Player Contracts

So these are the players in contract for next season & those out of contract. Which, if any, do you think we should be looking to keep for next season. I have to admit apart from Josh Emmanuel, keeping one of the goalkeepers & trying to make George Lloyd a permanent signing I'd be inclined to get rid of the rest of the senior pros.

And any of the contracted players we might try and move on?

Contracted for Next season

Goalkeepers

-

Defenders

Michee Efete
Anthony Driscoll-Glennon
Niall Maher
Luke Waterfall

Midfielders
           
Harry Clifton
Kieran Green
Gavan Holohan
Otis Khan
Evan Khouri
Alex Hunt

Forwards

Danilo Orsi

Out of Contract

Goalkeepers

Ollie Battersby
Max Crocombe

Defenders

Danny Amos
Jordan Cropper
Josh Emmanuel
Owen Gallacher
Shaun Pearson
(Andy Smith)

Midfielders

Bryn Morris
Sean Scannell
(Mikey O'Neill)

Forwards

Ryan Taylor
(Tom Dickson-Peters)
(George Lloyd)
(John McAtee)

1st & 2nd year Pros

Aaron Braithwaite
Jamie Bramwell
Edwin Essel
Jaz Goundry
Harvey Tomlinson

Contracted for Next season

Goalkeepers

- need 1 decent standard keeper + crocombe. To push eachother.

Defenders

Michee Efete  😃
Anthony Driscoll-Glennon 😃
Niall Maher 😃
Luke Waterfall 😃
(With a couple of additions and competition, ideally a couple more quality for these guys to work with/against)

Midfielders
           
Harry Clifton 😊😃
Kieran Green squad player
Gavan Holohan squad player
Otis Khan squad player
Evan Khouri up and Coming
Alex Hunt 😃
We need to add a couple of decent players in this area, in my opinion only 2-3 of them are good enough to be pushing the top of league 2.

Forwards

Danilo Orsi squad player

2 decent strikers (ideally Lloyd being 1) and a 3rd of Orsis ability to push them.

Out of Contract

Goalkeepers

Ollie Battersby - haven't seen him enough to comment.
Max Crocombe - if we sign a keeper who's very good and will push him for his spot then keep.

Defenders

Danny Amos 😃 would be happy to keep
Jordan Cropper
Josh Emmanuel 😃 would be happy to keep
Owen Gallacher
Shaun Pearson
(Andy Smith)

Midfielders

Bryn Morris
Sean Scannell
(Mikey O'Neill)

Forwards

Ryan Taylor
(Tom Dickson-Peters)
(George Lloyd) 🙏 yes pleasd
(John McAtee)

1st & 2nd year Pros

Aaron Braithwaite
Jamie Bramwell
Edwin Essel
Jaz Goundry
Harvey Tomlinson
Dont know enough about these lads.

Lukeo…..new chief scout 👍

Quoted from GollyGTFC

So these are the players in contract for next season & those out of contract. Which, if any, do you think we should be looking to keep for next season. I have to admit apart from Josh Emmanuel, keeping one of the goalkeepers & trying to make George Lloyd a permanent signing I'd be inclined to get rid of the rest of the senior pros.

And any of the contracted players we might try and move on?

Contracted for Next season

Goalkeepers

-

Defenders

Michee Efete
Anthony Driscoll-Glennon
Niall Maher
Luke Waterfall

Midfielders
           
Harry Clifton
Kieran Green
Gavan Holohan
Otis Khan
Evan Khouri
Alex Hunt

Forwards

Danilo Orsi

Out of Contract

Goalkeepers

Ollie Battersby
Max Crocombe

Defenders

Danny Amos
Jordan Cropper
Josh Emmanuel
Owen Gallacher
Shaun Pearson
(Andy Smith)

Midfielders

Bryn Morris
Sean Scannell
(Mikey O'Neill)

Forwards

Ryan Taylor
(Tom Dickson-Peters)
(George Lloyd)
(John McAtee)

1st & 2nd year Pros

Aaron Braithwaite
Jamie Bramwell
Edwin Essel
Jaz Goundry
Harvey Tomlinson

Agree with this, I doubt we’ll get Emmanuel but suspect PH will try, Lloyd is definitely worth a decent bid.

I just hope we recruit early and make the priority getting the attack done first.

I thought what PH said last week was interesting, he referenced the personal they wanted you’d assume he was talking about incoming players as well as the current squad.

Never agreed with the notion that you need a high quality keeper to push your no.1. For what you’d spend on two semi-decent keepers you might as well just go all out and get a top drawer one straight off. Then again, that position is probably more susceptible to fluctuations in form caused by a lack of confidence than anywhere else - remember when Mildenhall signed for us & Notts County fans had him down as one of their worst ever.

Quoted from ska face

Never agreed with the notion that you need a high quality keeper to push your no.1. For what you’d spend on two semi-decent keepers you might as well just go all out and get a top drawer one straight off. Then again, that position is probably more susceptible to fluctuations in form caused by a lack of confidence than anywhere else - remember when Mildenhall signed for us & Notts County fans had him down as one of their worst ever.

I would generally agree with you and I think Hurst is obviously open to that, like this season. But last season he obviously had doubts about mckeown and that was why he recruited crocombe as back up. An obvious difference is that crocombe is now out of contract, unlike mckeown was.

I though crocombe was really good first half ofbthe season, there is no doubt he's faded badly in the second half of the season though.

Personally I think Crocombe’s had his head turned. He had a really good run of form through the first half of the season then about 8/9 weeks ago gave a very non-committal interview to Humberside and hasn’t been the same since.

Obviously this is pure speculation on my part, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see him go in a free in the summer.

I would also renew Morris. Think he goes under the radar and is underated but out best spells of form have been with him in the team. Reminds me a little of Craig Clay.

Quoted from ska face

Personally I think Crocombe’s had his head turned. He had a really good run of form through the first half of the season then about 8/9 weeks ago gave a very non-committal interview to Humberside and hasn’t been the same since.

Obviously this is pure speculation on my part, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see him go in a free in the summer.

I’m with you on this Ska, I suspect he knows he’s got on offer on the table from elsewhere.

