Hillsborough

Charges against 6, Duckenfield being one according to reports.
Why so bloody long?

What's even worse is that virtually nothing will happen to them.
Not that it would happen, but any of them that stayed in employment after Hillsborough should give all pensions earned in that time to the families of the victims. After all, the least that would have happened to them would be to lose their job.  I guess the only (unfortunate) upside of Grenfell is that people and politicians will have an eye on what the punishment is.  

Quoted from MarinersOnTheUp

Glad people are being charged but to be honest Liverpool fans weren't totally innocent. A mixture of their behaviour, police incompetence and an unsafe stadium caused this.

Obviously can't say that though can I?

Here we go....

It wasn't the Liverpool's fans fault though. That was a myth perpetrated by the Sun and South Yorkshire Police. The Taylor Report got to the bottom of it 27 years ago. The causes were a mixture of a failed and outdated policing event plan, Poor stadium design and signage. An overestimation of how many people could fit into the Leppings Lane end of the ground and finally and critically the central tunnel wasn't blocked off as was standard practice.

When the Liverpool fans arrived for a 3pm kick off there should have been a PC monitoring flow through the tunnels that led into the Leppings end. At about 2:45 the central entrance should have been blocked off and fans directed to the side tunnels. None of that happened. So when Duckenfield ordered the exterior gates to be opened the Liverpool fans took the simplest route into the Leppings Lane end which caused the fatal crush.

The same thing happened in the 1981 cup semi final the only difference been that pens hadn't been erected so fortunately people were able to move along the length of stand lessening the crush that injured 38 people.

There were other factors that exacerbated the scale of the catastrophe but it fundamentally it was a failure of crowd management that caused the disaster.

Blaming Liverpool fans is like blaming Grenfall Tower residents.

Hillsborough match commander David Duckenfield, former chief constable Sir Norman Bettison and four other people are to be prosecuted over offences relating to the Hillsborough disaster.

The Crown Prosecution Service announced that Duckenfield is to be charged with the manslaughter by gross negligence of 95 of the 96 Liverpool FC fans who died at the FA Cup semi-final in 1989 and Bettison has been charged with four counts of misconduct in public office.

Sue Hemming, head of the CPS's special crime division, said former South Yorkshire Police officers Donald Denton and Alan Foster, as well as force solicitor Peter Metcalf, are charged with doing acts with intent to pervert the course of justice. Former Sheffield Wednesday secretary Graham Mackrell is also charged with three offences relating to health and safety at sports grounds.
Sir Norman Bettison, left, and David Duckenfield
Sir Norman Bettison, left, and David Duckenfield  Credit: Peter Byrne/PA/Dave Thompson/Getty

Families of the victims gathered in Warrington on Wednesday morning to hear the announcement, which was released to the public in a 3,780-word statement around 20 minutes later.

In the House of Commons, Prime Minister Theresa May welcomed the decision by the CPS and praised the "absolutely exemplary" campaign by the Hillsborough families and others.

Mrs May said: "I know from working closely with the families when I was Home Secretary that this will be a day of mixed emotions for them.

"I welcome the fact that charging decisions have been taken. I think that is an important step forward. But the House will understand that I cannot say anything further on matters that are now subject to a criminal prosecution."
A tearful family member leaves a briefing from the CPS in Warrington on Wednesday afternoon
A tearful family member leaves a briefing from the CPS in Warrington on Wednesday Credit: Peter Byrne/PA

Barry Devonside, whose 18-year-old son Christopher was killed in the disaster, pumped his fist as he emerged from the meeting with the lawyers and other relatives of the 96.

He said: "Everybody applauded when it was announced that the most senior police officer on that particular day will have charges presented to him."
Barry Devonside punches the air after learning of the decision
Barry Devonside punches the air after learning of the decision Credit: Peter Byrne/PA

Speaking on behalf of some of the families, lawyer Marcia Willis-Stewart said: "The Hillsborough families have waited 28 years for justice.

