Premier League bail out for EFL

According to tomorrow’s Daily Telegraph, they’ve agreed a 250 million bail out to EFL subject to some post Brexit conditions on overseas players.

Some will say about time, but it’s got to be good news.

Somehow I doubt that will be shared out as £3,472,222.22 each.

Quoted from Barrattstander

Somehow I doubt that will be shared out as £3,472,222.22 each.

Yeah probably something like this

Champ - 60%
LG1 - 30%
LG2 - 10%

Premier League clubs are resigned to having to bail out the English Football League - but with strings attached.

Members of the world’s richest league are expected to impose strict conditions on a support package worth up to £250 million to their lower-league counterparts.

They are prepared to make a take-it-or-leave-it offer after the Government made clear it would not be rescuing the professional game from collapse following the coronavirus crisis.

Premier League clubs had been holding off agreeing to underwrite losses of up to £22m a month being posted by EFL sides until after the planned return of crowds to the game a week today, in the hope both competitions could start generating some ticket revenue.

But Boris Johnson destroyed those plans on Tuesday by announcing a new wave of lockdown restrictions that could force professional and semi-professional football behind closed doors for another six months.

The Prime Minister and his cabinet are determined to hold the Premier League to one of the conditions of the competition resuming this summer in Project Restart after football was suspended in March, which was its clubs supporting the wider football family.

Those clubs, who have already made some contribution to that effect despite losing millions of pounds a week themselves, are now reluctantly ready to go further by bailing out the lower leagues.

However, any rescue package is likely to be limited to underwriting lost gate receipts, with EFL clubs needing to provide clear evidence to that effect.

Premier League clubs have no intention of bailing out teams already at risk of going bust before the pandemic due to poor ownership or other self-inflicted issues.

The league also wants the EFL to agree to support some of its own strategic objectives in exchange for the cash, including post-Brexit quotas on overseas players and on its yet-to-be-agreed curtailment rules.

EFL chairman Rick Parry has been resisting these latter conditions during negotiations over a rescue package but may be forced to accept them if he wants the cash, with Government sources telling The Daily Telegraph it has no intention of dictating what terms are applied to any bailout.

The EFL has been exploring taking out a commercial loan but clubs have told The Telegraph that borrowing money would simply delay their demise.

Parry has already said teams could go bust by Christmas and he reiterated the urgency of a bailout on Wednesday in a statement questioning the Government’s decision to scrap the return of fans.

“Of course we recognise that the UK is facing a significant public health crisis and that sport has to play its part in helping the Government manage the spread of the virus at this difficult time,” he said.

“This is why over many months we have helped the Government devise, refine and pilot stringent stadium protocols designed to keep supporters safe. Staging professional football matches is one of the most heavily regulated areas of crowd management and any supporters attending EFL fixtures, in vastly reduced numbers, would have been required to adhere to social distancing and the rule of six.

“Therefore we are deeply frustrated that we will not be able to continue this work and, in doing so, gather the evidence to show that crowds can return safely to football and become an important financial lifeline for our clubs. Therefore, as a matter of urgency we now need to understand what the Government’s roadmap is for getting supporters back into stadiums as soon as it is deemed safe to do so.

“With extended measures introduced, it is imperative that the financial issues facing our clubs are addressed quickly. EFL clubs lost £50m last season as a result of playing matches behind closed doors or curtailing the season and stand to lose a further £200m in 2020/21 should we be required to play the whole season without supporters in grounds.

"I am encouraged that the Government has recognised the need for urgent financial assistance for sport and discussions will continue with DCMS and the Premier League.”

Problem for me being that when you go cap in hand to the Squire, there's always a price to pay...

Quoted from ginnywings

Problem for me being that when you go cap in hand to the Squire, there's always a price to pay...

B Teams....................

Quoted from ginnywings

Problem for me being that when you go cap in hand to the Squire, there's always a price to pay...

Which should worry us all in my opinion. Under normal circumstances Football is always evolving of course, always has done always will. God knows what some of our predecessors would think of how the game is these days for all of the hyperbole that comes with the PL.

But with the big clubs acting like they have "always been at the top" these days I fear for the future of the pyramid structure as we currently know it. Especially if they now are collectively "owed one" by the FL.  

Going cap in hand to the premier league will come at a cost that goes beyond borrowing a few quid.

This will only serve to push the agenda of B teams further among other things me thinks. It’s also naive of lower league clubs to assume, simply because there’s cash at the top that they should bail us out.

I'm still not convinced the Premier League, or its members, are that bothered about the B Team agenda.  That was more Shaun Harvey and Greg Dyke trying to impress them wasn't it?  Perhaps a little bit more deflecting from their failings on the behalf of Dyke and the FA.

A B Team format does relatively little for the Premier League clubs other than giving them fixtures to use their Under 23's.  Something I'm sure they can already do as part of the Premier League 2 and/or loans which are already very successful.  With the shortened season and looming winter breaks, the fixture congestion is a worry for a lot of clubs so I don't see them wanting extra games.

The cost of accepting the bail out will most likely be falling in line when it comes to voting against foreign player restrictions.  Personally, I couldn't care less about this.  If that's what the Premier League, which is already so far devoid of any relationship with the common football fan, want to do...so be it.

Long term it may be to the detriment of the national side, but if push comes to shove I'd take a poor England side if it meant having a Football League pyramid.

Quoted from diehardmariner

I'm still not convinced the Premier League, or its members, are that bothered about the B Team agenda.  That was more Shaun Harvey and Greg Dyke trying to impress them wasn't it?  Perhaps a little bit more deflecting from their failings on the behalf of Dyke and the FA.

A B Team format does relatively little for the Premier League clubs other than giving them fixtures to use their Under 23's.  Something I'm sure they can already do as part of the Premier League 2 and/or loans which are already very successful.  With the shortened season and looming winter breaks, the fixture congestion is a worry for a lot of clubs so I don't see them wanting extra games.

