I don’t think we are alone in not being able to defend. In the the last three seasons the average goals per game In league 2 has been just over 2.3 this season it is currently over 3. Of the teams who have been to BP this season only Mansfield and Wimbledon looked they could defend. Given all the fretting about a shortage of strikers a search for effective defenders is equally important.
People were moaning about being defensive, not looking to attack but defend. Now we've gone the other way as they were advocating they are moaning that we are conceding too many. What do you want, attacking football leaving gaps at the back, or defensive football, setting up to not concede but not score? Is attack the best way to defend?
Surprised at how many goals we’ve conceded in a similar fashion where a long ball is played into a striker, one CB goes out to challenge and everything behind him just falls apart. We seem to end up with massive gaps for attackers to advance into, without being tracked by midfielders.
The two last night are easily remedied - nothing too complicated about marking at corners or being switched on at the back post, but it’s the ones like the first on Saturday that need a dressing.
Surprised at how many goals we’ve conceded in a similar fashion where a long ball is played into a striker, one CB goes out to challenge and everything behind him just falls apart. We seem to end up with massive gaps for attackers to advance into, without being tracked by midfielders.
The two last night are easily remedied - nothing too complicated about marking at corners or being switched on at the back post, but it’s the ones like the first on Saturday that need a dressing.
Morecambes first - in my book - was an error on Mahers part. He got right underneath the ball and his header went backwards as opposed to forwards where it should have gone. If he'd have left it then Glennon is right behind it to deal with.
I think the standard of coaching in England has risen over the last 20 years, we're seeing the results of it with some of the elite players and we see it in the quality of the football on show in the Premier League. Foreign managers come in an advance philosophies and ideas and the FA have been good at re-inventing their coaching courses to reflect that no one set way of working brings success. As a result, coaches at all levels continually learn from one another and adopt ideas and principles to further the game at all levels.
I think this is becoming evident in L2 more and more, where teams like Notts Co, Mansfield and even Barrow play very nice football. I think we have for many parts of this season. I think that a lot of teams are moving away from the historic, stereotypical "lump the ball forward" approach and looking to "play through the thirds".
With a possession based approach though you need to focus on creating space. Trying to play in a tighter area only plays into the hands of the opposition who can close down more easily and reduce passing angles making it more difficult for the team on the ball to find penetrative passes.
The flip side to that is that on transition when the ball is lost, a defensive line can be stretched and allow for more successful counter attacks against you. If you try to combat that by keeping a tighter defensive line then you lose the space (width) needed to facilitate the possession based approach. Add to that the increased risk of individual error from defenders when looking to play out then it's understandable that more goals will be conceded.
It's one of the things I find frustrating when reading or hearing people suggest we should "just do this..", because everything is in balance. If we felt that we could outscore anyone, and 3-2, 4-3, 5-4 (insert high scoring figures as desired) would we be bothered about the conceded column? If winning 3-2 is worrying and we need to be better defensively then it's reasonable to expect that we'd sacrifice some attacking efficiency. It's not impossible of course but finding that balance can take a long time, not least because each opposition play differently, but of course we're not supposed to worry about that....
Watching the Morecambe game what was most noticeable for me, and I think a potential real game changer for us solely with us as the focus, was our progressive tempo. When we got the ball, we looked to play through the thirds but without rushing, we played with intent. Under PH, we tried the same thing but at a much slower pace. As above, there'll be some cheap goals conceded as a result I'd wager but I'd also forgive that if we maintain the same tempo in our efforts to win the game.
There's definitely a visible change in the approach of most teams in this league. Much more attack focused, lots of high press, playing out from the back, expansive tactics etc. All in it's just more open.
You only have to look at our evolution of players over the last 6 months. Mullarkey and Rodgers, arguably better going forward than the two they've effectively replaced (Efete and Waterfall) but less capable defensively, at least on the form the latter two showed in previous seasons. Even further forward, we're far more open. Morecambe's second goal came (or at least the threat started) when Eisa didn't bother putting a foot in. We wouldn't have tolerated that before, not a chance. We aren't the only team who have gone for more of a attack based approach.
