GTST - The Past, The Present, The Future

Hello All:

I know that there has been criticism about the lack of a 'statement' from GTST following John Fentys resignation on Monday night.  I have been working away for most of this week so have had time to put some serious thought to the current state of affairs.  I came to the conclusion that rather than simply comment on the situation at the club, it would be better to comment on the current situation with GTST.  This is how I see things - so here goes....    

GTST - The Past, The Present, The Future

The events of the past week have sparked discussion in some quarters about whether there is a role that the supporters of Grimsby Town Football Club can play in helping to ensure the future of the club.  The apparent ‘stand-off’ between the two largest shareholders, John Fenty and Mike Parker, leaves some uncertainty as to where funding to maintain ‘business as usual’ will come from in the future.

This has naturally led to questions being raised about whether the Grimsby Town Supporters Trust (GTST) is a suitable vehicle for supporters to provide input to the football club – be this financial or otherwise.

I’ve given some thought this week about how best to address people’s questions and concerns regarding GTST, and came to the conclusion that the best approach was to be open and honest about where we are at.  The past provides context for the present situation.  The future is open for debate and is really in the hands of the supporters.  

The Past
Supporters’ Trusts first started to appear in 2001/2002, when supporters of football clubs that were experiencing financial difficulties were looking for ways in which they could invest in clubs en masse in a democratic manner.  The premise was simple – Supporters Trusts would raise funds which would then be invested in the football clubs they supported on behalf of the supporters.  The Supporters’ Trust would be run by a board elected by the members, with each member having a single share in the Supporters’ Trust and thus a single vote.  Some Trusts, like Notts County, even gained control of the football club they aligned to.  It was seen as the ideal way for supporters’ voices to be heard in a business that was becoming increasingly about making money.

During the summer of 2002, discussion via the Electronic Fishcake sparked a number of GTFC supporters to meet up face to face to debate the formation of a Supporters Trust for Grimsby Town.  I was one of those supporters.  We were all pretty convinced that forming a Supporters Trust was a good thing to do, but that the decision wasn’t one that we as a small group of people could make alone.  We decided the right thing would be to arrange an open meeting during which the idea would be presented, and put to a vote.

After a well-attended meeting at the Memorial Hall in Nov 2002, the motion to form a Supporters Trust was passed, and an energetic and enthusiastic group of people formed the first GTST board.  We recruited members, raised money, bought shares in GTFC, wrote newsletters, launched a website – even built a whacking great wooden fish and paraded it on the back of a lorry down Cleethorpes seafront.  More importantly, we had fun.

GTST had a fantastic chairman in Dave Otter who was always willing and able to be the public face of the Trust in the local media.  Dave struck up a strong relationship with the board of the football club, leading to GTST being consulted consistently on matters that affected supporters.

The tax debt came and went, and John Fenty (and more recently Mike Parker) continued to support the club financially.  Attendance at Trust organised fundraising events dwindled to levels where it becoming financially unviable to continue with them.  With the football club have 2 wealthy individual investors and no impending financial crisis, the club and the supporters mostly carried on as usual.  

As for GTST, as the years have passed, members have come and gone.  Board members have come and gone (crucially, Dave Otter stepped down as chairman in 2009).  And somewhere along the way the fun went away too.  

The Present
At this moment in time, GTST could be described as dormant, at best.  

The board is made up of a number of individuals most of whom do not live in the Grimsby / Cleethorpes area and all of whom have quite important things that take up huge chunks of our time – like jobs and family commitments.  In that respect, we’re no different from anyone else, so I’m not looking to make excuses here – just provide the facts.  We all have other interests and hobbies, and again in that respect we’re no different from anyone else.  

There is one key difference, however, which is that over time we have allowed our lives and those interests and hobbies to occupy more and more of our time, with less and less time being made available for GTST commitments.  For those board members that have been involved in GTST since day one, the difference between our lives back then and our lives now has also played a part – a lot can change in 10 years.

To put it simply, the current GTST board aren’t able to devote the time that is required to run GTST as a successful going concern.  

And finally there is the complacency and procrastination.  I’ll admit that I’m guilty of letting the days and sometimes weeks slip by without giving GTST a second thought.  Sometimes there are good reasons for that (personal and family issues that must take precedence), but often not.  Yes, it’s pretty unforgivable, but when there is no-one banging on the door and challenging that, it’s easy to do.  

So, those are the honest facts.  But now there are people banging that door quite hard so it’s time for me – as the current Chair - to remove my head from the sand and do something about it.  It’s clear that GTST is going absolutely nowhere in its current form, and that the time has come to do, or die.

The Future
Let’s get the elephant in the room out of the way first – does the Grimsby Town Supporters Trust have a future?
  
Firstly, if there is serious interest in maintaining a democratic supporter body, GTST provides the mechanism to support that and so the answer is probably YES.  GTST is a pre-existing legal entity, governed by strict rules and regulations.  There is a membership administration system and an existing (albeit small) membership base.  There is a bank account and other regular sources of minimal funds such as The Weather Lottery and buy.at.  There is an identity and a website.  It’s all packaged and ready to go.

Secondly, if there are enough people willing to step up to the plate and run such a democratic supporter body, the answer is definitely YES.

Failing that, in all honesty the answer is probably NO.  That would be a real shame, especially for the few people who have put in so many unpaid hours over the years to keep GTST ticking over.

So, where do things go from here?  

From reading the messageboards this week, it seems like there is some interest in forming a supporter body that can work with the football club, and be mobilised in times of crisis.  Which is fantastic, however the next challenge is to turn words into actions.  Are there people with the necessary energy and skills required to pick up a dormant GTST, wake it up and get it working to full effect?

From experience, I envisage that it would take 15/20 willing volunteers with a good mix of skills to get things moving.  Ideally, the core of these would live in the local Grimsby / Cleethorpes area in order to provide flexibility in arranging meetings.  There are no perks, there will be criticism from some corners (some of it personal), and you won’t get much thanks for your time.  But the satisfaction comes from knowing that you are at least trying to make a difference.

Time is needed for the basics – membership administration, accounting, general administration and basic communications.  These are probably the most time consuming and frankly thankless tasks, but absolutely necessary to underpin everything else.  Once those things are running smoothly, there are the slightly more exciting things to consider like maintaining the website, social media updates, more structured ongoing communication.  Finally, there is liaison with the local media and the football club itself.  There is a large workload that needs to be spread out to prevent over-reliance on single individuals and to recognise that there will be times that people have to step back.

