Lincoln post losses of £2m!!

Quoted from Les Brechin

https://www.weareimps.com/news/2023/january/lincoln-city-release-annual-accounts/

There were rumours of some funding being pulled. Anecdotal 'evidence' was us being able to get Croudson back and the fact we allegedly matched Lincoln's offer to Fox before Northampton blew us all out of the water.

Do they need to lighten the player bill then?

If so  is that where the many rumours about their 2 players is staying live on here ?

Did anyone on here have prior of the impending loss?

Certainly we have had to cut our cloth accordingly.
The losses have been covered and will be covered by additional funding.

Very difficult when Teams such as Wednesday, Bolton, P'Mouth, Derby, Ipswich, Peterborough and Charlton etc etc have budgets of 10 million plus are in the same division - I think it must be the strongest ever L1 I have known - I think Debt is inevitable.

We are also getting more money from the American family that invest - However, to be competitive in League one is getting impossible. Need a cup run, be lucky otherwise you are batting to avoid the bottom 4.

Genuine questions - What guarantees are in place for this funding to continue to bankroll the club? Because those are hefty weekly losses if someone decides to cut their losses at some point.

Also, what's in it for the American investors? Football isn't a money making business for investors, so they must have something to gain from it?

Quoted from nealeardleyscrossing

Certainly we have had to cut our cloth accordingly.
The losses have been covered and will be covered by additional funding.

Very difficult when Teams such as Wednesday, Bolton, P'Mouth, Derby, Ipswich, Peterborough and Charlton etc etc have budgets of 10 million plus are in the same division - I think it must be the strongest ever L1 I have known - I think Debt is inevitable.

We are also getting more money from the American family that invest - However, to be competitive in League one is getting impossible. Need a cup run, be lucky otherwise you are batting to avoid the bottom 4.

Did you see that Blackpool have sacked Appleton?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64317051

Quoted from nealeardleyscrossing

Certainly we have had to cut our cloth accordingly.
The losses have been covered and will be covered by additional funding.

Very difficult when Teams such as Wednesday, Bolton, P'Mouth, Derby, Ipswich, Peterborough and Charlton etc etc have budgets of 10 million plus are in the same division - I think it must be the strongest ever L1 I have known - I think Debt is inevitable.

We are also getting more money from the American family that invest - However, to be competitive in League one is getting impossible. Need a cup run, be lucky otherwise you are batting to avoid the bottom 4.

Alot of clubs in a lower bracket though  Fleetwood, FG, Morcambe, Burton, Shrewsbury, Accy Wycombe; I know alot of them are rattling round the bottom at the moment but they survived and better in previous seasons. Mind I don't know what cash is being put into these clubs to keep them going at L1 level

You've a better ground than us and with the away end at SB being expanded you'll get a bit more revenue from the likes of Wednesday. If Lincoln struggle to survive, it would be haarder for us with our effective capacity at about 8.4k and only 1200 for away fans.

League One can't be that briliant seeing as we stuffed the leaders 5-1 a few weeks back.  

Quoted from Limerick Mariner

Alot of clubs in a lower bracket though  Fleetwood, FG, Morcambe, Burton, Shrewsbury, Accy Wycombe; I know alot of them are rattling round the bottom at the moment but they survived and better in previous seasons. Mind I don't know what cash is being put into these clubs to keep them going at L1 level

You've a better ground than us and with the away end at SB being expanded you'll get a bit more revenue from the likes of Wednesday. If Lincoln struggle to survive, it would be haarder for us with our effective capacity at about 8.4k and only 1200 for away fans.

I don't know how, but we're going to have to expand our capacity if we want to progress properly, and not superficially like Fleetwood, FGR etc have.

Issued £2.7m new shares for cash in year so losses more then covered and no debt generated.
I think when our accounts are published we will find that’s approximately £2.7m more then us.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Genuine questions - What guarantees are in place for this funding to continue to bankroll the club? Because those are hefty weekly losses if someone decides to cut their losses at some point.

Also, what's in it for the American investors? Football isn't a money making business for investors, so they must have something to gain from it?

