Adapting to a Style of Play

All of this noise around our style of play at the moment seems very reminiscent of AB1. Were we not right near the bottom of the league by late October of his first season as the players took time to adapt? I’m sure we then went on a bit of a run leading to a decent finish with promotion the following season. (My memory may be a little muddled here)
Point I’m making is if we do allow the process to work then the potential riches are there. It’s taking a huge leap of faith to stay with it though as everyone knows quite how shite the alternative outcome is.

Does the style of play not allow for adaptation to circumstances though?  If it is as predictable as the Stockport manager was suggesting then we are making a rod for our own back.  There has to be room for players to express themselves within an otherwise, overly-rigid system.

The defenders are free to express themselves by winning a few headers, marking players and making challenges. There are no circumstances where the style of play restricts them from doing that.

The midfielders have more scope to express themselves, which they could do if they showed a bit more willingness to get on the ball and then a bit more quality in keeping hold of it.

Maybe. It’s possible that what we’ve witnessed lately is merely the ugly chrysalis that has to go before our metamorphosis into a beautiful butterfly. But there’s also a little bit of Sir Alex’s law about this supposition - that because Ferguson struggled and was almost sacked before going onto achieve wonders at Man Yoo, that all other struggling managers will do the same, if given the time. It’s hard to know when you’ve got a Ferguson or Buckley on your hands, but they are incredibly rare entities.

I prefer the theory of Occam’s Razor - that if you have two competing ideas to explain the same phenomenon, you should prefer the simpler one. If it looks like it’s not working, then it’s probably because it’s not working.

What worries me, is that Artell started well. That performance at MK Dons, after just a single training session, was night and day compared to anything we had seen either this season or last, at least in terms of the playing style. That was followed by a good performance away at Oxford in the cup, and then another solid win against Crewe. But then, with the exception of a win against a very, very poor Salford and our forward play against Notts County, it’s not been great, and it’s not looked very good for the most part.

Artell’s preferred style of play can be very difficult to combat when you’re exceptional at it, but an absolute doddle to deal with when you’re not quite on it, as Stockport demonstrated with consummate ease at the weekend. My worry is that teams have worked us out, and that’s the main reason for this barren spell of 1 win in 9 games. And that’s a genuinely concerning record. We went down under Woods not because we lost a lot, but because we couldn’t win.

Artell doesn’t have the luxury of time. If he can’t find a way to counter what teams are doing to stop us playing out, or find another way to play entirely, then I don’t think this willl end well for him.

We’ll learn a little bit more in a few hours time.

I've said this before and nothing has dissuaded me from my view:

You sign players who can play to a system or you play a system based around the players you've got.

I have a suspicion that DA is caught between 2 stools at the moment. I wouldn't have a problem if he forgot all about it and turned us into an ugly football team who are difficult to beat until we are guaranteed safety and then he can work on passing all he wants.

It will all work out in the end  

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

I've said this before and nothing has dissuaded me from my view:

You sign players who can play to a system or you play a system based around the players you've got.

I have a suspicion that DA is caught between 2 stools at the moment. I wouldn't have a problem if he forgot all about it and turned us into an ugly football team who are difficult to beat until we are guaranteed safety and then he can work on passing all he wants.

If we lose tonight I will post him another stool nicely wrapped.

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

I've said this before and nothing has dissuaded me from my view:

You sign players who can play to a system or you play a system based around the players you've got.

I have a suspicion that DA is caught between 2 stools at the moment. I wouldn't have a problem if he forgot all about it and turned us into an ugly football team who are difficult to beat until we are guaranteed safety and then he can work on passing all he wants.

We started the season off playing possession based passing football, then reverted to PH's more standard style of play and then back to a passing style under DA. In all scenarios we've generally been crap, which makes me think its got nothing to do with what system/style we play.

Quoted from ska face

The defenders are free to express themselves by winning a few headers, marking players and making challenges. There are no circumstances where the style of play restricts them from doing that.

The midfielders have more scope to express themselves, which they could do if they showed a bit more willingness to get on the ball and then a bit more quality in keeping hold of it.

Our first goal conceded against Stockport reminded me (and by the reaction of the crowd, a fair number of others) of those games on the park where a game of kids with the unpopular fat kid in goal who passes it to the opposition and then concedes a goal.  The groans from the Pontoon sounded just like the rest of the fat kids team-mates.

What’s the point in trying to get these players to play a specific way when they’re all shiiit and will be leaving at the end of the season. Just stay up

The one thing that needed doing when DA came in was to steady the ship , get a few draws and wins in the bag to build the team’s confidence. Make us hard to beat . This obsession with changing the style of play overnight was really naive and has proved to be even more damaging in terms of morale by the looks of it in terms of players body language and decision making. Too much too soon with the options available to him now .
I’ll always hope a corner will be turned and things will click but I’m not overly confident . It’s some seriously good man management that’s needed now , not a fancy tactics .

Quoted from Theimperialcoroner

All of this noise around our style of play at the moment seems very reminiscent of AB1. Were we not right near the bottom of the league by late October of his first season as the players took time to adapt? I’m sure we then went on a bit of a run leading to a decent finish with promotion the following season. (My memory may be a little muddled here)
Point I’m making is if we do allow the process to work then the potential riches are there. It’s taking a huge leap of faith to stay with it though as everyone knows quite how shite the alternative outcome is.

