Formation

Quoted from toontown

I feel the new formation we are playing this season, initially 4-2-3-1 and then changed to a usual 4-1-4-1 isn't helping us at all. As far as I can remember Hurst sides have struggled when playing 1 up front due to the lone front man being excessively isolated.

He started off with 4-4-2, when that was still a common formation, and often had a CM in one of the wide positions. I seem to remember us going 4-3-3 on occasion and it just didn't work

When he came back we had 4-4-1-1 with mcatee linking front and midfield, helping out in midfield but also supporting attacks.

Without mcatee we often had Taylor isolated up front last season. We often switched to a 3-5-2 with wing backs that Hurst admitted he didn't like but quite suited us last season. Glennon's defensive frailties were less exposed and his quality going forward helped that, we also had Emmanuel who looked good as a wing back at times. It also allowed us to play 2 up top so we didn't have an isolated striker.

This season with the 4-2-3-1 our wide men of the 3 were too busy being wide to get close to Rose. Our number 10 wasn't working and it seems the new formation hasn't resolved that conundrum. Having the spare man being in front of our back 4 instead of between striker and midfield has left us toothless and although conteh is good he isn't influencing games enough now his form has fallen away a bit.

I think Hurst teams will never make the lone front man work as he likes his wide players to defend and be wide, rather than getting in close to the striker to link with him. I can't recall him really getting that to click.

I'd much rather us go back to any of 4-4-2 (probably with a CM wide) or 4-4-1-1 or 3-5-2 to actually get us working up top.

Glennon is a good wing back with Maher behind him covering. efete is a poor full or wing back but has pace to help cover on the right of a back 3 and the stamina to get forward and be an extra spare man on occasion. We'd have to cut back on the knocking it around at the back if we had efete in there but we aren't doing anything productive with that at the moment anyway. I've always thought Clifton's best position is wing back so I'd be happy with him there on the right.

Or let's see if conteh can be more influential in a 2 man midfield with more players in forward positions for him to hit with passes. If it's that 4-4-1-1 formation rose is the equal of mcatee for effort to help out in the middle but also has some of the quality to get the striker involved. Hopefully Wilson is fit for that.

I doubt it'll happen but I think that's the most likely way to get a Hurst team to succeed, a formation that doesn't have an isolated front man.

This a bit like worrying about your toenails when your leg needs amputating

Nobody can understand the formation, or at least why we are persisting with it. The two wide men yesterday seemed to lose all interest in the game. I assume Arthur G got man of the match for one or two nice bits of control and passing but the less said about Eisa the better.

As concerning is the set pieces. We don't seem to have any idea what to do. Andrews took some free kicks and corners yesterday- a young lad new to the group in a team that is struggling and we put the responsibility on him and they were as basic as you could get. Nothing pre arranged or practiced,  just a bog standard cross into a crowded box with minimal intent.

Just another example of something gone badly wrong. I can't quite get my head around how it has been allowed to get this bad given the experience of the manager and coaching staff.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

As concerning is the set pieces. We don't seem to have any idea what to do. Andrews took some free kicks and corners yesterday- a young lad new to the group in a team that is struggling and we put the responsibility on him and they were as basic as you could get. Nothing pre arranged or practiced,  just a bog standard cross into a crowded box with minimal intent.

Towards the end Amos had to be told to take corners, he did not seem keen.

Quoted from Grantham_Mariner

Towards the end Amos had to be told to take corners, he did not seem keen.

Probably because he knew he'd have to run back from the highest point of the pitch to get back in position afterwards.

I think Amos is our best option for a LB currently but his fitness has always been a concern. Struggles massively in 2nd halves of games because he doesn't have the strength or stamina to last anywhere near 90 minutes at the level required.

Just to add on the topic of formation....

The actual formation isn't the problem, it's how we play it.

It's not that 4141 doesn't work. Just the same as when PH set us up to play 433 at times in the conference (first spell) and people said, oh 433 doesn't work. It's the playing philosophy of the manager which dictates how that formation is actually played on the pitch, or an inability to coach a team to play it in a way that's it's effective, that is the problem.


I think someone else has already made a similar comment but it's almost like PH can't particularly manage more talented technical players and give them a framework to showcase their ability, or give them enough creative freedom to allow them to do so. He's been excellent at creating teams full of grafters, runners, wingers who play as 2nd full backs etc, and and has built solid teams based on this. But is that his speciality or ceiling as a manager? I don't know. Evidence in his managerial career thus far would suggest so though.

Quoted from jimgtfc

We’ve got problems to fix, to say the least. Sack the manager? His replacement? 2 up front? New striker? But for me there’s another glaring problem.