The quality has increased too. Wrexham, Stockport et al have brought in attacking players who are head and shoulders above this level. That has a knock on because with the likes of Louie Barry running the show for Stockport, it frees up the guys at Edgely Park that he's replaced to go and operate for someone else in League Two. I'm not convinced the trickle down of quality has come to defences though, not yet. It's almost an imbalance between attack and defence.
But in the large we're not conceding goals because of the above, it's because we're not doing the basics. Tracking runners, marking effectively, not giving free headers, staying goal side. I don't believe that it's unfixable. There's decent defenders in our squad, they're just switching off too often.
When Limbrick got the caretaker job in 2019 his biggest achievement was that he installed organisation into the side and drilled them to be quite a structured unit. It took time and he wasn't blessed with results whilst he was doing this, but it was badly needed. Davies and Pearson have certainly installed a bit of belief and attacking guile to our play, if they can crack the attention of the defence too then I'll be delighted.
We are certainly more on the front foot & putting more men into advanced positions but the two we conceded last night & the one on saturday are just basic errors nothing to do with leaving gaps , keeper needs to come & punch first one & amos or maher should deal with 2nd at back post , i'd rather see us win 3-2 or draw 3-3 having a go than sat back nicking a 0-0 so i'm rather chilled , can see a 4-3 either way saturday & if it goes against us i might just change my mind utm
Morecambes first - in my book - was an error on Mahers part. He got right underneath the ball and his header went backwards as opposed to forwards where it should have gone. If he'd have left it then Glennon is right behind it to deal with.
Well yeah obviously there’s an individual error in there, but I don’t understand how 2 midfielders are then allowed to stroll through so easily. The scorer starts 5 yards behind Holohan when Maher makes the header, by the time he scored he’s 10 yards ahead. It’s Andrews’ man who plays him through, also stood the wrong side of him.
Similar story where runners aren’t tracked against Tranmere, Barrow, Swindon, Crawley twice, what should’ve been a goal v Mansfield, as well as loads of chances given away in the same fashion. It’s not like these are quick breaks from us being in attack; it’s generally a long punt and if we don’t deal with the first one, we’re not switched on in midfield or set up across the back to deal with it.
Maybe it’s an easy fix, but I’m just some ārsehole on a message board who barely ever goes to games, so who knows.
Morecambes first - in my book - was an error on Mahers part. He got right underneath the ball and his header went backwards as opposed to forwards where it should have gone. If he'd have left it then Glennon is right behind it to deal with.
It’s clear Maher made an error. There’s no dispute about that. It shouldn’t have ended up in a goal being conceded though.
Maher made a mistake. These things happen.
What then happened was a repeat of so many goals we have conceded this season.
- Our CBs are too far apart - Our midfielders don’t track runners (Holohan - again!) - Our full-backs (in this case, Mullarkey) seem incapable of spotting danger and the massive hole in the middle of the defence. Just cover the middle of the pitch. Don’t just trot back in a straight line. It’s basic defending!
Defend the middle of the pitch and the goal. If the opposition score from a difficult angle, at least you have made them work for it.
I’ve never seen a Town team concede so many avoidable goals where the opposition are just allowed to run through gaping holes in our midfield / defence.
It’s got nothing to do with fitness, technical ability or confidence. It’s about being lazy, both mentally and physically.
As well as we played against Morecambe. As well as we attacked. There were several instances of the opposition just waltzing through our midfield, with players just dangling a half-hearted leg instead of actually trying to show some accountability and defend properly.
Pearson and Davies have done a lot of things right and deserve a great deal of credit. The defending from their players remains a shambles however.
People were moaning about being defensive, not looking to attack but defend. Now we've gone the other way as they were advocating they are moaning that we are conceding too many. What do you want, attacking football leaving gaps at the back, or defensive football, setting up to not concede but not score? Is attack the best way to defend?