Back in the summer of 2002 in those initial Electronic Fishcake discussions, someone suggested a date, time and location and those of us that were interested in getting involved just turned up.  We didn’t know each other, but somehow we managed to work together and things happened.  I don’t think it’s my place to dictate what happens next, but maybe going back to square one wouldn’t be such a bad idea?

I can’t speak for the other board members, however I would happily work with any supporters that are serious about taking GTST forward and would more than happy to spend the time helping them get up to speed before disappearing quietly into the background.  

Thanks for listening, and Up The Mariners.

Emma Blackbourn
GTST Chair

Excellent, much needed and very honest post Emma and i for one would like to step forward and help in anyway i can?Personally i think a meeting should be called on a non matchday for local people that want to get involved and i would hope that any personal differences from the past ie Dave and Tony be put aside for the greater good.UTM

A meeting would be a really good start.  If someone can sort out a time, place and venue then I will do what I can to make myself available to provide assistance / answer questions.

Well lets see what response this post gets for a week or so first Emma but sorting a venue etc wont be a problem and i will gladly do that.

i think organising a meeting could be a step to far

Quoted from dapperz fun pub

i think organising a meeting could be a step to far

You have to come mate otherwise we will never sell enough ale to qualify for a free room anywhere

Quoted from 1mickylyons

You have to come mate otherwise we will never sell enough ale to qualify for a free room anywhere

i dont drink

I would be more than willing to both attend and contribute anything I can.

well done emma. I know from my running athletics clubs background how hard it is to maintain that level of enthusiasm over many years when you have other committments and are not getting any return for your input.
i hope that there are enough local people to at least keep it going, if not drive it forward. I am sure that finances would not be a problem - an appeal on here or at matches for donations or new members would bring in capital, I'm sure.

down to you gy people out there!

as they say - USE IT OR LOSE IT!

The hardest thing facing the Trust in my opinion  is that fact the gates have just about halved since the last time they were Active on a regular basis.

Well, the sad fact is that Trusts always flourish in adversity. Let's hope that's the case here.

Quoted from 1mickylyons

The hardest thing facing the Trust in my opinion  is that fact the gates have just about halved since the last time they were Active on a regular basis.

Having said that, could an active and 'fun' trust bring people back into the circle?

Quoted from Wrawby_Mariner

Having said that, could an active and 'fun' trust bring people back into the circle?

Yes it could but take this kids go free offer the Club have got on for tomorrow hardly anyone knows about it and worse still those that do cant be bothered to attend in any numbers yet come 5pm tomorrow if Town lose they will be allover this messageboard gloating about money saved.Town fans need to spread the message via workplaces etc and try and get back some of those missing fans that DO care about the Club and want to see it restored to the Football League and more importantly have a voice on the board that can stop ego maniacs putting the very existance at stake with there petty squabbles.

Quoted from Wrawby_Mariner

I would be more than willing to both attend and contribute anything I can.

Me too

That was a great post Grim Exile... I would be willing to attend a meeting to see what idea's we can come up with to move the trust on...

I think the other thing we need to work out is, how can we get the message out to other fans who are not members of the fishy, that the trust is trying to gauge support and how fans could put themselves forward if they are interested... I would say the telegraph and radio but I suppose these could be costly unless the trust already has some contacts that would be able to help with this...???

Quoted from voice of reason

That was a great post Grim Exile... I would be willing to attend a meeting to see what idea's we can come up with to move the trust on...

I think the other thing we need to work out is, how can we get the message out to other fans who are not members of the fishy, that the trust is trying to gauge support and how fans could put themselves forward if they are interested... I would say the telegraph and radio but I suppose these could be costly unless the trust already has some contacts that would be able to help with this...???

I can sort these things out...and I will.

I forgot to add...that's if you want me to Emma...sorry!!!

Thanks VOR - back in 2002, that first meeting was (from memory) limited to messageboard members.  Once we had an initial body of volunteers we then allocated tasks and used our contacts to spead the word further.

Edit - I've just seen Daves reply.  Once a meeting date / time / location has been agreed then yes - using local media to publicise would be great!  The more the merrier!

Emma thankyou.

Without wishing to lay any blame whatsoever I would like to make a few suggestions.

I suggested myself on the fishy that fans should save their small change long term WHILST STILL SUPPORTING THE CLUB in any case of future emergency.
The idea being they did not hand over a single penny to anyone, just collectively saved until such time they could have a "democratic" say where the money would go.
The response was disappointing.

However since you are in a much more respected and powerful position, I would like to offer my own observations as an outsider who would be more than willing to volunteer or join in principle, but is not currently convinced.

Put it this way - if you can't convince me then what real chance have you got with the average apathetic fan ?

Please bear in mind my intention is NEVER to belittle your ideas, willingness or hard work, just to raise some issues that could help to get this thing off the ground again.

Ok here we go....

Firstly, having viewed your website, I don't actually know what the organisation is meant to do !!!  
http://www.gtst.net/site/content/view/40/53/

"give supporters an ownership stake in their club and a voice in its affairs"
sounds fair enough, but how does it actually translate into benefitting the club if I were to join ?

All I seem to know is you somehow acquire shares ?

- What does does the £15/year membership actually pay for ? The running cost of GTST, GTFC shares, GTST voting rights ?
- What advantage is there to buying shares via GTST and not the club ?
- What issues do you vote on ?
- HOW DOES ALL YOUR WORK ULTIMATELY BENEFIT THE SUPPORTERS OR THE CLUB ?

To be frank, this bit summed it all up for me:

"4. WHAT BENEFITS ARE THERE TO GTST MEMBERSHIP?

As a GTST member you have a full say in deciding GTST policy. You also participate in the election of GTST's directors, can stand for election yourself, and have a vote on all GTST policies. You can attend and speak at the GTST AGM as well as other members' events.
We also publish a regular GTST news magazine for all members. Initially this is biannual but we'll increase frequency as GTST membership grows."

That's all fine, but the impression I am left with is...

"I can be a member and have a say in an organisation that I don't know what it does or how it benefits the club or it's supporters ?"

I would suggest you (or we if the idea is to include as many fans as possible) need to:

- be clear what your message is
- communicate it a lot better.
- have a GOAL

Another problem with truly democratic organisations is the fine line between democracy and "not wanting to take over" and showing leadership.

