Club Accounts

I think some clear direction is required regarding BP .

Either we are staying long term and it needs to be redeveloped (even if it's over a longer period of time ) .

Or we relocate .

Yes we need capital or to incur large debt , but I think it's at the point now were BP is not fit for NLN yet alone a league club of decent standing .

The main stand is an accident waiting to happen , I saw a load of kids on those vapeys at the Donny game puffing away I imagine it would only take a spark or two for it to go up .

It's just not fit for purpose and borderline unsafe - you can hardly say acçess or escape in an emergency would be sufficient as anyone trying to get away quick in the upper can testify I'm sure .

Regards the Vernam point and his three-year deal, it's probably similar to Conteh having a relatively low release clause.  It was the bargaining chip to get him to come here in the first place.  

He was under contract with a League One side and owing to his previous at League Two level wouldn't have been short of potential suitors.  Ball very much in his court when it came to signing for us, injury history or not he would have been able to push back on the offer of a one or two-year deal.

The concern, for me, with him is that if it is a hamstring tear that's followed his thigh tear earlier in the season then I wonder if we've rushed him back too soon, his rehab wasn't thorough enough etc.  Of course you can't control injuries but we saw with McAtee and his shoulder that we perhaps didn't handle it the best.

I do wonder if players overtrain to some degree these days, especially ones who tend to be prone to muscle injuries.

Id' argue that you're better off having a player appearing regularly for 70 minutes at 90% of their potential peak speed and stamina as opposed to playing a third of the season nearer to 100%.

That said, this is just guesswork. It might be that the physios know different and it is just alternative training methods which are necessary.

Quoted from Maringer

I do wonder if players overtrain to some degree these days, especially ones who tend to be prone to muscle injuries.

Id' argue that you're better off having a player appearing regularly for 70 minutes at 90% of their potential peak speed and stamina as opposed to playing a third of the season nearer to 100%.

That said, this is just guesswork. It might be that the physios know different and it is just alternative training methods which are necessary.

The alternative to that is about Thompson coming off after 70 minutes. There was much criticism on here about him not being fit.

Given that this is now a squad game and 3 subs can come on perhaps you are right about players playing to their maximum ability but for a shorter time.

Had half-an-hour to kill this morning so had a little scout around to see what I could see of other club’s recently published accounts. There’s a good number that either haven’t been published yet or lack a meaningful degree of transparency, but I did find the following in order of current league position. I naturally haven’t trawled through the detail, but I just wanted to see how things shaped up in terms of turnover and staff costs.

Crewe Alexandra (3)
Turnover: £3.96m
Staff costs: Not published

Walsall (7)
Turnover: £7.62m
Staff costs: £4.46m

Morecambe (11th) [NB: League One last season)
Turnover: £5.27m
Staff costs: £4.01m

AFC Wimbledon (13th)
Turnover: £7.29m
Staff costs: £4.11m

Forest Green (23rd) [NB: League One last season]
Turnover: £8.34m
Staff costs: £5.43m

(Staff costs when they won automatic promotion from Legate Two in 21/22 were £4.01m)

—

Couple of notes / observations. First up, if Forest Green’s turnover looks like it’s massive for their size, it’s because they had a commercial income north of £4m, presumably the bulk of which comes from Dale Vince by proxy through Ecotricity. That said, most of the above had both commercial AND hospitality incomes above or close to 7 figures, where as we scraped £500k between them.

That really is pitiful, and somewhere we absolutely have to do better. Yes, all of the above have more modern stadiums than BP, but they ain’t exactly Spurs either. We shouldn’t be getting outdone fourfold by the likes of Crewe and Morecambe, with all due respect. It’s an area we absolutely have to improve and improve markedly; despite the club’s protestations that we’re progressing. We’re not, we’ve gone backwards and it’s costing us.

I say it’s costing us, but the other main takeaway here (based on an admittedly small sample), is that we are in no way getting blown out of the water in terms of staff budget by a core of clubs in League Two. Yes, the above omits some of the league’s bigger spenders (because I don’t have the numbers), but that’s not the point. If Crewe, Walsall, Morecambe and Wimbledon can be making a serious push for promotion on the basis of their financial capabilities, then we can do a damn sight better than our current circumstances (and yes, Forest Green too).

