Well done GTFC and trust (again)

Felt it deserves it's own thread. Regards a club statement on the Papa Johns Trophy

[quote]We are, of course, very aware that many of our supporters have strong views about the Club’s participation in this competition and we, like the Mariners Trust, believe fans should be free to choose how they want to support their team.

Although the Club will face Premier League U21 teams in the competition this season, we wanted to reassure supporters that our Board is united in their opposition to the inclusion of any Under 21 or U23 teams joining the Football League, in any way.

UTM[quote]

well done 1878

Opting out altogether would be better if that were possible.

Quoted from moosey_club

Opting out altogether would be better if that were possible.

Pretty sure it isn't, unfortunately

It gives us a few games to try fringe players out at a fairly high level  so let’s just use it like that , it also might be the only chance people without season tickets get to see some games 😂

Hurst will take this relatively seriously, he wants to win every game so even if we don’t care, Hurst will.

The statement is carefully worded but shows that the club is connected to the fans.

It’s really sad though, if they just removed the u21/23 teams and left it to league 1 and 2 teams they’d gain support….

Remember when our previous chairman took moment out of his schedule syphoning the python of our previous owner to tell us it didn’t matter that the fans stayed away, the EFL were providing a sort of insurance money to cover the losses? Another dig at fans…how times have changed…

Isn’t this getting a bit boring now? B teams will never happen. Yes the EFL Trophy needs sorting but the PL have everyone by the short and curries.

If we all take their money in form of solidarity payments which in all 3 EFL divisions are worth more than the EFL TV money then you have to give something back. 1 game a season against an under 21 side. It could be a hell of lot worse.

Instead of crying over 2016’s fight maybe we should all focus our attentions on the next issue coming into view. i.e. The EFL Cup once all the European group stages expand and there’s no room in the calendar for the European qualifiers to enter their first team in the EFL Cup.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

Isn’t this getting a bit boring now? B teams will never happen. Yes the EFL Trophy needs sorting but the PL have everyone by the short and curries.

If we all take their money in form of solidarity payments which in all 3 EFL divisions are worth more than the EFL TV money then you have to give something back. 1 game a season against an under 21 side. It could be a hell of lot worse.

Instead of crying over 2016’s fight maybe we should all focus our attentions on the next issue coming into view. i.e. The EFL Cup once all the European group stages expand and there’s no room in the calendar for the European qualifiers to enter their first team in the EFL Cup.

I noticed there’s multiple dates for this bastardised competition which I’m assuming is based on European fixtures and possible league fixtures that are being replayed?

I also noticed they’ve added a fixture date on the same day as their flagship cup competitions second round…

Quoted from aldi_01

I noticed there’s multiple dates for this bastardised competition which I’m assuming is based on European fixtures and possible league fixtures that are being replayed?

I also noticed they’ve added a fixture date on the same day as their flagship cup competitions second round…

No it’s based on the group stage fixtures usually aligning with the international breaks when many of the under 21s are unavailable. That flaw has been in place since 2016.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

Isn’t this getting a bit boring now? B teams will never happen. Yes the EFL Trophy needs sorting but the PL have everyone by the short and curries.

If we all take their money in form of solidarity payments which in all 3 EFL divisions are worth more than the EFL TV money then you have to give something back. 1 game a season against an under 21 side. It could be a hell of lot worse.

Instead of crying over 2016’s fight maybe we should all focus our attentions on the next issue coming into view. i.e. The EFL Cup once all the European group stages expand and there’s no room in the calendar for the European qualifiers to enter their first team in the EFL Cup.

Nope, they still want to put B Teams into the pyramid. Can't give them an inch and legitimise this competition.

They will put together a package that sways greedy owners

Quoted from headingly_mariner

Nope, they still want to put B Teams into the pyramid. Can't give them an inch and legitimise this competition.

They will put together a package that sways greedy owners

Who are “they”?

Quoted from headingly_mariner

Nope, they still want to put B Teams into the pyramid. Can't give them an inch and legitimise this competition.

They will put together a package that sways greedy owners

This, there are plenty of moronic owners like fenty around that will think they 'have' to do the bidding of those who want b teams in order to get more money. Failing to understand that if they all get more money nobody is any better off really, and if they all didn't have it nobody is really any worse off.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

Who are “they”?

Well Greg Dyke obviously and the others on his group that put forward the proposal. Shaun Harvey said it wasn't the right time or something which kept his options open.

They may no longer be at the top of the game, I'm not sure, but even if not they will have been replaced with others who support the idea as they think only of the elite.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

Isn’t this getting a bit boring now? B teams will never happen. Yes the EFL Trophy needs sorting but the PL have everyone by the short and curries.