This can end up losing focus on the actual goal and becoming tied up in knots in organising the organisation itself.

I would never wish to belittle any attempts at trying to rally support, but might it be worth going right back to SQUARE 1 and engaging as many fans in dialogue about the aims of GTST before asking others to "show willing" on something they don't actually know what it will be for ?

Or can you enlighten me and others what GTST is and how it could make a difference to GTFC ?

Many thanks.

For clarity 80's, I believe the point of the Trust is to be a coherent and reliable voice of the fans to deliver opinion and fact from the fans to the club, and to be a recognised channel for the club to communicate with the fans. It should also be a place where the fans can come together to raise funds, discuss projects for those funds to spent on, and as Emma said - have fun! It should be seen as a social club, with a unifying cause, yet with a free rein on it's activities.

I only get to Grimsby 4 or 5 times a year, and then the majority of time is taken up with family commitments, but I'm certainly willing to get involved in anything that can be done remotely. With the internet and email most jobs should be achievable no matter where you live.

I think online registration and subscription should be easy to achieve, and anyone that reads the Fishy has the tools required to update social media. I would love to be involved, even if it's just to update a twitter account. Count me in.

Up the Mariners!

Thanks very much for that Will.  

If people would like to set it up to have fun then good for them, enjoy !  
Maybe I'm taking it all too seriously, but if large numbers of fans could be presented with enough motivation to all pull together and donate, would it put the supporters in a strong position ?

What I'm saying is, as a fan and potential donator, what motivation can I be given to donate to GTST and not to the club ?

Not having a go, just saying the marketing/planning side of things could be clearer(IMO the website certainly could be), but it's more about having specific goals that fans can relate to e.g. "Help us raise money to...." ?

Don't get me wrong I'm happy to donate IF there is a real cause that I know will benefit the club.
If I donated £50 tommorow where would the money go ?
Right now does anybody know ?
The website doesn't really tell me, that's my point.

Sorry but right now it's not a "coherent voice".

It's great to make offers to help out others but it would be helpful if people stopped looking at others to tell them what to do and started generating some productive ideas ?
Or does that come later in the meeting ? (is that down the pub ?  )

If you want to form a social club then fine, but I'm afraid I'm not in the immediate area and not sure I'd be willing to be part of that.
I see little point in wasting time in "token gestures" to say "I did my bit for GTFC !" if it ultimately achieves little.

Maybe I'm being too demanding or critical but it'll be no good GTST turning round later saying "Well we asked but no-one was bothered".

Emma says it's down to the supporters and she's right, but where's the inspiration and leadership from the top ?
tbh already I get this feeling that really, GTST can't be bothered ?  
Or am I wrong ?

Just feel there's no point in asking people to rush around and do things just for the sake of it.

Emma says "Secondly, if there are enough people willing to step up to the plate and run such a democratic supporter body"

To achieve what ?

Thing is 80's, you're dead right. At the minute the website does need freshening up, and the Trust as it stands right now has very little direction by the admission of the current Chair. As Tarka pointed out earlier, Trusts only really thrive in adversity.

But this is the opportunity to breathe new life into the Trust. It does need a new goal, and new target to spend membership subscriptions and fundraising on. Let's get it up and running, then YOU can have a say in that decision.

Like you, I don't live in Grimsby. But I'm enthousiastic, and think that there is a role for the Trust as both a mouthpiece and a Supporter's Club. As a body that's already recognised by the Club, surely there's no greater vehicle?

The problem 80s is that there's plenty of people willing to point out the negatives but not enough (well virtually NO) people willing to DO anything positive.

Sure there are faults with the GTST website, and possibly opaque messages about it's aims, but (a) WHO is willing to spend their time to improve it? (b) Why can't people use their imagination as to what it all means?

That second question is more of a dig at the consumerist pit most people seem to have sunk into. No I'll be honest, other club's trusts have similarly expressed aims and objectives. Why are the fans of other clubs active and interested whilst Grimsby fans seem apathetic and fatalistic?

I used to feel guilty for not doing anything and I live 200 miles away. Most supporters in NE Lincs should feel ashamed.

My own view about the aims and objectives are that they are too moderate and ....well nice and inoffensive. I understand why they were worded this way at the time (GTFC wasn't in the dire straits that other clubs found themselves in). Personally speaking I think this was a mistake - a radical call to arms would in my view be more likely to motivate people. Make the message more clear cut. "WE WANT TO RUN THIS CLUB. LET'S CHANGE IT FROM BEING A TOY THAT MAKES LOCAL MILLIONAIRES FEEL GOOD ABOUT THEMSELVES".  But the thing is, most members didn't see it the same way.

And that's the whole point..

At the end of the day Will, it's not a case of wanting any glory (pardon the pun) or even having a say on "runnign things".
I'm just thinking of the club's survival or how fans could potentially either make a real difference to the club, have a real voice, so I'm just trying to help things along...

Or should I say, stop people wasting their own time if they don't actually need to ?
What I'm saying is, people don't have to make a target or do anything for the sake of it ?

Let's be honest here, who wouldn't want to put their feet up and do sodomist all ?

I'll be eager to help if it makes a real difference to GTFC but if people want to form a social club and have fun, then good luck to them.
If so, personally I won't be (not that I could), I'll just be a potential donator (waiting to see how I can be persuaded to) and a supporter keen to have a voice (if it's even possible).

Good post, and valid points.

Quoted from TWAreaTownSupporter

Sure there are faults with the GTST website, and possibly opaque messages about it's aims, but (a) WHO is willing to spend their time to improve it?

Oh come on, changing a website ?
If people aren't prepared to do the small things(haven't people already volunteered ?), what hope is there ?

Quoted from TWAreaTownSupporter

(b) Why can't people use their imagination as to what it all means?

That all fine and dandy, let them imagine what they like.
Are they gonna part with their money though ?

Quoted from TWAreaTownSupporter

Why are the fans of other clubs active and interested whilst Grimsby fans seem apathetic and fatalistic?
I used to feel guilty for not doing anything and I live 200 miles away. Most supporters in NE Lincs should feel ashamed.

Have to agree...