I don't think there is every a guarantee, but they seem keen and visit the City regularly etc - Landon Donavon is involved too - Regardless of the debt, Clive Nates is a fantastic chairman, so I feel and most supporters would agree we are in safe hands.
Commercial revenue is the highest it has ever been - 500k was on the pitch and drainage - Pitch is incredible now really, and I think about 700k on stadium developments.

https://www.weareimps.com/club/board-members/board-members/strategic-advisors/landon-donovan/

Quoted from Les Brechin

Did you see that Blackpool have sacked Appleton?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64317051

Not a surprise - We had to pay him off too!

Fell lucky with getting Brennan Johnson on loan and Morgan Rogers  - Got us to the play offs alone those two!

Quoted from Limerick Mariner

Alot of clubs in a lower bracket though  Fleetwood, FG, Morcambe, Burton, Shrewsbury, Accy Wycombe; I know alot of them are rattling round the bottom at the moment but they survived and better in previous seasons. Mind I don't know what cash is being put into these clubs to keep them going at L1 level

You've a better ground than us and with the away end at SB being expanded you'll get a bit more revenue from the likes of Wednesday. If Lincoln struggle to survive, it would be haarder for us with our effective capacity at about 8.4k and only 1200 for away fans.

As you say you eventually find your level and we have I think - Lower L1, as with those others you mention. Yes our ground is good now, and the pitch is immaculate. Definitely infrastructure is good - We just need a goal scorer!

Quoted from nealeardleyscrossing

I don't think there is every a guarantee, but they seem keen and visit the City regularly etc - Landon Donavon is involved too - Regardless of the debt, Clive Nates is a fantastic chairman, so I feel and most supporters would agree we are in safe hands.
Commercial revenue is the highest it has ever been - 500k was on the pitch and drainage - Pitch is incredible now really, and I think about 700k on stadium developments.

https://www.weareimps.com/club/board-members/board-members/strategic-advisors/landon-donovan/

Thank you.

Wasn't a veiled question or even trying to take a pop, just struggling to see why they would invest. My initial thought was around ground sale but I seem to think they favour redevelopment rather than anything else, including the potential for a new ground in the Western Growth Corridor?

Like Blundell Park, I can't imagine the land Sincil Bank sits on is that valuable either? Although probably worth more due to it's relative proximity to the city centre but otherwise quite hemmed in.

2.2, 0.9, 1.4 and now 2 million. Sounds like a Scunny trajectory

It is my understanding, from an avid Imps fan who sponsors one of the junior teams, is that Clive Nate’s steps aside as Chairman at the end of this season and will be replaced by the American investor who will then inject some funds into the club.

According to my informant this is a little around ego in that if it’s his money driving improvement he wants the kudos and it not to go to Clive. No idea how true any of this is but he’s normally quite well informed on anything to do with the Chimps.

Not sure this is as concerning as perhaps some are thinking. My understanding is that at present, investment is still very much forthcoming and given they’ve had players in and out and a manager to pay off, not really a shock…

Was reading the other day that the one to watch in League 1 is Pompey…again…

Quoted from Lincoln Mariner 56

It is my understanding, from an avid Imps fan who sponsors one of the junior teams, is that Clive Nate’s steps aside as Chairman at the end of this season and will be replaced by the American investor who will then inject some funds into the club.

According to my informant this is a little around ego in that if it’s his money driving improvement he wants the kudos and it not to go to Clive. No idea how true any of this is but he’s normally quite well informed on anything to do with the Chimps.

Sounds more like Scunny than I said half in jest. Lincoln have at least improved facilities to show for this loss, but they're still in the position where a backer losing interest would put them deep in the soft and smelly.

Looks to me like owners have been paying for the overspending by buying shares is that right? So if they did lose interest, whilst lincoln would be in a degree of trouble, they wouldn't owe millions and millions in debt like scunny did. I might be wrong though.

All investment is in the form of new shares to directors investors bonds issued  to fans and grants for infrastructure  No directors loans no external debt and £900k cash in the bank . Further £1.1m new shares issued since year end .  Commercial revenue  £1.6 m ( our last reported figure was £488k ). A lesson in how to run a lower league football club

Staggering that it takes over £2m in player sales and share issues to fund a lower-midtable L1 team. And that's at a club with good attendances and a well-run commercial operation. Makes you wonder how we could ever be self-sustainable in L1 like our owners envisage.

