Formation

I feel the new formation we are playing this season, initially 4-2-3-1 and then changed to a usual 4-1-4-1 isn't helping us at all. As far as I can remember Hurst sides have struggled when playing 1 up front due to the lone front man being excessively isolated.

He started off with 4-4-2, when that was still a common formation, and often had a CM in one of the wide positions. I seem to remember us going 4-3-3 on occasion and it just didn't work

When he came back we had 4-4-1-1 with mcatee linking front and midfield, helping out in midfield but also supporting attacks.

Without mcatee we often had Taylor isolated up front last season. We often switched to a 3-5-2 with wing backs that Hurst admitted he didn't like but quite suited us last season. Glennon's defensive frailties were less exposed and his quality going forward helped that, we also had Emmanuel who looked good as a wing back at times. It also allowed us to play 2 up top so we didn't have an isolated striker.

This season with the 4-2-3-1 our wide men of the 3 were too busy being wide to get close to Rose. Our number 10 wasn't working and it seems the new formation hasn't resolved that conundrum. Having the spare man being in front of our back 4 instead of between striker and midfield has left us toothless and although conteh is good he isn't influencing games enough now his form has fallen away a bit.

I think Hurst teams will never make the lone front man work as he likes his wide players to defend and be wide, rather than getting in close to the striker to link with him. I can't recall him really getting that to click.

I'd much rather us go back to any of 4-4-2 (probably with a CM wide) or 4-4-1-1 or 3-5-2 to actually get us working up top.

Glennon is a good wing back with Maher behind him covering. efete is a poor full or wing back but has pace to help cover on the right of a back 3 and the stamina to get forward and be an extra spare man on occasion. We'd have to cut back on the knocking it around at the back if we had efete in there but we aren't doing anything productive with that at the moment anyway. I've always thought Clifton's best position is wing back so I'd be happy with him there on the right.

Or let's see if conteh can be more influential in a 2 man midfield with more players in forward positions for him to hit with passes. If it's that 4-4-1-1 formation rose is the equal of mcatee for effort to help out in the middle but also has some of the quality to get the striker involved. Hopefully Wilson is fit for that.

I doubt it'll happen but I think that's the most likely way to get a Hurst team to succeed, a formation that doesn't have an isolated front man.

I too would like to see wing backs, the problem with this is that we invested heavily in wide forwards in the summer with Vernam, Gnahoua and Eisa coming in alongside Khan and that formation renders them essentially unusable.

But wingbacks solves the two up top issue and gives Pyke another potential role. We're stacked at right wing back in fact, I'd be amazed to see us play that and play an out of sorts Clifton there.

It opens up another question of whether you'd drop Waterfall even if we played 3 CBs. Right now I'd probably say yes.

I've been quick to slate Efete in the past but I think you're being harsh on him to be honest, he's been consistent this season, often playing out of position too. If we were to give wingbacks another try I'd like to see:

GK: Eastwood
RWB: Mullarkey
CB: Efete
CB: Maher
CB: Rodgers
LWB: Glennon
DMC: Conteh
MC: Andrews
MC: Holohan
ST: Rose
ST: Wilson

We’ve got problems to fix, to say the least. Sack the manager? His replacement? 2 up front? New striker? But for me there’s another glaring problem.

Last couple of games I’ve started to think it’s actually our central midfield that’s our weakness rather than any other area. Until yesterday, we’ve been creating chances and scoring goals, even our strikers have been on the scoresheet in the last few weeks. But that midfield is amongst the worst we’ve had for a while, with the exception being Conteh, who you can still see has bags of quality, he just doesn’t have the same like minded players around him. It’s the other 2 positions we’ve struggled to fill, PH has tried pretty much everyone in there, Hunt, Holohan, Clifton and Andrews have all failed to nail down their place. None of them can command a game, get it by the scruff of the neck or create anything. I watched Notts v Mansfield yesterday, and people can talk about budgets etc but that game was full of good quality midfielders all battling for control of the game. Clifton and Andrews were awful yesterday, the worst 2 players on the pitch for me.

