Kamikaze Tactics

Yet again we had a display of the new kamikaze tactics of the goalie playing out field-Stay in the area where you should be .Very close again to gifting the opposition a goal. Also why do both centre backs have to go up for corners. Both these practices need stopping fast. This league is quite tight at the top end and giving silly goals away could cost us at the end of the season. As we are a not free scoring side nowadays we need a very disciplined defence to maintain our position and not get caught on the break.

Both centre backs are a threat from corners. Well they would be if the corner beat the first man.

I don't mind the keeper going up in the last minute, increases your chance of scoring and points are far more important than goal difference. Also think both centrebacks should be up for corners, the opposition usually leaves 1 player forward in which case you need 2 defenders back, so it's best to keep your full backs marking that player and let your centrebacks to go forward.  

Quoted from we will return

I don't mind the keeper going up in the last minute, increases your chance of scoring and points are far more important than goal difference. Also think both centrebacks should be up for corners, the opposition usually leaves 1 player forward in which case you need 2 defenders back, so it's best to keep your full backs marking that player and let your centrebacks to go forward.  

This entirely.

If our centre backs never went up, we would be even less free scoring.provide cover and send them both up, hardly a new or revolutionary thing is it?
Also you say yet again the goalie went up, are you referring to the cup game when Mckeown went up? We were going out anyway so it makes absolutely zero difference if we went out by an extra goal, we're still out.

Some guy who sits behind me in the upper smiths was loudly and continually moaning about mckeown going up in the last minutes of the cup game, I don't understand some people's desire to moan about the strangest things.

Quoted from we will return

I don't mind the keeper going up in the last minute, increases your chance of scoring and points are far more important than goal difference. Also think both centrebacks should be up for corners, the opposition usually leaves 1 player forward in which case you need 2 defenders back, so it's best to keep your full backs marking that player and let your centrebacks to go forward.  

Standard practice across the planet. For good reason.

Quoted from we will return

I don't mind the keeper going up in the last minute, increases your chance of scoring and points are far more important than goal difference. Also think both centrebacks should be up for corners, the opposition usually leaves 1 player forward in which case you need 2 defenders back, so it's best to keep your full backs marking that player and let your centrebacks to go forward.  

McKeown has got nowhere near the ball on the three occasions he has come up. There is absolutely no evidence to support this assertion other than Glass scoring for Carlisle. The Dartford game had two minutes to go. There is no telling what might have happened. Instead we played out those last minutes two down.
Saturday could have been the same.

There is a reason they are goal keepers, because they are better at stopping the ball going in the net than scoring goals (With the exception of Anthony Williams). Keepers just go up and get in the way of someone better able to direct the ball into the back of the net.  When it comes to football this one of my pet  peeves, I've never understood the need for keepers to be almost at the halfway line when the ball is in the opposition half. Sure, charge out the area to close a player down if needed, but these acts of bravado of nonchalantly sitting so far up the field just makes them stupid when they have to back peddle like idiots into the area to use a keepers one main advantage, their fecking hands. Personally I'd tie them to the goal line. The fact that Glass' goal is so well known kind of shows how rare a keeper scoring like this is.

Quoted from scrumble

There is a reason they are goal keepers, because they are better at stopping the ball going in the net than scoring goals (With the exception of Anthony Williams). Keepers just go up and get in the way of someone better able to direct the ball into the back of the net.  When it comes to football this one of my pet  peeves, I've never understood the need for keepers to be almost at the halfway line when the ball is in the opposition half. Sure, charge out the area to close a player down if needed, but these acts of bravado of nonchalantly sitting so far up the field just makes them stupid when they have to back peddle like idiots into the area to use a keepers one main advantage, their fecking hands. Personally I'd tie them to the goal line. The fact that Glass' goal is so well known kind of shows how rare a keeper scoring like this is.

