Lincoln City

Quoted from Mappers

I'm not sure they were privvy to the 10 year audit , and if they were the amount of work required from it was a shock ; on the DN35 podcast interview that's the impression I got anyway . Is there another inteview with Pettit?

Everything is a shock. It fits the poor weee narrative and fuels the fans. And yes Andrew confirmed they were given the document.

Quoted from jamesgtfc

I think any club that is having significant sums pumped into it has a right to get nervous once it stops progressing at the current level of investment. Lincoln require £3m a year to finish mid-table in League One. The King's Lynn owner is now begging for investment and saying he won't plug the £300k gap in the finances this season. They are full-time with crowds of 800 in the NLN, and currently 21st. The original club, King's Lynn FC folded in 2010 after getting kicked out of the NLN for their ground not meeting requirements following promotion the previous year. I don't think there is interest in King's Lynn for a full-time team, but their owner has pumped money in, taken them to the NL, got relegated, almost got promoted last season, and now it's tough, he's spitting his dummy out. It happens all of the time and I do wonder when the Lincoln investors decide they aren't going to cover the losses anymore.

I know someone who’s well informed at KLT and Stephen Cleave is skint. It’s not that he doesn’t want to continue bankrolling the club. It’s simply that he no longer has the money to.

I applaud the Lincoln fans for thinking their club is financially ok, surely if a sugar daddy is having to pump in £3 million a year just to standstill, it should be a concern. If I had a shop and it was losing £80 grand a year it wouldn’t be long before it was closed.

Quoted from GibMariner

Stupid we turned our back on relocation. Chance won’t come again without a sugar daddy.

Interesting to hear AP stated in a podcast they were privy to the 10 year BP status report when buying the club.

You would have thought buying GTFC was a dream, according to the accounts it was sustainable, no profitable, with no outside debt and 800k in the bank. Few players on the books (a mangers dream). Playing assets soon to be sold for next to nowt. Relocation options, fish docks / freeman street. Fans backing.

Yet JS stated at the beginning that BP had potential as the ground was not full every week and the club must be sustainable.

Sounds to me like the buyer was made aware and they should have a plan. Or at least I hope they do have one.

The fact they we don't fill BP week in week out so we don't need a new ground is a pretty poor argument. However I do understand the need to concentrate on other areas of the football club first. But a long term future will require a new ground. 4K plus attendance at the roads and streets are gridlocked, the ground has poor facilities and can't be improved significantly to make it a long term viable option to take the club forward. It's a dump but all we have at the moment. Teams like Rotherham, Hull, Shrewsbury, Colchester, MK Dons (sort of), Boston, York, Chesterfield to name a few didn't fill their grounds and they seemed to have the ambition to move and improve the fan experience. Attendances will increase because of this and then it's up to the management and players to keep them there and increase attendances further.

Quoted from Dogger Bank

The fact they we don't fill BP week in week out so we don't need a new ground is pretty poor argument. However I do understand the need to concentrate on other areas of the football club first. But a long term future will require a new ground. 4K plus attendance at the roads and streets are gridlocked, the ground has poor facilities and can't be improved significantly to make it a long term viable option to take the club forward. It's a dump but all we have at the moment. Teams like Rotherham, Hull, Shrewsbury, Colchester, MK Dons (sort of), Boston, York, Chesterfield to name a few didn't fill their grounds and they seemed to have the ambition to move and improve the fan experience. Attendances will increase because of this and then it's up to the management and players to keep them there and increase attendances further.

Over half of your examples for me at least underpin why we should look to enhance BP and try to find a way to increase capacity there with better facilities /commercial opportunities - impressed with stadium MK but oversized , only possible because of a giant retail park /Winklefella , Chesterfield pretty poor for me , Boston ok but tiny and out in a village with a Greggs and burger king as food choices, no bars other than in the ground . York not upto much as far as a football stadium goes and has a weird variation of coloured seats ; Colchester the worst of the lot and a long walk from the town with nothing close by at all .

Rotherham I like and the KC was good I'm sure that's showing it's age now though as I have not been for 15 years ?

I still think there is room for the old traditional stadiums and some clubs are redeveloping grounds in tight areas - Pompey , Fulham ,Exeter ,Wrexham and Stockport all rebuilding to some degree ; it can be done but exactly like a new ground obviously costs a hell of a lot of ££££££ .