Quoted from nealeardleyscrossing

As you say you eventually find your level and we have I think - Lower L1, as with those others you mention. Yes our ground is good now, and the pitch is immaculate. Definitely infrastructure is good - We just need a goal scorer!

We have an abundance - do you want to borrow one ?

I would be very concerned if losses were covered by funding but they were still posted as loses. “Funding” does not fix the root cause of a loss it’s just putting a plaster on it isn’t it?

I also don’t get why people would invest in a loss maker unless there is a clear plan to take them into the black which judging by the fact we’ve picked up 2 of their back room staff there appears to be.

Last sentence doesn't make sense.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

I would be very concerned if losses were covered by funding but they were still posted as loses. “Funding” does not fix the root cause of a loss it’s just putting a plaster on it isn’t it?

I also don’t get why people would invest in a loss maker unless there is a clear plan to take them into the black which judging by the fact we’ve picked up 2 of their back room staff there appears to be.

Jeff Bezos is grateful for your advice but he prefers being richest person on Earth

Quoted from HerveJosse

Jeff Bezos is grateful for your advice but he prefers being richest person on Earth

F**k off moron.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

F**k off moron.

I think a red cross would have been more subtle

Quoted from diehardmariner

Thank you.

Wasn't a veiled question or even trying to take a pop, just struggling to see why they would invest. My initial thought was around ground sale but I seem to think they favour redevelopment rather than anything else, including the potential for a new ground in the Western Growth Corridor?

Like Blundell Park, I can't imagine the land Sincil Bank sits on is that valuable either? Although probably worth more due to it's relative proximity to the city centre but otherwise quite hemmed in.

Yes the new ground on the Western Growth corridor has been suggested for a while, seen drawings etc, but I think they are staying put now - The ground is better, better advertising (Electronic boards etc), more corporate things generating cash, and obviously the Stacey West expansion - though that has a lot of community emphasis on it with classrooms etc.

I agree not particularly valuable I would have thought, but 5 minute walk from the City Centre/ Waterfront would be advantageous.

As I said we have a good ground at this level, good training facilities, great pitch etc - But I personally think Mid table L1 with the odd play off flirt is where we are. We just need the team to catch up a bit, and be a bit lucky with cup draws etc.

Quoted from pen penfras

2.2, 0.9, 1.4 and now 2 million. Sounds like a Scunny trajectory

I personally don't think we could further from a Scunthorpe trajectory. Want to play in L1 you generally lose money - We will get further investment this summer from the Americans - These are in the form of shares, not loans, not with the ground as collateral etc.

You'd probably like us to go the way of Scunthorpe, but I have seen enough posts on here from you to know what sort of poster you are.

Quoted from Limerick Mariner

Alot of clubs in a lower bracket though  Fleetwood, FG, Morcambe, Burton, Shrewsbury, Accy Wycombe; I know alot of them are rattling round the bottom at the moment but they survived and better in previous seasons. Mind I don't know what cash is being put into these clubs to keep them going at L1 level

You've a better ground than us and with the away end at SB being expanded you'll get a bit more revenue from the likes of Wednesday. If Lincoln struggle to survive, it would be haarder for us with our effective capacity at about 8.4k and only 1200 for away fans.

Can only see struggling times ahead for us if we were to get promoted. We maybe have to accept that we have found our true level.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

I would be very concerned if losses were covered by funding but they were still posted as loses. “Funding” does not fix the root cause of a loss it’s just putting a plaster on it isn’t it?

I also don’t get why people would invest in a loss maker unless there is a clear plan to take them into the black which judging by the fact we’ve picked up 2 of their back room staff there appears to be.

I don't think the fact 2 of our backroom staff went to Grimsby is an issue at all - You do realise we replaced them with Kennedy's choices don't you?

I would be worried if you were pinching our best players, unfortunately that did happen, but to Rotherham, Wigan and Blackburn, and for decent cash.

Quoted from HerveJosse

Issued £2.7m new shares for cash in year so losses more then covered and no debt generated.
I think when our accounts are published we will find that’s approximately £2.7m more then us.