Quoted from Mariner93er

I would also renew Morris. Think he goes under the radar and is underated but out best spells of form have been with him in the team. Reminds me a little of Craig Clay.

No, no,no. Has a decent touch but has no pace, slows the game down and is not particularly effective in the physical area of the game. We need much better to progress.

Quoted from Lincoln Mariner 56

No, no,no. Has a decent touch but has no pace, slows the game down and is not particularly effective in the physical area of the game. We need much better to progress.

It’s took me quite a while to form my view but I completely agree with this.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

It’s took me quite a while to form my view but I completely agree with this.

Me too. I’d replace Holohan too if he wasn’t under contract.

Morris isn't up to the sufficient standard, I would rather have Raikhy than him. I also suspect Morris is on relatively high wages for us too given he came from league 1, which makes it an even easier decision.

Quoted from Mariner93er

I would also renew Morris. Think he goes under the radar and is underated but out best spells of form have been with him in the team. Reminds me a little of Craig Clay.

I actually would have kept Morris before yesterday  ,as i said in an earlier post I quite like him as a player .

But yesterday he did something that changed my mind -he gave the ball away in a really bad area and then attempted to get back , he could not move ,he is extremely slow on the recovery and if it ever gets played through the lines he is in  big trouble .

Would not renew

Quoted from Heisenberg

Me too. I’d replace Holohan too if he wasn’t under contract.

I would too. He gives possession away far too easily.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

I would too. He gives possession away far too easily.

Same

Quoted from toontown

Morris isn't up to the sufficient standard, I would rather have Raikhy than him. I also suspect Morris is on relatively high wages for us too given he came from league 1, which makes it an even easier decision.

Oohhh… now there’s an idea, PH clearly rated Raikhy and I understand he’s been released from Villa 🤔

Quoted from IlkleyMariner

Lukeo…..new chief scout 👍

*BLUSHES*

I clearly sat too long on the toilet with that post

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Oohhh… now there’s an idea, PH clearly rated Raikhy and I understand he’s been released from Villa 🤔

Green to do all the filthy stuff, Hunt and Raikhy pulling the strings - I like the sound of that.

Morris is the only midfielder out of contract so I think he will be released as we do need to strengthen there. I think Hunt could be moved on in the summer or shipped out on loan until January too unless he has a strong pre-season.

Quoted from jamesgtfc

Morris is the only midfielder out of contract so I think he will be released as we do need to strengthen there. I think Hunt could be moved on in the summer or shipped out on loan until January too unless he has a strong pre-season.

Moved on after paying six figures for him? No chance.

Quoted from Heisenberg

Green to do all the filthy stuff, Hunt and Raikhy pulling the strings - I like the sound of that.

Raikhy likes to get forward too.

Quoted from Heisenberg

Moved on after paying six figures for him? No chance.

He's barely played him since paying six figures and made a few references about wanting more height in the team. I just have a hunch that it's a transfer that won't work out unfortunately.

Quoted from Heisenberg

Moved on after paying six figures for him? No chance.

That ever actually been confirmed anywhere?

Not sure Hurst would’ve parted with £100k min for a lad with a handful of league appearances at relegated Oldham that he could’ve picked up for free in the summer.

I've heard the rumours of the fee varying from 100k to 30k, personally I would be very surprised indeed if we had paid 100k for someone with so few efl appearances, was totally unproven at league 2 level and was not really wanted by shef wed. I suspect it was closer to 30k than 100k.

Quoted from jamesgtfc

He's barely played him since paying six figures and made a few references about wanting more height in the team. I just have a hunch that it's a transfer that won't work out unfortunately.

Didn’t Hurst know he was small?

Looking at the contracts these players get in lower league eg one or two year deals and then could get released you realise how precarious being a footballer is at this level financially.  A fair few few wont be  on that much better salary wise than a teacher   but the teacher has relative permanent job security if he/ she does the job right for life . I can understand how some dont bother with it all and do a more secure profession financially and play football on the side semi professionally. Likewise Iam glad the new Grimsby owners alluded to this as well last year eg FA need to look at more provisions  for those players who get released especially lower tier .

I’ve been led to believe that the fee for Hunt wasn’t up front and was performance related, could eventually reach £100k. It might explain why he’s not played much.

This is what I would do…

Goalkeepers

Ollie Battersby - Sounds like he has potential, good to keep as he counts towards the home grown quota.

Max Crocombe - New one year deal. It’s ok wanting a better GK, getting one is another thing, Max is ok.

Defenders

Danny Amos - good enough to be deputy left back, new one year deal.

Jordan Cropper - that throw alone is such a weapon and makes Maher look like a 5 year old with a shot put. New one year deal

Josh Emmanuel - offer new 2 year deal but suspect he’ll have offers elsewhere

Owen Gallacher - release

Shaun Pearson - offer coaching role and keep playing registration just in case and to help youngsters through reserve games

(Andy Smith) - return to Hull

Midfielders

Bryn Morris - I don’t mind Morris but we need a new, better midfielder so he has to be moved on in my opinion. Suspect he’ll go back up north to a Hartlepool / Gateshead / Darlo

Sean Scannell - release

(Mikey O'Neill) - return to Preston

Forwards

Ryan Taylor - release

(Tom Dickson-Peters) - return to Norwich (if he hasn’t already)

(George Lloyd) - attempt to sign on permanent

(John McAtee) - return to Luton

1st & 2nd year Pros

Aaron Braithwaite
Jamie Bramwell
Edwin Essel
Jaz Goundry
Harvey Tomlinson - trigger extra one year options on all where applicable

Quoted from jamesgtfc

Morris is the only midfielder out of contract so I think he will be released as we do need to strengthen there. I think Hunt could be moved on in the summer or shipped out on loan until January too unless he has a strong pre-season.

We desperate need to improve the quality in midfield. Or should that be to get some quality in midfield.

Hopefully Hunt will be better next season if he gets a full preseason with us. Sheff Wed really shafted him by making him stay there until the window closed. Should have let him go in June. Really shoddy treatment for a player they didn’t want anymore and who is trying to establish himself in first team football.