The cost of accepting the bail out will most likely be falling in line when it comes to voting against foreign player restrictions.  Personally, I couldn't care less about this.  If that's what the Premier League, which is already so far devoid of any relationship with the common football fan, want to do...so be it.

Long term it may be to the detriment of the national side, but if push comes to shove I'd take a poor England side if it meant having a Football League pyramid.

It's not about extra games, it's about extra teams. Do you want to be playing against Man Utd B in League 2? There is a real concern that teams may go to the wall; Macclesfield already have, and who will fill those spaces?

It's the mother of all benign loans, but the clubs will have to take it. Wonder what the National League will do? Will the EFL toss them a few scraps?

They should hand out the cash with no strings whatsoever because the PL owes EFL clubs for keeping grassroots football going for the past 20odd years while they and their greasy broadcaster pals and seedy investors have been coining it in by signing average tat players from abroad and setting up their selfish deals to spread the income global.

What we may think of the EFL itself does not matter. The PL has bags of dirty cash stashed and it’s time they unloaded some in recognition of what football is really about.

Every PL exec should also be made to read, inwardly digest and learn every word of Gregor Robertson’s Times article.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

They should hand out the cash with no strings whatsoever because the PL owes EFL clubs for keeping grassroots football going for the past 20odd years while they and their greasy broadcaster pals and seedy investors have been coining it in by signing average tat players from abroad and setting up their selfish deals to spread the income global.

What we may think of the EFL itself does not matter. The PL has bags of dirty cash stashed and it’s time they unloaded some in recognition of what football is really about.

Every PL exec should also be made to read, inwardly digest and learn every word of Gregor Robertson’s Times article.

This leaves me torn.  Firstly, there are clubs, particularly in The Championship, who, as the article earlier rightly points out, cannot be bailed out because of their own idiocy.

Secondly, this B Team thing may be us being paranoid, but the prospect scares and repulses me.

Thirdly, will the PL clubs demand a further change on how they poach the best youngsters from up and down the country?  The sale of these types of players are our lifeblood, and I do not trust the PL to 'do the right thing'.

My preference, without a doubt, would be to ride this season out, as a club take the financial hit that'll need servicing over the coming years, and survive that way.  And, completely selfishly, watch a handful of other clubs fall around us.  Some will find that latter bit distasteful, but sometimes there are those that just simply are not viable in this day and age.  I don't think we're one of them, so to hamstring us with debt from the PL when we could possibly get by without it would mean we are looked down on by the big boys forever more, and I really hate that.

If some clubs fall by the wayside, there is ALWAYS someone better run in non-league who can take their place, always.

To uphold the fair play finance rules then the fairest way to divvy out any money would be to give each club a settlement around their lost income based on the historic income ?

So for us for example no of lost home games x average gate receipt , commercial advertising sponsors lost income, matchday sales etc.......

All those numbers are known by every club and must be in their accounts/ books so should be readily available. You can argue +/- percentages based on recent upturn or downturn but overall each club would be compensated for its actual loss making it a more equal approach.

Quoted from Heisenberg

This leaves me torn.  Firstly, there are clubs, particularly in The Championship, who, as the article earlier rightly points out, cannot be bailed out because of their own idiocy.

Secondly, this B Team thing may be us being paranoid, but the prospect scares and repulses me.

Thirdly, will the PL clubs demand a further change on how they poach the best youngsters from up and down the country?  The sale of these types of players are our lifeblood, and I do not trust the PL to 'do the right thing'.

My preference, without a doubt, would be to ride this season out, as a club take the financial hit that'll need servicing over the coming years, and survive that way.  And, completely selfishly, watch a handful of other clubs fall around us.  Some will find that latter bit distasteful, but sometimes there are those that just simply are not viable in this day and age.  I don't think we're one of them, so to hamstring us with debt from the PL when we could possibly get by without it would mean we are looked down on by the big boys forever more, and I really hate that.

If some clubs fall by the wayside, there is ALWAYS someone better run in non-league who can take their place, always.

I’m not naive. The PL will always want to have chains not strings attached to any loans or bail outs. When you have spent 20-30 years conning punters into spending hard earned cash to support what is basically a money laundering operation, you are not going to suddenly become Santa Claus. The PL exists to make money, nothing else. It has no interest in English football per se only in the fact that English clubs have a captive following.

The deal will be a tiny amount for L2 and a lot for the big Championship sides. Take it and go back for more later.

Quoted from ginnywings

It's not about extra games, it's about extra teams. Do you want to be playing against Man Utd B in League 2? There is a real concern that teams may go to the wall; Macclesfield already have, and who will fill those spaces?

Again though, even with an extra team (it wouldn't be an extra team, it's just a glorified reserve team), what is the benefit to the likes of Manchester United if they've got their kids playing in League Two as opposed to against Liverpool's Under 23's?  If they want their players to get that nitty, gritty experience of playing at the lower levels there's a loan market which they utilise quite well, in the case of someone like Chelsea to a tidy profit as well.

The big concern for the Premier League clubs, especially the bigger boys, is around restrictions on signing foreign players in the brave new post-Brexit world.  The likes of Man City are already attempting to combat this with clubs around the world coming under their wider umbrella, I fully expect others to follow suit too.  It's here where I think they'll demand EFL in return for a bail-out, very much a 'you scratch my back, I'll feed you a crumb' scenario.  Granting B Teams into League Two serves absolutely benefit to the clubs at the top of the table.

With regards who replaces those clubs that go to the wall?  Well, the cynic in me thinks that'll present an opportunity to cap relegation from the Premier League.

Spot on

Quoted from moosey_club

To uphold the fair play finance rules then the fairest way to divvy out any money would be to give each club a settlement around their lost income based on the historic income ?