Quoted from TWAreaTownSupporter

My own view about the aims and objectives are that they are too moderate and ....well nice and inoffensive. I understand why they were worded this way at the time (GTFC wasn't in the dire straits that other clubs found themselves in). Personally speaking I think this was a mistake - a radical call to arms would in my view be more likely to motivate people. Make the message more clear cut. "WE WANT TO RUN THIS CLUB. LET'S CHANGE IT FROM BEING A TOY THAT MAKES LOCAL MILLIONAIRES FEEL GOOD ABOUT THEMSELVES".

But the thing is, most members didn't see it the same way.

And that's the whole point..

Well I totally agree - it's far too moderate.

Do you mean the members saw it as an extension of the "the club" i.e. GTFC and it was like "sign up, you'll be an official supporter" ?

I've said myself that part of the problem is that fans see how the club operates as a separate entity i.e. it's "the club", not "OUR club we can help make a difference to".

Personally I think it's about changing attitudes - what I might do is put the fear of god into supporters to help raise e.g. £200,000 and play on their emotions i.e. "HELP SUPPORT US OR LOSE YOUR CLUB !!"

Alternatively if they could raise money for specific things outside the clubs day to day operations e.g. signing players THEY WANT, speaker systems, saving/supporting the youth team then it would make supporters feel their donations were worthy and being used.

But it's a different principle to just "raising money" to hand a blank cheque over to Mr Fenty to let him spend it how he likes because that's what supporters do on matchdays.

Surely the whole point should be supporters get a real say in THEIR club ?

If you can tap into that, it'll catch on and the sky is the limit !

I wouldn't know about updating a website. i'd imagine it's not that difficult but I don't have the technical knowledge. But apart from Rachel Branson and a few others, who has stepped up to the plate to do it?

I'm not sure what I think about the clarity of objectives. On the one hand I think "make it bold and clear cut" so more people understand, on the other it's pandering to the marketing driven malaise that is causing the problem in the first place -"let the buggers think for themselves". (No you're right that's not gonna work is it?).

I don't know what was in the minds of most Trust members but I'd imagine most were practical, committed supporters prepared to do something but possibly a little to cynical of anything that smacked of the radical. Maybe worried (like many well-meaning people in Blair's Britain) that anything too radical would make things worse. They voted for the supporters' equivalent of trickle down economics.

Now we know that leaving football clubs (like whole economies) to be run by a rich elite leads to disaster. There's no guarantee a supporter run football club will survive let alone prosper, but it's worth the risk. Better than the risk of leaving it to a game of musical chairs (entry fee £500,000). What's the worst that could happen? Bankruptcy? Well let's start again!

You're right about trying to change people's minds. "Let's raise a million quid to kick these barstewards out for good" would motivate me more than, let's raise money to.....[insert worthwhile aim]. I'd rather chip in money for a (risky) cause that aims to make a lasting change than oo let's say, provide a change of kit for the youth team.

Quoted from 1600

Oh come on, changing a website ?
If people aren't prepared to do the small things(haven't people already volunteered ?), what hope is there ?


That all fine and dandy, let them imagine what they like.
Are they gonna part with their money though ?


Have to agree...


Well I totally agree - it's far too moderate.

Do you mean the members saw it as an extension of the "the club" i.e. GTFC and it was like "sign up, you'll be an official supporter" ?

I've said myself that part of the problem is that fans see how the club operates as a separate entity i.e. it's "the club", not "OUR club we can help make a difference to".

Personally I think it's about changing attitudes - what I might do is put the fear of god into supporters to help raise e.g. £200,000 and play on their emotions i.e. "HELP SUPPORT US OR LOSE YOUR CLUB !!"

Alternatively if they could raise money for specific things outside the clubs day to day operations e.g. signing players THEY WANT, speaker systems, saving/supporting the youth team then it would make supporters feel their donations were worthy and being used.

But it's a different principle to just "raising money" to hand a blank cheque over to Mr Fenty to let him spend it how he likes because that's what supporters do on matchdays.

Surely the whole point should be supporters get a real say in THEIR club ?

If you can tap into that, it'll catch on and the sky is the limit !

I'm all over that mate

Quoted from TWAreaTownSupporter

I wouldn't know about updating a website. i'd imagine it's not that difficult but I don't have the technical knowledge. But apart from Rachel Branson and a few others, who has stepped up to the plate to do it?

How many do you need ?!
Don't worry it's easy.

Quoted from TWAreaTownSupporter

I don't know what was in the minds of most Trust members but I'd imagine most were practical, committed supporters prepared to do something but possibly a little to cynical of anything that smacked of the radical.

I'd guess that's because the trust buys shares in the club ?
Not quite the same as a collective kitty for supporters money that can be pumped into it on the say so of supporters ?

To change tack could be a big issue, but it comes back to the question - what is the trust for ?
To give supporters a voice ?
But have they had one or is that because they've yet to raise enough shares ?

What would JF say if the Trust said to him:
"We're not gonna be buying shares any more, we're gonna be raising money and we'd like the board to spend it on x" ?

Quoted from 1600

How many do you need ?!
Don't worry it's easy.


I'd guess that's because the trust buys shares in the club ?
Not quite the same as a collective kitty for supporters money that can be pumped into it on the say so of supporters ?

To change tack could be a big issue, but it comes back to the question - what is the trust for ?
To give supporters a voice ?
But have they had one or is that because they've yet to raise enough shares ?

What would JF say if the Trust said to him:
"We're not gonna be buying shares any more, we're gonna be raising money and we'd like the board to spend it on x" ?

80's - with all respect you are reinventing the wheel. We never just automatically bought shares...and our perceived lack of radicalism was commensurate with the situation of the club at the time.  The Club was financially secure with a multimillionaire at the helm and we only really purchased shares during the period of the Keep the Mariners Afloat Campaign which the Trust set up jointly with the Club's Board.

After that episode finished the vast majority of our money went into sponsoring the youth set up....this was because that is what our members wanted to do.  Your notion that a "collective kitty" would be any different is entirely wrong...it is one and the same thing.

Your previous suggestion about GTST being just about "fun" is also well wide of the mark (although I do understand that it was a reaction to a previous statement). A Supporters' Trust is a democratic body that is legally formed (a long and tortuous process!) as an Industrial and Provident Society. No member is allowed to purchase more than one share which costs the grand total of £1.  When I was Chairman we were governed by the FSA (no, I don't know why either!) although this may have changed in the last couple of years.

So "fun" it could and should be but it is also very serious.

I appreciate the information tarka.  