Think we finished 9th?
I remember losing 0-4 to Rotherham at home possibly 0-4 at  HT and other than Spurs 0-3 and West Ham 1-5 the only time I recall the Town players getting a standing ovation for a pasting. We battered Rotherham from memory but couldn't score they had 4 chances and took them and went on to win the league. We had a decent cup run as well not sure if that was 1st or 2nd season losing to Wimbledon 3-1

Quoted from Poojah

Maybe. It’s possible that what we’ve witnessed lately is merely the ugly chrysalis that has to go before our metamorphosis into a beautiful butterfly. But there’s also a little bit of Sir Alex’s law about this supposition - that because Ferguson struggled and was almost sacked before going onto achieve wonders at Man Yoo, that all other struggling managers will do the same, if given the time. It’s hard to know when you’ve got a Ferguson or Buckley on your hands, but they are incredibly rare entities.

I prefer the theory of Occam’s Razor - that if you have two competing ideas to explain the same phenomenon, you should prefer the simpler one. If it looks like it’s not working, then it’s probably because it’s not working.

What worries me, is that Artell started well. That performance at MK Dons, after just a single training session, was night and day compared to anything we had seen either this season or last, at least in terms of the playing style. That was followed by a good performance away at Oxford in the cup, and then another solid win against Crewe. But then, with the exception of a win against a very, very poor Salford and our forward play against Notts County, it’s not been great, and it’s not looked very good for the most part.

Artell’s preferred style of play can be very difficult to combat when you’re exceptional at it, but an absolute doddle to deal with when you’re not quite on it, as Stockport demonstrated with consummate ease at the weekend. My worry is that teams have worked us out, and that’s the main reason for this barren spell of 1 win in 9 games. And that’s a genuinely concerning record. We went down under Woods not because we lost a lot, but because we couldn’t win.

Artell doesn’t have the luxury of time. If he can’t find a way to counter what teams are doing to stop us playing out, or find another way to play entirely, then I don’t think this willl end well for him.

We’ll learn a little bit more in a few hours time.

All of which makes me think that you start on this and bed it in and evolve it once you’re safe. Full pre-season and maybe even a handful of games at the end of this season if we’ve got security, but I’d prefer a more refined, pragmatic and perhaps compromised style to grind out results, get us out of the sh1t, and outside of the relegation death threat. Clearly he won’t do that, he says,  and he knows more about the game and his players than I do, so I’m probably wrong. The additional point for me though would be, that I would’ve thought you could only really confidently implement your model once you’re confident you have the players with the right and full range of attributes. Now, my eyesight ain’t that good, but everyone can see that we’ve got a lot of players who can’t do a lot of fairly rudimentary things with any consistent degree of competency. For me then, ploughing on regardless, when 3rd bottom and disregarding the judgement on players you can pick, is very, very high risk in this specific context.

Quoted from chaos33

All of which makes me think that you start on this and bed it in and evolve it once you’re safe. Full pre-season and maybe even a handful of games at the end of this season if we’ve got security, but I’d prefer a more refined, pragmatic and perhaps compromised style to grind out results, get us out of the sh1t, and outside of the relegation death threat. Clearly he won’t do that, he says,  and he knows more about the game and his players than I do, so I’m probably wrong. The additional point for me though would be, that I would’ve thought you could only really confidently implement your model once you’re confident you have the players with the right and full range of attributes. Now, my eyesight ain’t that good, but everyone can see that we’ve got a lot of players who can’t do a lot of fairly rudimentary things with any consistent degree of competency. For me then, ploughing on regardless, when 3rd bottom and disregarding the judgement on players you can pick, is very, very high risk in this specific context.

He won't change I'm certain of that

It's his way or bust

Glory or his last job in football league management

Brave or foolish ?

Time will tell

Quoted from GrimRob

It will all work out in the end  

I think you've been dreaming.

Quoted from DB

I think you've been dreaming.

Black-and-white white bear dressed as a traffic cone ?

Quoted from Mappers

He won't change I'm certain of that

It's his way or bust

Glory or his last job in football league management

Brave or foolish ?

Time will tell

In most of his interviews i think it is obvious he is going to stick to his way of playing and I suspect he got the job because the board also want to see the style of play he has promised.
As painful as it is now I agree with him and believe we are too good to go down mainly due to the fact there are at least two teams far worse than us
He has also said on many occassions this will take time and has warned us it might be tough at times.
He also said in one of his recent interviews it will take 3 transfer windows to get the personnel in to play the way he wants.
That will take us to the start of the 25/26 season.
If indeed we do survive this season I can see all the season ticket holders who give in after 30 mins will also not renew next year so i expect the ST sales to be well down on the last two relatively  good seasons on the field.
DA will not be going anywhere until at least the Autumn of 2025. So particularly next season when hopefully we are starting to see improvements we need to stick with the team for the full 90 minutes.
Its certainly hard being a Town fan at the moment but the board have invested in him and so will I as long as i can get up the steps to my seat.
Let's hope tonight is the first win in back to back wins for 40+ games

Quoted from 1mickylyons

Think we finished 9th?
I remember losing 0-4 to Rotherham at home possibly 0-4 at  HT and other than Spurs 0-3 and West Ham 1-5 the only time I recall the Town players getting a standing ovation for a pasting. We battered Rotherham from memory but couldn't score they had 4 chances and took them and went on to win the league. We had a decent cup run as well not sure if that was 1st or 2nd season losing to Wimbledon 3-1

That does sound about right. It kinda all merges into one at times.
If, and it is of course a massive if, DA does get this thing pulled together then I’ll be delighted if he even gets close to AB1. All he needs to do is sign an aging defender from Halifax and a European Cup winner and we’ll urine it.

