Three up - Three Down?

Just wondering whether people's views have changed since we were in the National League when we were all in favour of this.

We never expected (mainly a little arrogantly that it would affect us) But are struggling to stay up.

Would it be worth supporting three up - three down even though it could affect us? It could make it easier to get back into the EFL if we go down.

In principle I still would (I think) but do we want to be that turkey voting for Christmas?

Quoted from MarinerRob

Just wondering whether people's views have changed since we were in the National League when we were all in favour of this.

We never expected (mainly a little arrogantly that it would affect us) But are struggling to stay up.

Would it be worth supporting three up - three down even though it could affect us? It could make it easier to get back into the EFL if we go down.

In principle I still would (I think) but do we want to be that turkey voting for Christmas?

Not relevant cos WE ARE STAYING UP

Quoted from MarinerRob

Just wondering whether people's views have changed since we were in the National League when we were all in favour of this.

We never expected (mainly a little arrogantly that it would affect us) But are struggling to stay up.

Would it be worth supporting three up - three down even though it could affect us? It could make it easier to get back into the EFL if we go down.

In principle I still would (I think) but do we want to be that turkey voting for Christmas?

I think we should go back to applications for re-election (now Scunthorpe are down there…)

IMHO the number of relegation/promotion places across the football pyramid from the Premiersh*t to the top non-league division should be the same. It seems crazy that you can have 4 teams relegated from Div 1 to Div 2 but only 2 from Div 2 to non- league. Make it three for every level - a Champion , a runner-up and a play-off.

Quoted from rancido

IMHO the number of relegation/promotion places across the football pyramid from the Premiersh*t to the top non-league division should be the same. It seems crazy that you can have 4 teams relegated from Div 1 to Div 2 but only 2 from Div 2 to non- league. Make it three for every level - a Champion , a runner-up and a play-off.

Problem with that is you would have to have 6 relegation spots in the National League

Should definitely be 3 up 3 down. No justification. Having 4 go up in our division is a hangover from the Division 3 North/South days as well, should be the same across the board. 4 down 2 up makes sense in a pyramid. 3 up 3 down across the board. The NL play off system is fairer as well with home advantage and 1 less game for the top 2.

No. Too many issues need resolving before 3 up/3 down can happen.

The National League governance needs to improve for starters. That’s at a league level and at a club level. Do we want another Macclesfield coming up with an owner who would not pass a F&PP test?

Where does the extra parachute payment money for an additional relegated team each season come from?

Personally I think it should only happen when the NL is incorporated into the EFL as League 3.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

No. Too many issues need resolving before 3 up/3 down can happen.

The National League governance needs to improve for starters. That’s at a league level and at a club level. Do we want another Macclesfield coming up with an owner who would not pass a F&PP test?

Where does the extra parachute payment money for an additional relegated team each season come from?

Personally I think it should only happen when the NL is incorporated into the EFL as League 3.

I certainly think the top level of Non-League should be incorporated into the Football League. Most of the teams at that level are predominantly full- time professional with a high percentage of ex FL teams anyway. This would return the Football League back to the original structure of 92 teams.

Quoted from MarinerRob

Just wondering whether people's views have changed since we were in the National League when we were all in favour of this.

We never expected (mainly a little arrogantly that it would affect us) But are struggling to stay up.

Would it be worth supporting three up - three down even though it could affect us? It could make it easier to get back into the EFL if we go down.

In principle I still would (I think) but do we want to be that turkey voting for Christmas?

Relegation promotion equality throughout should be the standard expected, fck knows the FA fly the equality flag on every other aspect of the game so why not this?

I can see no justification for four up and down between L1 and L2
Similarly 3 up and down between L2 and National leage should be introduced with conditions and not straight away.

I'm doubtful it will happen now the NL has 'emptied out ' of the more well financed clubs , it's going to start looking very much a standard none league over the next couple of years i suspect . One minnow will make it up this season .

To put it in perspective only 5 NL clubs are averaging over 3k gates and one of those will be gone (Chesterfield ) it only then gives you Oldham , Hartlepool  Southend and York- who are well backed , who you would think could hold their own in the league.

