Next three Saturdays

All away, with the FA cup to follow could be four?

Home or away we do not fear anybody,

BUT

The Wrexham and Torquay ones will be hard.

I will be at Dartford so we have got to win there.

Quoted from The_Laughing_Mariner

All away, with the FA cup to follow could be four?

But we've got two Tuesday home games sandwiched in there.

On the 30th Sept, and 7th Oct.

Our season normally comes unstuck once the fixture chaos caused by the weather and FA Trophy kicks in. Let's hope we get knocked out in Round 1 and we have a temperate winter, then we'll be fine  

Have to say Rob, I don't think there's anything wrong with playing a much weakened team or 2nd string in the Trophy.
As you progress closer to Wembley, the temptation of course will be to put out a stronger side.
I think we need to resist it tbh.
That's not to say I won't be hoping the 2nd string can make it to Wembley and win.

Quoted from 120797

Have to say Rob, I don't think there's anything wrong with playing a much weakened team or 2nd string in the Trophy.
As you progress closer to Wembley, the temptation of course will be to put out a stronger side.
I think we need to resist it tbh.
That's not to say I won't be hoping the 2nd string can make it to Wembley and win.

I disagree because it trumps league games. If it was a midweek competition we could treat it as a sort of replacement for the reserves but it interferes with our primary purpose of  promotion by postponing league games. I know that the other teams we are due to play could cause postponements but by being in it we are certain to cause postponements after the first round or two.

Ah yes, a good point !
I completely forgot about that.
Thanks for pointing that out, I tend to agree with you then !

In the clubs defence we did play a weakened team last year but how many of us would've been drunk off after that excrement journey to Cambridge, in the semi final if he'd played a 'weakened' team.

When you get so far you just want to get to wembley, and at the end of the day, who doesn't?

Quoted from GrimRob

I disagree because it trumps league games. If it was a midweek competition we could treat it as a sort of replacement for the reserves but it interferes with our primary purpose of  promotion by postponing league games. I know that the other teams we are due to play could cause postponements but by being in it we are certain to cause postponements after the first round or two.

Completely agree with this - it seems to me the last two seasons we've had a load of momentum in the league and then from November to January we only play a league game every 3 weeks and shock horror our then it all goes to pot. I'd field a side that allowed macca a rest in goal in round one of the trophy.

No team has won the conference and the trophy in the same season.

Quoted from aldi_01

In the clubs defence we did play a weakened team last year but how many of us would've been drunk off after that excrement journey to Cambridge, in the semi final if he'd played a 'weakened' team.

When you get so far you just want to get to wembley, and at the end of the day, who doesn't?

Yes, a good point !
I was there in the Upper clapping away to the Wembley chants when we beat Dartford with a full strength side.
You've got me wondering now...  

It's all well and good me saying we need to resist the temptation to play a strong team.
But from a financial (and fan !) perspective it's easier said than done the closer you get.
It's natural for people to at least believe we can be successful on all fronts.
Maybe when you're that close you've GOT to go for it.
But where do you draw the line, QF ? Not easy is it...

Quoted from horsforthmariner

No team has won the conference and the trophy in the same season.

Not far off though !!!
York won the playoffs and the Trophy in 2011/12.
Cambridge won the playoffs and the Trophy last season !
I'm not a big believer in stats anyway + records are there to be broken...
Would be quite easy to say Town haven't gained promotion for x years, but doesn't mean I should therefore conclude I don't think we can.

Quoted from horsforthmariner

Completely agree with this - it seems to me the last two seasons we've had a load of momentum in the league and then from November to January we only play a league game every 3 weeks and shock horror our then it all goes to pot

But how much is down to the weather ? You tell me...

I see Rob has put up a question on the home page.
I THINK he's right, but I need to give it some serious thought. (I'm here to be persuaded !)
Cos it MAY make complete sense to exit the Trophy early (even with a weakened team).
But any idea of wanting Town to lose just doesn't feel right !  

One thing I'll say is, it a damn good question !
So far I've come up with...