"Some of the truth was exposed by the independent panel and some by the inquest jury on April 26 2016. Now we await the results from the long overdue process of accountability - accountability being key and at the heart.

"The families are sensitive to the issues of fairness and due process and no-one wishes to prejudice or to jeopardise it.

"There are of course various legal options open to the families where decisions have been made not to prosecute, in the form of the victim and judicial review process. As I said, 28 years for justice, now is the time for accountability."
Family members of the 96 Hillsborough victims show their feeling after a meeting with Sue Hemming, Head of the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) Special Crime and Counter Terrorism Division, in Warrington
Family members of the 96 Hillsborough victims outside the Crown Prosecution Service headquarters in Warrington Credit: NIGEL RODDIS/EPA

Hillsborough Family Support Group chairwoman Margaret Aspinall has said it is the "beginning of the end". She said: "Every time we have been knocked down we have been determined to come back stronger."

Trevor Hicks, whose daughters Sarah and Vicki died in the disaster at the 1989 FA Cup semi-final, said: "This is a success for society at large, not just for us."

Mrs Aspinall, whose 18-year-old son, James, died in the tragedy, said: "No one should have to go through what the families have gone through for 28 years to try and get to the truth and to get accountability.

"I think now what has been achieved today will change things for the good of this nation and I think that's the legacy of our 96, that they will have left behind."
Hillsborough
Ninety-six men, women and children were killed in the disaster at the 1989 FA Cup semi-final Credit: Richard Sellers/Sportsphoto

Prosecutor Ms Hemming said a further file from the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) on the conduct of West Midlands Police still needs "additional investigative work".

She added: "Additionally, just this week, the IPCC has referred two further suspects which are unconnected to the matters sent to us in January; these subjects are subject to ongoing consideration by the CPS. We will announce our decisions in due course.

"The suspects referred to the CPS included individuals and organisations. Following these thorough investigations and our careful review of the evidence in accordance with the Code for Crown Prosecutors, I have decided there is sufficient evidence to charge six individuals with criminal offences."

All the defendants, except Duckenfield who has not yet been formally charged, will appear at Warrington Magistrates' Court on August 8.

Stephen Watson, the current South Yorkshire Police Chief Constable, said: "Given that criminal proceedings are now active, it would be inappropriate for me to comment further for fear of jeopardising this important process in any way.

"In all of this however, our thoughts are with the Hillsborough families as we reflect on the appalling tragedy that is Hillsborough with the loss of so many innocent lives."
leaving Parr Hall, Warrington, where the Crown Prosecution Service
Families of Hillsborough victims leaving Parr Hall, Warrington, where the Crown Prosecution Service announced that charges will be brought Credit: Peter Byrne/PA

Evelyn McDonnell Mills, whose brother Peter McDonnell, 21, died in the disaster, said: "I'm really happy that we've finally got some charges after 28 years.

"I'm just sad that my brother Gerard, who campaigned for years, died in the first year of the new inquests and never got to see justice."
Father of Hillsborough victim: We couldn't have asked for more

Duckenfield was not at home at his bungalow in Ferndown, Dorset, when the charges were announced.

But Ian Lewis, the partner at JMW Solicitors who is representing Duckenfield and Denton, said: "In light of the decision by the Crown Prosecution Service to commence criminal proceedings against David Duckenfield and Donald Denton, it would be inappropriate for me as their solicitor or for my clients themselves to make any comment."

Operation Resolve, which investigated the causes of the disaster, and the (IPCC) had passed files of evidence relating to 23 suspects, including individuals and organisations, to the CPS earlier this year.

Last year, new inquests found the 96 were unlawfully killed in the disaster, which happened at the match between Liverpool FC and Nottingham Forest.
May pays tribute to Hillsborough campaign

The jury also identified errors in the police planning and response, the actions of commanding officers, the safety certification of the ground, the management of the stadium by Sheffield Wednesday FC and the response by the ambulance service. It also found there were dangerous features in the stadium design.