I wasn't criticizing the Trust, I just didn't know all that because I had no prior knowledge.

The fact you've now told me is great - I wish it was explained on the website !

May I ask:

What does £15 yearly membership pay for ? Is that just to be a member ?
Where does money donated to the trust go ?

Quoted from 1600

I appreciate the information tarka.  

I wasn't criticizing the Trust, I just didn't know all that because I had no prior knowledge.

The fact you've now told me is great - I wish it was explained on the website !

May I ask:

What does £15 yearly membership pay for ? Is that just to be a member ?
Where does money donated to the trust go ?

Apart from running costs the money goes towards whatever the membership chooses...as I say, in recent times that has been the youth set up.

Quoted from 1600

.

The fact you've now told me is great - I wish it was explained on the website !

It is!

http://www.gtst.net/site/content/view/40/53/

Quoted from tarka

It is!
http://www.gtst.net/site/content/view/40/53/

No it isn't !  

I was referring to your fishy comments about where the money went or where it's meant to be going.

You can come on here and explain it to me as if I'm thick as two short planks and meant to bow my head in shame, but nowhere on the site could I see :
(and forgive me if I've missed it but isn't it up to the website to grab my attention ?)

- where the money has been spent
- how GTFC has actually benefitted.
- where future donations will or might be used.

The only thing I saw was how many shares the trust have and how much it had raised. (and well done but just think how much potential there is !)

If I wish to make a donation then short of becoming a member and taking part in a lengthy democratic process(none of which is explained in any real depth), then I still have no influence or idea on where my money would go.

As someone who would ACTUALLY BE WILLING(!) to donate to a cause that could specifically benefit GTFC in some particular area, forgive me for saying I remain totally unconvinced and feel a lot more inclined to give my money directly to the club ! Or better, save it for the club for the future...

And it's all well and good saying GTST needs to revived, but it's ironic no-one connected with GTST has said WHY. (tbf Emma said "be mobilised in times of crisis")

But it's pretty obvious what I'm saying - to be successful GTST needs clearer goals, better presentation and more transparency to non-members
i.e. the average supporter with money ready to spend on-line who may lack the time, patience or ability to embroil themselves in GTST's inner workings.

PS Dare I also live in the REAL WORLD and point out some supporters may not even be bothered to write a cheque or address an envelope ?  

Oh I give up 80's....you wanted to know what the Trust was about, you obviously had no idea so I pointed you to the FAQ page of the site. I've already said that funds in the past have gone on buying shares and the youth set up...future investments would be decided by the members.

"You can come on here and explain it to me as if I'm thick as two short planks and meant to bow my head in shame"  No I haven't...I've answered your questions and tried to point you in the right direction for info...now give over!

As far as the real world is concerned....yes, some people can't be bothered, that's why the Trust is dormant.  If people can't be bothered then that is fine...forget it! Emma has come on here and basically set the scene...it is now up to the supporters to decide if they want to do anything about it!

Oh....and what is this lengthy democratic process you are talking about?

Quoted from tarka

Oh I give up 80's....you wanted to know what the Trust was about, you obviously had no idea so I pointed you to the FAQ page of the site. I've already said that funds in the past have gone on buying shares and the youth set up...future investments would be decided by the members.

"You can come on here and explain it to me as if I'm thick as two short planks and meant to bow my head in shame"  No I haven't...I've answered your questions and tried to point you in the right direction for info...now give over!

As far as the real world is concerned....yes, some people can't be bothered, that's why the Trust is dormant.  If people can't be bothered then that is fine...forget it! Emma has come on here and basically set the scene...it is now up to the supporters to decide if they want to do anything about it!

Oh....and what is this lengthy democratic process you are talking about?

I hear your pain! What a torturous thread this! Not sure what else you can to do explain things...

For what it's worth I think the Trust have tried extremely hard and we should be all thankful for the time they have put in and the money they have raised. Raising £20,000 odd is a fantastic achievement and something to be proud of.

However, I do have reservations. Fan ownership is an ideal that does not stack up to me and I would far rather have a wealthy businessman in charge than a group of fans with no experience of running multi million pound businesses. With such a large number of people with vested interests nothing is anything simple.

I would rather that the Trust was there as a fans voice and a money making vehicle. Taking over the club is an unrealistic target which I would not be in favour of. The only event in which I would want to see the Trust running the club would be if we went pop and started again in the local leagues.

I don't think I would argue with that....it was never our intention to run the Club....rather to have a voice and to a certain extent we achieved that.  By the way, the figure was well over £30,000 but only £22,000 went in shares.

I am a fully paid-up member of the Trust since the start.  I travelled to the initial meeting in Cleethorpes from North Yorkshire on a very foggy night.   I have also attended one annual Trust meeting in the Lower Smiths.

I have work, family, sporting and other commitments that allow no spare time for the Trust. I would offer to help with the admin if I could.  I don't live in the Grimsby area either.

Dave, Emma and the other Committee have done an excellent job.  Particularly, considering that they have had very little support from non-Trust Town fans.  Apathy and even some hostility have been evident.  You would think sometimes that the Trust was set up to support Scunny.

Most of the Trust Committee members are exiles.  If some local fans could each do their bit, then the Trust can move forward.  We might need it more in the future.  Who knows?

Whatever happens, well done the Committee members for all the hard work that you have unselfishly managed to fit in for the good of the Club, whilst leading busy lives. The silent majority recognise and appreciate your efforts.

With all due respect 80's (which is very little) your negativity in this thread has probably already put off any chance this had of going anywhere. It might be the case that the goals aren't clear (I disagree) but surely getting people involved to help articulate a direction - or a new direction is a good thing.

To be frank, I don't think you actually have a clue. You suggest it's a great idea to get people to put all their coppers in a jar, put them in a constar machine and hand over a cheque, but deride a fully formed legal and provident society with proper accountability.

The best way this can go is to leave the messageboards, organise a meeting where non-members can sign up on the day, and commit themselves to whatever skills they have.

Quoted from Dan

With all due respect 80's (which is very little) your negativity in this thread has probably already put off any chance this had of going anywhere. It might be the case that the goals aren't clear (I disagree) but surely getting people involved to help articulate a direction - or a new direction is a good thing.

To be frank, I don't think you actually have a clue. You suggest it's a great idea to get people to put all their coppers in a jar, put them in a constar machine and hand over a cheque, but deride a fully formed legal and provident society with proper accountability.

