F.G.R.

Promoted to league 1.

Seems a long time ago we beat them in the final to get back in the EFL.

It's criminal we didn't push on once we got back in the league like a lot of teams do. Another feather in the JF cap and still p1sses me off.

Good for them, I really like FGR.

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

Good for them, I really like FGR.

balderdash to them.
Hope they get back to back to back relegations.
male masturbators

I like FGR too tbh . Well run club with a nice owner

With their gates I wonder how much per season the owner is putting in?

Who really gives a ???

Quoted from It Bites

I like FGR too tbh . Well run club with a nice owner

Yep, with you on that.

Less of a football club, more of a marketing vessel, Forest Green. Winning League Two on gates a fraction over 2,500, the fourth worst in the EFL? Something ain’t right there.

As lower league clubs go, they have a very distinct identity. A green, vegan club with an organic pitch and unique, vibrantly coloured kits made exclusively from natural materials. Well done for that. But a club’s identity should be the product of its history and fans, not its incumbent owner or his company. How many fans in the EFL would know that Forest Green’s traditional colours are in fact black and white stripes, black shorts and red socks? Not many. Nice colours, as well, those.

Don’t get me wrong, the commercial values bestowed by Dale Vince are at least positive; rather him, an entrepreneur pushing the green agenda, than an oil rich Oligarch. I just don’t like it when football clubs become play things in the objectives of wealthy individuals and or commercial organisations.

It’s only a matter of time before we end up with Rotherham Red Bulls, or a close equivalent, in the English football system. And that will be a sad day.  

If it’s FGR or Salford, I’d grudgingly go for FGR. At least smug twerp Gary Neville is discovering that money isn’t guaranteed to buy success.

Quoted from Poojah

It’s only a matter of time before we end up Rotherham Red Bulls, or a close equivalent, in the English football system. And that will be a sad day.  

Vauxhall Motors? Still owned by Vauxhall but are kicking about in the North West Counties now after spending a number of years in the Conference.

Though not all of their ethics are for me (some are) I do like people and organisations who stick to them as long as it’s not to the detrement of others.

A couple of years ago I got into the car and turned the radio in to hear an intelligent bloke talking about lower league football, he spoke a lot of sense without once talking about himself or his club. I couldn’t make out who it was until the interviewer said “many thanks to Dale Vince”.

Good luck to them. I used to think they just slung millions at it but looking at the likes of Wrexham, Stockport & Chesterfield FGR are not all that bad.

Mixed feelings, but I resent any football club without a proper history or established base or pedigree getting into the FL and prospering because of money. I consider them imposters. I accept this is a flawed view, but I’d gladly swap FGR, Morecambe, Fleetwood, Crawley, Stevenage, Barrow etc for Grimsby, Stockport, Chesterfield, York, Wrexham, Notts County etc

Quoted from It Bites

I like FGR too tbh . Well run club with a nice owner

Surely this is a wind up, Vince is an arrogant so-and-so.

Quoted from jamesgtfc

Vauxhall Motors? Still owned by Vauxhall but are kicking about in the North West Counties now after spending a number of years in the Conference.

Nothing wrong with Vauxhall Motors. They were just a group of lads working at the factory near Chester who formed a works team and happened to do rather well, leading to an unexpectedly strong legacy. See Metropolitan Police, too.

Forest Green meanwhile are over 130 years old. They had their own history which someone just came in and tore up. Successfully so, you’d have to add, but I’d argue not with great dignity.

Quoted from chaos33

Mixed feelings, but I resent any football club without a proper history or established base or pedigree getting into the FL and prospering because of money. I consider them imposters. I accept this is a flawed view, but I’d gladly swap FGR, Morecambe, Fleetwood, Crawley, Stevenage, Barrow etc for Grimsby, Stockport, Chesterfield, York, Wrexham, Notts County etc

What defines “proper history” Chaos?

Fair play to em. I took the urine when they put those three stars on their shirt but they’ve ticked two of them off now (the third might be a stretch, mind). Vince has certainly put his mind where his mouth is.

Quoted from Poojah

A green, vegan club with an organic pitch and unique, vibrantly coloured kits made exclusively from natural materials.

