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Some thoughts in defence of David Artell…

While expecting a barrage of red crosses, I thought I’d put my head above the parapet in defence of our manager and Board.

I read a brilliant tweet today, which essentially likened David Artell to a teacher teaching an A level subject to a nursery class. Having watched the Stockport highlights, I can see the point being made. Good players don’t become poor overnight; neither does a good coach. We still need time to adjust to a new way of playing. And, it is going to take time.

I was at Accrington last week. We dominated that game against a team who had comfortably beaten us just a few weeks ago.

The Stockport game was essentially lost through schoolboy errors, or so it seemed from the highlights.

Going into the Donny home game (which I’ll be at), we’re in a better place than we were in the away fixture in October (which I was also at). We need to give our coach the time and space to get us safely through to the end of the season and the summer to then get the team up to A level standard. UTFM

He’s taking us down IMO. A mundane performance against an Accy side that were quite toothless up front is not enough to give me confidence that Artell has done anything other than take the team backwards.

Contrast Artell to the impact that Karl Robinson has had at Salford (who looked doomed when we played them). That’s the impact that we needed from a new man. I suspect the next couple of games will seal his fate (if the owners don’t act before).

Quoted from Belfast Town

Some thoughts in defence of David Artell…

While expecting a barrage of red crosses, I thought I’d put my head above the parapet in defence of our manager and Board.

I read a brilliant tweet today, which essentially likened David Artell to a teacher teaching an A level subject to a nursery class. Having watched the Stockport highlights, I can see the point being made. Good players don’t become poor overnight; neither does a good coach. We still need time to adjust to a new way of playing. And, it is going to take time.

I was at Accrington last week. We dominated that game against a team who had comfortably beaten us just a few weeks ago.

The Stockport game was essentially lost through schoolboy errors, or so it seemed from the highlights.

Going into the Donny home game (which I’ll be at), we’re in a better place than we were in the away fixture in October (which I was also at). We need to give our coach the time and space to get us safely through to the end of the season and the summer to then get the team up to A level standard. UTFM

I don’t think a lot of them are good players. The vast majority of them were signed from recently relegated sides or have spent the majority of their careers in non-league. Or both in the case of Mullarkey. Which of our players have had generally good careers in the FL? Rose, Eisa, Thompson and  Gnahoua are realistically the only ones. You could argue Rodgers has done okay but I presume he must have had someone good alongside him because we can see firsthand that he isn’t dominant in the air, isn’t good with the ball and is a bit of a coward. It’s a squad primarily composed of losers.

The point about needing time is also pretty important because if either Sutton or FGR find some form then we don’t have that time. We cannot go back to non-league, that is imperative. And if Artell won’t compromise on his “philosophy” (a slightly laughable term for a L2 manager who’s getting hammered most weeks) or can’t get a tune out of them soon then he’ll have to go to give us a chance to stay up.

Quoted from davmariner

He’s taking us down IMO. A mundane performance against an Accy side that were quite toothless up front is not enough to give me confidence that Artell has done anything other than take the team backwards.

Contrast Artell to the impact that Karl Robinson has had at Salford (who looked doomed when we played them). That’s the impact that we needed from a new man. I suspect the next couple of games will seal his fate (if the owners don’t act before).

Just change the word ‘suspect’ from your last sentence and change it with ‘hope’ because that’s obviously how you really feel

Not sure anybody wants to see us lose next two games but if we do can you or anybody else justify not asking serious questions

Quoted from fishcake63

Not sure anybody wants to see us lose next two games but if we do can you or anybody else justify not asking serious questions

I tend to disagree. You can see the regular moaners on when there’s a poor performance, when there’s a good one they go quiet. Some people love the drama and being able to complain about something or someone. They have a regular booboy . They love failure and the chance to have a moan.