I’ve said it before, AB1 was quite unique in his style at that time, the British way was to lump it forward to a big centre forward and hope to win the knock downs, even the national team played that way, but AB saw a new way so once in his second season the players had learnt what was expected opposing teams could be played off the pitch, but today the majority of teams try to play possession football so to be successful you need to be better at it then the opposition, that’s probably where we have a problem.Maybe, and I am a supporter of possession football, a team that plays the long ball with big physical players could succeed at our level because it’s different to what everyone else is playing, but it’s obvious the higher up the football pyramid you go possession style will be more successful.

I’d be interested to see how a team like the late 80s -early 90s Wimbledon would fare in the PL now. Ultra physical and fit with a direct style would probably devastate some teams now . Finishing with 11 men on the pitch would be unlikely however, which would mean it was less successful.

There was some interesting stuff on Humberside tonight with some of the ex players talking about Hull and Rosenior and how he had massive problems to start with playing out from the back, giving goals away and eventually getting it right. They were saying the system works but is down to the players making the right decisions and having the right personnel. Basically, everything Artell has been saying.  If you look at it most clubs in the premier league they play this way and if we are going to attract quality loans from higher up we need to follow this approach. You cant blame Artell for doing what he has been brought in for..They are his beliefs and the reason he was recruited. Maybe the positive away results at first clouded the view that the methods were working, but things have gone west quickly. I think it comes down to effectively managing change. Implementing a fundamental change immediately can be dangerous...It is important  to understand what you have to work with and manage the change
incrementally, so that performance is maintained... I think we will get there eventually but at the moment we have a plan A that i'snt working and no plan B so we are predictable. Just hope we do enough to stay up so he can implement this style with a preseason and the right players. UTM  

Quoted from Gilbertswand

There was some interesting stuff on Humberside tonight with some of the ex players talking about Hull and Rosenior and how he had massive problems to start with playing out from the back, giving goals away and eventually getting it right. They were saying the system works but is down to the players making the right decisions and having the right personnel. Basically, everything Artell has been saying.  If you look at it most clubs in the premier league they play this way and if we are going to attract quality loans from higher up we need to follow this approach. You cant blame Artell for doing what he has been brought in for..They are his beliefs and the reason he was recruited. Maybe the positive away results at first clouded the view that the methods were working, but things have gone west quickly. I think it comes down to effectively managing change. Implementing a fundamental change immediately can be dangerous...It is important  to understand what you have to work with and manage the change
incrementally, so that performance is maintained... I think we will get there eventually but at the moment we have a plan A that i'snt working and no plan B so we are predictable. Just hope we do enough to stay up so he can implement this style with a preseason and the right players. UTM  

But the players Rosenior has to work with at Hull are on a different level to ours .There wage bill last year was £16m ours is £3m

Also, Hull are not in danger of being relegated from the football league for the third time in their recent history !

Quoted from thevera

In most of his interviews i think it is obvious he is going to stick to his way of playing and I suspect he got the job because the board also want to see the style of play he has promised.
As painful as it is now I agree with him and believe we are too good to go down mainly due to the fact there are at least two teams far worse than us
He has also said on many occassions this will take time and has warned us it might be tough at times.
He also said in one of his recent interviews it will take 3 transfer windows to get the personnel in to play the way he wants.
That will take us to the start of the 25/26 season.
If indeed we do survive this season I can see all the season ticket holders who give in after 30 mins will also not renew next year so i expect the ST sales to be well down on the last two relatively  good seasons on the field.
DA will not be going anywhere until at least the Autumn of 2025. So particularly next season when hopefully we are starting to see improvements we need to stick with the team for the full 90 minutes.
Its certainly hard being a Town fan at the moment but the board have invested in him and so will I as long as i can get up the steps to my seat.
Let's hope tonight is the first win in back to back wins for 40+ games

I'm firmly on the fence tbh

I honestly don't know or pretend to have any idea which way it will go .

My only belief is he will either be a rip roaring success or complete failure - I can't see it being dull or anywhere in between the two variables .

Speaking of adapting to David’s Style of play

Stats at Crewe

League Two

First season at Crewe finished -17th

Second season- 15th

Third season- 12th

Fourth season 2nd due to Covid finishing season early

League One

Fifth season - 12th

Sixth season (sacked 24th relegated)

Obviously took some time out to reflect and learn lessons so may have evolved somewhat.

In that time Crewe took some hammerings each season a few 4/6-1

Quoted from FishySmithy

Speaking of adapting to David’s Style of play

In that time Crewe took some hammerings each season a few 4/6-1

I forgot Artell was in charge for this... we was 6 points off the play-offs as well lol.