With you on this, if Mckeown came up for set pieces 100 times he would not score and just gets in the way, and why does he go walk abouts during a game sometimes almost to half way is he a frustrated outfield player, please stick to what you are good at goalkeeper

Quoted from scrumble

There is a reason they are goal keepers, because they are better at stopping the ball going in the net than scoring goals (With the exception of Anthony Williams). Keepers just go up and get in the way of someone better able to direct the ball into the back of the net.  When it comes to football this one of my pet  peeves, I've never understood the need for keepers to be almost at the halfway line when the ball is in the opposition half. Sure, charge out the area to close a player down if needed, but these acts of bravado of nonchalantly sitting so far up the field just makes them stupid when they have to back peddle like idiots into the area to use a keepers one main advantage, their fecking hands. Personally I'd tie them to the goal line. The fact that Glass' goal is so well known kind of shows how rare a keeper scoring like this is.

With you on this, if Mckeown came up for set pieces 100 times he would not score and just gets in the way, and why does he go walk abouts during a game sometimes almost to half way is he a frustrated outfield player, please stick to what you are good at goalkeeping

Quoted from barralad

McKeown has got nowhere near the ball on the three occasions he has come up. There is absolutely no evidence to support this assertion other than Glass scoring for Carlisle. The Dartford game had two minutes to go. There is no telling what might have happened. Instead we played out those last minutes two down.
Saturday could have been the same.

From where i was sat vs. kiddi it looked like he was inches away from turning it in?
More likely to score than elding anyhow  

Quoted from bradzmilne

From where i was sat vs. kiddi it looked like he was inches away from turning it in?
More likely to score than elding anyhow  

That's what I thought. Brad Friedel, Paul Robinson, Peter Schmeichel and some bloke for Standard Liege in the Champions League are other keepers who've done it off the top of my head.

Wouldn't be moaning if he scored though A?  

Quoted from Gary Haddock

Wouldn't be moaning if he scored though A?  

But would be moaning if we'd conceeded another and missed out on the play offs by a goal, or if he'd slightly mistimed his challenge and got sent off.

Ridiculous decision in my view.  It's OK in a cup game when losing by another goal makes no difference, or the last game of the season, but in a game in the middle of the season it seems foolish to me.

Surely though keepers are usually tall guys and have a strong spring behind them. This means that you have another player coming forward, that nobody has been delegated to mark.

As such there is a possibility they end up being marked by a weak 'aerial' player. Plus it also causes some confusion in the opposition box as the defenders sort out who is marking who.

I'd argue that theres a fairly high % of keepers scoring, compared to how often they actually go up there. Jimmy Glass's goal is only so famous based on the fact that it kept a team in the league.

As for sending both centre backs up, the opposition usually leave their fastest player up around half way, meaning that you dont necessarily need your generally taller centre backs to deal with them. As with most teams, the centre backs are up there with the strongest players and best at heading so why not send them up for the threat.

There are not many teams I can think of were only one of the centre backs goes forward.

Quoted from cocky

But would be moaning if we'd conceeded another and missed out on the play offs by a goal, or if he'd slightly mistimed his challenge and got sent off.

Ridiculous decision in my view.  It's OK in a cup game when losing by another goal makes no difference, or the last game of the season, but in a game in the middle of the season it seems foolish to me.

Works both ways, what if he'd scored that goal that helped us win the league? Like I said, works both ways. Can't just look at it one way and say "bad decision" as it would of proven a good decision if he had scored. So no point moaning.

I'd say that the percentage is negligible. If a keeper scores it usually gets highlighted in the papers, ignoring goals scored by a keepers clearance from his own half, when was the last time you heard of it? Robinson scored for Spurs five years or so back, but thats the most recent I remember. Even if it happens in the lower leagues it usually makes into the papers or the youtube vid passed around on facebook.

Quoted from cocky

But would be moaning if we'd conceeded another and missed out on the play offs by a goal...

So if we're 2-0 down with 5 minutes to go, we should sit on it, because if we conceded another it could be the goal that cost us promotion?

I am fully behind goalkeepers going forward for corners, it is an extra man and hes tall he it might contribute to the score

Quoted from Abdul19

So if we're 2-0 down with 5 minutes to go, we should sit on it, because if we conceded another it could be the goal that cost us promotion?

Yes, I'd assume that more goals are scored against when a keeper goes up, than goals scored for.  Otherwise, why wait for the final 5 minutes, why not send the keeper up for all corners?

Quoted from Alkalineroger

Some guy who sits behind me in the upper smiths was loudly and continually moaning about mckeown going up in the last minutes of the cup game, I don't understand some people's desire to moan about the strangest things.