Quoted from Rick12

Looking at the contracts these players get in lower league eg one or two year deals and then could get released you realise how precarious being a footballer is at this level financially.  A fair few few wont be  on that much better salary wise than a teacher   but the teacher has relative permanent job security if he/ she does the job right for life . I can understand how some dont bother with it all and do a more secure profession financially and play football on the side semi professionally. Likewise Iam glad the new Grimsby owners alluded to this as well last year eg FA need to look at more provisions  for those players who get released especially lower tier .

Credit to the owners as I understand that they’ve actually done something about it, I understand that part of Giles Coke’s role is to help the players think about what life could look like outside the game.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Credit to the owners as I understand that they’ve actually done something about it, I understand that part of Giles Coke’s role is to help the players think about what life could look like outside the game.

Good to read Herts . What puts things in perspective as well even from Grimsbys standpoint in the youth team is generally a low percentage will actually get any appearances for the first team. Same goes for other academy's in the lower leagues and premiership. Makes you appreciate how tough it is to make it .

Quoted from GollyGTFC

We desperate need to improve the quality in midfield. Or should that be to get some quality in midfield.

Agreed. It’s no coincidence that those clubs at the top end of the league have some top players in central midfield with experience well above League Two.

George Moncur and Darren Pratley at Orient. Michael Bostwick and Jake Forster-Caskey at Stevenage. Sarcevic at Stockport. Richie Smallwood at Bradford. Stephen Quinn at Mansfield.

Some good players there, and even if one or two of them are in the autumn of their careers have generally been mainstays for their teams this season. Of all our midfielders, only Morris has started games at a level higher than League Two, and hasn’t really been able to nail down a consistent place in the team.

If we can replace Morris with someone more akin to the above, that would be a very good start. Granted there are ways to do it and ways not to do it - another John Welsh is the last thing we need - and it’s not going to be an inexpensive acquisition, but objectively this kind of experience and quality is something we lack in comparison to the league’s top runners and riders.

Quoted from lukeo

*BLUSHES*

I clearly sat too long on the toilet with that post

Don’t worry

Sh1t happens

Quoted from GollyGTFC

I have to admit apart from Josh Emmanuel, keeping one of the goalkeepers & trying to make George Lloyd a permanent signing I'd be inclined to get rid of the rest of the senior pros.

Quite a sobering situation but I think I agree here.

Even Emmanuel has impressed in glimpses but largely has looked anonymous.  I suppose with him there is the absolute get-out that he's had so long out and then went straight into our starting eleven yet has done ok, with a full pre-season behind him he could be devestating.

My mindset on Crocombe is slowly changing. From looking like one of, if not the, best 'keepers in this league to a liability in a very short space of time.  Some interesting points raised on here, but for me it remains that we seem to go through this cycle of bringing in good 'keepers who tail off once they don't have serious competition.

I'm in agreement with skaface that we don't need two outstanding 'keepers but it feels to me like complacency has crept in here.  As it did with McKeown, who continually picked up once his place was under threat.  Battersby isn't a threat and the sheer number of games he hasn't played suggests that Hurst doesn't view him as ready to challenge.   If Crocombe can get close to what he produced last season and the beginning of this season then we should want to keep him, but he needs to know he's going to be challenged.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

Didn’t Hurst know he was small?

Hurst might think he's still growing

Quoted from Poojah

Agreed. It’s no coincidence that those clubs at the top end of the league have some top players in central midfield with experience well above League Two.

George Moncur and Darren Pratley at Orient. Michael Bostwick and Jake Forster-Caskey at Stevenage. Sarcevic at Stockport. Richie Smallwood at Bradford. Stephen Quinn at Mansfield.

Some good players there, and even if one or two of them are in the autumn of their careers have generally been mainstays for their teams this season. Of all our midfielders, only Morris has started games at a level higher than League Two, and hasn’t really been able to nail down a consistent place in the team.

If we can replace Morris with someone more akin to the above, that would be a very good start. Granted there are ways to do it and ways not to do it - another John Welsh is the last thing we need - and it’s not going to be an inexpensive acquisition, but objectively this kind of experience and quality is something we lack in comparison to the league’s top runners and riders.

Need someone who can drive the ball forward through the middle of the park. Fox did it well at the end of last season, Jay Matete was fantastic at it, but we don’t have anyone in that mould at the minute. Morris and Hunt play the ball well but are quite static when they receive it. Green & Holohan have their qualities but this isn’t one of them.

At the minute if we want to progress up the pitch it invariably requires a long(ish) ball into the channels or the full backs bombing on. It’s all a bit basic and quite easy to defend if you haven’t got really good movement up top. We need someone with a bit of physicality who can carry it 10-15 yards and ride a challenge before offloading.

If we manage to pick up someone with those qualities, I think we’ve a decent midfield 3 with Hunt & Green alongside them.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Quite a sobering situation but I think I agree here.

Even Emmanuel has impressed in glimpses but largely has looked anonymous.  I suppose with him there is the absolute get-out that he's had so long out and then went straight into our starting eleven yet has done ok, with a full pre-season behind him he could be devestating.

My mindset on Crocombe is slowly changing. From looking like one of, if not the, best 'keepers in this league to a liability in a very short space of time.  Some interesting points raised on here, but for me it remains that we seem to go through this cycle of bringing in good 'keepers who tail off once they don't have serious competition.

I'm in agreement with skaface that we don't need two outstanding 'keepers but it feels to me like complacency has crept in here.  As it did with McKeown, who continually picked up once his place was under threat.  Battersby isn't a threat and the sheer number of games he hasn't played suggests that Hurst doesn't view him as ready to challenge.   If Crocombe can get close to what he produced last season and the beginning of this season then we should want to keep him, but he needs to know he's going to be challenged.

If we keep Max i highly doubt we will bring in another senior keeper , Hurst has always only had one in the main throughout his time in management -i still dont think we always have Battersby on the bench ; think it's one senior keeper and an emergency loan if that keeper gets injured .

Quoted from Mappers

If we keep Max i highly doubt we will bring in another senior keeper , Hurst has always only had one in the main throughout his time in management -i still dont think we always have Battersby on the bench ; think it's one senior keeper and an emergency loan if that keeper gets injured .

Let’s not forget that Crocombe was the other ‘keeper. Perhaps it was a prescient move and Hurst knew the end was nigh for McKeown, but it was certainly handy to have Max to step straight in and make the shirt his own.