I just love the irony of FGRs green sustainable image, when the club itself is anything but sustainable. Take away the chairmen's money and they'll fold faster  than superman on laundry day

I’m still annoyed by Matt’s dive that gave them
a penalty last season

Quoted from Poojah

Nothing wrong with Vauxhall Motors. They were just a group of lads working at the factory near Chester who formed a works team and happened to do rather well, leading to an unexpectedly strong legacy. See Metropolitan Police, too.

Forest Green meanwhile are over 130 years old. They had their own history which someone just came in and tore up. Successfully so, you’d have to add, but I’d argue not with great dignity.

Almost mentioned Metropolitan Police in my original reply who are still on the go but they've always kicked about the Isthmian/Southern Premier set of leagues, although they did reach the FA Cup First Round in 2017. They aren't a team of policemen anymore though.

There was also Team Bath that rapidly rose through the non-league pyramid but dissolved in 2009 due to the Conference banning them from a promotion due to their financial structure which looks to have been very secretive.

I do get your point though but I think there are rules in the English game that make it difficult for Leeds to become Red Bull Leeds for example.

I think the fact traditional Conference teams like Vauxhall Motors are now kicking around the Counties league shows how much the standard of non-league football has improved in recent years.

Quoted from scrumble

I just love the irony of FGRs green sustainable image, when the club itself is anything but sustainable. Take away the chairmen's money and they'll fold faster  than superman on laundry day

There’s nothing to say Vince will be leaving any time soon…

Quoted from promotion plaice

Surely this is a wind up, Vince is an arrogant so-and-so.

Worked for ecotricity and went to the christmas party in a town shirt after we overtook them in top spot back in maybe 2013 or 2014 just before the party. He didnt have much to say about it and got a photo with him and he looked completely miserable

Quoted from HertsGTFC

What defines “proper history” Chaos?

Tend to agree and a bit unfair on Barrow who historically were a FL club and provided the second home game, and win, following Sir Matt’s return to BP ( if my memory is correct!!).

Quoted from chaos33

Mixed feelings, but I resent any football club without a proper history or established base or pedigree getting into the FL and prospering because of money. I consider them imposters. I accept this is a flawed view, but I’d gladly swap FGR, Morecambe, Fleetwood, Crawley, Stevenage, Barrow etc for Grimsby, Stockport, Chesterfield, York, Wrexham, Notts County etc

Good mate is a Barrow fan and met up with him for the recent game at Scunthorpe. Their fans are proper fans supporting a club with proper history and they’re not minted. Also not sure that Morecambe bought their way into the FL so why pick on them (unless you think they are too small a club to be in the FL an insult thrown at us when we were in the Championship)?

Quoted from HertsGTFC

What defines “proper history” Chaos?

My view is really flawed on this and is easy to challenge and pick apart. It’s just a personal preference based on little more than my own perception of football league clubs when I was growing up. I guess by ‘proper history’ I meant, having previously been long established FL clubs with proper fan bases etc, but, as I said….this is a perception, and not particularly fair. I would probably ‘red cross’ myself for it if I could.

Quoted from Poojah

Less of a football club, more of a marketing vessel, Forest Green. Winning League Two on gates a fraction over 2,500, the fourth worst in the EFL? Something ain’t right there.

As lower league clubs go, they have a very distinct identity. A green, vegan club with an organic pitch and unique, vibrantly coloured kits made exclusively from natural materials. Well done for that. But a club’s identity should be the product of its history and fans, not its incumbent owner or his company. How many fans in the EFL would know that Forest Green’s traditional colours are in fact black and white stripes, black shorts and red socks? Not many. Nice colours, as well, those.

Don’t get me wrong, the commercial values bestowed by Dale Vince are at least positive; rather him, an entrepreneur pushing the green agenda, than an oil rich Oligarch. I just don’t like it when football clubs become play things in the objectives of wealthy individuals and or commercial organisations.

It’s only a matter of time before we end up with Rotherham Red Bulls, or a close equivalent, in the English football system. And that will be a sad day.  

The thing about Dale Vince, is he forces you to have vegan and no choice. At FGR catering is all vegan. If GTFC did all meat then there would be fruit cakes glueing themselves to our floodlights.
Scrape away the gloss from Dale Vince and you find a company that takes subsidies from meat eating/gas-diesel burning public. The rest of us.
His dogma cannot exist without the latter, yet he paints himself as a saint.

