Town in Profit!

http://www.grimsby-townfc.co.uk/news/article/club-announce-profit-461286.aspx

I saw this email and thought it must be 1st April!

Shows how well run we are! (Or perhaps how lucky it was that the Bennett transfer went through).

The link for the accounts doesn't work for me. Anyone else?

Bloody hell proves how much we have cut our cloth accordingly well done Directors and all involved

Quoted from aaron rattray

Bloody hell proves how much we have cut our cloth accordingly well done Directors and all involved

Comedy gold again Aaron!

"The operating losses without net player trading were £564,000 which were made worse as a result of low revenues from cup competitions."

That said Fenty must be given credit for the Bennett money. He handled the sale, the refusal to be buy out the sell on clause etc very well.

Quoted from psgmariner

Comedy gold again Aaron!

"The operating losses without net player trading were £564,000 which were made worse as a result of low revenues from cup competitions."

That said Fenty must be given credit for the Bennett money. He handled the sale, the refusal to be buy out the sell on clause etc very well.

Still made a profit though, even if Bennett wasn't sold the loss would still have been 400k less than the previous year

Anybody got a link to the actual accounts

Quoted from aaron rattray

Still made a profit though, even if Bennett wasn't sold the loss would still have been 400k less than the previous year

You ever thought of a career as a chief executive of a major bank? Forget Barrymore, you could be the next Fred Goodwin.

[url]http://www.extra-gtfc.co.uk/accounts2/accounts/2012/index.html[/url]

Quoted from aaron rattray

Still made a profit though, even if Bennett wasn't sold the loss would still have been 400k less than the previous year

I take it maths wasn't one of your strong points at school! Irrespective if the loss was reduced THERE WAS STILL A LOSS OF £400k.

FFS

How much is currently being wasted on the new stadium that's never going to happen?

Quoted from Super Clive

How much is currently being wasted on the new stadium that's never going to happen?

£14.85

Quoted from andygtfc247

I take it maths wasn't one of your strong points at school! Irrespective if the loss was reduced THERE WAS STILL A LOSS OF £400k.

FFS

Yes i know but it shows that we have cut our cloth accordingly without making hundreds of staff redundant

Quoted from aaron rattray

Yes i know but it shows that we have cut our cloth accordingly without making hundreds of staff redundant

HUNDREDS of staff!

Who do you think we are Man Utd.  

Quoted from Les Brechin

HUNDREDS of staff!

Who do you think we are Man Utd.  

we have got over 200 staff on a match day how hard would it be to walk up to 10 office staff and say your being made redundant or 30 stewards and say your not needed, walk up to a couple of the staff in the study support centre were i went in for work experiicne and say your being made redundant, so well done town for not making many staff redundant

we are in better shape spending wise than we was last year thats for sure

Quoted from aaron rattray

we have got over 200 staff on a match day how hard would it be to walk up to 10 office staff and say your being made redundant or 30 stewards and say your not needed, walk up to a couple of the staff in the study support centre were i went in for work experiicne and say your being made redundant, so well done town for not making many staff redundant

A lot of those staff are part time match day staff only though mate, also it doesn't show we have cut our cloth accordingly, it just means we had a sell on clause for Bennett.

Am i right in thinking that we are owed another installment of the Bennett transfer this coming January? If so would this see us anticipating another profit next year?

I think maybe the trust should ask for the shares back  

Anybody else notice the share issue between the directors. There's one who dipped his hand in up to his elbow, a second up to his wrist and the third up to his fingernail. £500 to be a director, bargin. Bet you any money if I took that in today I wouldn't be allowed on.

Quoted from Phillycheese

Anybody else notice the share issue between the directors. There's one who dipped his hand in up to his elbow, a second up to his wrist and the third up to his fingernail. £500 to be a director, bargin. Bet you any money if I took that in today I wouldn't be allowed on.

Did the articles of association not change some time ago? I'm sure the fella you are referring to offers a lot in terms of experience.