Ultimately, it just underlines what an absolute clusterfúck we’ve made of this season, apparently on and off the pitch. Let me be clear, I remain very supportive and appreciative of our current owners - they have done some fantastic things since they took the club on, but let’s just be completely objective for a moment and take the situation for what it is. There is an argument that this season has been every bit as calamitous as the worst of the Fenty years, because of everything we had going for us. I feel uncomfortable writing that, but I sit back and reflect, and I think it’s true.  

Right now, yes, it’s all hands to the pump in the fight for survival, as it should be. But if, and I hope when, we stay up, there need to be some serious, serious questions asked.

- What the hell is going on with our commercial and hospitality efforts? What are we going to do about it?

- Has the third-party advice the club has been taking been an absolute crock of shít?

- What has gone so catastrophically wrong with recruitment, how do we fix it, and how do we prevent this ever happening again?

- How do we re-build from the ashes of the inadequate we are left with?

- Do we have the right balance of budget split between playing vs non-playing staff?

- Do we have the right manager (whoever it happens to be at that point)?

- How do we repair the reputation of the club (again) after yet another calamitous season?

I’m sure there are plenty of others, too. Ultimately, if there’s a silver lining to this wretched season, it is that it is laying bare some of the gaping cracks that perhaps the past two seasons have papered over. In that sense, it’s an opportunity get everything out on the table and address the club’s deeply entrenched problems once and for all. And we absolutely must do that, no ifs, no buts.

Right now of course, it’s all about staying up - we absolutely have to stay up. Onto Forest Green, then…

Quoted from Poojah

Had half-an-hour to kill this morning so had a little scout around to see what I could see of other club’s recently published accounts. There’s a good number that either haven’t been published yet or lack a meaningful degree of transparency, but I did find the following in order to current league position. I naturally haven’t trawled through the detail, but I just wanted to see how things shaped up in terms of turnover and staff costs.

Crewe Alexandra (3)
Turnover: £3.96m
Staff costs: Not published

Walsall (7)
Turnover: £7.62m
Staff costs: £4.46m

Morecambe (11th) [NB: League One last season)
Turnover: £5.27m
Staff costs: £4.01m

AFC Wimbledon (13th)
Turnover: £7.29m
Staff costs: £4.11m

Forest Green (23rd) [NB: League One last season]
Turnover: £8.34m
Staff costs: £5.43m

(Staff costs when they won automatic promotion from Legate Two in 21/22 were £4.01m)

—

Couple of notes / observations. First up, if Forest Green’s turnover looks like it’s massive for their size, it’s because they had a commercial income north of £4m, presumably the bulk of which comes from Dale Vince by proxy through Ecotricity. That said, most of the above had both commercial AND hospitality incomes above or close to 7 figures, where as we scraped £500k between them.

That really is pitiful, and somewhere we absolutely have to do better. Yes, all of the above have more modern stadiums than BP, but they ain’t exactly Spurs either. We shouldn’t be getting outdone fourfold by the likes of Crewe and Morecambe, with all due respect. It’s an area we absolutely have to improve and improve markedly; despite the club’s protestations that we’re progressing. We’re not, we’ve gone backwards and it’s costing us.

I say it’s costing us, but the other main takeaway here (based on an admittedly small sample), is that we are in no way getting blown out of the water in terms of staff budget by a core of clubs in League Two. Yes, the above omits some of the league’s bigger spenders (because I don’t have the numbers), but that’s not the point. If Crewe, Walsall, Morecambe and Wimbledon can be making a serious push for promotion on the basis of their financial capabilities, then we can do a damn sight better than our current circumstances (and yes, Forest Green too).

Ultimately, it just underlines what an absolute clusterfúck we’ve made of this season, apparently on and off the pitch. Let me be clear, I remain very supportive and appreciative of our current owners - they have done some fantastic things since they took the club on, but let’s just be completely objective for a moment and take the situation for what it is. There is an argument that this season has been every bit as calamitous as the worst of the Fenty years, because of everything we had going for us. I feel uncomfortable writing that, but I sit back and reflect, and I think it’s true.  

