England v Tunisia Match Thread

Quoted from Maringer

Henderson did OK on the night albeit against what looked a weak team, but he wouldn't get near a starting place with the better nations.

The best midfielders move the ball on much more quickly than the English midfielders - instant control and a first time pass. With our lot, it tends to be one touch to control it, another touch to control it properly, a delay to check options, then the pass. An extra second or two which makes a massive difference in a congested midfield.

In fact, our players seem slow in thought and deed across the pitch. Not quite sure why this should be the case as they often play well alongside foreign teammates. My view is there is a lack of footballing intelligence for one reason or another which our young players just can't seem to 'get'.

I think Tunisia need to be given some credit for denying us space to play the ball forward second half. If anything, we looked to keep possession too much and made it too comfortable playing in front of them. The last half an hour was crying out for us to cross the ball in from deeper, get them turned a bit and pick up the second balls in a more advanced position. It would have given them something different to think about. I think we fell into the trap of playing "too correctly", but at the death we got away with it. Up until the penalty, Mexico probably only matched us for level of performance in the first 30 minutes of a game. Another slight worry was that we seemed to run out of gas as much as we did ideas as the game went on..

A win's a win though.. I'll take that..

Didn't really listen to the commentary for any particular mention of it, but it looked pretty warm and we always seem to struggle in the heat.

Of course, could have been the fault of those pesky midges.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

The first 30 minutes was fine, Tunisia were still on the bus so there was acres of open grass to run into. Chances handed on a plate but where were the goals?  Once Tunisia equalised they dropped deep and cut it off. Instantly England had absolutely no idea what to do. The coach offered nothing different in the second half, even persisting with Ali when he couldn’t run. Nobody on the field had the brain to try and open the defence with a diagonal ball to the far post because it wasn’t on the crib sheet.

If ever there was a case for having the alternative on the bench of a Crouch or a Carroll this was it. Tunisia virtually invited England to win the game. They gave England the freedom of the touch line. Shimmying way down the sides and putting in cross after cross to nobody at the near post is not something to be praised as keeping to a game plan. If your second striker is useless then change the plan. If you don’t have a Carroll to change the angle for crosses,  bring on a Vardy to go for the near post. In the end it was an appalling bit of marking that gifted England the game.

Are we supposed to ignore these shortcomings and just say “Ah! bless ‘em, they’re only young” and “We woz robbed by VAR/the ref/FIFA”?

This is the Big Boys’ League, they don’t take excuses in there. Ask Low. Ask Titi. Ask Sampaoli. Big game on Sunday. More of the same tactics from Panama. Southgate needs to find a better answer than just a back and sideways midfield.

So you admit England started well but that was down to Tunisia "not getting off the bus"... is that even a valid excuse?

You accuse the England manager of offering nothing, when I think he got it pretty much spot on. This is tournament football, the heat was still 28C, there is no way you can expect a side to play at the pace England started with for the entire game. Yet, all you offer as an alternative tactic is we should have had "Peter Crouch" or "Andy Caroll". Well thank God Southgate is in charge and not you and the England team is at last looking to move on from "if we struggle just lump it to the big man".

Yes England scored because Kane was left free but IMO this was a direct result of England wearing the opposition down, making them chase England down for the second half. Mistakes happen, concentration is affected when teams get tired. Yes we were a little fortunate we got the goal so late but I felt that was just rewards for staying patient.

Your final point about not making excuses! Well that is exactly what we didn't do, we didn't need too because for once, despite these things going against us, we still won! Just like the "Big Boys" do.  We need exactly the same type of approach for Panama. Start fast, be patient if we need to be, don't start panicking and aimlessly lumping it forward... just take more chances this time!  

Quoted from MarinerMal

So you admit England started well but that was down to Tunisia "not getting off the bus"... is that even a valid excuse?

You accuse the England manager of offering nothing, when I think he got it pretty much spot on. This is tournament football, the heat was still 28C, there is no way you can expect a side to play at the pace England started with for the entire game. Yet, all you offer as an alternative tactic is we should have had "Peter Crouch" or "Andy Caroll". Well thank God Southgate is in charge and not you and the England team is at last looking to move on from "if we struggle just lump it to the big man".

Yes England scored because Kane was left free but IMO this was a direct result of England wearing the opposition down, making them chase England down for the second half. Mistakes happen, concentration is affected when teams get tired. Yes we were a little fortunate we got the goal so late but I felt that was just rewards for staying patient.

Your final point about not making excuses! Well that is exactly what we didn't do, we didn't need too because for once, despite these things going against us, we still won! Just like the "Big Boys" do.  We need exactly the same type of approach for Panama. Start fast, be patient if we need to be, don't start panicking and aimlessly lumping it forward... just take more chances this time!  