Quoted from ska face

Need someone who can drive the ball forward through the middle of the park. Fox did it well at the end of last season, Jay Matete was fantastic at it, but we don’t have anyone in that mould at the minute. Morris and Hunt play the ball well but are quite static when they receive it. Green & Holohan have their qualities but this isn’t one of them.

At the minute if we want to progress up the pitch it invariably requires a long(ish) ball into the channels or the full backs bombing on. It’s all a bit basic and quite easy to defend if you haven’t got really good movement up top. We need someone with a bit of physicality who can carry it 10-15 yards and ride a challenge before offloading.

If we manage to pick up someone with those qualities, I think we’ve a decent midfield 3 with Hunt & Green alongside them.

The best player we have for that is Clifton, who can definitely drive forward from midfield, although whether he is still here next season...

Based solely on his time here, I wouldn't mind seeing Jake Eastwood signing in the summer as competition/challenge to the No 1 shirt.

I thought he looked very good, albeit via iFollow, but he's not really kicked on as expected and is losing the battle of the ex-Town loanees with Richard O'Donnell at Rochdale.

Keepers at the very top level are flawed and the best in the world make mistakes and have shortcomings. People need to get real about our level. Max is great. Another keeper would be welcome, but people looking for perfection consistently are in cloud cuckoo land.

I'm struggling to have seen any evidence at all for the Hunt love in. Apart from a very good start in the National League for a couple of months he's been shocking. I was really happy when we signed him permanently but every game I've seen him play he's been virtually anonymous.

Personally I'd keep Green, Clifton & Holohan and replace Hunt and Morris.

Quoted from chaos33

Keepers at the very top level are flawed and the best in the world make mistakes and have shortcomings. People need to get real about our level. Max is great. Another keeper would be welcome, but people looking for perfection consistently are in cloud cuckoo land.

Totally agree, if we can sign Max up again at sensible money just do it.

Concentrate on 3 key signings;

A good mobile CB to replace Smith (assuming he goes back to Hull)
A true box to box centre mid to allow Hunt to play to the best of his ability
A decent mobile target man (hopefully to partner Lloyd)

Yes, I get we could improve in other positions, but spend the majority of any cash we have on the above to ensure a strong spine to the starting 11 and I’m sure we’ll not be far away, and will certainly move forward

Quoted from lee65

Totally agree, if we can sign Max up again at sensible money just do it.

Concentrate on 3 key signings;

A good mobile CB to replace Smith (assuming he goes back to Hull)
A true box to box centre mid to allow Hunt to play to the best of his ability
A decent mobile target man (hopefully to partner Lloyd)

Yes, I get we could improve in other positions, but spend the majority of any cash we have on the above to ensure a strong spine to the starting 11 and I’m sure we’ll not be far away, and will certainly move forward

As both keepers on the books are out of contract I’d suggest that sorting 2 for next season is more pressing than some realise.

People are assuming Max will re-sign for us, I think he may have been examining his options for a while just like PH will be.

Quoted from lee65

Totally agree, if we can sign Max up again at sensible money just do it.

Concentrate on 3 key signings;

A good mobile CB to replace Smith (assuming he goes back to Hull)
A true box to box centre mid to allow Hunt to play to the best of his ability
A decent mobile target man (hopefully to partner Lloyd)

Yes, I get we could improve in other positions, but spend the majority of any cash we have on the above to ensure a strong spine to the starting 11 and I’m sure we’ll not be far away, and will certainly move forward

Your not going to get a truer box to box midfielder anywhere in league 2 than Harry clifton, absolutely incredible engine on him to allow him to get up and down the pitch Involved in defence and attack. Also has pace and is a strong tackler, not a great shooter but good enough to be up around our top scorer.

Has Hunt played just with Harry in a 2? Personally I have doubts hunt is consistently up to a midfield 2 at league 2 level, certainly the way he is playing.

Quoted from toontown

Your not going to get a truer box to box midfielder anywhere in league 2 than Harry clifton, absolutely incredible engine on him to allow him to get up and down the pitch Involved in defence and attack. Also has pace and is a strong tackler, not a great shooter but good enough to be up around our top scorer.

Has Hunt played just with Harry in a 2? Personally I have doubts hunt is consistently up to a midfield 2 at league 2 level, certainly the way he is playing.

I thought the same, Green scrapping & holding , Harry making the pressing runs and Hunt finding the players that move into space would be my midfield combination with possibly Khan on the left.

Hunt hasn’t shown anywhere near enough to be considered for a starting spot.

You just know when midfielders have that something special that they show consistently, Embleton, Robson and Matete in recent years that spring to mind, and sadly other than a couple of months in the National League, Hunt hasn’t shown anything like that.

I think we always look fragile with Hunt in and for me is the last pick of the midfielders on current form. I hope he comes good and time is on his side , got talent but often the invisible man and in a Hurst grafting team needs to work harder

[quote=1122]

To Paul Hurst everyone seems tall.

When Hunt first came on loan his dead ball kicks were excellent, 2nd to none in our squad. This season he has become a bit of an enigma, which I suppose could be down to being in and out of the team.

That said players do have to take the opportunity when it is given to them to shine and nail down their position, just like Clifton. I don't think size has anything to do with it as shown by Lloyd challenging for headers against taller defenders.

Wasn’t there something a while back about crocombe being wanted by a Scottish Prem side. Am thinking Kilmarnock but can’t remember who it was

Most, if not all, midfielders will look better in a 3 than a 2.  

If you're more attack minded the extra man in there gives you a bit more freedom from the defensive minded game.  For the more defensive minded player there's less expectation that you'll bomb on/create, because someone has to sit in a 3-man midfield.

Be it Hunt, Green, Morris, even Clifton...everyone will look better in a 3-man midfield.  Equally so pretty much every midfielder at this level has significant flaws in their game, it's why they're at this level and I believe why more and more teams play with a 3-man midfield.

Going with a 2 in there is fine, but you've got to have that balance.  Unless you've got two guys who can do it all (get round the pitch, pick a pass, be physical and contribute with goals/assists) then you've got to find a compromise.  I've been watching town since late 80's/early 90's and I can only really remember a couple of pairings that had it all and worked in perfect tandem with each other.  Cunnington/Cockerill, Groves/Burnett and then arguably Groves/Dobbin for a short period.  