We need a change in there for me, as a priority over having 2 up front. Get control of the game and push the opponent back and the chances will come, for the striker, wingers and midfielders that can bomb on. A new addition in there is a top priority in January for me, someone to partner Conteh, maybe in a 2, with a number 10 in front, or to partner Gav as an 8 with Conteh behind. We’ve got a few issues at the minute but that midfield issue is the biggest for me.

We're at the stage where whatever formation we play will have very little effect. It's all about confidence and belief and both have disappeared due to the manager's decisions and demeanour. Dour and stubborn isn't going to fix this. A fresh start is needed.. for the players and the fans. All eras, good and bad, have to end sometime. I'm just frustrated and bored to death watching GTFC play league games, have been for a long time..

Quoted from Son of Cod

I too would like to see wing backs, the problem with this is that we invested heavily in wide forwards in the summer with Vernam, Gnahoua and Eisa coming in alongside Khan and that formation renders them essentially unusable.

But wingbacks solves the two up top issue and gives Pyke another potential role. We're stacked at right wing back in fact, I'd be amazed to see us play that and play an out of sorts Clifton there.

It opens up another question of whether you'd drop Waterfall even if we played 3 CBs. Right now I'd probably say yes.

I've been quick to slate Efete in the past but I think you're being harsh on him to be honest, he's been consistent this season, often playing out of position too. If we were to give wingbacks another try I'd like to see:

GK: Eastwood
RWB: Mullarkey
CB: Efete
CB: Maher
CB: Rodgers
LWB: Glennon
DMC: Conteh
MC: Andrews
MC: Holohan
ST: Rose
ST: Wilson

You say I'm being too harsh on efete then play him in the same position I say I would in a wingback system?

Mularkey would be myself second choice as right wing back but yeah I'd prefer Clifton who has the ability to get to the by line with a bit of pac e and put in a cross. He also has a far better engine than mularkey for keeping getting up and down defending and attacking the whole match. In that respect wing back suits his physical abilities more than some other areas. Mularkey may possibly have a better cross from distance than Clifton but hes hardly excelled at that so far. Clifton doesn't have height though and I think that would count against him with Hurst.

I totally agree with you about all the wide players such a position would leave redundant, apart from khan who has played wing back a fair bit I think (+ our striker pyke!). It would make a mockery of our summer recruitment and undermine Hurst with the board so probably not going to happen.

Quoted from toontown

You say I'm being too harsh on efete then play him in the same position I say I would in a wingback system?

Mularkey would be myself second choice as right wing back but yeah I'd prefer Clifton who has the ability to get to the by line with a bit of pac e and put in a cross. He also has a far better engine than mularkey for keeping getting up and down defending and attacking the whole match. In that respect wing back suits his physical abilities more than some other areas. Mularkey may possibly have a better cross from distance than Clifton but hes hardly excelled at that so far. Clifton doesn't have height though and I think that would count against him with Hurst.

I totally agree with you about all the wide players such a position would leave redundant, apart from khan who has played wing back a fair bit I think (+ our striker pyke!). It would make a mockery of our summer recruitment and undermine Hurst with the board so probably not going to happen.

When we played Rochdale last seaon, Mularkey played right of the three at the back and still got up and down freely so you maybe right about that with Clifton essentially hugging the touchline as a wing back

Quoted from toontown

You say I'm being too harsh on efete then play him in the same position I say I would in a wingback system?

Mularkey would be myself second choice as right wing back but yeah I'd prefer Clifton who has the ability to get to the by line with a bit of pac e and put in a cross. He also has a far better engine than mularkey for keeping getting up and down defending and attacking the whole match. In that respect wing back suits his physical abilities more than some other areas. Mularkey may possibly have a better cross from distance than Clifton but hes hardly excelled at that so far. Clifton doesn't have height though and I think that would count against him with Hurst.

I totally agree with you about all the wide players such a position would leave redundant, apart from khan who has played wing back a fair bit I think (+ our striker pyke!). It would make a mockery of our summer recruitment and undermine Hurst with the board so probably not going to happen.