What we want is an attack-minded team, that can defend. Grimsby Goals 23:28 GD -5, Stockport 37:18 GD+ 19. It's not rocket science, just difficult to achieve.
What we want is an attack-minded team, that can defend. Grimsby Goals 23:28 GD -5, Stockport 37:18 GD+ 19. It's not rocket science, just difficult to achieve.
Whilst I agree that’s what everyone wants, Stockport are very much the best team in the division and i’d go beyond that and say one of the best L2 teams i’ve seen over the years. They and Mansfield are very much an outlier in terms of the fact they score goals and are defensively very good. Most teams in the division have conceded above 20, Barrow are the only team below a 1 goal conceded per game but have only scored 20 goals in the league, which means every other team in the league concede at least 1 goal per game. We are defensively poor but it’s very much a league wide problem and I believe stems from our change of style, it’s all about finding that balance between defence and attack. Notts County are the perfect example, for them to play the way they do going forward means they have to play exceptionally high and that’s the way they see fit. Luke Williams wont go away from those principals because that’s how he wants his teams to play going forward but it also leaves them very susceptible at the back. We saw it with Ange recently, everyone called it bizarre when Tottenham were playing the exceptionally high line with 9 men against Chelsea.. it’s how he wants his teams to play and won’t move away from those values no matter who they’re playing or the circumstances.
In the last two matches we have, by general consent, defended appallingly.
Yet we've collected 3 precious league points and progressed to the next round of the FA Cup - by the cunning strategy of scoring more goals than the opposition. I think we may be onto something there .
Preferable to "one-up-front-at-home" - hoping for a clean sheet and maybe a goal from somewhere?
If we can win whilst defending poorly, the future looks good for us once we solidify at the back. Think we might need at least one acquisition in January though, so we'll need to be patient.
Well yeah obviously there’s an individual error in there, but I don’t understand how 2 midfielders are then allowed to stroll through so easily. The scorer starts 5 yards behind Holohan when Maher makes the header, by the time he scored he’s 10 yards ahead. It’s Andrews’ man who plays him through, also stood the wrong side of him.
Similar story where runners aren’t tracked against Tranmere, Barrow, Swindon, Crawley twice, what should’ve been a goal v Mansfield, as well as loads of chances given away in the same fashion. It’s not like these are quick breaks from us being in attack; it’s generally a long punt and if we don’t deal with the first one, we’re not switched on in midfield or set up across the back to deal with it.
Maybe it’s an easy fix, but I’m just some ārsehole on a message board who barely ever goes to games, so who knows.
I'd hazard a guess, and this is based on having played a bit too, that when the balls coming down and the midfielders are looking at the scenario, they see absolutely no reason why Maher doesn't get that right. I wouldn't be thinking of a need to drop or track a runner because I'm expecting that header to go forward, and I've got half my mind on where it's likely to drop in front of me and ready to react to the next ball. Their midfielder, facing the right way reacts quickest and puts himself at an advantage to win the ball.
Our defence then has to try and regroup from a stretched position which they can't do in time. You can fix it by saying track your runners etc and focus on the possibility of a mistake/error, but then we'd end up doing exactly what the majority of people here take offence to, and worry about the opposition. We could set up with attacking intent, but if the midfield drop deeper every time a ball goes up to plan for the possibility of a missed header, then there's no-one in a position to react to the knock down when it does go right.
Again, it's all balances. One seemingly tiny action affects the next action and so on and so forth. Some times it goes right, sometimes it doesn't. How you balance to mitigate one problem that is evident (currently our leaky defence) against another problem (our previous inability to score goals) hinges on marginal and subtle differences. As I said, it's not impossible but even with Notts County, they're fantastic going forward but are defensively worse than we are. Mansfield are defensively solid but have only scored 6 more than us and Sutton, who sit bottom of the table.