Clifton definitely is someone who can do it all.  But if you paired him in a two with, let's say, Green then his impact is less because the expectation is that he then becomes that pure attacker from midfield whereas I think Harry's strength is his sheer engine and ability to get all over the pitch.  I think he could do a job where he's told his focus on getting forward and worrying less about what's going on behind him, but I don't think it's working to his strengths. Equally so you put him in with Holohan and there's always likely to be a midfielder ahead of him and his options to push on are limited.

Short of it is that we don't and aren't likely to have a midfield pairing that will work in perfect tandem with each other, we'll either need to go for a balancing act or a 3-man midfield.  

Based solely on what we've got right now, I'd go for a 3 with Green as the one who breaks stuff up and then Hunt ahead of him to use his technical ability a bit more (feel he's quite limited when he sits deep because our movement isn't good enough ahead of him) with Clifton acting as the midfielder general who does a bit of everything but not sitting as deep as Green.

It's harsh but to my eyes Holohan is someone we need to upgrade on and I really like him.  I like his attitude, I like his tenacity but I don't think he's as good physically as Green and certainly wouldn't see him as someone capable of stepping into that protection role.  Equally so I think we need better from our attacking midfielders and he doesn't score or create enough for me.  Morris simply doesn't offer enough when he plays, slows the play down a lot and whilst he can read the game well I think he lacks the physical attributes to effective.  

Hunt, as others have pointed out, is dining out on 18 months ago at the minute.  But he's also got a considerably lengthy contract.  I do think what he's shown previously is enough to suggest there's enough in him to be effective, we've just got to use him right.  In the Conference he had Sousa, Bapaga and McAtee buzzing around, running in behind defenders and creating space all over the pitch.  This season we've just looked completely static.  He absolutely needs to be offering more but his strength is picking people out, we've not really given him the options to pick out for the vast majority of the season.

Think there's some harsh comments on Hunt on this thread.

I've not seen him not working hard or pulling his weight when he's played. He's slight in build but isn't afraid to put tackles in. He's been inconsistent but who hasn't been this season? And it's hard to get consistency when the midfield has changed almost game-by-game in the last few months.

He's one of the few players who can play an incisive pass to break defensive lines, and needs players ahead of him that want the ball to be able to show that ability.

When did we see the best of Hunt? Playing in a 4231 with Bapaga, McAtee and Clifton playing as the 3. Three runners, three people who would be moving to get on the ball and be making forward runs. A lot of his games this season, which have been sporadic at best because PH has rotated central midfield on a weekly basis for much of the season, we have had one centre forward and not much supporting that. We've had this 5 at the back for long periods where we don't have any width high up the pitch so everything was funnelled down the middle into the crowded area around the centre forward.

So I dont think we've particularly played systems or personnel that would bring the best out of Hunt for large parts of the season. Its funny having this discussion now because I get the feeling that the 1st half plan that wasnt followed according to Hurst was to play out from the back and be brave, Smith being left with no options a lot of the time and having to just play a percentage ball. Hunt is obviously one who does want to get the ball off the defenders and play.

He was one of our best players at Southampton and I'd certainly be keeping him and looking to add better technical players to our team for him to combine with.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Most, if not all, midfielders will look better in a 3 than a 2.  

If you're more attack minded the extra man in there gives you a bit more freedom from the defensive minded game.  For the more defensive minded player there's less expectation that you'll bomb on/create, because someone has to sit in a 3-man midfield.

Be it Hunt, Green, Morris, even Clifton...everyone will look better in a 3-man midfield.  Equally so pretty much every midfielder at this level has significant flaws in their game, it's why they're at this level and I believe why more and more teams play with a 3-man midfield.

Going with a 2 in there is fine, but you've got to have that balance.  Unless you've got two guys who can do it all (get round the pitch, pick a pass, be physical and contribute with goals/assists) then you've got to find a compromise.  I've been watching town since late 80's/early 90's and I can only really remember a couple of pairings that had it all and worked in perfect tandem with each other.  Cunnington/Cockerill, Groves/Burnett and then arguably Groves/Dobbin for a short period.  

Clifton definitely is someone who can do it all.  But if you paired him in a two with, let's say, Green then his impact is less because the expectation is that he then becomes that pure attacker from midfield whereas I think Harry's strength is his sheer engine and ability to get all over the pitch.  I think he could do a job where he's told his focus on getting forward and worrying less about what's going on behind him, but I don't think it's working to his strengths. Equally so you put him in with Holohan and there's always likely to be a midfielder ahead of him and his options to push on are limited.

Short of it is that we don't and aren't likely to have a midfield pairing that will work in perfect tandem with each other, we'll either need to go for a balancing act or a 3-man midfield.  

Based solely on what we've got right now, I'd go for a 3 with Green as the one who breaks stuff up and then Hunt ahead of him to use his technical ability a bit more (feel he's quite limited when he sits deep because our movement isn't good enough ahead of him) with Clifton acting as the midfielder general who does a bit of everything but not sitting as deep as Green.

It's harsh but to my eyes Holohan is someone we need to upgrade on and I really like him.  I like his attitude, I like his tenacity but I don't think he's as good physically as Green and certainly wouldn't see him as someone capable of stepping into that protection role.  Equally so I think we need better from our attacking midfielders and he doesn't score or create enough for me.  Morris simply doesn't offer enough when he plays, slows the play down a lot and whilst he can read the game well I think he lacks the physical attributes to effective.  

Hunt, as others have pointed out, is dining out on 18 months ago at the minute.  But he's also got a considerably lengthy contract.  I do think what he's shown previously is enough to suggest there's enough in him to be effective, we've just got to use him right.  In the Conference he had Sousa, Bapaga and McAtee buzzing around, running in behind defenders and creating space all over the pitch.  This season we've just looked completely static.  He absolutely needs to be offering more but his strength is picking people out, we've not really given him the options to pick out for the vast majority of the season.

It was a different game when it was standard 4-4-2  there wasn not really a holding midfield player one would just stay and one would go , seems to have gone out of fashion now .