Quoted from Theimperialcoroner

That does sound about right. It kinda all merges into one at times.
If, and it is of course a massive if, DA does get this thing pulled together then I’ll be delighted if he even gets close to AB1. All he needs to do is sign an aging defender from Halifax and a European Cup winner and we’ll urine it.

What AB1 had that DA doesn’t, from memory so apologies if wrong and for any omissions, was a good keeper (Sherwood), defence (Lever, Tilson, Agnew, McDermott), midfield, (Cunnington, Cockers, Gilbert, Jobling) and forwards (Rees, big Keith, North), Most of these held their own when we got to what is now championship level. Hopefully DA can keep us up but I think he may have to be more pragmatic in the short term to achieve long term goals.

Quoted from MrThirsty

What AB1 had that DA doesn’t, from memory so apologies if wrong and for any omissions, was a good keeper (Sherwood), defence (Lever, Tilson, Agnew, McDermott), midfield, (Cunnington, Cockers, Gilbert, Jobling) and forwards (Rees, big Keith, North), Most of these held their own when we got to what is now championship level. Hopefully DA can keep us up but I think he may have to be more pragmatic in the short term to achieve long term goals.

Three of those players, Tilson, Cockers and Big Keith , were signed from non- league clubs and were not initially thought of as good acquisitions. Buckley came from managing a non- league club as well.The general view from fans writing to the G.E.T was that the club were signing non-league staff to prepare for non- league football.

Fishysmithy - Do you seem to be saying thaat crewe had to adapt to Artells style of play?
That wasnt necessary.  He had played for Crewe and knew Crewe's style.  He got the job and things carried on as they always have.  The style was set by others 30 years ago and Artell had to follow it.
You are correct about big defeats though.  if the kids get it right they can look a bit like Brazil but if they dont (and regularly they dont) then the inevitable happens.
He got the sack cos his recruitment to fill holes that the kids couldnt fill was abysmal.  The exact opposite of this season.

Quoted from Gilbertswand

There was some interesting stuff on Humberside tonight with some of the ex players talking about Hull and Rosenior and how he had massive problems to start with playing out from the back, giving goals away and eventually getting it right. They were saying the system works but is down to the players making the right decisions and having the right personnel. Basically, everything Artell has been saying.  If you look at it most clubs in the premier league they play this way and if we are going to attract quality loans from higher up we need to follow this approach. You cant blame Artell for doing what he has been brought in for..They are his beliefs and the reason he was recruited. Maybe the positive away results at first clouded the view that the methods were working, but things have gone west quickly. I think it comes down to effectively managing change. Implementing a fundamental change immediately can be dangerous...It is important  to understand what you have to work with and manage the change
incrementally, so that performance is maintained... I think we will get there eventually but at the moment we have a plan A that i'snt working and no plan B so we are predictable. Just hope we do enough to stay up so he can implement this style with a preseason and the right players. UTM  

You have to say that trying it with the current set of donkeys when you're near the bottom of the league is a very risky strategy and currently one that's looking like poor judgement.

Playing out isn't a bad thing, unless you come up against teams who want to press you really hard and are in your faces constantly. Feels like it's relatively easy to play against if you're willing to put the efforts out of possession.

Quoted from Theimperialcoroner

All of this noise around our style of play at the moment seems very reminiscent of AB1. Were we not right near the bottom of the league by late October of his first season as the players took time to adapt? I’m sure we then went on a bit of a run leading to a decent finish with promotion the following season. (My memory may be a little muddled here)
Point I’m making is if we do allow the process to work then the potential riches are there. It’s taking a huge leap of faith to stay with it though as everyone knows quite how shite the alternative outcome is.

Worth remembering with Alan Buckley though that at a fans forum in his 3rd spell he mentioned how we had been repeatedly falling behind in the first minute or 2 of several games on the trot. He said he then gave instructions to his left back that from kick off in the next game it was to be played back to him and he was to launch it into the oppo corner flag and we were to close them down and make sure we got through the first couple of minutes and build into the game. He admitted it was totally against his principles but it was all about making sure we didn't shoot ourselves in the foot again.

Buckley was a stubborn manager, all the greats are, but he knew when to bend rather than break.

You don't get good at something by abandoning something when you make an error. You don't improve players decision making by giving them conflicting information. Passing may risk errors that could lead to opportunities but it also takes the heat off a team when they're under the cosh for 10 mins as you can hold on to it and take the sting out of it. It likely reduces goals conceded even if it may seem obvious the goals conceded doing that. Artell said if you concede 1 every 10 or 12 from doing it, but benefit from it a lot, it's worth it. Top teams do it and they occasionally mess up. Yes, we're not Man City, but also, we're not playing premier league teams every week.

If sticking to this style gives players a clearer idea of what they need to do and we can minimise and reduce the errors, I'd be in favour of sticking with it. If players hoof it up sporadically when the pressure is too much, also, fine. However, the decision should be the managers. I don't like fans trying to dictate how we should play. Many are bashing Stockdale for imposing a style on us, yet are trying to impose their own risk free approach. We went with Artell rather than Hurst, so that was the decision. We support it, move on, and hope it improves, and with that I certainly mean consistency, but we shouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

You have to say that trying it with the current set of donkeys when you're near the bottom of the league is a very risky strategy and currently one that's looking like poor judgement.