Do you ever stop blubbering? Relative to where we were I am delighted. Hopefully a couple in before the end of Jan and sanity will prevail.utm

Quoted from IlkleyMariner

Can only see struggling times ahead for us if we were to get promoted. We maybe have to accept that we have found our true level.

I think it is possible for you - You need a bit of luck, and obviously some cash - Our model is to get younger players and sell them for a profit. We have done that to a degree, Scully, Grant, Brahmall, Toffolo, Edun and a couple of others. However, to get to the top of L! is hard when clubs buy players for 1 million plus  - we could never do that - So Mid L1 is achievable in my opinion, but Championship would be a car crash for us I think.

Quoted from HerveJosse

Jeff Bezos is grateful for your advice but he prefers being richest person on Earth

Hmmm. Last time I looked, Lincoln City hadn't captured pretty much the whole of the football sector, becoming a monopoly after making investment bank-funded losses for decades. I suppose there is a possibility that Lincoln City will eventually become the biggest club in the country and make vast profits following decades of losses, but it doesn't seem particularly likely to me. I think your mention of Bezos isn't particularly relevant in this context.

He also isn't the richest person on Earth. A few people ahead of him at the moment, though Musk seems to be trying his hardest to lose his fortune. Bezos is the richest person on Earth who has a spaceship vanity project whose rocket looks like a knob, however. Musk's spaceship project looks as though it is going to be seriously profitable in the longer term so I can't imagine why he's making such a fool of himself with twitter.

On a football note, I'm not entirely sure what Lincoln's business plan can be, though they've obviously been doing well on the pitch over the past few years. There can't be much leeway for getting further income given the size of the ground and the potential fanbase. I suspect that 1878's plan for a sustainable club won't involve sugar daddies endlessly bunging money into the club each season to cover the losses and it surely can't be sustainable for the Imps in the longer term.

Doesn't bode particularly well for our hopes of becoming a stable League One club, either, if the figures bandied about are to be believed.

Quoted from nealeardleyscrossing

but Championship would be a car crash for us I think.

Unless you go up with an almost defeatist attitude. Pocket that extra Sky money knowing that you're probably gonna go straight back down. Remain frugal on your squad expenditure, hope you keep the nucleus of a promotion winning side intact and you might get lucky and get to pocket two lots of Sky money. There's always a complete mess of a club and then one or two of Barnsley, Rotherham or Peterborough going down anyway. I'd agree that the Championship becomes a car crash for smaller clubs (relative to the rest of the division), if they get ideas above their station, I think there's a sensible way of doing it that can potentially sustain the club for a few years off the back of going up there though.

Quoted from Son of Cod

Unless you go up with an almost defeatist attitude. Pocket that extra Sky money knowing that you're probably gonna go straight back down. Remain frugal on your squad expenditure, hope you keep the nucleus of a promotion winning side intact and you might get lucky and get to pocket two lots of Sky money. There's always a complete mess of a club and then one or two of Barnsley, Rotherham or Peterborough going down anyway. I'd agree that the Championship becomes a car crash for smaller clubs (relative to the rest of the division), if they get ideas above their station, I think there's a sensible way of doing it that can potentially sustain the club for a few years off the back of going up there though.

What I would give for 2-3 seasons in the Championship, just so I could knock off so many more grounds and beat every single person I know hands down on the most grounds visited.

Quoted from HerveJosse

I think a red cross would have been more subtle

Fair point!

Quoted from Son of Cod

Unless you go up with an almost defeatist attitude. Pocket that extra Sky money knowing that you're probably gonna go straight back down. Remain frugal on your squad expenditure, hope you keep the nucleus of a promotion winning side intact and you might get lucky and get to pocket two lots of Sky money. There's always a complete mess of a club and then one or two of Barnsley, Rotherham or Peterborough going down anyway. I'd agree that the Championship becomes a car crash for smaller clubs (relative to the rest of the division), if they get ideas above their station, I think there's a sensible way of doing it that can potentially sustain the club for a few years off the back of going up there though.

Yeah I've thought this before but about the prem, if we ever happened to get there just half of 1 years money would pay for an entirely new ground. It's about 80 million from the tv deal alone.

