Our achilles heel needs sorting once and for all

I was pleased with the level of hardwork and commitment today and clapped the team off at the end.

Apart from the fact the game was even, felt even more disapppointed for the defeat cos right before the goal went in, I was thinking
"We're too deep ! we're too deep !"

NOOOOOOO !!!!  

Don't want to say it but now the runs over I'm going to - I saw the warning signs in the Southport game.
Was seriously soul searching and deliberating whether to post a thread callled "Can I talk improvements ?" after that game.
I even wrote it but didn't post it (see below)

Why not ?
Rightly or wrongly didn't want to say anything to upset the applecart while the run was going or get slagged off by the postivity police !  

Anyway here it is....
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Great battling performance, well done to all.

Can we talk possible improvements ?

Two things really.
Main one this old habit of dropping so deep into our own box.
I know it's natural reaction to get bodies behind the ball but I still think we play with fire at times.
Can understand 1st half more cos Southport with wind were throwing deep into box but can't we try to push out a bit more ?
Sometimes it's 3 or 4 players near the 6 yard box.
Players just seem a bit too over-keen to scramble back, wish they'd be as keen to push out.

Sorry, always had concerns with attackers defending - always have, always will.
Not knocking Elding one bit for the OG (think I've seen Duffy make a mistake in defence this season) + several others like Bore before.
Maybe sometimes they're more trouble than they're worth back there and we might be better off using them as an outlet to counter-attack more ?
Attack a better form of defence than sitting on your own goalline.  

tbh thought our ball control was a little sloppy at times, players got to believe it will stick.

When everyone is closed down, also like to see a player pick up the ball and run to open up space.

We look fairly solid at the back, midfield need to help defence and win the ball a bit more ?
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Not saying "I told you so"(sod off in advance if you're gonna imply it, think I'm not gutted seeing us lose ?), the point is this has been like a bad habit for GTFC for far too long.

Even under Woods !
No real idea why - is a Grimsby thing ? Have we been too used to hanging on to leads or defending ?

I noticed Shaun Pearson talk on RH about lack of marking etc and fair enough.
But surely the point is, if you're pushed up to the edge of the box it's bloody difficult to score from a header !?

I understand it isn't easy at all - York pass it well around the edge of the box but IMO S&H have got to drill it into the players individually and collectively to bust a gut to push out of their defensive area/6 yard box as quickly as possible like their lives depended on it !

At the end of the day fans will moan and get frustrated at players all they want at 0-1 but the damage is already done.

One other tactical issue we're faced with is one that we've had earlier this season aginst the top teams.
It's the gap between the midfield and defence.

When York got behind the midfield and were breaking with pace, you could see the defence weren't sure whether to back off or push up.
Disley especially did well with his tackling (got his foot in loads) but it was a constant job to track back and get goalside against pacy players like Chambers.

What's the answer ?
Not much you can do about opposition pace and our midfield isn't the fastest.
You can play a man in front of the back four but no-one really wants to be that defensive (especially at home).

I'd be interested to know if people agree and if so, what they'd do.
Not sure there are any easy answers.
I suppose my philosphy is the more you've got the ball, the less you have to defend.
Simply put, get better at keeping the ball and use it more effectively.

What a complete load of bollox

Quoted from pseudonym

What a complete load of bollox

This

Quoted from 1600

I was pleased with the level of hardwork and commitment today and clapped the team off at the end.

Apart from the fact the game was even, felt even more disapppointed for the defeat cos right before the goal went in, I was thinking
"We're too deep ! we're too deep !"

NOOOOOOO !!!!  

Don't want to say it but now the runs over I'm going to - I saw the warning signs in the Southport game.
Was seriously soul searching and deliberating whether to post a thread callled "Can I talk improvements ?" after that game.
I even wrote it but didn't post it (see below)

Why not ?
Rightly or wrongly didn't want to say anything to upset the applecart while the run was going or get slagged off by the postivity police !  

Anyway here it is....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Great battling performance, well done to all.

Can we talk possible improvements ?

Two things really.
Main one this old habit of dropping so deep into our own box.
I know it's natural reaction to get bodies behind the ball but I still think we play with fire at times.
Can understand 1st half more cos Southport with wind were throwing deep into box but can't we try to push out a bit more ?
Sometimes it's 3 or 4 players near the 6 yard box.
Players just seem a bit too over-keen to scramble back, wish they'd be as keen to push out.

Sorry, always had concerns with attackers defending - always have, always will.
Not knocking Elding one bit for the OG (think I've seen Duffy make a mistake in defence this season) + several others like Bore before.
Maybe sometimes they're more trouble than they're worth back there and we might be better off using them as an outlet to counter-attack more ?
Attack a better form of defence than sitting on your own goalline.  

tbh thought our ball control was a little sloppy at times, players got to believe it will stick.