Playing out isn't a bad thing, unless you come up against teams who want to press you really hard and are in your faces constantly. Feels like it's relatively easy to play against if you're willing to put the efforts out of possession.

But that is the intention of playing out from the back. You draw the opposition to you and play through the press, which gives you the space and spare men to attack.

We are just not that good at it yet. The question is how long do you keep playing this way and hoping it clicks before we get relegated?

We've actually looked good doing it in some games, but failed to take the three points too many times. MK Dons, Notts County and Accrington yielded 3 points but should have been 7 and could have been 9.

Some interesting comments and very unfishylike sensible discussion.

For me we have to try to play football because they’d be even worse at the alternative more direct option. That’s what did my head in with the boos Vs Stockport. We we eventually tried hoofing it up for Rose to try and win it against their massive CBs, he tries but it’s not a game plan.
Now I’m not comparing Artell to AB, but one thing the latter did was make sure all his players knew what to do. Full backs were instructed to pass to one of two players for example and that’s mostly what they did. I just hope DA does it similarly simple.

There is the right time to play different ways but now when we are so close to going down again is not the time.

When we are safe or if we were middle of the table with plenty of points between us and the bottom two yes try something new.

If we carry on giving goals away and not winning games we could have done we will find ourselves wanting to win a.game to stay up come the last match of the season.

Come on Dave let's win a few games.before you experiment with different tactics.

Quoted from grimsby pete

There is the right time to play different ways but now when we are so close to going down again is not the time.

When we are safe or if we were middle of the table with plenty of points between us and the bottom two yes try something new.

If we carry on giving goals away and not winning games we could have done we will find ourselves wanting to win a.game to stay up come the last match of the season.

Come on Dave let's win a few games.before you experiment with different tactics.

Pete, the problem is that we’re now between a rock and a hard place. The players he’s brought in will be coached to play his way. My concern is that the trend is backwards. The best performances in his reign were towards the beginning, most recent less so.

Quoted from MrThirsty

What AB1 had that DA doesn’t, from memory so apologies if wrong and for any omissions, was a good keeper (Sherwood), defence (Lever, Tilson, Agnew, McDermott), midfield, (Cunnington, Cockers, Gilbert, Jobling) and forwards (Rees, big Keith, North), Most of these held their own when we got to what is now championship level. Hopefully DA can keep us up but I think he may have to be more pragmatic in the short term to achieve long term goals.

Some great discussion on here.
In Artell's defence, i think when AB came in Lever, Agnew, McDermott Cunnington Jobling and North were already here, the rest he brought in and also had the benefit of a preseason to implement the style (which was hit and miss at the start).

In contrast, Artell came in mid season on the end of a massive downward slump in form, has changed 6 players in the January window, and brought in a new and totally different style of play. It was always going to be a challenge.

I agree that pragmatism is important in the short term, but reflecting on what i wrote last night about managing the change carefully... i think its difficult for Artell as this is his only style of play and you can't really half do it.

I'm interested what everyone thinks?...
When we talk about pragmatism.. what is Artell supposed to do? How does he be pragmatic..?  

Stick with Hurst's style of play until the end of the season and try and make it work?
Bring in different players?
Change it up and knock it long when we don't have a target man?
Buy a lump to stick up front? (TBH i wouldn't mind us having this as a plan B)

I think Its SH*T or bust for Artell...he has no choice but to try and make his style work.

i know Hull are a totally different story with their wage bill and quality of player but  there are teams like Notts playing this way...I think in the next few seasons it will become the norm for pro teams.

All we can do is get behind the team and hope it comes off. UTM.

The Stockport commentators were saying that it may look bad at the moment but will pay dividends next season. Unfortunately for us, most of this squad are out of contract or loan players that will provide no benefits whatsoever for us.
We need points rather than pretty football although some people said they'd be happy to lose playing football rather than watching Hurstball.
I believe ( my opinion) that we'd have been in a much better position if we'd given Hurst the January window to sort it out. Was it 12 without a win in non league?
We lost 20 odd points from winning positions under Hurst. How many times have we scored 1st under Artell?
They say be careful what you wish for, this may be one of those moments if he doesn't realise everyone now knows how to play against us.

Didn’t sides know how to play against us under PH and previous Managers? Most teams have a style of play and one of the key criticisms of PH was that he put too much emphasis on the opposition and adjusted accordingly whereas DA is this is how we play and if we play it well we will win more than we lose.

Obviously that’s not worked yet but we did take the lead v Walsall and 2 goal lead v County and for 30 minutes in each match looked more than a decent team. Unfortunately, IMO, despite the major criticism of the defensive unit it’s our midfield that’s the major problem. Unless Thompson is the answer, he wasn’t on Saturday, then non of our midfield players show for the ball which makes Rodgers and Maher continually pass square or back or after a quick barracking from the BP faithful panic and hoof it of touch.

We as fans have been starved of decent football at BP for quite sometime but particularly since our recent return to EFL which, in my mind, has made us less tolerant to what many see as fannying around at the back. Add to this the fear of a third relegation to oblivion in 14 years and it’s going to take some real backbone to stick with our current tactics at BP. I like many get palpitations when we are doing it but don’t feel there is any merit in booing at players and shouting get it forward every two seconds thus spreading my anxiety onto the players. We really have to bite our lip and support the efforts to introduce this new style over the coming weeks if we are to get the results to move us upwards.