Sorry should have clarified what I mean, I meant you were being harsh saying he's a poor wing/full back, as I don't really think that's fair. The reason I'd go with Mullarkey is one you've alluded to and that's that he's got a better delivery generally than Efete and is better at bringing the ball forward with a bit of purpose regularly. I'm never confident in Clifton putting a good ball in either but I do agree that he gets to the byline well. Mullarkey loves a chop inside too onto his left foot which can be dangerous if there's the right movement in the box. Pyke could be the best of the lot in that position though for all we know!

A braver and more attack minded manager would have a totally different system
Several times yesterday Clifton's passing was awful; Andrews is 20 (I think?) and another example of a player coming to us 'to learn the game' so inevitably he makes mistakes and is not a born leader; Holohan is all action but too often his passing is woeful; Green is a stopper and not in any way a ball player; Hunt is just not fancied and rarely plays

Compare with Notts C, Mansfield and even Barrow - they have any number of players very comfortable on the ball who also work hard

Hard work, graft etc gets you so far but it is ultimately quality that brings success and that means players who are progressive, positive, and can pick out a pass

Where I do feel sorry for Hurst is our 'creative' players are too often poor - 1 good game in 10 - so he goes for graft and hard work

Even Buckley was never afraid to buy/pick a target man - the team would then often play through him and the passing footy would flow; Hurst has paid a huge price for not investing in one

My mate said yesterday 'he's just lost his way' and is fast losing the players and fans

I've always been pro Hurst but my patience is waning fast - not least cos I think we have some very good players at L2 level but they are shackled by a boring and defensive, safety first system

One of Hurst issues is playing too defensive....

Four at the back yesterday and then playing Conteh in defensive midfield, who was that far back he was touching the dock tower.

Play Conteh in midfield, in 4-4-2 and let him drive forward, like he did for Gateshead.

Whatever the formation the self-belief of the players is shot, they can't string a set of meaningful passes together. It hurts to watch.
The best formation next match is 10-0-0 or even better  10-5-5 and hope the ref can't count.

They have to go back to basics.

Quoted from toontown

I feel the new formation we are playing this season, initially 4-2-3-1 and then changed to a usual 4-1-4-1 isn't helping us at all. As far as I can remember Hurst sides have struggled when playing 1 up front due to the lone front man being excessively isolated.

He started off with 4-4-2, when that was still a common formation, and often had a CM in one of the wide positions. I seem to remember us going 4-3-3 on occasion and it just didn't work

When he came back we had 4-4-1-1 with mcatee linking front and midfield, helping out in midfield but also supporting attacks.

Without mcatee we often had Taylor isolated up front last season. We often switched to a 3-5-2 with wing backs that Hurst admitted he didn't like but quite suited us last season. Glennon's defensive frailties were less exposed and his quality going forward helped that, we also had Emmanuel who looked good as a wing back at times. It also allowed us to play 2 up top so we didn't have an isolated striker.

This season with the 4-2-3-1 our wide men of the 3 were too busy being wide to get close to Rose. Our number 10 wasn't working and it seems the new formation hasn't resolved that conundrum. Having the spare man being in front of our back 4 instead of between striker and midfield has left us toothless and although conteh is good he isn't influencing games enough now his form has fallen away a bit.

I think Hurst teams will never make the lone front man work as he likes his wide players to defend and be wide, rather than getting in close to the striker to link with him. I can't recall him really getting that to click.

I'd much rather us go back to any of 4-4-2 (probably with a CM wide) or 4-4-1-1 or 3-5-2 to actually get us working up top.

Glennon is a good wing back with Maher behind him covering. efete is a poor full or wing back but has pace to help cover on the right of a back 3 and the stamina to get forward and be an extra spare man on occasion. We'd have to cut back on the knocking it around at the back if we had efete in there but we aren't doing anything productive with that at the moment anyway. I've always thought Clifton's best position is wing back so I'd be happy with him there on the right.

Or let's see if conteh can be more influential in a 2 man midfield with more players in forward positions for him to hit with passes. If it's that 4-4-1-1 formation rose is the equal of mcatee for effort to help out in the middle but also has some of the quality to get the striker involved. Hopefully Wilson is fit for that.

I doubt it'll happen but I think that's the most likely way to get a Hurst team to succeed, a formation that doesn't have an isolated front man.