Being objective, I have always been in favour of 3 up and 3 down. The log-jam of ex-League teams in NL can never be argued as being fair.

More jeopardy, but a 50% better chance of getting promoted.  

Lets hope we don't have to think about it again.

Can I answer the question in a couple of weeks..

Could the third down be based on financial responsibility. About time some punishment comes from unsustainable/unsuitable spending.

I don't know how you enforce that, but something is needed to whip the Colchester types into sense.

No. The national league only promotes 2 from each of its north and south divisions so makes more sense to only have 2 from it's senior division too. There is usually a bigger difference I think in quality between NL and L2 than we have seen in recent years, the more typical difference might be returning now the bigger clubs have been cleared out. The EFL is a different entity to NL so I don't think it's automatic that it should be 3 promotion places necessarily. There has been a gradual reducing of the gap between the two entities and so maybe it should change, but I'm not 100% convinced of it yet.

I think there is less difference between L1 and L2 than between championship and L1 or premiership and championship, so in that respect more promotion spots between L2 and L1 makes sense.

Ask me in a couple of weeks and I might give a different though.

I’d just have the one team going down out of league 2, starting from today

Quoted from rancido

I certainly think the top level of Non-League should be incorporated into the Football League. Most of the teams at that level are predominantly full- time professional with a high percentage of ex FL teams anyway. This would return the Football League back to the original structure of 92 teams.

It would be 96 but I agree with you!

I’ve always thought 3 up 3 down would make sense in the football league so prem to L2, so I’d change that.
Even when we were there I believed the National league should be 2 up, for me non league should be harder to get out of and drop into, otherwise there is no separation of league/non league.

It’s so easy to be swayed by your current circumstances. I was all for it , I’m not anymore 😬

Quoted from Mappers

I'm doubtful it will happen now the NL has 'emptied out ' of the more well financed clubs , it's going to start looking very much a standard none league over the next couple of years i suspect . One minnow will make it up this season .

To put it in perspective only 5 NL clubs are averaging over 3k gates and one of those will be gone (Chesterfield ) it only then gives you Oldham , Hartlepool  Southend and York- who are well backed , who you would think could hold their own in the league.

Yeah and all of those 4 are traditional ex league clubs .
It’s horrible when you’re down there but you only have to look at the state of Harrogates ground and their lack of support to see clubs like that offer little value to the rest of the league.

Quoted from grimps

But don't you think that as the Premiersh*t gets more expensive and almost "elitist" then there will be a greater interest for locals to support these "lesser or smaller" clubs? Once you make it a more realistic chance to attain Football League status then these clubs can structure themselves accordingly and aspire to get promoted. Look at the FL clubs in Div 1 and 2 that don't attract large gates, ( Barrow, Accrington, Morecambe, Harrogate )yet still remain competitive and relatively successful.

Quoted from rancido

But don't you think that as the Premiersh*t gets more expensive and almost "elitist" then there will be a greater interest for locals to support these "lesser or smaller" clubs? Once you make it a more realistic chance to attain Football League status then these clubs can structure themselves accordingly and aspire to get promoted. Look at the FL clubs in Div 1 and 2 that don't attract large gates, ( Barrow, Accrington, Morecambe, Harrogate )yet still remain competitive and relatively successful.

Doubtful tbh they might do well bankrolled - Harrogate . The others have been well run and Barrow have the USP of their training ground location . But they have all lost money in recent years -- both Morecambe & Accrington have started a cost cutting exercise to bring them down to a break even point - let's see how they do next season on tiny gates and an even smaller budget ; I am guessing it probably won't be so well .

Both Morecambe & Accrington got to league 1 and were lucky to ever break  4k even with a decent level of success so I don't see where all the fans will come from when they revert to break even and probably do worse .

We need to start punching at our weight next season at least imo financially which would be top 12 you would have thought . One bad season can be forgiven as a mistake but 2 would be something more than that .Need to get those 3 or 4 points asap.

I'd have three up / three down definitely.