If we all take their money in form of solidarity payments which in all 3 EFL divisions are worth more than the EFL TV money then you have to give something back. 1 game a season against an under 21 side. It could be a hell of lot worse.

Instead of crying over 2016’s fight maybe we should all focus our attentions on the next issue coming into view. i.e. The EFL Cup once all the European group stages expand and there’s no room in the calendar for the European qualifiers to enter their first team in the EFL Cup.

They are already able to take our best young players for what is pennies to them whenever they want. Is that not enough already?

I've never really held much of an opinion either side regards B teams being in this competition. I get those who do have fierce opposition to the idea and hence why fans have stayed away from the competition as a form of protest.

There will inevitably be lower attendances for those games regardless, but I'm wondering whether it's time to shelve the protest aspect of non-attendance and try to get numbers into these games, solely for the reason of putting the extra £££s into the Club.

This last year has been incredible and all to a person we've highlighted on here how well run the Club has been and how investment has been made to strengthen not just the team but the Club as a whole. Season tickets show how well the fanbase is rallying around those improvements and maintaining the feel-good factor ready to attack next season head on.

Planning on EFL Trophy games being reduced ticket prices, I doubt they'll bring in mega-bucks, but even if it offered in the region of £20k from a good turn out, that's £20k towards that continued improvement.

I have every trust in how 1878 manage the Clubs budget and I have faith they'll offer as much as is humanly possible to PH, but perhaps a hook from them to try get people in to the games is to suggest that every penny from gate/food sales is added to the playing budget for the January window. Unlikely to be season-altering sums but I'm sure he wouldn't begrudge an extra few quid if we can get him it, especially if that small sum is the difference between getting a 'good' L2 player and a stand-out L2 player.

It’s amazing how many people say they “get” the protests, yet clearly do not get it at all.

You either have your principles or you don’t, regardless of how much money is waved in front of your face.  

Anyone thinking that fatigue in the protests hasn’t been factored in by the money men clearly hasn’t been paying attention. “Oooh maybe we should just give up, it’s boring now”. Imagine telling your kids THAT was your stance when you had the chance to stand up for your club.

Quoted from ska face

It’s amazing how many people say they “get” the protests, yet clearly do not get it at all.

You either have your principles or you don’t, regardless of how much money is waved in front of your face.  

Anyone thinking that fatigue in the protests hasn’t been factored in by the money men clearly hasn’t been paying attention. “Oooh maybe we should just give up, it’s boring now”. Imagine telling your kids THAT was your stance when you had the chance to stand up for your club.

I think it's possible to 'get' a persons view without sharing it yourself.

I'm always willing to learn however so re-educate me on your reasoning as to why this is a critical issue in need of protest. That's not an aggressive request by the way, that's a genuine interest in peoples views as to why it's a concern.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

Who are “they”?

The premier league, FA, big clubs and even people within the EFL.

The main reason solidarity payments are needed is because of the monster that the Premier League has created in our game.

intercourse 'em.  Sick and tired of the attitude that we should be grateful for what they give us.  The solidarity payments, the youth funding....it's absolute crumbs that they're brushing off the top table and the Football League are sitting there waiting for it like lapdogs.  

If anyone honestly believes that the Premier League still doesn't want to have Under 23/21's in the pyramid then ask yourself why are they still in this competition?  3 guaranteed games a season against under strength sides from well down the pyramid.   If they wanted games they would get more from trying to enter sides into the reserve leagues such as the Central League.  They've made no attempts to do so because it wouldn't suit the wider agenda.

People start creeping back into watch these games then it justifies the move.  All it takes is for attendances to be there or thereabouts what they were pre-2016.  That then sends the message that they can grind it out, they can wear us down and get what they want.  

Next step will be Under 23 teams in the League Cup, with some bizarre conditions that they can't play each other, so in the event that Spurs Under 23's draw Spurs then the first team get a bye. That'll go on with protests for a little while, until people get worn down and drawn back in with offers to see 'The Next Generation' for a fiver and they'll be justified that gates are returned....It's a long drawn out plan.  

Stay strong people.  Flinch now and they'll take advantage, refuse to budge and they'll eventually have to accept defeat.

Quoted from toontown

This, there are plenty of moronic owners like fenty around that will think they 'have' to do the bidding of those who want b teams in order to get more money. Failing to understand that if they all get more money nobody is any better off really, and if they all didn't have it nobody is really any worse off.

But the point is what?
The Board/Trust have said they have " opposition to the inclusion of any Under 21 or U23 teams joining the Football League, in any way."  The fans (most?) are happy with GTFC being on their side and now what?
Does PH send a team out made up of tea ladies, ball boys, and the kit man, being thrashed 22-0, and that will show "them", a poke in the eye, they'll never forget? Or do fans stay away, and starve the club of money that it requires for the next push.? In the meantime for and against buying tickets for these games can turn nasty like last time.
Playing to the gallery might get them instant gratification, but in the long run, will only show a poor decision which I thought we had turned a corner on.
The board should keep their politics and push at the EFL. Now what will they say when only 50 punters turn up to a game?