PROS
We'd gain from fringe/youth players (repeatedly) getting a run out.
Financial benefits (how much did we earn from it ?)
Wembley (albeit sounded like a con according to some ! Admittedly I didn't go..)

CONS
Postponing league games
Wanting Town to lose. (i.e. throwing away financial benefits)
God forbid if we tail off in the league, do we start to kick ourselves for an early Trophy exit ?
Start making big changes people complaining of "tinkering" (or at least they DID before even if we won !)

Quoted from horsforthmariner

Completely agree with this - it seems to me the last two seasons we've had a load of momentum in the league and then from November to January we only play a league game every 3 weeks and shock horror our then it all goes to pot. I'd field a side that allowed macca a rest in goal in round one of the trophy.

No team has won the conference and the trophy in the same season.

Colchester did but that was back in 91/92.

Will probably make it to all of those games. We are on the up. Could have been 6 or 7 nil yesterday

[quote=120797]

Not far off though !!!
York won the playoffs and the Trophy in 2011/12.
Cambridge won the playoffs and the Trophy last season !
I'm not a big believer in stats anyway + records are there to be broken...
Would be quite easy to say Town haven't gained promotion for x years, but doesn't mean I should therefore conclude I don't think we can.


But how much is down to the weather ? You tell me...

The fact is the teams at the top have generally got out the FA trophy early. Look at the advantage Liverpool had in the league last year not playing European football last season of more rest breaks for there players, more time to plan for league games etc. we seem to have a smaller squad with more talent this year lets make sure they play as many IMPORTANT games.

More games do get called off in FA trophy because of the pants drainage the further down you go causing more fixture backlog

We don't earn really anything unless you go to wembley - you can lose cash on it if you are unlucky. Saturday attendances on average are about 500 more than Tuesday attendances so the FATrophy shifting league matches to Tuesday costs us those extra 500 on our league gate. FA trophy attendances barely cover the fixed costs of things like policing etc

at least the replays are scrapped now, aren't they?

Difficult, don`t like playing to lose, my  heart says go for broke on both fronts, head and past experience says the quicker we are out the better but that risks us ending up with nothing should the league fail

Quoted from Garth

Difficult, don`t like playing to lose, my  heart says go for broke on both fronts, head and past experience says the quicker we are out the better but that risks us ending up with nothing should the league fail

We should not play to lose,

BUT

The likes of Bastock, Walker , Humble Winfarrer and Captain Disley should play,

Along with any promising youth team members,

If they get to Wembley , which is unlikely but if they do,

They keep their place for Wembley.

Quoted from horsforthmariner

The fact is the teams at the top have generally got out the FA trophy early. Look at the advantage Liverpool had in the league last year not playing European football last season of more rest breaks for there players, more time to plan for league games etc. we seem to have a smaller squad with more talent this year lets make sure they play as many IMPORTANT games.

Guess it's reasonable to assume Liverpool's league and European games would be played by the same 11 (or say core 15).
If we play the Trophy (early rounds), it's possible to think it could be a fringe/youth setup, far far weaker ? (i.e. mainly independent of first XI)

Who have we got ?
Bastock, Bignot, Humble, Paddy/Dis?, Doig ?, Walker, Winfarrah, Bemrose + probably 1 returning from injury

That's 9, wack in a few yoofs (or maybe a lot more) it's a completely different setup ?

So really, it comes full circle back to the weather and the risk of postponing league games and fixture backlog.

But whether Trophy or not, guess we may need to put on these games (for the above personnel) anyway.
Why ?
Well what if we get a major injury crisis (stranger things have happened deep into the season) just as we're about to clinch automatic promotion ?
Last thing we want is asking players who've barely kicked a ball all season to come in last minute to deliver us to the promised land.

Point taken we only really gain unless we get to Wembley.
But without wanting to penny pinch, equally how much are these "Town XI" games gonna cost ? And can we even set them up ?