Regarding FGR finances, does anyone actually know their turnover to wages ratio?

Quoted from GrimPol

The thing about Dale Vince, is he forces you to have vegan and no choice. At FGR catering is all vegan. If GTFC did all meat then there would be fruit cakes glueing themselves to our floodlights.
Scrape away the gloss from Dale Vince and you find a company that takes subsidies from meat eating/gas-diesel burning public. The rest of us.
His dogma cannot exist without the latter, yet he paints himself as a saint.

Regarding FGR finances, does anyone actually know their turnover to wages ratio?

He will stand there ramming ethical food down your throat as he forces you to eat their catering!  They are not forcing you to do anything, you have a choice to either eat there or not.

It makes me laugh when people sit there and criticise vegan food. Meat production has a huge impact on the environment and reducing your consumption is one of the best things you can do but a lot of vegan food is very flavoursome.

The finances of FGR don't seem to stack up though and a time will come when Dale Vince doesn't want to continue funding it.

I can understand folk eating food sold in the ground if they want to help the club rather than other outlets but otherwise it is an experience to be avoided. Unless you regard it as part of ' football culture', then it is easy to plan ahead. Some aspects of the info for travelling fans on the OS are useful but only as back up for unforeseen circumstances. Whether it's vegan or not misses the point, why buy any of it?

I know I am old and square but a flask of coffee and a morsel of cake will suffice. Save your cash for the travel costs which are eye watering.

Quoted from Poojah

Less of a football club, more of a marketing vessel, Forest Green. Winning League Two on gates a fraction over 2,500, the fourth worst in the EFL? Something ain’t right there.

As lower league clubs go, they have a very distinct identity. A green, vegan club with an organic pitch and unique, vibrantly coloured kits made exclusively from natural materials. Well done for that. But a club’s identity should be the product of its history and fans, not its incumbent owner or his company. How many fans in the EFL would know that Forest Green’s traditional colours are in fact black and white stripes, black shorts and red socks? Not many. Nice colours, as well, those.

Don’t get me wrong, the commercial values bestowed by Dale Vince are at least positive; rather him, an entrepreneur pushing the green agenda, than an oil rich Oligarch. I just don’t like it when football clubs become play things in the objectives of wealthy individuals and or commercial organisations.

It’s only a matter of time before we end up with Rotherham Red Bulls, or a close equivalent, in the English football system. And that will be a sad day.  

Agreed. We should be Grimsby Pelham…..

Nailsworth, the perfect location for fracking

Quoted from chaos33

My view is really flawed on this and is easy to challenge and pick apart. It’s just a personal preference based on little more than my own perception of football league clubs when I was growing up. I guess by ‘proper history’ I meant, having previously been long established FL clubs with proper fan bases etc, but, as I said….this is a perception, and not particularly fair. I would probably ‘red cross’ myself for it if I could.

Nothing wrong with a bit of tradition, it's just a shame a former local fish merchant didn't understand how important it was to all of us, if he did then maybe we would at least be where FGR now.

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

He will stand there ramming ethical food down your throat as he forces you to eat their catering!  They are not forcing you to do anything, you have a choice to either eat there or not.

Did I stand on you corns?
If you like the "eat there or not" attitude, fine, but it wouldn't work the other way round. That is my point.

However, with an average gate of 2,500 they are doing well. Must be the tofu burgers eh? I Hope PH is reading this and adds the magic solution to our player's diet.

Unfortunately having a history counts for nothing. We are where we are due to mis management over 20+ years.

Quoted from GrimPol

Did I stand on you corns?
If you like the "eat there or not" attitude, fine, but it wouldn't work the other way round. That is my point.

However, with an average gate of 2,500 they are doing well. Must be the tofu burgers eh? I Hope PH is reading this and adds the magic solution to our player's diet.

Of course, it works the other way round, if a Vegan goes to a ground with zero options, then they will have no choice but to eat elsewhere. If a meat-eater goes to vegan-only ground, they can still eat all of the stuff they just choose not to.

Quoted from jamesgtfc

It makes me laugh when people sit there and criticise vegan food. Meat production has a huge impact on the environment and reducing your consumption is one of the best things you can do but a lot of vegan food is very flavoursome.

