protest. (Before the little angry bald men jump on this comment - the war memorials should be left well alone but the ‘football lads’ are going to these protests under the guise of defending them)
If I was black I’d probably consider the fact that I’m more likely to die if I contract Covid than other races and definitely not go out in a crowd during the pandemic!
I’d also like to say how sad it is that I’ve seen many people associated with our club wanting to go out on Saturday in Cleethorpes to ‘protect the war memorials’/counter protest our own BLM protest. (Before the little angry bald men jump on this comment - the war memorials should be left well alone but the ‘football lads’ are going to these protests under the guise of defending them)
I would as well. But I’ve got more sympathy with people taking that risk to protest against racism than I have people packing out beaches just for a day out.
Please may I ask a serious question to those in support of the local march:
The point has been made on FB that the horrific killing of Lee Rigby did not draw the type of protest that we are seeing now. On the basis that we have seen two senseless and horrific killings, why are we drawing such a distinction between them?
For the record I am shocked and angry at the US murder but couldn't think of an answer to the above question.
Please may I ask a serious question to those in support of the local march:
The point has been made on FB that the horrific killing of Lee Rigby did not draw the type of protest that we are seeing now. On the basis that we have seen two senseless and horrific killings, why are we drawing such a distinction between them?
For the record I am shocked and angry at the US murder but couldn't think of an answer to the above question.
Lee Rigby was killed by terrorists, who were immediately arrested and imprisoned for life. He wasn’t killed by institutionalised racism in a government agency. There was nothing to “protest”, who were people supposed to be protesting against? There was also, rightly so, weeks of mourning and media coverage and national shock and upset. Lee Rigby’s family have requested that his name isn’t used to undermine the black lives matter movement.
It’s funny how those looking to disminish, downplay or make comparisons to other irrelevant situations seem to be the same flag bearers for brexit with their Union Jack waving nationalism. Why can’t you simply admit that black people have got a legitimate case to protest and say enough is enough? I’ll tell you why it’s because the way you think is exactly what black people are protesting against - widespread racism.
Lee Rigby was killed by terrorists, who were immediately arrested and imprisoned for life. He wasn’t killed by institutionalised racism in a government agency. There was nothing to “protest”, who were people supposed to be protesting against?
The counter argument here is that the terrorists were not lone wolves. There was - and probably still is - hostility towards our serving personnel even though they risks their lives each day trying to work towards peaceful settlements at home and abroad. A retired serviceman in Northants told me that serving personnel had been advised not to wear their uniform away from their barracks. Thus the protest would have been against the undercurrent of hatred/animosity against our brave service personnel, such that they were not even safe to walk our streets in broad daylight.
Back to the US situation and an election year brings a potentially big opportunity to redress the racism that exists there. Keep it on the agenda, keep the (peaceful) campaigning and maybe just maybe things might change. However it is a long struggle as things have clearly not moved very far despite a black presidential term. Baby steps but hopefully the election can bring further progress.
It’s funny how those looking to disminish, downplay or make comparisons to other irrelevant situations seem to be the same flag bearers for brexit with their Union Jack waving nationalism. Why can’t you simply admit that black people have got a legitimate case to protest and say enough is enough? I’ll tell you why it’s because the way you think is exactly what black people are protesting against - widespread racism.
I think black people do have some cause to protest but as that ex black policeman said in the video I shared " only a very small percentage of interactions between police and black people in the USA have been problematic".
Some people eg the violent protests in London and the USA are just using it as excuse to cause violence as there is not much going in their lives and they get a buzz from it.
Its interesting to note as well that in psychological research most of us have some subconscious racial bias in us albeit some more than others.Hence noone is pure and never will be but only thing we can all do is try to be better each day.
Nothing will ever change, the world is full of Black People who dont like White People, and White People who dont like Blacks. No amount of protest will ever change that. Its the world in which we live, not nice at times, but thats it.
Nothing will ever change, the world is full of Black People who dont like White People, and White People who dont like Blacks. No amount of protest will ever change that. Its the world in which we live, not nice at times, but thats it.
I think things have moved on dramatically though for black people for the better in comparisons to years gone by but like anything in this life nothing will be perfect and things can constantly be improved for all outside of police/public interactions .Hence better services eg NHS/education etc.
I have a lot of admiration though for black people who enter the police eg in the USA and here despite some of what their peers may think eg dont like police .It says a lot about their character. Tysons Fury new trainer for one springs to mind eg he was a ex black Detroit policeman.Hence police have a important job to do alongside the army who in times of national emergency work together to keep the peace and law and order.
Ultimately I think though if you have good character that overcomes most obstacles in this life regardless of race.
Ultimately I think though if you have good character that overcomes most obstacles in this life regardless of race.
That is patently not the case for a lot of black people. You are quick to highlight the trouble at these protests and make arguments based on that, but complete ignore the vast majority who didn’t get involved in any trouble. Listening to the news last night and they showed lots of stats based on employment opportunities, health, wealth etc. and black people were bottom of the pile every time.
That is patently not the case for a lot of black people. You are quick to highlight the trouble at these protests and make arguments based on that, but complete ignore the vast majority who didn’t get involved in any trouble. Listening to the news last night and they showed lots of stats based on employment opportunities, health, wealth etc. and black people were bottom of the pile every time.
Iam not making arguments though Iam just pointing mere facts.A lot of the protesters were peaceful but some were using it as excuse to riot similar to the UK riots in 2011.
I was referring more to police/black relations though.Granted that the protests went beyond police/black relations and were targeting other inequalities.But some used it unfairly to target police who were trying to do a job and got unfairly targeted violently .
As the mob masquerading as innocent protestors for the black cause criminally damage statues and demand the removal of others based on 200 year old historical events can I please put in a bid to have the statue of convicted terrorist Nelson Mandela removed from display?
On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries
I agree the "whole" statues argument going on is a minefield of contradictions.
But I do believe that if a person's reaction to the protest is to instinctively start blithering on about a minor bit of rioting and a statue being ripped down or de-faced then that person really doesn't understand or care about the racism that black people have faced for generations. It's like comparing a splinter in your finger with having terminal cancer.
If people can't see that, then in my book they are racist (however loud they protest that they are not).
I agree the "whole" statues argument going on is a minefield of contradictions.
But I do believe that if a person's reaction to the protest is to instinctively start blithering on about a minor bit of rioting and a statue being ripped down or de-faced then that person really doesn't understand or care about the racism that black people have faced for generations. It's like comparing a splinter in your finger with having terminal cancer.
If people can't see that, then in my book they are racist (however loud they protest that they are not).
But your missing my point entirely. Iam referring to the rioting in the USA which that ex black policeman in the USA was alluding to which by all accounts was quite widespread which filtered over here to a lesser extent.He states quite passionately that with hard work black people can be a success .I think thats the same here in the UK as well.Granted there maybe more obstacles with some employers(I feel a minority) showing racial bias and other areas but hard work and dedication will allow you to achieve in the job market if your tenacious and want it bad enough.Its the same for other ethnic groups as well.Hence when most people see effort/goodness of character I feel that transcends a lot of innate problems.
But your missing my point entirely. Iam referring to the rioting in the USA which that ex black policeman in the USA was alluding to which by all accounts was quite widespread which filtered over here to a lesser extent.He states quite passionately that with hard work black people can be a success .I think thats the same here in the UK as well.Granted there maybe more obstacles with some employers(I feel a minority) showing racial bias and other areas but hard work and dedication will allow you to achieve in the job market if your tenacious and want it bad enough.Its the same for other ethnic groups as well.Hence when most people see effort/goodness of character/effort I feel that transcends a lot of innate problems.
I am a white British male, work in financial services in NW England and see racism, whether intentional or not, in my company and profession every single day. If I was from a BAME background, in my profession, I would have had to work a lot harder to be in my current position (and be very, very thick-skinned).
I also see sexism every day. This is perpetrated by colleagues and clients of all backgrounds. From the white lecherous 65 year old clients where you wouldn’t send a woman to see them, through to Jewish and Muslim clients who refuse to even share a room with female colleagues. Different races and religions in the UK have a long way to go in this regard and should consider their attitudes to women, LGBT+ and gender issues whilst discussing the current situation.
We are not America. Racism is not at that level or even comparable to some European neighbours such as Italy and Spain. Most of our overt racism has gone but there is still an undercurrent, which is slowly being diluted but at glacial speeds. Many threads on this forum contain views that were borderline tolerable 30 years ago when fans were still boomeranging bananas at Barnes and Bright but are ridiculously out of touch in the modern world.
I don’t see what the right wing members of UK society want. You can never go back to the 1930s. There are over 10m non-white people in the UK. How do you want to remove them? Genocide? Deportation? Hoping they leave because of the way they are treated?The only way forward as a country is to integrate and work together to try to create a balanced society. The sooner people realise that, the better.
I am a white British male, work in financial services in NW England and see racism, whether intentional or not, in my company and profession every single day. If I was from a BAME background, in my profession, I would have had to work a lot harder to be in my current position (and be very, very thick-skinned).
I don’t see what the right wing members of UK society want. You can never go back to the 1930s. There are over 10m non-white people in the UK. How do you want to remove them? Genocide? Deportation? Hoping they leave because of the way they are treated?The only way forward as a country is to integrate and work together to try to create a balanced society. The sooner people realise that, the better.
I agree with a lot of the above. Theres still a way to go with addressing deep innate racial prejudices but I still feel goodness of character will win over most in the long run if there sustained to it long enough.
I think the problem stems in our human past.History has been one of bully tactics and greed where one county invades another country for the sake of aggrandisement etc.This is not limited to one country as you know but was caused by many around the world.Its only when we start mending the unjustness of that which still affects us to this day that humanity can truly progress.
So ripping down statues is the answer? Is it tosh. These statues for good or bad are a part of our history. They should be used to educate people on who they are and what they did rather than erase the history all together. It still happens and there is no changing that. If we go down this riot then half the old universities and historic building should be pulled down as a lot of slave money funded them. The coliseum in Rome should be flattened as slaves where forced to die there for entertainment. The left wing with their aggressive behaviour is looking more like nazis than the right. I swear to god these protests and riots have put attitudes back 40 years and is now generating new level of racism not seen for years. Racism from all colours.
So I see that the papers have branded the people watching over the statues as violent racist football thugs yet there hasn’t been any trouble or arrests from them yet the protesters who have beaten people and looted shops and injured police people and animals are seen as peaceful protesters? Load of excrement
If I was black I’d probably consider the fact that I’m more likely to die if I contract Covid than other races and definitely not go out in a crowd during the pandemic!
I’d also like to say how sad it is that I’ve seen many people associated with our club wanting to go out on Saturday in Cleethorpes to ‘protect the war memorials’/counter protest our own BLM protest. (Before the little angry bald men jump on this comment - the war memorials should be left well alone but the ‘football lads’ are going to these protests under the guise of defending them)
I find it incredible that no one has mentioned the fact that blacks were raiding our shores and dragging whites off to slavery first. Doesn't suit their agenda though I suppose.
I find it incredible that no one has mentioned the fact that blacks were raiding our shores and dragging whites off to slavery first.
Not just with the black slave trade either.Incredible when I read that the Arab slave trade was still going strong up to the late 19th century and in some parts of the world into the 20th century and even into the 21st century.
Not just with the black slave trade either.Incredible when I read that the Arab slave trade was still going strong up to the late 19th century and in some parts of the world into the 20th century and even into the 21st century.
Too many choose to forget that these shores were raided by pirates from North Africa with women and children shipped off to the slave markets on the Barbary coast, long before slavery was fashionable here. Another overlooked and unpalatable fact being that a huge percentage of slaves shipped to places like Liverpool and Bristol were rounded up and sold on by their own countrymen. Abhorrent yes, but racist?
Too many choose to forget that these shores were raided by pirates from North Africa with women and children shipped off to the slave markets on the Barbary coast, long before slavery was fashionable here. Another overlooked and unpalatable fact being that a huge percentage of slaves shipped to places like Liverpool and Bristol were rounded up and sold on by their own countrymen. Abhorrent yes, but racist?
What has this to do with life and equality in the 21st Century? Either you believe in equality for all or you do not. I think most would be shocked we still have statues in this country celebrating slavers, I certainly was.
What has this to do with life and equality in the 21st Century? Either you believe in equality for all or you do not. I think most would be shocked we still have statues in this country celebrating slavers, I certainly was.
I was as well to be fair. Its shocking what humans done to each other and are still doing to this day in other areas.
It's a battle between good and evil. In the long run good always wins which is why Iam hopeful things can change overall for the best.
As the mob masquerading as innocent protestors for the black cause criminally damage statues and demand the removal of others based on 200 year old historical events can I please put in a bid to have the statue of convicted terrorist Nelson Mandela removed from display?
You genuinely believe there shouldn't be a monument to Nelson Mandela? Yes or a no will suffice.
"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life.” Bill Shankly
You genuinely believe there shouldn't be a monument to Nelson Mandela? Yes or a no will suffice.
That's a very badly phrased question
Yes I genuinely believe there shouldn't be a monument to Nelson Mandela or do I reply 'no' there shouldn't be a monument to Nelson Mandela
Either way I don't know why there is one anyway not only was he a convicted terrorist but he wasn't even British so why have a monument to him in the middle of our capital city? Why would the UK commemorate him in any way?
On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries
Yes I genuinely believe there shouldn't be a monument to Nelson Mandela or do I reply 'no' there shouldn't be a monument to Nelson Mandela
Either way I don't know why there is one anyway not only was he a convicted terrorist but he wasn't even British so why have a monument to him in the middle of our capital city? Why would the UK commemorate him in any way?
Not sure why you struggled with the phrasing of the question, but at least I got a coherent answer.
Nelson Mandela has done more for the breaking down of racial inequality than any person in the twentieth century. A man of principle and strength, yet he still possessed the dignity to forgive those who had persecuted him and the black people of South Africa for decades.
His actions should be recognised and acknowledged throughout the world and serve as a reminder as to what can be achieved by will and an unflinching determination to overthrow the despicable system which was apartheid. The Thatcher government propped up such a system by continuing to trade with them.
There is no more of a fitting place to have such a statue than the centre of the capital, so it can serve as a reminder of our failure to hasten the downfall of apartheid and to recognise the achievements of Nelson Mandela. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I know which category I place him in.
"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life.” Bill Shankly
Not sure why you struggled with the phrasing of the question, but at least I got a coherent answer.
Nelson Mandela has done more for the breaking down of racial inequality than any person in the twentieth century. A man of principle and strength, yet he still possessed the dignity to forgive those who had persecuted him and the black people of South Africa for decades.
His actions should be recognised and acknowledged throughout the world and serve as a reminder as to what can be achieved by will and an unflinching determination to overthrow the despicable system which was apartheid. The Thatcher government propped up such a system by continuing to trade with them.
There is no more of a fitting place to have such a statue than the centre of the capital, so it can serve as a reminder of our failure to hasten the downfall of apartheid and to recognise the achievements of Nelson Mandela. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I know which category I place him in.
Doesn't look like what he achieved is doing much for the people of South Africa.
Not sure why you struggled with the phrasing of the question, but at least I got a coherent answer.
Nelson Mandela has done more for the breaking down of racial inequality than any person in the twentieth century. A man of principle and strength, yet he still possessed the dignity to forgive those who had persecuted him and the black people of South Africa for decades.
His actions should be recognised and acknowledged throughout the world and serve as a reminder as to what can be achieved by will and an unflinching determination to overthrow the despicable system which was apartheid. The Thatcher government propped up such a system by continuing to trade with them.
There is no more of a fitting place to have such a statue than the centre of the capital, so it can serve as a reminder of our failure to hasten the downfall of apartheid and to recognise the achievements of Nelson Mandela. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I know which category I place him in.
I'm glad my ex wife didn't have a necklace and little box of matches.
Why would anybody not condemn the senseless murder of three innocent people by a radical extremist? A crime is a crime. Stop trying to incite even more division.
"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life.” Bill Shankly
well thee wont be any left wing condemnation of it, as it does not fit the narrative.
The guy is a terrorist. He has been condemned by all major politicians regardless of political colour. He should (and will) feel the full force of British law. I'm unashamedly left wing and condemn him totally. I do however save some of my condemnation for a government which knew about this guy-had him under observation etc but failed to prevent him carrying out his crimes..
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
Why would anybody not condemn the senseless murder of three innocent people by a radical extremist? A crime is a crime. Stop trying to incite even more division.
I don't think that you can create more division than Islamist extremists killing non Islamists because of their beliefs. This wasn't just a crime it was a hate crime, stop trying to make it sound as if it isn't.
I don't think that you can create more division than Islamist extremists killing non Islamists because of their beliefs. This wasn't just a crime it was a hate crime, stop trying to make it sound as if it isn't.
Undoubtedly a hate crime. At no point would I suggest otherwise. I maintain you are trying to incite more division and hate. He will face the full force of the law. How can you entwine it with left wing politics and BLM? I honestly despair.
Are you truly ignorant to the systemic racism faced by blacks across Britain and America for the last 300 years. Don't muddy the waters by trying to link the heinous murders in Reading.
"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life.” Bill Shankly
Undoubtedly a hate crime. At no point would I suggest otherwise. I maintain you are trying to incite more division and hate. He will face the full force of the law. How can you entwine it with left wing politics and BLM? I honestly despair.