The best way this can go is to leave the messageboards, organise a meeting where non-members can sign up on the day, and commit themselves to whatever skills they have.

Prepare to have your message disectected!!

Quoted from psgmariner

I hear your pain! What a torturous thread this! Not sure what else you can to do explain things...

For what it's worth I think the Trust have tried extremely hard and we should be all thankful for the time they have put in and the money they have raised. Raising £20,000 odd is a fantastic achievement and something to be proud of.

However, I do have reservations. Fan ownership is an ideal that does not stack up to me and I would far rather have a wealthy businessman in charge than a group of fans with no experience of running multi million pound businesses. With such a large number of people with vested interests nothing is anything simple.

I would rather that the Trust was there as a fans voice and a money making vehicle. Taking over the club is an unrealistic target which I would not be in favour of. The only event in which I would want to see the Trust running the club would be if we went pop and started again in the local leagues.

WHS.

80's, it is abundently clear you have no intention of actually doing anything productive so why dont you just shut up and let those who do want to do something get on with it.  I have nothing but respect for those involved with the Trust and your constant criticism and unbelievable nit-picking contributes nothing to any potential future it has.

80s Glory is spot on.

tarka,

From a marketing point of view, any "product" out there on the WWW needs to sell itself to potential customers - in this case GTFC supporters.
All I'm trying to do is to suggest ways that GTST can improve their communication through their website to make it as successful as it can be to help GTFC.

With all due respect, how difficult is it to understand that you giving me those answers on the fishy isn't the solution ?!
Forgive me but why do I get the impression you're deliberately not listening ?

Quoted from tarka

Prepare to have your message disectected!!

Are sarcastic comments like this mean to endear people to GTST ?

Quoted from tarka

As far as the real world is concerned....yes, some people can't be bothered, that's why the Trust is dormant.  If people can't be bothered then that is fine...forget it!

You see you've got overly defensive for no need...
Sure I might not have held back with the criticism but isn't it better everyone gets a wake up call NOW with some genuine feedback before they march ahead and potentially waste time later ?
Bit of a cheek if you ask me - tbh as a POTENTIAL CUSTOMER and someone who's WILLING TO HELP, I think I'm doing you all a BIG favour pointing these important things out !  

Quoted from tarka

Emma has come on here and basically set the scene...it is now up to the supporters to decide if they want to do anything about it!

What on earth does that mean ?!
Haven't I just spent my own time trying to make suggestions to help ?
Again I'm so so sorry to "criticize" but there's more to successful projects than showing willing and licking a few envelopes !

Be honest, did GTST fizzle out because people couldn't be bothered or because there was no underlying strategy so they couldn't think of any work to do ?

Quoted from tarka

Oh....and what is this lengthy democratic process you are talking about?

Lengthy and convoluted was the impression I got reading the website but it really doesn't matter.
All I was trying to say was that supporters may simply wish to donate without being (able to be) involved in GTST.
If I donate to Oxfam I don't need to volunteer or vote for them to know where the money is going ?
I've already made my points about that - feel disappointed you just don't seem to be taking any of them on board.  

Quoted from psgmariner

For what it's worth I think the Trust have tried extremely hard and we should be all thankful for the time they have put in and the money they have raised. Raising £20,000 odd is a fantastic achievement and something to be proud of.

So do I !!!
Everyone's done a great job but in the long-run it's counter-productive to tiptoe around on eggshells just because people can't handle a bit (or tbf a lot) of criticism.
Emma says you'll have to put up personal abuse, maybe she should expand it ?
Tell you what, none of you would last more than 1 minute on The Apprentice !
You'd be accusing Alan Sugar of "negativity".  

Quoted from Dan

To be frank, I don't think you actually have a clue. You suggest it's a great idea to get people to put all their coppers in a jar, put them in a constar machine and hand over a cheque, but deride a fully formed legal and provident society with proper accountability.

Not deriding anyone - trying to help them become MORE successful !
The fact you've mentioned "hand over a cheque" shows you've completely missed the whole point !
Got ZERO to do with the amount or means of money making either.
And don't ask "Well what is the point then ?"
Jesus wept I've spent hours trying to get people to understand the difference between fans "having a real say" and raising money just to hand over a cheque to John Fenty - I can do that myself at the club shop !

Quoted from Dan

The best way this can go is to leave the messageboards, organise a meeting where non-members can sign up on the day, and commit themselves to whatever skills they have.

Sorry I just can't make it.
You'll be relieved to know that rules me out then, so well done !   
How very convenient for you all ?  

Quoted from psgmariner

Fan ownership is an ideal that does not stack up to me and I would far rather have a wealthy businessman in charge than a group of fans with no experience of running multi million pound businesses. With such a large number of people with vested interests nothing is anything simple.

Who said anything about fan ownership ?
Is that what GTST are scared of ?
Anyway, try to telling all that to AFC Wimbledon !

Quoted from psgmariner

I would rather that the Trust was there as a fans voice and a money making vehicle.

So would I !!
Any ideas ?
Or is the fishy out of bounds for discussion and you're saving them all for the meeting ?

Fact is, it's not a real fans voice if only GTST members get to decide because many fans won't be able to make it.
I'll look forward to how you might be able to accomodate me ! (not)

Quoted from psgmariner

Taking over the club is an unrealistic target which I would not be in favour of.

Who mentioned "taking over the club" ?  
Stop deliberately twisting things !  

Quoted from cardiffmariner

80's, it is abundently clear you have no intention of actually doing anything productive so why dont you just shut up and let those who do want to do something get on with it.

Complete and utter rubbish ! Why don't YOU shut up instead ?    

Bloody typical - tarka says "it's up to the supporters" then when supporters come forward and offer ideas with a bit of criticism to help improve things, they're accused of being "negative" and "unwilling to help".  

I always used to imagine The Grimbarian was a complete joke, but now I'm starting to wonder if he's actually right !!!  

My brain hurts.

Utterly cringe-worthy...

Don't be a cheapskate and drink Special Brew then.  

Quoted from pizzzza

Utterly cringe-worthy...

Says the person who's got a pair of greasy breasts in his profile.

Quoted from 1600

Says the person who's got a pair of greasy breasts in his profile.

I like your thinking 80s, great post.