Quoted from pontoonlew

Just change the word ‘suspect’ from your last sentence and change it with ‘hope’ because that’s obviously how you really feel

Similarly we know you’re a big fan of Artell, though it’s not particularly clear why. Just accept that I have a different view to yours and move on - it’s a good life lesson.

Quoted from davmariner

Similarly we know you’re a big fan of Artell, though it’s not particularly clear why. Just accept that I have a different view to yours and move on - it’s a good life lesson.

Big difference. Lew is desperate for Artell to succeed,as am I and others for obvious reasons. You nailed your colours to the mast when you wrote

Quoted from davmariner

If David Artell gets the job then we’ll go down.

and seem oddly desperate to be proven right.

Quoted from HatTrickHero

Big difference. Lew is desperate for Artell to succeed,as am I and others for obvious reasons. You nailed your colours to the mast when you wrote

and seem oddly desperate to be proven right.

I think I’ve said on another thread that I take no pleasure in the fact that Artell is doing badly, but I still hope he proves me wrong - however I’m confident that he won’t.

Ultimately my view was (and still is) that we needed a pragmatic manager that would grind out the points that we needed to stay up.

Ripping everything up mid season and trying to make these players play out from the back when they’re low on confidence and ability was madness and destined to fail IMO and our results, particularly our home thumpings are reflecting that. It’s tantamount to playing Russian roulette with our league status.

Quoted from fishcake63

Not sure anybody wants to see us lose next two games but if we do can you or anybody else justify not asking serious questions

I'd be asking serious questions if we lost the next two games but I'm not going to lose it after losing 3-1 to the top of the league side. We've had some alright performances under Artell. The only real shockers I can think of are Walsall were we dominated the first 30 minutes and then fell to pieces and Tranmere. We haven't played too many teams around us since Artell arrived. Let's see how Tuesday goes.

Quoted from davmariner

I think I’ve said on another thread that I take no pleasure in the fact that Artell is doing badly, but I still hope he proves me wrong - however I’m confident that he won’t.

Ultimately my view was (and still is) that we needed a pragmatic manager that would grind out the points that we needed to stay up.

Ripping everything up mid season and trying to make these players play out from the back when they’re low on confidence and ability was madness and destined to fail IMO and our results, particularly our home thumpings are reflecting that. It’s tantamount to playing Russian roulette with our league status.

If it pans out as you suggest surely the Board should take all the blame? They basically had Artell as their number one target, they knew exactly how he would play and that is exactly what they wanted.

He won't change his principles, he won't become pragmatic and will always play the same way. A way of playing I personally prefer - just like against Crewe and MK Dons and Salford. Saturday and the Tranmere game were of course unacceptable but so were dozens of games under the ever pragmatic Hurst.

Quoted from davmariner

I think I’ve said on another thread that I take no pleasure in the fact that Artell is doing badly, but I still hope he proves me wrong - however I’m confident that he won’t.

Ultimately my view was (and still is) that we needed a pragmatic manager that would grind out the points that we needed to stay up.

Ripping everything up mid season and trying to make these players play out from the back when they’re low on confidence and ability was madness and destined to fail IMO and our results, particularly our home thumpings are reflecting that. It’s tantamount to playing Russian roulette with our league status.

With hindsight, I think there’s possibly some truth in the idea that attempting to transition from ultra-pragmatic Hurstball to gung-ho, sexy football in one straight hit, in the middle of a difficult season, was a tad naive.

Quoted from Bawmariner

I'd be asking serious questions if we lost the next two games but I'm not going to lose it after losing 3-1 to the top of the league side. We've had some alright performances under Artell. The only real shockers I can think of are Walsall were we dominated the first 30 minutes and then fell to pieces and Tranmere. We haven't played too many teams around us since Artell arrived. Let's see how Tuesday goes.

Harrogate was poor but yesterday was a capitulation. We didn’t give ourselves a chance to get a foothold in the game.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

If it pans out as you suggest surely the Board should take all the blame? They basically had Artell as their number one target, they knew exactly how he would play and that is exactly what they wanted.