Are you truly ignorant to the systemic racism faced by blacks across Britain and America for the last 300 years. Don't muddy the waters by trying to link the heinous murders in Reading.
You said a crime is a crime, this wasn't just any crime as I stated and where the intercourse did I bring left wing politics into it? You are making things up again to put forward your agenda and I haven't suggested anything faced by racism against Blacks and are you truly ignorant of the thousands of people murdered in the name of Islam?
You said a crime is a crime, this wasn't just any crime as I stated and where the intercourse did I bring left wing politics into it? You are making things up again to put forward your agenda and I haven't suggested anything faced by racism against Blacks and are you truly ignorant of the thousands of people murdered in the name of Islam?
What is my agenda?
And I stand corrected as regards the left wing politics comment, that was another poster.
Do you oppose the black lives matter movement?
"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life.” Bill Shankly
So did Pep Guardiola as well, which is great to see, called for fighting injustice all around the world, just wonder if he was inlcuding his Saudi Arabian paymaster in that? Wonder if he wanted to call out Saudi Arabia on its record on Racism, Anti-semitism, persecution of homosexuals etc,etc, or should we just allow this virtue signalling bullshit to go on without check?
I oppose violence in the name of any movement whether it be black, white, or pink with yellow spots. I think as a movemebt BLM has a confrontational aspect to it, which in the end will only see the rsie again of far right factions. I think it could end up doing more harm than good.
I think the rise of the far right precedes BLM, it’s no coincidence that in times of austerity and swathes of cutbacks to public services the far right, as they have done in the past have capitalised and reached out in their bigoted and generally awful way to those disaffected or those who are desperate to belong to something.
Their rhetoric is hateful and hurtful but now, as has in the past, been shrouded in nationalistic ideology to attract folk...queen and country and all that balderdash. Where a poppy. Proud of dear old Blighty and all that jazz.
As has been explained countless times, BLM isn’t actually about colour of skin or ethnicity, equally, claiming All Lives Matter is just hilarious, becauee again, the people chanting that don’t actually fully grasp the skewed concept of those right wingers promoting it.
And again we see it, terrorist attack, people saying where’s the protests blah blah...forgetting that the culprit was arrested and will receive justice...but as Barra pointed out, perhaps those queen and country loving types could ask the question of how a man remained on a watch list for a sustained period and still wasn’t stopped, even though we do in fact have ways and means of doing that legally...perhaps that should be the protest...
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
, as has in the past, been shrouded in nationalistic ideology to attract folk...queen and country and all that balderdash. Where a poppy. Proud of dear old Blighty and all that jazz.
.
Thats not rubbish.The national front hijacked the bulldog and the union jack which then tarnished these symbols.
A lot of brave soldiers have given up their lives and been horrifically injured for trying to serve a greater good when serving their country's. Likewise some when they come back to normal life cant cope with the horrors they have seen and sadly end up taking their own lives.
Similar slogans have also been used to symbolise the military in standing up for a greater good eg Pro Deo et patria ("for God and country") is a Latin phrase used as the motto of many families, military regiments and educational institutions.
So did Pep Guardiola as well, which is great to see, called for fighting injustice all around the world, just wonder if he was inlcuding his Saudi Arabian paymaster in that? Wonder if he wanted to call out Saudi Arabia on its record on Racism, Anti-semitism, persecution of homosexuals etc,etc, or should we just allow this virtue signalling bullshit to go on without check?
Reading some of the City websites there are a lot of people uncomfortable with the influence of Saudi Arabia at the club. That may be hypocrisy at its most extreme but other than refusing to support the club anymore what can an individual do? It's one of the reasons I dislike the circus that is the Premier League but I would find it extremely hard to stop supporting the club I've followed for over 50 years because of issues around the behaviour of the owners. On a slightly different point I find it totally abhorrent that we as a country sell the hardware to the likes of Saudi Arabia that helps them to carry out the policies you have quoted..
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
I oppose violence in the name of any movement whether it be black, white, or pink with yellow spots. I think as a movemebt BLM has a confrontational aspect to it, which in the end will only see the rsie again of far right factions. I think it could end up doing more harm than good.
I fear that the violence linked to the BLM movement allows detractors to focus on "whataboutery". History unfortunately tells us that entirely peaceful protest doesn't always ensure movements for change are successful. I'm not sure Votes for Women would have achieved their aims as quickly as they did although I readily accept that the role women played in the victory in WW1 helped their cause considerably.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
I have to say I find 'taking the knee' somewhat ironic given the way George Floyd was murdered but what I really object to is not the kneeling but the clenched fist salute adopted whilst doing it.
Too many have been watching the US sprinters 'black power' salute and protest at the 1968 Olympics I think.
Surely BLM is not about 'black power'
On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries
I have to say I find 'taking the knee' somewhat ironic given the way George Floyd was murdered but what I really object to is not the kneeling but the clenched fist salute adopted whilst doing it.
Too many have been watching the US sprinters 'black power' salute and protest at the 1968 Olympics I think.
Surely BLM is not about 'black power'
exactly my thoughts, there is an agression to this movement, i maintain that it has become and will contunue to become confronational.
Interesting article which makes the case for "the oppostion" as expected from Johnson's former employer. I'll gloss over the fact that City aren't owned by the Saudis 😨. The point it fails to make though is that for thousands of youngsters up and down the country these players represent role models. The likes of the Spectator and the right wing gutter press are quick to jump on these young footballers when their behaviour (often) falls short. If even a few kids adapt their behaviour because of this stand then for me that must be a positive. I'm a firm believer that no-one is born a racist. This stand should be seen as an attempt at countering other influences on them which sadly too often incluse parental.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
It doesn't seem to matter what government we elect we seem to be ruled by mob hatred of our history and culture,aided and abetted by the media who seem scared to put the majority view forward.
We will become a powder keg soon if there I'd not a balanced discussion to be had about the future of the UK.
Interesting article which makes the case for "the oppostion" as expected from Johnson's former employer. I'll gloss over the fact that City aren't owned by the Saudis 😨. The point it fails to make though is that for thousands of youngsters up and down the country these players represent role models. The likes of the Spectator and the right wing gutter press are quick to jump on these young footballers when their behaviour (often) falls short. If even a few kids adapt their behaviour because of this stand then for me that must be a positive. I'm a firm believer that no-one is born a racist. This stand should be seen as an attempt at countering other influences on them which sadly too often incluse parental.
Really? Do you not find any hypocrisy say in the stance of someone like Raheem Sterling? Quite happy to bite the hand that feeds, even if that hand is fed by a migrant slave economy?
I have to say I find 'taking the knee' somewhat ironic given the way George Floyd was murdered but what I really object to is not the kneeling but the clenched fist salute adopted whilst doing it.
Too many have been watching the US sprinters 'black power' salute and protest at the 1968 Olympics I think.
Surely BLM is not about 'black power'
I hadn't really noticed that to be fair. The Black Power Movement was of its time. It's kind of funny that we are still talking about something that happened 52 years ago. Depending on your point of view that could suggest that the gesture did its job..funnily enough I was playing in an on-line quiz at the weekend and that picture was shown. The question was "Who was the white athlete who finished second?" I didn't have a clue. Not sure why it has come into play now but would agree it's not about "Black Power".
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
It doesn't seem to matter what government we elect we seem to be ruled by mob hatred of our history and culture,aided and abetted by the media who seem scared to put the majority view forward.
We will become a powder keg soon if there I'd not a balanced discussion to be had about the future of the UK.
Well said.Truth always comes out in the end and good is always the stronger force.
From the origins of man there has always been evil in all races/society's. Hence humanity is one of constant flux but things are moving in the right direction.I know not everyone on here is religious which Iam but my favourite writer I think sums it up(battle between good v bad) when he said:
“Human history is the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy.”
I hadn't really noticed that to be fair. The Black Power Movement was of its time. It's kind of funny that we are still talking about something that happened 52 years ago. Depending on your point of view that could suggest that the gesture did its job..funnily enough I was playing in an on-line quiz at the weekend and that picture was shown. The question was "Who was the white athlete who finished second?" I didn't have a clue. Not sure why it has come into play now but would agree it's not about "Black Power".
The athlete who came 2nd at the 1968 Olympics and won Silver in the 200 metres was Peter Norman. He wore an 'Olympic project for human rights' badge when taking to the podium as a show of support for Tommie Smith and John Carlos. From that point he was ostracised by the Australian Olympic committee and the Australian media and despite qualifying for the subsequent Olympics the Australian committee would not send him, he was also made unwelcome at the 2000 Sydney Olympics unlike other previous Australian medal winning athletes who were invited to present medals.
There is a great documentary about it called The Salute.
"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
It doesn't seem to matter what government we elect we seem to be ruled by mob hatred of our history and culture,aided and abetted by the media who seem scared to put the majority view forward.
We will become a powder keg soon if there I'd not a balanced discussion to be had about the future of the UK.
I'm not trying to be clever/funny here but if asking for a balanced discussion probably best to avoid phrases like "mob hatred of our history and culture aided and abetted by the media". I and I'm sure millions of ordinary British folk do not recognise that description. Attitudes change over time and I see no problem with children being educated for example that not only did Robert Clive "win" India for the British Empire but that the East India Company relied on the sometimes ruthless subjugation of the native Indian population in order to extract the maximum wealth. It doesn't change what happened and that Britain became the world's most powerful country for the best part of 200 years benefitting our ancestors. I'm not at all sure that anything is to be gained by today's generations apologising for what went on. Attitudes change and at the height of the Empire we were still sending British children up chimneys or putting them to work in workhouses. I confess to being confused by your use of the phrase "majority view". Who makes up this majority and which particular view is being ignored? As for the media assistance I couldn't disagree more strongly. Firstly may I recommend watching any of the niche history programmes brilliantly put together by the BBC and SKY for unbiased appraisal of all aspects of our history. Secondly our media contains aspects which have spent years fomenting the very problems you hope to avoid. There is nothing balanced about the coverage of minorities or history of the Mail, Express, Sun, Telegraph and on the left the Mirror and Guardian. Criticism of the media is something that appears to have escalated recently when they have published/broadcast inconvenient truths which have challenged people's perceptions. We can and surely should rejoice in our victories against the likes of aggressors such as Philip II of Spain (The Armada) and Napoleon (perm any one from several magnificent leaders and victories) but it doesn't do any harm to recognise that we were not without fault in many cases.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
I hadn't really noticed that to be fair. The Black Power Movement was of its time. It's kind of funny that we are still talking about something that happened 52 years ago. Depending on your point of view that could suggest that the gesture did its job..funnily enough I was playing in an on-line quiz at the weekend and that picture was shown. The question was "Who was the white athlete who finished second?" I didn't have a clue. Not sure why it has come into play now but would agree it's not about "Black Power".
The Telewag printed a photograph of a BLM march / demo in Hull a few days ago. Firstly I couldn't see many black faces anyway but what struck me most was the sight of two young white women right at the front centre shot both with a raised clenched fist as had many many others in the background
If the 1968 protest has had its day why are so many using it in 2020,as in the Spectator photo above, both players are doing it, I don't know who they are their shirts say they are called 'Black Lives Matter', thankfully the referee is not.
So many have jumped on it that the band wagon must surely be overcrowded now
On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries
The athlete who came 2nd at the 1968 Olympics and won Silver in the 200 metres was Peter Norman. He wore an 'Olympic project for human rights' badge when taking to the podium as a show of support for Tommie Smith and John Carlos. From that point he was ostracised by the Australian Olympic committee and the Australian media and despite qualifying for the subsequent Olympics the Australian committee would not send him, he was also made unwelcome at the 2000 Sydney Olympics unlike other previous Australian medal winning athletes who were invited to present medals.
There is a great documentary about it called The Salute.
Thanks for posting...
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
The Telewag printed a photograph of a BLM march / demo in Hull a few days ago. Firstly I couldn't see many black faces anyway but what struck me most was the sight of two young white women right at the front centre shot both with a raised clenched fist as had many many others in the background
If the 1968 protest has had its day why are so many using it in 2020,as in the Spectator photo above, both players are doing it, I don't know who they are their shirts say they are called 'Black Lives Matter', thankfully the referee is not.
So many have jumped on it that the band wagon must surely be overcrowded now
My last point..It could be argued that Black Lives Matter marches consisting only of black people would have an aspect of preaching to the converted. For me there is some powerful message in white people getting behind the movement. Yeah I get that there is a lot of bandwagon jumping-it happens. One only has to look at the increasingly bizarre clapping for the NHS "rituals" often by people who must have voted for the party that cannot under any circumstances be described as the friend of the NHS.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
My last point..It could be argued that Black Lives Matter marches consisting only of black people would have an aspect of preaching to the converted. For me there is some powerful message in white people getting behind the movement. Yeah I get that there is a lot of bandwagon jumping-it happens. One only has to look at the increasingly bizarre clapping for the NHS "rituals" often by people who must have voted for the party that cannot under any circumstances be described as the friend of the NHS.
Superb point. The pandemic may have led the government to rethink its policy of dismantling sections of the NHS and selling it off to the highest bidder. Although, not even sure that Boris's brush with death (as we are led to believe) will see him shift from this stance.
"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life.” Bill Shankly
I'm not trying to be clever/funny here but if asking for a balanced discussion probably best to avoid phrases like "mob hatred of our history and culture aided and abetted by the media". I and I'm sure millions of ordinary British folk do not recognise that description. Attitudes change over time and I see no problem with children being educated for example that not only did Robert Clive "win" India for the British Empire but that the East India Company relied on the sometimes ruthless subjugation of the native Indian population in order to extract the maximum wealth. It doesn't change what happened and that Britain became the world's most powerful country for the best part of 200 years benefitting our ancestors. I'm not at all sure that anything is to be gained by today's generations apologising for what went on. Attitudes change and at the height of the Empire we were still sending British children up chimneys or putting them to work in workhouses. I confess to being confused by your use of the phrase "majority view". Who makes up this majority and which particular view is being ignored? As for the media assistance I couldn't disagree more strongly. Firstly may I recommend watching any of the niche history programmes brilliantly put together by the BBC and SKY for unbiased appraisal of all aspects of our history. Secondly our media contains aspects which have spent years fomenting the very problems you hope to avoid. There is nothing balanced about the coverage of minorities or history of the Mail, Express, Sun, Telegraph and on the left the Mirror and Guardian. Criticism of the media is something that appears to have escalated recently when they have published/broadcast inconvenient truths which have challenged people's perceptions. We can and surely should rejoice in our victories against the likes of aggressors such as Philip II of Spain (The Armada) and Napoleon (perm any one from several magnificent leaders and victories) but it doesn't do any harm to recognise that we were not without fault in many cases.
When the left win an election they can set the agenda. That is the way it has worked up to this point.
Of course you can't see any of my points as you come from a completely different perspective but I bet "millions of ordinary Britons " do indeed recognise my point of mob rule aided and abetted by a cowed media.
I hadn't really noticed that to be fair. The Black Power Movement was of its time. It's kind of funny that we are still talking about something that happened 52 years ago. Depending on your point of view that could suggest that the gesture did its job..funnily enough I was playing in an on-line quiz at the weekend and that picture was shown. The question was "Who was the white athlete who finished second?" I didn't have a clue. Not sure why it has come into play now but would agree it's not about "Black Power".
But this is the issue, the original stance taken was not accoring to Tommie Smith about Black Power, but about Human Rights....it seems confrontational to me. The other thing about this, is would they do it in a full stadium? Are players from lower leagues to be given the opportunity, and how woudl that play out?
I oppose anyone who takes to violence on the streets of this country.
Common ground at last!!!😉
Still not sure of my agenda though?!?!
"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life.” Bill Shankly
Superb point. The pandemic may have led the government to rethink its policy of dismantling sections of the NHS and selling it off to the highest bidder. Although, not even sure that Boris's brush with death (as we are led to believe) will see him shift from this stance.
People have been saying the NHS will be sold off since I was a lad, yet here we are in 2020 with most of its history being under a Conservative government and it is going from strength to strength.
I think there are a fair few mistaking anti-racism with black supremacy.
All those BLM protestors holding up a clenched fist for a start. Kneeling is one thing but how does holding up a clenched fist in any way signify anti-racism
On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries
All those BLM protestors holding up a clenched fist for a start. Kneeling is one thing but how does holding up a clenched fist in any way signify anti-racism
You're old enough to remember the 1968 Mexico Olympics, with Tommy Smith and John Carlos.
No attempt at ethical or social seduction can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred of the Tory party. So far as I'm concerned they're lower than vermin. Aneurin Bevan.
People have been saying the NHS will be sold off since I was a lad, yet here we are in 2020 with most of its history being under a Conservative government and it is going from strength to strength.
Haha. Strength to strength!!!! You should do PR for the government.
"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life.” Bill Shankly
What else would you like to happen to the NHS? Do you want even more money spent on it, and if so what would you cut to pay for it?
The arguments around the NHS have been done to death on here and elsewhere but the fight against Covid-19 has showed the consequences of 10 years of underfunding-report findings ignored etc. etc. resulting in the deaths of hundreds of peoplease who had the right to be protected in their place of work. If the country is to deal with potentially second and further waves of this or even new viruses then I'm afraid more money will have to be spent on the NHS and the Government will have to reprioritise their commitments.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
When the left win an election they can set the agenda. That is the way it has worked up to this point.