It’s an unfortunate situation as it is something we have to play in. It’s not going to go away and the only way I can see this even marginally being ok is if the team consisted of all English (British?) players. Though, what sort of experience it actually gives them is lost on me.

When players are being paid£xxx thousand a week and clubs are struggling with debt I think it’s obvious to all where the problems are

Quoted from GrimPol

But the point is what?
The Board/Trust have said they have " opposition to the inclusion of any Under 21 or U23 teams joining the Football League, in any way."  The fans (most?) are happy with GTFC being on their side and now what?
Does PH send a team out made up of tea ladies, ball boys, and the kit man, being thrashed 22-0, and that will show "them", a poke in the eye, they'll never forget? Or do fans stay away, and starve the club of money that it requires for the next push.? In the meantime for and against buying tickets for these games can turn nasty like last time.
Playing to the gallery might get them instant gratification, but in the long run, will only show a poor decision which I thought we had turned a corner on.
The board should keep their politics and push at the EFL. Now what will they say when only 50 punters turn up to a game?

Sorry I don't understand what point your making? What will who say when 50 punters turn up? Who is them getting instant gratification? Are you talking about the board - I just don't get what point you are making.

Quoted from diehardmariner

The main reason solidarity payments are needed is because of the monster that the Premier League has created in our game.

intercourse 'em.  Sick and tired of the attitude that we should be grateful for what they give us.  The solidarity payments, the youth funding....it's absolute crumbs that they're brushing off the top table and the Football League are sitting there waiting for it like lapdogs.  

If anyone honestly believes that the Premier League still doesn't want to have Under 23/21's in the pyramid then ask yourself why are they still in this competition?  3 guaranteed games a season against under strength sides from well down the pyramid.   If they wanted games they would get more from trying to enter sides into the reserve leagues such as the Central League.  They've made no attempts to do so because it wouldn't suit the wider agenda.

People start creeping back into watch these games then it justifies the move.  All it takes is for attendances to be there or thereabouts what they were pre-2016.  That then sends the message that they can grind it out, they can wear us down and get what they want.  

Next step will be Under 23 teams in the League Cup, with some bizarre conditions that they can't play each other, so in the event that Spurs Under 23's draw Spurs then the first team get a bye. That'll go on with protests for a little while, until people get worn down and drawn back in with offers to see 'The Next Generation' for a fiver and they'll be justified that gates are returned....It's a long drawn out plan.  

Stay strong people.  Flinch now and they'll take advantage, refuse to budge and they'll eventually have to accept defeat.

Perhaps I'm just a bit too naive or too trusting with things when it comes to things like this. I'm not swayed either way with U23 teams being in the EFL Trophy. I AM against U23/B Teams being in the EFL League structure. I know the argument from Clubs/FA is that the players within these teams need to be better challenged in order for them to reach their full potential, which playing within an U23 league doesn't achieve. I see that argument but I don't believe that's the only way around it, loans worked out perfectly well for Harry Kane amongst many others, as would big clubs placing faith in their talent as we've seen with Phil Foden.

These teams playing in the EFL Trophy is a compromise based on the fact the EFL won't allow them in to the League structure. The competition from it's existing Clubs, not to mention the growing standard of Clubs in VNL & VNN/VNS means it isn't feasible. This is where I'm maybe too trusting in that the EFL will maintain that position without the need of protest from fans, it seems too obvious a scenario to warrant it.

As for the EFL Trophy, it was always a reduced interest competition anyway. Until a team started reaching the final stages and the prospect of Wembley was on the horizon it was rarely of interest to my recollection. No-one ever cried if we went out in the group stages as it allowed more concentration on the League, which is always number one priority.

Perhaps I'm in a minority based on not seeing a risk of U23 sides getting into the EFL but that's why I'm not fiercely in opposition. I'd rather them not be in it but it doesn't really make much difference in my eyes. If I was more inclined to believe the EFL would let U23 sides in then perhaps I'd be more against it all.

The wedge is slowly but surely being driven in.

Resist at all costs and boycott this sham of a competition.

The only way that the EFL clubs will really make a stand is by boycotting the final when it’s on Sky . An empty Wembley would be the ultimate show of solidarity against the PL and Sky £££ .

The fact that this issue is being discussed again, and we have an increasing amount of fans stating their apathy (rather than outright rejection of B-teams) only goes to show that the fight has to remain.

Enough people go 'meh' and don't hold decision-makers to account, that's when the PL and EFL walk all over us.