Why do you equate a big striker with a “lump it”? If you remember, Germany were not shy about using a giant up front were they? You are missing the point about that and about Southgate.  No variety, no surprise for the opposition. It is tournament football as you say but in tournament football you need to be able to adapt to circumstances and alter your tactics. Read what I said and find fault with that logic. We did not use any variety. It is OK to have your basic play mapped out but if the end result keeps being zilch, you need a plan B and a plan C. Not once did we try an early diagonal cross even after Rashford came on, the players just kept tip tapping about allowing defenders to dictate where they went. Not once did Sterling go near post yet he was on the pitch over an hour and then his replacement did just the same! In the end we won because they let us.

In a way it was as well we did not bury the chances first half because we did learn something after Tunisia equalised and shut us down. Panama will do the same but I expect we will manage to survive. Belgium will be different. They will counter at pace and down the flanks against a back 3. They will push our full backs into a back 5 and then what happens? That will be interesting won’t it? We won’t be able to waste possession like we did the other night and every time we get the ball in midfield there will be a decent player waiting to tackle and dispossess. So the patient game will have to be jettisoned especially if we go behind. Vardy will be on and we will be looking for the long ball over the top!

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

Why do you equate a big striker with a “lump it”? If you remember, Germany were not shy about using a giant up front were they? You are missing the point about that and about Southgate.  No variety, no surprise for the opposition. It is tournament football as you say but in tournament football you need to be able to adapt to circumstances and alter your tactics. Read what I said and find fault with that logic. We did not use any variety. It is OK to have your basic play mapped out but if the end result keeps being zilch, you need a plan B and a plan C. Not once did we try an early diagonal cross even after Rashford came on, the players just kept tip tapping about allowing defenders to dictate where they went. Not once did Sterling go near post yet he was on the pitch over an hour and then his replacement did just the same! In the end we won because they let us.

In a way it was as well we did not bury the chances first half because we did learn something after Tunisia equalised and shut us down. Panama will do the same but I expect we will manage to survive. Belgium will be different. They will counter at pace and down the flanks against a back 3. They will push our full backs into a back 5 and then what happens? That will be interesting won’t it? We won’t be able to waste possession like we did the other night and every time we get the ball in midfield there will be a decent player waiting to tackle and dispossess. So the patient game will have to be jettisoned especially if we go behind. Vardy will be on and we will be looking for the long ball over the top!

Because that is what England do every time they have a "big man" up front. They "lump it" up to him. So would you utilise Andy Carroll or Peter Crouch if you are not using them as a target man? The way we played the other night was far more intelligent and worked. No other plan was needed.You also need to view the game again if you think no diagonal passes were made, Henderson at least made a couple.

Yes, ofc Begium will be different and we will play a game with less possession and played more on the counter. I think it may suit us better.

Quoted from MarinerMal

Because that is what England do every time they have a "big man" up front. They "lump it" up to him. So would you utilise Andy Carroll or Peter Crouch if you are not using them as a target man? The way we played the other night was far more intelligent and worked. No other plan was needed.You also need to view the game again if you think no diagonal passes were made, Henderson at least made a couple.

Yes, ofc Begium will be different and we will play a game with less possession and played more on the counter. I think it may suit us better.

Your last sentence is very true. It will suit us better if we dare to play it properly and don’t spend half an hour fannying the ball around across the back while everyone gets marked and there’s no movement.

Whoopee Henderson made at least 2 diagonal passes.  . I bet he got his bum smacked for doing it too! Of course a target man generally means a long ball up there or a longer cross, that is the point, set a new problem for the opposition. I’ll even give you an example - Brazil v England in 1970, Astle was brought on after an hour and the Brazilian defence that had looked so comfortable in the heat with us passing the ball in front of them suddenly did not know whether to sh!!t, shave or shower as we turned them around and we should have comfortably won the game. Even Pele said that.

There is something of a love-in with Southgate at the moment because he is new, he is the same generation as most of the pundits, he isn’t Allardyce or Hodgson, he’s trying to make us more like Spain. Fair enough if it works, but being a manager is not about seeing the positives in your side, it’s about picking fault and changing things on the hoof, seeking that impossible perfection in a game. That we have yet to see,  I think you must agree.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

Why do you equate a big striker with a “lump it”? If you remember, Germany were not shy about using a giant up front were they? You are missing the point about that and about Southgate.  No variety, no surprise for the opposition. It is tournament football as you say but in tournament football you need to be able to adapt to circumstances and alter your tactics. Read what I said and find fault with that logic. We did not use any variety. It is OK to have your basic play mapped out but if the end result keeps being zilch, you need a plan B and a plan C. Not once did we try an early diagonal cross even after Rashford came on, the players just kept tip tapping about allowing defenders to dictate where they went. Not once did Sterling go near post yet he was on the pitch over an hour and then his replacement did just the same! In the end we won because they let us.

In a way it was as well we did not bury the chances first half because we did learn something after Tunisia equalised and shut us down. Panama will do the same but I expect we will manage to survive. Belgium will be different. They will counter at pace and down the flanks against a back 3. They will push our full backs into a back 5 and then what happens? That will be interesting won’t it? We won’t be able to waste possession like we did the other night and every time we get the ball in midfield there will be a decent player waiting to tackle and dispossess. So the patient game will have to be jettisoned especially if we go behind. Vardy will be on and we will be looking for the long ball over the top!