Quoted from Roast Em Bobby

I'm struggling to have seen any evidence at all for the Hunt love in. Apart from a very good start in the National League for a couple of months he's been shocking.

That's just simply not true.

Crawley away, Orient at home, Crewe away, Luton away, Plymouth at home, Stockport away, Salford away, Colchester away...all matches that Hunt played well in. That's about half of his appearances for us this season.

Hunt was signed for the long term. He's still relatively inexperienced and will eventually come good with better players around him I reckon.

This is a tougher league than the National league and I think people are expecting too much too soon.

Quoted from Zmariner

I think we always look fragile with Hunt in and for me is the last pick of the midfielders on current form. I hope he comes good and time is on his side , got talent but often the invisible man and in a Hurst grafting team needs to work harder

I agree, but without McAtee to fit into the team Hurst might revert to the 4-1-4-1 system he used to great success at Shrewsbury. Hunt and somebody else with a Green type player sat in front of the back 4.

Hunt is probably a victim of so many clubs always playing 3 central midfielders in senior and youth football. He sometimes looks lost in a midfield 2. Not so much when he had Giles Coke next to him but with less experiences and vocal partners.

Quoted from ginnywings

Hunt was signed for the long term. He's still relatively inexperienced and will eventually come good with better players around him I reckon.

This is a tougher league than the National league and I think people are expecting too much too soon.

I worry about our priorities when our seemingly most talented players don’t get game time. Even more when Green seems to be the chosen one in midfield.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

I worry about our priorities when our seemingly most talented players don’t get game time. Even more when Green seems to be the chosen one in midfield.

A good point and this is where the manager comes into his own.

At the start of seemingly every season, we play some lovely attacking stuff but as the season goes on the manager reverts to more and more tinkering and putting more defensive players in, and gradually loses interest in the attacking players he was waxing lyrical about when he signed them. We got out of jail last season with a once-in-a-lifetime set of results and performances.

If he really just wants a team of workmanlike grafters, then so be it, but he needs this to be transferred to his recruitment policy otherwise we are wasting our money on players like Hunt, and forward players whose first instinct is not to track back all the time.  

I appreciate we are not going to play like Man City in League 2, and we want a winning team first and foremost, but "working hard and giving 100% every minute in training" does not necessarily mean success. Some players are average in training but come alive with the adrenaline of match days, whilst others might be leaving everything on the training pitch and struggle on match day. I would suggest match days are more important than training.

Hurst mentioned he wants good characters again the other day. No wonder we sometimes struggle with recruitment if he is looking for a hardworking, gives 100% in training saint.

It will be very interesting to see which road we go down in the summer; I don't expect any signings to cause us to go wow, and I don't expect any of our first-choice targets to sign as they will get better offers elsewhere given Hurst's comment the other week that he thinks too many players get paid too much. I don't think it is in Hurst's character to chase players either; even with Lloyd when speaking on the radio he sounds like he can take it or leave it.

Reading this back to myself I think I probably want a change in manager.  

Quoted from Son of Cod

That's just simply not true.

Crawley away, Orient at home, Crewe away, Luton away, Plymouth at home, Stockport away, Salford away, Colchester away...all matches that Hunt played well in. That's about half of his appearances for us this season.

I've seen all of those games bar one, and he didn't strike me as being a standout in any of them. I've watched him really closely in a number of matches (because I've always been willing him to do well) but he's nearly always 10m metres away from the ball when tackles are going in. I'm not disputing that he's a great passer and has good vision, but he's not physically up to the rough and tumble of League Two football. He'd probably do a lot better in a higher league.

Must say, good debate this   👍

I too feel Harry could be that box to box CM, but he never seems to get a run there.  I still think Hunt is one of the few who can “pick a pass”, but needs protection around him and runners to aim at.
I love the way Green gets stuck in and offers height/heading ability but he can look agricultural and limited too (which is ok perhaps in league 2?)

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

A good point and this is where the manager comes into his own.

At the start of seemingly every season, we play some lovely attacking stuff but as the season goes on the manager reverts to more and more tinkering and putting more defensive players in, and gradually loses interest in the attacking players he was waxing lyrical about when he signed them. We got out of jail last season with a once-in-a-lifetime set of results and performances.

If he really just wants a team of workmanlike grafters, then so be it, but he needs this to be transferred to his recruitment policy otherwise we are wasting our money on players like Hunt, and forward players whose first instinct is not to track back all the time.  

I appreciate we are not going to play like Man City in League 2, and we want a winning team first and foremost, but "working hard and giving 100% every minute in training" does not necessarily mean success. Some players are average in training but come alive with the adrenaline of match days, whilst others might be leaving everything on the training pitch and struggle on match day. I would suggest match days are more important than training.

Hurst mentioned he wants good characters again the other day. No wonder we sometimes struggle with recruitment if he is looking for a hardworking, gives 100% in training saint.

It will be very interesting to see which road we go down in the summer; I don't expect any signings to cause us to go wow, and I don't expect any of our first-choice targets to sign as they will get better offers elsewhere given Hurst's comment the other week that he thinks too many players get paid too much. I don't think it is in Hurst's character to chase players either; even with Lloyd when speaking on the radio he sounds like he can take it or leave it.

Reading this back to myself I think I probably want a change in manager.  

Thing is with this once-in-a-lifetime get out of jail card, it was Hurst's signings who produced those performances.  From front to back there's only two players I can think of who weren't a Hurst signing and that's Clifton and Waterfall.  Clifton has improved under all our managers, but none more so than under Hurst whereas Waterfall was a reformed player.

In midfield we had Holohan and Fox, who looked as good as any pairing we've had for a long time. Just a shame it was cut short.  Both Hurst signings and it was he who paired them together.

I get the frustration with Hurst's safe approach and I'm often crying out for him to go for someone who's a bit of a maverick.  But it's the safe and steady good characters that he gets success with.  As said before, I like Hunt, but he isn't safe.  Where was it away recently when he was robbed in possession in front of goal for them to score and it completely changed the game, we were on top up to that point.

There's a balance to be had, I think as fans we're probably  at polar opposites to Hurst but neither are anywhere near the middle.  

I think if Hunt & Orsi were allowed a few games together we might see a big improvement in bioth and they would really compliment each other

Quoted from MuddyWaters

I worry about our priorities when our seemingly most talented players don’t get game time. Even more when Green seems to be the chosen one in midfield.