This a bit like worrying about your toenails when your leg needs amputating

Nobody can understand the formation, or at least why we are persisting with it. The two wide men yesterday seemed to lose all interest in the game. I assume Arthur G got man of the match for one or two nice bits of control and passing but the less said about Eisa the better.

As concerning is the set pieces. We don't seem to have any idea what to do. Andrews took some free kicks and corners yesterday- a young lad new to the group in a team that is struggling and we put the responsibility on him and they were as basic as you could get. Nothing pre arranged or practiced,  just a bog standard cross into a crowded box with minimal intent.

Just another example of something gone badly wrong. I can't quite get my head around how it has been allowed to get this bad given the experience of the manager and coaching staff.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

As concerning is the set pieces. We don't seem to have any idea what to do. Andrews took some free kicks and corners yesterday- a young lad new to the group in a team that is struggling and we put the responsibility on him and they were as basic as you could get. Nothing pre arranged or practiced,  just a bog standard cross into a crowded box with minimal intent.

Towards the end Amos had to be told to take corners, he did not seem keen.

Quoted from Grantham_Mariner

Towards the end Amos had to be told to take corners, he did not seem keen.

Probably because he knew he'd have to run back from the highest point of the pitch to get back in position afterwards.

I think Amos is our best option for a LB currently but his fitness has always been a concern. Struggles massively in 2nd halves of games because he doesn't have the strength or stamina to last anywhere near 90 minutes at the level required.

Just to add on the topic of formation....

The actual formation isn't the problem, it's how we play it.

It's not that 4141 doesn't work. Just the same as when PH set us up to play 433 at times in the conference (first spell) and people said, oh 433 doesn't work. It's the playing philosophy of the manager which dictates how that formation is actually played on the pitch, or an inability to coach a team to play it in a way that's it's effective, that is the problem.


I think someone else has already made a similar comment but it's almost like PH can't particularly manage more talented technical players and give them a framework to showcase their ability, or give them enough creative freedom to allow them to do so. He's been excellent at creating teams full of grafters, runners, wingers who play as 2nd full backs etc, and and has built solid teams based on this. But is that his speciality or ceiling as a manager? I don't know. Evidence in his managerial career thus far would suggest so though.

Quoted from jimgtfc

We’ve got problems to fix, to say the least. Sack the manager? His replacement? 2 up front? New striker? But for me there’s another glaring problem.

Last couple of games I’ve started to think it’s actually our central midfield that’s our weakness rather than any other area. Until yesterday, we’ve been creating chances and scoring goals, even our strikers have been on the scoresheet in the last few weeks. But that midfield is amongst the worst we’ve had for a while, with the exception being Conteh, who you can still see has bags of quality, he just doesn’t have the same like minded players around him. It’s the other 2 positions we’ve struggled to fill, PH has tried pretty much everyone in there, Hunt, Holohan, Clifton and Andrews have all failed to nail down their place. None of them can command a game, get it by the scruff of the neck or create anything. I watched Notts v Mansfield yesterday, and people can talk about budgets etc but that game was full of good quality midfielders all battling for control of the game. Clifton and Andrews were awful yesterday, the worst 2 players on the pitch for me.

We need a change in there for me, as a priority over having 2 up front. Get control of the game and push the opponent back and the chances will come, for the striker, wingers and midfielders that can bomb on. A new addition in there is a top priority in January for me, someone to partner Conteh, maybe in a 2, with a number 10 in front, or to partner Gav as an 8 with Conteh behind. We’ve got a few issues at the minute but that midfield issue is the biggest for me.

I think there are other areas that are very weak and some glaring weaknesses in the squad but I would agree that centre mid is where the bulk of the problems stem from. Hurst set out this season with the plan to try and play more possession based football but forget to sign enough central midfielders capable of doing this. Conteh is a fantastic addition with bags of potential who at his best has the power, intelligence and technical ability to pick the ball up under pressure and make quick, consistently accurate passes. But even he has regressed recently, likely as a consequence of the incompetence around him.

Hunt - I don't have a strong opinion either way on Hunt. He is undoubtedly better on the ball than all of the other central midfielders still here from last season. He has also not been given enough chances. Yes he gives the ball away sometimes but Clifton gives the ball away far more but keeps getting picked. I don't see the point in paying a fee for him and giving him a three year contract to not even include him in the match day squads or to drop him every time he makes a mistake.