Agree it makes no real sense but will hazard a guess it's cos people just don't like conceding goals full stop (especially in a manner some might consider make us look silly or desparate) regardless of the score.

Jesus Christ, why is the keeper going up even a flipping debate. An extra body in there means an extra person for them to deal with so it's worth a punt if you're going into the last minutes wanting a draw.

Quoted from barralad

McKeown has got nowhere near the ball on the three occasions he has come up. There is absolutely no evidence to support this assertion other than Glass scoring for Carlisle. The Dartford game had two minutes to go. There is no telling what might have happened. Instead we played out those last minutes two down.
Saturday could have been the same.

Are you for real? Like I've just said the keeper might as well go up if we're looking for a draw in the last few minutes of a match. Even if the keeper gets nowhere near the ball it it's an extra man to think about for the opposition defenders and even a distraction which could allow a team-mate to pop up and score.

As for your claim of no evidence...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGkxvL65Tt4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNHfclJ6rtM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuBRYWc-hh0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG4fd4ZUPuE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SvBGeAD-f4&feature=related

Here are 5 examples. I swear some people just argue for the sake of it.

Quoted from davmariner

Jesus Christ, why is the keeper going up even a flipping debate. An extra body in there means an extra person for them to deal with so it's worth a punt if you're going into the last minutes wanting a draw.

Agreed, an extra body is possibly worthwhile,  but on Saturday Thomas was stood on the halfway line whilt McKeown was in the box.  Now I agree that the keeper may have an inch or two advantage, but also less experience of heading a football.

If you must have an extra body in the box, put Thomas in there and have McKeown sweeping on the half way line and putting the ball back in if it comes to him.  That way if there is a break at least you've got a 1 on 1 with someone that can use their hands in the area.  However, I still think it should be used solely in cup games and towards the end of the season.

I dont think the principle of a goalkeeper going forward is for him to actually score but more to do with just having another body in the box.

Quoted from biggles9999

Surely though keepers are usually tall guys and have a strong spring behind them. This means that you have another player coming forward, that nobody has been delegated to mark.

As such there is a possibility they end up being marked by a weak 'aerial' player. Plus it also causes some confusion in the opposition box as the defenders sort out who is marking who.

I'd argue that theres a fairly high % of keepers scoring, compared to how often they actually go up there. Jimmy Glass's goal is only so famous based on the fact that it kept a team in the league.

As for sending both centre backs up, the opposition usually leave their fastest player up around half way, meaning that you dont necessarily need your generally taller centre backs to deal with them. As with most teams, the centre backs are up there with the strongest players and best at heading so why not send them up for the threat.

There are not many teams I can think of were only one of the centre backs goes forward.

The only thing missing from this fairy tale are the words "Once Upon a Time" at the beginning

Oh and I'd love to see some hard evidence for your third paragraph.

And if we miss out on playoffs by one goal, then there will be an uproar!

Sending a goalie up is exactly what people have said - another body.... in the way !

Get corners and free kicks practiced properly instead of wasting the kick each time, sorry... passing to their keeper each time!

Quoted from davmariner

I swear some people just argue for the sake of it.

Welcome to MY world !  

Only joking barralad
Even if I don't neccesarily agree an extra man isn't worthwhile I wasn't aware of those goals either !  

Quoted from cocky

Agreed, an extra body is possibly worthwhile,  but on Saturday Thomas was stood on the halfway line whilt McKeown was in the box.  Now I agree that the keeper may have an inch or two advantage, but also less experience of heading a football.

If you must have an extra body in the box, put Thomas in there and have McKeown sweeping on the half way line and putting the ball back in if it comes to him.  That way if there is a break at least you've got a 1 on 1 with someone that can use their hands in the area.

This seems to be a good enough point though !
Personally don't really give a toss about the risk of another goals difference but yeah, would probably get Macca up to the half way line as last defender instead of someone else who should be in the box.

Quoted from acko338

And if we miss out on playoffs by one goal, then there will be an uproar!

Well there shouldn't be IMO.
If it really did happen I'm sure you'd be able to highlight a whole host of "mistakes" which made the difference.

Quoted from acko338

And if we miss out on playoffs by one goal, then there will be an uproar!

!

What if he'd scored and we won the league by that goal difference?   Works both ways.