Green is a different type of player to Hunt though, so I'm not sure he is keeping him out of the team.

I've got no problem with Green in the first 11 myself. They can't all be forward thinking players in midfield.

Quoted from Roast Em Bobby

I've seen all of those games bar one, and he didn't strike me as being a standout in any of them. I've watched him really closely in a number of matches (because I've always been willing him to do well) but he's nearly always 10m metres away from the ball when tackles are going in. I'm not disputing that he's a great passer and has good vision, but he's not physically up to the rough and tumble of League Two football. He'd probably do a lot better in a higher league.

We weren't talking about him being a standout player though, I was disproving this myth that he's been shocking (your word not mine) all season.

Contrary to popular belief on here, Hunt can and does tackle. His total tackles won:minutes played is fine and in keeping with the rest of the midfield. The reason he's often not in the thick of it is because he's probably been instructed to peel off and and try to find space because he can do some damage if he gets the ball in the right areas at the right time. He's obviously not the finished article and he's not been a key player but to say he's been crap isn't really fair in my opinion.

I’m not saying Hunt is anywhere near as talented as Wayne Burnett, but they are of a similar style in terms of wanting to feel the ball at their feet and being (relatively) more expansive with their passing.

Burnett was 27 when he signed for Town.

I do think Hunt will be a far better player at 27 than he is now, at 22. That might sound obvious but it can often be the other way around. Hunt will naturally fill out physically and his style of play usually requires more experience. There are few deep lying creative midfielders (registas) who can control the midfield at a young age (Modric and Fabregas did it, Pedri is doing it). Xavi, Pirlo, Xabi Alonso all grew into the roles.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that most of Hunt’s better performances this season have been against higher quality opposition. Once we get promoted, he’ll be fine!

Quoted from ginnywings

Green is a different type of player to Hunt though, so I'm not sure he is keeping him out of the team.

I've got no problem with Green in the first 11 myself. They can't all be forward thinking players in midfield.

I accept that they are different but when both Holohan and Green play together we cough up possession far too easily. I’m very torn regarding Green, I can see positives but can also see why he was non league before coming to us.

Quoted from Knut Anders Fosters Voles

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that most of Hunt’s better performances this season have been against higher quality opposition.

Yep, I thought this too as I was compiling that list posted above.

Unfortunately, the main characteristics required to get out of League Two are height, strength, physicality, mobility and hard graft. The vast majority of goals that are scored in the league are from high balls into the box. Although I'd much prefer to watch it, I think the idea that we can do well with Hunt playing the iniesta role, stroking passes on the deck into quick forwards is a bit fanciful in League Two.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

I accept that they are different but when both Holohan and Green play together we cough up possession far too easily. I’m very torn regarding Green, I can see positives but can also see why he was non league before coming to us.

You can add Clifton to that too. He squanders position too much. It’s his one glaring weakness. Which is probably why Hurst opts to use his energy out wide and further forward where giving away possession cheaply is less likely to cost us.

However if Clifton was better at that he wouldn’t still be here. He would have got an offer he couldn’t refuse last summer rather than one he could.

Quoted from Tommy

Think there's some harsh comments on Hunt on this thread.

I've not seen him not working hard or pulling his weight when he's played. He's slight in build but isn't afraid to put tackles in. He's been inconsistent but who hasn't been this season? And it's hard to get consistency when the midfield has changed almost game-by-game in the last few months.

He's one of the few players who can play an incisive pass to break defensive lines, and needs players ahead of him that want the ball to be able to show that ability.

When did we see the best of Hunt? Playing in a 4231 with Bapaga, McAtee and Clifton playing as the 3. Three runners, three people who would be moving to get on the ball and be making forward runs. A lot of his games this season, which have been sporadic at best because PH has rotated central midfield on a weekly basis for much of the season, we have had one centre forward and not much supporting that. We've had this 5 at the back for long periods where we don't have any width high up the pitch so everything was funnelled down the middle into the crowded area around the centre forward.

So I dont think we've particularly played systems or personnel that would bring the best out of Hunt for large parts of the season. Its funny having this discussion now because I get the feeling that the 1st half plan that wasnt followed according to Hurst was to play out from the back and be brave, Smith being left with no options a lot of the time and having to just play a percentage ball. Hunt is obviously one who does want to get the ball off the defenders and play.

He was one of our best players at Southampton and I'd certainly be keeping him and looking to add better technical players to our team for him to combine with.

Great post Tommy , just wish you were more regular .

Always a lot of sense spoken.

Apart from about Michee - he's both a footballer and athlete in equal mesure .

Quoted from Roast Em Bobby

Unfortunately, the main characteristics required to get out of League Two are height, strength, physicality, mobility and hard graft. The vast majority of goals that are scored in the league are from high balls into the box. Although I'd much prefer to watch it, I think the idea that we can do well with Hunt playing the iniesta role, stroking passes on the deck into quick forwards is a bit fanciful in League Two.

What like Sutton, Gillingham and Bradford who all had squads of 7ft beasts but haven’t come close to troubling the top 3? Absolute myth that a team can’t accommodate someone capable of passing the ball who isn’t 6’3” and 15st. A boring, reductive view that gets peddled at every level below the Championship.

The thing I like about green is that he’s always the first to get the tackle in. Unfortunately it’s more often than not from his wayward  control or  pass!

Hunt reminds me of a QB in American football, gets the ball, take a step back to create space, looks up to see how many options he has of people running further forward, sees few/none, delays and gets “sacked” (hence he doesn’t look too good himself)

Quoted from ska face

What like Sutton, Gillingham and Bradford who all had squads of 7ft beasts but haven’t come close to troubling the top 3? Absolute myth that a team can’t accommodate someone capable of passing the ball who isn’t 6’3” and 15st. A boring, reductive view that gets peddled at every level below the Championship.

Barring a few teams, I actually don't think there are many physical teams in the league. Most are similar to Town, try to play football, but often not well. Hence why there are a lot of drab games.