He won't change his principles, he won't become pragmatic and will always play the same way. A way of playing I personally prefer - just like against Crewe and MK Dons and Salford. Saturday and the Tranmere game were of course unacceptable but so were dozens of games under the ever pragmatic Hurst.

It would be a mistake on the part of the board, but I don’t doubt their intentions in making a decision that they felt was in the best interests of the club. I just hope that they don’t die on a hill over it and would be willing to make further changes to the management if the next two games go badly.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

If it pans out as you suggest surely the Board should take all the blame? They basically had Artell as their number one target, they knew exactly how he would play and that is exactly what they wanted.

He won't change his principles, he won't become pragmatic and will always play the same way. A way of playing I personally prefer - just like against Crewe and MK Dons and Salford. Saturday and the Tranmere game were of course unacceptable but so were dozens of games under the ever pragmatic Hurst.

If it pans out as Dav is suggesting then of course the board should take the blame as did JF for 2010 and 2021.

Quoted from Bawmariner

I'd be asking serious questions if we lost the next two games but I'm not going to lose it after losing 3-1 to the top of the league side. We've had some alright performances under Artell. The only real shockers I can think of are Walsall were we dominated the first 30 minutes and then fell to pieces and Tranmere. We haven't played too many teams around us since Artell arrived. Let's see how Tuesday goes.

You've missed Mansfield away .That was a another awful performance but for an inspired Cartwright it could have been 7/8.

Quoted from 1mickylyons

You've missed Mansfield away .That was a another awful performance but for an inspired Cartwright it could have been 7/8.

2nd half we weren't great but first half we matched them but didn't take our chances. I wouldn't really count that as a poor performance as I wouldn't count Stockport as a poor performance. Both teams have been playing the same way with similar players for years and therefore were always likely to beat us. They are simply better teams.

Quoted from Bawmariner

I'd be asking serious questions if we lost the next two games but I'm not going to lose it after losing 3-1 to the top of the league side. We've had some alright performances under Artell. The only real shockers I can think of are Walsall were we dominated the first 30 minutes and then fell to pieces and Tranmere. We haven't played too many teams around us since Artell arrived. Let's see how Tuesday goes.

'Some alright performances'?

We've won one of 6 at home under this boss.
Our last 5 home games have an aggregate score of 18-9 to the opposition.
Our last home clean sheet was 2nd September.

We lack bite, aggression, and are predictable.

Our manager has insisted twice that we won't go down, which is terrifying those of us who have watched us all season.

Every single side that's visited BP since 2nd September have scored against us, some of them have scored 5 or 6 times.

Note to jt/matt dean want to know when we will prioritise keeping a clean sheet and if not, why the hell not?!

Quoted from Bawmariner

2nd half we weren't great but first half we matched them but didn't take our chances. I wouldn't really count that as a poor performance as I wouldn't count Stockport as a poor performance. Both teams have been playing the same way with similar players for years and therefore were always likely to beat us. They are simply better teams.

Well another game I along with hundreds of other Town fans left early.

Whilst we were all angry and frustrated about Saturdays result we started very much on the front foot with an attacking style of football and everything was looking good until the unbelievable error from Cartwright that knocked the stuffing out of the players and the fans but you see those mistakes happening in the premiership as well. DA won’t change his style of play, he can’t but can the players carry out his instructions. Think we will see a much better performance at Colchester without the crowd shouting to kick it long.

Well, apart from medicine, irrigation,
health, roads, cheese and education,
baths and the Circus Maximus, what has Grimsby Fc  done for me
I'm off to Colchester  on Tuesday  to support the team .Yes you pay your money you can have your say. Yes happy clappy  .I work with the premier league supporter tourists  who leave after 30 min of the game .But I come from a Town called Grimsby not mallice .If ever was a time to get behind a team was now .It's interesting watching the home and away performances by the team and supporters  over the season .There a tension at home and I feel its transfered to the players and the way they play .Spend energy getting behind them .There is always my allotment you could digg over on Saturdays if need something to do .Because I've  put that on the long finger over past 65 years and followed my team .So come on Town

Quoted from ex-merseymariner

'Some alright performances'?