I’m not convinced by DA but was heartily sick of watching Hurst’s pragmatic, or dreadfully dull, way of playing so I’m hoping this is a journey worth going on and will personally try and support our players as they try and get a grip on the new approach.

Quoted from Wedidntdidwe

The Stockport commentators were saying that it may look bad at the moment but will pay dividends next season. Unfortunately for us, most of this squad are out of contract or loan players that will provide no benefits whatsoever for us.
We need points rather than pretty football although some people said they'd be happy to lose playing football rather than watching Hurstball.
I believe ( my opinion) that we'd have been in a much better position if we'd given Hurst the January window to sort it out. Was it 12 without a win in non league?
We lost 20 odd points from winning positions under Hurst. How many times have we scored 1st under Artell?
They say be careful what you wish for, this may be one of those moments if he doesn't realise everyone now knows how to play against us.

Hurst had lost 5 on the bounce prior to getting sacked, including against Colchester & Donny in successive games. We’d lost 9 of his final 12 registering just one win in that run. When he was appointed in 20/21, we were 3pts clear of the drop zone & he proceeded to win 1 of his first 14, losing 8, by which time we were bottom & 10pts adrift.

I see people are back to using the term “pragmatic” as a euphemism for “defensive” and “unambitious”. Maybe setting up to not concede & sticking 10 behind the ball all game might work on occasion but you’re unlikely to win many. If your defenders aren’t very good, you’re always likely to concede, so why not play a way that might get you a few more chances at the other end?

I can’t say I’m mad keen on the bloke, but from Artell’s 11 league games we’ve played 6 of the current top 8, top-half Accrington plus Newport and Tranmere who are 5th & 8th in the form table over the last 12 games. Selective use of stats, perhaps, and there’s been some real awful performances in there, but he’s not had the easiest of runs.

Sometimes fortune favours the brave. Hurst always went back to what he knew, keep it solid & hope to nick one, even at home. You need three really good defensive performances like that to get you as many points as one good attacking performance.

20/21 showed that “pragmatism” isn’t always shutting up shop - you need to win games.

You also get 3 points for a win, so if you win 1 and lose 2, or draw 3, it's the same points haul. Artell came in and realised we'd not going to keep many clean sheets, so roll the dice and attack and try to outscore. It hasn't always worked and won't, because when you move players forward, you give openings away, but attacking football is about courage, and with courage comes confidence. If you hoof it, because your first pass isn't succeeding, you don't earn the right to work on the second and third pass. You cannot improve that movement if you aren't giving players the opportunity to experience that in game. By passing it out, they are faced with those situations, and in doing so, they learn how to do to that, and improve that, and what not to do. They develop that know-how and ability.

Every mistake we make stresses out fans, but every time that happens, those players go home, and are probably in bed thinking about it and what they messed up and how they can approach it differently. They'll be reflecting on it, and we need to not take that opportunity away from them.

No one here wants to get relegated, but we're in this excrement because grinding out results weren't working. Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.

IMO playing this style is ok but it has to instilled into the players on the pitch to make quick decisions whether playing out from the back in every instance is on or not . Trying to force it when it’s more likely to result in losing possession when in your own 1/3rd needs to be instantly recognised and a less risky alternative taken . A lot of its success comes down to getting the ball moving quickly from the GK before the opposition has time to reset and press .

What makes me laugh is when teams pass it around at the back then roll it back to the GK who just lumps it . There’s no sense behind it other than it shows the players aren’t capable of the system. And this isn’t a L2 thing , you see it all the way up to CL matches.

As a fan it bores me watching this style . I’d rather see players competing for the ball from kicks , making tackles for the second ball etc . Perhaps I’m a dinosaur but I don’t care tbh !

Quoted from louth_in_the_south

IMO playing this style is ok but it has to instilled into the players on the pitch to make quick decisions whether playing out from the back in every instance is on or not . Trying to force it when it’s more likely to result in losing possession when in your own 1/3rd needs to be instantly recognised and a less risky alternative taken . A lot of its success comes down to getting the ball moving quickly from the GK before the opposition has time to reset and press .

What makes me laugh is when teams pass it around at the back then roll it back to the GK who just lumps it . There’s no sense behind it other than it shows the players aren’t capable of the system. And this isn’t a L2 thing , you see it all the way up to CL matches.

As a fan it bores me watching this style . I’d rather see players competing for the ball from kicks , making tackles for the second ball etc . Perhaps I’m a dinosaur but I don’t care tbh !

Your final paragraph illustrates how different people have a different variation of the "Grimsby way" of playing.

Although I prefer it myself I don't think that many fans here actually like the patience of playing it out from the back, and would prefer a more up and at 'em style which many would say is the "Grimsby way" and more Grimsby grit which excites fans.

In the final analysis I don't mind what the style is as long as it works, and things are often transient/fashionable.

There is only one way Artell will play, which means to a degree he has to coach the fans to accept it besides instilling it into the players so it is a tough ask.

Any worries about the style will melt away if we start winning but will we ever get a chance to find out?