FAO 80sglory

Thanks for taking the time to post with your views and ideas about what GTST could do in order to make itself a more attractive proposition to GTFC supporters (ref, your original post September 23, 2011, 6:12pm).  
I appreciate that there have been a number of responses to your queries to date, however I felt I should at least have the good manners to respond to your questions and comments myself.  I apologise for it being a couple of days after my original post, however like the good housewife I am, I have had domestic matters to attend to  .

I’ve tried to pick the key questions out of your original post and address them one by one

1.     “..sounds fair enough, but how does it actually translate into benefitting the club if I were to join ?”

When the Trust was first set up in 2002, we had to specify some objectives to be detailed within the Society rules.  I have outlined these below – the first six (from memory) were suggested by Supporters Direct within the ‘model’ rules that were provided.  These were all hotly debated at the time, and I believe that we all agreed that they outlined well what we were hoping GTST would achieve.  The final objective was added by ourselves.

“The Society’s objects are, either itself or through a subsidiary company or society trading for the
benefit of the community and acting under its control:
i. to strengthen the bonds between the Club and the community which it serves and to
represent the interests of the community in the running of the Club;
ii. to benefit present and future members of the community served by the Club by
promoting encouraging and furthering the game of football as a recreational facility,
sporting activity and focus for community involvement;
iii. to further the development of the game of football nationally and internationally and
the upholding of its rules;
iv. to encourage the Club to take proper account of the interests of its supporters and of
the community it serves in its decisions;
v. to encourage and promote the principle of supporter representation on the board of
any company owning or controlling the Club and ultimately to be the vehicle for
democratic elections to the board;
vi. to promote, develop and respect the rights of members of the community served by
the Club and people dealing with the Society as set out in the Charter of Fundamental
Rights of the European Union, having regard in particular to the need to provide
information to members and conduct the affairs of the Society in accessible and
appropriate ways;
vii. to invest in the future of the Club both by assisting the Club in any way in connection
with youth coaching schemes and by encouraging younger supporters”.

Initially, GTST very much focussed on acquiring shares in GTFC.  Membership subscriptions and monies raised from other events (race nights, quiz nights etc) went towards share acquisition.  After a couple of years we decided to poll the members on what they wanted GTST to be doing with the funds raised – the response was investment in the youth setup.  Some articles that outline this can be found below – we have also continued to sponsor youth team players each season.
http://www.gtst.net/site/content/view/223/2/
http://www.gtst.net/site/content/view/269/2/

These objectives were, I feel, right for 2002, but may not be so right for 2011.  There is room in the constitution to make amend to these, however as with all democratic organisations changes have to be proposed, voted upon and agreed.  

2.  “What does the £15/year membership actually pay for? The running cost of GTST, GTFC shares, GTST voting rights ? “

Each member of GTST has one share in GTST (and therefore a single vote in any matters that are put to a vote).  Nominally, £1 of the annual membership fee pays for that one share.  There are administrative costs associated with running GTST (for example, we are required by law to submit audited accounts each year, and thus have to pay for auditing/examination), although we have always tried to keep these to a minimum.  Some investment has been made in the past in merchandise which has been sold at a profit.  Any resulting profits are put towards the objectives outlined above.  As previously mentioned, this has been focussed primarily on the youth setup in the last few years.

3.  “What advantage is there to buying shares via GTST and not the club ?”

It entirely depends on what your motives are.  The main advantage is that shares are held by the Supporters Trust, and not by any single individual.  GTST are entitled to attend the AGM and use the voting rights associated with any shares acquired in any matters that are put to vote.  The ideal is that the GTST member base would determine the way in which GTST votes in such matters (thus ensuring that the organisation is entirely democratic), however this has proved to be challenging in the past (although I am sure there are technical solutions that can resolve this).  In addition, GTST members can assign their proxy votes attached to any shares they may hold personally to GTST, thus increasing the number of votes that GTST has.  I appreciate that where we have two major shareholders in John Fenty and Mike Parker then this this is still a drop in the ocean, but I hope the principle is clear.

4.  “What issues do you vote on ?”.

Assuming this question relates to football club issues, then please see above.

5.  “HOW DOES ALL YOUR WORK ULTIMATELY BENEFIT THE SUPPORTERS OR THE CLUB ?”

I hope I have gone some way to answering this question.  Ultimately though, the benefits materialise thus:
•     Supporting the club financially
•     Having a say – albeit a small one – in matters that impact upon supporters.  As outlined in my original post, GTST were often consulted on matters that affected fans in the past.

6.  "I can be a member and have a say in an organisation that I don't know what it does or how it benefits the club or it's supporters ?"

I’ll draw your attention to the following sentence from my original post “At this moment in time, GTST could be described as dormant, at best”.  

When GTST was more active, we communicated regularly via the website, via member newsletters / email and via a column in the matchday programme about what we were up to.  At the present moment, there is not a lot to report, but if (and this is a big if) there were enough people willing to get involved, that could be easily rectified.

I absolutely take your point about communication; however this isn’t something I can do by myself.  Again, I will reference my original post “From experience, I envisage that it would take 15/20 willing volunteers with a good mix of skills to get things moving”.  Because GTST is an Industrial and Provident Society, and governed by the FSA, there is a lot of administrative work that has to be done to meet certain obligations, and these things can be pretty time consuming.  It’s best to spread the load as much as possible, else the burden is naturally placed on the shoulders of too few who just get fed up with being dumped upon.

For the final time, I will refer you back to my original post “I don’t think it’s my place to dictate what happens next, but maybe going back to square one wouldn’t be such a bad idea?”.  So yes, I absolutely agree that going back to basics would be a good idea and possibly a good starting point for the next chapter of GTST.

Finally, it’s clear that you have given this some considerable thought and have many valid points to make.  Assuming that a meeting is arranged in the next couple of weeks, I hope you could find the time to come along and get involved, and help to turn those thoughts and ideas into action.

Emma Blackbourn
GTST Chair

Quoted Text

Emma says you'll have to put up personal abuse, maybe she should expand it ?

Apart from the fact that females in football always seem to attract comments from the less forward thinking members of society, I specifically recieved personal abuse in reaction to an interview I gave to the GET prior to the Burton game.  Having read some of the 'we're gonna smash the town up' posts on here prior to the match, I responded to a question by the reporter about my thoughts should relegation be the outcome - my response was an appeal for calm.  For some reason, a few people thought this was utterly ludicrous.  Hey Ho.