We've won one of 6 at home under this boss.
Our last 5 home games have an aggregate score of 18-9 to the opposition.
Our last home clean sheet was 2nd September.

We lack bite, aggression, and are predictable.

Our manager has insisted twice that we won't go down, which is terrifying those of us who have watched us all season.

Every single side that's visited BP since 2nd September have scored against us, some of them have scored 5 or 6 times.

Note to jt/matt dean want to know when we will prioritise keeping a clean sheet and if not, why the hell not?!

The Crewe performance was a decent performance. Away we had decent performances at MK, Oxford, Salford, and Accrington.

I didn't see Notts County but it sounds like we were great 1st half but our defensive frailties showed once more. We certainly are inconsistent even within games but people on here seem to have forgotten the good spells of play. I completely accept that we need 90 minute performances to win though.

We've signed three new defenders that everbody has appeared to have written off already. If we lose both games this week, I can completely understand the reaction. I'm pretty certain we won't.

Quoted from ex-merseymariner

'Some alright performances'?

We've won one of 6 at home under this boss.
Our last 5 home games have an aggregate score of 18-9 to the opposition.
Our last home clean sheet was 2nd September.

We lack bite, aggression, and are predictable.

Our manager has insisted twice that we won't go down, which is terrifying those of us who have watched us all season.

Every single side that's visited BP since 2nd September have scored against us, some of them have scored 5 or 6 times.

Note to jt/matt dean want to know when we will prioritise keeping a clean sheet and if not, why the hell not?!

You conveniently failed to mention that since DA took over we have won 1, drawn 3 and only lost 1 away from home.

6 out of 15 is your convincing argument???

🙄

Quoted from marinerjase

6 out of 15 is your convincing argument???

🙄

I'm not trying to convince people we've been brilliant. My point is that we're not that likely to go down. 6 wins out of the next 15 would keep us up. I'm not without my worries either I just think people are overreacting and only seeing the negatives (and there are plenty) and forgetting that at times we've looked decent.

Fair do’s.. for the record I don’t think Artell leaving/getting the push is even a consideration/thought by the powers that be..he’s only been here 11 weeks or so, signed in a 2+ year deal. I very much doubt they’d want to be paying him off. That said..IF, and it’s a big if..we’re in similar position beyond Christmas then there may be a question to ask.

This season we’ll get lucky and be fortunate to stay up, so it’s all about next season and beyond. Of course the aim/hope is things change when/if Artell gets own squad in, and they can play to the standard/style he’s insisting on. That would be the perfect scenario for all obviously.

My own personal thoughts/question marks on him are thus so far:

You take over a struggling side..devoid of confidence, forgotten how to get a result etc..you see them ship goals in left, right and centre..but there’s been no thought process to make them more compact, build from the back etc ..in some respects you’re asking them to do something they can’t - but insist on carrying on - regardless of results - as ‘it’s worked before’ ..

Players need to take responsibility but also need help. Why not try to adapt/play in a way that helps them, ditch ‘philosophy’ for now and grow confidence by working with said players to help improve them - ie give them a better chance. Because it could be argued that insistence on playing one way - when know they can’t - is throwing them under a bus, until you get own players in..

Artell was brought in with a view to coaching/improving players, giving players opportunities etc .. at present I’m questioning that (just being honest) - see above.

I don’t see a point of bringing a young lad in on loan and giving him 5 mins every week..(not the only manager we’ve had to do that) - not sure it helps the player or us.