The other forgotten factor of course is the FA Cup (had a good run last year that means 3 fronts !)
Which begs the question, do we sacrifice the FACup too ?!!  
Given the financial benefits and fan interest, I'd very much doubt it, yet have a stormer, it could (albeit unlikely) still have a small effect on the league too.

I'm just wondering if the best thing might be to play the Trophy by ear & by round instead of deciding on an outright strategy.
Weighing up the risk of postponement and backlog v any need to keep fringe players fit.
And if in doubt, get the intercourse out ! (assuming Miners Welfare would take our youths apart and we can't just throw a forfeit...)
Also wondering if there are any rules on fielding understrength teams...

Good question Mariner Ronnie !

Phew...

I've got to say I would have a lot less problems with the FA trophy if it was a) played midweek where possible b) didn't take precedence over league games c) started earlier and preferably pre season d) tightly regionalised in the early rounds

The thing is even if we do play a weakened team and get knocked out we could still face a fixture backlog due to the other teams who we will be due to be playing in the league getting through to the next round in the cup. The trophy takes preference so i believe?

Quoted from horsforthmariner

I've got to say I would have a lot less problems with the FA trophy if it was a) played midweek where possible b) didn't take precedence over league games c) started earlier and preferably pre season d) tightly regionalised in the early rounds

I agree but that's life. (or the FA !)

Regards b), looking at my Mariners desktop fixture list (it's great ! ), can see:
Dec 13: FA Trophy 1st round
Jan 10: FA Trophy 2nd round

Are these Saturdays "pencilled in" so to speak, so as to NOT interfere with league games ?
I've got a feeling they are ?
I can't see any other Saturday "gaps" after the 2nd round though.

Also assume if they get postponed they could be re-scheduled to interfere with the league games (as per cmackenzie4's last point below...)

Quoted from cmackenzie4

The thing is even if we do play a weakened team and get knocked out we could still face a fixture backlog due to the other teams who we will be due to be playing in the league getting through to the next round in the cup.

Interesting !
So are you saying we should maybe play a strong(er) or full strength team ?
This is turning into the ultimate football geek/trainspotter thread.  
But I like it...  

Quoted from cmackenzie4

The trophy takes preference so i believe?

Have a feeling you're right ! (but not 100% sure)
Bloody confusing innit ?

Coming over for Wrecsam away - can't flippin' wait. My first game of the season (for the English league that is).

Play the 3 first year pros, anyone who needs a game (Thomas if he's coming back), some youth teamers and a couple of fans.

Just to throw this out there... (i personally hope the sooner we go out the better) but a complete change of personnel in a mid-week game can also have a negative effect on league form.. Just look at tottenham after the europa cup.. the last fixture they played they made ten changes to the first team for the thursday and played the first XI on the sunday and still lost... Why? I do not know..

Maybe it makes no difference but Trophy games are on a Saturday.
Except replays.
Not sure if the Trophy still has replays or not though..

Quoted from 120797

Maybe it makes no difference but Trophy games are on a Saturday.
Except replays.
Not sure if the Trophy still has replays or not though..

RTFM

FA TROPHY
RULE 11 – EXTRA TIME, REPLAYS, POSTPONED AND ABANDONED GAMES (MATCHES PLAYED PRIOR TO THE SEMI FINAL)

(a) Extra Time in First Matches
If a first match is drawn after 90 minutes, an extra 30 minutes may be played and 15 minutes shall be played in each half. The agreement for the playing of extra time shall be agreed in writing between both Clubs and confirmed in writing by the Home Club to The Association on the Match Arrangement Form which must be received by The Association within seven days of the date of the draw and notified to the Referee on the Official Team Sheet not later than 45 minutes prior to kick-off.