But instead of the National League followed by North and South I'd have three parallel divisions below League Two....National League North / South and Midlands. Reducing travel costs for smaller clubs at that level. Just one promotion place from each of those three divisions

Quoted from Mappers

Doubtful tbh they might do well bankrolled - Harrogate . The others have been well run and Barrow have the USP of their training ground location . But they have all lost money in recent years -- both Morecambe & Accrington have started a cost cutting exercise to bring them down to a break even point - let's see how they do next season on tiny gates and an even smaller budget ; I am guessing it probably won't be so well .

Both Morecambe & Accrington got to league 1 and were lucky to ever break  4k even with a decent level of success so I don't see where all the fans will come from when they revert to break even and probably do worse .

We need to start punching at our weight next season at least imo financially which would be top 12 you would have thought . One bad season can be forgiven as a mistake but 2 would be something more than that .Need to get those 3 or 4 points asap.

How many clubs in the FL and Premiersh*t aren't " bankrolled" to one degree or another?
The whole FL needs restructuring and brought into the 21st Century especially since the Premiersh*t broke away. Like I mentioned earlier ,bring it back up to the format of 4 divisions of 23 teams each by including the top level non- league teams. Give each team an equal vote in all league decisions - I believe there still exists they crazy situation where only the Championship clubs have a vote each and Leagues 1 and 2 have so many votes between them. Introduce an equal distribution of incoming wealth from Premiersh*t contributions, as opposed to different amounts for different league levels.

Quoted from rancido

How many clubs in the FL and Premiersh*t aren't " bankrolled" to one degree or another?
The whole FL needs restructuring and brought into the 21st Century especially since the Premiersh*t broke away. Like I mentioned earlier ,bring it back up to the format of 4 divisions of 23 teams each by including the top level non- league teams. Give each team an equal vote in all league decisions - I believe there still exists they crazy situation where only the Championship clubs have a vote each and Leagues 1 and 2 have so many votes between them. Introduce an equal distribution of incoming wealth from Premiersh*t contributions, as opposed to different amounts for different league levels.

I agree but the whole debate is a lot more nuanced than that .

There is a massive difference from a Stockport , Wrexham or dare I say it even Lincoln - who all probably naturally have the capability to operate at league 1 level in terms of gates and income but owners/investors are literally gifting them money to help speed up the process somewhat - whether that's right in itself ; that clubs have to / can spend over what their income is , is another question.

It's more the likes of FGR ,Crawley ,  Salford , Harrogate etc who will in probability never be able to naturally be a sustainable or small loss making operation , have no capability of growth in terms of fanbase and eventually when the money dries up just revert to their natural level or worse .

Then there are the clubs that have been 'tucked up ' by bad owners who just leverage loads of debt against the clubs  - again another debate but that's more a regulatory issue that needs to be stamped out or more clubs will end up in a mess living beyond their means .

Even though I have my dislike for Fenty he did run a tight ship financially and I make a guess that over his tenure we would be high up in terms of profit/loss in that period but it didn't give us any sort of advantage ; whether that was down to his inept management of the club or a combination of that and trying to play by the rules (being tight ) is for others to make their mind up . But in my mind playing fair doesn't help in a game that's gone far from that . Let's hope the current custodians make a better go of it , and the game changes during their reign .

I was in favour of 3 up and 3 down when in there, and I still am.

NL relegation shouldn't be a death sentence for a club. It's supposed to be about rehabilitation, and if you get 2 clubs throwing money at it, you've got no chance of going up while being well run. I think it would help good clubs go up, and weaker league 2 clubs go down, sort their excrement out before returning. Many clubs there are professional so there is no reason to not allow it. It will not weaken league 2. Play-offs are a lottery and 2 well run clubs should justify a promotion on top of that.

Next season, we should hopefully be nowhere near the bottom, so it shouldn't matter anyway. If we want to stay up, we have to justify our position there.

Oh, and agree on all the comments regarding the stupid 4 up and 4 down from L1. Change it to 3.

It should be 3 up - thank god it’s not