Quoted from Grim_Exile

Apart from the fact that females in football always seem to attract comments from the less forward thinking members of society, I specifically recieved personal abuse in reaction to an interview I gave to the GET prior to the Burton game.  Having read some of the 'we're gonna smash the town up' posts on here prior to the match, I responded to a question by the reporter about my thoughts should relegation be the outcome - my response was an appeal for calm.  For some reason, a few people thought this was utterly ludicrous.  Hey Ho.

Shocking, and with that colour lipstick on as well

Dear Emma,

Thankyou very much for your reply and my apologies for responding a little late too (not that I am blaming you either !  )

Firstly please let me start by saying when I made reference to your comment about "personal abuse", my intention wasn't for you to "expand ON it".
I was just being a little sarcastic implying maybe you should "expand it" to be "personal abuse AND criticism" to cover some of the previous (possibly defensive) GTST members I offered my advice and suggestions to.

Anyway no matter...

Thank you for your offer to attend a meeting in the next couple of weeks.
I promise on my life I am not trying to be difficult, but due to my own unique circumstances and location, regret to say I genuinely have no way of being able to attend. (without incurring excessive difficulty and costs etc).
Saturdays could be an option but of course Town are normally playing !  
I regret to say I already have enough trouble attending nightime midweek games.  

Quick question if I may - presumably if I were to join GTST I would also need to vote in person ?

I'm certainly not suggesting you should have to make any special provision for myself whatsoever !
But ironically, I did have my own ideas relating to how the "on-line phenomenon" might be used as a vehicle to engage interest to a large and wider base of supporters.
Out of interest have you ever considered this ? (silly question maybe as you've already posted on here !  )

I very much appreciate you supplying all that information regarding the purpose of the trust and those articles about how you have helped support the youth team.
May I take this opportunity to say a very well done for helping the youth and GTFC with all your great support.  

One of my suggestions amounted to little more than saying all this information may be more valuable if it existed or was more visible on your website
i.e. 1 place where I can quickly access all I need to know !
I tried to explain this to Dave(tarka) and was disappointed he didn't seem to understand what I was really getting at...
I hope you may agree the fact I couldn't find it (I honestly tried fairly hard but wasn't going to spend hours searching !) perhaps makes my point ?
Anyway it's not a dig, because I know it has been left somewhat redundant, but still felt it's "mission statement" was a little vague.

I honestly do not mean to criticize unkindly - organising and planning any organisation or website takes a lot of time, thought and effort, is never ever "perfect" and I also appreciate fully how projects can be left on the backburner.
Without wanting to bog any website down with too much info, I just feel if it could all somehow be arranged into a more appealing layout with clear goals and a direct message about what it wants to achieve, then it might create a very favourable impression on it's visitors.
And maybe help raise a lot of money !

For example, I think you are far too modest with your achievements to date ?
As a visitor I would loved to have seen e.g. a big banner with "GTST helps raise £x for youth team !", "Help us secure.... !" + other exciting GTFC related fun things.

Please understand I am not suggesting that "I am right", because opinions will inevitably vary.
Neither am I purporting to be a marketing/web design expert (or maybe by my suggestions I am ! ), just giving my own view as supporter, end user and potential customer.

I found 2 particular points you brought to my attention quite interesting:

- v. to encourage and promote the principle of supporter representation on the board
- "GTST are entitled to attend the AGM and use the voting rights associated with any shares acquired in any matters that are put to vote."

I understand you cannot decide GTST policy alone but as chair or in your own personal opinion, are these things you would maybe personally consider in the short or long term future in advance of any AGM in November with the clubs future direction in the balance (and possibly crucial if Mr Parker has plans for a share takeover) ?

More generally, what are your own thoughts on the general direction of GTST if it were to be resurrected ?

I notice you said:
“From experience, I envisage that it would take 15/20 willing volunteers with a good mix of skills to get things moving”

I do not mean to be a pain because I understand you wish to debate, vote and decide on things later but I hope you will agree that for someone like myself, this is my only means of communication.

Do you think it's fair to say GTST has (at least so far) focused more on supporting the club and the community in it's efforts than pushing for large numbers of supporters to have a real voice in the clubs direction or running ?

This may be a bone of contention for myself who feels it may still be possible to create a framework to provide large amounts of supporters (not necessarily GTST members) with a voice on it's club's future direction or even day to day affairs.
However I also accept it may also be very much dependent on the club itself to agree !

I very much support and applaud all of your past and future efforts to raise money for our club, however I feel the question of offering my financial support to simply "raise money" may be an issue as things stand.
Not because I am not agreeable in principle(far from it) but simply because as a supporter who can help finance the club through attending BP, spending in the club shop etc, I feel I am unlikely to contribute £15 to an organisation that I cannot access to help decide on it's objectives.

However if that changes in the future or I see GTST adopt a new fundraising goal, then I will most likely be more than willing to contribute as generously as I can (depending on whether I think it is in the supporters interests to do so).

At the moment I am not overly excited by offering my support to most of those objectives you kindly provided, as I feel they serve the interests of the club, local and wider community (stretching as far as the EU !) moreso than the wishes of GTFC supporters, many of who may be currently concerned if they will have a club left.  

I am happy to offer to volunteer by proxy, but since I don't know enough about your future strategy yet, would be reluctant to risk disappointing you later if I found I was not agreeable to your specific aims or goals.

I do sincerely wish you and everyone connected with GTST the very best of luck in the future and look forward to being able to participate and donate.

If you need any assistance please don't hesitate to contact me on here and I wish you all the very best.  

Kind regards.

PS It's not a putdown I promise but may I suggest you change this bit ? (tbh it just made me chuckle !)

"We know that times are hard and that you probably think there are better things you can be spending your money on than joining the Trust or renewing your membership, but the number of youth team graduates in our first team squad and the emergence of youngsters like Josh Fuller are surely evidence that your cash won’t go to waste."

In all seriousness if you were to launch a campaign to e.g. save/protect the youth team or even the club, I'd be right behind you !
UTM.  

Can someone please send me details of how I can become a member of the Trust, and be actively involved with it please? I'm 250 miles away in bonny Scotland, so it would be physically impossible to attend a meeting but it doesn't mean I don't have the club at heart.
It hurts, from afar, to see what's happening to MY club, as two people who should know better waft their egos in public. I'll help in what ever way I can. Please pm me details of how I pay my £15 membership.