(b) Replays
(i) The agreement between the Clubs for the replaying of matches in the Competition shall be subject to the approval of the Council.
(ii) When a first match has resulted in a draw, it must be replayed on the following Thursday, unless the Clubs mutually agree to an earlier day.
(iii) When a replayed match is drawn after 90 minutes, an extra 30 minutes must be played and, in this event, the game shall be recommenced as provided by Law 8, and 15 minutes shall be played in each half.
(iv) If the score is still level at the end of extra time, the winners shall be determined by the taking of kicks from the penalty mark in accordance with the procedure adopted by the International Football Association Board. (see pages 20/21 of this pamphlet)

So in essence you can agree to play extra time in the first game (it doesn't if you don't agree), but you must have a replay before it goes to pens. But if we play Mickey Mouse FC in Round 1 they will always want a replay as it will quadruple their average attendance if 50 town fans go

Is there a rule that says Clubs have to play their strongest team?

Quoted from GrimRob

So in essence you can agree to play extra time in the first game (it doesn't if you don't agree), but you must have a replay before it goes to pens. But if we play Mickey Mouse FC in Round 1 they will always want a replay as it will quadruple their average attendance if 50 town fans go

Oh. Same as last season then. Great.

Shame because I thought this was happening: http://www.thenonleaguefootbal.....-set-to-be-scrapped/

Quoted from GrimRob

So in essence you can agree to play extra time in the first game (it doesn't if you don't agree), but you must have a replay before it goes to pens. But if we play Mickey Mouse FC in Round 1 they will always want a replay as it will quadruple their average attendance if 50 town fans go

I think you've been looking at an old version of the regulations Rob - this year's regulations from the FA website state that

"Clubs may mutually agree, and confirm on the Match Arrangement Form, to determine the winner of a first match drawn after extra time by taking kicks from the penalty mark..."

but it still needs the agreement of both clubs so probably only likely if we're drawn against another Conference Premier club.  

I'm confused !
So what happens if both teams don't agree to penalties mike ?
Appreciate everyone's info...

Penalties are not up for discussion in terms of teams agreeing to them. The ties have to be settled in the event of a draw. Both teams can agree to go straight to a replay, or they can agree to have extra time to try to settle it on the night and prevent a replay. However, if scores are level after the two teams have played the agreed extra time, there must be a replay. The games cannot go straight to pens without there being a replay first. If teams cannot agree that there will be extra time in the event of a full time draw then the games will go to a replay. If the replay has a deadlock period of extra time, it's pens, whether they like it or not.

Thanks !  (OMG so many rules..)

So coming back to Rob's point, Mickey Mouse FC aren't gonna want to play extra time 1st game are they ?
That said, if it's a much weakened team are we even worried about replays ?

Hmmm...
Wonder what happens if the 1st leg or the replay is abandoned - midweek or Saturday ?  
This is crippling my brain...

Quoted from chaos33

Penalties are not up for discussion in terms of teams agreeing to them [...] games cannot go straight to pens without there being a replay first.

This was the case last year, but the rules have changed.  The default position is that the first game ends after 90 minutes , with a replay (followed by extra time and penalties) if necessary, and this is what will happen if the teams don't agree otherwise.

But clubs can agree to play extra time if necessary in the first game, followed by a replay... or they can agree on extra time AND PENALTIES if necessary in the first (and only) game.

It's all there on the FA website.

Right. That clears that up then. Thanks.

Tbh, I can't imagine many ties will end up in the middle category (extra time but no penalties after the first game) - presumably the reason you would agree to extra time is that you want to settle the tie on the first occasion, so going to penalties after the first game is the logical extension of that.  

Hurst and Fenty have said the Trophy is a money earner,

Well that is only the case if we get to the final,

BUT

How much money will it cost us if we fail to get promoted because of the fixture congestion,

Dear Mr Fenty and Mr Hurst lets just put 100% of our effort to getting us promoted,

Nothing else counts, we have been to Wembley we do not need to go again this season.

Arsenal have played their Youth/Reserve side in League cup games with great success over the years. Do you think Arsen Venger will lend us them for the Trophy this year?  