Quoted from GrimPol

But the point is what?
The Board/Trust have said they have " opposition to the inclusion of any Under 21 or U23 teams joining the Football League, in any way."  The fans (most?) are happy with GTFC being on their side and now what?
Does PH send a team out made up of tea ladies, ball boys, and the kit man, being thrashed 22-0, and that will show "them", a poke in the eye, they'll never forget? Or do fans stay away, and starve the club of money that it requires for the next push.? In the meantime for and against buying tickets for these games can turn nasty like last time.
Playing to the gallery might get them instant gratification, but in the long run, will only show a poor decision which I thought we had turned a corner on.
The board should keep their politics and push at the EFL. Now what will they say when only 50 punters turn up to a game?

It sends a message that we as fans don't accept a competition that includes b teams.

It's an insult to our History. It's not people staying away that will starve the club of money, it is the format of the competition.

I would attend all the home games if B Teams weren't in the competition. I have a season ticket and go away. I won't set foot in any papa johns game.

People accepting and attending these games is short sighted and bad for unfashionable club's like ours.

Quoted from gtfc_chris

Perhaps I'm just a bit too naive or too trusting with things when it comes to things like this. I'm not swayed either way with U23 teams being in the EFL Trophy. I AM against U23/B Teams being in the EFL League structure. I know the argument from Clubs/FA is that the players within these teams need to be better challenged in order for them to reach their full potential, which playing within an U23 league doesn't achieve. I see that argument but I don't believe that's the only way around it, loans worked out perfectly well for Harry Kane amongst many others, as would big clubs placing faith in their talent as we've seen with Phil Foden.

These teams playing in the EFL Trophy is a compromise based on the fact the EFL won't allow them in to the League structure. The competition from it's existing Clubs, not to mention the growing standard of Clubs in VNL & VNN/VNS means it isn't feasible. This is where I'm maybe too trusting in that the EFL will maintain that position without the need of protest from fans, it seems too obvious a scenario to warrant it.

As for the EFL Trophy, it was always a reduced interest competition anyway. Until a team started reaching the final stages and the prospect of Wembley was on the horizon it was rarely of interest to my recollection. No-one ever cried if we went out in the group stages as it allowed more concentration on the League, which is always number one priority.

Perhaps I'm in a minority based on not seeing a risk of U23 sides getting into the EFL but that's why I'm not fiercely in opposition. I'd rather them not be in it but it doesn't really make much difference in my eyes. If I was more inclined to believe the EFL would let U23 sides in then perhaps I'd be more against it all.

Unfortunately I think you're definitely too trusting on the issue.

If I get chance later I'll look for some quotes from those in positions of power on this that directly link the Under 23's in the EFL Trophy to their participation in the Football League itself.   Believe me, that is their agenda.  This is a way to push the door open ajar for them to kick it in with their Under 23 teams in the competition.

If the 2016/17 competition saw no decrease in gates, that would have been enough for the entry within 2 seasons for Under 23 teams into the football pyramid.  That's all it would have taken.  Idiots like Shaun Harvey believed that getting cosy with the Premier League would see him viewed in favour when it came to getting a job further down the line with them.  Idiots like some non-chairmen felt it would view them in greater esteem higher up the food chain and/or were swayed by that dribble of cash that was dangled down like a poisoned carrot.

There's absolutely no way the Premier League sides want to put their Under 23's through 3 games against similar age groups at less developed academy set-ups.  Because that's what the trophy is.  No way at all, unless they've got an ulterior motive.  Clubs like Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool et al. stockpile kids in their Academy systems.  They don't have enough games available for them all to get competitive action.  Unless these lads get game time it's difficult for them to develop and then be sold on for a big profit (this is a huge market for clubs, Chelsea especially).  The loan market is fine and has worked well previously, but so called elite clubs are becoming more untrusting of it.  1) There's the fear that they loan players out and they'll enjoy the actual feeling of being involved at a first-team set-up and want to stay away from their parent club. 2) They can't control their development if they're on loan at Accrington or Leyton Orient (which I do understand to an extent). 3) There's a risk that their prized assets are shown up in the lower leagues which massively impacts on their value.  

Forgive me but I don't understand your point about a compromise.  Why on earth should there be any sort of compromise?  We don't owe the Premier League anything.  When the motion was put on the table to introduce Under 23 teams at any level in the EFL structure it should have been voted down unconditionally.  

If you trust the same powers that were happy to go behind everyone's back to set up a European Super League on this matter then that's your choice.  But I absolutely don't trust any of the cretins that have pushed this agenda forward and I'll remain firm in my non-support for this competition until the Under 23's are removed from it.  It wasn't the best competition in the world, you're absolutely right.  It was generally poorly attended and of no interest to anyone until the very final stages.  But this isn't about the integrity of a crappy competition that no-one cares for.  It's about nipping this agenda in the bud now rather than letting Under 23 teams creep in and opening a massive can of worms that we'll never be able to put back in.