Did you stop watching the game with 5 minutes to go ?  Plan A worked -  has nobody told you we won !!!!!!!!!!  

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

Your last sentence is very true. It will suit us better if we dare to play it properly and don’t spend half an hour fannying the ball around across the back while everyone gets marked and there’s no movement.

Whoopee Henderson made at least 2 diagonal passes.  . I bet he got his bum smacked for doing it too! Of course a target man generally means a long ball up there or a longer cross, that is the point, set a new problem for the opposition. I’ll even give you an example - Brazil v England in 1970, Astle was brought on after an hour and the Brazilian defence that had looked so comfortable in the heat with us passing the ball in front of them suddenly did not know whether to sh!!t, shave or shower as we turned them around and we should have comfortably won the game. Even Pele said that.

There is something of a love-in with Southgate at the moment because he is new, he is the same generation as most of the pundits, he isn’t Allardyce or Hodgson, he’s trying to make us more like Spain. Fair enough if it works, but being a manager is not about seeing the positives in your side, it’s about picking fault and changing things on the hoof, seeking that impossible perfection in a game. That we have yet to see,  I think you must agree.

It's an interesting debate TRRFC. There's an element of needing to change things if it's not working or to combat the opposition. But in terms of the style of play and the England DNA, Southgate believes in it and clearly has enough belief and faith in it to not abandon it at the first sign of it possibly not working.

I get what you're saying completely, but I can also see it, and admire, Southgate's belief (similar to Guardiola's faith in his footballing beliefs) in his way of playing. His faith in it will transmit to the players, who otherwise might have been left thinking "we've worked on this system for months, it stopped working for 25 minutes and all of a sudden we've abandoned it to go a different way to our philosophy."

Ultimately, we won the game. So it worked. I don't get the "it was only a last minute goal that won it" arguments either - do goals in the last minutes not count? We know how long a football match is before it starts so it doesn't matter whether goals are scored in the 1st minute or in the 90th/injury time.

Yes there'll be tougher tests to come and better teams to play - they will pose us different problems but they'll also play into our hands a little more and give us more opportunities/space to exploit.

Far more positives than negatives for me from Monday night. We controlled the game, only allowed Tunisia one shot (their pen), had chances to have scored 4/5 and obviously won. Teams that do well in tournaments rarely start like a house on fire anyway (think past German teams grinding out the groups and coming strong in KO rounds) so performance was secondary to result for me.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

Your last sentence is very true. It will suit us better if we dare to play it properly and don’t spend half an hour fannying the ball around across the back while everyone gets marked and there’s no movement.

Whoopee Henderson made at least 2 diagonal passes.  . I bet he got his bum smacked for doing it too! Of course a target man generally means a long ball up there or a longer cross, that is the point, set a new problem for the opposition. I’ll even give you an example - Brazil v England in 1970, Astle was brought on after an hour and the Brazilian defence that had looked so comfortable in the heat with us passing the ball in front of them suddenly did not know whether to sh!!t, shave or shower as we turned them around and we should have comfortably won the game. Even Pele said that.

There is something of a love-in with Southgate at the moment because he is new, he is the same generation as most of the pundits, he isn’t Allardyce or Hodgson, he’s trying to make us more like Spain. Fair enough if it works, but being a manager is not about seeing the positives in your side, it’s about picking fault and changing things on the hoof, seeking that impossible perfection in a game. That we have yet to see,  I think you must agree.

Football has moved on since 1970's! Just about every team at this world cup would be able to easily negate a Target man. Long Ball + Long Cross = "lumping it" to me.
So we lump it, sometimes win the subsuequent header sometimes not, we are still gifting the ball back to the opposition more. Meaning as they keep the ball more we have to work harder to get it back. We get more tired and therefore less likely to steal the winner late on. Your target man tactic might work to some degree in the winter months in England. It would be difficult to maintain in a summer tournament where you are expected to play so many games in such a short period of time.

I wasn't sure about Southgate when he was appointed but I don't just love how he is trying to get England to play. I like the way comes across. He doesn't get to excited after a victory and doesn't get too down after a defeat. Tries to take the pressure of his players so they are free to play without the fear we have seen from so many past England sides.

Yes, I agree we have yet to see that perfection in a game... from anyone!

Southgate isn’t a brilliant manager but he doesn’t have to be. He’s at the top of the coaching set up in the English FA, which have spent the last few years setting up a system and actually trying to develop the younger players. Hence why our younger players did so well last summer. It’s what the Germans started doing after their bad period (losing 5-1 to us) and what Spain have been doing for years.

It’s trying to establish something that isn’t just 4-4-2, punt it long to the big men and steamroll the opposition. That doesn’t work anymore.