When everyone is closed down, also like to see a player pick up the ball and run to open up space.

We look fairly solid at the back, midfield need to help defence and win the ball a bit more ?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not saying "I told you so"(sod off in advance if you're gonna imply it, think I'm not gutted seeing us lose ?), the point is this has been like a bad habit for GTFC for far too long.

Even under Woods !
No real idea why - is a Grimsby thing ? Have we been too used to hanging on to leads or defending ?

I noticed Shaun Pearson talk on RH about lack of marking etc and fair enough.
But surely the point is, if you're pushed up to the edge of the box it's bloody difficult to score from a header !?

I understand it isn't easy at all - York pass it well around the edge of the box but IMO S&H have got to drill it into the players individually and collectively to bust a gut to push out of their defensive area/6 yard box as quickly as possible like their lives depended on it !

At the end of the day fans will moan and get frustrated at players all they want at 0-1 but the damage is already done.

One other tactical issue we're faced with is one that we've had earlier this season aginst the top teams.
It's the gap between the midfield and defence.

When York got behind the midfield and were breaking with pace, you could see the defence weren't sure whether to back off or push up.
Disley especially did well with his tackling (got his foot in loads) but it was a constant job to track back and get goalside against pacy players like Chambers.

What's the answer ?
Not much you can do about opposition pace and our midfield isn't the fastest.
You can play a man in front of the back four but no-one really wants to be that defensive (especially at home).

I'd be interested to know if people agree and if so, what they'd do.
Not sure there are any easy answers.
I suppose my philosphy is the more you've got the ball, the less you have to defend.
Simply put, get better at keeping the ball and use it more effectively.

WTF

Those constructive comments have certainly put me in my place.

80s is right, and to be fair he hasnt posted it as a moan at the team but he is pointing out a fault of ours. This fault does exist in our team IMO, but no team is 100% perfect & I for one am not going to moan about a low defensive line as after HandS know best as the last few months have shown.

Quoted from 1600

Those constructive comments have certainly put me in my place.

I think you seem to be forgetting that we are a team from the Blue Square Premier, not the Premier League or Championship! All teams at this level make mistakes in games. And considering we've lost twice in twenty odd games, I hardly see that our defensive line has been a major issue.

You don't see it ?
Fair enough, I do.

You say mistakes happen but I would argue it's not even a mistake, it's just a tactical habit that isn't doing us any favours IMO.

S&H are doing a great job and this isn't a dig at them whatsoever.
But if you think they're not trying to improve as managers or are 100% perfect themselves then I suggest you're probably wrong.

It's a tricky subject cos fact is, defending deep in numbers(in general) often works(hear Pearson say he got a bit lucky ?) and it's not an exact science.
I know it's sometimes unavoidable but bottom line, further you're pushed out as a unit, less you'll concede in the box.

And I'm not forgetting we're in the BSP at all mate.
Maybe if people stopped being so touchy about every bit of honest criticism meant to help, then expectations wouldn't have dropped so far and we wouldn't be !  

We always defend deep!

Me being a ex keeper and cb we were taught to push out at Every opportunity like you say burst at gut, also was told from a young age to drop back a few yards on a goal kick but still push up as soon as the ball goes over your head. It's not the players as it happens what ever back 4 we play. I have noticed macca burst blood vessels screaming push up most games its basic really.

Unless they get told to by the managers I don't know why they do it every game, it invites pressure and makes the crowd nervous.

Anyway on another note thanoj looks a player now can see him scoring a few soon and his tackling has improved alot since I last see him play which is the biggest part of his game that needs improving.

Utm

I mentioned today that we were too deep, but I don't agree that it's always the case. It was noticeable today though but when your playing against a team who try to counter as often as they can with 2 good quick attacking wingers you have to stay deep or your going to get caught out. Especially as we're lacking in pace with Pearson and Silk at the back.

One of the main reasons we was getting deep was the fact our target man wasn't winning anything up top and holding the play up which would have given the defence an opportunity to push up, there defence had it too easy today and could simply win it and knock it forward pushing us back.

Thought we also missed Miller, been a leader when i've seem him play and talked to the back line and pushed us up, but thats not to say Pearson and Ianson  didn't play well, just young and lack the experience. But saying that York didn't really put us under that much pressure.

all in all we have lost twice in 20 odd games .. but in the cup   not in the league where it matters more

Quoted from denni266

all in all we have lost twice in 20 odd games .. but in the cup   not in the league where it matters more

Exactly

I hope Soares provides more width when needed, as I do believe we are short of effective pace outwide.