Holohan - bags of effort, all action and good at breaking up play. Pops up with the odd great goal as well. But his passing is inconsistent at best and he's not good in tight situations where his ball control is often found wanting. He's not a bad player at all and he's a top bloke but there's a reason he's spent most of his career in the League of Ireland or non league. He wouldn't be a starter in a team troubling the play offs.

Green - has been injured but is nowhere near good enough on the ball for a team looking to play through the thirds. Great battler and offers a lot of fighting spirit but an exceptionally limited footballer. Again, he's 26 but has only spent one season in the FL and there's a reason for this.

Clifton - I'm going to get pelters for this but I think Clifton is actually a fairly rubbish central midfielder for L2. Or at least I'll qualify that and say he's nowhere near good enough to be starting in centre mid in a team looking to play possession based, progressive football. He's fantastic when the game is in transition, has a wonderful work rate and a top class engine. He's also clearly a fantastic young man with an amazing attitude. BUT he isn't actually very good with a football at all. If you're looking to play as a hard working, counter attacking team then he can do okay but a lot of his better performances have come out wide. Personally I don't think he has the awareness to play centrally and is better out wide where the game is nearly always in front of him. His passing is poor and he gives the ball away countless times and his footwork and ball control are nowhere near good enough to play on the half turn in tight areas. Essentially, he isn't any good at the critical parts of the game for a central midfielder in a possession based team. And that isn't his fault, it's the management's fault for keeping playing him when his form has been very poor and for trying to shoe horn him in to a system and playing style that doesn't suit him at all. Having said that, he was absolutely abysmal yesterday.

Andrews and Khouri - can't blame Andrews too much. He's a young lad who's done okay at times but is still learning the game. And we've barely seen anything of Khouri for whatever reason.

I think the squad needs at least four quality additions to be good. A goalkeeper as neither of ours are any good, Eastwood is a definite downgrade on Crocombe. A competent left back. A striker who can offer a bit more physical presence and hold up play to either help Rose out or give us another option. And the crucial one is a central midfielder who can actually play through the thirds. The gap between the back five outfield players and the more forward players is huge every time we have the ball. None of our midfielders find space between the lines to link up play and we end up just lumping it aimlessly forward. It'll be the easiest game the opposing centre mids have all season at the minute.

Quoted from Tommy

Just to add on the topic of formation....

The actual formation isn't the problem, it's how we play it.

It's not that 4141 doesn't work. Just the same as when PH set us up to play 433 at times in the conference (first spell) and people said, oh 433 doesn't work. It's the playing philosophy of the manager which dictates how that formation is actually played on the pitch, or an inability to coach a team to play it in a way that's it's effective, that is the problem.


I think someone else has already made a similar comment but it's almost like PH can't particularly manage more talented technical players and give them a framework to showcase their ability, or give them enough creative freedom to allow them to do so. He's been excellent at creating teams full of grafters, runners, wingers who play as 2nd full backs etc, and and has built solid teams based on this. But is that his speciality or ceiling as a manager? I don't know. Evidence in his managerial career thus far would suggest so though.

It’s the same thing that many Ipswich fans raised. He didn’t seem to know how to manage better players and wanted fit grafters as the core of his team. Whether that’s fair or not, I don’t know.

Quoted from mariner91

I think there are other areas that are very weak and some glaring weaknesses in the squad but I would agree that centre mid is where the bulk of the problems stem from. Hurst set out this season with the plan to try and play more possession based football but forget to sign enough central midfielders capable of doing this. Conteh is a fantastic addition with bags of potential who at his best has the power, intelligence and technical ability to pick the ball up under pressure and make quick, consistently accurate passes. But even he has regressed recently, likely as a consequence of the incompetence around him.

Hunt - I don't have a strong opinion either way on Hunt. He is undoubtedly better on the ball than all of the other central midfielders still here from last season. He has also not been given enough chances. Yes he gives the ball away sometimes but Clifton gives the ball away far more but keeps getting picked. I don't see the point in paying a fee for him and giving him a three year contract to not even include him in the match day squads or to drop him every time he makes a mistake.