Of course you can't see any of my points as you come from a completely different perspective but I bet "millions of ordinary Britons " do indeed recognise my point of mob rule aided and abetted by a cowed media.
Fair enough you don't want a reasoned debate.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
The arguments around the NHS have been done to death on here and elsewhere but the fight against Covid-19 has showed the consequences of 10 years of underfunding-report findings ignored etc. etc. resulting in the deaths of hundreds of peoplease who had the right to be protected in their place of work. If the country is to deal with potentially second and further waves of this or even new viruses then I'm afraid more money will have to be spent on the NHS and the Government will have to reprioritise their commitments.
Just how much more money would you like spending on it? Where would the extra billions come from? Would you be happy,say, if we scrapped the overseas aid budget and gave it all to the NHS?
I have used the NHS all my life and there has never been a problem that wasn't reasonable.
What you want is nirvana but it is not possible.
And why is everything the government's fault? What about the hundreds of highly paid middle managers who are paid to ensure the NHS runs smoothly- should they not be blamed?
How about reducing the less important services which are cosmetic or refusing to treat drunks and drug users that infest the service?
Just how much more money would you like spending on it? Where would the extra billions come from? Would you be happy,say, if we scrapped the overseas aid budget and gave it all to the NHS?
I have used the NHS all my life and there has never been a problem that wasn't reasonable.
What you want is nirvana but it is not possible.
And why is everything the government's fault? What about the hundreds of highly paid middle managers who are paid to ensure the NHS runs smoothly- should they not be blamed?
How about reducing the less important services which are cosmetic or refusing to treat drunks and drug users that infest the service?
Seeing as how you've asked:- I'd scrap HS2 -if the pandemic has shown anything it has shown that there is no need for businessmen to have to get from London to Birmingham 15 minutes quicker. I wouldn't upgrade Trident.
I'd add 1p in the pound to the rate of Income Tax and ring fence the money for the NHS.
I certainly wouldn't play God and decide who could or couldn't be treated.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
I will defend my political beliefs as fiercely as you do yours.
"Fiercely"? I was hoping that in the spirit of reasonable debate you might try to answer some of the points I raised. Your choice of course but a shame. Still I had as much flak from people on the far left for my views on history (in particular statues) as I have from the Right on here.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
And I stand corrected as regards the left wing politics comment, that was another poster.
Do you oppose the black lives matter movement?
As regards your agenda it is my humble opinion that anyone who opposes the Black Lives Matter movement you assume is a racist.
As regards left wing politics it looks like support is ebbing away from the BLM with some high profile black ex players, Sky Sports pundits, the BBC and now the Premier League because of its extreme left wing views,
As regards your agenda it is my humble opinion that anyone who opposes the Black Lives Matter movement you assume is a racist.
As regards left wing politics it looks like support is ebbing away from the BLM with some high profile black ex players, Sky Sports pundits, the BBC and now the Premier League because of its extreme left wing views,
I would hate it if anyone would say "I told you so"
Another day and another bandwagon hits the buffers.
The hard left cannot win elections so they try to ride on the back of protest movements to get the societal changes they want. It is never going to happen but if they want to spend their time trying that's up to them.
Just how much more money would you like spending on it? Where would the extra billions come from? Would you be happy,say, if we scrapped the overseas aid budget and gave it all to the NHS?
How about reducing the less important services which are cosmetic or refusing to treat drunks and drug users that infest the service?
Both of these get a yes from me
On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries
Would you be happy,say, if we scrapped the overseas aid budget and gave it all to the NHS?
Put me down for that as well as scrapping HS2 and there will be about at the very least £120 billion if not double that if HS2 costs soar as any Goverment's projects usually do.
Think I saw the "Black Lives Matter" protestors are planning another protest in Cleethorpes on the 12th of this month.
Yes but it's gone very quiet. Might be something to do with the fact that the organisers are not from "the far left" but are centre-left Lib Dems who may have done their own research on BLMs agenda.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
Yes but it's gone very quiet. Might be something to do with the fact that the organisers are not from "the far left" but are centre-left Lib Dems who may have done their own research on BLMs agenda.
It has been obvious from the start that BLM was the latest cover for far left groups who want to change our way of life without resorting to the ballot box.
It has been obvious from the start that BLM was the latest cover for far left groups who want to change our way of life without resorting to the ballot box.
All lives matter.
I'm talking about the local branch. All lives do matter but in my idealistic little lefty world that includes migrants and asylum seekers both groups that the Right in this country backed by well over half of the mainstream press are fully supportive of. ☺
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
I'm talking about the local branch. All lives do matter but in my idealistic little lefty world that includes migrants and asylum seekers both groups that the Right in this country backed by well over half of the mainstream press are fully supportive of. ☺
Out of interest in your idealistic lefty world what number of migrants and asylum seekers would you consider a fair number for the UK to accept?
From my right wing perspective I think we have reached the limit. Multiculturalism as an experiment has failed. We now have several different cultures not integrating with each other and have many English towns split down the middle between areas that are no go zones for other communities. Not a healthy situation.
We learned this week in Leicester that third and 4th generations of migrants are unable to speak or understand English and a lot of the Asian community leading completely separate lives and following their own rules.
This situation will only get worse and it is not good for the future.
Out of interest in your idealistic lefty world what number of migrants and asylum seekers would you consider a fair number for the UK to accept?
From my right wing perspective I think we have reached the limit. Multiculturalism as an experiment has failed. We now have several different cultures not integrating with each other and have many English towns split down the middle between areas that are no go zones for other communities. Not a healthy situation.
We learned this week in Leicester that third and 4th generations of migrants are unable to speak or understand English and a lot of the Asian community leading completely separate lives and following their own rules.
This situation will only get worse and it is not good for the future.
Well I spend a lot of time in Nottingham where broadly different cultures mix and get on relatively well. Leicester too is a quite well integrated city. Sheffield, Greater Manchester, Leeds similarly so. It's a while since I heard the old "no go area" exaggeration. Probably a waste of time but I'll ask anyway. Have you any proof of this? I'm surprised about the lack of English speaking (if true, which it probably is) and cannot see how that is good but I wonder how widespread it is. Do you have a view on the Government's invite to a few million current residents of Hong Kong who we seem to be able to find room for? As far as I can see none of your post refers to actual asylum seekers. I believe and always have done that as a civilised country we should take in those fleeing war and persecution. In the 90's I was involved in integrating the Kosovan refugees into Britain (well those that came to Grimsby). They were primarily young men who some on the Right believe should have stayed to fight-in this case Milosovic's Serbs. The stories that came out were so dreadful that some of my staff required counselling. This was a war which took place in Europe. I suspect that we can only imagine what they went through and I'd bet a significant part of my income that Syrians, Libyans and the like have stories to tell that are on a par.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
Well I spend a lot of time in Nottingham where broadly different cultures mix and get on relatively well. Leicester too is a quite well integrated city. Sheffield, Greater Manchester, Leeds similarly so. It's a while since I heard the old "no go area" exaggeration. Probably a waste of time but I'll ask anyway. Have you any proof of this? I'm surprised about the lack of English speaking (if true, which it probably is) and cannot see how that is good but I wonder how widespread it is. Do you have a view on the Government's invite to a few million current residents of Hong Kong who we seem to be able to find room for? As far as I can see none of your post refers to actual asylum seekers. I believe and always have done that as a civilised country we should take in those fleeing war and persecution. In the 90's I was involved in integrating the Kosovan refugees into Britain (well those that came to Grimsby). They were primarily young men who some on the Right believe should have stayed to fight-in this case Milosovic's Serbs. The stories that came out were so dreadful that some of my staff required counselling. This was a war which took place in Europe. I suspect that we can only imagine what they went through and I'd bet a significant part of my income that Syrians, Libyans and the like have stories to tell that are on a par.
Spot on. People in areas that are actually multicultural tend to get on pretty well. Britain is a great place to live and benefits from the many people that come to live here.
Also the idea that BLM is centrally organised is a nonsense. A small group of people have set up a Twitter account calling themselves the official BLM and Twitter has given them a blue tick legitimising it. They don’t represent what is an organic worldwide movement nor did they create it.
BLM matters because in many countries including the UK and US if you’re black life will be harder for you than if you’re white even if you have exactly the same circumstances.
My brother Peter was at Uni in London 17 years ago and 99% of his friends were of foreign origin, Indian, Pakistani, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek, German, French, Swiss etc etc, I Met most of them when I regularly visited Peter, every single one of them were lovely friendly people, he ended up marrying an Indian girl and staying in London were he now works, they have a lovely family and Roopa’s family are the friendliest people you would ever meet, they made my family feel very very welcome indeed.
The anecdotal evidence from some posters about their experiences with multi- culturism is great to hear, but you would be very naive to think it is like that in huge swathes of towns and cities in the UK where there are big cultural divides.
Let's hope the new immigration rules will reduce the flow of people who have no intention of integrating but I wont hold my breath.
The anecdotal evidence from some posters about their experiences with multi- culturism is great to hear, but you would be very naive to think it is like that in huge swathes of towns and cities in the UK where there are big cultural divides.
Let's hope the new immigration rules will reduce the flow of people who have no intention of integrating but I wont hold my breath.
Immigration is all well and good but the key is putting nature first.As David Attenborough has alluded to overpopulation by the human species is already causing problems in many parts of the natural world today.
There are hundreds of articles like that all desperate to tell us unlimited immigration has been nothing but a rip roaring success...
Key quote from the article in the first sentence saying the research “is the most comprehensive, evidence-based assessment of the impact of immigration on the UK ever published.”
Why has it not been a success? I actually like living in Britain, granted it’s not perfect, I’m glad my family decided to migrate here generations ago, not that many generations for some of them.
Key quote from the article in the first sentence saying the research “is the most comprehensive, evidence-based assessment of the impact of immigration on the UK ever published.”
Why has it not been a success? I actually like living in Britain, granted it’s not perfect, I’m glad my family decided to migrate here generations ago, not that many generations for some of them.
Fair point.I dont think noone is fully English though.Hence we all originated from Africa before the first invasion by the Romans to English shores.
Even Queen Elizabeth has a multitude of foreign blood in her eg ,German,Spanish and Swedish amongst others.
There are hundreds of articles like that all desperate to tell us unlimited immigration has been nothing but a rip roaring success...
We have always had the wherewithal to limit immigration for anyone coming from outside of the EU. One wonders why the Government that has been in power from 2010 allowed non-EU immigration to increase...
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
We have always had the wherewithal to limit immigration for anyone coming from outside of the EU. One wonders why the Government that has been in power from 2010 allowed non-EU immigration to increase...
Well that is one thing we can agree on. They keep promising to reduce immigration, people keep voting for them expecting it to happen- rinse and repeat.
Of course this is one of the many reasons why voters don't want a Labour government- they wouldn't even pretend to bother about the scale of immigration.
Quite a bit of waffle there. Anyone can quote figures without actually saying how they are made up. That figure of a migrant paying £78,000 into the UK coffers isn't that much over a lifetime.
Quite a bit of waffle there. Anyone can quote figures without actually saying how they are made up. That figure of a migrant paying £78,000 into the UK coffers isn't that much over a lifetime.
It doesn't matter what figures they pull out of the air. The wholesale changes to many of our towns and cities just isn't worth it.
Any increase in GDP doesnt mean diddly squat - spread over an ever increasing population means we will see no discernable benefit.
Of course any increase in absolute GDP is tempered by the huge costs of benefits paid to some sectors of the immigrant population who are unemployable both in terms of their culture and attitude, yet every single one needs housing and the increased costs associated with schooling, infrastructure, health provision and so on.
Controlled integrated immigration good. Communities living parallel lives and not contributing to the whole country not good at all.
It doesn't matter what figures they pull out of the air. The wholesale changes to many of our towns and cities just isn't worth it.
Any increase in GDP doesnt mean diddly squat - spread over an ever increasing population means we will see no discernable benefit.
Of course any increase in absolute GDP is tempered by the huge costs of benefits paid to some sectors of the immigrant population who are unemployable both in terms of their culture and attitude, yet every single one needs housing and the increased costs associated with schooling, infrastructure, health provision and so on.
Controlled integrated immigration good. Communities living parallel lives and not contributing to the whole country not good at all.
Oh dear you keep coming out with these unsubstantiated statements "huge cost of benefits paid to some sectors of the immigrant population" just being the latest.. In an earlier contribution you talked about different cultures being a barrier to integration. One of the tenets particularly of Asian culture is their belief in family as an entity. There is no way that for example an Asian family would contemplate putting an elderly relative into a care home/nursing home scenario (unless there is a medical need). It is sadly one of the reasons that Covid has caused a higher than normal mortality rate amongst the Asian community. The greatest drain on the adult social care budget is the help given to elderly people. The most intriguing part of what you say for me though is where you consider the tag of immigrant should end. There is undoubtedly large pockets of unemployment amongst ethnic minorities in some of our big cities iespecially amongst afro-Caribbean groups. A lot of these youngsters are third even fourth generation. They were born here.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
Oh dear you keep coming out with these unsubstantiated statements "huge cost of benefits paid to some sectors of the immigrant population" just being the latest.. In an earlier contribution you talked about different cultures being a barrier to integration. One of the tenets particularly of Asian culture is their belief in family as an entity. There is no way that for example an Asian family would contemplate putting an elderly relative into a care home/nursing home scenario (unless there is a medical need). It is sadly one of the reasons that Covid has caused a higher than normal mortality rate amongst the Asian community. The greatest drain on the adult social care budget is the help given to elderly people. The most intriguing part of what you say for me though is where you consider the tag of immigrant should end. There is undoubtedly large pockets of unemployment amongst ethnic minorities in some of our big cities iespecially amongst afro-Caribbean groups. A lot of these youngsters are third even fourth generation. They were born here.
Yes my statement was so unsubstantiated you agree with it!
We are not an Asian country are we? We are predominantly a white Christian country and if large parts of some towns and cities more resemble Pakistan and we are paying a fortune in benefits to as you quite rightly say to even 3rd and 4th generation immigrants can you remind us all of the benefits of immigration in such numbers?
You are obviously pro immigration come what may; I would prefer an immigration system that encourages the brightest and the best who give added value to the UK. I would argue that yours is the more extreme position. People keep voting in governments who propose a more controlled immigration policy and keep rejecting parties who advocate no controls.
Yes my statement was so unsubstantiated you agree with it!
We are not an Asian country are we? We are predominantly a white Christian country and if large parts of some towns and cities more resemble Pakistan and we are paying a fortune in benefits to as you quite rightly say to even 3rd and 4th generation immigrants can you remind us all of the benefits of immigration in such numbers?
You are obviously pro immigration come what may; I would prefer an immigration system that encourages the brightest and the best who give added value to the UK. I would argue that yours is the more extreme position. People keep voting in governments who propose a more controlled immigration policy and keep rejecting parties who advocate no controls.
Ironic though don’t you think, those folk who voted for a party that wants stricter immigration rules and so forth have now a petty in charge that openly discussed and implemented, essentially, mass immigration to plug workers force gaps...I mean you couldn’t make it up.
Did those 75 million Romanians ever land here? Asking for a bloke called Nige...
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
Ironic though don’t you think, those folk who voted for a party that wants stricter immigration rules and so forth have now a petty in charge that openly discussed and implemented, essentially, mass immigration to plug workers force gaps...I mean you couldn’t make it up.
Did those 75 million Romanians ever land here? Asking for a bloke called Nige...
He never said they would. He did however make the quite obvious point that due to freedom of movement they could move to the UK if they so wished.
Yes my statement was so unsubstantiated you agree with it!
We are not an Asian country are we? We are predominantly a white Christian country and if large parts of some towns and cities more resemble Pakistan and we are paying a fortune in benefits to as you quite rightly say to even 3rd and 4th generation immigrants can you remind us all of the benefits of immigration in such numbers?
You are obviously pro immigration come what may; I would prefer an immigration system that encourages the brightest and the best who give added value to the UK. I would argue that yours is the more extreme position. People keep voting in governments who propose a more controlled immigration policy and keep rejecting parties who advocate no controls.
But those fourth generation people are not immigrants are they? They may be of a different colour but they are undeniably British. I'm not against controls on immigration but the qualifying conditions have to be reasonable. It may be that the near future predicted mass unemployment may see more of the majority that inhabit this country turn their hands to jobs at the lower skills level but the care sector and the ancillary level of the NHS would be in an even more disastrous shape if it wasn't for immigrants-none of whom earn enough to meet the income qualifying condition that I heard bandied about (I'm prepared to accept this may have changed as I haven't seen very much of the detail laid out in the new laws) Incidentally most qualified nurses don't meet that income level either.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
He never said they would. He did however make the quite obvious point that due to freedom of movement they could move to the UK if they so wished.
Yeah but under freedom of movement the 66 million Brits could move to Romania to get away from them. Scaremongering of the lowest common denominator. Farridge also said that millions of Turks would come here despite his knowing that there was no realistic possibility of Turkey being admitted into the EU.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
Yeah but under freedom of movement the 66 million Brits could move to Romania to get away from them. Scaremongering of the lowest common denominator. Farridge also said that millions of Turks would come here despite his knowing that there was no realistic possibility of Turkey being admitted into the EU.