Personally I don’t think you need ‘lots’ at this level to do ok.. yes there’s money flying around but in respect of playing - organised at back, bit of pace in side, combined with some physical attributes, and someone who can stick chances away. It’s not complicated..fans will accept defeats if they see players trying, and effort, mixed with a bit of entertainment - but also not rolling over when it doesn’t go your way. We’ve seen sides in the past that have done that last part..under Groves as an example..everyone saw what was happening. This , at present, has a similar feel for me. There’s a disconnect.. be it between manager, players, crowd.. or all. It doesn’t look or feel right. I hope im wrong and it isn’t the case, because if there is a disconnect - it doesn’t end well. Be it sooner or later.

So I guess for now as said - the perfect scenario is we scramble to safety and have yet another ‘start from scratch’ scenario, and things get better from August. I do have reservations, and do feel the manager needs to be more flexible, but hope for his and our sakes, if he’s prepared to live by the sword and die by the sword, and the board have ultimately put all their eggs in his basket - that he turns it around and come next March we’re not talking about possible relegation, or getting a battering regularly - and it’s more a case of talking about opportunities moving forward.

Quoted from Bawmariner

I'm not trying to convince people we've been brilliant. My point is that we're not that likely to go down. 6 wins out of the next 15 would keep us up. I'm not without my worries either I just think people are overreacting and only seeing the negatives (and there are plenty) and forgetting that at times we've looked decent.

Am not trying to be negative, but we conceded once in our first 4 home games, with Eastwood in goal as it happens.

Since then, with a new manager, I don't even want to say how many goals we've conceded in our last 4.

I hope we can keep a clean sheet tomorrow and Saturday, but the number of goals we are leaking is scarey, and the boss's response is that's the first time we've conceded directly from playing out from the back.   No comfort!  

6 wins, we are managing 1 win per month currently and there's 2.5 months left in the season......

Quoted from davmariner

Similarly we know you’re a big fan of Artell, though it’s not particularly clear why. Just accept that I have a different view to yours and move on - it’s a good life lesson.

I’m a firm believer that you can’t develop a style or ethos over night, if we went for a quick fix it would be papering over cracks. A longer term fix takes longer to do and often involves pain. It’s not about being a fan of Artell but more of a fan of having a long term strategy.

It’s painful at the minute, we were warned of that in the first place. None of us expected this level of pain and the next month could really derail us. However, I’ve sat through years of stagnation with no plan, I’m happy to see us take a different approach with a man who has quite literally done this before.

Happy to see people with different opinions, what I’m not happy to do is watch people hang him out to dry and seemingly will him on to fail.

Quoted from arryarryarry

If it pans out as Dav is suggesting then of course the board should take the blame as did JF for 2010 and 2021.

Alan Sugar once said that the first rule of business is to make sure you are offering your customers what they actually want.  With that in mind, the board would have been well aware  of countless posters on here, and other platforms, complaining of boring football and the lack of entertainment at BP.

I'm sure that this would have shaped their thinking as they looked for a replacement for Hurst, and let's face it, who doesn't want to come away from BP having been entertained?  Before I get lots of criticism, I am most definitely NOT blaming the fans, I am simply proposing a bit of understanding as to why the board may have made an appointment that they hoped would fix this.

As regards David Artell, I hope we haven't swapped one stubborn manager for another.  The fear is that the Cowleys will know exactly how we will play tomorrow night, because we never do anything different, and will have a well prepared plan to exploit that.  We will see.

Quoted from Captain Sensible

Alan Sugar once said that the first rule of business is to make sure you are offering your customers what they actually want.  With that in mind, the board would have been well aware  of countless posters on here, and other platforms, complaining of boring football and the lack of entertainment at BP.

I'm sure that this would have shaped their thinking as they looked for a replacement for Hurst, and let's face it, who doesn't want to come away from BP having been entertained?  Before I get lots of criticism, I am most definitely NOT blaming the fans, I am simply proposing a bit of understanding as to why the board may have made an appointment that they hoped would fix this.

As regards David Artell, I hope we haven't swapped one stubborn manager for another.  The fear is that the Cowleys will know exactly how we will play tomorrow night, because we never do anything different, and will have a well prepared plan to exploit that.  We will see.