The original inquest in 1991 ruled that the deaths were accidental, but those verdicts were quashed following an independent report that concluded a major cover-up had taken place to shift the blame for the disaster onto the victims.
Archive: how the Hillsborough disaster unfolded

Following the disaster on April 15 1989, it is alleged that officers from South Yorkshire Police conspired to blame the fans for the tragedy with statements being changed and evidence hidden.

Police at the time briefed the media that the crush in the Leppings Lane end had been caused by drunken, ticketless fans forcing the gates open in order to gain access to the ground.
St George's Hall in Liverpool illuminated following a special commemorative service to mark the outcome of the Hillsborough inquest,
St George's Hall in Liverpool illuminated following a commemorative service to mark the outcome of the Hillsborough inquests Credit: Peter Byrne/PA

The IPCC, which has been investigation the alleged conspiracy, said it had identified 289 police accounts that had been amended.

Last year, a jury concluded after fresh inquests that those who died had been unlawfully killed in a tragedy caused by a series of blunders.
What happened at the 2016 inquest?

In April last year, an inquest jury ruled the victims had been unlawfully killed in the tragedy. The deaths were ruled accidental at the end of the original 1991 inquest.

But those verdicts were quashed following the 2012 Hillsborough Independent Panel report, which concluded that a major cover-up had taken place in an effort by police and others to avoid the blame for what happened.
The Leppings Lane terrace at the Hillsborough Stadium
The Leppings Lane terrace at the Hillsborough Stadium Credit: EPA/HILLSBOROUGH INQUEST

The new jury concluded that blunders by the police and ambulance service on the day had "caused or contributed" to the disaster and that the victims had been unlawfully killed.

After the verdict, South Yorkshire Police Chief Constable David Crompton said his force "unequivocally" accepted the verdict of unlawful killing and the wider findings reached by the jury.
Hillsborough families' 27-year quest for justice

What did the jury find?

The jurors were told they could only reach the unlawful killing determination if they were sure of four "essential" matters concerning the deaths at the 1989 FA Cup semi-final.

They concluded it was unlawful killing by a 7-2 majority. The jury also ruled that fan behaviour did not cause or contribute to the tragedy.
Thousands chant "justice for the 96" at Hillsborough commemorative service in Liverpool

The jury found that:

    Both the police and the ambulance service caused or contributed to the loss of lives in the disaster by an error or omission after the terrace crush had begun to develop;
    Policing of the match caused or contributed to a dangerous situation developing at the Leppings Lane turnstiles;
    Commanding officers caused or contributed to the crush on the terrace, as did those senior officers in the police control box when the order was given to open the exit gates at Leppings Lane;
    Features of the design, construction and layout of the stadium considered to be dangerous or defective caused or contributed to the disaster

On the question of the role of South Yorkshire Police in the emergency response, the jury said: "The police delayed calling a major incident so the appropriate emergency response was delayed.

"There was a lack of co-ordination, command and control which delayed or prevented appropriate responses."

[/b]Lets hope now justice is swift, but like someone said Duckenfield and the 5 others have had the last 28 years living out their lives, while the families of the 96 have had to fight every second of the last 28 years.

The older ones on this website know, it could easily had happened to any fan following their football team back in the eighties.

I have the upmost respect for the way the families of 96 have conducted themselves during the last 28 years[b]