Quoted from Mappers

Over half of your examples for me at least underpin why we should look to enhance BP and try to find a way to increase capacity there with better facilities /commercial opportunities - impressed with stadium MK but oversized , only possible because of a giant retail park /Winklefella , Chesterfield pretty poor for me , Boston ok but tiny and out in a village with a Greggs and burger king as food choices, no bars other than in the ground . York not upto much as far as a football stadium goes and has a weird variation of coloured seats ; Colchester the worst of the lot and a long walk from the town with nothing close by at all .

Rotherham I like and the KC was good I'm sure that's showing it's age now though as I have not been for 15 years ?

I still think there is room for the old traditional stadiums and some clubs are redeveloping grounds in tight areas - Pompey , Fulham ,Exeter ,Wrexham and Stockport all rebuilding to some degree ; it can be done but exactly like a new ground obviously costs a hell of a lot of ££££££ .

I agree with your descriptions of some of the grounds and not what I would want if we ever went for a new home. That wasn't my point though, just examples of clubs who didn't pack their grounds out (some far from it) but they moved to try and take their club forward. I would assume the maintenance costs of running those grounds is significantly lower than trying to maintain an older ground and keep it up to standards to allow them to operate. Older grounds are romantic and part of the football heritage in this country, that doesn't mean we should keep them.

Blundell Park for me can't be improved drastically to make it viable long term. Surrounded three sides with terraced housing and a road/railway line the other. Any expansion (if that was possible) would cause even more traffic, parking and pedestrian issues in the surrounding area. There have been new grounds muted over a long period of time but none of come to fruition for various reasons. There have been good reasons why we should move and they still apply. As Andrew Pettit said at the forum any new ground would have to incorporate many  areas of use aside football to make it financially viable to run. It's not top of the shopping list for the club at the moment but long term we go nowhere staying at BP as a club, attracting players or new fans for that matter.

Quoted from Dogger Bank

I agree with your descriptions of some of the grounds and not what I would want if we ever went for a new home. That wasn't my point though, just examples of clubs who didn't pack their grounds out (some far from it) but they moved to try and take their club forward. I would assume the maintenance costs of running those grounds is significantly lower than trying to maintain an older ground and keep it up to standards to allow them to operate. Older grounds are romantic and part of the football heritage in this county, that doesn't mean we should keep them.

Blundell Park for me can't be improved drastically to make it viable long term. Surrounded three sides with terraced housing and a road/railway line the other. Any expansion (if that was possible) would cause even more traffic, parking and pedestrian issues in the surrounding area. There have been new grounds muted over a long period of time but none of come to fruition for various reasons. There have been good reasons why we should move and they still apply. As Andrew Pettit said at the forum any new ground would have to incorporate many  areas of use aside football to make it financially viable to run. It's not top of the shopping list for the club at the moment but long term we go nowhere staying at BP as a club, attracting players or new fans for that matter.

But where are we going to get the £40 Mil+ from to build the ground?

Quoted from 123614

But where are we going to get the £40 Mil+ from to build the ground?

Most of the aforementioned clubs managed it by the owners being smart…….

It’s a a good point - we’d need £40m-plus, no doubt, but others have managed.

Blundell Park isn’t good enough now, and it’s only gonna get worse. I suspect it will be the one issue that encourages JS and AP to get the hell out of dodge at some point, and that’s not a criticism of them, it’s just gonna be tough getting the funding.

Blundell Park should have been demolished in the 20th century, and we’re already 23 years into the next one now!

For what it’s worth, and I admit it, I have zero clue what the solution is.

Other clubs managed it in different financial times.

We can't currently afford a new ground. Building costs have shot up and anchor tenants have faded away.

Not much point speculating on what we need/want, when it isn't going to happen for the foreseeable.

Quoted from nealeardleyscrossing

I am not sure if you are just being negative because it is Lincoln or not, but the population has grown by 30k in 20 years in Lincoln and continues to grow, so I think crowds, whilst lower this year have remained stable and may well do so. I don't think it is just because we are not playing that well that crowds have dipped, the economic climate will play a part. Lincoln is also a growing city, that has significant investment and lower crime so is an attractive place currently. I personally think the football club have seen this and tried to grow with it - With some success, and changes to the ground/pitch and training facilities which put us on an even keel with a lot of L1 clubs.