Quoted from ska face

What like Sutton, Gillingham and Bradford who all had squads of 7ft beasts but haven’t come close to troubling the top 3? Absolute myth that a team can’t accommodate someone capable of passing the ball who isn’t 6’3” and 15st. A boring, reductive view that gets peddled at every level below the Championship.

I'm not arguing a team can’t accommodate someone capable of passing the ball who isn’t 6’3” and 15st. But if the only thing that a player can do that is useful to the team is pass the ball well, but not win many challenges and a header or two and doesn't have a great engine and work ethic then a team hoping to push for promotion cannot afford to carry such a player. When he plays all these great passes, he will still be passing to players without such good technically ability who will commonly cede possession, and at that point he becomes more or less useless as he can't hardly offer much at all to the team when we're out of possession.

It's not just about teams who take an overly-physical approach - though they certainly exist!

Last night, Barrow had perhaps 4 or 5 players that were much taller than any of ours - the mismatch at set pieces was almost comical so we did well to keep them out from them. They also had a few players who were quicker than any of ours. Their number 11 was distinctly rapid and their left winger and a couple of midfielders were also pretty nippy.

Hurst has alluded to the need to get a bit more physicality into the squad which should help us when we're playing the big up and at 'em teams and also teams such as Barrow who played some football at times, but also had a lot of big guys for set pieces.

Hopefully, any new signings won't give away as many stupid free-kicks as our players did yet again last night! The referee was rubbish (again), but didn't really have much of a choice but award lots of free-kicks for pointless nudges and pulls.

Quoted from Roast Em Bobby

I'm not arguing a team can’t accommodate someone capable of passing the ball who isn’t 6’3” and 15st. But if the only thing that a player can do that is useful to the team is pass the ball well, but not win many challenges and a header or two and doesn't have a great engine and work ethic then a team hoping to push for promotion cannot afford to carry such a player. When he plays all these great passes, he will still be passing to players without such good technically ability who will commonly cede possession, and at that point he becomes more or less useless as he can't hardly offer much at all to the team when we're out of possession.

I get tired of seeing this argument as if only players on the telly have a good enough touch. Hunt can tackle and pass a very good ball. Green can tackle better than Hunt, can pass a ball but doesn't have the range that Hunt has. It's not black and white, just shades of grey getting the right blend. Seriously, players at any level getting paid have a decent touch, just some better than others..

The only one I'd bring back is Crocombe. I've not seen anything from the 1st year pros to make a fair decision on them. I will happily drive Morris to another club.

If you watched Chelsea last night you would see how awful Reece James was he couldn't chest a football (without it going of of play) such a poor touches from someone on huge wages.

Quoted from Meza

If you watched Chelsea last night you would see how awful Reece James was he couldn't chest a football (without it going of of play) such a poor touches from someone on huge wages.

Don't worry - PH will have taken note, and I feel sure we won't see him at BP anytime soon.  

If we are going for continuity - retain /aspire to keep
Crocombe
Batersbey
Efete& Emmanuel
Amos/Glennon
Smith/Waterfall
Maher/Ball playing CB
Cropper

Clifton/Khan
Green/Holahan
Khouri/High quality Midfield player
Hunt / 1 quality wide midfield player

Taylor /orsi
Lloyd
2 decent new ones up top

+ 2 or 3 better QUALITY loans signings .

Release
Morris
Scannell
+anyone else i have missed

Crocombe needs competition to keep him sharp.

Barrow showed last night how an accurate long pass to a speedy winger who could trap the ball, then turn and run at pace, can be highly productive.

Passing to their keeper or out for throw ins is less than useful.

However - damn good shot stopper in most instances.

We need to sign players for next season who look comfortable on the ball, can pass accurately with good pace, and preferably finds a player in our own colours.

Other teams seem to be able to find players of this ilk at Div 2 level, whereas our passing, especially from the new"play out from the back" system is slow and sloppy , with poor control leading to tackles flying in.

Can we sign this type of player to improve the squad?

A Taylor replacement, a new Fox, or another Souza , (with end product ) would all be potential fan favourites !

Come on down, Head of Recruitment, time to shine !!

Quoted from Meza

If you watched Chelsea last night you would see how awful Reece James was he couldn't chest a football (without it going of of play) such a poor touches from someone on huge wages.

Why are you watching Chelsea when town are playing?

Ryan. Bennett only signed for Cambridge  until the end of the season.

Worth a punt as he said wages would not be a problem.

At the very least he would get our  defence organised.

Quoted from Roast Em Bobby

I'm not arguing a team can’t accommodate someone capable of passing the ball who isn’t 6’3” and 15st. But if the only thing that a player can do that is useful to the team is pass the ball well, but not win many challenges and a header or two and doesn't have a great engine and work ethic then a team hoping to push for promotion cannot afford to carry such a player. When he plays all these great passes, he will still be passing to players without such good technically ability who will commonly cede possession, and at that point he becomes more or less useless as he can't hardly offer much at all to the team when we're out of possession.

Perhaps ask Mr Hurst how and why Hunt got a three year contract? And regards the engine and work ethic comment, please give us some evidence that he lacks either or both.

I'm glad its not just me that doesn't get the Hunt love in, after the first dozen or so games of last season he was in and out of the team and when Ben Fox, the type of midfielder i think we've really missed, got into his stride i didn't hear too many calling for Hunt's return. If we'd had signed him this season on a one year deal without seeing him before i don't think too many would be disappointed to see him leave.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

Perhaps ask Mr Hurst how and why Hunt got a three year contract? And regards the engine and work ethic comment, please give us some evidence that he lacks either or both.

I think the amount of game time he's been given this season is the evidence. I also seem to remember him being taken off at half-time when he did get a rare start due to being completely anonymous.

I can't find much in the way of concrete stats other than this - https://www.whoscored.com/Players/361753/Show/Alex-Hunt - nothing there to give a compelling case for him either.

As I've said earlier in the thread, I was a massive fan of him, I was buzzing when we signed him, and I really hope he has a good career - but I've seen nothing at all to convince me that he can be a key player in a League 2 team wanting to push for promotion. I hope I'm wrong.

Quoted from 137

Don't worry - PH will have taken note, and I feel sure we won't see him at BP anytime soon.  

Haha I cant even recall why I posted that its not even town related.....honestly you hit 50 and your mind turns to sh*t haha