So for us for example no of lost home games x average gate receipt , commercial advertising sponsors lost income, matchday sales etc.......

All those numbers are known by every club and must be in their accounts/ books so should be readily available. You can argue +/- percentages based on recent upturn or downturn but overall each club would be compensated for its actual loss making it a more equal approach.

That's basically what the article says will happen.

What it doesn't say is whether it's a loan or a 'gift'. Lots of comments about it being a loan in here, but I thought it was a donation to keep clubs going.

I don't think B teams can be introduced without a vote among clubs, so it's not going to happen.

Quoted from Meza

Yeah probably something like this

Champ - 60%
LG1 - 30%
LG2 - 10%

Even just 10% for L2 would be 25 million and 24 clubs to share it out to.

Considering Mr Day said we would lose an extra 250000 then a million quid would nicely cover that.....and some!

Quoted from diehardmariner

Again though, even with an extra team (it wouldn't be an extra team, it's just a glorified reserve team), what is the benefit to the likes of Manchester United if they've got their kids playing in League Two as opposed to against Liverpool's Under 23's?  If they want their players to get that nitty, gritty experience of playing at the lower levels there's a loan market which they utilise quite well, in the case of someone like Chelsea to a tidy profit as well.

The big concern for the Premier League clubs, especially the bigger boys, is around restrictions on signing foreign players in the brave new post-Brexit world.  The likes of Man City are already attempting to combat this with clubs around the world coming under their wider umbrella, I fully expect others to follow suit too.  It's here where I think they'll demand EFL in return for a bail-out, very much a 'you scratch my back, I'll feed you a crumb' scenario.  Granting B Teams into League Two serves absolutely benefit to the clubs at the top of the table.

With regards who replaces those clubs that go to the wall?  Well, the cynic in me thinks that'll present an opportunity to cap relegation from the Premier League.

I think if they can get feeder clubs or B teams into the football pyramid, they will. It already happens in other countries and if there is a way of shoehorning them in here I think they will take it. The trouble with big, powerful organisations is that they tend to want to get bigger and more powerful.

It's been said that it wouldn't happen because it would have to be voted in by lower league clubs, but if those lower league clubs are on the verge of bankruptcy, or worse, have already gone, then it becomes easier for the rich and mighty clubs to get their way. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

I hope you're right but they have already managed to get their u23's into a cup competition, which i saw at the time as the thin end of the wedge. They may use this to hammer that wedge just a little further.

It was the EFL and FA who wanted that though, the Under 23 teams in the CheckaTrade.  I don't recall ever seeing anyone from the PL begging to be allowed into it.

Greg Dyke and his farce of an FA commission, that had the likes of Rio Ferdinand and other ex-professionals so far removed from the game, decided that in the wake of the ever failing national side, the best way to address it was to make sure Everton Under 23's played in front of 373 people at Accrington's ground.  

It was a knee-jerk reaction to previous years and decades of bad coaching, poor infrastructure, a lack of direction and philosophy in the English game.  What they failed to realise was that the aforementioned issues had already been addressed, within their own bloody organisation, but would naturally take a bit of time to bear any fruit.

Shaun Harvey, as the head of the EFL, lapped it up and saw it as the perfect opportunity to shimmy himself into position for his next job either at the FA or the Premier League and ran with it.  

The biggest problem wasn't the fierce opposition from the clubs and supporters (sadly the amount of EFL money chucked at it negated that threat), it was the fact that no-one in the Premier League gave a excrement.  It's not the job of the Premier League to develop players for England.  Their interest is that of their members.  The members are solely focused on achieving as much success as possible and in some cases generating as much money as possible.  Shoe horning Under 23 teams into the league pyramid will do nothing to aid either of those objectives.

It works in other countries because of how their leagues are set-up.  Spain for example has nowhere near the standard that we have at our level.  If the likes of Real Madrid or Barcelona loaned a player out to a fourth tier club it would be akin to Manchester United loaning players out to Cleethorpes Town.  

Each year the EFL send an invite out to Academy Clubs.  This is the first season that Liverpool and Manchester United have bothered to accept.  They (as the Premier League) didn't ask for it and they don't appear to have a real appetite for it either.

Don't get me wrong, the Premier League are absolute shits and they'll milk this bail-out to completely suit their needs.  But it won't be to force Under 23 teams into the pyramid or start League 3.  It'll be something, at least in their eyes, much bigger.

The Mirror today on "conditions"

Any potential bail out offer would have to be voted on by Premier League clubs and it must be stressed that the conditions are the view of some clubs rather than all but there are some influential voices insisting they must get guarantees before any proposal is agreed.

A source at a Championship club said it was effectively Premier League teams trying to turn the top flight into a “closed shop” with the threat of relegation removed.

Relegation became a huge issue when the Premier League was suspended last season with clubs railing against it but now discussions on what happens in the event of curtailment are back on the agenda - and the threat could be removed.

They also believe the Prem clubs want to impose a strict wage cap at Championship level so it would be harder for clubs to break into the elite.

This, in my opinion, is far bigger than shoehorning Under 23 sides into the football pyramid.

You can almost see it happening now:

• First muting of cancelling relegation in the event of a curtailed season, 'cos y'know it's not really fair to do it on PPG
  
• Oh, actually we don't want to do relegation this year because y'know it's not really fair to do it when some teams have had to cram 3 games into a week.  Oh, go on.  We did give you those crumbs remember.
  
• Thinking about it, none of our members really want to run the risk of relegation and ummm, errr in the interest of the national game it's probably best if the annual strugglers like West Ham can feel comfortable that they can blood youngsters in the Premier League without worrying about relegation...So, errr yeah.  No more relegation/promotion. But don't forget those crumbs we gave you.
  