Aaron is getting stick on here but he was right with one comment. Even without the Bennett sale we would have reduced our loss in profits by roughly 400k on the previous year:


(Loss)/Profit On Ordinary Activities Before Taxation

2012 - 142,404


2011 - (936,177)




If without the Bennett sale we would have lost £564,000 then that equates to a decrease in loss of 376,177

Such a shame we never do any good in the FA cup since relegation. Even getting to R2 would generate £80 - 100k depending on fixtures and prize money. Would make a difference. Of course a playoff push would make a difference.

The thing is if we can discover a Bennett every couple of years we'll never have to worry .thats why we need a decent youth set up

Quoted from biggles9999

Aaron is getting stick on here but he was right with one comment. Even without the Bennett sale we would have reduced our loss in profits by roughly 400k on the previous year:


(Loss)/Profit On Ordinary Activities Before Taxation

2012 - 142,404


2011 - (936,177)




If without the Bennett sale we would have lost £564,000 then that equates to a decrease in loss of 376,177

Correct and a good point.

I still think we could do away with a few stewards! On a match day there are always quite a few just stood milling about!

Quoted from aaron rattray

we have got over 200 staff on a match day how hard would it be to walk up to 10 office staff and say your being made redundant or 30 stewards and say your not needed, walk up to a couple of the staff in the study support centre were i went in for work experiicne and say your being made redundant, so well done town for not making many staff redundant

I could've sworn that about 6 months ago you were saying we should make everyone redundant at town!

Quoted from biggles9999

Aaron is getting stick on here but he was right with one comment. Even without the Bennett sale we would have reduced our loss in profits by roughly 400k on the previous year:


(Loss)/Profit On Ordinary Activities Before Taxation

2012 - 142,404


2011 - (936,177)




If without the Bennett sale we would have lost £564,000 then that equates to a decrease in loss of 376,177

Err, how do we have a loss in profits?! Makes no sense; do you mean a reduction in our losses? Even so, what a way to run a business!    

Quoted from DubaiMariner

I could've sworn that about 6 months ago you were saying we should make everyone redundant at town!

Yes i did but that was the easy option wasnt it, and i didn't say everybody

At the end of the day i am with Aaron on this one, the fact we have reduced overheads by the amount we have has allowed the Bennett money (football fortune some may say) to take us into profit.
Shaving that much money off your operating losses should be seen as a positive. I think i am correct in thinking that there was a reduction in playing budget for this season also so hopefully that trend will continue for this seasons figures.
If we can reduce that operating loss figure by half again this season or even better then the overall position of the club starts to look more attractive to investors....especially as i believe JF is not  to subsidise beyond this season or was it  next (?).

also says about profit was made on JPT, how about a good trophy run this season?

Quoted from psgmariner

Comedy gold again Aaron!

"The operating losses without net player trading were £564,000 which were made worse as a result of low revenues from cup competitions."

That said [b]Fenty must be given credit for the Bennett money.[/b] He handled the sale, the refusal to be buy out the sell on clause etc very well.

Slightly off topic, saw Ryan come on as sub at Villa Park last sat. .......not very good, looks like the boy Fenty done good!!!  

Quoted from grimps

The thing is if we can discover a Bennett every couple of years we'll never have to worry .thats why we need a decent youth set up

This:

Quoted from grimps

The thing is if we can discover a Bennett every couple of years we'll never have to worry .thats why we need a decent youth set up

So making a loss one season of 900k and then the next season making a profit of 150k due to discovering a "bennett" means we never have to worry??? We would have to find more than one Bennett every couple of seasons to never have to worry.

Anyway I agree with Aaron for a change, the accounts do look more positive this season, even if you take the player sales and profit out of it. We have gone from a nearly 1 million loss to only losing around half that, despite paying off several players contracts in the last financial year. Next seasons should look better again with a smaller squad, only Makofo paid off so far ( and he won't have been on much) and hopefully improved gate receipts. Ok we may not make a profit next year but it should be under half a mill loss.

As for it still being a loss and therefore being bad, what do people expect? Us to go from losing a million to making a profit despite having a competitve budget? We are nearly always going to make a loss in this division unless we either sell players for substantial sums or have a very low playing budget which will almost mean no hope of promotion.

So reducing the loss each season is a positive even if it is still a loss.

Can't see the accounts but what has been published is just the profit and loss?
You would need to seen the full balance sheet to get a full picture of the accounts which not sure if showing.