RIP

Jon-Paul Gilhooley      10      M
Philip Hammond      14      M
Thomas Anthony Howard      14      M
Paul Brian Murray      14      M
Lee Nicol      14      M
Adam Edward Spearritt      14      M
Peter Andrew Harrison      15      M
Victoria Jane Hicks      15      F
Philip John Steele      15      M
Kevin Tyrrell      15      M
Kevin Daniel Williams      15      M
Kester Roger Marcus Ball      16      M
Nicholas Michael Hewitt      16      M
Martin Kevin Traynor      16      M
Simon Bell      17      M
Carl Darren Hewitt      17      M
Keith McGrath      17      M
Stephen Francis O'Neill      17      M
Steven Joseph Robinson      17      M
Henry Charles Rogers      17      M
Stuart Paul William Thompson      17      M
Graham John Wright      17      M
James Gary Aspinall      18      M
Carl Brown      18      M
Paul Clark      18      M
Christopher Barry Devonside      18      M
Gary Philip Jones      18      M
Carl David Lewis      18      M
John McBrien      18      M
Jonathon Owens      18      M
Colin Mark Ashcroft      19      M
Paul William Carlile      19      M
Gary Christopher Church      19      M
James Philip Delaney      19      M
Sarah Louise Hicks      19      F
David William Mather      19      M
Colin Wafer      19      M
Ian David Whelan      19      M
Stephen Paul Copoc      20      M
Ian Thomas Glover      20      M
Gordon Rodney Horn      20      M
Paul David Brady      21      M
Thomas Steven Fox      21      M
Marian Hazel McCabe      21      F
Joseph Daniel McCarthy      21      M
Peter McDonnell      21      M
Carl William Rimmer      21      M
Peter Francis Tootle      21      M
David John Benson      22      M
David William Birtle      22      M
Tony Bland      22      M
Gary Collins      22      M
Tracey Elizabeth Cox      23      F
William Roy Pemberton      23      M
Colin Andrew Hugh William Sefton      23      M
David Leonard Thomas      23      M
Peter Andrew Burkett      24      M
Derrick George Godwin      24      M
Graham John Roberts      24      M
David Steven Brown      25      M
Richard Jones      25      M
Barry Sidney Bennett      26      M
Andrew Mark Brookes      26      M
Paul Anthony Hewitson      26      M
Paula Ann Smith      26      F
Christopher James Traynor      26      M
Barry Glover      27      M
Gary Harrison      27      M
Christine Anne Jones      27      F
Nicholas Peter Joynes      27      M
Francis Joseph McAllister      27      M
Alan McGlone      28      M
Joseph Clark      29      M
Christopher Edwards      29      M
James Robert Hennessy      29      M
Alan Johnston      29      M
Anthony Peter Kelly      29      M
Martin Kenneth Wild      29      M
Peter Reuben Thompson      30      M
Stephen Francis Harrison      31      M
Eric Hankin      33      M
Vincent Michael Fitzsimmons      34      M
Roy Harry Hamilton      34      M
Patrick John Thompson      35      M
Michael David Kelly      38      M
Brian Christopher Mathews      38      M
David George Rimmer      38      M
Inger Shah      38      F
David Hawley      39      M
Thomas Howard      39      M
Arthur Horrocks      41      M
Eric George Hughes      42      M
Henry Thomas Burke      47      M
Raymond Thomas Chapman      50      M
John Alfred Anderson      62      M
Gerard Bernard Patrick Baron      67      M

Quoted from MarinersOnTheUp

Glad people are being charged but to be honest Liverpool fans weren't totally innocent. A mixture of their behaviour, police incompetence and an unsafe stadium caused this.

Obviously can't say that though can I?

No You can't, you are a disgrace to supporters. I am not a scouse fan but they were proven to be innocent. The only people to blame - the police especially  Duckenfield.
It was NOT the fans do you get it, NOT the fans.
NOT the fans, none of which are being charged. You are a complete and utter idiot, you should be reported for this.
NOT THE FANS IDIOT

Anybody that had visited that ground and I have a few times before the tragedy would know it was a disaster waiting to happen,

I refused to go down the tunnel a few years before when the  corner stand was empty,

The police said we are not opening that corner until this stand is full,

I replied that you will open it in a minute because this stand is full and there are still 5,000 outside,

5 minutes later the corner was open and we went into that,

We could have been crushed that day because the police wanted us to go down to the front when the stand was full.

People seem to ignore that there were 2000 extra idiotic Liverpool fans who ran into the ground after the equally inept police opened that gate. Plus at the time, it was only 5 years after the Heysel disaster, which was entirely the fault of Liverpool fans, this meant it was easier for the police to cover up because they had previous, likewise the general public belived Liverpool were a bunch of drunk up looneys. It wasn't as clear cut as either side tell us.