Whilst I agree that’s what everyone wants, Stockport are very much the best team in the division and i’d go beyond that and say one of the best L2 teams i’ve seen over the years. They and Mansfield are very much an outlier in terms of the fact they score goals and are defensively very good. Most teams in the division have conceded above 20, Barrow are the only team below a 1 goal conceded per game but have only scored 20 goals in the league, which means every other team in the league concede at least 1 goal per game. We are defensively poor but it’s very much a league wide problem and I believe stems from our change of style, it’s all about finding that balance between defence and attack. Notts County are the perfect example, for them to play the way they do going forward means they have to play exceptionally high and that’s the way they see fit. Luke Williams wont go away from those principals because that’s how he wants his teams to play going forward but it also leaves them very susceptible at the back. We saw it with Ange recently, everyone called it bizarre when Tottenham were playing the exceptionally high line with 9 men against Chelsea.. it’s how he wants his teams to play and won’t move away from those values no matter who they’re playing or the circumstances.
I good case to look at is the Championship with Leicester 29:10 and Ipswich 36:21 both on 39 pts taking 1st and 2nd place. Ipswich very attack minded but leaky at the back. There is no right or wrong, but a tongue in cheek, lets score more than we let in wouldn't go amiss at this moment in time. We are too near the drain to worry about what elegant style we should play, because, frankly, we just need points.
That goal was 99% Maher's fault. He misjudged an easy, unchallenged header and effectively flicked it straight to their striker. Our midfielders were expecting the ball to be heading back upfield so I don't blame them much. A gamble taken by their player to keep running forward and it paid dividends.
I'd hazard a guess, and this is based on having played a bit too, that when the balls coming down and the midfielders are looking at the scenario, they see absolutely no reason why Maher doesn't get that right. I wouldn't be thinking of a need to drop or track a runner because I'm expecting that header to go forward, and I've got half my mind on where it's likely to drop in front of me and ready to react to the next ball. Their midfielder, facing the right way reacts quickest and puts himself at an advantage to win the ball.
Our defence then has to try and regroup from a stretched position which they can't do in time. You can fix it by saying track your runners etc and focus on the possibility of a mistake/error, but then we'd end up doing exactly what the majority of people here take offence to, and worry about the opposition. We could set up with attacking intent, but if the midfield drop deeper every time a ball goes up to plan for the possibility of a missed header, then there's no-one in a position to react to the knock down when it does go right.
Again, it's all balances. One seemingly tiny action affects the next action and so on and so forth. Some times it goes right, sometimes it doesn't. How you balance to mitigate one problem that is evident (currently our leaky defence) against another problem (our previous inability to score goals) hinges on marginal and subtle differences. As I said, it's not impossible but even with Notts County, they're fantastic going forward but are defensively worse than we are. Mansfield are defensively solid but have only scored 6 more than us and Sutton, who sit bottom of the table.
Thats probably right but mostly immaterial if we are focusing on the first goal conceded to Morecambe. Our midfielders would be facing their own goal and the ball is behind them as Maher makes the header. Rodgers is facing away from his own goal and the ball was, or should have been in front of him. It’s mostly a matter of his awful positioning that the gap opens and their players race through it to score. If he’s well positioned it doesn’t happen. Watch the highlights again. It’s absolutely obvious where the key aspect of that goal conceded is.
1 other minor point - the increase in injury time means we are playing c 5% more time , so that should be factored in. I wonder if there has been an increase in goals scored in the last 10 mins/injury time, with more time being played and players getting more tired
Ironically, despite our obvious defensive frailties, we are by no means the worst in the division. Based on goals conceded per game, Notts County, Tranmere, Walsall, Crawley, Colchester, Swindon, Forest Green, Newport and Sutton are all worse than us.
Perhaps the timing of some of the goals, and how costly they have been, has made it seem worse?
defending is for negative nellies who can't score goals - give me this 'sod the scoreline as long as we score more goals than the opposition' attitude town now have any day over solid yet unspectacular 1-0 wins
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