This is no criticism LCL but it’s got nothing to do with it being my perception of the Grimsby Way . It’s just my preference to watching 2 teams battling and using a combination of physicality and skill to attempt to win a game . At the end of the day a manager may want his team to play a certain way and that’s their right as manager. But fans pay to attend to be entertained. I don’t feel entertained watching tippy tappy football , no matter how much the puritans now use possession stats to back up the style . I’m not sure of the figures about how much more % chance of winning this provides in principle but I’m guessing it’s not that much greater.
I’m sure someone on here could provide the figures to shoot me down! In fact I’d love to hear it from Pep or DA as they’re the professionals who are obviously far more knowledgable than a mere fan like me .

Quoted from louth_in_the_south

This is no criticism LCL but it’s got nothing to do with it being my perception of the Grimsby Way . It’s just my preference to watching 2 teams battling and using a combination of physicality and skill to attempt to win a game . At the end of the day a manager may want his team to play a certain way and that’s their right as manager. But fans pay to attend to be entertained. I don’t feel entertained watching tippy tappy football , no matter how much the puritans now use possession stats to back up the style . I’m not sure of the figures about how much more % chance of winning this provides in principle but I’m guessing it’s not that much greater.
I’m sure someone on here could provide the figures to shoot me down! In fact I’d love to hear it from Pep or DA as they’re the professionals who are obviously far more knowledgable than a mere fan like me .

To be fair that is what I was trying to point out that if you polled the fans on what style of play they like to see it would be quite split.

I think Stockwood made a mistake in his Grimsby way comments because it means different things to different fans. We just want a winning team really.

I am getting rather depressed about our current situation and can see nothing but relegation.  Maybe that is because I am depressed - a chicken and egg situation.  But if football and other team sports are a form of non-violent warfare, then our current situation reminds me of this....

Blackadder: Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir?

Darling: How can you possibly know that Blackadder? It’s classified information.

Blackadder: It’s the same plan that we used last time, and the seventeen times before that.

Melchett: E-E-Exactly! And that is what so brilliant about it! We will catch the watchful Hun totally off guard! Doing precisely what we have done eighteen times before is exactly the last thing they’ll expect us to do this time! There is however one small problem.

Blackadder: That everyone always gets slaughtered in the first ten seconds.

Melchett: That’s right! And Field Marshal Haig is worried that this may be depressing the men a tadge. So, he’s looking to find a way to cheer them up.

For, 'The Grimsby Way', I've always considered a team playing passing, attacking football. But then I was raised on football during the Buckley Mk. I and II eras. Back then, we played with a much, much more skilful and passing-based style of play than the vast majority of our opponents who were cloggers, some with better forwards or better defenses than others.

As the Buckley Mk. III era showed, the bigger size and improved fitness of footballers made Buckleyball more difficult, especially for the players he managed to sign.

Hurst has earned himself a place in the GTFC history books for his achievements, but I don't think anybody could claim it was ever particularly pretty to watch.

The question now is whether or not Artell will be able to replicate a similar style of football (i.e. the passing game) which we saw during the Buckley Mk. I and II eras, with the players who he is able to sign. I'm personally happy to see us attempting to pass the ball a lot more, though we obviously need to mix things up somewhat and that comes with repetition and confidence. The question, this season, is whether or not the players we have are capable of passing the ball well enough to make it work. As Artell noted in his pre-Colchester interview, we've done pretty well with the possession-style of play in the away matches since he arrived. The next step is to replicate it at BP when the context is different and teams are trying to hit us on the break more. I'd be OK if we could win enough games this season to keep us just a few points above the drop on the expectation that the squad will be strengthened in the summer to improve our capabilities of playing Artell-ball. (It goes without saying I'd be even happier if we won loads of the remaining games).

As Ska noted, we've played a lot of the top teams since Artell arrived so hopefully we will be more capable of picking up the points we need as we play the teams around us.

Quoted from louth_in_the_south

As a fan it bores me watching this style . I’d rather see players competing for the ball from kicks , making tackles for the second ball etc . Perhaps I’m a dinosaur but I don’t care tbh !

Perhaps rugby union is more your game.

Thinking back to style of play and the Grimsby way had me thinking of the first successful side zi saw at town which was McMenemy’s 71/72 side with basically a 4-2-4 with Chatterley and Boylen in the middle Brace; Gauden & Woodward as your wide men Tees; Lewis and Hickman as options down the middle and that side scored 100 goals. Hard to remember back but obviously Tees got 27 many with his head and no doubt he would have been high with assists flicking them on for Brace and Lewis in particular. Late seventies similar formation with Waters and Bonnyman the central two, Ford; Brolly and Cummings out wide and Kilmore and Drinkell down the middle.

Looking back those were my most enjoyable years watching town ( more so than the Buckley era) and maybe, as Louth in the South, said we are dinosaurs football wise. But in those days there was such a mixture of styles but you needed a good physical presence throughout the team but particularly your spine. Wide players got up and down but contributed considerably to the goal scoring and the midfield was a mixture of physical battles and skilful passing.

Thing was both these team were very good at it particularly the late seventies team but the man who probably started that ball rolling was Tom Casey who was unluckily sacked before his hard work came to fruition via Newman and Kerr.