Right now, yes, it’s all hands to the pump in the fight for survival, as it should be. But if, and I hope when, we stay up, there need to be some serious, serious questions asked.

- What the hell is going on with our commercial and hospitality efforts? What are we going to do about it?

- Has the third-party advice the club has been taking been an absolute crock of shít?

- What has gone so catastrophically wrong with recruitment, how do we fix it, and how do we prevent this ever happening again?

- How do we re-build from the ashes of the inadequate we are left with?

- Do we have the right balance of budget split between playing vs non-playing staff?

- Do we have the right manager (whoever it happens to be at that point)?

- How do we repair the reputation of the club (again) after yet another calamitous season?

I’m sure there are plenty of others, too. Ultimately, if there’s a silver lining to this wretched season, it is that it is laying bare some of the gaping cracks that perhaps the past two seasons have papered over. In that sense, it’s an opportunity get everything out on the table and address the club’s deeply entrenched problems once and for all. And we absolutely must do that, no ifs, no buts.

Right now of course, it’s all about staying up - we absolutely have to stay up. Onto Forest Green, then…

As usual, you hit it spot on. Somewhere along the line JS & AP have to bite the bullet about BP. It's not sustainable as it is and unless they make BIG changes to it ( Total Revamp ) then the ground will bring in little, in any large amounts of income. So for Town to be sustainable, in the long term then we need a new ground which can be developed into streams of additional income. Yes, they want the income of selling on players but they also need fan income.

One observation on a new ground is that we are now nearly 3 years down the road of a New Training ground. Valid reasons there may be for it not happening yet, but it would appear they have had no plan B or C. I am a supporter of 1878 but at times find there logic hard to understand.

Quoted from Mappers

I think some clear direction is required regarding BP .

Either we are staying long term and it needs to be redeveloped (even if it's over a longer period of time ) .

Or we relocate .

Yes we need capital or to incur large debt , but I think it's at the point now were BP is not fit for NLN yet alone a league club of decent standing .

The main stand is an accident waiting to happen , I saw a load of kids on those vapeys at the Donny game puffing away I imagine it would only take a spark or two for it to go up .

It's just not fit for purpose and borderline unsafe - you can hardly say acçess or escape in an emergency would be sufficient as anyone trying to get away quick in the upper can testify I'm sure .

People presumably smoked cigarettes in the Main Stand for almost 100 years using matches & lighters. Smoking is banned but vapes - which have about as much fire risk as a mobile phone - are going to send the ground up in flames?  

Quoted from Poojah

Couple of notes / observations. First up, if Forest Green’s turnover looks like it’s massive for their size, it’s because they had a commercial income north of £4m, presumably the bulk of which comes from Dale Vince by proxy through Ecotricity. That said, most of the above had both commercial AND hospitality incomes above or close to 7 figures, where as we scraped £500k between them.

I suspect that some of FGR's hospitality income is from business associates of Vince. A type of quid pro quo sort of a situation, perhaps?

Quoted from Maringer

I suspect that some of FGR's hospitality income is from business associates of Vince. A type of quid pro quo sort of a situation, perhaps?

Yeah, Forest Green aren’t particularly useful for comparison as their operating model is unlike “typical” League Two clubs. I just included them as the numbers were there and they’re our closest adversaries at this moment in time.

I’m not suggesting we should be doing £4m in commercial revenue, but £1m+ should absolutely be achievable, especially with the additional TV exposure next season (IF we stay up, that is).

Quoted from DB

As usual, you hit it spot on. Somewhere along the line JS & AP have to bite the bullet about BP. It's not sustainable as it is and unless they make BIG changes to it ( Total Revamp ) then the ground will bring in little, in any large amounts of income. So for Town to be sustainable, in the long term then we need a new ground which can be developed into streams of additional income. Yes, they want the income of selling on players but they also need fan income.

One observation on a new ground is that we are now nearly 3 years down the road of a New Training ground. Valid reasons there may be for it not happening yet, but it would appear they have had no plan B or C. I am a supporter of 1878 but at times find there logic hard to understand.

I think if you strip it all back it's simply Hurst's recruitment was awful and we need a new ground or a massively revamped BP more badly than many of us thought . Otherwise they will be propping up a significantly larger amount year on year or will need big investment to effectively  stand still .