Don't tell me to get a grip, you've made me so angry. What don't you get idiot. NO CHARGES AGAINST LIVERPOOL SUPPORTERS !!!!!
YOU ARE A DISGRACE. ONLY IDIOTS BLAMED THE SUPPORTERS.
REPORT YOU FOR DENYING THE TRUTH.
WHAT NEXT THE JEWS WEREN'T INNOCENT ENTIRELY.
NO LIVERPOOL SUPPORTERS CHARGED.
I'll pass your comments on see if I'm the only one to think this,

I don't claim to be an expert on this disaster but believe the real villains were the people responsible for the cover up and changing police/witness statements. Anyone under pressure can make a wrong judgement call, I can accept decisions in the heat of the moment BUT can never ever accept those who lied after the event to protect themselves rather than admitting errors

Quoted from Mariner_09

People seem to ignore that there were 2000 extra idiotic Liverpool fans who ran into the ground after the equally inept police opened that gate. Plus at the time, it was only 5 years after the Heysel disaster, which was entirely the fault of Liverpool fans, this meant it was easier for the police to cover up because they had previous, likewise the general public belived Liverpool were a bunch of drunk up looneys. It wasn't as clear cut as either side tell us.

Your "2000 extra idiotic fans who ran into ground"  DID NOT OPEN THE GATE FACT, get your facts right.
Were you there!

I guess his argument will be that had he not opened the gates then there would have been fatalities outside the ground , getting angry on here with each other will not prove anything . Everyone will get their day in court now , albeit very late after the event.

Quoted from Mariner_09

People seem to ignore that there were 2000 extra idiotic Liverpool fans who ran into the ground after the equally inept police opened that gate. Plus at the time, it was only 5 years after the Heysel disaster, which was entirely the fault of Liverpool fans, this meant it was easier for the police to cover up because they had previous, likewise the general public believed Liverpool were a bunch of drunk up looneys. It wasn't as clear cut as either side tell us.

You mean the 2000 fans who had purchased tickets and walked to the ground and expected to be let in for 3pm as we've all done countless times - not sure whats idiotic about that.

It's amazing given the coverage the second inquest result got that there are still morons out there who believe the Sun's version of events rather than that of a public inquiry that took two years to be heard.

Quoted from Mariner_09

People seem to ignore that there were 2000 extra idiotic Liverpool fans who ran into the ground after the equally inept police opened that gate. Plus at the time, it was only 5 years after the Heysel disaster, which was entirely the fault of Liverpool fans, this meant it was easier for the police to cover up because they had previous, likewise the general public belived Liverpool were a bunch of drunk up looneys. It wasn't as clear cut as either side tell us.

Heysel was in 1985 4 years before Hillsborough, you need to read back what you write sometimes as people may take offence.

Quoted from Mariner_09

People seem to ignore that there were 2000 extra idiotic Liverpool fans who ran into the ground after the equally inept police opened that gate. Plus at the time, it was only 5 years after the Heysel disaster, which was entirely the fault of Liverpool fans, this meant it was easier for the police to cover up because they had previous, likewise the general public belived Liverpool were a bunch of drunk up looneys. It wasn't as clear cut as either side tell us.

The absolute flipping state of this.

Quoted from Mariner_09

People seem to ignore that there were 2000 extra idiotic Liverpool fans who ran into the ground after the equally inept police opened that gate. Plus at the time, it was only 5 years after the Heysel disaster, which was entirely the fault of Liverpool fans, this meant it was easier for the police to cover up because they had previous, likewise the general public belived Liverpool were a bunch of drunk up looneys. It wasn't as clear cut as either side tell us.

Get in the flipping sea.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732

Quoted from LH

It's amazing given the coverage the second inquest result got that there are still morons out there who believe the Sun's version of events rather than that of a public inquiry that took two years to be heard.

It's astonishing. The fans have been proven to be totally blameless. It's such a shame that people still want to make excuses for a wholly avoidable disaster and blame victims.

That victim blaming continues to this day with the Mail printing pictures last week of the Grenfell resident who's fridge set alight. I bet there are some people with connections to that incident having trouble nodding off tonight after this decision.