Tony Blair said a few thousand Eastern European migrants would come here when hundreds of thousands came.
Most politicians talk bollox. If you see one moving his/hers lips you can bet they are lying.
PS Has that lying twit Blair ever apologised about the Iraq war?
Yeah but under freedom of movement the 66 million Brits could move to Romania to get away from them. Scaremongering of the lowest common denominator. Farridge also said that millions of Turks would come here despite his knowing that there was no realistic possibility of Turkey being admitted into the EU.
This type of argument lost the referendum. Trying to distract by saying everything is scaremongering when the facts speak for themselves. People can see with their own eyes that mass uncontrolled immigration from the EU has already taken place. Its a fact. Farrage was simply highlighting the fact that if we remained members any people from any potential new member state would also be allowed to come to the UK if they wished.
As with a lot of things the left lost the argument with the general public, whose common sense told them that if free movement continued unabated we would have serious problems piling up.
I mean what an argument to put forward - Romanians move to the UK, but hey no matter we could move there!
But those fourth generation people are not immigrants are they? They may be of a different colour but they are undeniably British. I'm not against controls on immigration but the qualifying conditions have to be reasonable. It may be that the near future predicted mass unemployment may see more of the majority that inhabit this country turn their hands to jobs at the lower skills level but the care sector and the ancillary level of the NHS would be in an even more disastrous shape if it wasn't for immigrants-none of whom earn enough to meet the income qualifying condition that I heard bandied about (I'm prepared to accept this may have changed as I haven't seen very much of the detail laid out in the new laws) Incidentally most qualified nurses don't meet that income level either.
Of course those fourth generations are British, no one is disputing that. What we are discussing is how too many of that third and fourth generation do not wish to integrate, speak English or contribute to society. If we start having a more robust immigration system now, we will not be faced with the same problems in the future.
The whole point of immigration controls is that we decide who to let in. Not an extreme position to take as nearly every other country in the world takes a similar view, bar the EU countries of course. We may well decide on a salary figure that excludes some of your examples. So what? If we are short of people in the sectors you mention, we may relax the rules for a short period, or use some other lever at the governments discretion to attract more British workers. Control is the name of the game. Not racism. No hidden agendas, just the control of who comes into this country.
This type of argument lost the referendum. Trying to distract by saying everything is scaremongering when the facts speak for themselves. People can see with their own eyes that mass uncontrolled immigration from the EU has already taken place. Its a fact. Farrage was simply highlighting the fact that if we remained members any people from any potential new member state would also be allowed to come to the UK if they wished.
As with a lot of things the left lost the argument with the general public, whose common sense told them that if free movement continued unabated we would have serious problems piling up.
I mean what an argument to put forward - Romanians move to the UK, but hey no matter we could move there!
The comment was designed to show the hyperbole Farridge uses (to great effect) time and again. Of course it is ridiculous to say 66 million British would move to Romania-as ridiculous as saying that the quoted number of immigrants would come here from Romania. Your arguments might be more believable if you didn't try to make it a left/right issue. I know many Tories who voted Remain. I also know many of what you describe as the Far Left who voted out.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
Tony Blair said a few thousand Eastern European migrants would come here when hundreds of thousands came.
Most politicians talk bollox. If you see one moving his/hers lips you can bet they are lying.
PS Has that lying twit Blair ever apologised about the Iraq war?
Please don't mistake me for a supporter of Blair's stance on the Iraq war. I campaigned hard against the Iraq war and as far as I'm concerned he broke International Law and should be forced to defend his actions in a court of law. To answer your question...No
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
"Black Lives Matter" protest to take place this Sunday from the boating lake to Brighton Street slipway.
Looks they've learnt from last time and are stopping it short of the Memorial Gate to avoid the trouble they had last time.
I might be mistaken but I thought I saw in the Telegraph article that it was being organised by "Hope No Hate"-An organisation I thoroughly enjoyed working alongside in the 2015 General Election where they made a massive contribution to ensuring failing Victoria Ayling UKIP got well beaten.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
I might be mistaken but I thought I saw in the Telegraph article that it was being organised by "Hope No Hate"-An organisation I thoroughly enjoyed working alongside in the 2015 General Election where they made a massive contribution to ensuring failing Victoria Ayling UKIP got well beaten.
I think UKIP had the last laugh there. 2016 ring any bells?
Some of the views put forward in this thread just make ones mind boggle...I mean everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it but I mean we’re a moment away from someone claiming the UK doesn’t have a problem because we have Indian and Chinese take always...
I can’t be arsed to read through every page but I’m guessing the phrase ‘woolly liberal’ has been used, I’m guessing patriotism has been used to mask racism and so on...
I mean really, if people can’t see the point in protesting then I guess they’re missing the point entirely. But each to their own...
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
Some of the views put forward in this thread just make ones mind boggle...I mean everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it but I mean we’re a moment away from someone claiming the UK doesn’t have a problem because we have Indian and Chinese take always...
I can’t be arsed to read through every page but I’m guessing the phrase ‘woolly liberal’ has been used, I’m guessing patriotism has been used to mask racism and so on...
I mean really, if people can’t see the point in protesting then I guess they’re missing the point entirely. But each to their own...
That is the trouble with you woolly liberals - whenever you see a viewpoint that doesn't fit in with your world view it makes your minds boggle.
It is a perfectly valid argument to say the UK has a more diverse population than many countries. We do not have a history of racial tensions as in the USA, we have some of the most strict anti discriminatory laws in the world and in the workplace you cannot move for rules apertainig to diversity, racial and otherwise.
I ask again, what is a protest in Cleethorpes to do with a murder in the USA?
The BLM organisation in the UK is just a cover for anarchists to try to get their political ambitions across because they cannot do it through the ballot box.
So you think “democracy” is something that happens on one day every five years?
Having to explain concepts as simple as this makes it easy to see why you can’t grasp something like institutional or structural racism. Do you have someone who helps tie your shoes and wipe your arris in the morning? Its not everyone else’s responsibility to spoon feed you information like a toddler.
Then again, I imagine you’d have more luck with a toddler than someone who thinks the terms liberal, anarchist, Marxist, Labour, leftist, communist, remainer and Corbynist are all interchangeable.
So you think “democracy” is something that happens on one day every five years?
Having to explain concepts as simple as this makes it easy to see why you can’t grasp something like institutional or structural racism. Do you have someone who helps tie your shoes and wipe your arris in the morning? Its not everyone else’s responsibility to spoon feed you information like a toddler.
Then again, I imagine you’d have more luck with a toddler than someone who thinks the terms liberal, anarchist, Marxist, Labour, leftist, communist, remainer and Corbynist are all interchangeable.
I actually feel quite sorry for you.
There are many reasons why the left couldn't win an election but the superior smugness and condrascending manner of people like you is top of the list.
Little victim routine is it again? Bless. You’re the one on here wanting everything explained to you in single-syllable words.
People have spent the last 5 years trying to get people to accept the mildest reforms for the benefit of the country, and people like you just dug your heels in and continued to fluff the billionaires. So naturally, everyone’s patience has run out with having to baby grown adults like yourself.
Still, glad to see your beloved anti-immigration party has just given citizenship to 3 million people from Hong Kong.
There are many reasons why the left couldn't win an election but the superior smugness and condrascending manner of people like you is top of the list.
I think you mean ‘condescending’...
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
Vitriolic abuse? Christ, you’re even more thin-skinned that I thought! No wonder you live your life terrified of the swarthy-hordes, hiding behind Boris’ pinny
Pedantic. Ska fills his posts with vitriolic abuse but you pick me up on a spelling mistake. Pedantic is the perfect word.
I’d argue it’s persnickety rather than pedantic but I guess for some that’s merely a semantic issue...I guess I’m suggesting that if folk are to challenge and question they perhaps use the correct rhetoric in order to strengthen their argument...
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
Vitriolic abuse? Christ, you’re even more thin-skinned that I thought! No wonder you live your life terrified of the swarthy-hordes, hiding behind Boris’ pinny
I think you mean than not that. You have got to be careful or Aldi will be after you.
You are a typical left wing keyboard warrior who tries to shut everybody down who doesn't nod in agreement, with either abuse or sarcasm.
Take it from me, you might not be very important but your fellow lefty SJW's are doing your cause more harm than good.
I’d argue it’s persnickety rather than pedantic but I guess for some that’s merely a semantic issue...I guess I’m suggesting that if folk are to challenge and question they perhaps use the correct rhetoric in order to strengthen their argument...
Argue what you like but I call it pedantic. Yes pedantic fits the bill. Boring illegitimate is better but I don't like to be rude.
I think you mean than not that. You have got to be careful or Aldi will be after you.
You are a typical left wing keyboard warrior who tries to shut everybody down who doesn't nod in agreement, with either abuse or sarcasm.
Take it from me, you might not be very important but your fellow lefty SJW's are doing your cause more harm than good.
I’m not here trying to convert anyone to the cause, I just thought I’d pop on to say you - personally - are talking absolute shiyte. People have wasted far too much time and energy trying to reason with bigoted cranks like yourself and you need to be called out when you’re talking garbage.
People like barralad and others have tried to deal with you in good faith, but it’s clear you’re not interested in anything that contradicts your parochial, little englander mindset. You get told that migrants are net contributors to the economy, and you turn round moaning about 4th generation immigrants on benefits. What the fucck’s a 4th generation immigrant and how many are on benefits?
The world doesn’t owe you anything, let alone another education. If you start getting upset when you get called out for talking shiyte, try not to be so ignorant. Anarchists trying to impose their way of life through...a bunch of kids marching along Cleethorpes prom. What a wet, paranoid, tragic little mentality you have. Pathetic.
I’m not here trying to convert anyone to the cause, I just thought I’d pop on to say you - personally - are talking absolute shiyte. People have wasted far too much time and energy trying to reason with bigoted cranks like yourself and you need to be called out when you’re talking garbage.
People like barralad and others have tried to deal with you in good faith, but it’s clear you’re not interested in anything that contradicts your parochial, little englander mindset. You get told that migrants are net contributors to the economy, and you turn round moaning about 4th generation immigrants on benefits. What the fucck’s a 4th generation immigrant and how many are on benefits?
The world doesn’t owe you anything, let alone another education. If you start getting upset when you get called out for talking shiyte, try not to be so ignorant. Anarchists trying to impose their way of life through...a bunch of kids marching along Cleethorpes prom. What a wet, paranoid, tragic little mentality you have. Pathetic.
What you can't stand is anybody else having a different opinion, and having the temerity to express it.
I have seen previous posts of yours over time being derogatory and insulting to many different posters for not having a left wing view of the world. You don't like it; you cannot get your head round it so resort to boorish behaviour.
I don't give a toss what you think or how educated you think I am. I dont give a toss about you or your mates forever being on the losing side because I am confident that the majority of people do not agree with your views.
I am beginning to lose my temper with tossers like you trying to impose your opinions on forums with your bullying and intimidation of posters who dont agree with you. I am annoyed with myself for that as I generally like to be respectful and I would not want to let rip.
I wish you well in your feeble attempts to achieve a left wing nirvana but in the meantime intercourse off and give my posts a wide berth.
Like I said before, if you don’t like being pulled up on your hideous comments, maybe keep them off a public forum?
You’ve not addressed the point of 4th generation immigrants on benefits, maybe because you know you’re talking shiyte?
Tip-toeing around tragic bigots like you has put this country in the dirt, and it’s my patriotic duty to call out your ignorance when it is having real life impacts on what are generally the poorest and most marginalised in society. Rather than hurting your precious feelings on the internet. I’ll light a candle for you.
Anyway, if you feel like I look down on you, just wait till you hear what the Conservatives think of you!
Like I said before, if you don’t like being pulled up on your hideous comments, maybe keep them off a public forum?
You’ve not addressed the point of 4th generation immigrants on benefits, maybe because you know you’re talking shiyte?
Tip-toeing around tragic bigots like you has put this country in the dirt, and it’s my patriotic duty to call out your ignorance when it is having real life impacts on what are generally the poorest and most marginalised in society. Rather than hurting your precious feelings on the internet. I’ll light a candle for you.
Anyway, if you feel like I look down on you, just wait till you hear what the Conservatives think of you!
Like I said you left wing pos just intercourse off.
Like I said you left wing pos just intercourse off.
Like Ska, my feelings have moved from anger to pity and embarrassment.
Also, quite intrigued by this obsession with the left wing and election results?
Tomorrow shows that civil demonstrations can be made irrespective of the government. Should we just kowtow to the rule of those who actually don't give a flying intercourse for 95% of the population. Unfortunately, they are unable to wade through propaganda and bias to make informed decisions.
"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life.” Bill Shankly
I’m not here trying to convert anyone to the cause, I just thought I’d pop on to say you - personally - are talking absolute shiyte. People have wasted far too much time and energy trying to reason with bigoted cranks like yourself and you need to be called out when you’re talking garbage.
People like barralad and others have tried to deal with you in good faith, but it’s clear you’re not interested in anything that contradicts your parochial, little englander mindset. You get told that migrants are net contributors to the economy, and you turn round moaning about 4th generation immigrants on benefits. What the fucck’s a 4th generation immigrant and how many are on benefits?
The world doesn’t owe you anything, let alone another education. If you start getting upset when you get called out for talking shiyte, try not to be so ignorant. Anarchists trying to impose their way of life through...a bunch of kids marching along Cleethorpes prom. What a wet, paranoid, tragic little mentality you have. Pathetic.
Iam not really into politics and vote green party but to be fair to LewChaterlysLover I think there is quite a bit of good to him.I like how in the past he has stood up for the underdog eg players that have represented us and offered encouragement and likes their work ethic unlike some on here who just mock them.
Yeah a real champion of the downtrodden, calling young people demonstrating for an end to racial prejudice and violence as anarchists trying to impose their way of life on him.
Yeah a real champion of the downtrodden, calling young people demonstrating for an end to racial prejudice and violence as anarchists trying to impose their way of life on him.
Racial prejudice is just one of the subjects that exist in this imperfect world that needs to be dealt with .Ive seen a lot of hypocrisy amongst some.Hence dont like racism yet will put others down on intelligence. Same thing eg putting others down on things they have no control over.
Nobody’s said anything about intelligence - ignorance is a different matter. If he can’t be arsed to find out what people on these demonstrations want, why should anyone else spoon feed him? Or anyone else for that matter.
If you’re ignorant about a subject, you can find out about it. If you’re black, well there’s not much you can do about that is there? Your comparison doesn’t work at all.
Even when someone went to the trouble of posting an article in direct response to a question of his, he didn’t want to know because it didn’t fit with his bigoted views! That’s what people have got no time for.
Nobody’s said anything about intelligence - ignorance is a different matter. If he can’t be arsed to find out what people on these demonstrations want, why should anyone else spoon feed him? Or anyone else for that matter.
If you’re ignorant about a subject, you can find out about it. If you’re black, well there’s not much you can do about that is there? Your comparison doesn’t work at all.
The comparison is perfectly valid though and I think your missing the deeper concept.We all exist in our consciousness and its all part of the same divide.Some people suck the life force out of them via ridicule/mocking/alienation eg on race/intelligence/looks etc which sadly in all cases have led to suicidal attempts and suicide.
Hence enrich others and dont put them down regardless if their black/white intelligent not so intelligent etc.
None of us are perfect in this world but all we can do is try to improve for the better.
If people want to denigrate others on the basis of their ethnicity, their religion or the fact that their great grandparents may not have been born in this country, I have absolutely zero problem with calling that person out. None whatsoever. Especially when they sit on here saying that these people don’t have the right to complain about the treatment they receive.
This country is an absolute swamp thanks to people like that and it will only get worse if they’re allowed to spout their nonsense unchallenged.
Of course those fourth generations are British, no one is disputing that. What we are discussing is how too many of that third and fourth generation do not wish to integrate, speak English or contribute to society. If we start having a more robust immigration system now, we will not be faced with the same problems in the future.
The whole point of immigration controls is that we decide who to let in. Not an extreme position to take as nearly every other country in the world takes a similar view, bar the EU countries of course. We may well decide on a salary figure that excludes some of your examples. So what? If we are short of people in the sectors you mention, we may relax the rules for a short period, or use some other lever at the governments discretion to attract more British workers. Control is the name of the game. Not racism. No hidden agendas, just the control of who comes into this country.
To people like Ska even this reasonable post I put earlier in this argument proves I am an intolerable racist bigot and all the other insults he can find to throw my way.
This was in response to the lockdown in Leicester where it was stated that some 3rd and 4th generation immigrants could not speak English and were unaware of the rules about lockdown because of it.
Now some posters will disagree and no one would have a problem with that, but Ska and his mates will not accept that anybody else has an equally valid, but very different view.
What’s a 4th generation immigrant? How do you know what their contribution to society is?
How do you know they make a contribution?
One of the problems in Leicester as in the West Riding when I worked there in the 60s and 70s is that the councils from that time adopted a multicultural approach so strongly that they were translating every single council document into 3 or 4 languages and paying for festivals instead of spending the money on encouraging equalisation and integration. The result was twofold. The older generations never needed to speak or read a word of English and the younger generations were indoctrinated with the separate culture ethic with issues of sexism and radicalism.