• Hi, hope you're well....collectively we've decided that it's not really fair that advancement into our league is always closed off but in the absence of a dedicated league system like the one that you've got, we thought it made sense if we invited selected clubs based on some strict criteria.  In no way is it reflective of the size of the fanbase and potential TV draw but we thought it might be nice if Sunderland, Cardiff, Sheffield Wednesday and Whichever 'sleeping giant' is currently outside the top flight wanted to join us.  Relegation?  Oh, did you forget those crumbs again?
  

Give it a few years...

• Actually, we've got a problem in that the bigger teams in our league are now hopping off to join a European Super League so our TV power is significantly less than it was before....any chance we can come back?
  

intercourse 'em.  Absolutely intercourse 'em.

Quoted from diehardmariner

This, in my opinion, is far bigger than shoehorning Under 23 sides into the football pyramid.

You can almost see it happening now:

• First muting of cancelling relegation in the event of a curtailed season, 'cos y'know it's not really fair to do it on PPG
  
• Oh, actually we don't want to do relegation this year because y'know it's not really fair to do it when some teams have had to cram 3 games into a week.  Oh, go on.  We did give you those crumbs remember.
  
• Thinking about it, none of our members really want to run the risk of relegation and ummm, errr in the interest of the national game it's probably best if the annual strugglers like West Ham can feel comfortable that they can blood youngsters in the Premier League without worrying about relegation...So, errr yeah.  No more relegation/promotion. But don't forget those crumbs we gave you.
  
• Hi, hope you're well....collectively we've decided that it's not really fair that advancement into our league is always closed off but in the absence of a dedicated league system like the one that you've got, we thought it made sense if we invited selected clubs based on some strict criteria.  In no way is it reflective of the size of the fanbase and potential TV draw but we thought it might be nice if Sunderland, Cardiff, Sheffield Wednesday and Whichever 'sleeping giant' is currently outside the top flight wanted to join us.  Relegation?  Oh, did you forget those crumbs again?
  

Give it a few years...

• Actually, we've got a problem in that the bigger teams in our league are now hopping off to join a European Super League so our TV power is significantly less than it was before....any chance we can come back?
  

intercourse 'em.  Absolutely intercourse 'em.

Agreed. I thought they would want something for their money, probably centred around second teams, but this is even worse than I thought.

I see David Ross is involved in the discussions. Don't know if that is a good or bad thing.

What they are also saying is why should they bail out teams like Exeter when they are due 4mill from Watkins sale.  In a way I get that.  They then said they don't want to punish teams who have tried to do wage cuts like what we did with covid in contracts.  The article was on BBC website.

Quoted from ginnywings

Agreed. I thought they would want something for their money, probably centred around second teams, but this is even worse than I thought.

I see David Ross is involved in the discussions. Don't know if that is a good or bad thing.

I definitely think it's more direct and a hell of a lot more selfish.

I suppose the definition of worse depends on how you're looking at it.  For a club like Town, with realistically little to no chance of ever finding themselves in a position of getting promoted to the Premier League, I can't imagine it'll have any direct impact at all.

What we may see over time is less of this dribble down of money from the Premier League to 'help' the Football League clubs.  But in return if they cut this off, it's the perfect opportunity to push back and remove them from cup competitions.  I'm sure the likes of Liverpool, Manchester City etc. won't be that bothered about not featuring in the League Cup but the FA Cup is a different matter, it still holds significance for a lot of fans.  Both competitions also hold European places, which become more important as that Top 4/6 becomes a Top 8/10.

My absolute belief is that within 5/6 years City, United, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool and Chelsea will be in a European Super League.  UEFA is dying a slow and painful death.  They can try to remain relevant with their extended European formats but they're done for.  The Man City ruling this summer highlighted that they have no real power and the clubs lord it over them.  

Once this league is established there will then be an appetite for a second tier.  For those clubs with huge TV audiences but perhaps not at the level of Bayern, Liverpool et al.  The likes of Rangers, Celtic, Everton, Leeds...  Of course they'll all go running over because it's more money and the TV market will have dried up, Burnley V Wolves isn't a big drawer in any corner of the globe so no market will pay top whack for it.  

The Football League itself has an opportunity here to reinvent itself as the competition in this country.  Unfortunately I doubt they'll take it as they're too busy shimmying up to the Premier League.  But it has to stop being reliant on crumbs from the top, overspending to reach the top flight and on parachute payments for clubs that overspend unsuccessfully to stay in the top flight.  Very, very strict governance is needed from the Football League in the next few years...I'll not hold my breath on it happening.

I would not be as pessimistic as some posters.

Take away promotion / relegation from any division and what is the point? Fans won't watch and eventually the revenues fall and the game disintegrates. Watching Aston Villa v West Ham on an endless loop with nothing to play for would soon lose its appeal.

There are too many giants (thankfully) not residing in the Premier League so you can imagine the uproar if any door back to the promised land was slammed shut.

And just to give you an example of how utterly useless the EFL are...

https://www.theguardian.com/fo.....chelsea-fourth-round

Leyton Orient do the morally right and safe thing, they accept the offer from Spurs to give their squad testing and subsequently cancel the game.  Yet they're punished by getting booted out of the competition.

West Ham on the other hand, players and manager test positive.  They play the competition (against a side that rejected the offer to have free testing) and put everyone at further risk.

Absolute jokes.  Forget them having the opportunity to reinvent themselves, this lot couldn't wipe their own bottom without asking the big boys if it was ok to do so.

In about 30 years time there will be relegation from the Prem League.  All the clubs below them will have ceased to exist.  Prem clubs will not want to be relegated to an amateur Sunday league.

The Prem should be careful what they wish for.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

I would not be as pessimistic as some posters.

Take away promotion / relegation from any division and what is the point? Fans won't watch and eventually the revenues fall and the game disintegrates. Watching Aston Villa v West Ham on an endless loop with nothing to play for would soon lose its appeal.