Trouble is now if we don’t plat Artell ball where do we go as we lack physicality throughout the team and our midfield don’t look like they are up for a bruising battle to take control of this area. Vernam is the only wide player who looks capable of beating his man and non of the wide players really put a shift in.

Anyway I’ll stop now as the more I think about our current squad the more concerned I feel so let’s hope plan A bloody well work’s starting Saturday.

The major problem we have is that the midfielders don't show for the ball or trust themselves. You can immediately see the gap left by Conteh who did both. Recruitment wise that is what we need.

I'm a bit confused about why people think we will start accruing loads of points if we try to dig in and not play football. The evidence doesn't really back that up.

Quoted from CSLM

The major problem we have is that the midfielders don't show for the ball or trust themselves. You can immediately see the gap left by Conteh who did both. Recruitment wise that is what we need.

I'm a bit confused about why people think we will start accruing loads of points if we try to dig in and not play football. The evidence doesn't really back that up.

I agree that Conteh is a big loss and Thompson is his replacement and looked nothing like good enough last week, but apparently was at Accrington. I just don’t see enough creativity front to back, plenty of individual talent but not the gel to bring it all together.

I was really enthused when we beat Crewe but that seems a very long time ago.

Quoted from MarinerMal

Perhaps rugby union is more your game.

No it’s shi.te

Thompson filled Contehs roll very well against Accrington, but didn’t manage it against Stockport. Let’s not write him off before we play the likes of Doncaster…….

Thompson is a different sort of player to Conteh though. Nowhere near as comfortable on the ball but a savvier battler who in theory won't leave the defenders as exposed as Conteh did at times. The problem is that the style of play we're adopting needs that Conteh outlet.

Quoted from Son of Cod

Thompson is a different sort of player to Conteh though. Nowhere near as comfortable on the ball but a savvier battler who in theory won't leave the defenders as exposed as Conteh did at times. The problem is that the style of play we're adopting needs that Conteh outlet.

So who do we play through from the back? It’s clear he doesn’t trust Hunt and the thought of using Green in that role scares the living bejesus out of me.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

So who do we play through from the back? It’s clear he doesn’t trust Hunt and the thought of using Green in that role scares the living bejesus out of me.

Yeah that's a big question that needs addressing that I suspect we're hoping we get away with for the time being. Regarding Hunt, did you listen to Pearson's pre-match? Said he's been out injured and is back in contention. Went beyond that and said no problems with his attitude in training too.

As regards how do we adapt our style play I'd say that one way we could help ourselves is to not be so painfully predictable, just some variation in play would be good. There was a moment against Stockport were the keeper came to collect it, Hume went running forward signalling for a ball to go on an immediate attack with. Instead, to everyone's frustration, the keeper held on to it, everybody got in their usual positions and he rolled it to a CB to start tapping around with it etc.

I can't for the life of me see why, even if you were going to play a passing out from the back style you would want to refuse opportunities to attack like that when you're behind.

Whether that's a tactical instruction from DA or an unwillingness to try something from Cartwright I see that as a weakness in us that's unjustifiable.

Quoted from toontown

As regards how do we adapt our style play I'd say that one way we could help ourselves is to not be so painfully predictable, just some variation in play would be good. There was a moment against Stockport were the keeper came to collect it, Hume went running forward signalling for a ball to go on an immediate attack with. Instead, to everyone's frustration, the keeper held on to it, everybody got in their usual positions and he rolled it to a CB to start tapping around with it etc.

I can't for the life of me see why, even if you were going to play a passing out from the back style you would want to refuse opportunities to attack like that when you're behind.

Whether that's a tactical instruction from DA or an unwillingness to try something from Cartwright I see that as a weakness in us that's unjustifiable.

He probably wasn't ready, and it does happen. Often runs are missed, and you go back and do it again. You see what happened for their goal when the GK tries to play a pass not on. Cartwright was probably a little scarred by the goal, and it's perfectly understandable.

With time, they get better at understanding each other and what they'll do. 1 missed opportunity doesn't mean you cannot do something or don't try.

It's perfectly justifiable. No player has 100% pass rate, and errors and mistakes is part of the game. It's making sure the positives outweigh the negatives. It's a game played by humans, not robots.

Also, you need to get the passing basics down and confidence with it before you start throwing in variation. They haven't been doing this a long time.

It’s the slim pickings of quality that we have here for next season that worries me, and the quality of those already contracted with us (at the moment) that could/would stay. It’s hard to make a decent case, aside from half a dozen at best, that would fill you with any hope again in this league again next term.

Results are needed, and sooner rather than later. The pressure needs to be put on other teams and not on our players but, when things don’t work, everything gets questioned.

Quoted from WOZOFGRIMSBY

It’s the slim pickings of quality that we have here for next season that worries me, and the quality of those already contracted with us (at the moment) that could/would stay. It’s hard to make a decent case, aside from half a dozen at best, that would fill you with any hope again in this league again next term.

Results are needed, and sooner rather than later. The pressure needs to be put on other teams and not on our players but, when things don’t work, everything gets questioned.

Well, the less quality we have here that expire at the end of the season give us extra budget to replace with better. Obviously it won't be a full refresh as some under contract players may not be easy to ship off, but a good summer transfer window will help more than a January one. I'm more concerned about getting it right this season. Summer will be childs play compared to the challenge we have right now.