You then add on to that the tradition of the community elders and the idea of things like shariah law, postal voting etc. and people like Vaz, and it is easy to see that the community is distrustful of whites and vice versa. But the irony is that most of the time when they are being taken advantage of, it is not by the white community but by other members of their community as with minimum wage issues.
It is much too simplistic to just pick a side. The country as a whole must have a policy and we cannot say we cannot do something just because we have never done it before. Surely if this virus lark has taught us anything it is that we must be prepared to make changes.
“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.” ― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty."
To people like Ska even this reasonable post I put earlier in this argument proves I am an intolerable racist bigot and all the other insults he can find to throw my way.
This was in response to the lockdown in Leicester where it was stated that some 3rd and 4th generation immigrants could not speak English and were unaware of the rules about lockdown because of it.
Now some posters will disagree and no one would have a problem with that, but Ska and his mates will not accept that anybody else has an equally valid, but very different view.
3rd and 4th generations not speaking English is a complete myth, you would struggle to find many first generation immigrants who cannot at the least get by, this is the sort of nonsense put out by the right wing and Mail, I cannot believe you seriously believe this Closer to the truth is many immigrants see the chance for education and are much stricter in making sure that their kids make the most of it and make a better life.
Please point out we’re the research that shows this comes from, and please don’t point to an article in The Mail
3rd and 4th generations not speaking English is a complete myth, you would struggle to find many first generation immigrants who cannot at the least get by, this is the sort of nonsense put out by the right wing and Mail, I cannot believe you seriously believe this Closer to the truth is many immigrants see the chance for education and are much stricter in making sure that their kids make the most of it and make a better life.
Please point out we’re the research that shows this comes from, and please don’t point to an article in The Mail
3rd and 4th generations not speaking English is a complete myth, you would struggle to find many first generation immigrants who cannot at the least get by, this is the sort of nonsense put out by the right wing and Mail, I cannot believe you seriously believe this Closer to the truth is many immigrants see the chance for education and are much stricter in making sure that their kids make the most of it and make a better life.
Please point out we’re the research that shows this comes from, and please don’t point to an article in The Mail
Of course you could look at Census returns but I won’t bore you with it.
Like I said in a previous post, this simple generalising does not work. Remember the problems in Boston for example? The incomers there were largely east European but they put a tremendous strain on schools, social and medical services because of their sheer numbers and lack of English.
The issues in Leicester (Burnley, Doncaster ..... ) are also more complex. The immigration of older family is one of the reasons for a high percentage of non-English speakers. The immigrant communities are not homogeneous either. There is antipathy (posh word for racism really) between groups that come from different countries/areas in the sub-continent. This has always been the case but we rarely hear of it because of the closed nature of immigrant communities.
It is wrong to call this issue as a one-stop problem with a one-stop solution. It is also wrong to casually call racist anyone who dares to raise the issue.
“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.” ― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty."
The issues in Leicester (Burnley, Doncaster ..... ) are also more complex. The immigration of older family is one of the reasons for a high percentage of non-English speakers. The immigrant communities are not homogeneous either. There is antipathy (posh word for racism really) between groups that come from different countries/areas in the sub-continent. This has always been the case but we rarely hear of it because of the closed nature of immigrant communities.
Valid point eg I know there has been tension amongst African and Jamaicans for one.Having lived in London for over 20 years there are issues with some people eg some Muslims not mingling that much due to the differences in ideology.On the other hand though Ive met some very nice Muslims.Hence good and bad in every race.
Of course you could look at Census returns but I won’t bore you with it.
Like I said in a previous post, this simple generalising does not work. Remember the problems in Boston for example? The incomers there were largely east European but they put a tremendous strain on schools, social and medical services because of their sheer numbers and lack of English.
The issues in Leicester (Burnley, Doncaster ..... ) are also more complex. The immigration of older family is one of the reasons for a high percentage of non-English speakers. The immigrant communities are not homogeneous either. There is antipathy (posh word for racism really) between groups that come from different countries/areas in the sub-continent. This has always been the case but we rarely hear of it because of the closed nature of immigrant communities.
It is wrong to call this issue as a one-stop problem with a one-stop solution. It is also wrong to casually call racist anyone who dares to raise the issue.
I would say that to say third and forth generation cannot communicate in English with no other evidence than a BNP website is a pretty racist attitude, anyone wanting to read a BNP website for information to put on a message board should consider the validity of their source, this attempt to stereotype whole communities is racist whether intended or not. I am not against the control of immigration , the fact employers will exploit it as a source of cheap Labour is not new. It suits farmers to pay gangmasters in places like Boston rather than proper wages and national insurance contributions.
Of course you could look at Census returns but I won’t bore you with it.
Don’t worry, I’ve done it for you.
From the entire U.K. population, the 2011 census found 138,000 people who didn’t speak English or Welsh at all Looking into those a bit deeper, 118,000 of those people were born outside of the U.K. So now you’re looking at 20,000 people, and this included, for example, people whose main language was a sign language.
So, from a population of around 68million, you’ve got at most 20,000 people born here don’t speak English, and a substantial number of those do it in sign language.
So not quite the problem of 4th generation immigrants not speaking English and claiming benefits that we were led to believe.
From the entire U.K. population, the 2011 census found 138,000 people who didn’t speak English or Welsh at all Looking into those a bit deeper, 118,000 of those people were born outside of the U.K. So now you’re looking at 20,000 people, and this included, for example, people whose main language was a sign language.
So, from a population of around 68million, you’ve got at most 20,000 people born here don’t speak English, and a substantial number of those do it in sign language.
So not quite the problem of 4th generation immigrants not speaking English and claiming benefits that we were led to believe.
I knew we could rely on you to state the bleeding obvious.
“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.” ― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty."
I would say that to say third and forth generation cannot communicate in English with no other evidence than a BNP website is a pretty racist attitude, anyone wanting to read a BNP website for information to put on a message board should consider the validity of their source, this attempt to stereotype whole communities is racist whether intended or not. I am not against the control of immigration , the fact employers will exploit it as a source of cheap Labour is not new. It suits farmers to pay gangmasters in places like Boston rather than proper wages and national insurance contributions.
Of course you could look at Census returns but I won’t bore you with it.
Like I said in a previous post, this simple generalising does not work. Remember the problems in Boston for example? The incomers there were largely east European but they put a tremendous strain on schools, social and medical services because of their sheer numbers and lack of English.
The issues in Leicester (Burnley, Doncaster ..... ) are also more complex. The immigration of older family is one of the reasons for a high percentage of non-English speakers. The immigrant communities are not homogeneous either. There is antipathy (posh word for racism really) between groups that come from different countries/areas in the sub-continent. This has always been the case but we rarely hear of it because of the closed nature of immigrant communities.
It is wrong to call this issue as a one-stop problem with a one-stop solution. It is also wrong to casually call racist anyone who dares to raise the issue.
It may be worth a look at the performance of different ethnic groups in school. It would suggest that those with 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation migrant background perform better in secondary school than their white British peers. This would suggest that the level of English is very high if not universal amongst 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation migrants. Students from a Black Caribbean and traveller communities are the worst performers although both ethnicities 1st language is generally English.
I would suggest that idea that 4th generation migrant descendants not speaking English is fake news.
I knew we could rely on you to state the bleeding obvious.
If you want to talk about staying the obvious, I’d start with the fact that migrants being net contributors to the economy is not the reason that services and infrastructure is stretched, but its a direct outgrowth of cuts and a lack of investment infrastructure which is entirely ideological.
I am certainly not a racist. I have never been a racist and will never be a racist.
My comments were that the UK should have a more restrictive immigration policy, points-based.
This is current government policy and it is one of the many reasons I voted Conservative like millions of others and why the Conservatives romped home with an 80 seat majority, so I am certainly not in a minority.
The reason I want to have some controls over immigration (and the government to actually use those powers) is nothing to do with racism whatsoever, it is because of the strain unlimited immigration is putting on local communities, in terms of housing, infrastructure, schooling, social services and the NHS. That is my view. Too many people over too short a time frame will obviously put communities under stress. That is my view. I also think that multiculturalism, as it was envisaged, has not worked because too many areas have remained too white, and too many areas have remained too ethnic. That is also my view.
The third and fourth generation immigrants discussion about Leicester was all over the media last week - I thought even some community leaders were worried that the governments message was not getting through due to language difficulties. In any event I do not spend hours checking every fact that appears on my newsfeed - I don't think many people do, but if you are one of them that does then congratulations.
What has got me very upity on here is the notion that if you are a fraction to the right of Richard Burgon you are literally Hitler. This simply has to stop. Free speech is everything, and shouting down people who lead exemplary lives but have a different view of politics is not on.
I lost my temper with one or two posters who tried to portray me as a cross between Ghengis Khan and Satan, and I am sorry about that but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Some arrogant posters will say they will "call me out" on it, just for daring to speak any opinion other than the one they approve of. I will continue to speak on any subject I want, how I want, when I want.
For now however, this is my last post on this particular thread.
PS the BNP reference was obviously a joke, but if I read something in a right of centre paper, which probably confirms my world view, how is that any different to reading a left of centre paper which guess what - confirms your world view?!
Embarrassing. This is the right when you dare tell them they are wrong and even give them empirical evidence to prove it. The inferiority and victim complex which shapes their world is clear for all to see in this thread. I’m just ashamed that it has been allowed to shape this country into such a cesspit.
If you want to talk about staying the obvious, I’d start with the fact that migrants being net contributors to the economy is not the reason that services and infrastructure is stretched, but its a direct outgrowth of cuts and a lack of investment infrastructure which is entirely ideological.
Still, you carry on talking your garbage.
Your problem is that you never read anything That people put before you type a diatribe. I have already said that this one-size-fits-all notion of immigration is bunkum. So is the one-size-fits-all labelling of anyone who wants to raise an issue over immigration as racist.
The Boston example is a good case study. The rapid influx of immigrants caused immediate problems as I said. There was a shortage of trained teachers who could speak the various languages, there were issues with the translation of documents etc. There were funding troubles and outside of the harvest season there was a benefits overload. Over the country if you take immigration as a whole I.e. including all the qualified doctors and so on, then you can justifiably say there is a net benefit. But clearly life is not as simple as you would like it to be because you will always get areas where the situation is reversed. I suspect you could go through the London boroughs for instance and find some with huge net Immigration benefit and others with deficit. That is why I take issue with those simplistic one dimensional views.
The same applies to the white objectors in local areas. Are all BNP voters de facto fascists? That is as much nonsense as saying all BLM marchers are communist. You have to look at who they are and what they are saying and why. You cannot just denigrate people because you disagree with them. The Bradford headmaster Ray Honeyford pointed out in the 70s that multiculturalism and a failure to integrate immigrant children in schools would lead to ghettoising and problems.
So now we have Muslim schools masquerading as Cof E. we have a substantial percentage of the population in some areas who take more note of sharia law than English law. We have a substantial sexist issue, we have FGM as a common practice hidden away. We have child abuse as a routine event covered up for fear of being called out as racist. Then there is the elephant of terrorism. You cannot just ignore these things, pretend they don’t exist and hide behind some nice global stats and a few insults. They do exist, how do we deal with them? Answers on a postcard.
“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.” ― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty."
The Boston example is a good case study. The rapid influx of immigrants caused immediate problems as I said. There was a shortage of trained teachers who could speak the various languages, there wereues with the translation of documents etc. There were funding troubles and outside of the harvest
So now we have Muslim schools masquerading as Cof E. we have a substantial percentage of the population in some areas who take more note of sharia law than English law. We have a substantial sexist issue, we have FGM as a common practice hidden away. We have child abuse as a routine event covered up for fear of being called out as racist. Then there is the elephant of terrorism. You cannot just ignore these things, pretend they don’t exist and hide behind some nice global stats and a few insults. They do exist, how do we deal with them? Answers on a postcard.
I think like anything you do need a level of control and there has in some areas been to many people coming into a area and stretching local resources. The same analogy can be seen in nature eg to many animals coming to the watering hole and not enough resources for all which creates problems.
Give it time though and the world will probably be more homogenous. You only have to look at Brazil for one where years of mixing the races creates a mulato race.
Theres some good people on this forum on both sides of the political divide eg yourself and codcheeky to name but a few. That's ultimately what's important though eg good character in this life as in the end that trumps all.
Valid point eg I know there has been tension amongst African and Jamaicans for one.Having lived in London for over 20 years there are issues with some people eg some Muslims not mingling that much due to the differences in ideology.On the other hand though Ive met some very nice Muslims.Hence good and bad in every race.
This post has got 2 crosses n 0 ticks so far. Unbelievable. The poster has made valid points and I have also noticed racism between different races. It doesn’t just come from whites against blacks/Asians etc. It is sad that racism exists between so many different races.
Your problem is that you never read anything That people put before you type a diatribe. I have already said that this one-size-fits-all notion of immigration is bunkum. So is the one-size-fits-all labelling of anyone who wants to raise an issue over immigration as racist.
The Boston example is a good case study. The rapid influx of immigrants caused immediate problems as I said. There was a shortage of trained teachers who could speak the various languages, there were issues with the translation of documents etc. There were funding troubles and outside of the harvest season there was a benefits overload. Over the country if you take immigration as a whole I.e. including all the qualified doctors and so on, then you can justifiably say there is a net benefit. But clearly life is not as simple as you would like it to be because you will always get areas where the situation is reversed. I suspect you could go through the London boroughs for instance and find some with huge net Immigration benefit and others with deficit. That is why I take issue with those simplistic one dimensional views.
The same applies to the white objectors in local areas. Are all BNP voters de facto fascists? That is as much nonsense as saying all BLM marchers are communist. You have to look at who they are and what they are saying and why. You cannot just denigrate people because you disagree with them. The Bradford headmaster Ray Honeyford pointed out in the 70s that multiculturalism and a failure to integrate immigrant children in schools would lead to ghettoising and problems.
So now we have Muslim schools masquerading as Cof E. we have a substantial percentage of the population in some areas who take more note of sharia law than English law. We have a substantial sexist issue, we have FGM as a common practice hidden away. We have child abuse as a routine event covered up for fear of being called out as racist. Then there is the elephant of terrorism. You cannot just ignore these things, pretend they don’t exist and hide behind some nice global stats and a few insults. They do exist, how do we deal with them? Answers on a postcard.
To the underlined, yes absolutely, they are a far right fascist group.
This post has got 2 crosses n 0 ticks so far. Unbelievable. The poster has made valid points and I have also noticed racism between different races. It doesn’t just come from whites against blacks/Asians etc. It is sad that racism exists between so many different races.
Its ok Paul truth often hurts and some people dont like brute honesty. The most likes/dislikes doesnt mean one iota on a small club forum in the grand scheme of things. As I've noted before for me environmental issues are the most pressing concerns going forward.
To the underlined, yes absolutely, they are a far right fascist group.
That is rubbish. I said voters not members. Very big difference, The voters in Burnley for example are not fascist, they voted BNP because it seemed like the only party at the time that expressed some of their thoughts. It is much more like a protest vote against the established parties than any endorsement of the policies.
“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.” ― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty."
I think like anything you do need a level of control and there has in some areas been to many people coming into a area and stretching local resources. The same analogy can be seen in nature eg to many animals coming to the watering hole and not enough resources for all which creates problems.
Give it time though and the world will probably be more homogenous. You only have to look at Brazil for one where years of mixing the races creates a mulato race.
Theres some good people on this forum on both sides of the political divide eg yourself and codcheeky to name but a few. That's ultimately what's important though eg good character in this life as in the end that trumps all.
I go along with you to a good extent. Older posters may remember the Blue Mink record in the 60s called Melting Pot. But what stymies the argument every time is that time does not stand still in any respect. So while Brazil may well be a fair example now, other places like Chechnya are still hurtling towards ethnic cleansing and every new bit of nationalism that crops up in the world brings a new issue. Then, what about Russia, what about Hong Kong? That’s what I keep saying to some of those other posters Rick, we will never solve anything with a silly “Me angel, you fascist”.diatribe.
“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.” ― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty."
That is rubbish. I said voters not members. Very big difference, The voters in Burnley for example are not fascist, they voted BNP because it seemed like the only party at the time that expressed some of their thoughts. It is much more like a protest vote against the established parties than any endorsement of the policies.
If you’re not a fascist, racist or both, the only explanation for voting BNP is ignorance or idiocy. An actual extremist political group.
I go along with you to a good extent. Older posters may remember the Blue Mink record in the 60s called Melting Pot. But what stymies the argument every time is that time does not stand still in any respect. So while Brazil may well be a fair example now, other places like Chechnya are still hurtling towards ethnic cleansing and every new bit of nationalism that crops up in the world brings a new issue. Then, what about Russia, what about Hong Kong? That’s what I keep saying to some of those other posters Rick, we will never solve anything with a silly “Me angel, you fascist”.diatribe.
We will never live in perfect world Ron as you know.At least things have improved considerably to years gone by.Not just in racism but in attitudes to gender equality etc.
If you’re not a fascist, racist or both, the only explanation for voting BNP is ignorance or idiocy. An actual extremist political group.