There are too many giants (thankfully) not residing in the Premier League so you can imagine the uproar if any door back to the promised land was slammed shut.

You could see them arguing for 2 relegation places though, and we can't criticise too much as that's what our division has!

Quoted from GrimRob

You could see them arguing for 2 relegation places though, and we can't criticise too much as that's what our division has!

Yes I am sure they would argue for things to go in their favour, but I think promotion and relegation will always be a part of football including the top flight.

Who would watch, say, Championship football knowing they could never reach the PL or indeed have the excitement of avoiding a relegation battle?

Lets put it this way - if any division is a closed shop that will be the day I stop watching any type of pro football after more than 60 years!

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Yes I am sure they would argue for things to go in their favour, but I think promotion and relegation will always be a part of football including the top flight.

Who would watch, say, Championship football knowing they could never reach the PL or indeed have the excitement of avoiding a relegation battle?

Lets put it this way - if any division is a closed shop that will be the day I stop watching any type of pro football after more than 60 years!

100%. No matter how shít Town are at any point in time, there’s always the idea that one day, one day we could be mixing it in the top flight. In theory, there is nothing stopping us from winning the Premier League. From winning the Champions League. The odds are almost impossibly small, and yet it’s possible.

In 1998, we found ourselves a division above Man City. In 1998 we beat Bournemouth at Wembley. In 2016 we found ourselves finally dragging ourselves out of the cesspit of non-league. That same year, Leicester City won the Premier League. Fortunes can, and do change.

Unpredictable things happen in football. That’s the beauty of it. Of course, the idea of Town ever getting close to the top flight, let alone Europe, is fanciful. The point is, it’s ‘possible’. Take that away, and you kill the spirit of lower league football.

If we accept a closed shop at the top level we don’t save the football league, we merely put it on palliative care.

Just listened to an interview with Rick Parry on the wireless and he talked through some interesting stuff and despite the continuous ineptitude of the organisation he heads he seemed to understand the bigger picture.

He didn’t say it but eluded to the Championship being the biggest problem/concern with over 100% of gate receipts going on players wages. A collective number but a telling stat!

He also spoke about clubs that are owner funded in that on a regular basis one Director pays the bills and they are dependent on that individuals good will and deep pockets.

We’ve all been p1ssed off at various times about the evident lack of investment and penny pinching but ironically the “self sufficiency” legacy that JF has given us may just see us through.

The main things I came away with was....

- This will be the trigger to the Prem taking the Championship as their 2nd tier, this could be the only route of survival for the professional pyramid.

- In the context of the money Boris is throwing around it’s a relatively small amount to save L1 & L2, but these clubs are important to communities and history tells us the Tories don’t give a fcuk about that.

- The government has delayed supporters coming back as they’ve only got last week’s trials to go on, which means this is going to be a long haul.

Good article but the main thing that I was left with is day by day clubs at all levels of the EFL and below are buggered.

every top flight club will want to join a European super league that will be much Akin to how the NFL is. Clubs ‘could’ become franchises and the soul and The heart of the the game Is lost. For every Man Utd v Liverpool or real v Barca there is a Brighton v Burnley or elche v Cadiz. The later games may not Be  important to many but, it is to the supporters of the clubs and those that are employed by the club.

Until a ‘supporter’ has experienced the lows of supporting a club, they can’t dream about the highs that can be achieved.

If you get rid of relegation you have to invent a (usually elaborate) post season to keep the interest of at least some fans until the last few weeks of the season.

I can't see them trying to remove relegation. If they do then at least 10 clubs have nothing to play for. No way do Sky want a closed shop where the only interest is who is better out of man city and Liverpool, then which of the other giants scrapes into the top 4.

If there's one thing the premier league has excelled at, it's been selling the product. No relegation would take away a large part of the interest in their product

I just wonder if the Prem would save L1 and L2 in return for absorbing the Championship as their 2nd tier?

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

They should hand out the cash with no strings whatsoever because the PL owes EFL clubs for keeping grassroots football going for the past 20odd years while they and their greasy broadcaster pals and seedy investors have been coining it in by signing average tat players from abroad and setting up their selfish deals to spread the income global.

What we may think of the EFL itself does not matter. The PL has bags of dirty cash stashed and it’s time they unloaded some in recognition of what football is really about.

Every PL exec should also be made to read, inwardly digest and learn every word of Gregor Robertson’s Times article.

Never saw you as a socialist RRFC 😂

Quoted from diehardmariner

And just to give you an example of how utterly useless the EFL are...

https://www.theguardian.com/fo.....chelsea-fourth-round

Leyton Orient do the morally right and safe thing, they accept the offer from Spurs to give their squad testing and subsequently cancel the game.  Yet they're punished by getting booted out of the competition.

West Ham on the other hand, players and manager test positive.  They play the competition (against a side that rejected the offer to have free testing) and put everyone at further risk.

Absolute jokes.  Forget them having the opportunity to reinvent themselves, this lot couldn't wipe their own bottom without asking the big boys if it was ok to do so.

And then they’d wipe it with the hand that didn’t have the toilet paper

Quoted from Poojah

If we accept a closed shop at the top level we don’t save the football league, we merely put it on palliative care.

Or is it an opportunity to cut away the cancer of the modern game?

I'm an absolute purist.  If I had my way it would all be one league system in this country, all under one ruling body.  The Champions go into the Champions Cup and the winners of the cups go into the Cup Winners Cups.  That's it.  It's silly having half your top flight playing in European competition.

But I'm also a realist in that those at the highest echelons of the English game are so far removed from our level now that I think it's harmful to the likes of Town to be under that same (very loose) umbrella.  