I've been in numerous situations, even in the Pontoon when it used to hold many thousands more than it does now and the fans swayed all over the place, when I've literally had my breath taken away from by crushing. That's one step away from asphyxiation which is what happened to those who perished at Hillsborough.

I've also been swept off my feet and carried along in a huge mob of Town fans at a couple of games. Even though I'm nearly 6'3" and was fairly well built there was little I could do to even try and stop it. That's what also happened at Hillsborough. Combine the two elements and you have the perfect storm for a disaster if there is nowhere to go. There but for the grace of god.....

Couple that with police incompetence, lying, collusion over statements, perverting the course of justice, and support from the very top of the then government and it's hardly surprising it's taken do long to get to this point. The 96 haven't got justice yet though, and I feel the establishment will do all that it possibly can to maintain the status quo - what's the odds that the trials may collapse because everyone now has an opinion on he matter and it might be dificult to find a jury who could be totally impartial?

Justice for The 96. YNWA.

Quoted from Mariner_09

People seem to ignore that there were 2000 extra idiotic Liverpool fans who ran into the ground after the equally inept police opened that gate. Plus at the time, it was only 5 years after the Heysel disaster, which was entirely the fault of Liverpool fans, this meant it was easier for the police to cover up because they had previous, likewise the general public belived Liverpool were a bunch of drunk up looneys. It wasn't as clear cut as either side tell us.

Dear oh dear. Who's been filling you full of this nonsense? I bet you weren't born until years after this. Probably never set foot in a ground where the crush was so bad.

Next you'll be saying the Nazis were misunderstood and were just a little bit robust.

The greatest shame is the amount of time it as taken to get to the truth those in authority clearly got together, closed ranks and distorted the evidence.

On the back of yesterdays news Its the changing of statements and perverting the course of justice bit that makes me feel sick inside. These people where invested with the responsibility of protecting the people they served (the public) and delivering justice for societies victims. If proven guilty their betrayal of the poor souls who perished that day and their loved ones deserves no mercy.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

On the back of yesterdays news Its the changing of statements and perverting the course of justice bit that makes me feel sick inside. These people where invested with the responsibility of protecting the people they served (the public) and delivering justice for societies victims. If proven guilty their betrayal of the poor souls who perished that day and their loved ones deserves no mercy.

I think this is the main issue - the cover up is indefensible. It is possible to excuse mistakes on the day as being the result of inexperience, poor planning, technical failures and other matters beyond the control of the police or the club. Personally I think some of the manslaughter charges are harsh, given the circumstances. Police officers, individually and collectively may have been inept or stupid but even their harshest critics cannot believe they set out that day to let people die on a football pitch.

However,  it is impossible to excuse the subsequent deliberate lies and deceptions. To my mind that is where the true criminality lies, in perverting the course of justice.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

I think this is the main issue - the cover up is indefensible. It is possible to excuse mistakes on the day as being the result of inexperience, poor planning, technical failures and other matters beyond the control of the police or the club. Personally I think some of the manslaughter charges are harsh, given the circumstances. Police officers, individually and collectively may have been inept or stupid but even their harshest critics cannot believe they set out that day to let people die on a football pitch.

However,  it is impossible to excuse the subsequent deliberate lies and deceptions. To my mind that is where the true criminality lies, in perverting the course of justice.

That's why Duckinfeld is facing manslaughter charges and not murder charges. Nobody is suggesting he, or anybody else, acted with the intent of people losing their lives. However his actions ultimately led to the death of 96 people, and I believe he is desveredly facing the consequences of his actions.

Nobody who followed football in the 80s and travelled could fail to understand just how easily that disaster or the Bradford Fire could have unfolded at ANY big game in seriously outdated stadia.The ONLY mitigation for officers in/at the ground is when the initial fans started coming onto the pitch they would have suspected it was due to crowd trouble initially.Following on from that it was a catalogue of errors and it`s a miracle many more never died.The fans were innocent alright there were more than enough Police around but sadly they were ill trained and  badly led.Any officer who changed his statement should be prosecuted.