Given that that is highly unrealistic for us to ever get there though I wonder what 1 year in the championship is worth? Just looked and it says tv deal is 2.5 million per club, doesn't really compare does it. Might get a couple of corners filled in or something if you just banked the lot.

Just to show how mental the Championship is, Preston's accounts were posted today:

• £20m gross loss for the year
  
• £16.8m post-tax loss
  
• Accumulated losses of £69m, funded by owners
  
• £86m debt, mostly interest-free directors loans
  
• Wages £178 for every £100 of income
  

https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1616089391109402627?t=davyNSws3fMezpRCqnT84g&s=19

Quoted from MarinerDevil

Just to show how mental the Championship is, Preston's accounts were posted today:

• £20m gross loss for the year
  
• £16.8m post-tax loss
  
• Accumulated losses of £69m, funded by owners
  
• £86m debt, mostly interest-free directors loans
  
• Wages £178 for every £100 of income
  

https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1616089391109402627?t=davyNSws3fMezpRCqnT84g&s=19

And they're not even what you'd call a BIG club!

Quoted from nealeardleyscrossing

I don't think the fact 2 of our backroom staff went to Grimsby is an issue at all - You do realise we replaced them with Kennedy's choices don't you?

I would be worried if you were pinching our best players, unfortunately that did happen, but to Rotherham, Wigan and Blackburn, and for decent cash.

So selling players to cover losses then?

I wish we would spend some money on a few players WTF are we waiting about for?

Quoted from MarinerDevil

Just to show how mental the Championship is, Preston's accounts were posted today:

• £20m gross loss for the year
  
• £16.8m post-tax loss
  
• Accumulated losses of £69m, funded by owners
  
• £86m debt, mostly interest-free directors loans
  
• Wages £178 for every £100 of income
  

https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1616089391109402627?t=davyNSws3fMezpRCqnT84g&s=19

Accident waiting to happen, but not the only example I would imagine.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Accident waiting to happen, but not the only example I would imagine.

Reading's another one where you wonder how they still operate at all.

Quoted from pen penfras

2.2, 0.9, 1.4 and now 2 million. Sounds like a Scunny trajectory

Hard to think in what other industry losses of £6.5 million in four years could be viewed as anything other than cause for massive concern over viability.

Shows how badly football is governed when you have Championship clubs with such huge debts and committed wage bills. I do wonder if much of these wage costs are driven by the Premiership clubs having such large squads and paying a number of their under 21 players five figure sums each week.

Thus to attract some of the better younger players the Championship clubs have to at least match wage rates. Then you have those clubs that just gamble on reaching the end of the rainbow and getting that minimum payment of £100M from being in the Premiership.

Let’s face it most Premiership, and a significant number of Championship, players have a much higher annual turnover than most L1 & L2 clubs. Not healthy for the long term unless a fairer redistribution of money can be agreed.

Quoted from RonMariner

Hard to think in what other industry losses of £6.5 million in four years could be viewed as anything other than cause for massive concern over viability.

Rugby Union premiership - those figures would be an outstandingly good financial performance.

That house of cards has started to collapse. Leicester with 20k crowds will be left with no fecker to play against.

The big 6 Prem hoover up players distorting wages down into the Championship and lower. Preston’s gates are reasonable but those losses posted above are getting towards the rugby prem levels - it cannot be sustainable

Quoted from Limerick Mariner

Rugby Union premiership - those figures would be an outstandingly good financial performance.

That house of cards has started to collapse. Leicester with 20k crowds will be left with no fecker to play against.

The big 6 Prem hoover up players distorting wages down into the Championship and lower. Preston’s gates are reasonable but those losses posted above are getting towards the rugby prem levels - it cannot be sustainable

They can join the URC and face the financial black hole that is Leinster twice a season lol.  Even in that league, where a lot of the clubs are centrally funded, pre-covid the only club to regularly run at a profit  or break even was my beloved Scarlets.  I can sort of see why a club like Preston might be happy to run up £80m of debt because if you genuinely think you'll get into the premier league then that debt can be wiped clean (in theory) next season but it's a massive gamble to take