Rather like the naive supporting BLM then?
“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.” ― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty."
"The only necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men (and women) to do nothing."
"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life.” Bill Shankly
Very true Smokey and not just for racism but all across the board as well.
Exactly. Never turn a blind eye. Bullying, abuse, racism, discrimination. The list goes on. Eventually we all need to look in the mirror and be comfortable that we took a stand and stuck to our beliefs.
"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life.” Bill Shankly
Exactly. Never turn a blind eye. Bullying, abuse, racism, discrimination. The list goes on. Eventually we all need to look in the mirror and be comfortable that we took a stand and stuck to our beliefs.
100%
I think though very few people are out and out racists but granted theres more racism in some more than others. Hence noone is pure in this life.
If you get the chance if you havent already check out this film which highlights all the above you have pointed out and more .The most moving film Ive seen at the cinema.Likewise Denzel Washington is a christian and preaches through his films. Top man.
I think though very few people are out and out racists but granted theres more racism in some more than others. Hence noone is pure in this life.
If you get the chance if you havent already check out this film which highlights all the above you have pointed out and more .The most moving film Ive seen at the cinema.Likewise Denzel Washington is a christian and preaches through his films. Top man.
That is one massive coincidence. Watched the first one, just sat watching Equalizer 2.
"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life.” Bill Shankly
What's the world coming to when a twelve year old boy thinks it's acceptable to racially abuse Wilfred Zaha online.
Apparently the kid has now been arrested.
Have his parents been arrested as well? They should be.
“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.” ― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty."
Have his parents been arrested as well? They should be.
They won’t be as he’s above the criminal age of responsibility. Whilst I agree with your comment and can see that logic, it won’t happen. I spent ten years working in youth justice establishments, parents rarely received any support, let alone bollockings. No doubt this lad got his racist views from bigoted parents but sadly I’d imagine nothing will be done.
He’ll likely receive a fine and some work around the impact of racism etc.
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
They won’t be as he’s above the criminal age of responsibility. Whilst I agree with your comment and can see that logic, it won’t happen. I spent ten years working in youth justice establishments, parents rarely received any support, let alone bollockings. No doubt this lad got his racist views from bigoted parents but sadly I’d imagine nothing will be done.
He’ll likely receive a fine and some work around the impact of racism etc.
I can understand your viewpoint. I've worked as well with severely troubled youth and on a wider note it's heartwrenching what some have been through. What Ive found though is healthy input eg kindness and structure and discipline goes a long way to healing them but it takes time.
Please don't mistake me for a supporter of Blair's stance on the Iraq war. I campaigned hard against the Iraq war and as far as I'm concerned he broke International Law and should be forced to defend his actions in a court of law. To answer your question...No
My point was that it was Tony Blair (Labour Party P.M.) that lied about the number of EU migrants coming into the UK yet you don't seem to acknowledge that but keep referring to Nigel Farage and his comments about EU migrants.
I can understand your viewpoint. I've worked as well with severely troubled youth and on a wider note it's heartwrenching what some have been through. What Ive found though is healthy input eg kindness and structure and discipline goes a long way to healing them but it takes time.
One hundred percent agree, the wider issue we had was we’d smother them with kindness, education, the opportunities to to learn from mistakes and then bang! Off they go back to the same environment with little support. It was so frustrating and with social care and youth justice support varying so much across the country, coupled with increasing rates of deprivation and it’s a recipe for disaster. Sadly, that won’t change, not with Boris and chums in charge.
The whole British values thing is schools was completely misinterpreted and or implemented when there were more significant things to focus on rather than some nonsense pseudo patriotism. Education is the key to stopping this vile excrement but not just telling them it is bad but actually explaining to them how social media works, how to fact check, how to use critical thinking and the like but then, perhaps the government don’t want folk to do that🤔
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
"His is a post from a serving Police Officer. I think he sums things up perfectly: A career criminal dies whilst being arrested for another crime because a police officer doesn’t know proper arrest procedure.... the world riots! Everyone changes their social media pictures. Everyone wears badges in support. Politicians, actors, footballers and celebrities all scream for justice. Amazon start selling Blue Lives Murder T shirts. It gets so extreme the army is called in to quell the unrest. The cop is charged with murder almost instantly. A police officer is murdered on duty trying to prevent a burglary by career criminals who laugh and joke throughout the crime and the trial. Nothing happens. Silence. The world carries on regardless. Even his own country doesn’t care! Where is your outrage now? Where are the badges? The public show of support? Where are the celebrity voices? A police officer was flayed alive (skinned alive till he died while his body was being dragged along by a car)doing his job, protecting YOU, YOUR FAMILY, YOUR PROPERTY. Are you going to riot for his life? Are you going to protest his right to life? No you’re not, likely you’ll do nothing at all. In 8 years, yes 8 years, his murderers will be back out and committing crime. Their victims will start bitching about the police not doing their jobs: "where were you, why weren’t you here sooner, you Police are useless" you’ll shout. Do you know what the Police will say? No you’re wrong, they’ll apologise for not being quicker and not being there but what I want to know is... WHERE WERE YOU WHEN WE NEEDED YOUR SUPPORT, WHERE'S YOUR OUTRAGE NOW? Get this shared folks, far and wide because I want to know how a country can call justice served when a police officer's murderers are jailed for 16 years, out in 8 just thing about that for a moment, 8 years for killing a Police Officer."
If you are able to ignore what I see as a lot of nonsense in this piece of writing I think there is a legitimate discussion to be had here, I just find it a shame it’s hidden and obscured by divisive comparisons to other cases which I view as comparing apples and oranges.
That said highlighting the inadequacies of our ‘justice’ system with this particular case is perfectly valid. Perhaps, despite the loose connections that can be made to this thread if you’re inclined to do so, the legitimate argument deserves its own. Personally I think What those lads did and how they have conducted themselves since is absolutely deplorable and the sentence they received is not nearly enough.
“I know writers who use subtext and they’re all cowards.” –Garth Marenghi
If you are able to ignore what I see as a lot of nonsense in this piece of writing I think there is a legitimate discussion to be had here, I just find it a shame it’s hidden and obscured by divisive comparisons to other cases which I view as comparing apples and oranges.
That said highlighting the inadequacies of our ‘justice’ system with this particular case is perfectly valid. What those lads did and how they have conducted themselves since is absolutely deplorable and the sentence they received in my opinion not nearly enough.
Soon as we come into this world Sandford its a challenge for all of us albeit for some more than others.Ive always said and I stand by this in the end good always wins.
What a monumental heap of shite from Rick, again. If the person who wrote that is actually a serving police officer they should be removed from duty ASAP.
What a monumental heap of shite from Rick, again. If the person who wrote that is actually a serving police officer they should be removed from duty ASAP.
Heap of shite ?I think your just showing yourself up again Ska face and are again reflecting your character.You need some life lessons in how to to treat others .Hence I dont know how old you are but in real life some people wouldnt stand for your claptrap and do something about it.
Someone actually told me about the link that I shared .
Have you actually been in the police or the army.Hence if you was being accosted by a group of criminals or getting threatened by the Taliban would you run away or confront the enemy.Words are empty but actions arent.
What a monumental heap of shite from Rick, again. If the person who wrote that is actually a serving police officer they should be removed from duty ASAP.
Ska Face Rick is one of the good guys you are not .
You always revert to name calling when you do not agree with a post.
Time to grow up and look at other people's point of view ,you don't have to agree with them but you can reply with a bit of civility .
Go on you can if you try.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
Heap of shite ?I think your just showing yourself up again Ska face and are again reflecting your character.You need some life lessons in how to to treat others .Hence I dont know how old you are but in real life some people wouldnt stand for your claptrap and do something about it.
Someone actually told me about the link that I shared .
Have you actually been in the police or the army.Hence if you was being accosted by a group of criminals or getting threatened by the Taliban would you run away or confront the enemy.Words are empty but actions arent.
Tweet 1271280038604877824 will appear here...
It’s a steaming pile of garbage, full of non sequiturs, incorrect statements and false equivalences, with the general thrust being it is OK to stand on a man’s neck in broad daylight until he is dead, and people can’t be unhappy about it because police are also sometimes killed.
It’s a steaming pile of garbage, full of non sequiturs, incorrect statements and false equivalences, with the general thrust being it is OK to stand on a man’s neck in broad daylight until he is dead, and people can’t be unhappy about it because police are also sometimes killed.
Why should I, or anyone, respect that?
What that policeman done was out of order to George Floyd and he rightly got convicted .Apparently though in footage released on body cam police that dealt with George Floyd were originally respectful but things got out of hand.
Its a tough job to be in though.I certainly wouldn't want to be in the police in the USA or here in the UK for that matter .Dealing with all the abuse and danger they put themselves under.Would you?Hence video below shows police restraint in the USA which almost cost them their lives.I know in this country for one police chiefs want to make it mandatory for all officers to carry tasers as research shows it makes them less likely to be attacked.
Similary the army is another dangerous job. Hence during the troubles in Ireland the IRA use to use snipers to kill soldiers on patrol.
What are you talking about? IRA snipers? This is exactly what I’m talking about. You can’t address the issue without going off on an unrelated tangent.
You’re right, it is difficult to be a public servant in one of the uniformed services, one of the difficulties is not killing people routinely. If anyone commits a crime, they are to be arrested and punished according to the law if found guilty. The police aren’t there to commit extra-judicial executions whenever they see fit.
What are you talking about? IRA snipers? This is exactly what I’m talking about. You can’t address the issue without going off on an unrelated tangent.
You’re right, it is difficult to be a public servant in one of the uniformed services, one of the difficulties is not killing people routinely. If anyone commits a crime, they are to be arrested and punished according to the law if found guilty. The police aren’t there to commit extra-judicial executions whenever they see fit.
Iam addressing the issue but highlighting the real dangers our public servants have had to go through and are still going through .This isnt fairy land but real life.Of course your going to get bad applies which need weeding out and dealt with but I think the majority of our armed services and police do a good job and need support.Hence its nice for one that the government are reviewing the case of PC Harpers killers and thinking of imposing tougher sentences for the people that killed him.Likewise nice to see the government imposed tougher sentences for those attacking all our emergency workers in 2018.
Perfect example - that garbage post is conflating the murder of George Floyd with the murder of PC Harper. The two situations are completely different, in no way analogous, but that post tries to draw comparisons between the two situations and insinuate that anyone supporting the former doesn’t care about the latter. And you claimed it summed up the situation perfectly?
The problem is that police in America are given so much support that they appear to be able to kill and maim with almost absolute impunity. The post stated that the officer was arrested immediately - WRONG. The police that murdered Breona Taylor still haven’t been arrested. What about the actions of the police during the recent protests? You can support the uniformed services without giving them a free ride whenever they step out of line.
Heap of shite ?I think your just showing yourself up again Ska face and are again reflecting your character.You need some life lessons in how to to treat others .Hence I dont know how old you are but in real life some people wouldnt stand for your claptrap and do something about it.
Someone actually told me about the link that I shared .
Have you actually been in the police or the army.Hence if you was being accosted by a group of criminals or getting threatened by the Taliban would you run away or confront the enemy.Words are empty but actions arent.
Tweet 1271280038604877824 will appear here...
There’s a lot of whataboutery going on. I’m not sure the big takeaway from the protests is that we need to feel sorry for and support police officers more. The police in America are hugely supported, have a mega strong union and generally the support of the public and politicians. They do keep killing unarmed black people at a disproportionate rate to White people. It’s a huge problem and one that people are rightly angry about. Whether it is borne from America’s inequality or racism within the police force, it’s not right.
Thankfully the police don’t have guns over here and police accountability is better. We still have huge inequalities in the way people are dealt with by the police. It would certainly help if there was more equality in terms of opportunity in Britain.
You’re right, it is difficult to be a public servant in one of the uniformed services, one of the difficulties is not killing people routinely. If anyone commits a crime, they are to be arrested and punished according to the law if found guilty. The police aren’t there to commit extra-judicial executions whenever they see fit.
See you can do it when you try.
On this subject I agree with you. What we have seen coming out of America in the last few weeks is terrible.Shooting a man in the back seven times deserves the death sentence imo.
Another case a man who had a knife had to be stopped from going into a shop but they did not have to kill him a bullet or two in his legs would have done the job.
The police are there to uphold the law not administer justice that is the courts responsibility .
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
There’s a lot of whataboutery going on. I’m not sure the big takeaway from the protests is that we need to feel sorry for and support police officers more. The police in America are hugely supported, have a mega strong union and generally the support of the public and politicians. They do keep killing unarmed black people at a disproportionate rate to White people. It’s a huge problem and one that people are rightly angry about. Whether it is borne from America’s inequality or racism within the police force, it’s not right.
Probably a combination of the two though I would assume more the former.I still feel the majority of police officers in the USA do a decent job.
Perfect example - that garbage post is conflating the murder of George Floyd with the murder of PC Harper. The two situations are completely different, in no way analogous, but that post tries to draw comparisons between the two situations and insinuate that anyone supporting the former doesn’t care about the latter. And you claimed it summed up the situation perfectly?
The problem is that police in America are given so much support that they appear to be able to kill and maim with almost absolute impunity. The post stated that the officer was arrested immediately - WRONG. The police that murdered Breona Taylor still haven’t been arrested. What about the actions of the police during the recent protests? You can support the uniformed services without giving them a free ride whenever they step out of line.
What garbage post are you on about? I think you need to see the light a bit more and clear your head again as you seem a bit confused .Police done wrong against George Floyd and got rightly tried.People killed a UK policeman and got let of initially lightly .All this is about is trying to get justice.Yes your right in the later part of your post justice still needs to be served for certain cases involving police in the USA.
What garbage post are you on about? I think you need to see the light a bit more and clear your head again as you seem a bit confused.
I think Ska is referring to the original post you read and then added to this thread this morning, but if that’s the case I don’t think he’s confused-he’s called it 100% correctly. It was what I was getting at In my reply only less eloquently.
I think the point around justice for pc Harper is a good one as I said, but the way you’ve used that post as supporting context is really strange and muddled for me.
“I know writers who use subtext and they’re all cowards.” –Garth Marenghi
Very noble of you. Justice for the “career criminal”, as you described him about 2 pages back.
I didnt say the career criminal the post did but George Floyd did have previous criminal convictions. This is facts . Noone deserved to die like that under police custody and I have some respect for Floyd as in later years tried to turn his life around with the help of the church.
I think Ska is referring to the original post you read and then added to this thread this morning, but if that’s the case I don’t think he’s confused-he’s called it 100% correctly. It was what I was getting at In my reply only less eloquently.
I think the point around justice for pc Harper is a good one as I said, but the way you’ve used that post as supporting context is really strange and muddled for me.
No Sandford he is a bit confused . Theres people who I know who have been in the services eg army and police and so I have a degree of respect for what they have gone through and hence stand up for them.Likewise I have known people on the other side of the line through my previous job with youth offending and can see their side of the fence as well.
With enough love and support and with the right people in place in government and the police things will change for the better.Similar goes for the army who try to change things for the better when they serve our people and others.
No Sandford he is a bit confused . Theres people who I know who have been in the services eg army and police and so I have a degree of respect for what they have gone through and hence stand up for them.Likewise I have known people on the other side of the line through my previous job with youth offending and can see their side of the fence as well.
I have worked with troubled youngsters and their families as has my partner who has also been in the police.I also have friends and familiy who have served in the armed forces and a friend currently in the police. I am fully aware of the difficult nature of those jobs as well as being acutely aware first hand of the Issues that contribute to young men becoming embroiled in criminality. So I too feel I’m pretty well placed to understand both sides of the fence as you put it. However, I feel you are missing the point or choosing not to see it. The problem comes from the original post being largely nonsensical and a really clumsy way of highlighting a valid issue regarding the killing of an emergency worker in the line of duty. It seems you equate anyone wanting accountability for those breaking the law in service as being unappreciative or lacking in respect which I don’t think is the case. That a job is difficult is not a excuse for an unlawful killing of a civilian and having a traumatic upbringing won’t cut it as an excuse for the murder of a police officer.
“I know writers who use subtext and they’re all cowards.” –Garth Marenghi
Shame, if they had the officer killed by the gyppo twits might have had a chance if he'd taken a couple of them out first
Perhaps there might have been a greater public outrage if the murdered officer had been black?
Find me someone who doesn’t think it’s an outrage that poor officer was killed. It’s been front page news for ages and there is a national campaign to have mandatory life sentences for anyone who kills a police officer.
However, I feel you are missing the point or choosing not to see it. The problem comes from the original post being largely nonsensical and a really clumsy way of highlighting a valid issue regarding the killing of an emergency worker in the line of duty. It seems you equate anyone wanting accountability for those breaking the law in service as being unappreciative or lacking in respect which I don’t think is the case. That a job is difficult is not a excuse for an unlawful killing of a civilian and having a traumatic upbringing won’t cut it as an excuse for the murder of a police officer.
Not at all.I know for one there are issues in the police that need addressing in the USA and even here in the UK.But I feel things have improved .Admittedly more work can be done .Its like the army as well were there were acute problems with racism but the military have tried to weed out . But in the case of Pc Harper there was a clear lack of initial justice for his killers which his wife appealed against as you maybe aware and things are now moving in the right direction .I think the initial post which that police person put up was genuine and it was his exasperation of how wrong things were even if it could have been like you say better put.