Holohan - bags of effort, all action and good at breaking up play. Pops up with the odd great goal as well. But his passing is inconsistent at best and he's not good in tight situations where his ball control is often found wanting. He's not a bad player at all and he's a top bloke but there's a reason he's spent most of his career in the League of Ireland or non league. He wouldn't be a starter in a team troubling the play offs.

Green - has been injured but is nowhere near good enough on the ball for a team looking to play through the thirds. Great battler and offers a lot of fighting spirit but an exceptionally limited footballer. Again, he's 26 but has only spent one season in the FL and there's a reason for this.

Clifton - I'm going to get pelters for this but I think Clifton is actually a fairly rubbish central midfielder for L2. Or at least I'll qualify that and say he's nowhere near good enough to be starting in centre mid in a team looking to play possession based, progressive football. He's fantastic when the game is in transition, has a wonderful work rate and a top class engine. He's also clearly a fantastic young man with an amazing attitude. BUT he isn't actually very good with a football at all. If you're looking to play as a hard working, counter attacking team then he can do okay but a lot of his better performances have come out wide. Personally I don't think he has the awareness to play centrally and is better out wide where the game is nearly always in front of him. His passing is poor and he gives the ball away countless times and his footwork and ball control are nowhere near good enough to play on the half turn in tight areas. Essentially, he isn't any good at the critical parts of the game for a central midfielder in a possession based team. And that isn't his fault, it's the management's fault for keeping playing him when his form has been very poor and for trying to shoe horn him in to a system and playing style that doesn't suit him at all. Having said that, he was absolutely abysmal yesterday.

Andrews and Khouri - can't blame Andrews too much. He's a young lad who's done okay at times but is still learning the game. And we've barely seen anything of Khouri for whatever reason.

I think the squad needs at least four quality additions to be good. A goalkeeper as neither of ours are any good, Eastwood is a definite downgrade on Crocombe. A competent left back. A striker who can offer a bit more physical presence and hold up play to either help Rose out or give us another option. And the crucial one is a central midfielder who can actually play through the thirds. The gap between the back five outfield players and the more forward players is huge every time we have the ball. None of our midfielders find space between the lines to link up play and we end up just lumping it aimlessly forward. It'll be the easiest game the opposing centre mids have all season at the minute.

That's quite a painful read but is actually spot on. How Hurst must wish he had the summer again.

It's difficult to fathom how the management team could make so many mistakes in building a squad, and the goalkeeper situation is bizarre. 2 keepers worse than the one who left???

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

That's quite a painful read but is actually spot on. How Hurst must wish he had the summer again.

It's difficult to fathom how the management team could make so many mistakes in building a squad, and the goalkeeper situation is bizarre. 2 keepers worse than the one who left???

It’s a great post. Holohan was released by Hartlepool for a reason, great bloke , terrific in a backs to the wall team but nowhere near good enough for a possession based team. The summary of Green is also spot on.

We can urine and moan all week long about what needs doing, what formation is needed, who is or isnt playing well etc etc but none of this gets back to the people who it is aimed at.

If we need to get our true feelings across, and guarantee that at least some of those up top see what we want to get across, messages on banners attached to bridges over the M180/A180. Something like that would probably get the local rag reporting on it, and possibly social media. Something needs to be done, short of protests at the ground

Quoted from WayneBurnettsJockstrap

We can urine and moan all week long about what needs doing, what formation is needed, who is or isnt playing well etc etc but none of this gets back to the people who it is aimed at.

If we need to get our true feelings across, and guarantee that at least some of those up top see what we want to get across, messages on banners attached to bridges over the M180/A180. Something like that would probably get the local rag reporting on it, and possibly social media. Something needs to be done, short of protests at the ground

Seriously? I want change but surely as fans of the club we continue to support Hurst on match days until the board decide otherwise. Other posters have commented about treating Hurst with the respect he deserves and I have no reason to disagree with that despite my feelings on his style of play. Ideally we go away and win at Stockport, stuff Colchester and get something from Donny. That I accept is very unlikely and all I want is to support a competitive team that make going to BP a worthwhile and enjoyable experience, which is unlikely under PH but banners over bridges, really?