Last couple of games I’ve started to think it’s actually our central midfield that’s our weakness rather than any other area. Until yesterday, we’ve been creating chances and scoring goals, even our strikers have been on the scoresheet in the last few weeks. But that midfield is amongst the worst we’ve had for a while, with the exception being Conteh, who you can still see has bags of quality, he just doesn’t have the same like minded players around him. It’s the other 2 positions we’ve struggled to fill, PH has tried pretty much everyone in there, Hunt, Holohan, Clifton and Andrews have all failed to nail down their place. None of them can command a game, get it by the scruff of the neck or create anything. I watched Notts v Mansfield yesterday, and people can talk about budgets etc but that game was full of good quality midfielders all battling for control of the game. Clifton and Andrews were awful yesterday, the worst 2 players on the pitch for me.

We need a change in there for me, as a priority over having 2 up front. Get control of the game and push the opponent back and the chances will come, for the striker, wingers and midfielders that can bomb on. A new addition in there is a top priority in January for me, someone to partner Conteh, maybe in a 2, with a number 10 in front, or to partner Gav as an 8 with Conteh behind. We’ve got a few issues at the minute but that midfield issue is the biggest for me.

I think there are other areas that are very weak and some glaring weaknesses in the squad but I would agree that centre mid is where the bulk of the problems stem from. Hurst set out this season with the plan to try and play more possession based football but forget to sign enough central midfielders capable of doing this. Conteh is a fantastic addition with bags of potential who at his best has the power, intelligence and technical ability to pick the ball up under pressure and make quick, consistently accurate passes. But even he has regressed recently, likely as a consequence of the incompetence around him.

Hunt - I don't have a strong opinion either way on Hunt. He is undoubtedly better on the ball than all of the other central midfielders still here from last season. He has also not been given enough chances. Yes he gives the ball away sometimes but Clifton gives the ball away far more but keeps getting picked. I don't see the point in paying a fee for him and giving him a three year contract to not even include him in the match day squads or to drop him every time he makes a mistake.

Holohan - bags of effort, all action and good at breaking up play. Pops up with the odd great goal as well. But his passing is inconsistent at best and he's not good in tight situations where his ball control is often found wanting. He's not a bad player at all and he's a top bloke but there's a reason he's spent most of his career in the League of Ireland or non league. He wouldn't be a starter in a team troubling the play offs.

Green - has been injured but is nowhere near good enough on the ball for a team looking to play through the thirds. Great battler and offers a lot of fighting spirit but an exceptionally limited footballer. Again, he's 26 but has only spent one season in the FL and there's a reason for this.

Clifton - I'm going to get pelters for this but I think Clifton is actually a fairly rubbish central midfielder for L2. Or at least I'll qualify that and say he's nowhere near good enough to be starting in centre mid in a team looking to play possession based, progressive football. He's fantastic when the game is in transition, has a wonderful work rate and a top class engine. He's also clearly a fantastic young man with an amazing attitude. BUT he isn't actually very good with a football at all. If you're looking to play as a hard working, counter attacking team then he can do okay but a lot of his better performances have come out wide. Personally I don't think he has the awareness to play centrally and is better out wide where the game is nearly always in front of him. His passing is poor and he gives the ball away countless times and his footwork and ball control are nowhere near good enough to play on the half turn in tight areas. Essentially, he isn't any good at the critical parts of the game for a central midfielder in a possession based team. And that isn't his fault, it's the management's fault for keeping playing him when his form has been very poor and for trying to shoe horn him in to a system and playing style that doesn't suit him at all. Having said that, he was absolutely abysmal yesterday.

Andrews and Khouri - can't blame Andrews too much. He's a young lad who's done okay at times but is still learning the game. And we've barely seen anything of Khouri for whatever reason.

I think the squad needs at least four quality additions to be good. A goalkeeper as neither of ours are any good, Eastwood is a definite downgrade on Crocombe. A competent left back. A striker who can offer a bit more physical presence and hold up play to either help Rose out or give us another option. And the crucial one is a central midfielder who can actually play through the thirds. The gap between the back five outfield players and the more forward players is huge every time we have the ball. None of our midfielders find space between the lines to link up play and we end up just lumping it aimlessly forward. It'll be the easiest game the opposing centre mids have all season at the minute.

Quoted from Tommy

Just to add on the topic of formation....

The actual formation isn't the problem, it's how we play it.

It's not that 4141 doesn't work. Just the same as when PH set us up to play 433 at times in the conference (first spell) and people said, oh 433 doesn't work. It's the playing philosophy of the manager which dictates how that formation is actually played on the pitch, or an inability to coach a team to play it in a way that's it's effective, that is the problem.