I notice that the Scottish Lowland Football League (one step below the Scottish Professional Football League) has had Rangers 'B' and Celtic 'B' teams playing in it during the last season. Reportedly, the SLFL themselves approached the Old Firm clubs to ask them to enter 'B' teams in their league.

I'd imagine they were thinking about getting some extra gate money in but they are at the start of a slippery slope. Yes, Scottish football is crap at the moment, but I suspect that Old Firm 'B' teams would be at Scottish Championship level of ability so I reckon with their toe in the door of their pyramid, it will only be a matter of time before they are in the SPFL itself.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Unfortunately I think you're definitely too trusting on the issue.

If I get chance later I'll look for some quotes from those in positions of power on this that directly link the Under 23's in the EFL Trophy to their participation in the Football League itself.   Believe me, that is their agenda.  This is a way to push the door open ajar for them to kick it in with their Under 23 teams in the competition.

If the 2016/17 competition saw no decrease in gates, that would have been enough for the entry within 2 seasons for Under 23 teams into the football pyramid.  That's all it would have taken.  Idiots like Shaun Harvey believed that getting cosy with the Premier League would see him viewed in favour when it came to getting a job further down the line with them.  Idiots like some non-chairmen felt it would view them in greater esteem higher up the food chain and/or were swayed by that dribble of cash that was dangled down like a poisoned carrot.

There's absolutely no way the Premier League sides want to put their Under 23's through 3 games against similar age groups at less developed academy set-ups.  Because that's what the trophy is.  No way at all, unless they've got an ulterior motive.  Clubs like Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool et al. stockpile kids in their Academy systems.  They don't have enough games available for them all to get competitive action.  Unless these lads get game time it's difficult for them to develop and then be sold on for a big profit (this is a huge market for clubs, Chelsea especially).  The loan market is fine and has worked well previously, but so called elite clubs are becoming more untrusting of it.  1) There's the fear that they loan players out and they'll enjoy the actual feeling of being involved at a first-team set-up and want to stay away from their parent club. 2) They can't control their development if they're on loan at Accrington or Leyton Orient (which I do understand to an extent). 3) There's a risk that their prized assets are shown up in the lower leagues which massively impacts on their value.  

Forgive me but I don't understand your point about a compromise.  Why on earth should there be any sort of compromise?  We don't owe the Premier League anything.  When the motion was put on the table to introduce Under 23 teams at any level in the EFL structure it should have been voted down unconditionally.  

If you trust the same powers that were happy to go behind everyone's back to set up a European Super League on this matter then that's your choice.  But I absolutely don't trust any of the cretins that have pushed this agenda forward and I'll remain firm in my non-support for this competition until the Under 23's are removed from it.  It wasn't the best competition in the world, you're absolutely right.  It was generally poorly attended and of no interest to anyone until the very final stages.  But this isn't about the integrity of a crappy competition that no-one cares for.  It's about nipping this agenda in the bud now rather than letting Under 23 teams creep in and opening a massive can of worms that we'll never be able to put back in.

The compromise part wasn't my personal view, it's a take on being rejected for League entry but offered a place in this competition - a compromise between EFL and Premier League.

My trust is more with the EFL than the elite Clubs or PL. The EFL - I can't imagine - had anything to do with the Euro Super League. I was and still am against that. Your point about pole climbers makes sense and maybe there is scope that whoever agrees the U23 sides into a League Structure opens up job opportunities, we know that happens in many industries. I've never been that deep a thinker or conspiracy theorist to really worry about such things, hence being very trusting.

If people are concerned about the club losing money from a boycott, just spend more in the club shop or donate to the youth setup.

Quoted from gtfc_chris

The compromise part wasn't my personal view, it's a take on being rejected for League entry but offered a place in this competition - a compromise between EFL and Premier League.

My trust is more with the EFL than the elite Clubs or PL. The EFL - I can't imagine - had anything to do with the Euro Super League. I was and still am against that. Your point about pole climbers makes sense and maybe there is scope that whoever agrees the U23 sides into a League Structure opens up job opportunities, we know that happens in many industries. I've never been that deep a thinker or conspiracy theorist to really worry about such things, hence being very trusting.

The point about those in positions of power within the EFL selling clubs like ours down the river on the B teams issue is really important. The likes of shaun Harvey always have one eye on the possibility of a potentially lucrative job in the premiership when supposedly negotiating with them on behalf of the EFL. Either directly or at least indirectly, that is part of their equation. They wouldn't give two hoots about clubs being forced out of league 1 and 2 in order to make way for b teams if it suited their job prospects d earnings. This EFL trophy thing is just the beginning.