As for investment and going down the same root as Scunthorpe, I think that must be a joke - we will be nothing like them, we might dip to L2 occasionally, and flirt with the championship at times, but we are in safe hands. Investment is in shares, and Clive appears to be careful with who invests in the club - The Jabara family seem to be in for the long haul, so whilst I see some on here wanting us to go pop, I  think we will be fine.

Football wise, losing all our forwards to injury has been a freak, with Tyler Walker now ruled out for the season we have had some awful luck, so to be 9th I think we have done well, albeit it is a dull watch scoring a goal a game. However, I much prefer watching Derby away Thursday, and Bolton at home Boxing day than watching some of L2's fixtures. No being salty here towards Grimsby, I think Artell is a decent appointment - Your owners are good too, but if you think you are going to sail past us, without Millions of wise investment I think you are mistaken. I actually wish you good fortune, I like Lincolnshire clubs being in the league and doing well, so long as were doing the best!

Anyway Merry Xmas!!

Not negative at all.

You can cut the numbers anyway you want really.  The population of NEL has decreased in the last 10 years yet attendances have increased considerably, that's without any real success. There's no two ways about it, the club are in the same position they were 19 years ago and no amount of promotions from the fifth tier will wash with anyone over the age of 25/30 as 'success'.  Anyone over that age grew up with Town more than capable of operating at the third and second tiers.  Rightly or wrongly that is their standard and benchmark, as ridiculous as it sounds in the modern game.  

Lincoln is clearly a growing city, as evidenced by the fact it's flipping impossible to get to anywhere at anything other than snail pace, but your attendance has only increased on the back of quite considerable success in terms of reaching a level very few of your fan base will have seen, certainly for a sustained period anyway.  Potentially I would say Town could get more fans in if both clubs were operating at the same level.  The key word is could.  Our ground wouldn't allow it and potential is worth jaff all without the ability to convert it into something.

Back to you and your investors though, the question for me is still why?  Why on earth would anyone pump money into a club for the sake of it.  You don't make money from football and the ramblings of your Sincil Bank friend just scream 'it'll be ok because they said it will'.    There has to be a reason they're involved.

Quoted Text

“Again, it was a pure football investment. So many of the investments we looked at were simply were ‘here’s a real estate opportunity around a stadium’, or ‘we’re trying to do a major enhancement around our venue’ and ‘we have a football club too but let’s talk about this real estate investment’.

“But we probably have enough real estate investments in the US. We probably don’t need to go to the UK for a real estate investment.

“We’re going to the UK because that’s where the best football in the world is made.

They're the words of Harvey Jabara, your US bankroller.  It's a football investment. So they feel the football club itself has something they can invest it and get a return on.  That means they eventually think someone is going to come in and give them a return on their investment.  I've seen a quote from Jabara where he says stuff about long-term, not flipping his investment etc.  If that's the case then he's not really investing is he, it's throwing money away with the knowledge that he isn't getting anything back on it...which is fine.  So why constantly use the term 'investment'.  

How much have his family invested in the club and then add a good percentage onto that for a return.  Do you think anyone is going to buy his shares for that value?  This probably is the negative bit but it just doesn't add up to me.  I will be as cautious when 1878 come to getting outside investment in here and ask the question of what is it going to cost us in the long run.  

I've not got any issue with football clubs getting investment.  I just can't for the life of me see the value of investing in a lower league football team to the tune of considerable millions.  If it's costing that amount of money to get you to the top half of League One, what's it going to cost to get to the Championship and then a position of stability (where you're then probably only remotely interesting to other investment groups)?

Look at the average attendances in that league - https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/championship/attendances

It's scary.  Even the second lowest averages are almost double what you're pulling in.  Just on ticket sales alone that's around £2.5mill the likes of Blackburn, Preston, Millwall have over you.  Those clubs that are in the middle of the attendance table you can double that amount.   Do these guys have £5million upwards a season just to be remotely competitive at this level?  

Even then, do you invest in Lincoln with a stadium that has limited potential or a club like Rotherham with a bigger ground, even a basketcase club like Reading with a huge stadium and far more potential?  I know where my money would go (if I was daft enough to expect a return on a football club).

Believe me. We'll be in exactly the same position when it comes to 1878 moving on.  We're not a good investment.  1878 themselves are probably shocked at how much of a money drain a football club is and we've generated bonus income in the last 24 months or so.  

It might be that Jabara and his family genuinely just want to throw money at it to give you guys the best chance of succeeding.  I hope that's the case.  But if they step away, who plugs the £3million a year sized hole?