Quoted from 1mickylyons

Nobody who followed football in the 80s and travelled could fail to understand just how easily that disaster or the Bradford Fire could have unfolded at ANY big game in seriously outdated stadia.The ONLY mitigation for officers in/at the ground is when the initial fans started coming onto the pitch they would have suspected it was due to crowd trouble initially.Following on from that it was a catalogue of errors and it`s a miracle many more never died.The fans were innocent alright there were more than enough Police around but sadly they were ill trained and  badly led.Any officer who changed his statement should be prosecuted.

Very true. I can remember being in fear of my life in the Trent End at Forest and on the one and only time I went on the Kop at Anfield. In the mid-60s when MOTD was still in its infancy, they made great play of the spectators at various clubs for their singing and chanting and jumping around on the terraces. People today cannot comprehend that all this was new to most football fans. Rhythmic chanting was virtually unknown until the early 60s, singing was virtually unknown until the mid-60s and both spread because of TV exposure.

One thing you learned not to do if you could help it was arrive early for a game. Daft though it seems, this was true. Almost every 'kop' filled up at the last minute and for away fans in particular it was a badge of honour to have rushed the turnstile and the gate, got in for free and be in the stand before anyone could stop you. There was always an almighty surge as the yobs came in from the back and shoved everyone down. If you were unlucky enough to fall over you would be trampled and many people were, though it was rarely on the news, just a fact of football life.

The surge was another thing they learnt from the telly. At Anfield it was the 70s equivalent of the Mexican Wave, almost a trade mark. That was in the days before fences and barriers. If they decided to invade the pitch they would just climb over the people at the front to do it. There were more injuries from that than ever there were from fighting. Then some idiot at Chelsea invented the cage fence which made the situation many times more deadly and you can draw a line between that and Hillsborough.

I still don't think people realise what animals there were at games in those days and how they really didn't care who got hurt. You have to put events in the context of what people thought and expected at the time. It doesn't always make them right but I've never been in favour of imposing today's morals on yesterday's auto-reflex simply to get yourself a pound of flesh from somewhere.

As I said there is fault on both sides, but mainly the police's. Those who authorised and insisted on the changing of statements are the real criminals. You get idiotic football fans and you get police officers who make mistakes when under pressure but actively making a conscious decision to hide the truth about the disaster is criminal.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

Very true. I can remember being in fear of my life in the Trent End at Forest and on the one and only time I went on the Kop at Anfield. In the mid-60s when MOTD was still in its infancy, they made great play of the spectators at various clubs for their singing and chanting and jumping around on the terraces. People today cannot comprehend that all this was new to most football fans. Rhythmic chanting was virtually unknown until the early 60s, singing was virtually unknown until the mid-60s and both spread because of TV exposure.

One thing you learned not to do if you could help it was arrive early for a game. Daft though it seems, this was true. Almost every 'kop' filled up at the last minute and for away fans in particular it was a badge of honour to have rushed the turnstile and the gate, got in for free and be in the stand before anyone could stop you. There was always an almighty surge as the yobs came in from the back and shoved everyone down. If you were unlucky enough to fall over you would be trampled and many people were, though it was rarely on the news, just a fact of football life.

The surge was another thing they learnt from the telly. At Anfield it was the 70s equivalent of the Mexican Wave, almost a trade mark. That was in the days before fences and barriers. If they decided to invade the pitch they would just climb over the people at the front to do it. There were more injuries from that than ever there were from fighting. Then some idiot at Chelsea invented the cage fence which made the situation many times more deadly and you can draw a line between that and Hillsborough.

I still don't think people realise what animals there were at games in those days and how they really didn't care who got hurt. You have to put events in the context of what people thought and expected at the time. It doesn't always make them right but I've never been in favour of imposing today's morals on yesterday's auto-reflex simply to get yourself a pound of flesh from somewhere.