Quoted from gtfc_chris

The compromise part wasn't my personal view, it's a take on being rejected for League entry but offered a place in this competition - a compromise between EFL and Premier League.

My trust is more with the EFL than the elite Clubs or PL. The EFL - I can't imagine - had anything to do with the Euro Super League. I was and still am against that. Your point about pole climbers makes sense and maybe there is scope that whoever agrees the U23 sides into a League Structure opens up job opportunities, we know that happens in many industries. I've never been that deep a thinker or conspiracy theorist to really worry about such things, hence being very trusting.

Yes, apologies I realise it wasn't your personal view regards compromise.  But my point was that there shouldn't have been a compromise offered to start with.  The EFL should have shut up shop and said straight away no to any suggestion of Academy teams in their structure.  That they felt any need to engage in the process and offer any end of the wedge, regardless how thin, was foolish.

I don't trust the EFL at all.  I've yet to see anything in modern times that suggests they've anything but their own interests at heart.  Unfortunately, as a members organisation, their power lies with the membership and that's largely weak and happy to wag their tail at whoever offers the slightest bit of bone.

Quoted from toontown

Sorry I don't understand what point your making? What will who say when 50 punters turn up? Who is them getting instant gratification? Are you talking about the board - I just don't get what point you are making.

Q   What will who say when 50 punters turn up?       A .   What will the Club say when 50 punters turn at a PJ game.
Q    Who is them getting instant gratification?           A .  The Club/Trust
Q   I just don't get what point you are making         A.     The point I'm making is that the Board/Trust put out a statement, leaving PH in an invidious position
                                                                                   and splitting the fanbase.

Quoted from headingly_mariner

Nope, they still want to put B Teams into the pyramid. Can't give them an inch and legitimise this competition.

They will put together a package that sways greedy owners

Where did this leap from Trophy and U21  teams to B teams in the future come from? Was it from some PL Blue Sky thinking paper, or an overactive conspiracy theory?

The EFL are meant to have the best interests of their 72 clubs at heart.

Each of those clubs is utterly dependent on fans, and I reckon the fans will be close to unanimous in rejecting U23 sides from joining any competition, let alone the league.

So, the reason why the EFL won't listen to the fans, and therefore their member clubs, is simple.

Money. Self-preservation. Greed.

It's at the top of the EFL, other institutions, the government and the media. People constantly protecting themselves by pursuing money and selling anyone that gets in their way down the river.

If left unchecked, this is exactly what the EFL will do to its clubs, if it means a small 'elite' group are able to profit further. Rich get richer, poor get poorer.

Of course it's fine to ask the questions. I've asked enough and I would never trust the EFL. I simply don't believe it has the best interests of its member clubs at heart. If it did, the B-teams thing would never have got off the ground.

Quoted from EvilFish

If people are concerned about the club losing money from a boycott, just spend more in the club shop or donate to the youth setup.

When I'm in the shop buying stuff I don't need, will the Mariners actually hear me on the pitch shouting encouragement from the shop??

Quoted from GrimPol

When I'm in the shop buying stuff I don't need, will the Mariners actually hear me on the pitch shouting encouragement from the shop??

I'm sure they'll cope...

There is no 'slippery slope' toward loss of liberties, only a long staircase where each step downward must first be tolerated by the American people

quote from Alan Simpson, a US politician, which for me sums up what people are saying.
we've gone down the first step where EFL have accepted B  teams into their crappy little cup
we go down another step when the fans accept/ embrace this
another step down is accepting B teams into the League Cup
the enxt step down is fans accepting that

and so on and so on


On another scale look how Putin & Orban work - start small , then ratchet things up inch by inch and in a way that it's difficult to find a 'red line' point when they can actually be opposed and defeated

Quoted from male private Johnson

They are already able to take our best young players for what is pennies to them whenever they want. Is that not enough already?

I’m not defending them or agreeing with them. But the fact is if you take money off the PL you are going to have to dance to their tune under the current way football is governed.

Quoted from headingly_mariner

The premier league, FA, big clubs and even people within the EFL.

The EFL are the 72 clubs. The people on the board and in power etc… are appointed directly or indirectly by the clubs. Which is why there will never be B teams in the league system.

The only people I’ve seen quoted as forwarding B teams are no longer involved in football administration are they?

Maybe concentrate on what’s coming. The PL are slowly working towards unpicking everything in Tracey Crouch’s report.

If her recommendations are fully implemented then we all get everything we want.

That’s my point. Don’t whine on about a battle from 2016 that was 90% won. More egregious things are coming around the corner. Maybe focus on opposing them?

Are the two mutually exclusive?