Regardless of what you and the psychopath who wrote that post think of them, the sentences given to the PC’s killers were based on sentencing guidelines and handed down by a judge.
George Floyd was murdered for the crime, not yet proven, of using a counterfeit $20 note.
In the case of PC Harper justice was served, in consideration to the laws set out in this country. Simply because they didn’t get a lengthier sentence in his partners eyes does not equate to no justice.
Naturally now I suspect she will campaign for tougher sentences for crimes against police officers, like they’re more or less important than anyone else.
If people like that want to be the advent of change then perhaps they look at the wider spectrum and try and park their own emotions and opinions to one side? If that is too difficult or painful to do at this stage then perhaps it’s worth taking a step back because passion and anger will cloud any possibility of change.
As a football fan we are often persecuted for nothing more than following a certain team...now multiply that by a gajillion and then you understand the persecution and resentment felt by BAME, young people, those from marginalised areas of society and so forth.
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
In the case of PC Harper justice was served, in consideration to the laws set out in this country. Simply because they didn’t get a lengthier sentence in his partners eyes does not equate to no justice.
Naturally now I suspect she will campaign for tougher sentences for crimes against police officers, like they’re more or less important than anyone else.
If people like that want to be the advent of change then perhaps they look at the wider spectrum and try and park their own emotions and opinions to one side? If that is too difficult or painful to do at this stage then perhaps it’s worth taking a step back because passion and anger will cloud any possibility of change.
As a football fan we are often persecuted for nothing more than following a certain team...now multiply that by a gajillion and then you understand the persecution and resentment felt by BAME, young people, those from marginalised areas of society and so forth.
Yes some good points .Ive been stopped a fair few times in my youth in London and abroad .(Probably because at the time I had a crew cut and was angry about stuff going on in my personal life which police misconstrued for something else eg I looked like a criminal ) .It does annoy you when you get stopped and you have done nothing wrong but in fairness to the police some are very good and explain why I was stopped in a understanding manner which pacified me.
It works both ways to get respect you have to give it .
Heard on the news today that Pc Harper's wife is meeting Priti Patel the home secretary over aiming to make it a life sentence for anyone killing not just police but any emergency worker.I think its the right thing to do.
Yes some good points .Ive been stopped a fair few times in my youth in London and abroad .(Probably because at the time I had a crew cut and was angry about stuff going on in my personal life which police misconstrued for something else eg I looked like a criminal ) .It does annoy you when you get stopped and you have done nothing wrong but in fairness to the police some are very good and explain why I was stopped in a understanding manner which pacified me.
It works both ways to get respect you have to give it .
Heard on the news today that Pc Harper's wife is meeting Priti Patel the home secretary over aiming to make it a life sentence for anyone killing not just police but any emergency worker.I think its the right thing to do.
If the thieves who did this had been convicted of murder they would have received a life sentence, the fact is that they were tried in a court of law and found guilty of manslaughter and sentenced accordingly. Perhaps you are more interested in revenge rather than justice Whether that was the right verdict is a moot point, the Judge has all the facts, has heard the case and followed set out guidelines according to the law. How you are relating any of this to black people being killed by policemen and facing no consequences is a mystery to me.
So last night a member of an armed militia, which have been working with the police, blew one protestor’s head off, nearly blew the arm off another protestor and then shot another person in the stomach killing him.
This is what people are facing when they ask not to be summarily executed by public servants.
Perhaps you are more interested in revenge rather than justice Whether that was the right verdict is a moot point, the Judge has all the facts, has heard the case and followed set out guidelines according to the law. How you are relating any of this to black people being killed by policemen and facing no consequences is a mystery to me.
.
Theres a element of revenge there yes but police like the army put themselves in the lion den.In effect there dealing mostly with lawbreakers and with hindsight they have to be protected more so than the typical person on the street. Likewise with the army.Some who have been ex servicemen dont want their children going into that profession for fear of being maimed or killed and the psychological scars that often follow.
The nature of law enforcement is vital to our society though and I have a lot of respect as noted for most army/police.A example of this if your not already aware was in the late 1960s police went on strike in Canada:
By 11:20 am, the first bank was robbed. By noon, most of the downtown stores were closed because of looting. Within a few more hours, taxi drivers burned down the garage of a limousine service that competed with them for airport customers, a rooftop sniper killed a provincial police officer, rioters broke into several hotels and restaurants, and a doctor slew a burglar in his suburban home. By the end of the day, six banks had been robbed, a hundred shops had been looted, twelve fires had been set, forty carloads of storefront glass had been broken, and three million dollars in property damage had been inflicted, before city authorities had to call in the army and of course, the police to restore order.
In reference to your last point Its all linked in Codcheeky.Hence a lot of black people have been marginalised/oppressed in history due to various reasons which makes some more prone to commit crime. Police have a difficult job of distinguishing who is in the right or the wrong and yes stereotyping does happen as it did to me and police like in any walk of life will get things wrong.But I sympathise with them as its a tough position to be in.Constantly having to make the right call in often pressurised situations.Like the army as well.
The only way round it is I feel to constantly seek to improve recruitment techniques and get the right people into the police.Hence those with a good conscience and a clear desire to want to better serve community's fairly.
Knowing he was there after the fact has been reflected in the lengthy sentences...proving they planned to do that wasn’t proved hence it can’t be murder...
Reforming that law isn’t really high on the agenda at present, there are plenty more pressing reforms to law and order that need addressing.
The irony is, she herself has intimated that every life is important but is pushing for a law that seemingly suggests the death of a serviceman should see an increased and more severe sentence...implying that their lives are in fact worth more...
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
Knowing he was there after the fact has been reflected in the lengthy sentences...proving they planned to do that wasn’t proved hence it can’t be murder...
Reforming that law isn’t really high on the agenda at present, there are plenty more pressing reforms to law and order that need addressing.
The irony is, she herself has intimated that every life is important but is pushing for a law that seemingly suggests the death of a serviceman should see an increased and more severe sentence...implying that their lives are in fact worth more...
That's a grotesque way of looking at it.
People on the front line are protecting the public from scum like this and lenient sentences dont give them the protection they need.
The law does need changing so that low life would think again before killing a policeman or other front line worker.
I see a report says the killers got over £450,000 in legal aid in their bid to escape justice. Hard to imagine a more disgusting use of public funds than that.
He starts off by saying the amount spent on legal aid was not £500,000 as reported by the media but a mere £465,000 which tells you all you need to know about how out of touch they are with the taxpayers who have to fund it.
Career criminals get £465,000 public money for legal aid. Something has gone seriously wrong.
He starts off by saying the amount spent on legal aid was not £500,000 as reported by the media but a mere £465,000 which tells you all you need to know about how out of touch they are with the taxpayers who have to fund it.
Career criminals get £465,000 public money for legal aid. Something has gone seriously wrong.
I'm trying not to be unkind here but did you even read the article? VAT at 20% alone is in the region of £78000. There may be a case to query the actual fee structure for barristers but that is hardly the fault of the scumbags. I know you have a problem with it but under British law everyone deserves the right to a fair trial. That right does not unfortunately come without cost. These three were tried and convicted under one of the best legal systems the world has to offer.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
He starts off by saying the amount spent on legal aid was not £500,000 as reported by the media but a mere £465,000 which tells you all you need to know about how out of touch they are with the taxpayers who have to fund it.
Career criminals get £465,000 public money for legal aid. Something has gone seriously wrong.
So which of the below do you disagree with??
1.Anyone accused of a criminal offence has the right to a fair trial. 2.It’s not a fair trial if the prosecution has lawyers and the accused does not. 3.Legal aid rates are fixed by government well below market rates.
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
I'm trying not to be unkind here but did you even read the article? VAT at 20% alone is in the region of £78000. There may be a case to query the actual fee structure for barristers but that is hardly the fault of the scumbags. I know you have a problem with it but under British law everyone deserves the right to a fair trial. That right does not unfortunately come without cost. These three were tried and convicted under one of the best legal systems the world has to offer.
If you are happy that £465,000 was spent on legal aid for career criminals then so be it.
I am not happy about that and dont care how much of the bill VAT accounted for.
The once great British criminal justice system now seems more weighted in favour of career criminals and it has fallen to the widow of a young police officer to try and do something about it.
I am not being unkind but anybody who thinks that £465,000 is a fair amount for legal aid for people already well known to the justice system, who have killed a police officer whilst carrying out his duties is so far out of touch it is frightening.
So, to clarify: if tonight your home is broken into and you struggle with a burglar who subsequently falls down the stairs to their death then you’re quite happy to foot the bill for your defence and not rely on the taxpayer?
So, to clarify: if tonight your home is broken into and you struggle with a burglar who subsequently falls down the stairs to their death then you’re quite happy to foot the bill for your defence and not rely on the taxpayer?
You miss the point spectacularly.
Legal aid was introduced to enable the poor to have a defence in court. Over the years it has been more difficult to get legal aid yet here we have career criminals benefitting to the tune of £465,000 after killing a policeman whilst he was on duty.
It is not as simple as stating the principle of legal aid is what matters. If it were that simple and it could be afforded it would available to everyone including in the hypothetical case you mentioned.
I am arguing that spending over £450,000 on legal aid for career criminals who have killed a serving policeman is morally indefensible.
I am sure you are not on the side of these evil and cowardly killers just to try and score points, but dont you think there should be a practical and moral imperative that legal aid is fairly distributed to more deserving cases?
But it has become more difficult to obtain because of a series of decisions from previous governments.
Legal aid is there for a reason. Worrying about how much they received is futile when government ministers are handing out multimillion pound contracts for PPE and the likes to their chums.
By increasing sentences for assaults/killing of a copper puts them above other people thus suggesting they’re more important or of a higher stature...they’re not, that’s not me saying the police aren’t important but me recognising that’s a multitude of jobs carry significant risks therefore how do you justify increasing sentences for assaults/murder against police officers and not others? You can’t.
In this case we have, and understandably, a traumatised wife who has been through the most horrific ordeal who is obviously angry, frustrated, hurt, broken, sad and everything else but as a family member of a murder victim once said to me, “at this point I’m the worst person to ask about all these things because I can’t give a balanced or healthy view...come back to me in a few years”...at last conversation that person is doing exactly that, looking at prison reform and campaigning for more logical and consistent sentences.
This is a case where people will naturally get wound up and passions increase, even for people that weren’t actually affected by it but the initial comment was based on justice not being done when, in the eyes of the law, it has been done.
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
Legal aid was introduced to enable the poor to have a defence in court. Over the years it has been more difficult to get legal aid yet here we have career criminals benefitting to the tune of £465,000 after killing a policeman whilst he was on duty.
It is not as simple as stating the principle of legal aid is what matters. If it were that simple and it could be afforded it would available to everyone including in the hypothetical case you mentioned.
I am arguing that spending over £450,000 on legal aid for career criminals who have killed a serving policeman is morally indefensible.
I am sure you are not on the side of these evil and cowardly killers just to try and score points, but dont you think there should be a practical and moral imperative that legal aid is fairly distributed to more deserving cases?
We’ve already suffered through your views on legal aid during your ranting & raving over Shamima Begum.
You either support the concept of legal aid or you don’t.
Luckily, we live in a society where there is a presumption of innocence and every citizen has the right to a fair and impartial trial, no matter the crime, no matter the person or persons being tried.
I have sat on a jury for a case of malicious wounding. Some nice young man had stuck a glass in the face of a girl at a barbeque. We were told by the judge in no uncertain terms to put aside our personal feelings and only reach a decision based on the evidence. The prosecution had to prove beyond any doubt that said young man had done the deed. We all thought he most probably had, but the prosecution failed to prove beyond doubt that he had and we had to acquit him. It stuck in my throat at the time, but if there was even a shred of doubt that he had done it, he had to be found not guilty.
These young men did a heinous thing, but were tried and sentenced according to the law, with the aforementioned presumption of innocence. I have no problem with that, or the amount of money it cost to reach that verdict. Are people now going to complain about how much money it will cost the taxpayer to keep them in prison and try to rehabilitate them, which is also part of our justice system.
Maybe we adopt the practices of other less enlightened countries and just have had them summarily beheaded in public without a trial. That would save a fortune.
Sorry Pete but i disagree. They got convicted of manslaughter and were sentenced on the guidelines, whatever you may think of them. There are loads of grieving families out there who have lost loved ones to drunk drivers for example, and have to live with the transgressors being charged accordingly and serving what some see as lenient sentences. Unless the perpetrators acted with malice aforethought and set out to murder the young officer, they could only be charged with manslaughter and the sentences that come with it.
Their behaviour, although disgusting, cannot be used as a reason to deny them their legal rights and access to legal aid. It sticks in the throat but as soon as the press and public start deciding who is, and who is not worthy of a fair trial, it's a very slippery slope.
Sorry Pete but i disagree. They got convicted of manslaughter and were sentenced on the guidelines, whatever you may think of them. There are loads of grieving families out there who have lost loved ones to drunk drivers for example, and have to live with the transgressors being charged accordingly and serving what some see as lenient sentences. Unless the perpetrators acted with malice aforethought and set out to murder the young officer, they could only be charged with manslaughter and the sentences that come with it.
Their behaviour, although disgusting, cannot be used as a reason to deny them their legal rights and access to legal aid. It sticks in the throat but as soon as the press and public start deciding who is, and who is not worthy of a fair trial, it's a very slippery slope.
Are you telling me they did not know they were dragging him for over a mile and did not know he was there when he was going from one side of the road to the other. It was murder in my eyes.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
Are you telling me they did not know they were dragging him for over a mile and did not know he was there when he was doing from one side of the road to the other. It was murder in my eyes.
My, or your thoughts don't matter. The only thing that matters is the evidence, which would have been presented to the Crown Prosecution Service, who would then have decided on the crime to be tried. It is then up to the prosecution and defence to present their arguments, and the jury to decide the outcome.
The police would have done everything in their power to collate evidence for a murder conviction, given it was one of their own, but they didn't find sufficient to do so.
The opinion of the press and the public should hold no sway. Do i think they are scumbags? Yes of course i do, but they have been tried and sentenced according to the current law. We have one of the best justice systems in the world, and to bend it for individual cases is a very slippery slope.
Just to clarify I am not saying they should not have legal aid as I said in another post the law of what is murder and what is manslaughter should be looked at.
If they knew he was there and I believe they did then they must have known he could be killed so a murder charge should be made.
The same with drunken driving if you know before you have a drink if you kill somebody while under the influence it's murder.
I know the law will not be changed but they are my views.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
The opinion of the press and the public should hold no sway. Do i think they are scumbags? Yes of course i do, but they have been tried and sentenced according to the current law. We have one of the best justice systems in the world, and to bend it for individual cases is a very slippery slope.
The law though ginny is created by man and man is not perfect so things should not be set in stone .Like nature things sometimes have to evolve.Its happened before when Sarah Payne that little girl which got murdered and they created Sarahs law which the home office said was a success.
I personally think the tougher the punishment(within reason) the less people are likely to commit the crime.
Going back to Legal aid, I’d rather not live with a system which allocates aid on the basis of who the ghouls at the Daily Heil have decided are the scum of the week. It might just be you, one day.
Thanks for the link Ska Face. I read it and whilst I think there's some truth to it eg it's not just about tough punishment but rehabilitation as well in prisons it's just some studies that looked at cases in USA and Norway. On a individual basis I've read numerous cases of high profile boxers that alluded for one in their autobiographys if it wasn't for tough punishment by parents when young they would have gone on to commit far harder crimes. This is borne out as well by others who have lived in the middle east for 15 years. A ex bouncer for one stated that people over there were far less likely to commit low level crimes for fear of being punished by the authorities eg beatings for one for muggings by police . Likewise the public got involved as well in helping the police give out rough justice.He cited a lot of the problems in the UK were caused by the authorities being to soft on crime and criminals likely to take more risks here as there is no fear. Extreme case I know but the point remains without punishment certain people will go astray. Hence studies show on a local level certain criminality is borne out of a lack of discipline in the home for children and as they get older they just turn out to be wild. This is part genetics as well. Hence some children like dogs are more aggressive by nature and where there is no strong discipline it creates a recipe for disaster.
Legal aid was introduced to enable the poor to have a defence in court. Over the years it has been more difficult to get legal aid yet here we have career criminals benefitting to the tune of £465,000 after killing a policeman whilst he was on duty.
It is not as simple as stating the principle of legal aid is what matters. If it were that simple and it could be afforded it would available to everyone including in the hypothetical case you mentioned.
I am arguing that spending over £450,000 on legal aid for career criminals who have killed a serving policeman is morally indefensible.
I am sure you are not on the side of these evil and cowardly killers just to try and score points, but dont you think there should be a practical and moral imperative that legal aid is fairly distributed to more deserving cases?