At no point do I think it will happen because the EFL are clinging on for dear life to the big boys, but I would (Keegan style) love it if they and the FA had the balls to turn round and say 'right, intercourse off then.  This is the English league system now and we'll reform it accordingly'.   Take the TV money out of it, take the commercial aspects out of it.  I personally think our game would be a lot better off in the long run without the noose around the neck that is the Premier League and their greed.

No help  - no hope

The PL is holding out for an agreement on signing foreign youngsters post brexit. They want dispensation to keep signing 18-21 year olds from abroad. The EFL is naturally enough against this because post brexit the EFL and National League clubs will have a better chance of making some cash from transfer fees.

Pure blackmail by the PL.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

The PL is holding out for an agreement on signing foreign youngsters post brexit. They want dispensation to keep signing 18-21 year olds from abroad. The EFL is naturally enough against this because post brexit the EFL and National League clubs will have a better chance of making some cash from transfer fees.

Pure blackmail by the PL.

The premier league want to sign the best players to maintain their status as the best league in the world and have the biggest income as a result. I don't really see the problem, there's hardly any british players in that league anyway.

Quoted from pen penfras

The premier league want to sign the best players to maintain their status as the best league in the world and have the biggest income as a result. I don't really see the problem, there's hardly any british players in that league anyway.

The problem is partly that the PL will not agree to helping the EFL clubs without dispensation to sign foreign 18-21 year olds. Maybe those signings are one reason why there are so few British players in the PL but the main issue here is the long term ongoing support for the EFL clubs in the form of transfer fees.

I’m of the mind that the PL should help out a bit but it shouldn’t be fully on their shoulders. It wouldn’t have to be either if the government made the logical move and allowed fans back in, they’re just too bone idle to make it work.

So all these right wing politicians who keep banging on about protecting ‘our’ culture, what exactly are they doing to protect the national sport, major employer and community hub? Naff all!

Bo Jo could cut out the middle man and go straight to the broadcasters.

Even they’d get it that serving up the same 20 teams in a non relegation closed shop would get a bit boring mid/long term.

I don’t think this is about getting fans back. It is about the PL using the situation to get something it has always wanted - even greater cut off between its finances and admin from the rest of the English game. It is part of the internationalising of the PL as a product. This is from today’s Times.


The Premier League, however, wants a global free market from 18 upwards, claiming it is at a disadvantage because it can no longer compete with the leading European clubs in the pursuit of 16 and 17-year-olds. It does not want any criteria, such as international caps, transfer fees or wages that govern the existing GBE system.

The concern, of course, is that the Premier League clubs would then be able to flood their academies with lots of 18-21 year olds rather than develop English players or buy from the EFL.

In January Rick Parry, the EFL chairman, said that Brexit changes should mean more opportunities for young English players at clubs in the Championship, League One and League Two.

“Football is gradually waking up to the fact that new rules will apply, not least in terms of the Fifa rules with under-18s. That’s going to be a major change, work permits for European players,” Parry said.

“The positive for the EFL is we can offer a pathway for young English players, we are well placed for that be it through an extension of the loan system or whatever it might be. It is a positive opportunity for us.”

A Premier League spokesperson and the FA declined to comment.

Quoted from diehardmariner

I'm an absolute purist.  If I had my way it would all be one league system in this country, all under one ruling body.  The Champions go into the Champions Cup and the winners of the cups go into the Cup Winners Cups.  That's it.  It's silly having half your top flight playing in European competition.

Don't forget the Inter City Fairs Cup

I'm with diehardmariner on this whole issue.

I think we can all see what the Premier League is doing; what it wants; where it wants to be. It's changed the face of the game and the way it's governed means it's hard for fans of clubs at our level to identify with it.

Poojah made a great comment along the lines of possibility. The route to the top still exists, and that's enough.

But quite honestly, because we're so far detached from the likes of Liverpool, Manu and Man City, they can have their European super league as far as I'm concerned. They can have their little jerk circle.

Because to me, what matters is playing in a football league system that's honest and straightforward. Let the Prem disappear up their own arses. We'll remain, restructure what we've got, work to rules that don't encourage teams to overspend and get back to the days when the best team in the land isn't the one that's the richest.

Obviously that's not going to happen, but that's the dream. Reinvent the old-fashioned four-tier league, and cut the greedy gits from it. So what if it's not all over the TV screens? I want to be able to go to the matches.

Quoted from RichMariner

I'm with diehardmariner on this whole issue.

I think we can all see what the Premier League is doing; what it wants; where it wants to be. It's changed the face of the game and the way it's governed means it's hard for fans of clubs at our level to identify with it.

Poojah made a great comment along the lines of possibility. The route to the top still exists, and that's enough.

But quite honestly, because we're so far detached from the likes of Liverpool, Manu and Man City, they can have their European super league as far as I'm concerned. They can have their little jerk circle.

Because to me, what matters is playing in a football league system that's honest and straightforward. Let the Prem disappear up their own arses. We'll remain, restructure what we've got, work to rules that don't encourage teams to overspend and get back to the days when the best team in the land isn't the one that's the richest.

Obviously that's not going to happen, but that's the dream. Reinvent the old-fashioned four-tier league, and cut the greedy gits from it. So what if it's not all over the TV screens? I want to be able to go to the matches.

Out of interest, just how far back do you think that would be?

Frankly rather than the elite giving the smaller lower league clubs the crumbs from their table and holding them to ransom by demanding all sorts of favours and concessions in return I'd rather see the sick and unsustainable teams go out of business thus avoiding a Macclesfield, Bury et al every season. Many clubs are simply unsustainable end of.

Quoted from Ipswin

Frankly rather than the elite giving the smaller lower league clubs the crumbs from their table and holding them to ransom by demanding all sorts of favours and concessions in return I'd rather see the sick and unsustainable teams go out of business thus avoiding a Macclesfield, Bury et al every season. Many clubs are simply unsustainable end of.