Not quite Ron, but almost. I remember my dad and I going to Anfield in the late 1960s to watch Liverpool vs Spurs. We got in fairly early and positioned ourselves behind one of the lean on crash barriers and thought "this is good2 Shortly after the match started it started, the crowd swayed and went all over the Kop as was the fashion. Dad and I got squashed very painfully behind the crash barrier. Once this finished we quickly went underneath and stood with our backs to it, a much better option.

Quoted from jock dock tower

Not quite Ron, but almost. I remember my dad and I going to Anfield in the late 1960s to watch Liverpool vs Spurs. We got in fairly early and positioned ourselves behind one of the lean on crash barriers and thought "this is good2 Shortly after the match started it started, the crowd swayed and went all over the Kop as was the fashion. Dad and I got squashed very painfully behind the crash barrier. Once this finished we quickly went underneath and stood with our backs to it, a much better option.

Re the surging of the crowd and crush, plus your earlier post re the Pontoon, sure I can recall a wooden barrier collapsing at a Grimsby v Scunthorpe game. Think it was Good Friday in 1971 ish and resulted in many bodies being piled up on the floor but fortunately no serious injuries.

Or did I just dream that happened?

Quoted from Lincoln Mariner 56

Re the surging of the crowd and crush, plus your earlier post re the Pontoon, sure I can recall a wooden barrier collapsing at a Grimsby v Scunthorpe game. Think it was Good Friday in 1971 ish and resulted in many bodies being piled up on the floor but fortunately no serious injuries.

Or did I just dream that happened?

No. It definitely happened.

Quoted from Mariner_09

As I said there is fault on both sides, but mainly the police's. Those who authorised and insisted on the changing of statements are the real criminals. You get idiotic football fans and you get police officers who make mistakes when under pressure but actively making a conscious decision to hide the truth about the disaster is criminal.

In reality there is not two sides to this, in my mind on the day the authorities had a duty of care to the fans attending the game and the general public they did not exercise that and subsequently tried to cover their ineptitude up.

The interesting thing now the charges are there is will the 2 top cops suddenly become ill and not fit for trial (the usual get out for these types of people (See Guinness non trial as the best example). Only the minnions will get done in the end.

Duckenfield will pay, he was clueless and out of his depth on the day and remains so today.
Bettison is the big one, nasty bit of work and already up to his neck with his interference in the Steven Lawrence case but he's high up the hierarchy, with some very influential friends.

Fortunately for the families of the 96 (and the UK in general), the public are not putting up with the
ducking and diving by those in charge of such matters any more. Both parties realise that in the next election every vote will count. So they can not be seen to be shirking or looking after their own.
Those charged will never ever get what they deserve, but I do believe that life will be a lot tougher than it would have been where it not for Grenfell. No doubt there will be still be massive amounts of wriggling, but allies will be a lot harder to come by than they would have been.  As others have said, making a very poor decision on the ground is bad enough.  
But those that engaged in the subsequent cover up should surely be charged (at the very least) with perverting the cause of justice.  All should by rights receive Jail sentences, but I won't hold my breath on that one.  

I have said before that the stand was a disaster waiting to happen,

You go down a longish tunnel to get into the stand,

Even when you are nearly through  you could not see most of what was in front of you,

So the vast majority would just keep on pushing trying to get to see the game that had already kicked off,

They would have had no idea what was happing further down the line.

Thank god it's all changed now.

Quoted from Lincoln Mariner 56

Re the surging of the crowd and crush, plus your earlier post re the Pontoon, sure I can recall a wooden barrier collapsing at a Grimsby v Scunthorpe game. Think it was Good Friday in 1971 ish and resulted in many bodies being piled up on the floor but fortunately no serious injuries.

Or did I just dream that happened?

I don't remember bodies being piled up as I was stood with my back to that barrier when it happened as that was our usual spot.

It was a bit of a crush though, although with me being at the back I would have ended up on top of those in front of me.

Must admit when I went in the Pontoon in the late seventies early eighties, in certain games you could lift your feet of the ground and still be carried out after the final whistle.
It's the way it was then, scary when you think about it now.