I honestly think you would be surprised at the extent to which legal aid is given in relation to how financially secure the defendants are-especially in cases involving very serious crimes often necessitating a long and expensive trial. I don't know for certain but I'd hazard a guess that only these libel cases and other civil cases find people paying their own costs if they lose. It is only morally indefensible if you don't consider that there is a premise that everyone is innocent until on the weight of evidence they are found guilty. My morals stretch as far as the most important point of the British legal system being entitlement to a fair trial and the legal representation that ensures that happens. On the face of it (and I didn't really follow the case and evidence) this was an open and shut case but what would happen if there was real doubt and that doubt couldn't be heard because of a lack of funding for defence lawyers? Morally THAT is indefensible.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
I honestly think you would be surprised at the extent to which legal aid is given in relation to how financially secure the defendants are-especially in cases involving very serious crimes often necessitating a long and expensive trial. I don't know for certain but I'd hazard a guess that only these libel cases and other civil cases find people paying their own costs if they lose. It is only morally indefensible if you don't consider that there is a premise that everyone is innocent until on the weight of evidence they are found guilty. My morals stretch as far as the most important point of the British legal system being entitlement to a fair trial and the legal representation that ensures that happens. On the face of it (and I didn't really follow the case and evidence) this was an open and shut case but what would happen if there was real doubt and that doubt couldn't be heard because of a lack of funding for defence lawyers? Morally THAT is indefensible.
If you still go canvassing at election time ask some voters if they think their taxes should go to help pay £465,000 of legal aid for career criminals and let us know what reception you get.
The system is flawed. Legal aid is not a given (apart from basic advice) and many people are refused legal aid yet the legal teams for these individuals have trousered £465,000 with a lot more to come as the appeals process continues.
Mrs Harper is quite right to question the absurdity of a legal system that seems to bend over backwards to help the perpetrators but seems to have scant regard for the victims.
I admit this case has inflamed passions about the whole of the justice system not just the amount of legal aid but Mrs Harper is receiving incredible support from the public and quite rightly so.
If you still go canvassing at election time ask some voters if they think their taxes should go to help pay £465,000 of legal aid for career criminals and let us know what reception you get.
The system is flawed. Legal aid is not a given (apart from basic advice) and many people are refused legal aid yet the legal teams for these individuals have trousered £465,000 with a lot more to come as the appeals process continues.
Mrs Harper is quite right to question the absurdity of a legal system that seems to bend over backwards to help the perpetrators but seems to have scant regard for the victims.
I admit this case has inflamed passions about the whole of the justice system not just the amount of legal aid but Mrs Harper is receiving incredible support from the public and quite rightly so.
But that's the point. If I went to canvass on this subject then I would present the full case not just use an emotive figure quote without explanation. This is EXACTLY what is wrong with political debate in the 21st century (from both sides) all emotion with facts and context the victims. Desperately sad. I wouldn't argue with you about the fact that the cost of the legal system seems to be on an upward never ending spiral. I'm not sure what the answer is to that.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
But that's the point. If I went to canvass on this subject then I would present the full case not just use an emotive figure quote without explanation. This is EXACTLY what is wrong with political debate in the 21st century (from both sides) all emotion with facts and context the victims. Desperately sad. I wouldn't argue with you about the fact that the cost of the legal system seems to be on an upward never ending spiral. I'm not sure what the answer is to that.
We know the full case. Career criminals killed a serving policeman. They got a sentence most sane people would consider inadequate and to rub salt into the wounds their legal team milked the publicly funded legal aid system for all it's worth.
It is left to the grieving widow with the support of the public to try to toughen up the sentencing for killing a front line worker and to hold the legal aid system to account.
What else is there to know?
This is not the first case where the public have been outraged by the gross imbalance between how the perpetrators and the victims are treated and sadly it wont be the last.
However I feel a great deal of admiration for Mrs Harper 's determination that something be done to start correcting the imbalance.
Here they are, read a few pages in The Sun and listened to some blowhard on talk radio for 10 mins, so now they know more than the judge, jury, and entire legal system.
We know the full case. Career criminals killed a serving policeman. They got a sentence most sane people would consider inadequate and to rub salt into the wounds their legal team milked the publicly funded legal aid system for all it's worth.
It is left to the grieving widow with the support of the public to try to toughen up the sentencing for killing a front line worker and to hold the legal aid system to account.
What else is there to know?
This is not the first case where the public have been outraged by the gross imbalance between how the perpetrators and the victims are treated and sadly it wont be the last.
However I feel a great deal of admiration for Mrs Harper 's determination that something be done to start correcting the imbalance.
You persist in aggregating the issue of cost with that of the length of sentences under the system. They are two absolutely totally different issues. I wish the lady in question all the luck in the world in her attempts to get stricter sentencing for the manslaughter/murder of custodians of the law but sadly for your argument the cost of arriving at the verdict which would see perpetrators receive those new sentences would be at least the same. I might not agree with you but I readily concede that normally your arguments are well put. I cannot for the life of me see why you cannot see that the argument for a fair trial should not have itself moderated by cost. If you were arguing that you wanted the legal professions gravy train halted or at least slowed down I could happily support that. Some things..and I happen to believe that the enactment of Justice is one...transcends money.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
The gravy train of the legal profession has been prevalent for so long now I don’t think there’s a time where we can remember legal aid etc. Being cheap.
It’s no different if you go private so to speak. I met several barristers of accused folk who were earning eye watering amounts, some even knew their client was guilty. For the it’s a game and the chase...
Locally, one of our well known solicitors made some seriously large sums from the Huntley case. It’s how it is. Does it make it right? Probably not but equally, the removal of legal aid based on what the alleged crime is is simply not fair or just.
It’s always been a complex issue but if it didn’t exist then pretty ouch any every day folk would simply not get their day in court, something you’re entitled to. I’ve known people use legal aid to challenge a serious accusation and win, had they not been entitled to that they’d be sat in a prison cell accused and convicted of a murder they didn’t commit...that’s not fair.
This lady will go on her crusade and she may win, will it change? Possibly not. Sentences aren’t as cut and dry as that. That’s how the law works. I taught several kids who committed, in theory, the same crime yet all got different sentences because of victim impact statements, context, understanding and so much more.
I don’t think anyone has argued that there isn’t a need for both justice reform and prison reform but it’s unlikely to ever really happen. We have social media and the likes which are great vessel for influencing folk and promoting an agenda, an agenda which seems to focus on lengthy sentences with zero effort at rehabilitation simply because it makes people feel better...even though they’re not affected by it.
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
This is a very provocative and emotive case and I have to say I’ve been caught up in it myself. Initially I looked at the case and wanted ‘justice’ for that poor man and his family. I realise my ‘justice‘ was in part revenge and born out of a natural human instinct to right a clear wrong. I look at my own perspective as a case in point as to why law must be applied matter of factly or clinically for want of a better phrase. Especially given the abhorrent behaviour of the seemingly remorseless perpetrators.
I can fully understand the quest of lissie Harper to change the law and her disgust for the people responsible for her husbands death, I think I would feel exactly the same. Sadly her biggest battle may lie ahead in letting go and truly grieving. My heart goes out to her.
Again when faced with the amount spent on legal aid, it is easy to get angry about it, at least Initially on the surface of it and I’d argue it’s natural for many to think that way. On Considered reflection and although in certain circumstances it’s challenging to hold this view, I cannot get away from the principle that everyone deserves a fair trial irrespective Of their crimes. Barralad makes a Great point about justice transcending money and I have to agree with that.
“I know writers who use subtext and they’re all cowards.” –Garth Marenghi
We know the full case. Career criminals killed a serving policeman. They got a sentence most sane people would consider inadequate and to rub salt into the wounds their legal team milked the publicly funded legal aid system for all it's worth.
It is left to the grieving widow with the support of the public to try to toughen up the sentencing for killing a front line worker and to hold the legal aid system to account.
What else is there to know?
This is not the first case where the public have been outraged by the gross imbalance between how the perpetrators and the victims are treated and sadly it wont be the last.
However I feel a great deal of admiration for Mrs Harper 's determination that something be done to start correcting the imbalance.
?? Can you provide some evidence that the legal aid fund was incorrectly used? You seem very good at pointing out these inaccuracies but strangely enough provide no feedback when asked??
“There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire.”- Murray Walker
?? Can you provide some evidence that the legal aid fund was incorrectly used? You seem very good at pointing out these inaccuracies but strangely enough provide no feedback when asked??
What the hell is up with you people?
Petty career criminals took a serving policeman's life, they got a derisory sentence and criminal legal aid which is our money amounting to £465,000 and counting, and you seem more concerned about my understandable reaction on a bloody message board.
Like a lot of people I support Mrs Harpers attempts to bring about tougher sentences and a review into the amount of legal aid given in such cases.
Petty career criminals took a serving policeman's life, they got a derisory sentence and criminal legal aid which is our money amounts to £465,000 and counting, and you seem more concerned about my understandable reaction on a bloody message board.
Like a lot of people I support Mrs Harpers attempts to bring about tougher sentences and a review into the amount of legal aid given in such cases.
Did they not get sentences of 16, 13 and 13 years? That’s a long time to be in prison.
It’s a long time to reflect on the their stupidity and the utter tragedy they have caused.
We have to be clear on the differences between justice and revenge.
Would longer sentences stop people committing these crimes? The evidence suggests not.
Petty career criminals took a serving policeman's life, they got a derisory sentence and criminal legal aid which is our money amounts to £465,000 and counting, and you seem more concerned about my understandable reaction on a bloody message board.
Like a lot of people I support Mrs Harpers attempts to bring about tougher sentences and a review into the amount of legal aid given in such cases.
This is just a regurgitation of the points you’ve made over and over already and is the equivalent of saying the same thing in an argument only shouting it louder and louder each time.
Do you actually digest what people write in reply (I am asking genuinely)? Simple questions have been asked which would develop the discussion yet they remain unanswered.
In answer to your question, there is nothing wrong with me, whilst I can, to a point, understand your view, I just think differently to you.
“I know writers who use subtext and they’re all cowards.” –Garth Marenghi
This is just a regurgitation of the points you’ve made over and over already and is the equivalent of saying the same thing in an argument only shouting it louder and louder each time.
Do you actually digest what people write in reply (I am asking genuinely)? Simple questions have been asked which would develop the discussion yet they remain unanswered.
In answer to your question, there is nothing wrong with me, whilst I can, to a point, understand your view, I just think differently to you.
I have no intention of providing answers to you or anybody else. My view repeated again is that these career criminals should have been given longer sentences and I am against huge sums of legal aid being used in cases like this. I am at one with the widow of PC Harper who is someone I admire greatly who has the guts to say we have had enough of soft sentences and legal aid for repeat offenders.
I have no intention of providing answers to you or anybody else. My view repeated again is that these career criminals should have been given longer sentences and I am against huge sums of legal aid being used in cases like this. I am at one with the widow of PC Harper who is someone I admire greatly who has the guts to say we have had enough of soft sentences and legal aid for repeat offenders.
I am in no way defending them. They have killed a young man and it is a truly awful crime.
I would agree with you if they served the full time but they will be out in half of those sentences which to my mind is criminal itself.
They took a life for gods sake and dont tell me they did not know he was there or are you a non driver. ?
As pointed out, they’re unlikely to be able to apply for parole until they’re 2/3 through and then it’s a lottery with the parole board granting release for only 1 in 5.
In addition to that, the criticism of the whole, serve half your sentence, is odd as it’s been law for a long time now. Longer than most think and although it may be more prevalent or known, it’s been around for ages. It works too but again, that doesn’t fit an agenda.
Perhaps if the government followed through (unlikely I know) to release and recalculate sentences for those on illegal sentences and indeterminate then we’d free up space and be able to provide proper rehabilitation...again though, I’m aware this isn’t the agenda. Some folk would rather we have a privately operated, cash for numbers system like America. A system that is catastrophically under performing and does more harm than good because it’s literally a cash cow.
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
As pointed out, they’re unlikely to be able to apply for parole until they’re 2/3 through and then it’s a lottery with the parole board granting release for only 1 in 5.
In addition to that, the criticism of the whole, serve half your sentence, is odd as it’s been law for a long time now. Longer than most think and although it may be more prevalent or known, it’s been around for ages. It works too but again, that doesn’t fit an agenda.
Perhaps if the government followed through (unlikely I know) to release and recalculate sentences for those on illegal sentences and indeterminate then we’d free up space and be able to provide proper rehabilitation...again though, I’m aware this isn’t the agenda. Some folk would rather we have a privately operated, cash for numbers system like America. A system that is catastrophically under performing and does more harm than good because it’s literally a cash cow.
I don’t think people want an American privatised jail system. What they want to see is violent people taken off the streets for a long period of time, sentences that mean what they say and an end to the constant “last chance” court appearances by repeat offenders. To give someone 21 years when the world and his dog know it really means release them after 14 is an insult and con that was thought up to look tough while keeping prison numbers within budget. On top of that we had an industry invented by the likes of Lord Longford to release convicts into society to help with their reform. This too had attractions for the inmate costs but it has always been underfunded and so gives an other axe to grind when someone reoffends.
If you lose someone to a violent criminal act or are a victim of one then your first reaction is going to be anger. It happened to me so I know. The judicial system has to balance that against other issues like intent and circumstance but once you start to add in sentencing instructions that have ideological or budget roots we are on dodgy ground. To my mind the killers of the PC deserve to serve a full tariff just as much as the Manchester bomber does. They were both deliberate acts where the perpetrator knew the likely consequences regardless of their backgrounds and education. They knew it was wrong, indeed evil, but didn’t care. There is no excuse. If in future someone makes one on whatever grounds I sincerely hope they fail.
“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.” ― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty."
If you lose someone to a violent criminal act or are a victim of one then your first reaction is going to be anger. It happened to me so I know.
Sorry to hear Ron.
Like you Ive often seen injustices in this life and it angers me no end .Ive learnt to try to release the anger as it doesnt do me no good to have that in me.Just tears you apart. People that do others wrong will pay in this life or the next(being a Catholic myself I believe there is something beyond this world). Hence life is precious and if you against that you go against everything.
Like you Ive often seen injustices in this life and it angers me no end .Ive learnt to try to release the anger as it doesnt do me no good to have that in me.Just tears you apart. People that do others wrong will pay in this life or the next(being a Catholic myself I believe there is something beyond this world). Hence life is precious and if you against that you go against everything.
God bless you.
Thank you Rick. Keeping anger forever just eats away at you so that's wrong. But on the other hand we should never forget how angry we felt at the time because that is a part of us and informs our opinions and beliefs. What it should never do is be the whole of them, the sole reason for our opinions.
Looking at some of the posts they show a lack of balance between liberal reformers and the hang 'em high brigade, polarised. That's wrong. They are not exclusive, there is room for both in a penal policy. My concern is when pragmatism disappears and one starts to be the boss for no other reason than an ideology or more often an anti-ideology.
“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.” ― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty."
Thank you Rick. Keeping anger forever just eats away at you so that's wrong. But on the other hand we should never forget how angry we felt at the time because that is a part of us and informs our opinions and beliefs. What it should never do is be the whole of them, the sole reason for our opinions.
Looking at some of the posts they show a lack of balance between liberal reformers and the hang 'em high brigade, polarised. That's wrong. They are not exclusive, there is room for both in a penal policy. My concern is when pragmatism disappears and one starts to be the boss for no other reason than an ideology or more often an anti-ideology.
id have put them up against a wall and shot them....but that's me
Best example I ever saw of the whole eye for an eye thing being a complete and utter waste of time was listening to a holocaust survivor.
He categorically disagreed with capital punishment, he believed, and had the support of friends who had been through the holocaust too when he said that many of the Nazi’s that were executed shouldn’t have been. As he said, it didn’t actually make the lib go away, but nor did it make him feel good. Simply doing it to them because they did it to others did not make it right or just.
He spoke eloquently about the fact we could’ve learned from those SS officers, we could’ve understood just how powerful propaganda could be and used them to ensure things like that were not to happen again.
Similarly, I spoke at length with some families whilst working in custody, from the US, and as Ron points out, spending your days hating the perpetrator just eats you away. One family had actively worked hard to get the death penalty removed for the person who had killed their father/husband...they were positive people who led an amazing life and were fighting the point of capital sentences. On the other hand, another family I met were so torn up and frustrated, angry, sad and empty in some ways. They were constantly waiting for the phone, desperate to know the execution date and so forth. There desperation to see the perp executed was eating away at them...I spoke with other families who had been to executions and the all said it didn’t make there lives any better or easier and one even admitted they felt an element of guilt.
It’s all very complex but it’s really easy to say you’d just take em round the back and shoot them. It’s more in-depth than that.
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
It’s all very complex but it’s really easy to say you’d just take em round the back and shoot them. It’s more in-depth than that.
Nice post Aldi.
Personally I think there should always be punishment to some degree as otherwise people will never learn. Having said that I feel those that do get away with harming others(hence you hear of murders being unsolved etc) may have got away from mans law but not their consciousness.
Having seen a child who’d killed someone, and been caught go from cocky to a full breakdown in a matter of weeks and then the countless night terrors and so forth...those that seemingly get away with it certainly can’t escape their own mind.
It’s always a divisive discussion and naturally heated but it’s a worthwhile discussion.
'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
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I think you need to see the light a bit more and clear your head again as you seem a bit confused .Police done wrong against George Floyd and got rightly tried.People killed a UK policeman and got let of initially lightly .All this is about is trying to get justice.Yes your right in the later part of your post justice still needs to be served for certain cases involving police in the USA.