Just been looking at the dates for the Trophy  ( http://www.thefa.com/fa-trophy/more/round-dates )

The first two rounds we're already scheduled to play in, que sera sera, but from round 3 onwards even if we don't make progress some of our opponents might do, so while we might not go looking for fixture congestion it could still happen if our original fixtures have to be rescheduled owing to the opposition being on duty in the Trophy themselves

First Round Proper  Saturday 13 December 2014
Second Round Proper  Saturday 10 January 2015
Third Round Proper  Saturday 24 January 2015                          NUNEATON A
Fourth Round Proper  Saturday 7 February 2015                        FOREST GREEN A
Semi Final 1  Saturday 21 February 2015                                    BARNET A
Semi Final 2  Saturday 28 February 2015                                    BRAINTREE H
Final  Sunday 29 March 2015                                                       WELLING A

Quoted from Grantham_Mariner

Arsenal have played their Youth/Reserve side in League cup games with great success over the years. Do you think Arsen Venger will lend us them for the Trophy this year?  

The League cup is the only available trophy Wenger hasnt won as Arsenal manager!

Quoted from BIGChris

The League cup is the only available trophy Wenger hasnt won as Arsenal manager!

and he isnt winning it this year

Quoted from FishOutOfWater

Just been looking at the dates for the Trophy  ( http://www.thefa.com/fa-trophy/more/round-dates )

The first two rounds we're already scheduled to play in, que sera sera, but from round 3 onwards even if we don't make progress some of our opponents might do, so while we might not go looking for fixture congestion it could still happen if our original fixtures have to be rescheduled owing to the opposition being on duty in the Trophy themselves

First Round Proper  Saturday 13 December 2014
Second Round Proper  Saturday 10 January 2015
Third Round Proper  Saturday 24 January 2015                          NUNEATON A
Fourth Round Proper  Saturday 7 February 2015                        FOREST GREEN A
Semi Final 1  Saturday 21 February 2015                                    BARNET A
Semi Final 2  Saturday 28 February 2015                                    BRAINTREE H
Final  Sunday 29 March 2015                                                       WELLING A

Having read this thread and people saying about fixture congestion even with others progressing. My view is yes we might have fixtures postponed but rather than us having to play Saturday then Tuesday. We would only play Tuesday giving us time to get over knocks etc.

For the record play the fringe players all the way through and see how far we go.

Timmo
UTM

Thanks Mike.
Yes, here's the download link for the rules:
http://www.thefa.com/~/media/files/pdf/fa-competitions-1415/the-fa-trophy-rules-2014-2015.ashx

I notice it says...
11.b.ii.
When a first match has resulted in a draw, it must be replayed on the following Thursday, unless the Clubs mutually agree to an earlier day.

Regards abandoned matches, same thing applies if it's the "first match".
If it's an abandoned replay, it's up to the FA when to play it.

Conclusion ?
We don't really need to worry about fixture congestion Saturdays until Round 3
Guess midweek replays won't clash.

What worries me a lot more is rule 15 a)
"Each team participating in a match shall represent the full available strength of each competing Club."

But whether this means you have to play your strongest team, I'd doubt it ?
I just wonder whether it means the youth team is a no no ? I'm really not sure !

I see there are also " 7 .Provisions for withdrawing from the competition" (even after playing in it)
But who knows what minefield of trouble that would cause.
It certainly means you won't get in the competition next year.
Not that we'll need to anyway !

The team at home to Coalville was:


McKeown: Bignot, Doig, Humble, Hatton; Colbeck, Thanoj, McLaughlin, Winfarrah; Southwell and Cook.

Subs: Pearson, Neilson, Hannah, Charlsworth and Walker.


So they obviously don't kick you out for not playing your 'strongest' team. (Only the players in bold ended up starting at least half our league games)

Yes thanks for that.

So basically, Winfarrah, Humble, Charlsworth and Walker were "youth" players at the time.
So no worries fielding 11 youths then (if we wanted to) ?
Have to say I'm not 100% convinced if only because it could be subjective from an FA point of view.
Maybe they thought there were enough first teamers in there to constitute a full strength side ?

To be honest that team still looks too strong to me !
I know the lesser players need game time but if say Macca had been injured (or does) it's arguably a disaster we could have avoided.