The finances of FGR don't seem to stack up though and a time will come when Dale Vince doesn't want to continue funding it.

I would love to argue Vegan v Meat issue with anyone, but it misses the FGR point totally. Who cares that they play in paper shorts, and spray tofu on their pitch. The point is that they have an average of 2,500 and Grimsby are double that. At this level gate receipts are a large chunk of income. We are in 5th tier, they are now in the 3rd tier (now).
Is it the Peanut Burgers, the short term managers, or creative accounting that is propelling them?

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

Of course, it works the other way round, if a Vegan goes to a ground with zero options, then they will have no choice but to eat elsewhere. If a meat-eater goes to vegan-only ground, they can still eat all of the stuff they just choose not to.

So it's like a religion then?

Quoted from GrimPol

I would love to argue Vegan v Meat issue with anyone, but it misses the FGR point totally. Who cares that they play in paper shorts, and spray tofu on their pitch. The point is that they have an average of 2,500 and Grimsby are double that. At this level gate, receipts are a large chunk of income. We are in 5th tier, they are now in the 3rd tier (now).
Is it the Peanut Burgers, the short term managers, or creative accounting that is propelling them?

Unfortunately, attendance figures do not dictate where you are placed in the league structure. Yes at this level gate receipts can be a major proportion of the income but that doesn't mean it has to be. 136k from Matchday, £2.8m for Media and £2.8m for commercial.

Since 2010 they have had 6 different managers compared to our 6/7 so that argument doesn't hold up.

Creative accounting? I see nothing to suggest that this isn't the case.

Peanut burgers! Diet can have a massive impact on how players perform and more and more elite sports people are going vegan so maybe they are ahead of their time.

Maybe instead of looking for a conspiracy or trying to deflect onto peanut burgers, just accept that their business model and ethos within their club was/is better than ours has been for the last 12 years.

Quoted from GrimPol

So it's like a religion then?

No deity I'm afraid, they just choose not to eat meat products.

I don't like that their ground is on a hill in the middle of nowhere and they have about 12 supporters, but the chip butty I had there a few seasons ago when JJ Hooper of all people miraculously scored a hat-trick was one of the best i've ever eaten. There's definitely a massive irony in Dale Vince's business MO being all about sustainability, when the football club he subsidises is anything but sustainable though.

Quoted from GrimPol

I would love to argue Vegan v Meat issue with anyone, but it misses the FGR point totally. Who cares that they play in paper shorts, and spray tofu on their pitch. The point is that they have an average of 2,500 and Grimsby are double that. At this level gate receipts are a large chunk of income. We are in 5th tier, they are now in the 3rd tier (now).
Is it the Peanut Burgers, the short term managers, or creative accounting that is propelling them?

It doesn't miss the point, they are a lot more marketable on the basis that they get media coverage above and beyond what you would expect. Yes there are issues such as how financially sustainable their environmentally sustainable business model is but a lot of clubs could learn from a lot of what they do.

My kids are allergic to dairy which opened my eyes to the vegan movement. I'm not vegan but I certainly eat a lot less meat than I used to and completely avoid red meat. Catering options for those with allergies are so far behind at most football stadiums and I hope more offer similar offerings to FGR.

I went to London the other week and went to a vegan restaurant in Camden called Purezza. Restaurants like that are great because I don't have to worry about what may or may not be in the food for the kids and my sourdough pizza was probably the best pizza I've ever had.

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

Unfortunately, attendance figures do not dictate where you are placed in the league structure. Yes at this level gate receipts can be a major proportion of the income but that doesn't mean it has to be. 136k from Matchday, £2.8m for Media and £2.8m for commercial.

Since 2010 they have had 6 different managers compared to our 6/7 so that argument doesn't hold up.

Creative accounting? I see nothing to suggest that this isn't the case.

Peanut burgers! Diet can have a massive impact on how players perform and more and more elite sports people are going vegan so maybe they are ahead of their time.

Maybe instead of looking for a conspiracy or trying to deflect onto peanut burgers, just accept that their business model and ethos within their club was/is better than ours has been for the last 12 years.

Spot on

Fgr fans got a little wet when they invaded the pitch yesterday at Bristol  

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

Unfortunately, attendance figures do not dictate where you are placed in the league structure. Yes at this level gate receipts can be a major proportion of the income but that doesn't mean it has to be. 136k from Matchday, £2.8m for Media and £2.8m for commercial.