Quoted from RichMariner

The EFL are meant to have the best interests of their 72 clubs at heart.

Each of those clubs is utterly dependent on fans, and I reckon the fans will be close to unanimous in rejecting U23 sides from joining any competition, let alone the league.

So, the reason why the EFL won't listen to the fans, and therefore their member clubs, is simple.

Money. Self-preservation. Greed.

It's at the top of the EFL, other institutions, the government and the media. People constantly protecting themselves by pursuing money and selling anyone that gets in their way down the river.

If left unchecked, this is exactly what the EFL will do to its clubs, if it means a small 'elite' group are able to profit further. Rich get richer, poor get poorer.

Of course it's fine to ask the questions. I've asked enough and I would never trust the EFL. I simply don't believe it has the best interests of its member clubs at heart. If it did, the B-teams thing would never have got off the ground.

The EFL do have the 72 clubs best interest at heart.

But the PL held a gun to everyone’s head in 2016 when negotiating solidarity payments. Are 24 L1 clubs going to reject £975,000 a year each from the PL and the L2 clubs £650,000 a year over the EFL Trophy.

Take a look at the accounts of clubs in L1 & L2. The clubs can’t afford to lose that sort of money and begrudgingly fell into line.

In a similar way that the Trust did when Fenty demanded £200,000 of shares. Nobody wanted to do it but enough weren’t willing to say “no” and face the potential consequences.

Quoted from ska face

Are the two mutually exclusive?

Yes.

its an absolutely ridiculous, its a big fat NO from me.

Quoted from GrimPol

Where did this leap from Trophy and U21  teams to B teams in the future come from? Was it from some PL Blue Sky thinking paper, or an overactive conspiracy theory?

Greg dykes (fa chairman at the time) 4 point proposal of 2014 of which b teams was the main proposal. Efl chairman at the time Greg Clarke sat on the commission that proposed it. Allowing b teams into the trophy was a direct result of that.

https://www.theguardian.com/fo.....three-non-eu-players

https://www.independent.co.uk/.....bteams-10081423.html

Quoted from Maringer

I notice that the Scottish Lowland Football League (one step below the Scottish Professional Football League) has had Rangers 'B' and Celtic 'B' teams playing in it during the last season. Reportedly, the SLFL themselves approached the Old Firm clubs to ask them to enter 'B' teams in their league.

I'd imagine they were thinking about getting some extra gate money in but they are at the start of a slippery slope. Yes, Scottish football is crap at the moment, but I suspect that Old Firm 'B' teams would be at Scottish Championship level of ability so I reckon with their toe in the door of their pyramid, it will only be a matter of time before they are in the SPFL itself.

This used to happen in England. During the 1960's I regularly used to watch Grimsby Town Reserves play in the old Midland League against teams like Goole Town and Belper.

Quoted from rancido

This used to happen in England. During the 1960's I regularly used to watch Grimsby Town Reserves play in the old Midland League against teams like Goole Town and Belper.

Grantham Town’s academy side are playing in the United Counties League Division 1 this season. Only 2 divisions below Grantham Town, Cleethorpes Town & Grimsby Borough in the Northern Premier League Division One East.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

Yes.

In what way?

Quoted from ska face

In what way?

Under 21 sides in the EFL Trophy was the consequence of PL solidarity payment negotiations and there being no sponsor for the EFL Trophy in place for the 2016/17 season. The PL had the EFL over a barrel.

That isn’t the case now. It’s the PL on the back foot trying to ridicule, water down and ultimately abandon the Tracey Crouch report. The threat of it has seen the greedy 6 and the other 14 reunite:

Which is why clubs like our in the EFL should be campaigning for full implementation of the Tracey Crouch report.

There’s zero capital to be gained from bringing up a fight from 2016 that was 90% won when the Tracey Crouch report would allow, if implemented, the EFL to tell the PL to **** off and throw the under 21 sides out of the EFL Trophy.

If you are going to try and kill a snake you don’t do it by targeting it’s tail.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

The EFL do have the 72 clubs best interest at heart.

But the PL held a gun to everyone’s head in 2016 when negotiating solidarity payments. Are 24 L1 clubs going to reject £975,000 a year each from the PL and the L2 clubs £650,000 a year over the EFL Trophy.

Take a look at the accounts of clubs in L1 & L2. The clubs can’t afford to lose that sort of money and begrudgingly fell into line.

In a similar way that the Trust did when Fenty demanded £200,000 of shares. Nobody wanted to do it but enough weren’t willing to say “no” and face the potential consequences.

So, hypothetically, in 2023, if the PL held a gun to the EFL's head and offered L1 and L2 clubs £3m each in return for accepting B-teams, and given the precedent set in 2016, do you think the EFL will have the nerve and the backbone to reject it?