Clubs always have been up and down it’s a cyclical thing. If the football world had not been like that then clubs like Wimbledon would never exist, Hull would have gone bust in the 1990s. I remember seeing Accrington the first time they went bust. The first bald headed player I ever saw was Seddon their centre half. By the end of the season their record was expunged. Yes it is down to ownership and we may see changes if and when things return to a semblance of normality. But I would still far rather watch a local side than some bunch of overpaid and overrated foreigners who were only signed to line somebody’s pockets and play a game that looks more like FIFA 2021 than football.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

. But I would still far rather watch a local side than some bunch of overpaid and overrated foreigners who were only signed to line somebody’s pockets and play a game that looks more like FIFA 2021 than football.

I'm sure fans of 'local sides' will still be able to watch their clubs even if they are unable to continue at their current levels due to a cash crisis exaccerbated by Coronavirus they just won't be in Div 3, 4, the conference or other leagues at level 8 downwards. They will have to live within their means instead of teetering on the financial brink all the time, they won't be signing pros they can't really afford as players will be part time etc. and they will owe the Premioer League intercourse all

Quoted from Ipswin

I'm sure fans of 'local sides' will still be able to watch their clubs even if they are unable to continue at their current levels due to a cash crisis exaccerbated by Coronavirus they just won't be in Div 3, 4, the conference or other leagues at level 8 downwards. They will have to live within their means instead of teetering on the financial brink all the time, they won't be signing pros they can't really afford as players will be part time etc. and they will owe the Premioer League intercourse all

Quite possibly Swin. The part time argument has been around many years now. Do you remember it in reverse when Lincoln first went out of the league in 1986? They stayed full time and walked it, Halifax did the same, Boston too. That’s a sort of psychological issue as much as anything, if a club does the reverse and goes p/t then it looks like it’s giving up the ghost on playing at a higher level.

I think we should go back to jumpers for goal posts....... but unfortunately as much as we all yearn for a less commercial game where you can climb the divisions on merit and hard work it’s never coming back.

As much as a bail out would put a plaster on things I think the EFL and the FA should look at their own governance rules in terms of club ownership & financing as the issue sits closer to home rather than at the top table.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

Quite possibly Swin. The part time argument has been around many years now. Do you remember it in reverse when Lincoln first went out of the league in 1986? They stayed full time and walked it, Halifax did the same, Boston too. That’s a sort of psychological issue as much as anything, if a club does the reverse and goes p/t then it looks like it’s giving up the ghost on playing at a higher level.

Its the fascination /fixation with 'playing at a higher level' (irrespective of financial implications) that I just don't get. What is it about being in the Football League? So what if your side is playing Shithole City instead of Manchester City? (more likely to win a few) so long as it continues to exist.Surely that's what matters

99% of fans of smaller / lower league clubs just want to be able to watch and support 'their' (local) team irrespective of whether it's in the Football League or Lindsey Sunday League on Ploggers

The more I think about it the more I don’t like the ida of a PL bail out. It fear it will come with strings. Besides if the PL has got money to burn, why should it be treated differently from other business sectors? If they’ve got too much money, clearly tax is not progressive enough.

Better, if anything, the money comes from the state (and taxation), if society is seen to benefit by the continuance of lower league football.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Better, if anything, the money comes from the state (and taxation), if society is seen to benefit by the continuance of lower league football.

Taxation is used for the purpose of the NHS, funding the Police, building hospitals, ffs this is absolutely ridiculous...are you proposing an increase in taxation, or distribution of tax in a different manner, which part of the welfare state would you take from?

Manchester City chief executive again pushes B team agenda, ‘Maybe the crisis will give us the opportunity to solve issues’

https://www.theguardian.com/fo.....l-says-citys-soriano

Moaning on that the football league isn't sustainable enough. It's a shame football league clubs haven't got endless streams of oil money too or the ability to get around FFP by setting up inflated sponsorship deals from their owners own mega-businesses eh Ferran?

Genuine question...

What should we do if the Prem only offer us a rescue package on the condition that B teams are allowed into the pyramid?

Quoted from promotion plaice

Genuine question...

What should we do if the Prem only offer us a rescue package on the condition that B teams are allowed into the pyramid?

I suspect you are fishing for a 'tell them to stuff it' reply here but first of all if it's a case of saving Grimsby Town Football Club and / or considering all our fellow lower league clubs and their existence too then it is perhaps not that easy (we could possibly do without a handout but could others)

I've got a feeling that the EFL are suddenly getting behind the campaign to let fans in because the deal on the table with the Premier League isn't a good one.

Quoted from promotion plaice

Genuine question...

What should we do if the Prem only offer us a rescue package on the condition that B teams are allowed into the pyramid?

As we are told by Day, we had a healthy bank balance pre lock down and we will survive this season regardless....so.....two main options;

do we play hard ball, reject any deal based on including B teams, struggle through with no bail out on the basis that at some point in the future , maybe even if its next season, that crowds will be back and we will be self sufficient again and meanwhile let other sides struggle without a bail out and maybe they will go into admin this season enhancing our chances of remaining a League Two side whilst keeping on top of finances

fold like a house of cards and take the deal whatever strings attached as it means Day and other similar/like minded Chairmen wont have to find the money themselves to survive

Whilst i believe under normal circumstances there would be enough objections to reject any such b team deal.....i have very little faith at the moment that greedy/tight chairmen wouldnt sell their souls for short term survival.

Even though there’s billions going into the PL there’s billions flooding out . There’s plenty of PL teams who need every £ available thanks to their stupidity with spiralling wages and agents fees etc etc . It’s a gravy train full of leaches . Personally I’d laugh my head off if one them goes pop .
They’ve got no intentions of bailing the EFL out . Look what happened with Fulham’s parachute payments for this season . It worked out at £1.7m each and they all wanted it back when the EFL asked for it to help out .