Oh and Aaron making a profit is good but not every business always wishes to make a profit.

Quoted from NorthLeedsMariner

Such a shame we never do any good in the FA cup since relegation. Even getting to R2 would generate £80 - 100k depending on fixtures and prize money.

But we DID reach the 2nd round last year !  
We even beat League opposition on the way(including a slice of their home gate receipts pre-replay) and seem to remember Scott said it was one of his best (if not the best) achievements ?

"The operating losses without net player trading were £564,000 which were made worse as a result of low revenues from cup competitions."

Yes we were gutted losing to Salisbury but sorry, if people are seriously expecting us to reach the 3rd round proper every year (in which case why are we resting anyone ?) or even go all the way in the Trophy then there's a problem of budgeting and expectations IMO.

Obviously there are potentially turbulent times ahead (depending on what happens) but just because there's a big juicy carrot of dosh on offer (albeit not a majority chunk of the losses pie) it shouldn't mean we ever act all disappointed if we don't get it.

Sorry to bring up the uncomfortable facts here but being approx £500K worse off from being in the BSP might have something to do with it.
If or when we get promoted, would like to think we won't necessarily assume we've got to spend more and more money on players wages.
Would actually like us to consider a "consolidation" year where costs are cut even further to give younger players(who knows it might give us more chance of finding more Bennett's) more opportunities with the main focus being to avoid the drop (at least for the very first year).
Let's just hope we have that choice to make...

I am getting a bit confused here,

Everybody seems to agree with arron.

80s with your points raised above moving to league 2 would not make a massive difference unless the away support increases. Which was always how town survived in past with the likes of the Yorkshire clubs bringing good local away crowds.

Couple with the new management duo of buying players who have the potential to put under contract for 2 3 yrs and sell on and make a profit. Therefore unless to can start moving up the leagues buying and then selling our better players is a fact of lower league football and people need to get over it.

Quoted from megs

80s with your points raised above moving to league 2 would not make a massive difference

Course it would or am I missing something ?
I presume we're not going for promotion just for the sake of it.

Quoted from megs

Couple with the new management duo of buying players who have the potential to put under contract for 2 3 yrs and sell on and make a profit. Therefore unless to can start moving up the leagues buying and then selling our better players is a fact of lower league football and people need to get over it.

Agree but my point is some people need to get over these cup disappointments.

The point making on promotion is that we have made losses for years why would getting back to league 2 help us maintain profit year on year?

Playing at a higher level players will demand higher salaries
Players needed to play at a higher level may cost more to purchase
Are traveling commitments less in L2
Are we likely to get more home support, not on recent seasons

So that's my point......it's not as if clubs in L2 are all mega rich there all struggling right up to championship level

Quoted from grimps

The thing is if we can discover a Bennett every couple of years we'll never have to worry .thats why we need a decent youth set up

Totally agree with this.

Quoted from megs

The point making on promotion is that we have made losses for years why would getting back to league 2 help us maintain profit year on year?

Playing at a higher level players will demand higher salaries
Players needed to play at a higher level may cost more to purchase
Are traveling commitments less in L2
Are we likely to get more home support, not on recent seasons

Well forget any Bennett sales we wouldn't be in profit no, but we'd be very close to it.
Bascially if you're in the Football league you've got more income - it's not rocket science...

As I said whether we would decide to push for another promotion in League 2 is entirely up to us.
Now obviously there's a risk gates may drop etc if we don't but then again we've got a loyal hardcore so hopefully we'd still be better off.

Like I said, paying more in wages isn't ALWAYS the only option EVERY single year.

As for this year it's probably the right thing to push the boat out IMO cos think it's obvious to everyone how important it is to get out of this hellhole league that's doing us no favours.

Quoted from megs

So that's my point......it's not as if clubs in L2 are all mega rich there all struggling right up to championship level

Course they're not and even some of the bigger clubs like Ipswich are in trouble.
Why ?
Cos it's partly down to the new "sink or swim" structure of the game where prizemoney increases almost exponentially the higher you go.
So everyone's either chasing the pot of gold or more likely (for those L2 clubs let alone us !), just trying to stay afloat by keeping in the FL they're in.
If you really want to blame anyone then blame the FA or the Premier League's big money men.
I guess they don't give a flying toss about the ramifications of the effect of the huge differences in league prizemoney or about smaller clubs like us.
Seems to me like they'd rather try to persuade fans to switch clubs than dipping their hand in their own pockets to make things better.