Since 2010 they have had 6 different managers compared to our 6/7 so that argument doesn't hold up.

Creative accounting? I see nothing to suggest that this isn't the case.

Peanut burgers! Diet can have a massive impact on how players perform and more and more elite sports people are going vegan so maybe they are ahead of their time.

Maybe instead of looking for a conspiracy or trying to deflect onto peanut burgers, just accept that their business model and ethos within their club was/is better than ours has been for the last 12 years.

Peanut Burgers was a joke man, and I'm never surprised that people following dogma usually lose their sense of humour along the way.

Just not following your numbers "136k from Matchday, £2.8m for Media and £2.8m for commercial" what time scale?
If you are intimating that in the last 12 years money was taken out of GTFC, however, money was put inconsistently at FGR then that's what I've been asking. But if that is a fact is the case, then FGR is subsidised.
As to the diet, some papers are saying the squad have been lapsing into heresy and sometimes (whisper) "eating meat" at night. But I won't tell anyone.

Quoted from GrimPol

Peanut Burgers was a joke man, and I'm never surprised that people following dogma usually lose their sense of humour along the way.

Just not following your numbers "136k from Matchday, £2.8m for Media and £2.8m for commercial" what time scale?
If you are intimating that in the last 12 years money was taken out of GTFC, however, money was put inconsistently at FGR then that's what I've been asking. But if that is a fact is the case, then FGR is subsidised.
As to the diet, some papers are saying the squad have been lapsing into heresy and sometimes (whisper) "eating meat" at night. But I won't tell anyone.

Those figures are the income for the last financial year. https://find-and-update.compan.....t=pdf&download=0

I am intimating that FGR have grown and progressed since Dale Vince took over whereas Town have not. (obviously, we are going in the right direction now). Despite the early years of spending big to get out the Conference they are now pulling in a profit.

Every club is subsidised, whether that be Gate receipts, sponsorship or a sugar daddy.

P.s. do not get diet advice from papers!

You can argue and moan about Vince rebranding the club and even try and formulate an argument that it’s perhaps not sustainable, there’s not much evidence yet to suggest it isn’t though.

Simple fact is, they’ve been ambitious and progressed since we beat them. We haven’t. We returned to the league and made all the same mistakes again, failed to invest and actually the club deteriorated further.

Crowd size means intercourse all. When you start arguing over attendances you end up sounding like a Newcastle fan. FGR are miles in front of us, that’s a fact.

Do I like the rebrand and the rehash of the club? Not really, and I know there’s a handful of FGR fans that still wear black and white but you can bet your bottom dollar they’ll enjoy their trips to derby and Pompey next year, whereas there’s a big chance we’ll be heading to flipping Bromley and Aldershot…I know which I’d prefer…

I have no problem with them being successful on the pitch as long as everything is correct behind the scenes. In the competitive league system it allows clubs to improve and move up the through the leagues, Wimbledon an example of this, just because they have no history etc should not stop them being promoted, it was only a year ago when there was all the fuss about the European Super League with it being a closed shop for a certain elite only.

To be honest, our seemingly contempt fit FGR seems to have originated after one of our fans was a twit and was thrown out, albeit a tad aggressively…

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

Those figures are the income for the last financial year. https://find-and-update.compan.....t=pdf&download=0

I am intimating that FGR have grown and progressed since Dale Vince took over whereas Town have not. (obviously, we are going in the right direction now). Despite the early years of spending big to get out the Conference they are now pulling in a profit.

Every club is subsidised, whether that be Gate receipts, sponsorship or a sugar daddy.

P.s. do not get diet advice from papers!