Artell is being slagged off but we’re twerking for the Cowleys who haven’t won since their arrival at the start of Jan.

Only thing I don’t get more than anything, and what I am failing to understand, is him not starting Vernams instead of having him on the bench.  this may have been already brought up, maybe he wasnt ‘match fit’, but, the game turned slightly with his direct running at their defence and ironically we scored from one of those forays forward.

The timing to come up against clearly the best team in the division was not great, a lot of people were reasonably happy the way we played against Accrington as was i.
I had a nasty suspensions that should we lose even by one against the best team in the division that it was going to erupt on here.

What were people expecting? where you thinking we become Barcelona overnight?

Im hoping 3 points tomorrow night will balance things out again and make people realise that yes we have been awful at times but for god sakes you do not turn into world beaters overnight.  it takes time. and by time i mean at least a season.

So hopefully 3 points tomorrow and the boo boys go quiet again!

FFS get behind what we have got.

Quoted from pontoonlew

Artell is being slagged off but we’re twerking for the Cowleys who haven’t won since their arrival at the start of Jan.

Actually they've won one but I get your point. I'm a big admirer of the Cowleys but I like Artell too. However Artell needs time and, having been relegated out of the league twice in just over a decade, I can understand many supporters aren't willing to give him that time.
I believe if Artell was here for the long haul (as he was at Crewe) Grimsby Town would reach League One under him. I fear the dread of what might happen in three months might mean we don't get to see what would happen in three or four years.

Quoted from WOZOFGRIMSBY

Only thing I don’t get more than anything, and what I am failing to understand, is him not starting Vernams instead of having him on the bench.  this may have been already brought up, maybe he wasnt ‘match fit’, but, the game turned slightly with his direct running at their defence and ironically we scored from one of those forays forward.

Yep. Has to start tomorrow Vernam. Been our best player in the last few matches and he's only been on the pitch for about a third of that period of time.

Quoted from Poojah

With hindsight, I think there’s possibly some truth in the idea that attempting to transition from ultra-pragmatic Hurstball to gung-ho, sexy football in one straight hit, in the middle of a difficult season, was a tad naive.

It’s worth noting that Hurst himself seemed to be trying to transition from ultra-pragmatic Hurstball to gung-ho, sexy football – there were plenty of observations in the first part of the season about how we seemed to be trying to play a more possession-based style. Perhaps that was a request from the owners, and perhaps that played a role in our recruitment in the summer? If so, maybe the naivety of the owners came in asking Hurst to oversee the transition to sexy football when his career to date suggests that’s not really his way. If they were dead set on sexy football, in hindsight they probably should have changed manager in the summer. And I say that as a fan of Hursty.

Quoted from Spurn boy

Whilst we were all angry and frustrated about Saturdays result we started very much on the front foot with an attacking style of football and everything was looking good until the unbelievable error from Cartwright         IN THE 6TH MINUTE      that knocked the stuffing out of the players and the fans but you see those mistakes happening in the premiership as well. DA won’t change his style of play, he can’t but can the players carry out his instructions. Think we will see a much better performance at Colchester without the crowd shouting to kick it long.

Well we started well for 6minutes.

Quoted from Son of Cod

Yep. Has to start tomorrow Vernam. Been our best player in the last few matches and he's only been on the pitch for about a third of that period of time.

And he’s coming back from an injury, are we assuming he’s fully fit or maybe needs breaking back in slowly?

Quoted from oochiad

And he’s coming back from an injury, are we assuming he’s fully fit or maybe needs breaking back in slowly?

He's been back in the matchday squads for six weeks now which included a start just under a month ago so I'm assuming he's back and fully fit and has been for a while, I guess it's possible that he wasn't ready for that start before but I don't remember him looking particularly out of sorts. He's the only player of recent weeks that has displayed any kind of consistent amount of urgency in their play.