I think someone else has already made a similar comment but it's almost like PH can't particularly manage more talented technical players and give them a framework to showcase their ability, or give them enough creative freedom to allow them to do so. He's been excellent at creating teams full of grafters, runners, wingers who play as 2nd full backs etc, and and has built solid teams based on this. But is that his speciality or ceiling as a manager? I don't know. Evidence in his managerial career thus far would suggest so though.

It’s the same thing that many Ipswich fans raised. He didn’t seem to know how to manage better players and wanted fit grafters as the core of his team. Whether that’s fair or not, I don’t know.

Quoted from mariner91

I think there are other areas that are very weak and some glaring weaknesses in the squad but I would agree that centre mid is where the bulk of the problems stem from. Hurst set out this season with the plan to try and play more possession based football but forget to sign enough central midfielders capable of doing this. Conteh is a fantastic addition with bags of potential who at his best has the power, intelligence and technical ability to pick the ball up under pressure and make quick, consistently accurate passes. But even he has regressed recently, likely as a consequence of the incompetence around him.

Hunt - I don't have a strong opinion either way on Hunt. He is undoubtedly better on the ball than all of the other central midfielders still here from last season. He has also not been given enough chances. Yes he gives the ball away sometimes but Clifton gives the ball away far more but keeps getting picked. I don't see the point in paying a fee for him and giving him a three year contract to not even include him in the match day squads or to drop him every time he makes a mistake.

Holohan - bags of effort, all action and good at breaking up play. Pops up with the odd great goal as well. But his passing is inconsistent at best and he's not good in tight situations where his ball control is often found wanting. He's not a bad player at all and he's a top bloke but there's a reason he's spent most of his career in the League of Ireland or non league. He wouldn't be a starter in a team troubling the play offs.

Green - has been injured but is nowhere near good enough on the ball for a team looking to play through the thirds. Great battler and offers a lot of fighting spirit but an exceptionally limited footballer. Again, he's 26 but has only spent one season in the FL and there's a reason for this.

Clifton - I'm going to get pelters for this but I think Clifton is actually a fairly rubbish central midfielder for L2. Or at least I'll qualify that and say he's nowhere near good enough to be starting in centre mid in a team looking to play possession based, progressive football. He's fantastic when the game is in transition, has a wonderful work rate and a top class engine. He's also clearly a fantastic young man with an amazing attitude. BUT he isn't actually very good with a football at all. If you're looking to play as a hard working, counter attacking team then he can do okay but a lot of his better performances have come out wide. Personally I don't think he has the awareness to play centrally and is better out wide where the game is nearly always in front of him. His passing is poor and he gives the ball away countless times and his footwork and ball control are nowhere near good enough to play on the half turn in tight areas. Essentially, he isn't any good at the critical parts of the game for a central midfielder in a possession based team. And that isn't his fault, it's the management's fault for keeping playing him when his form has been very poor and for trying to shoe horn him in to a system and playing style that doesn't suit him at all. Having said that, he was absolutely abysmal yesterday.

Andrews and Khouri - can't blame Andrews too much. He's a young lad who's done okay at times but is still learning the game. And we've barely seen anything of Khouri for whatever reason.

I think the squad needs at least four quality additions to be good. A goalkeeper as neither of ours are any good, Eastwood is a definite downgrade on Crocombe. A competent left back. A striker who can offer a bit more physical presence and hold up play to either help Rose out or give us another option. And the crucial one is a central midfielder who can actually play through the thirds. The gap between the back five outfield players and the more forward players is huge every time we have the ball. None of our midfielders find space between the lines to link up play and we end up just lumping it aimlessly forward. It'll be the easiest game the opposing centre mids have all season at the minute.

That's quite a painful read but is actually spot on. How Hurst must wish he had the summer again.

It's difficult to fathom how the management team could make so many mistakes in building a squad, and the goalkeeper situation is bizarre. 2 keepers worse than the one who left???

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

That's quite a painful read but is actually spot on. How Hurst must wish he had the summer again.

It's difficult to fathom how the management team could make so many mistakes in building a squad, and the goalkeeper situation is bizarre. 2 keepers worse than the one who left???

It’s a great post. Holohan was released by Hartlepool for a reason, great bloke , terrific in a backs to the wall team but nowhere near good enough for a possession based team. The summary of Green is also spot on.

We can urine and moan all week long about what needs doing, what formation is needed, who is or isnt playing well etc etc but none of this gets back to the people who it is aimed at.

If we need to get our true feelings across, and guarantee that at least some of those up top see what we want to get across, messages on banners attached to bridges over the M180/A180. Something like that would probably get the local rag reporting on it, and possibly social media. Something needs to be done, short of protests at the ground