Let's be honest, the PL is awash with cash. It could easily afford to do that.

So I disagree. My hunch is that the EFL are prone to buckle and I don't trust that they have our best interests at heart. If they see enough £££ they'll sell us down the river and it'll be up to the fans to unite and fight against it.

Quoted from RichMariner

So, hypothetically, in 2023, if the PL held a gun to the EFL's head and offered L1 and L2 clubs £3m each in return for accepting B-teams, and given the precedent set in 2016, do you think the EFL will have the nerve and the backbone to reject it?

Let's be honest, the PL is awash with cash. It could easily afford to do that.

So I disagree. My hunch is that the EFL are prone to buckle and I don't trust that they have our best interests at heart. If they see enough £££ they'll sell us down the river and it'll be up to the fans to unite and fight against it.

It’s not worth answered that because that (the financial offer) is not going to happen.

Quoted from RichMariner

So, hypothetically, in 2023, if the PL held a gun to the EFL's head and offered L1 and L2 clubs £3m each in return for accepting B-teams, and given the precedent set in 2016, do you think the EFL will have the nerve and the backbone to reject it?

Let's be honest, the PL is awash with cash. It could easily afford to do that.

So I disagree. My hunch is that the EFL are prone to buckle and I don't trust that they have our best interests at heart. If they see enough £££ they'll sell us down the river and it'll be up to the fans to unite and fight against it.

Actually, I have a question…

When you say “the EFL” who are you referring to?

Quoted from RichMariner

So, hypothetically, in 2023, if the PL held a gun to the EFL's head and offered L1 and L2 clubs £3m each in return for accepting B-teams, and given the precedent set in 2016, do you think the EFL will have the nerve and the backbone to reject it?

Let's be honest, the PL is awash with cash. It could easily afford to do that.

So I disagree. My hunch is that the EFL are prone to buckle and I don't trust that they have our best interests at heart. If they see enough £££ they'll sell us down the river and it'll be up to the fans to unite and fight against it.

Being cynical, do you mean brown envelopes?

Quoted from GollyGTFC

Under 21 sides in the EFL Trophy was the consequence of PL solidarity payment negotiations and there being no sponsor for the EFL Trophy in place for the 2016/17 season. The PL had the EFL over a barrel.

That isn’t the case now. It’s the PL on the back foot trying to ridicule, water down and ultimately abandon the Tracey Crouch report. The threat of it has seen the greedy 6 and the other 14 reunite:

Which is why clubs like our in the EFL should be campaigning for full implementation of the Tracey Crouch report.

There’s zero capital to be gained from bringing up a fight from 2016 that was 90% won when the Tracey Crouch report would allow, if implemented, the EFL to tell the PL to **** off and throw the under 21 sides out of the EFL Trophy.

If you are going to try and kill a snake you don’t do it by targeting it’s tail.

So what you meant to say was “no, they aren’t mutually exclusive”, rather than “yes”.

There’s nothing in your post that precludes people protesting against the continued existence of u21 youth teams in our competition, as well as the broader issue of Crouch’s reforms.

You won’t get rid of weeds by cutting the heads off, the whole thing needs to be removed.

Quoted from ska face

So what you meant to say was “no, they aren’t mutually exclusive”, rather than “yes”.

There’s nothing in your post that precludes people protesting against the continued existence of u21 youth teams in our competition, as well as the broader issue of Crouch’s reforms.

You won’t get rid of weeds by cutting the heads off, the whole thing needs to be removed.

Serious question…

Do you think the EFL Trophy will still exist in a couple of years or will we be left with just the EFL Cup without the Premier League clubs?

Quoted from rancido

This used to happen in England. During the 1960's I regularly used to watch Grimsby Town Reserves play in the old Midland League against teams like Goole Town and Belper.

But there was no pyramid back in those days with guaranteed promotion and relegation as there is in the modern era. Teams were elected in and out of the League on occasion, but the membership of the Midland League was relatively static. There was no promotion or relegation in the Midland League, for instance, so clubs joined and left but not through success or failure.

I'm sure that the SLFL has some sort of a rule or regulation which disallows promotion of the Old Firm B teams, but the thin end of the wedge is in now and the direction of travel tends to be one way in these situations.

Quoted from toontown

Greg dykes (fa chairman at the time) 4 point proposal of 2014 of which b teams was the main proposal. Efl chairman at the time Greg Clarke sat on the commission that proposed it. Allowing b teams into the trophy was a direct result of that.

https://www.theguardian.com/fo.....three-non-eu-players

https://www.independent.co.uk/.....bteams-10081423.html

Whilst I can see that the U21 @ PJ Trophy is part of the Greg Dyke and even Greg Clarke introduced it in the Project Big Picture, however, the current chair,  Rick Parry, is against it.