Quoted from acko338

And if we miss out on playoffs by one goal, then there will be an uproar!

Over the course of 46 games there'd be countless goals conceded/chances missed that could be that 'one goal'.

Quoted from acko338

And if we miss out on playoffs by one goal, then there will be an uproar!

Sending a goalie up is exactly what people have said - another body.... in the way !

Get corners and free kicks practiced properly instead of wasting the kick each time, sorry... passing to their keeper each time!

Think when you compare the probabilities, it's much more likely that a keeper will score from a corner than us losing out on promotion by 1 goal...

The comment about the centre backs going up is abit daft tbh, them 2 are probably are best headers of the ball?
& at a guess Wood and Thomas are the 2 quickest defenders would be able to compete better against a counter attack.
The fact that nearly every team sends both Centre halfs up and probably has done for a very very long time would suggest its not a bad idea.

As for the keeper, yeah why not if its literally the last kick, but anytime before that isn't a good idea really.

Quoted from brad_gtfc

The comment about the centre backs going up is abit daft tbh, them 2 are probably are best headers of the ball?
& at a guess Wood and Thomas are the 2 quickest defenders would be able to compete better against a counter attack.
The fact that nearly every team sends both Centre halfs up and probably has done for a very very long time would suggest its not a bad idea.

As for the keeper, yeah why not if its literally the last kick, but anytime before that isn't a good idea really.

And also it's better if the ball comes back out to the full backs as they'd be able to deliver a decent ball back in the box.

My point here is quite simple -we are not currently in winning ways and stupid actions of desparation will not help.We need to tighten back up as a little success -away- has made us sloppy. As for my two points , Macca can't kick straight from a goalkick let alone head a ball so pointless sending him up and at least one of the centre backs should be there to protect him-think clean sheets.

Quoted from davmariner

Are you for real? Like I've just said the keeper might as well go up if we're looking for a draw in the last few minutes of a match. Even if the keeper gets nowhere near the ball it it's an extra man to think about for the opposition defenders and even a distraction which could allow a team-mate to pop up and score.

As for your claim of no evidence...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGkxvL65Tt4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNHfclJ6rtM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuBRYWc-hh0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG4fd4ZUPuE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SvBGeAD-f4&feature=related

Here are 5 examples. I swear some people just argue for the sake of it.

I'll refrain from asking you whether you are real. You may well have "just said" but I obviously posted several hours before that gem arrived on the board.  Being pedantic it takes two to argue but never mind. I am impressed with the number of examples you've found and concede that it may work on occasion. I suspect though that the cases where it has done no good whatsoever but which aren't recorded for posterity because it ain't very interesting will far outweigh the ones where a goal results. We must be doing something wrong as McKeown hasn't looked like scoring but HAS conceded two goals and nearly a third on Saturday. I'm quite liking the solution below of leaving McKeown patrolling the centre circle whilst someone who knows a bit more about scoring the odd goal or two makes the extra man that will confuse the opposition defence.

Quoted from davmariner

Think when you compare the probabilities, it's much more likely that a keeper will score from a corner than us losing out on promotion by 1 goal...

I'd agree with that though!

I REST MY CASE !

We was kamikaze because our attack apart from hannah is urine poor,we need to throw players into attack to score because the forwards cant do it on there own like liam hearn does,resulting in us getting caught out on the break as we have seen late on in the home games against macclesfield and dartford that both resulted in goals (1 from a penalty)

All of this 1 goal thing, you need to remember say for example disley passes to colbeck and colbeck shoots but it hit the post, if he passed it to niven he could of scored, so many possibilities

What team dosn't send both center backs up for corners? generally center backs are the tallest players in the team and therefore the biggest threats from corners!

First time I've seen this thread and it has to be a contender for the most stupidest ever.

Tell you what's even more stupid.
Initially it was about the goalie going up, now it's been bumped cos we conceded on the break !

I have just watched  Man City with all their millions struggle against a cleaning comany/

They have the most expensive players in the world playing for them,

Yet they can not defend a corner,

So much for zonal marking !!!!!!!!

Quoted from grimsby pete

I have just watched  Man City with all their millions struggle against a cleaning company

      

Man city are too individual I mean they have a lot of greedy gets