Hillsborough

Quoted from Mariner_09

People seem to ignore that there were 2000 extra idiotic Liverpool fans who ran into the ground after the equally inept police opened that gate. Plus at the time, it was only 5 years after the Heysel disaster, which was entirely the fault of Liverpool fans, this meant it was easier for the police to cover up because they had previous, likewise the general public belived Liverpool were a bunch of drunk up looneys. It wasn't as clear cut as either side tell us.

Dear oh dear. Who's been filling you full of this nonsense? I bet you weren't born until years after this. Probably never set foot in a ground where the crush was so bad.

Next you'll be saying the Nazis were misunderstood and were just a little bit robust.

The greatest shame is the amount of time it as taken to get to the truth those in authority clearly got together, closed ranks and distorted the evidence.

On the back of yesterdays news Its the changing of statements and perverting the course of justice bit that makes me feel sick inside. These people where invested with the responsibility of protecting the people they served (the public) and delivering justice for societies victims. If proven guilty their betrayal of the poor souls who perished that day and their loved ones deserves no mercy.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

On the back of yesterdays news Its the changing of statements and perverting the course of justice bit that makes me feel sick inside. These people where invested with the responsibility of protecting the people they served (the public) and delivering justice for societies victims. If proven guilty their betrayal of the poor souls who perished that day and their loved ones deserves no mercy.

I think this is the main issue - the cover up is indefensible. It is possible to excuse mistakes on the day as being the result of inexperience, poor planning, technical failures and other matters beyond the control of the police or the club. Personally I think some of the manslaughter charges are harsh, given the circumstances. Police officers, individually and collectively may have been inept or stupid but even their harshest critics cannot believe they set out that day to let people die on a football pitch.

However,  it is impossible to excuse the subsequent deliberate lies and deceptions. To my mind that is where the true criminality lies, in perverting the course of justice.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

I think this is the main issue - the cover up is indefensible. It is possible to excuse mistakes on the day as being the result of inexperience, poor planning, technical failures and other matters beyond the control of the police or the club. Personally I think some of the manslaughter charges are harsh, given the circumstances. Police officers, individually and collectively may have been inept or stupid but even their harshest critics cannot believe they set out that day to let people die on a football pitch.

However,  it is impossible to excuse the subsequent deliberate lies and deceptions. To my mind that is where the true criminality lies, in perverting the course of justice.

That's why Duckinfeld is facing manslaughter charges and not murder charges. Nobody is suggesting he, or anybody else, acted with the intent of people losing their lives. However his actions ultimately led to the death of 96 people, and I believe he is desveredly facing the consequences of his actions.

Nobody who followed football in the 80s and travelled could fail to understand just how easily that disaster or the Bradford Fire could have unfolded at ANY big game in seriously outdated stadia.The ONLY mitigation for officers in/at the ground is when the initial fans started coming onto the pitch they would have suspected it was due to crowd trouble initially.Following on from that it was a catalogue of errors and it`s a miracle many more never died.The fans were innocent alright there were more than enough Police around but sadly they were ill trained and  badly led.Any officer who changed his statement should be prosecuted.

Quoted from 1mickylyons

Nobody who followed football in the 80s and travelled could fail to understand just how easily that disaster or the Bradford Fire could have unfolded at ANY big game in seriously outdated stadia.The ONLY mitigation for officers in/at the ground is when the initial fans started coming onto the pitch they would have suspected it was due to crowd trouble initially.Following on from that it was a catalogue of errors and it`s a miracle many more never died.The fans were innocent alright there were more than enough Police around but sadly they were ill trained and  badly led.Any officer who changed his statement should be prosecuted.

Very true. I can remember being in fear of my life in the Trent End at Forest and on the one and only time I went on the Kop at Anfield. In the mid-60s when MOTD was still in its infancy, they made great play of the spectators at various clubs for their singing and chanting and jumping around on the terraces. People today cannot comprehend that all this was new to most football fans. Rhythmic chanting was virtually unknown until the early 60s, singing was virtually unknown until the mid-60s and both spread because of TV exposure.