Quoted from promotion plaice

Genuine question...

What should we do if the Prem only offer us a rescue package on the condition that B teams are allowed into the pyramid?

I’m not sure that you could “place” them into the pyramid like AFC Wimbledon surely they’d have to start at the bottom, then again if somewhere in the stack they split North & South then maybe.

I wouldn’t want to see it then again I think it’s as perverse  as clubs like Huddersfield moaning on National TV that they have money problems after p1ssing away their parachute money.

So finally the Arab owner of Man C has come out to tell us how to run our League.
We all knew they were pushing for B teams.

Time for the government to grow balls and say English Premier League clubs should be owned by English people.

Secondly, the EFL should just say NO. We are not going to have B teams, so sodomist off.

Thirdly, if the government or the EPL are not going to fund the efl crisis, fans should turn up in their millions and meet outside EFL grounds and demand entry.

Nobody should break the law, and we should all keep socially distanced with masks. Just make the point.

This issue has been in the public domain for months and it needs fixing.

The authorities need to get a grip or the fans will deal the matter in their own way.

This is not a rant. It’s a pragmatic proposal to get football back to a fan based setup. If foreign multimillionaires lose money tough sh**

Quoted from promotion plaice

Genuine question...

What should we do if the Prem only offer us a rescue package on the condition that B teams are allowed into the pyramid?

According to Dave Roberts on Cod Almighty last week -

“As part of our memorandum of understanding we have a written declaration that the club will never vote for B teams into the Football League structure”

So would be interesting to see if the club stick to that.

The entire structure of our pyramid will collapse with B teams anyway so I’d happily tell those rats in the PL to stuff their deal.

Don't know if I would bother anymore if B teams were allowed into the EFL.

I am all fo letting the fans back in.  Just my opinion, but its fine for me to go to the pub with 5 mates from opening time until 10pm, infact i could go to 20 pubs with 5 mates, and they could be a differant 5 mates in each pub. (up to 14 hours drinking time), be indoors all the time and not have to wear a mask while at my table. Yet 2000 people from the same town cant sit outdoors socially distanced in a nearly 10,000 cap stadium for 90 mins. Its balderdash. Id feel much safer sat in BP for 90 mins than I would mc donalds.

https://www.skysports.com/foot.....chief-ferran-soriano

Pretty rich  Man City saying it's not sustainable when the EFL has run for over 100 years and lost very few clubs during that time. On the other hand his club has millions pumped into it and is clearly not self-funded.

Quoted from Boris Johnson

Taxation is used for the purpose of the NHS, funding the Police, building hospitals, ffs this is absolutely ridiculous...are you proposing an increase in taxation, or distribution of tax in a different manner, which part of the welfare state would you take from?

Taxation is used for whatever purpose Parliament decides. Did you not realise that? They take decisions all the time. Maybe it’s difficult to get your head round.

Ever heard of funding for arts and culture? Your namesake promise over a billion for the arts a while back. You know millions of people voted ‘leave’ supposedly to protect the British way of life and culture. Football is probably one of the biggest components of that culture.

There’s plenty of people with more money than they need.

Besides I’d rather have nothing than take ‘handouts’ from the PL. That’d be a Trojan Horse - you can look that one up for yourself.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Taxation is used for whatever purpose Parliament decides. Did you not realise that? They take decisions all the time. Maybe it’s difficult to get your head round.

Ever heard of funding for arts and culture? Your namesake promise over a billion for the arts a while back. You know millions of people voted ‘leave’ supposedly to protect the British way of life and culture. Football is probably one of the biggest components of that culture.

There’s plenty of people with more money than they need.

Besides I’d rather have nothing than take ‘handouts’ from the PL. That’d be a Trojan Horse - you can look that one up for yourself.

Your in cloud cuckoo land....

Weirdly and despite the current ramping up of restrictions I've got a feeling that we'll be back in stadiums quite soon, simply because the pressure is building up on the Government.  Things like being able to watch games in enclosed cinemas but not in open-air stadiums is just bizarre.

This Government reacts to what the popular opinion says and will do anything to try and appear to be doing the right thing.  It'll be reduced capacity for sure and I imagine with some extra Draconian type measures installed but it wouldn't surprise me if we're back in for the Harrogate game...

Premier League broadcasting games outside the October window via PPV.
Kerching.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54481945

Quoted from diehardmariner

Weirdly and despite the current ramping up of restrictions I've got a feeling that we'll be back in stadiums quite soon, simply because the pressure is building up on the Government.  Things like being able to watch games in enclosed cinemas but not in open-air stadiums is just bizarre.

This Government reacts to what the popular opinion says and will do anything to try and appear to be doing the right thing.  It'll be reduced capacity for sure and I imagine with some extra Draconian type measures installed but it wouldn't surprise me if we're back in for the Harrogate game...

Yeah right O !!

Like the majority I am against B teams being admitted and struggle to understand why a competitive reserve team league is no longer considered appropriate and/or suitable for purpose. Given the size of the modern squad that should mean some quality players turning out and for fans of that club worth a watch.

Don’t know why but if B teams were to happen I have always assumed they would take the form of Premier clubs adopting an EFL club, giving them financial support and obviously players and coaches to run the team. Giving it more thought that’s clearly not an option.

In reality many Premiership clubs run an Academy solely to raise funds by selling numerous players for between £1 & £5 million. I note that Chelsea and Man City basically dominate the winning of leagues/trophies at youth levels and both have 30 plus players out on loan the majority prior to selling and only the exception gets through to the first team. I thought Chelsea had changed their approach last season but their summer spending demonstrated this was solely due to their ban from transfers and once this ended it was back to normal and once all their signings are fit how many of Abraham’s, Gilmour, Hudson Odoi etc. will be getting regular games?