Well the lower down the football Tiers you travel the gate money is a larger proportion of your club's income., that's why covid was such a financial shock to lower leagues. In the Premier 20-25% of turnover is matchday, the rest is Media/Sponsorship/Sugar daddies.
FGR matchday income is 2.4% of total turnover. Hmmmmm
Dale Vince has a company that generates wind power (he calls them windmills), and 200k customers who buy Electricity and Gas. His blurb makes out that its ever so green, but we know better. He uses FGR as a promotion of life as he sees fit, the fans go along because playing Sheffield is better than Wealdstone.I know some on this forum wouldn't mind if Putin bought GTFC, changed the strip to the Russian Flag, and renamed BP to AK-47 as long as Messi Ronaldo played, however, some do care as shown by the kerfuffle caused by adding a banner in the badge 1878 which is when history started anyway.
DV is now selling parts of his empire, so we will see what happens next, I wish FGR well and wish we were playing them.
JF got a lot of stick whilst the majority owner of GTFC, and during this time "whatabouters" on this forum put up Scunthorpe Utd as a model when they hit great heights of League 1 whilst we had our first stint of National League.  Well, what about Scunny, now relegated, £11million in debt, and doesn't own their ground. Not a great model to follow after all.
GTFC are not in debt and owns its ground last I heard. Sometimes all is not what it seems.    
Just for interest           https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0bq3935

P.S. I don't get dietary advice from papers or forums.

FGR are only unsustainable if Vince walks away.  Listen to any of his interviews that he's given (there are plenty of them out there!), he gives absolutely no indication that he wants to walk away.

Never quite understood this faux hate of them.  He's a very clever and switched on guy who is well on board with a green agenda.  Regardless of your views on either the green agenda or veganism, he's achieving things we could only dream of at present.  The fact we had a year head start on them in 2016 and yet are now potentially facing a gulf of two divisions tells you everything.

Quoted from GrimPol

Well the lower down the football Tiers you travel the gate money is a larger proportion of your club's income., that's why covid was such a financial shock to lower leagues. In the Premier 20-25% of turnover is matchday, the rest is Media/Sponsorship/Sugar daddies.
FGR matchday income is 2.4% of total turnover. Hmmmmm
Dale Vince has a company that generates wind power (he calls them windmills), and 200k customers who buy Electricity and Gas. His blurb makes out that its ever so green, but we know better. He uses FGR as a promotion of life as he sees fit, the fans go along because playing Sheffield is better than Wealdstone.I know some on this forum wouldn't mind if Putin bought GTFC, changed the strip to the Russian Flag, and renamed BP to AK-47 as long as Messi Ronaldo played, however, some do care as shown by the kerfuffle caused by adding a banner in the badge 1878 which is when history started anyway.
DV is now selling parts of his empire, so we will see what happens next, I wish FGR well and wish we were playing them.
JF got a lot of stick whilst the majority owner of GTFC, and during this time "whatabouters" on this forum put up Scunthorpe Utd as a model when they hit great heights of League 1 whilst we had our first stint of National League.  Well, what about Scunny, now relegated, £11million in debt, and doesn't own their ground. Not a great model to follow after all.
GTFC are not in debt and owns its ground last I heard. Sometimes all is not what it seems.    
Just for interest           https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0bq3935

P.S. I don't get dietary advice from papers or forums.

So you're putting Vince in the same conversation as to a) a despot dictator who is currently accused of war crimes and genocide b) our former owner who oversaw factually our worst 20 year spell in history and tried to get in bed with a convicted conman c) the worst owner in Scunthorpe's history who has effectively stolen the ground from them and d) a convicted fraudster at Notts County.


Wow.

Quoted from diehardmariner

FGR are only unsustainable if Vince walks away.  Listen to any of his interviews that he's given (there are plenty of them out there!), he gives absolutely no indication that he wants to walk away.

Never quite understood this faux hate of them.  He's a very clever and switched on guy who is well on board with a green agenda.  Regardless of your views on either the green agenda or veganism, he's achieving things we could only dream of at present.  The fact we had a year head start on them in 2016 and yet are now potentially facing a gulf of two divisions tells you everything.

Not sure where you get that I have "faux hate of them", but I'll let it pass.

So that now you have assured us that all is well at this well run club by a clever and switched-on guy, FGR are assured an upward trajectory.

Quoted from GrimPol

Not sure where you get that I have "faux hate of them", but I'll let it pass.

So that now you have assured us that all is well at this well run club by a clever and switched-on guy, FGR are assured an upward trajectory.

Well yeh, the progress they’ve made is clear for all to see, we, on the other hand were operated by a megalomaniac with zero clue and look where we are…

Quoted from aldi_01

Well yeh, the progress they’ve made is clear for all to see, we, on the other hand were operated by a megalomaniac with zero clue and look where we are…

Then the only way is up.