If you don’t think our board and CEO don’t read the fishy you are very naive of course they do and from Hurst’s interviews I’m pretty sure he does despite him claiming others have told him what the fans are saying.

The board are successful businessmen and I trust them to make the right decision at the right time even if I think it should be today, tomorrow or next month.

I keep hearing about us having technically better players this season, but they haven't exactly made themselves particularly apparent in many of the games I've seen. Conteh looks good a lot of the time but coughed up possession with fluffed passes a few times yesterday. Andrews was poor yesterday (though I think he's generally pretty good technically). Mullarkey and Gnahoua both look after the ball pretty well, Eisa is either on it or completely out of the game and, of course, Rose is capable, even though he's feeding on scraps. Ultimately, from back to front, the passing just hasn't been nearly good enough and it is maddening just how poor simple passes out to the full-backs and wingers have been - slow, behind the man when he is running forward or simply way off target or underhit.

We're obviously in a poor run of form and everthing tends to go bad when things aren't going well, but I really was expecting better.

It occurred to me the other day how incredibly inexperienced our central midfield options are - at League level, especially.

Holohan is experienced, but hasn't played a huge amount of League football. Clifton has rarely played centrally, whether in Non-League or the League. Hunt isn't trusted by Hurst (and I'm not convinced), but has less than 50 senior starts under his belt. Thanoj injured, but only about a dozen League starts. Conteh is only in his second season of senior football - his only League experience is with us. Andrews has made a dozen senior appearances in his career. Green has one season of League football under his belt, rarely as first choice and, of course, he's injured as well.

The signing of Ainley seems to me to have been an, 'Oh, crap', moment from Hurst as he realised the lack of experience we have in the middle. Obviously, the injuries haven't helped and then Ainley got crocked as well, but it's no surprise we're getting out-thought and out-played in the centre of the park by teams with more experienced and wilier than our bunch of novices.

Quoted from mariner91

I think there are other areas that are very weak and some glaring weaknesses in the squad but I would agree that centre mid is where the bulk of the problems stem from. Hurst set out this season with the plan to try and play more possession based football but forget to sign enough central midfielders capable of doing this. Conteh is a fantastic addition with bags of potential who at his best has the power, intelligence and technical ability to pick the ball up under pressure and make quick, consistently accurate passes. But even he has regressed recently, likely as a consequence of the incompetence around him.

Hunt - I don't have a strong opinion either way on Hunt. He is undoubtedly better on the ball than all of the other central midfielders still here from last season. He has also not been given enough chances. Yes he gives the ball away sometimes but Clifton gives the ball away far more but keeps getting picked. I don't see the point in paying a fee for him and giving him a three year contract to not even include him in the match day squads or to drop him every time he makes a mistake.

Holohan - bags of effort, all action and good at breaking up play. Pops up with the odd great goal as well. But his passing is inconsistent at best and he's not good in tight situations where his ball control is often found wanting. He's not a bad player at all and he's a top bloke but there's a reason he's spent most of his career in the League of Ireland or non league. He wouldn't be a starter in a team troubling the play offs.

Green - has been injured but is nowhere near good enough on the ball for a team looking to play through the thirds. Great battler and offers a lot of fighting spirit but an exceptionally limited footballer. Again, he's 26 but has only spent one season in the FL and there's a reason for this.

Clifton - I'm going to get pelters for this but I think Clifton is actually a fairly rubbish central midfielder for L2. Or at least I'll qualify that and say he's nowhere near good enough to be starting in centre mid in a team looking to play possession based, progressive football. He's fantastic when the game is in transition, has a wonderful work rate and a top class engine. He's also clearly a fantastic young man with an amazing attitude. BUT he isn't actually very good with a football at all. If you're looking to play as a hard working, counter attacking team then he can do okay but a lot of his better performances have come out wide. Personally I don't think he has the awareness to play centrally and is better out wide where the game is nearly always in front of him. His passing is poor and he gives the ball away countless times and his footwork and ball control are nowhere near good enough to play on the half turn in tight areas. Essentially, he isn't any good at the critical parts of the game for a central midfielder in a possession based team. And that isn't his fault, it's the management's fault for keeping playing him when his form has been very poor and for trying to shoe horn him in to a system and playing style that doesn't suit him at all. Having said that, he was absolutely abysmal yesterday.