One thing you learned not to do if you could help it was arrive early for a game. Daft though it seems, this was true. Almost every 'kop' filled up at the last minute and for away fans in particular it was a badge of honour to have rushed the turnstile and the gate, got in for free and be in the stand before anyone could stop you. There was always an almighty surge as the yobs came in from the back and shoved everyone down. If you were unlucky enough to fall over you would be trampled and many people were, though it was rarely on the news, just a fact of football life.

The surge was another thing they learnt from the telly. At Anfield it was the 70s equivalent of the Mexican Wave, almost a trade mark. That was in the days before fences and barriers. If they decided to invade the pitch they would just climb over the people at the front to do it. There were more injuries from that than ever there were from fighting. Then some idiot at Chelsea invented the cage fence which made the situation many times more deadly and you can draw a line between that and Hillsborough.

I still don't think people realise what animals there were at games in those days and how they really didn't care who got hurt. You have to put events in the context of what people thought and expected at the time. It doesn't always make them right but I've never been in favour of imposing today's morals on yesterday's auto-reflex simply to get yourself a pound of flesh from somewhere.

As I said there is fault on both sides, but mainly the police's. Those who authorised and insisted on the changing of statements are the real criminals. You get idiotic football fans and you get police officers who make mistakes when under pressure but actively making a conscious decision to hide the truth about the disaster is criminal.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

Very true. I can remember being in fear of my life in the Trent End at Forest and on the one and only time I went on the Kop at Anfield. In the mid-60s when MOTD was still in its infancy, they made great play of the spectators at various clubs for their singing and chanting and jumping around on the terraces. People today cannot comprehend that all this was new to most football fans. Rhythmic chanting was virtually unknown until the early 60s, singing was virtually unknown until the mid-60s and both spread because of TV exposure.

One thing you learned not to do if you could help it was arrive early for a game. Daft though it seems, this was true. Almost every 'kop' filled up at the last minute and for away fans in particular it was a badge of honour to have rushed the turnstile and the gate, got in for free and be in the stand before anyone could stop you. There was always an almighty surge as the yobs came in from the back and shoved everyone down. If you were unlucky enough to fall over you would be trampled and many people were, though it was rarely on the news, just a fact of football life.

The surge was another thing they learnt from the telly. At Anfield it was the 70s equivalent of the Mexican Wave, almost a trade mark. That was in the days before fences and barriers. If they decided to invade the pitch they would just climb over the people at the front to do it. There were more injuries from that than ever there were from fighting. Then some idiot at Chelsea invented the cage fence which made the situation many times more deadly and you can draw a line between that and Hillsborough.

I still don't think people realise what animals there were at games in those days and how they really didn't care who got hurt. You have to put events in the context of what people thought and expected at the time. It doesn't always make them right but I've never been in favour of imposing today's morals on yesterday's auto-reflex simply to get yourself a pound of flesh from somewhere.

Not quite Ron, but almost. I remember my dad and I going to Anfield in the late 1960s to watch Liverpool vs Spurs. We got in fairly early and positioned ourselves behind one of the lean on crash barriers and thought "this is good2 Shortly after the match started it started, the crowd swayed and went all over the Kop as was the fashion. Dad and I got squashed very painfully behind the crash barrier. Once this finished we quickly went underneath and stood with our backs to it, a much better option.

Quoted from jock dock tower

Not quite Ron, but almost. I remember my dad and I going to Anfield in the late 1960s to watch Liverpool vs Spurs. We got in fairly early and positioned ourselves behind one of the lean on crash barriers and thought "this is good2 Shortly after the match started it started, the crowd swayed and went all over the Kop as was the fashion. Dad and I got squashed very painfully behind the crash barrier. Once this finished we quickly went underneath and stood with our backs to it, a much better option.

Re the surging of the crowd and crush, plus your earlier post re the Pontoon, sure I can recall a wooden barrier collapsing at a Grimsby v Scunthorpe game. Think it was Good Friday in 1971 ish and resulted in many bodies being piled up on the floor but fortunately no serious injuries.

Or did I just dream that happened?