Quoted from megs

The point making on promotion is that we have made losses for years why would getting back to league 2 help us maintain profit year on year?

We made a profit in 2008 and 2006 both league 2 years, obviously 2008 was due to a cup run and 2006 a larger profit was due to being successful in lge 2.

So we can make a profit in league 2 providing we are successful in it, getting to league 2 and being mid-table or worse is not going to do us any good at all accounts wise, so I don't agree a consolidation season would be a good thing, far better to be at the right end of the league with big gates and other income that comes from that.

As for the cup run 80's alludes too, we havn't made the third round of the FA cup since we were automatically in the third round I refuse to believe our club budgets for it every year, despite their statements, as for the fans  they just want to see us win and potentially get Wembley/Man utd away!

Cod not sure on the johnstone paint profit in 08 as  unsure of towns year in but can see where your going with it, more point was that football is a mugs game and very rarely do you make profit, those that do are the top end EPL teams as per what 80s mentioned.

I sure as hell would like to see town in L1 at least and yes a successful team should mean a greater chance of profit.

I think making a profit is good but is making a profit always good look at the various multi-nationals in the media recently that have not paid tax because of not registering profit.

I would argue that making profit at this moment in time will help league rules he they continue to get tougher in if salaries are related to profit etc

The main bonus would be it would give the club greater good will from the bank if thy are running overdrafts or wishing to do borrowing for developments etc. making a loss year on year would likely mean no one going development finance for a ground, unless other personal guarantees are undertaken, such a securing charges against other assests.

Sorry above should by towns year end (not year in)

Quoted from cod.gtfc

getting to league 2 and being mid-table or worse is not going to do us any good at all accounts wise

Well put it this way, it's arguably a lot better than being mid table in the BSP.

My point is it's not like you can always just snap your fingers or choose whatever you like.
Whether you choose to cut expenditure or increase it there's always risks attached either way.

If we choose to just to increase the debt EVERY single year regardless then yes, it could ultimately see us better off as we fly up the leagues, but there's no guarantees.
Think it would be risky or innapropriate (especially in terms of helping to bringing on younger players development etc) to say we'd never be willing to cut our cloth (IMO)

Anyway perhaps we should focus on getting out of this league first eh ?

Quoted from megs

I think making a profit is good but is making a profit always good look at the various multi-nationals in the media recently that have not paid tax because of not registering profit.

Quoted from Gary Haddock

Totally agree with this.

We had a potential 'Bennett' in I'Anson who S&H decided to eff off.

Well tbf they did offer him a contract and wasn't I'anson the one who effed off ?
See your point though...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19967397

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/fin.....n-tax-last-year.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/04/amazon-british-operation-corporation-tax

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20022365

Ok so slight exageration on no tax paid but companies really reducing their tax liability.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

We had a potential 'Bennett' in I'Anson who S&H decided to eff off.

Sorry mate but S+ H offered I'Anson a new contract,

He  decided he would be better off in Spain.

My point was megs you talked about companies "NOT registering profit" but then used that apparent fact to question whether profit(which you claimed wasn't being made or registered) was a good thing.
Is profit the real problem here or just the fact they're not paying any tax on it ?
anyway think we're going off on a tangent here, I'm calling it a day on this thread.

Quoted from megs

Cod not sure on the johnstone paint profit in 08 as  unsure of towns year in but can see where your going with it, more point was that football is a mugs game and very rarely do you make profit, those that do are the top end EPL teams as per what 80s mentioned.

I sure as hell would like to see town in L1 at least and yes a successful team should mean a greater chance of profit.

I think making a profit is good but is making a profit always good look at the various multi-nationals in the media recently that have not paid tax because of not registering profit. I would argue that making profit at this moment in time will help league rules he they continue to get tougher in if salaries are related to profit etc

The main bonus would be it would give the club greater good will from the bank if thy are running overdrafts or wishing to do borrowing for developments etc. making a loss year on year would likely mean no one going development finance for a ground, unless other personal guarantees are undertaken, such a securing charges against other assests.