Andrews and Khouri - can't blame Andrews too much. He's a young lad who's done okay at times but is still learning the game. And we've barely seen anything of Khouri for whatever reason.

I think the squad needs at least four quality additions to be good. A goalkeeper as neither of ours are any good, Eastwood is a definite downgrade on Crocombe. A competent left back. A striker who can offer a bit more physical presence and hold up play to either help Rose out or give us another option. And the crucial one is a central midfielder who can actually play through the thirds. The gap between the back five outfield players and the more forward players is huge every time we have the ball. None of our midfielders find space between the lines to link up play and we end up just lumping it aimlessly forward. It'll be the easiest game the opposing centre mids have all season at the minute.

You’re absolutely bang on with all of that mate.

For me the big issue is absolutely the lack of creativity and nouse in CM. Honestly, Bryn Morris would WALK into our CM right now.

We really miss McAtee as a forward with bags of energy and someone who can drop into midfield and link the attack. He really was an absolute gem and SO hard to replace. On paper I guess Ainley was maybe brought in to kinda do that role or even provide a bit of creativity in CM.

Eisa is perhaps a bit of a problem for us, and hear me out as  i know that sounds a bit nuts given his start and he has an amazing attribute in his shot from distance. Those goals have almost made him undroppable as he can always pull that rabbit out of the hat. BUT, honestly, does he bring much else to the team in terms of his all round play? Does he get crosses into the box? Play good through balls? Take his man on successfully that much? Offer much protection to his full back? I’m not so sure.

For me, when Khan is back he gets the nod ahead of him. He’s much better on the left and cutting in. And I like Arthur on the right.

I don't think it does sound nuts at all.  Eisa's last five performances in a Town shirt have been anonymous to say the least. The issue is that both Khan and Gnahoua are as ineffective as each other in wide areas.  Both nice and tidy on the ball, hold onto it well, help their fullback out and generally very good team players, but their end product is limited.  Khan got the bit between his teeth for a period last season when he was scoring for fun but since then he's not threatened anywhere near enough. Injuries haven't helped but I don't think he's scored or made an assist in getting on for a year now.

With a striker that's so isolated and a midfield that generally offers absolutely nothing as an attacking threat, even more so without Holohan in there, you probably need at least one of your wingers capable of that piece of magic.  Otherwise your chances of scoring goes from slim to non-existent.

Tommy nails it.  The formation isn't the problem, it's the philosophy behind it that is killing us.  This 4-1-4-1 could easily be a very high system that leads to a five-man swarming attacking in the opposition half.  I actually think we've got the players to do it as well, but instead it just becomes two lines of four with Conteh sitting perfectly in the middle of it all.  To say it's rigid is kind.

We seemingly found a philosophy that would compliment the players in the summer and vice-versa. Yet at the first little wobble it was abandoned and Hurst reverted to type.  Raiding full-backs are sitting deeper, centre-backs are just getting rid rather than bringing it out from the back, Conteh is doing less of the drawing people in and breaking opposition lines, the midfield isn't pressing as high and as often anymore, the wingers are just doubling up as wingbacks and poor Danny Rose is just running round chasing shadows.  

Hurst's default mindset is fine, it has a role to play and we've used it quite effectively before.  But I don't think the recruitment in the summer or over the last 12 months is geared towards that anymore.  Maher, Rodgers, Mullarkey, Conteh, Hunt, Eisa, Vernam (injured, I know), even Rose. These are not grind out and battle your way to victory type players.  There's a huge contrast between the current 'style' and what these players are capable of doing.  If the plan was always to just grind out again, then we should have recruited appropriately to reflect this.  It's one or the other, it can't be both.

I think I heard Southgate say ' If you think you might not win the game, make sure you don't lose it ' which is good with several minutes left. What I don't expect is a team to come out from the start with that attitude, beit from the players or management. Games are there to be won over the 90+ mins.