Its not that much of an Achilles heel or it hasn't been for the past 20 odd games anyway.

Quoted from Super Clive

Unless they get told to by the managers I don't know why they do it every game, it invites pressure and makes the crowd nervous.

"Protect what you've got" mentality I guess mate.
Completely understandable but the right option ?

Quoted from pontoonlew

I mentioned today that we were too deep, but I don't agree that it's always the case. It was noticeable today though but when your playing against a team who try to counter as often as they can with 2 good quick attacking wingers you have to stay deep or your going to get caught out. Especially as we're lacking in pace with Pearson and Silk at the back.

Very good point IMO see what you mean, but you could argue we got caught out anyway ?

But I agree you're right, not easy when you're up against pace - what can you do ?

I just think you're better off MAKING them attack you from 50/60 yards out and ask them to PROVE IT than drop back and arguably give them a helping hand.

Don't really want to criticize the team but intercourse it (sometimes it's for the best), so I'm gonna say this too....

Seems to me it's not just defence.  
Seen a few games this season with players fairly static, lack of movement whatever.
Then we lose the ball and it's like they ALL love nothing better than to sprint back as fast and as far back as they can.
Why aren't they as keen to run like mad to run forward or close down the opposition man in front of them ?

That's my impression anyway - too keen to run back, not keen enough to go forward.

I just think there's enough long-term room for improvement that we could be laughing.

To be clear I don't really blame Scott and Hurst cos I see it as a psychological issue with the players (for whatever reason).

Quoted from Chris

Its not that much of an Achilles heel or it hasn't been for the past 20 odd games anyway.

Maybe so but most of the teams we've played haven't been as good as York.
If we can't beat the better teams we're not going up, simple as that.

But yeah, players out but coming back, it's not that I'm not still hopeful, I am !

Just think plan should be to step up to the next level and be BETTER than York, BETTER than Luton...
It's not as if we can't be.

I completely agree that we defend too deep 80's. t's bizarrely not the defence that do though, it's the midfield. Many time today, the 2 CB's and the 2 CM's were within 15 yards of each other. I even remarked it to Civvy at HT and he was talking to an old boy in the Findus bar before I got there and had said the exact same thing too. When Thanoj OR Disley gave the defence that extra 5-6 yards, they were able to pick up any clearance that the CB's made and ease the pressure by gaining possession again. When they didn't we looked very short manned going out from defensive situations.

Good point Biccy's - at least try to stand your ground and be an outlet !

You see that's also why I'm not keen on attackers defending set pieces - we clear it and who's there to hold the ball up ?
Sometimes no-one.

Exactly. You're right, you CAN have too many defending at any one time. It does lead to confusion sometimes when players leave it to each other whereas if there's nobody to leave it to it gets dealt with. Elding however is one I DO like seeing back there helping out. He's a big lump who is decent  the air and can give valuable experience to the very youthful defence.

Couldn't be arsed to read all of that but I would imagine the reason we play deep is because we lack pace at the back. Very wise in my opinion.

Quoted from Biccys

Exactly. You're right, you CAN have too many defending at any one time. It does lead to confusion sometimes when players leave it to each other whereas if there's nobody to leave it to it gets dealt with. Elding however is one I DO like seeing back there helping out. He's a big lump who is decent  the air and can give valuable experience to the very youthful defence.

Well put, you've won me over.
That's a fact !  

Quoted from pseudonym

What a complete load of bollox

bit of a sweeping statement there Tel...........

Teams lower down the leagues do this, even the good ones. We lacked a bit of shape yesterday and to be honest at times neither team really seemed that bothered IMHO.

We did make mistakes yesterday as did they, had the ref seen the handball and their keeper had not pulled off a great save we may have won. We didn't, end of story. If there was a game where a mistake was to be made then yesterday was that game.

Just an aside, for me the southport game proved we are strong playoff contenders actually. Don't play very well in iffy conditions and win against play off rivals...

Football Manager has a lot to answer for.

Quoted from Chris

Its not that much of an Achilles heel or it hasn't been for the past 20 odd games anyway.

It is if other teams exploit it Any weakness is only a problem if it is found and exploited by the opposition.

Just on that note rancido, I thought York kind of did that cos their subs hit us with pace and dragged us all over.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Football Manager has a lot to answer for.

Turn the fornicator off then.

Whooooosh

I think another flaw would be in this argument is that you cant say it's an Achilles heal because a deep line would suggest we are finding it hard to get forward because we're too deep, the most home goals in the country suggests it isn't hampering us playing deeper at times.