But they avoid paying tax because they pay huge administration costs to a parent company based in another country. The admin cost is paid like any expense pre-profit and as such the company shows little if any profit for taxation purposes.If the tax levels in the parent companys country is lower than ours then it is more profitable for them to have this arrangement. All perfectly legal but very annoying and frustrating for HMR&C.

No worries fella, came on here to see how many going to Tamworth and end up in tax debate, get enough of that through work. Profit is good at the end of the day tax is just a fact of life.

Quoted from DubaiMariner

Err, how do we have a loss in profits?! Makes no sense; do you mean a reduction in our losses? Even so, what a way to run a business!    

I didnt say it was the way to run a business, I suggested it was a step in the right direction. For a club to reduce its lost by roughly 400k in a season at our level is fairly good going and at least shows some improvement.

Quoted from megs
Cod not sure on the johnstone paint profit in 08 as  unsure of towns year in but can see where your going with it, more point was that football is a mugs game and very rarely do you make profit, those that do are the top end EPL teams as per what 80s mentioned.

I sure as hell would like to see town in L1 at least and yes a successful team should mean a greater chance of profit.

I think making a profit is good but is making a profit always good look at the various multi-nationals in the media recently that have not paid tax because of not registering profit. I would argue that making profit at this moment in time will help league rules he they continue to get tougher in if salaries are related to profit etc

The main bonus would be it would give the club greater good will from the bank if thy are running overdrafts or wishing to do borrowing for developments etc. making a loss year on year would likely mean no one going development finance for a ground, unless other personal guarantees are undertaken, such a securing charges against other assests.



But they avoid paying tax because they pay huge administration costs to a parent company based in another country. The admin cost is paid like any expense pre-profit and as such the company shows little if any profit for taxation purposes.If the tax levels in the parent companys country is lower than ours then it is more profitable for them to have this arrangement. All perfectly legal but very annoying and frustrating for HMR&C.


Didnt say it was illegal that's why they do it a bit like how sole traders can set themselves up as limited companies and reduce their NI contributions and tax liability by paying themselves a basic salary and dividend that is charged at corporation tax levels which is overall less than personal tax liability.

Trying to get back to the point on profit and loss on football agree that profit is a good thing especially in current economic climate and lending to business is only going to get tougher or trying to sell a business is going to get tougher having a profit would help for these reasons alone.

Quoted from grimsby pete

Sorry mate but S+ H offered I'Anson a new contract,

He  decided he would be better off in Spain.

He had the potential to be another Bennett and we offered him a DERISORY contract.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

He had the potential to be another Bennett and we offered him a DERISORY contract.

BUT the mirrored contract that Thanoj signed immediately?

Realising potential needs a lot of things on top of ability

Quoted from MuddyWaters

He had the potential to be another Bennett and we offered him a DERISORY contract.

How do you know what was in his contract ?

Quoted from BIGChris

BUT the mirrored contract that Thanoj signed immediately?

Realising potential needs a lot of things on top of ability

Accept that Chris, but in my opinion I'Anson always looked more the finished article and seemingly had other options. Seem to recall that he played a large percentage of the long unbeaten run??

Quoted from grimsby pete

How do you know what was in his contract ?

I know that there's two sides to every story Pete and that he seemed to want to go back to Spain but I heard from a friend of his that it was, in real terms, less than he was already on.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

I know that there's two sides to every story Pete and that he seemed to want to go back to Spain but I heard from a friend of his that it was, in real terms, less than he was already on.

He was offered the same as Thanoj who was only too happen to sign, lucky for us, as he has far more potential than I'Anson.

Quoted from cod.gtfc

He was offered the same as Thanoj who was only too happen to sign, lucky for us, as he has far more potential than I'Anson.

Really? Suppose that's why he's warming the bench then!

Quoted from MuddyWaters

Really? Suppose that's why he's warming the bench then!

you don't know what "potential" means?

Quoted from MuddyWaters

Accept that Chris, but in my opinion I'Anson always looked more the finished article and seemingly had other options. Seem to recall that he played a large percentage of the long unbeaten run??

Garner and miller were the two in the unbeaten run